I was at the ICG table at the Summer ANA when this Jefferson nickel showed everyone a framed Jefferson nickel he had purchased from Bill Fivaz. I don't know the man's name but he just published a book on Jefferson Nickel varieties. It would make sense to contact him and let him see the coin. I'll bet he will be at the Summer FUN show in July. Anyone know who I'm writing about?
I would recommend getting the piece microphotographed now, while it is still raw, and then sending it to our hosts for a determination as to whether or not it has been altered after being struck. If they can determine that it has not been altered, then these steps must have been on the die.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Hey ya'll. Talked to the dealer I obtained this piece from. He had no information on the set that contained the coin. He was very busy and I'm uncertain if he really gave it much attention. Next month I will take the book with me and see if that might help jar his memory.
I have a DinoLight and will be taking enlargement photos ASAP.
That is not the kind of set/coin a dealer would remember, but I suppose it is worth a try.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Missed this thread till now...Way Cool and I thinks it's Extra Cool that all these real experts on the board are helping out so much! Looking forward to your coin one day being authenticated by our host with your CU forum username on the Pedigree
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I'm headed to the B&M tomorrow morning. They have a whole box of 1938-1940 2X2's. You can bet I'll be looking at every '38-S. Heck, I'll be looking at every '38 period.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Insider2 - I think you'd talking about
Richard Bousquet, of Jacksonville, Fla.
He's published three Editions of the
"Thomas Jefferson Nickels -Die Varieties & Minting Errors"
Great book, with TONS of info on Jefferson Nickels.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@Insider2 said:
I was at the ICG table at the Summer ANA when this Jefferson nickel showed everyone a framed Jefferson nickel he had purchased from Bill Fivaz. I don't know the man's name but he just published a book on Jefferson Nickel varieties. It would make sense to contact him and let him see the coin. I'll bet he will be at the Summer FUN show in July. Anyone know who I'm writing about?
Ok crew, nickeljones and I have some work to do! Below are a couple new photos. I can't claim the best, but gives you a closer look at the step details and something new, the edge view. I have not formulated my thoughts on the rim details.
The interest and opinions have been super helpful, but we are still falling short of a consensus opinion. You all know which way nickeljones and I want this to go!!! We are trying to coordinate a trip up to Central States to get this presented to more experts.
@BigDowgie said:
Ok crew, nickeljones and I have some work to do! Below are a couple new photos. I can't claim the best, but gives you a closer look at the step details and something new, the edge view. I have not formulated my thoughts on the rim details.
The interest and opinions have been super helpful, but we are still falling short of a consensus opinion. You all know which way nickeljones and I want this to go!!! We are trying to coordinate a trip up to Central States to get this presented to more experts.
Based on that photo of the steps, I would say that non-standard steps were on the die when this coin was struck, and that they were put there by a Mint employee. How, when and where I do not know, but I firmly believe that this variety was Mint made.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I'd place the challenge to you and any of your kindred craftsmen to replicate this intricate piece of art. We'll come up with some award for that craftsman. We'll place nice side-by-side pictures of both and the results will be decided by vote on the Forum. Let the games begin! Takers?
I am certainly not an expert but I know my eyes and I have viewed many thousands of nickels.
I really wish I could hold and examine this.
I agree with @CaptHenway that this is from the mint this way.
Anyone versed in searching nickels recognizes the weakness in the central Steps area. Whether grease or inadequate pressure, the center of the steps is notoriously weak.
The far right pillar has the slanted look and the second to left pillar mush goes into the weakness of the steps.
The weakness in these photos would be very difficult to replicate if someone has post mint altered this coin.
The depth and color of the steps and the way they turn to mush, I would bet a lot that it came from the mint.
Whether an employee was fooling around, this is a real type, or some sort of planchet chatter during the striking process, I remain convinced this coin left the mint with these unique steps.
@BigDowgie said:
A little fuzzy, but you get the picture!
