I'll bet @CaptHenway can tell some good stories about coin authentication and making sausage!
I've been told that professional dealer consultants and professional authenticators can often disagree on a coin's authenticity. Then when the "top guns" in our hobby start throwing sensible and valid opposing opinions around - which is correct? Normal turnaround time at our host seems to run up to a few weeks. This nickel is not a normal coin.
Hey everyone. I spoke with the grader at ICG today. He called to let me know how things were going. The people at ICG are going the extra mile with this. There are still many persons that he wants to get with on the coin. They are also connecting with NGC and it will be examined by them. The entire process is fully expected to continue for several more months. Hopefully I will relieve them of it at the Summer FUN.
@nickelJones said:
Hey everyone. I spoke with the grader at ICG today. He called to let me know how things were going. The people at ICG are going the extra mile with this. There are still many persons that he wants to get with on the coin. They are also connecting with NGC and it will be examined by them. The entire process is fully expected to continue for several more months. Hopefully I will relieve them of it at the Summer FUN.
@nickelJones said:
Hey everyone. I spoke with the grader at ICG today. He called to let me know how things were going. The people at ICG are going the extra mile with this. There are still many persons that he wants to get with on the coin. They are also connecting with NGC and it will be examined by them. The entire process is fully expected to continue for several more months. Hopefully I will relieve them of it at the Summer FUN.
wow, what is going to be the grading fee on that?
I cannot speak for ICG or NGC, but when I was with ANACS, once the submittor paid the appropriate fee for the coin we took as long as we needed to get the job right, and if we needed to send it to three consultants we ate the postage expenses.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Insider2 said:
I'll bet @CaptHenway can tell some good stories about coin authentication and making sausage!
I've been told that professional dealer consultants and professional authenticators can often disagree on a coin's authenticity. Then when the "top guns" in our hobby start throwing sensible and valid opposing opinions around - which is correct? Normal turnaround time at our host seems to run up to a few weeks. This nickel is not a normal coin.
Yes indeed. Our biggest area of uncertainty was in ancient coins.
And sometimes the correct decision is "No Decision." Anybody that claims to have every answer for every question will probably lie about other things as well.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I spoke to nickeljones last week, as I'm curious as well. The nickel is still being passed around for study. Without any definitive records from the Mint, this will pose an interesting hurdle for the experts to overcome if their conclusion is "mint made". He is hopeful that some final experts view the coin at the ANA in Denver early August. I'm sure a better update will be provided then.
I just got caught up on this today reading all 6 pages. This has turned into a really big project. Can't wait for the final decision.
I also want to add that I got to meet NickelJones at Central States and view the coin in hand. I agree with the fellow members here who feel that this was done at the mint and NOT post mint damage.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I believe it to be the real thing. I can't believe someone would go to that much trouble to re-tool it (post mint) for what reward? I believe the coin's true provenance will play a big role too. It was discovered outside the 'circle'. It will take time but I think it will be confirmed as legit. To me, its real until expert or experts prove otherwise.
I want to see the coin proven good, but having worked as a professional authenticator, I know that there is no substitute for a hand-on examination by a professional with the proper equipment. I eagerly await the report by same.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I'll bet this will all be solved by next January after the FUN Show. Sooner or later, this coin should probably end up at the Treasury Department for their opinion. Whatever they say (right or wrong/agree or not), it will be the final word.
I heard that's how it was done when ANACS was in DC decades ago. I've been told that they did screw up the 1969-S DDO coins when they saw them. I don't know for sure and it may just be hearsay.
How come this thread does not show "NEW" on it when it gets a new post. Other threads do.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I spoke to nickeljones last week and he said he was going to get on and post an update. I'll burst your bubbles and let you know there is nothing new to report. More experts are trying to be scheduled to review the coin. It looks like final results are lining up for the FUN Show in January. Bummer!
Hello people. Sorry about the lapse in input to the blog. Been a very busy man helping out family.
Spoke with Skip at ICG for almost a half hour. There are many persons that still haven't had a hands on look at the piece. The coin could be shipped to others but that would get expensive, and they are doing this at no charge. I informed Skip that he could retain the coin as long as needed. We loosely set the Tampa FUN as the most likely return of the coin. I am leaving this entirely up to Skip.
