@ChrisRx said:
If you won a million dollars on a malfunctioning slot machine in Vegas would you get the $?
There's your answer. It's a malfunction (error.)
But what if the casino paid the money and then realized later the slot machine had malfunctioned. Would they have a legal claim to come after the money?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@callawayc7 said:
A question for any lawyers out there. If the guy does not return the coin to PCGS. Could PCGS send him a certified legal letter stating that it was a mechanical error and is not a matte proof and by them informing him this and he still sells it later on (knowing it is not a matte proof) he is committing fraud and is legally and criminally responsible? Would that protect PCGS legally if a future buyer goes after PCGS?
@ChrisRx said:
If you won a million dollars on a malfunctioning slot machine in Vegas would you get the $?
There's your answer. It's a malfunction (error.)
But how do you know for sure that the machine malfunctioned and that the casino isn't using that as an excuse to avoid paying out the money? Answer is that you don't know.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
I feel really bad for this guy. You buy a coin cheap and submit it attributed yourself as a rarity and then get a slab back with full vindication from the number one authentication business in the world, just to have it ripped away by some internet sleuths after a little bragging. For a potentially life-changing amount of money a few free submissions would not be enough to get me to send it back to you (IMO) if I was in this guys shoes.
The guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL. Imagine if it were an MPL and another bidder won it for $65! It wasn't until he showed the coin around to a few local "experts" that the notion it might be a matte proof popped up. Still, cent expert Brian Wagner told him early on it was NOT a MPL. I'd probably keep the coin as is too just as a keepsake of what can go wrong in the TPG process. You still have the coin itself which is still worth $50. Makes a nice conversation piece. Though for sure down the road, even if it takes decades, someone is going to try and pawn it off as a real MPL because that's what the holder says....not to mention that Grandpa Larry "told us all the story" of his Cherry Pick of the Century that set the coin market on fire for weeks.
The Label/grade is PCGS opinion .....who ya gonna blame coin owner ? for wrong PCGS opinion ?
Now that PCGS yanked Cert # ID .. coin will go underground for who knows how long
@roadrunner said:
The guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL. Imagine if it were an MPL and another bidder won it for $65!
Not necessarily. There was a forum member here that cherry picked both GSC and Centsles with true matte proof coins. I believe the pieces were Buffalo nickels.
@roadrunner said:
The guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL. Imagine if it were an MPL and another bidder won it for $65!
Not necessarily. There was a forum member here that cherry picked both GSC and Centsles with true matte proof coins. I believe the pieces were Buffalo nickels.
Why are we discussing the forum member that cherried 2 unattributed Matte Proof Buffs? That forum member is a real expert and searches high and low for those. Larry is a newb who was taking pot luck shots with GSC. The fact is Larry's high bid was only $60. That was not nearly high enough to ensure you'd have a shot to win a $40,000 sleeper MPL advertised nationally from a leading dealer. I'll guarantee you that those Buff Cherry Picks took multiples of $60 to secure them....and even so they would be worth in the $1,000-$3,000 range....not $40,000. If you honestly felt you found a possible unattributed MPL on Ebay, would you only venture $60 towards winning it? A newbie might do that. I know I wouldn't. You'd have to ensure you at least cleared the price range of what a monster MS65 toner VDB would bring. Say $200? $300? $500? If there's a 2nd person on your heels, odds are it's a decent shot. If there isn't, then you'll get it for $60 in the end any ways. There was no such 2nd knowledgeable person bidding behind Larry. No one else considered the coin to have MPL potential....not at $55-$60...not on Ebay from GSC.
@roadrunner said:
The guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL. Imagine if it were an MPL and another bidder won it for $65!
Not necessarily. There was a forum member here that cherry picked both GSC and Centsles with true matte proof coins. I believe the pieces were Buffalo nickels.
Why are we discussing the forum member that cherried 2 unattributed Matte Proof Buffs from GSC? That forum member is a real expert and searches high and low for those. Larry is a newb who was taking pot luck shots with GSC. The fact is Larry's high bid was only $60. That was not nearly high enough to ensure you'd have a shot to win a $40,000 sleeper MPL advertised nationally from a leading dealer. I'll guarantee you that those Buff Cherry Picks took multiples of $60 to secure them....and even so they would be worth in the $1,000-$3,000 range....not $40,000.
