@messydesk said:
I'm not sure what to make of the steps from the photos, but if these are proofs, be very careful with optical illusions caused by the reflective surfaces, including the inside of the slab shell. View these with very diffuse, flat light.
I totally agree. The anxiety of waiting to examine in hand is almost overwhelming. I noticed there is a common weakness and dip around the base of left pillar closest to the door way. This is the same in a few. Also the little mini totem pole looking thing on the far right inside of steps is on at least two. In hunting further I found many bad photos and one more possible candidate of these strange proof steps.
I realize it is a stretch from the 38S, looking forward to seeing the triple lines under my microscope 🔬 and comparing the resemblance.
@Aspie_Rocco said: @BigDowgie@CaptHenway@ICEBOXBERN@messydesk@Insider2@georgiacop50@leothelyon@davewesen@RogerB
I found a few examples of this just now. Not 1938, but All in the Same year ( year with held ) Proof strike. Not close to 1938
So far I have only found this on one die marriage.
Depending where you count from there are over 7 steps. Several area are tripled and doubled within an area where a single step should be. Some on slight angles. Finding these is enough to confirm my previous idea that the 38 S is from the mint this way.
I wonder if this is some sort of chatter. Or experimental stage or a re engraved reverse step area?
Great research. One big FLAW with the "7-steppers" and any theory that the coins are special is visible in these images. I'm going to give others a chance to find it and point it out.
It seems I was mistaken. I offer My embarrassed apologies.
In hand I see some heavy polish marks but nothing as strong as the original photos. I cannot replicate the lighting.
It is a later die stage and has heavy polish marks on it from what I can see.
It is a 1953 Proof FS-401.
Steps seem complete, all 6 as normal. I am still an amateur.
Live and learn.
It seems I was mistaken. I offer My embarrassed apologies.
In hand I see some heavy polish marks but nothing as strong as the original photos. I cannot replicate the lighting.
It is a later die stage and has heavy polish marks on it from what I can see.
It is a 1953 Proof FS-401.
Steps seem complete, all 6 as normal. I am still an amateur.
Live and learn.
Probably proof reflections on plastic, I have one I can make look similar in Capital plastics (but can't picture it).
WOW! It's been a while for me on the Forum. I'm still alive and showing this specimen to many more collectors and dealers. Consensus seems to be tilting toward mint enhanced die. Lacking that second specimen, folks generally agree this is pretty unlikely to be a post-mint modification. My conversation with the Hobo Nickel guys just convinced me more this was mint made and struck.
I've been vigorously working to get an article published in Coin World or other prominent numismatic publication without success. I guess this Nickel Guy doesn't have the pull needed. There has to be someone out there that knows something about this specimen! Getting the word out to the masses is the only way to have a modest shot and finding that someone.
Who might be able to help or have some alternative options?
With things seemingly stating to open back up a bit, I hope to show the coin and get some more opinions one way or another!
I want to get this in front of additional Hobo Nickel folks to get more opinions from them. I'm sure they could carve steps that look like these, but I think it would be obvious they were carved, even after aging for 60+ years.
Anyway, I'll keep you posted and any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
I pulled my 38S out of my Dansco set that I completed about 10 yrs or so ago and it had the normal steps, but I noticed that many of my Jeff's had began to really tone well. Golden hues and central colors were coming out on many. Interesting. I have many Danscos and various other brand albums and this is the most toning I have seen.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
One of my 1938-D's seems to have some light extra steps on the left half. I wonder if it is related to die erosion, machine doubling, or reflection from slab.
Tough to tell without pictures. The pattern of lines and indents on the 1938-S can't be explained by erosion or strike errors, if that is what you are trying to speculate.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Could you please explain the pictures?
It's an overlay of the following two photos/sets of steps, together, in stages of the emergence/merging. When viewed/studied.....perused....and perhaps with a touch of soliloquy and finesse, one just might see....well, they should, that there are....some very remarkable similarities.
But does this still mean we need to locate another example. I believe so (edited to add), but.....maybe not.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@BigDowgie said:
Leo, I think the photo blending is pretty awesome! I am still shooting blanks to get an article published in a numismatic journal!
I thought I was somebody, but apparently not!
Well Mike, since most here and abroad seem to think it's PMD......so the coin is not a total lost to you, a crisp Ulysses S. Grant awaits you, just send that poor little puppy of a PMD nickel to me.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
While it may appear this forum crew may have leanings toward post mint, they have not examined the coin in-hand. There are a few, who I would call experts, who have examined the coin and find it quite appealing. There are too many indicators that this is not post mint, but without mint records or another example, we may never know for sure.