I have been very impressed with Skip and his communications. His conversations have been full of information and I believe that I would enjoy drinking a beer with him.
Saw a comment about the Secret service and the 69-S DDO Lincoln cent. The story I read was that some of the very first examples were confiscated as they were thought to be counterfeit. And unfortunately were destroyed before anyone realized they were genuine. That had to suck.
Hi People. I lost my phone and most of the pictures were in it. I will check my backup files at home. If I do find the pictures, they will be reposted. Good luck on the hunting.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Shag...thanks for pics! This one just continues to baffle me! Think about how hard that nickel is and how small those steps are. Those fine lines are so detailed, but not perfect, and how naturally the lines fade into the flat areas. The few nicks in the steps and color just look natural. On top of all this, I see no distortions in other areas of the coin that suggests pounding or tooling to produce those steps. Mind boggling!
Ok crew, we are counting down to the FUN Show where we are supposed to get the official consensus from our many experts on this awesome 1938-S trial design piece! I just let you know what I think!
I think this 38-S coin could help shed some light on the subject. At some point, they added the wavy steps to that reverse die. I'm certain there are earlier struck examples out there that would help authenticate the coin in question.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@leothelyon said:
I think this 38-S coin could help shed some light on the subject. At some point, they added the wavy steps to that reverse die. I'm certain there are earlier struck examples out there that would help authenticate the coin in question.
Leo
I went to CoinFacts and looked at a quite few 1938-S FS pictures because of the nice blow-up feature. Many had the added lines like yours between pillar 1 and 2 and a couple had the lines between pillars 3 and 4. They do look different than the coin in question in this thread.
Neat coin, unfortunately, the sides of the steps are not recessed as on the OP's coin making them looked punched in. If I were the OP, I should keep the coin. Who knows what will happen in the future? Could a "pattern" have slipped out?
@leothelyon said:
I think this 38-S coin could help shed some light on the subject. At some point, they added the wavy steps to that reverse die. I'm certain there are earlier struck examples out there that would help authenticate the coin in question.
Leo
You know what would be neat and quite possible?
What if the Mint decided to change the steps on the nickel (THEY DID) and prepared the dies. The coins would look like the OP's coin and many were struck. Then someone decided that the steps looked stupid (THEY DO on the OP's coin). The dies went back to the engraving dept. and the dies were modified - resulting in the coin posted above. The rejected step coins were never released EXCEPT some got out and some unaware collector pulled the OP's Unc out of circulation and put it into his folder to be found later by the OP.
I didn't like the OP's coin UNTIL NOW!
Let the mystery continue...and good luck to the OP.
PS If a big auction house likes my story and catalogs your coin, you are going to need a big sack to carry away the money.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Hey, thanks for resurrecting the post! Nickeljones will need to chime in with a little more detail, but the coin was returned and I think the verdict was post-mint engraving. I don't have the details that were provided with the explanation. I know the camps were split pretty evenly and really never will be confirmed a trial without mint evidence or the discovery of another example.
I'll get NickelJones to chime in.
Leo, great pictures and analysis. Can't wait for next update!
Hi people. The coin did not slab. Re-engraved was not the verdict. The thought is some how repunched or impressed.
There are people on both sides of the fence still. There are people that still want to see the piece as well.
The coin is no longer mine. The person with first option and I have come to terms. Very glad that he has it. It will not be hidden away. I'll bet he doesn't go to a show without it!
Thanks to everyone here. Sharing information and getting other points of view can only help us.
I full release any and all images I provided of this coin, to be used in any way. Gratis.
He's a tough negotiator, but all the lavish artifacts, gifts, promises and a few other things that can't be posted here, won nickeljones over! He's absolutely correct.....I won't leave home without it!
@BigDowgie said:
He's a tough negotiator, but all the lavish artifacts, gifts, promises and a few other things that can't be posted here, won nickeljones over! He's absolutely correct.....I won't leave home without it!
Thanks again
.......................and you shouldn't.
Congrats to you!
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
nickeljones and I have been sitting on this story way too long since the past posts! We are working on preparing an article to submit to CONECA (ErrorScope) and Coin World. I'm not sure if it will be possible to have something published before the 2019 FUN Show?
