@georgiacop50 said:
Not sure what you mean Leo... 8-9 sections??
@georgiacop50 said:
Not sure what you mean Leo... 8-9 sections??
I believe that he is referring to the fact that each of the three major thick steps has lighter lines that run the length of those steps (or at least the parts that are struck up), giving the appearance of 8 or 9 or maybe more thin steps overall. My guess is that only the major thick steps are intended to be counted as steps, and the rest is just detailing.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If someone can change the .png file to a .jps file and post that picture than I'll be able to circle those areas on the regular 38S steps, top pic, where I can see split steps under the 1st and 4th pillar and there are 3 segments of the wavy steps under the 2nd and 3rd pillars that show additional splits in that area of the wavy steps. Again, what I'm saying, I can see segments possibly of the mystery steps beneath the wavy steps. In other words, the mystery steps may have been a prelude to the wavy steps, not the straight steps.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I did not know that the steps themselves were not built until 1926!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Here is a picture of Franklin Roosevelt speaking from the top of the (1926-built) steps in 1936, before the steps were reconstructed in 1938. Notice the horizontal lines typical of brickwork. The faint lines visible on the steps on the mystery coin MAY have been an attempt to simulate this horizontal pattern.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I like what you're posting there captain. There are a couple of pictures depicting the earthen ramp on the Monticello. I almost want to do this to the front of my house if it weren't for all those critters that would come with it.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Let me say, it's impossible to do an accurate overlay because the lighting is from different angles, can't line up. And for those suggesting ICG or someone might know, were any of them around in 1938......inside the mint facility? Outside of US Mint records, the rest would be pure speculation, no-one is going to know except some well-kept records.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Mr Fivaz has seen the coin. He informed me that there was one major flaw with the piece. And that is the fact that he doesn't own it. Just a great guy to talk with. He thanked me for showing him the coin.
I believe that the die was used and pulled for re-working at some point. Don't forget that this die is in San Francisco, and that Mint was totally dependent on Philadelphia for dies. It was during the re-working that some employee strengthened some elements (the steps, lettering, etc.), and put the die back into service.
Who knows how long of a run this die had during its' second wind. It could have only seen limited use before it was retired.
And yes.........there HAS to be another coin somewhere to make sense out of any of this.
(And I thought the only headaches I would ever get would come from figuring out Buffalo Nickels - SHEESH)
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
nickeljones was nice enough to let me look at the coin today in Dalton at the show. What I saw in a 20x loupe was an as-stuck Jefferson reverse. Can't imagine anyone with the ability to create what I saw. As for what circumstances that would allow for such an occurrence, I will defer to the experts. Congrats to Mr. Jones!
I'm glad some folks with more intellect than I finally got to see it in hand! The theory of post mint enhancement just never felt right. Nice to hear a few more people are in this boat with nickeljones and I. Obviously, now we have to prove it!
@nickelJones said:
Mr Fivaz has seen the coin. He informed me that there was one major flaw with the piece. And that is the fact that he doesn't own it. Just a great guy to talk with. He thanked me for showing him the coin.
@nickelJones said:
Mr Fivaz has seen the coin. He informed me that there was one major flaw with the piece. And that is the fact that he doesn't own it. Just a great guy to talk with. He thanked me for showing him the coin.
Classic Bill Fivaz.
Indeed!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
Shall I look into setting you up a laser CMM scanning of this in order to generate a precision point cloud?
My guess is such could be accomplished at a high end machine shop within 100 miles of you almost anywhere in the USA.
I'd bet you a roll of '17 Eagles that you could not produce a nickel like this via any method you choose.
@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
Shall I look into setting you up a laser CMM scanning of this in order to generate a precision point cloud?
My guess is such could be accomplished at a high end machine shop within 100 miles of you almost anywhere in the USA.
Will the machines recreate the mess under column three? Clearly the weak struck area we see on most Jefferson nickel reverses of that era.
Is there any sort of machine that can very precisely measure the height of one area on a coin, in this case the odd steps, above another area on the same coin, in this case the field between the letters of MONTICELLO?