For a Jefferson Nickel guy, this conversation piece is priceless!
It's been a while since I participated in this post. Any chance of a complete photo of the reverse of the 38S in the OP's original question? Thanks,
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
They would have had to dig deeper into the steps area on the master die since the details are incused on that die. The image (Monticello) of a working hub has raised details similar to how the finished product would appear, with raised details. So the details of the wavy steps appear to be higher on the coin than the details of the mystery steps. But a few of you already knew this.
I haven't seen the coin in hand and likely never will but does the coin appear prooflike? Prooflike or semi prooflike surfaces would indicate an early die state strike. Or a first or only strike from the dies.
Another detail to take note is the position of the mint mark. There are about 4 to 5 different positions the mint mark takes but the one on the mystery coin is away from or farther out from the Monticello with a slight tilt to the right with the top of the S.
My only suggestion would be to focus on this type of 1938-S with the slight slanting mm to look for similarities in the details of the strike.
The dot or pimple I circled in red in the series of overlayed photos of the steps I posted above appears on both the wavy steps example and the steps on the mystery coin exactly in the same position on the steps. Coincidence? Two coins with a detail in the same spot should raise some questions on how this could have occurred.
And the other red circle to the right on the steps shows a V-shaped impression on the two sets of steps. Very prominent on the mystery coin but fading on the wavy steps coin.
And the red arrow points to a possible step section from the mystery steps appearing within the wavy steps coin.
Is it possible AI technology could solve the authenticity of the mystery coin? Program the system with multiple examples/images of that particular strike with the slanted S mm and go from there, If AI could find us more similarities and whatnot with the strike of this mystery coin would be interesting, I think.
And the numerous comments made towards the authenticity of this coin that the overall coloration does not change or waver in the step area when compared to the rest of the coin. That it would have been very precise professional skills and tools to make those mystery steps and would have yet been very noticeable had someone done it by hand. And the 100,000 to 120,000 lbs (50 to 60 tons of pressure) needed to press those steps precisely onto the Monticello....what, with a steel punch and hammer? Not even remotely possible, imo!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I suspect it is an instance of an unusual type of strike doubling.
When a repeating pattern (such as the steps) is shifted a little and then superimposed back onto the original "waveform", all sorts of interesting interference patterns can emerge.
I my mind, I just can't see any possibility of strike doubling. The right and left side of the steps are sharply cut, unlike any 1938 of any mint. The three distinct sections of the steps are separated by those two deep lines with many smaller lines. It kind of reminds me of a porch with 4 or 5 steps, then a platform area, then another 4 or 5 steps, then a platform area, then another set of 4 or 5 steps to reach the top.
I continue to bug Larry Briggs to help get a Coin World article written on this piece, Someone has to know something!
Comments
I totally agree. The anxiety of waiting to examine in hand is almost overwhelming. I noticed there is a common weakness and dip around the base of left pillar closest to the door way. This is the same in a few. Also the little mini totem pole looking thing on the far right inside of steps is on at least two. In hunting further I found many bad photos and one more possible candidate of these strange proof steps.
I realize it is a stretch from the 38S, looking forward to seeing the triple lines under my microscope 🔬 and comparing the resemblance.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Great research. One big FLAW with the "7-steppers" and any theory that the coins are special is visible in these images. I'm going to give others a chance to find it and point it out.
I count 6 steps (including the top on which the columns sit) and can trace them complete from left to right (or right to left).
It seems I was mistaken. I offer My embarrassed apologies.
In hand I see some heavy polish marks but nothing as strong as the original photos. I cannot replicate the lighting.
It is a later die stage and has heavy polish marks on it from what I can see.
It is a 1953 Proof FS-401.
Steps seem complete, all 6 as normal. I am still an amateur.
Live and learn.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Well, my 1953 FS-401 does not have that! Now I have to get looking for more!
Probably proof reflections on plastic, I have one I can make look similar in Capital plastics (but can't picture it).
WOW! It's been a while for me on the Forum. I'm still alive and showing this specimen to many more collectors and dealers. Consensus seems to be tilting toward mint enhanced die. Lacking that second specimen, folks generally agree this is pretty unlikely to be a post-mint modification. My conversation with the Hobo Nickel guys just convinced me more this was mint made and struck.
I've been vigorously working to get an article published in Coin World or other prominent numismatic publication without success. I guess this Nickel Guy doesn't have the pull needed. There has to be someone out there that knows something about this specimen! Getting the word out to the masses is the only way to have a modest shot and finding that someone.
Who might be able to help or have some alternative options?
Many thanks
Hey crew,
With things seemingly stating to open back up a bit, I hope to show the coin and get some more opinions one way or another!