So, I have this ask. Send me a PM with your opinion concerning the coin. I'd like to keep you opinions anonymous and then I will share results. Respond with "Mint Enhanced" or "Post Mint" plus a short blurb on your rational. I would like to include the anonymous results and comments in the article submission.
Thanks for your participation in this post and to my request.
Comments
I'll bet @CaptHenway can tell some good stories about coin authentication and making sausage!
I've been told that professional dealer consultants and professional authenticators can often disagree on a coin's authenticity. Then when the "top guns" in our hobby start throwing sensible and valid opposing opinions around - which is correct? Normal turnaround time at our host seems to run up to a few weeks. This nickel is not a normal coin.
Hey everyone. I spoke with the grader at ICG today. He called to let me know how things were going. The people at ICG are going the extra mile with this. There are still many persons that he wants to get with on the coin. They are also connecting with NGC and it will be examined by them. The entire process is fully expected to continue for several more months. Hopefully I will relieve them of it at the Summer FUN.
wow, what is going to be the grading fee on that?
I cannot speak for ICG or NGC, but when I was with ANACS, once the submittor paid the appropriate fee for the coin we took as long as we needed to get the job right, and if we needed to send it to three consultants we ate the postage expenses.
TD
Yes indeed. Our biggest area of uncertainty was in ancient coins.
And sometimes the correct decision is "No Decision." Anybody that claims to have every answer for every question will probably lie about other things as well.
Any word?
I spoke to nickeljones last week, as I'm curious as well. The nickel is still being passed around for study. Without any definitive records from the Mint, this will pose an interesting hurdle for the experts to overcome if their conclusion is "mint made". He is hopeful that some final experts view the coin at the ANA in Denver early August. I'm sure a better update will be provided then.
I just got caught up on this today reading all 6 pages. This has turned into a really big project. Can't wait for the final decision.
I also want to add that I got to meet NickelJones at Central States and view the coin in hand. I agree with the fellow members here who feel that this was done at the mint and NOT post mint damage.
where is the "twirling thumbs" emoticon?
Anyone? Class? Bueller?
I believe it to be the real thing. I can't believe someone would go to that much trouble to re-tool it (post mint) for what reward? I believe the coin's true provenance will play a big role too. It was discovered outside the 'circle'. It will take time but I think it will be confirmed as legit. To me, its real until expert or experts prove otherwise.
fullstepnickels.....I am one to agree and like your position as it's legit until proven otherwise!
I want to see the coin proven good, but having worked as a professional authenticator, I know that there is no substitute for a hand-on examination by a professional with the proper equipment. I eagerly await the report by same.
I'll bet this will all be solved by next January after the FUN Show. Sooner or later, this coin should probably end up at the Treasury Department for their opinion. Whatever they say (right or wrong/agree or not), it will be the final word.
I heard that's how it was done when ANACS was in DC decades ago. I've been told that they did screw up the 1969-S DDO coins when they saw them. I don't know for sure and it may just be hearsay.
Photobucket has put the nix on most of the images,:(
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
How come this thread does not show "NEW" on it when it gets a new post. Other threads do.
Crickets
It does for me.
Crew,
I spoke to nickeljones last week and he said he was going to get on and post an update. I'll burst your bubbles and let you know there is nothing new to report. More experts are trying to be scheduled to review the coin. It looks like final results are lining up for the FUN Show in January. Bummer!
Hello people. Sorry about the lapse in input to the blog. Been a very busy man helping out family.
Spoke with Skip at ICG for almost a half hour. There are many persons that still haven't had a hands on look at the piece. The coin could be shipped to others but that would get expensive, and they are doing this at no charge. I informed Skip that he could retain the coin as long as needed. We loosely set the Tampa FUN as the most likely return of the coin. I am leaving this entirely up to Skip.
I have been very impressed with Skip and his communications. His conversations have been full of information and I believe that I would enjoy drinking a beer with him.
Saw a comment about the Secret service and the 69-S DDO Lincoln cent. The story I read was that some of the very first examples were confiscated as they were thought to be counterfeit. And unfortunately were destroyed before anyone realized they were genuine. That had to suck.
Can we get the pix reposted?
Agree, any updates?
+1
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Hi People. I lost my phone and most of the pictures were in it. I will check my backup files at home. If I do find the pictures, they will be reposted. Good luck on the hunting.