If the odd steps were carved down into a working die, they would be deeper in that area than the steps on a normal die, and consequently higher on a coin struck from that die.
If the odd steps were mechanically pressed into a struck coin, that area would be depressed on the struck coin, and consequently lower (compared to the field) than the same step area on a normal coin of roughly the same amount of die wear.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Not that much, besides, I'd cover the price of mailing them to me, if that would help....
So when I recreate this nickel's spectacularly accurate 3-D digital replica, you're going to expect me to cover postage for you to mail me a roll of not very valuable eagles?
So far, this isn't sounding compellingly equitable or interesting.
No, if you can produce such a nickel then I'll send YOU a roll of eagles. Besides, given the ease at which you claim this can be done, this bet should be a no-brainer. However, if you cannot do what you claim is like falling off a log, then you'll have the privilege of sending me a roll of eagles....less the cost of shipping, of course.
Not that much, besides, I'd cover the price of mailing them to me, if that would help....
So when I recreate this nickel's spectacularly accurate 3-D digital replica, you're going to expect me to cover postage for you to mail me a roll of not very valuable eagles?
So far, this isn't sounding compellingly equitable or interesting.
No, if you can produce such a nickel then I'll send YOU a roll of eagles. Besides, given the ease at which you claim this can be done, this bet should be a no-brainer. However, if you cannot do what you claim is like falling off a log, then you'll have the privilege of sending me a roll of eagles....less the cost of shipping, of course.
How much are they worth in USD?
Wait, you can make a coin that can fool the experts but you can't figure out what a roll of eagles is worth in USD? Seriously?!?
@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
1) How would I know what your eagles are worth and not that I actually care or take your proposal as anything other than the intended annoyance and diversionary distraction from the core subject matter it appears to be?
2) Who says this nickel fools anyone or that many nickels haven't been graded with "homemade steps"? Have experts scanned this to replicate its surfaces or has anyone actually put their name and reputation as a "nickel expert" certifying with money backing it that it is "legit"? Have I missed that?
3) To what level of precision, units of measurement, will you be prepared to verify and check my work that it so far isn't sounding like you can afford to commission?
4) If you could actually verify and QA replicated surfaces with any meaningful level of precision, your objections to my simple suggestion that this nickel have a 3-D point cloud generated to digitially recreate it and the die's surface geometry would be non-existent since you would grasp and understand my suggestion.
Not fear it like a caveman the first time he touched something made hot from scary fire.
All I gotta say it's nice to know someone believes "MY" eagles may well have a different value than everyone else's '17 eagles.
ohhhhkay. the only laser this coin would be exposed to could be when Heritage scans it in to inventory. That is of course, if it is accepted as genuine. I believe it is, but I have a vested interest in the piece.
Everyone may want to step back from such strong opinions with this coin. Most have not seen the coin in hand.
It real or it is not? I don't know. I believe so. Others do as well. I'm just the lucky(unlucky?) bum that stumbled upon it. Just fight nice, Okay?
@nickelJones said:
ohhhhkay. the only laser this coin would be exposed to could be when Heritage scans it in to inventory. That is of course, if it is accepted as genuine. I believe it is, but I have a vested interest in the piece.
Everyone may want to step back from such strong opinions with this coin. Most have not seen the coin in hand.
It real or it is not? I don't know. I believe so. Others do as well. I'm just the lucky(unlucky?) bum that stumbled upon it. Just fight nice, Okay?
Agreed. Calm down, people. This is just a coin.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I agree. Nevertheless, I'm enjoying it. I've only been on different numismatic forums for less than two years. I have noticed that very often, new members tend to rock the boat (I was/am one so I know).
Forum members come from all walks of life and bring all kinds of expertise to the table. Many must be experts in something, yet they may not be as knowledgeable about coins as long time members and have joined CU to learn more.
What I enjoy most (next to learning something new) is to read two members with a few posts each going back and forth in a "EDITing Match."
@CaptHenway said:
Could somebody please post pictures of a normal 1938-S for comparison?