@BigDowgie said:
Ok crew, nickeljones and I have some work to do! Below are a couple new photos. I can't claim the best, but gives you a closer look at the step details and something new, the edge view. I have not formulated my thoughts on the rim details.
The interest and opinions have been super helpful, but we are still falling short of a consensus opinion. You all know which way nickeljones and I want this to go!!! We are trying to coordinate a trip up to Central States to get this presented to more experts.
Based on that photo of the steps, I would say that non-standard steps were on the die when this coin was struck, and that they were put there by a Mint employee. How, when and where I do not know, but I firmly believe that this variety was Mint made.
TD
It is reassuring that when I say "I am certainly not an expert..." someone disagrees with that. See disagree rating below. Yayyy thank you for the vote of confidence!
Ok fellow member, I won't go where you are going. My last word on this topic is, talk is cheap! Make one that fools the Forum and I'll make it worth your while.
The steps could not have been pressed that deeply without obvious damage to the obverse.
So that argument is moot.
Trying to work on a short list of persons to get with, so they can have a hands on look. I will be at the Dalton Ga. Show later this month, if any of Ya'll want a closer look.
I will also have it on display at the Derby City Coin Club show this Saturday, April 8th. In Louisville KY. At Holy Family Catholic Church Gymnasium. 3926 Popular Level Rd. Interstate 264, exit 14. north at Poplar Level.
@nickelJones
If you make it to California, and the LA-Santa Barbara areas, you can stay for a visit with me and the Fam for free, in your own room. Standing invitation.
I would love to see the coin but cannot fly out with current schedule!
Take a few photos of the date and letters of the legend at a little less magnification as the seeps. I wish to see the surface of the coin, its relief, and the shape of the letters.
Send the coin to NGC (Rick Montgomery) or ICG (Skip Fazzari). I respect Dr Wiles but I should want one of those two authenticators to examine the coin.
The coin is making its way back to nickeljones, but here is a picture of EPLURIBUS for a sample of how nicely struck this coin is. There are even the letter re-engraving enhancements on the bottom serifs that are commonly found on the 1938-S's.
We can postulate until the bovines come home about this. Actually enjoying the discussions. Anyone that has any ideas about this piece, please post them. Pro or con.
Someone asked, of a post I made, "do I really believe that? "
I posted it. If my word, my honor, is in doubt, then there is nothing I can say to you. You obviously think I would lie. Was that not your claim? If I am mistaken then I apologize for the assumption. I only elaborate about this because in numismatic endeavors, a man not trusted, true to his words, will soon be a lonely person.
That is an awesome find nickelJones- hope you get some good news from other experts. I've checked all my '38-S's to no avail, and will keep an eye out for this, as many more collectors will be too. Would be cool if another shakes loose!
@BigDowgie said:
The coin is making its way back to nickeljones, but here is a picture of EPLURIBUS for a sample of how nicely struck this coin is. There are even the letter re-engraving enhancements on the bottom serifs that are commonly found on the 1938-S's.
This is good to know. Everybody look to see if you can find a specimen of a coin with these exact enhancements WITHOUT the strange steps. Might prove something one way or the other.
Possibilities still open:
1. Coin was altered after it left the San Francisco Mint.
2. Die was altered late in its die life by some SF Mint worker who wondered why the dang steps on this new-fangled Jefferson design weren't striking up right even after he cranked the striking pressure up to 11, commensurate with the great strike on the rest of the coin. After a short press run he said "Aw, the heck with it!" and went and got a new die pair.
3. Some mysterious design experiment at the Philadelphia Mint.
4. ?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@nickelJones
If you make it to California, and the LA-Santa Barbara areas, you can stay for a visit with me and the Fam for free, in your own room. Standing invitation.
I would love to see the coin but cannot fly out with current schedule!
Thank you very much for your generous offer. I am not expecting to be west anytime soon, but if that changes, I will be glad to get with you. Always best if you have a "local" show you around.