Here are the three pics I had saved from this conversation.
Thanks for the pix.
Those are some odd looking steps.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Bill Fivaz famously said “There is a big problem with this coin. It’s not mine.”
Shag...thanks for pics! This one just continues to baffle me! Think about how hard that nickel is and how small those steps are. Those fine lines are so detailed, but not perfect, and how naturally the lines fade into the flat areas. The few nicks in the steps and color just look natural. On top of all this, I see no distortions in other areas of the coin that suggests pounding or tooling to produce those steps. Mind boggling!
Ok crew, we are counting down to the FUN Show where we are supposed to get the official consensus from our many experts on this awesome 1938-S trial design piece! I just let you know what I think!
I'm not sure if you all had a chance to read Mr. Wiles' results?
varietyvista.com/News%20and%20Studies.htm
the notes are very interesting - all we need is another
So anything new on this post-FUN??
I was thinking the same thing today, as I have this post book marked and not much action as of as late. TTT
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I think this 38-S coin could help shed some light on the subject. At some point, they added the wavy steps to that reverse die. I'm certain there are earlier struck examples out there that would help authenticate the coin in question.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I went to CoinFacts and looked at a quite few 1938-S FS pictures because of the nice blow-up feature. Many had the added lines like yours between pillar 1 and 2 and a couple had the lines between pillars 3 and 4. They do look different than the coin in question in this thread.
Neat coin, unfortunately, the sides of the steps are not recessed as on the OP's coin making them looked punched in. If I were the OP, I should keep the coin. Who knows what will happen in the future? Could a "pattern" have slipped out?
You know what would be neat and quite possible?
What if the Mint decided to change the steps on the nickel (THEY DID) and prepared the dies. The coins would look like the OP's coin and many were struck. Then someone decided that the steps looked stupid (THEY DO on the OP's coin). The dies went back to the engraving dept. and the dies were modified - resulting in the coin posted above. The rejected step coins were never released EXCEPT some got out and some unaware collector pulled the OP's Unc out of circulation and put it into his folder to be found later by the OP.
I didn't like the OP's coin UNTIL NOW!
Let the mystery continue...and good luck to the OP.
PS If a big auction house likes my story and catalogs your coin, you are going to need a big sack to carry away the money.
Fascinating!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Gave up.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Hey, thanks for resurrecting the post! Nickeljones will need to chime in with a little more detail, but the coin was returned and I think the verdict was post-mint engraving. I don't have the details that were provided with the explanation. I know the camps were split pretty evenly and really never will be confirmed a trial without mint evidence or the discovery of another example.
I'll get NickelJones to chime in.
Leo, great pictures and analysis. Can't wait for next update!
Hi people. The coin did not slab. Re-engraved was not the verdict. The thought is some how repunched or impressed.
There are people on both sides of the fence still. There are people that still want to see the piece as well.
The coin is no longer mine. The person with first option and I have come to terms. Very glad that he has it. It will not be hidden away. I'll bet he doesn't go to a show without it!
Thanks to everyone here. Sharing information and getting other points of view can only help us.
I full release any and all images I provided of this coin, to be used in any way. Gratis.
He's a tough negotiator, but all the lavish artifacts, gifts, promises and a few other things that can't be posted here, won nickeljones over! He's absolutely correct.....I won't leave home without it!
Thanks again
.......................and you shouldn't.
Congrats to you!
Pete
So the Big Dawg has the coin now. WTG.....better than a Panda right!
I have to say, when it comes to Jeffersons.......better then a Panda any day!
I'll have this specimen at the Central States Show, 4/26 - 4/28. No table, as you will need to hunt me down if you would like a look!
One of the most fascinating and entertaining threads I've read in over 15 years. Thank you!
Crew,
nickeljones and I have been sitting on this story way too long since the past posts! We are working on preparing an article to submit to CONECA (ErrorScope) and Coin World. I'm not sure if it will be possible to have something published before the 2019 FUN Show?
So, I have this ask. Send me a PM with your opinion concerning the coin. I'd like to keep you opinions anonymous and then I will share results. Respond with "Mint Enhanced" or "Post Mint" plus a short blurb on your rational. I would like to include the anonymous results and comments in the article submission.
Thanks for your participation in this post and to my request.