This picture got me thinking but am I the only one seeing 8-9 sections of the mystery steps under the steps in the top pic of the wavy steps? I tried copying and pasting the picture to my hard drive but was not allowed. I wanted to circle those areas.
Leo
I finally figured out how to copy the above photo to my hard drive and below is a larger pic of one side with arrows pointing out the segments that appear split which suggests the mystery steps were used to create the wavy steps.
What I'm going to suggest next, a tool similar in the next picture was used to literally carve the steps into the die all at once with one tool with the help of a little heat to soften the metal. How else could they have made such crude (wavy) steps?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
There is nothing wrong with checking out the videos, doing a bit of research and considering the idea the technology shared is here today and will indeed become a part of coins soon.
My understanding is the US Mint has already machined some billet coins.
Now let me further complicate the whole discussion by clarifying LbS since this isn't a point anyone cared to question.
This nickel was made prior to the dropping of the big bombs.
All metals involved in making it; the cupronickel alloy, the hardened steels for the dies, even the metals that made the presses and other equipment were low to no radioactive background.
This nickel and the materials used was no longer L-b S after the bombs since they were most likely not submerged under water.
Just the same, the nickel may very well have radioactivity levels measurably different than nickels minted after 1945.
Fast forward past 1945.
IF this had been altered SEVEN or more years later with a metal punch made of non-L-b S, as in "home-made steps", the possibility exists that the faint differences in radioactivity could possibly be detected with extremely sensitive measuring equipment.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Many people got a hands on look. Brian Raines, Rick Snow, James Sego, and many others. Dave Humphries borrowed it and took it to some others as well. I thought ICG would be there, but they didn't make it.
Comments started with an almost immediate, that's weird. Followed by several minutes of silence.
What in the.... Several WOWS And one, that's cool. Is it for sale?
@CaptHenway said:
Is there any sort of machine that can very precisely measure the height of one area on a coin, in this case the odd steps, above another area on the same coin, in this case the field between the letters of MONTICELLO?
If the odd steps were carved down into a working die, they would be deeper in that area than the steps on a normal die, and consequently higher on a coin struck from that die.
If the odd steps were mechanically pressed into a struck coin, that area would be depressed on the struck coin, and consequently lower (compared to the field) than the same step area on a normal coin of roughly the same amount of die wear.
An electron microscope will be able to accurately measure the relief of the coin. I know someone who has access to one.
NickelJones: Nice to meet you. Thanks for showing me the coin. It reinforced my thinking that it is indeed a modified die. I am a CONECA attributor, although my domain in assigning variety numbers is Flying Eagle and Indian cents. I think this should be assigned MDR-001 (Modified Die Reverse), but it is not my call. I also think an article should be written and submitted to the ErrorScope (CONECA publication). Lastly, why hasn't Coin World picked this story up.
I have had the unusual experience of having many prominent numismatists thanking me for showing them the coin.
The pleasure has been all mine.
Seeing the coin taken seriously was a concern from the start. The help from the numismatic community has been huge. Most of all from Mr BigDowgie. He opened many avenues of contact and I can't thank Him enough.
Might have a reason to go to the summer FUN now. As if any of us really need a reason. Type at Ya latter.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
I believe that he is referring to the fact that each of the three major thick steps has lighter lines that run the length of those steps (or at least the parts that are struck up), giving the appearance of 8 or 9 or maybe more thin steps overall. My guess is that only the major thick steps are intended to be counted as steps, and the rest is just detailing.
TD
If someone can change the .png file to a .jps file and post that picture than I'll be able to circle those areas on the regular 38S steps, top pic, where I can see split steps under the 1st and 4th pillar and there are 3 segments of the wavy steps under the 2nd and 3rd pillars that show additional splits in that area of the wavy steps. Again, what I'm saying, I can see segments possibly of the mystery steps beneath the wavy steps. In other words, the mystery steps may have been a prelude to the wavy steps, not the straight steps.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Was looking for a good picture of the steps themselves and found this instead:
https://www.monticello.org/site/house-and-gardens/west-portico-steps
I did not know that the steps themselves were not built until 1926!