I will be taking more pics and also a video, if I can get the focus to bring up the details.
Is there a place/site to post high resolution pictures?
And a short note to all. Every possible explanation of the details on the reverse will be considered. I don't have to think of it, for it to be a good idea.
Also, BigDowgie and I have the advantage of having a hands on look. I will try to make it available to others as often as possible. So I will post the shows that the coin will present.
I have some concerns about the left half of the steps.
the left straight line shows a shadow line about 20% as wide as the outside railing. I see this as an overstrike or double strike over an existing feature.
the bottom 'step' has very thin peeling like a lamination of a very thin sliver of nickel which could occur with an overstrike,
Unless something odd is seen with the rest of the coin, I am leaning toward a normal 38-s that has been altered be a punch of some sort.
Looks somehow punched to me.. I see what appears to be metal movement post-strike. Maybe someone made a tool, it didn't work, they scrapped it, and that's why there is only this one example.
the left straight line shows a shadow line about 20% as wide as the outside railing. I see this as an overstrike or double strike over an existing feature.
the bottom 'step' has very thin peeling like a lamination of a very thin sliver of nickel which could occur with an overstrike,
Unless something odd is seen with the rest of the coin, I am leaning toward a normal 38-s that has been altered be a punch of some sort.
I agree with this and will add that it looks like the top edge has been pushed upwards as well.
@davewesen said:
I have some concerns about the left half of the steps.
the left straight line shows a shadow line about 20% as wide as the outside railing. I see this as an overstrike or double strike over an existing feature.
the bottom 'step' has very thin peeling like a lamination of a very thin sliver of nickel which could occur with an overstrike,
Unless something odd is seen with the rest of the coin, I am leaning toward a normal 38-s that has been altered be a punch of some sort.
I thought the EXACT thing when I saw the new closeup pics.
@davewesen said:
I have some concerns about the left half of the steps.
the left straight line shows a shadow line about 20% as wide as the outside railing. I see this as an overstrike or double strike over an existing feature.
the bottom 'step' has very thin peeling like a lamination of a very thin sliver of nickel which could occur with an overstrike,
Unless something odd is seen with the rest of the coin, I am leaning toward a normal 38-s that has been altered be a punch of some sort.
I thought the EXACT thing when I saw the new closeup pics.
I'll throw in the observation that the center portion of the steps is a lower relief than the sides, that is where metal did not flow into the design on the dies. If a light touch was used, those areas would not show evidence of the repunching.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I do have questions concerning these areas, but cannot come close to the conclusion of overstrike, double strike or punch of some sort. If you review the initial pictures posted and E PLURIBUS posted later, there would be other obvious evidence of any one of these conclusions.
@BigDowgie said:
I do have questions concerning these areas, but cannot come close to the conclusion of overstrike, double strike or punch of some sort. If you review the initial pictures posted and E PLURIBUS posted later, there would be other obvious evidence of any one of these conclusions.
I was not referring to a mint made overstrike of the entire coin - I was suggesting as a possibility someone made a 1x6 mm punch that was just pressed on the step area. The rest of the coin would look like a normal 1938-S because it is. Nickel is very hard but that small of an area would not distort the rest of the coin. If this is a possibilitiy, they did not realize the 1938 and many 1939 had different steps. Heck, I guess it could have been someone in the mint shop testing new ideas for the reverse change that occurred in 1939. There are only 4 major lines on this coin, where the change made 5 lines.
If you think this is a crazy idea, take a feeler gauge and press a 0.015" into the field and see what you get.
@davewesen said:
I have some concerns about the left half of the steps.
the left straight line shows a shadow line about 20% as wide as the outside railing. I see this as an overstrike or double strike over an existing feature.
the bottom 'step' has very thin peeling like a lamination of a very thin sliver of nickel which could occur with an overstrike,
Unless something odd is seen with the rest of the coin, I am leaning toward a normal 38-s that has been altered be a punch of some sort.