I want to get this in front of additional Hobo Nickel folks to get more opinions from them. I'm sure they could carve steps that look like these, but I think it would be obvious they were carved, even after aging for 60+ years.
Anyway, I'll keep you posted and any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
I pulled my 38S out of my Dansco set that I completed about 10 yrs or so ago and it had the normal steps, but I noticed that many of my Jeff's had began to really tone well. Golden hues and central colors were coming out on many. Interesting. I have many Danscos and various other brand albums and this is the most toning I have seen.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
One of my 1938-D's seems to have some light extra steps on the left half. I wonder if it is related to die erosion, machine doubling, or reflection from slab.
Tough to tell without pictures. The pattern of lines and indents on the 1938-S can't be explained by erosion or strike errors, if that is what you are trying to speculate.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Could you please explain the pictures?
It's an overlay of the following two photos/sets of steps, together, in stages of the emergence/merging. When viewed/studied.....perused....and perhaps with a touch of soliloquy and finesse, one just might see....well, they should, that there are....some very remarkable similarities.
But does this still mean we need to locate another example. I believe so (edited to add), but.....maybe not.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo, I think the photo blending is pretty awesome! I am still shooting blanks to get an article published in a numismatic journal!
I thought I was somebody, but apparently not!
Well Mike, since most here and abroad seem to think it's PMD......so the coin is not a total lost to you, a crisp Ulysses S. Grant awaits you, just send that poor little puppy of a PMD nickel to me.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo,
While it may appear this forum crew may have leanings toward post mint, they have not examined the coin in-hand. There are a few, who I would call experts, who have examined the coin and find it quite appealing. There are too many indicators that this is not post mint, but without mint records or another example, we may never know for sure.
For a Jefferson Nickel guy, this conversation piece is priceless!
any updates during last 18 months?
It’s now been nearly three years since any significant posts.
I hope someday we get an answer to this mystery.
Keep trying!
🙂
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
It's been a while since I participated in this post. Any chance of a complete photo of the reverse of the 38S in the OP's original question? Thanks,
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Young whippersnapper!
They would have had to dig deeper into the steps area on the master die since the details are incused on that die. The image (Monticello) of a working hub has raised details similar to how the finished product would appear, with raised details. So the details of the wavy steps appear to be higher on the coin than the details of the mystery steps. But a few of you already knew this.
I haven't seen the coin in hand and likely never will but does the coin appear prooflike? Prooflike or semi prooflike surfaces would indicate an early die state strike. Or a first or only strike from the dies.
Another detail to take note is the position of the mint mark. There are about 4 to 5 different positions the mint mark takes but the one on the mystery coin is away from or farther out from the Monticello with a slight tilt to the right with the top of the S.
My only suggestion would be to focus on this type of 1938-S with the slight slanting mm to look for similarities in the details of the strike.
The dot or pimple I circled in red in the series of overlayed photos of the steps I posted above appears on both the wavy steps example and the steps on the mystery coin exactly in the same position on the steps. Coincidence? Two coins with a detail in the same spot should raise some questions on how this could have occurred.
And the other red circle to the right on the steps shows a V-shaped impression on the two sets of steps. Very prominent on the mystery coin but fading on the wavy steps coin.
And the red arrow points to a possible step section from the mystery steps appearing within the wavy steps coin.
Is it possible AI technology could solve the authenticity of the mystery coin? Program the system with multiple examples/images of that particular strike with the slanted S mm and go from there, If AI could find us more similarities and whatnot with the strike of this mystery coin would be interesting, I think.
And the numerous comments made towards the authenticity of this coin that the overall coloration does not change or waver in the step area when compared to the rest of the coin. That it would have been very precise professional skills and tools to make those mystery steps and would have yet been very noticeable had someone done it by hand. And the 100,000 to 120,000 lbs (50 to 60 tons of pressure) needed to press those steps precisely onto the Monticello....what, with a steel punch and hammer? Not even remotely possible, imo!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I suspect it is an instance of an unusual type of strike doubling.
When a repeating pattern (such as the steps) is shifted a little and then superimposed back onto the original "waveform", all sorts of interesting interference patterns can emerge.
.
I my mind, I just can't see any possibility of strike doubling. The right and left side of the steps are sharply cut, unlike any 1938 of any mint. The three distinct sections of the steps are separated by those two deep lines with many smaller lines. It kind of reminds me of a porch with 4 or 5 steps, then a platform area, then another 4 or 5 steps, then a platform area, then another set of 4 or 5 steps to reach the top.
I continue to bug Larry Briggs to help get a Coin World article written on this piece, Someone has to know something!
Thanks for keeping the post alive!