And this archaeological study mentions on P. 20 and elsewhere. that the steps themselves were reconstructed...in 1938!
https://www.monticello.org/archaeology/publications/westportico.pdf
Was art imitating life at the Mint?
Awesome! And there I am in the second article........leothelyon!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Here is a picture of Franklin Roosevelt speaking from the top of the (1926-built) steps in 1936, before the steps were reconstructed in 1938. Notice the horizontal lines typical of brickwork. The faint lines visible on the steps on the mystery coin MAY have been an attempt to simulate this horizontal pattern.
https://campaign.monticello.org/story/president-franklin-d-roosevelt/
Here's a shot from a better angle to show the three-dimensionality of the steps, which look more like a wall in the previous picture.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7074/7209669270_224c7a72b3_b.jpg
I like what you're posting there captain. There are a couple of pictures depicting the earthen ramp on the Monticello. I almost want to do this to the front of my house if it weren't for all those critters that would come with it.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Great thread I'm glad this is still alive..
Let me say, it's impossible to do an accurate overlay because the lighting is from different angles, can't line up. And for those suggesting ICG or someone might know, were any of them around in 1938......inside the mint facility? Outside of US Mint records, the rest would be pure speculation, no-one is going to know except some well-kept records.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Mr Fivaz has seen the coin. He informed me that there was one major flaw with the piece. And that is the fact that he doesn't own it. Just a great guy to talk with. He thanked me for showing him the coin.
I believe that the die was used and pulled for re-working at some point. Don't forget that this die is in San Francisco, and that Mint was totally dependent on Philadelphia for dies. It was during the re-working that some employee strengthened some elements (the steps, lettering, etc.), and put the die back into service.
Who knows how long of a run this die had during its' second wind. It could have only seen limited use before it was retired.
And yes.........there HAS to be another coin somewhere to make sense out of any of this.
(And I thought the only headaches I would ever get would come from figuring out Buffalo Nickels - SHEESH)
Pete
nickeljones was nice enough to let me look at the coin today in Dalton at the show. What I saw in a 20x loupe was an as-stuck Jefferson reverse. Can't imagine anyone with the ability to create what I saw. As for what circumstances that would allow for such an occurrence, I will defer to the experts. Congrats to Mr. Jones!
I'm glad some folks with more intellect than I finally got to see it in hand! The theory of post mint enhancement just never felt right. Nice to hear a few more people are in this boat with nickeljones and I. Obviously, now we have to prove it!
The coin will not be going to ICG.
The response from people following the thread has really been nice. It's fun seeing others get excited about the coin.
Consulted Bill Fivaz. He gave very good advice that I will be following.
ANY developments will be shared here asap.
Classic Bill Fivaz.
Indeed!
Hey ya'll. Just spoke with Skip at ICG. All misunderstandings are now understood.
The coin will be sent to them. Thanks, Insider2, for your assistance.
Skip and I had a great rapport and I look forward to meeting him in person in the future.
Ya'll keep searching. If there is one, gotta be another. I won't mind having a 1 of 2.
Will be interested to see what ICG says.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I'd bet you a roll of '17 Eagles that you could not produce a nickel like this via any method you choose.
Will the machines recreate the mess under column three? Clearly the weak struck area we see on most Jefferson nickel reverses of that era.
Who cares about strike. All they need to recreate are the very fine horizontal lines.
Not that much, besides, I'd cover the price of mailing them to me, if that would help....
$26,500, roughly. Oh, did you mean silver?
Is there any sort of machine that can very precisely measure the height of one area on a coin, in this case the odd steps, above another area on the same coin, in this case the field between the letters of MONTICELLO?
If the odd steps were carved down into a working die, they would be deeper in that area than the steps on a normal die, and consequently higher on a coin struck from that die.
If the odd steps were mechanically pressed into a struck coin, that area would be depressed on the struck coin, and consequently lower (compared to the field) than the same step area on a normal coin of roughly the same amount of die wear.