I saw that and questioned it too. However, note that the faint lines on the steps continue into the brighter area.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I still wonder, if you were going to carve steps into a Jefferson nickel to practice or demonstrate your precision, why you would only carve the left and right sides of the steps and leave the weakly-struck center alone.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@cmerlo1 said:
I still wonder, if you were going to carve steps into a Jefferson nickel to practice or demonstrate your precision, why you would only carve the left and right sides of the steps and leave the weakly-struck center alone.
I think it is safe to say that the new step pattern was not "carved" line by line upon the face of the already struck coin. The delicate fade outs are just too perfect.
I think that some people are saying that a rectangular steel punch, similar to the end of a large flathead screwdriver, with a design tooled into the end of the punch may have been impressed into the coin in the step area to give it new, false steps. If the contour of the natural coin in this area was a shallow valley, then the punch would only have impressed the sides of the valley and not the deepest part of the valley in the center.
At this stage I will consider this as a possible explanation. However, I see no evidence of the original six steps under the four mystery steps. I am inclined to believe that some of the six steps would have survived the "overstepping" process, but as I have never seen "overstepping" done I have no basis to form an opinion one way or the other.
In my opinion it remains a mystery, neither proven nor disproven. It can be proven by the discovery of a second specimen, if one exists. It can be disproven by the discovery of a second coin from the same die in the same die state WITHOUT the mystery steps.
Keep looking.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@cmerlo1 said:
I still wonder, if you were going to carve steps into a Jefferson nickel to practice or demonstrate your precision, why you would only carve the left and right sides of the steps and leave the weakly-struck center alone.
I think it is safe to say that the new step pattern was not "carved" line by line upon the face of the already struck coin. The delicate fade outs are just too perfect.
I think that some people are saying that a rectangular steel punch, similar to the end of a large flathead screwdriver, with a design tooled into the end of the punch may have been impressed into the coin in the step area to give it new, false steps. If the contour of the natural coin in this area was a shallow valley, then the punch would only have impressed the sides of the valley and not the deepest part of the valley in the center.
At this stage I will consider this as a possible explanation. However, I see no evidence of the original six steps under the four mystery steps. I am inclined to believe that some of the six steps would have survived the "overstepping" process, but as I have never seen "overstepping" done I have no basis to form an opinion one way or the other.
In my opinion it remains a mystery, neither proven nor disproven. It can be proven by the discovery of a second specimen, if one exists. It can be disproven by the discovery of a second coin from the same die in the same die state WITHOUT the mystery steps.
Keep looking.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
And that would be experts in numismatics.
The field being numismatics.
Hey everyone. The coin and DinoLite will be at Derby City Coin Club Show Saturday the 8th of April at Holy Family Gymnasium 3926 Poplar Level Rd Louisville KY. See ya'll there
If one wished to assemble a group of PhD's to make a federal case of it, it would take more than just nickel collecting specialists and some technology types that specialize in very narrow and obscure fields.
I do believe some high tech science could be applied and determine IF there has been significant time between any initial and much later strikes.
Do you truly believe you can isotope test (or other scientific test) if any time difference between strikes? if there was in fact 2 strikes and not just an altered die and all at once 1 strike resulting in nickel seen?
LMC steps also do this a tiny slip gets your steps doubled and half as thick. a bit more movement and the steps merge together twice as thick half as many.
Comments
I was at the ICG table at the Summer ANA when this Jefferson nickel showed everyone a framed Jefferson nickel he had purchased from Bill Fivaz. I don't know the man's name but he just published a book on Jefferson Nickel varieties. It would make sense to contact him and let him see the coin. I'll bet he will be at the Summer FUN show in July. Anyone know who I'm writing about?
I would recommend getting the piece microphotographed now, while it is still raw, and then sending it to our hosts for a determination as to whether or not it has been altered after being struck. If they can determine that it has not been altered, then these steps must have been on the die.
Hey ya'll. Talked to the dealer I obtained this piece from. He had no information on the set that contained the coin. He was very busy and I'm uncertain if he really gave it much attention. Next month I will take the book with me and see if that might help jar his memory.
I have a DinoLight and will be taking enlargement photos ASAP.
That is not the kind of set/coin a dealer would remember, but I suppose it is worth a try.
Missed this thread till now...Way Cool and I thinks it's Extra Cool that all these real experts on the board are helping out so much! Looking forward to your coin one day being authenticated by our host with your CU forum username on the Pedigree
Is the coin being microphotographed?
I'm headed to the B&M tomorrow morning. They have a whole box of 1938-1940 2X2's. You can bet I'll be looking at every '38-S. Heck, I'll be looking at every '38 period.
Insider2 - I think you'd talking about
Richard Bousquet, of Jacksonville, Fla.
He's published three Editions of the
"Thomas Jefferson Nickels -Die Varieties & Minting Errors"
Great book, with TONS of info on Jefferson Nickels.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Richard Bousquet?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Mr. Bousquet would make a good person to examine it.
Ok crew, nickeljones and I have some work to do! Below are a couple new photos. I can't claim the best, but gives you a closer look at the step details and something new, the edge view. I have not formulated my thoughts on the rim details.
The interest and opinions have been super helpful, but we are still falling short of a consensus opinion. You all know which way nickeljones and I want this to go!!! We are trying to coordinate a trip up to Central States to get this presented to more experts.
Based on that photo of the steps, I would say that non-standard steps were on the die when this coin was struck, and that they were put there by a Mint employee. How, when and where I do not know, but I firmly believe that this variety was Mint made.
TD
Got a similar shot of the other end of the steps?
A little fuzzy, but you get the picture!
I'd place the challenge to you and any of your kindred craftsmen to replicate this intricate piece of art. We'll come up with some award for that craftsman. We'll place nice side-by-side pictures of both and the results will be decided by vote on the Forum. Let the games begin! Takers?
I am certainly not an expert but I know my eyes and I have viewed many thousands of nickels.
I really wish I could hold and examine this.
I agree with @CaptHenway that this is from the mint this way.
Anyone versed in searching nickels recognizes the weakness in the central Steps area. Whether grease or inadequate pressure, the center of the steps is notoriously weak.
The far right pillar has the slanted look and the second to left pillar mush goes into the weakness of the steps.
The weakness in these photos would be very difficult to replicate if someone has post mint altered this coin.
The depth and color of the steps and the way they turn to mush, I would bet a lot that it came from the mint.
Whether an employee was fooling around, this is a real type, or some sort of planchet chatter during the striking process, I remain convinced this coin left the mint with these unique steps.
It is reassuring that when I say "I am certainly not an expert..." someone disagrees with that. See disagree rating below. Yayyy
thank you for the vote of confidence!
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Ok fellow member, I won't go where you are going. My last word on this topic is, talk is cheap! Make one that fools the Forum and I'll make it worth your while.
Wow.
The steps could not have been pressed that deeply without obvious damage to the obverse.
So that argument is moot.
Trying to work on a short list of persons to get with, so they can have a hands on look. I will be at the Dalton Ga. Show later this month, if any of Ya'll want a closer look.
I will also have it on display at the Derby City Coin Club show this Saturday, April 8th. In Louisville KY. At Holy Family Catholic Church Gymnasium. 3926 Popular Level Rd. Interstate 264, exit 14. north at Poplar Level.
@nickelJones
If you make it to California, and the LA-Santa Barbara areas, you can stay for a visit with me and the Fam for free, in your own room. Standing invitation.
I would love to see the coin but cannot fly out with current schedule!
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I said it. Dr Wiles said it as well. How did this remain unknown for 78 years?