No, if you can produce such a nickel then I'll send YOU a roll of eagles. Besides, given the ease at which you claim this can be done, this bet should be a no-brainer. However, if you cannot do what you claim is like falling off a log, then you'll have the privilege of sending me a roll of eagles....less the cost of shipping, of course.
Wait, you can make a coin that can fool the experts but you can't figure out what a roll of eagles is worth in USD? Seriously?!?
I've never seen someone in my lifetime with as much doubt as you...in ANY subject.
All I gotta say it's nice to know someone believes "MY" eagles may well have a different value than everyone else's '17 eagles.
ohhhhkay. the only laser this coin would be exposed to could be when Heritage scans it in to inventory. That is of course, if it is accepted as genuine. I believe it is, but I have a vested interest in the piece.
Everyone may want to step back from such strong opinions with this coin. Most have not seen the coin in hand.
It real or it is not? I don't know. I believe so. Others do as well. I'm just the lucky(unlucky?) bum that stumbled upon it. Just fight nice, Okay?
the bar code label that they will stick to the slab LOL
Agreed. Calm down, people. This is just a coin.
I agree. Nevertheless, I'm enjoying it. I've only been on different numismatic forums for less than two years. I have noticed that very often, new members tend to rock the boat (I was/am one so I know).
Forum members come from all walks of life and bring all kinds of expertise to the table. Many must be experts in something, yet they may not be as knowledgeable about coins as long time members and have joined CU to learn more.
What I enjoy most (next to learning something new) is to read two members with a few posts each going back and forth in a "EDITing Match."
I want to do an overlay of the above steps in my earlier post but I don't have the program to copy/open the picture on my computer > @leothelyon said:
I finally figured out how to copy the above photo to my hard drive and below is a larger pic of one side with arrows pointing out the segments that appear split which suggests the mystery steps were used to create the wavy steps.
What I'm going to suggest next, a tool similar in the next picture was used to literally carve the steps into the die all at once with one tool with the help of a little heat to soften the metal. How else could they have made such crude (wavy) steps?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Thanks, very interesting! May I have some more please.
The technology to refurbish a die in such a manner, adding metal then re-engraving, simply did not exist 80 years ago.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Schaumberg was awesome.
Any comments on the nickel?
Many people got a hands on look. Brian Raines, Rick Snow, James Sego, and many others. Dave Humphries borrowed it and took it to some others as well. I thought ICG would be there, but they didn't make it.
Comments started with an almost immediate, that's weird. Followed by several minutes of silence.
What in the.... Several WOWS And one, that's cool. Is it for sale?
It is in the mail to Tampa.
An electron microscope will be able to accurately measure the relief of the coin. I know someone who has access to one.
NickelJones: Nice to meet you. Thanks for showing me the coin. It reinforced my thinking that it is indeed a modified die. I am a CONECA attributor, although my domain in assigning variety numbers is Flying Eagle and Indian cents. I think this should be assigned MDR-001 (Modified Die Reverse), but it is not my call. I also think an article should be written and submitted to the ErrorScope (CONECA publication). Lastly, why hasn't Coin World picked this story up.
I think it should be certified first.
You can't run a electron Microscope on a slabbed coin. There has to be conductivity.
Yes it would have to be raw for Scanning Electron microscopy.
I have had the unusual experience of having many prominent numismatists thanking me for showing them the coin.
The pleasure has been all mine.
Seeing the coin taken seriously was a concern from the start. The help from the numismatic community has been huge. Most of all from Mr BigDowgie. He opened many avenues of contact and I can't thank Him enough.
Might have a reason to go to the summer FUN now. As if any of us really need a reason. Type at Ya latter.
This whole thing has gone WAY to far. I certainly can't make a call on this, as I am no where near an authority.
Let the specialists figure it out.
We should combine this thread with the one about the 1943 Copper Cent battle.
We can call it the Jeffersteel thread.
Pete
2 days late on delivery to Grading service. Starting to be concerned.
coin is safe all is well
Whewww! Don't lose it until I find the second example!
Any word?
I asked nickeljones a few days ago and no word yet. It seems like it is taking a long time to examine, but maybe that is a good thing?
nickeljones will need to provide additional details, if any.