Don't know. How did someone pick up the original design galvanos for the standing liberty quarter at a yard sale for a few dollars? Again, Don't know.
I will be attempting to talk further with the dealer the set was purchased from. Hoping to get more information from him.
Here is what I recommend:
The coin is making its way back to nickeljones, but here is a picture of EPLURIBUS for a sample of how nicely struck this coin is. There are even the letter re-engraving enhancements on the bottom serifs that are commonly found on the 1938-S's.
Thanks insider 2 for the input. Appreciate it.
We can postulate until the bovines come home about this. Actually enjoying the discussions. Anyone that has any ideas about this piece, please post them. Pro or con.
Someone asked, of a post I made, "do I really believe that? "
I posted it. If my word, my honor, is in doubt, then there is nothing I can say to you. You obviously think I would lie. Was that not your claim? If I am mistaken then I apologize for the assumption. I only elaborate about this because in numismatic endeavors, a man not trusted, true to his words, will soon be a lonely person.
I like my friends. I want to keep them.
That is an awesome find nickelJones- hope you get some good news from other experts. I've checked all my '38-S's to no avail, and will keep an eye out for this, as many more collectors will be too. Would be cool if another shakes loose!
This is good to know. Everybody look to see if you can find a specimen of a coin with these exact enhancements WITHOUT the strange steps. Might prove something one way or the other.
Possibilities still open:
1. Coin was altered after it left the San Francisco Mint.
2. Die was altered late in its die life by some SF Mint worker who wondered why the dang steps on this new-fangled Jefferson design weren't striking up right even after he cranked the striking pressure up to 11, commensurate with the great strike on the rest of the coin. After a short press run he said "Aw, the heck with it!" and went and got a new die pair.
3. Some mysterious design experiment at the Philadelphia Mint.
4. ?
I like number 2.
Looks like the collar that wa> @Aspie_Rocco said:
Thank you very much for your generous offer. I am not expecting to be west anytime soon, but if that changes, I will be glad to get with you. Always best if you have a "local" show you around.
I will be taking more pics and also a video, if I can get the focus to bring up the details.
Is there a place/site to post high resolution pictures?
And a short note to all. Every possible explanation of the details on the reverse will be considered. I don't have to think of it, for it to be a good idea.
Also, BigDowgie and I have the advantage of having a hands on look. I will try to make it available to others as often as possible. So I will post the shows that the coin will present.
More to come soon
I
I have some concerns about the left half of the steps.
the left straight line shows a shadow line about 20% as wide as the outside railing. I see this as an overstrike or double strike over an existing feature.
the bottom 'step' has very thin peeling like a lamination of a very thin sliver of nickel which could occur with an overstrike,
Unless something odd is seen with the rest of the coin, I am leaning toward a normal 38-s that has been altered be a punch of some sort.
Looks somehow punched to me.. I see what appears to be metal movement post-strike. Maybe someone made a tool, it didn't work, they scrapped it, and that's why there is only this one example.
I agree with this and will add that it looks like the top edge has been pushed upwards as well.
Collector, occasional seller
I thought the EXACT thing when I saw the new closeup pics.
I'll throw in the observation that the center portion of the steps is a lower relief than the sides, that is where metal did not flow into the design on the dies. If a light touch was used, those areas would not show evidence of the repunching.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I do have questions concerning these areas, but cannot come close to the conclusion of overstrike, double strike or punch of some sort. If you review the initial pictures posted and E PLURIBUS posted later, there would be other obvious evidence of any one of these conclusions.
Can't explain it bro, that's why nickeljones and I are trying to find some experts and not amateurs.
I was not referring to a mint made overstrike of the entire coin - I was suggesting as a possibility someone made a 1x6 mm punch that was just pressed on the step area. The rest of the coin would look like a normal 1938-S because it is. Nickel is very hard but that small of an area would not distort the rest of the coin. If this is a possibilitiy, they did not realize the 1938 and many 1939 had different steps. Heck, I guess it could have been someone in the mint shop testing new ideas for the reverse change that occurred in 1939. There are only 4 major lines on this coin, where the change made 5 lines.
If you think this is a crazy idea, take a feeler gauge and press a 0.015" into the field and see what you get.
I saw that and questioned it too. However, note that the faint lines on the steps continue into the brighter area.
I still wonder, if you were going to carve steps into a Jefferson nickel to practice or demonstrate your precision, why you would only carve the left and right sides of the steps and leave the weakly-struck center alone.
I think it is safe to say that the new step pattern was not "carved" line by line upon the face of the already struck coin. The delicate fade outs are just too perfect.
I think that some people are saying that a rectangular steel punch, similar to the end of a large flathead screwdriver, with a design tooled into the end of the punch may have been impressed into the coin in the step area to give it new, false steps. If the contour of the natural coin in this area was a shallow valley, then the punch would only have impressed the sides of the valley and not the deepest part of the valley in the center.
At this stage I will consider this as a possible explanation. However, I see no evidence of the original six steps under the four mystery steps. I am inclined to believe that some of the six steps would have survived the "overstepping" process, but as I have never seen "overstepping" done I have no basis to form an opinion one way or the other.
In my opinion it remains a mystery, neither proven nor disproven. It can be proven by the discovery of a second specimen, if one exists. It can be disproven by the discovery of a second coin from the same die in the same die state WITHOUT the mystery steps.
Keep looking.
TD
I think it is safe to say that the new step pattern was not "carved" line by line upon the face of the already struck coin. The delicate fade outs are just too perfect.
I think that some people are saying that a rectangular steel punch, similar to the end of a large flathead screwdriver, with a design tooled into the end of the punch may have been impressed into the coin in the step area to give it new, false steps. If the contour of the natural coin in this area was a shallow valley, then the punch would only have impressed the sides of the valley and not the deepest part of the valley in the center.
At this stage I will consider this as a possible explanation. However, I see no evidence of the original six steps under the four mystery steps. I am inclined to believe that some of the six steps would have survived the "overstepping" process, but as I have never seen "overstepping" done I have no basis to form an opinion one way or the other.
In my opinion it remains a mystery, neither proven nor disproven. It can be proven by the discovery of a second specimen, if one exists. It can be disproven by the discovery of a second coin from the same die in the same die state WITHOUT the mystery steps.
Keep looking.
TD
You know what they say about opinions? Yeah, everyone's got one. Let the experts see the coin. I'm on the fence.
double post.......
triple post..............this software was an upgrade?
Shag, I'm thinking more like user error! Just my uninformed opinion, which we try to stay away from in this Forum!
Getting double posts today.
I would add , "suspected additional strike".
And that would be experts in numismatics.
The field being numismatics.
Hey everyone. The coin and DinoLite will be at Derby City Coin Club Show Saturday the 8th of April at Holy Family Gymnasium 3926 Poplar Level Rd Louisville KY. See ya'll there
Do you truly believe you can isotope test (or other scientific test) if any time difference between strikes? if there was in fact 2 strikes and not just an altered die and all at once 1 strike resulting in nickel seen?
This is one odd coin, by anyone's standards. It will face a lot of scrutiny.
May you be cursed to live in interesting times.
the die with evenly spaced steps moved slightly north between strikes. maybe twice.
step xxxxxxxx xxxxxx
step strike 2 xxxxxxxxxx
step 3rd str. xxxxxxxxx
step xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx
step strike 2 xxxxxxxxx
step 3 xxxxxxxxx x
step xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx
step xxxxxxxxx xxxx
step 3 xxxxxxxxx xxx
step xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
step xxxxxxxxxxxxx
sttep3 xxxxxxxxxxxxx
LMC steps also do this a tiny slip gets your steps doubled and half as thick. a bit more movement and the steps merge together twice as thick half as many.