My point was that the price realized does not necessarily say anything about whether a coin is a business strike or a matte proof. It the coin is undetected or misattributed, it doesn't matter whether it is a $3k coin or a $40k coin. Overlooked is overlooked. Both buffalo nickels were picked up at small fractions of fair market value. The same is plausible for a wheat cent. You had previously written, "[t]he guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL."
My point was that the price realized does not necessarily say anything about whether a coin is a business strike or a matte proof. It the coin is undetected or misattributed, it doesn't matter whether it is a $3k coin or a $40k coin. Overlooked is overlooked. Both buffalo nickels were picked up at small fractions of fair market value. The same is plausible for a wheat cent. You had previously written, "[t]he guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL."
And I disagree with your point. A $60 bid on this coin suggested that all the bidders and GSC did not see this coin as a potential MPL in any way, shape or form. What, Larry was going to "out-snipe" the entire CU Forum, PCGS/NGC dealers, CT members, and the entire Ebay numismatic world at the cherry pick game? Even if everyone else but Larry missed it, Larry's ridiculous $60 bid on a potential $40K cherry pick proved even he didn't think it was. If someone else believed it could be a MPL then THEY would have won it for $65....sorry Larry....you missed it.
Larry was risking maybe $10-$30 max above normal MS65 VDB prices, most of that for a color premium. The Buff cherry picks were a different story. I'm sure our Forum member paid well above $60 on those. I can see getting a MP Buff cherry pick for $100-$200 on a $1500 coin. I cannot see getting a MPL VDB cherry pick for $60 on a $40,000 coin. That ratio is outlandish. There's almost 0% risk. It just doesn't happen that way....and not to a Newb like Larry. It's obvious to me that Larry never saw this as MPL potential....until after the auction when he showed it around to discuss the strike, etc. That's my point. I've taken enough "shots" in my life to know what levels you have to stick your neck out to be assured of getting what you want. Only an idiot would have placed a max bid of $60 IF they really thought it had MPL potential....even a 5% shot would have been worth a $500-$1500 bid. Larry clearly doesn't understand risk vs. reward.
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
@callawayc7 said:
A question for any lawyers out there. If the guy does not return the coin to PCGS. Could PCGS send him a certified legal letter stating that it was a mechanical error and is not a matte proof and by them informing him this and he still sells it later on (knowing it is not a matte proof) he is committing fraud and is legally and criminally responsible? Would that protect PCGS legally if a future buyer goes after PCGS?
Not a lawyer but was a federal criminal investigator 18 years.
As he was officially notified by pcgs that it was an error if he sold it now as a proof he would be committing a crime under federal statute. Fraud requires intent to decieve and this would assuredly be intent. Had he sold it before the notice it would be almost impossible criminally. And i would guess very hard civilly.
Computerized. It would be opened and diagnostics run. In Vegas, at least, and I am sure others know better but I did have extended family involved in working with the casinos on things, the gambling and slots are pretty regulated and watched.
A big payout wouldn't be handed out without being checked on.
@callawayc7 said:
A question for any lawyers out there. If the guy does not return the coin to PCGS. Could PCGS send him a certified legal letter stating that it was a mechanical error and is not a matte proof and by them informing him this and he still sells it later on (knowing it is not a matte proof) he is committing fraud and is legally and criminally responsible? Would that protect PCGS legally if a future buyer goes after PCGS?
@ChrisRx said:
If you won a million dollars on a malfunctioning slot machine in Vegas would you get the $?
There's your answer. It's a malfunction (error.)
But how do you know for sure that the machine malfunctioned and that the casino isn't using that as an excuse to avoid paying out the money? Answer is that you don't know.
@coinhack said:
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
It shows at CAC as........................
Serial Number: 13632365
Grading Service: PCGS
Description: 1935-S Silver Commemoratives Texas 50C Type MS MS65
STATUS! BEANED
You know in reality, the bidder that won didn't really lose anything, he bid 60 bucks on a coin and got a coin worth 80 to 90 bucks with color. In numismatics there is no free lunch...
@ChrisRx said:
If you won a million dollars on a malfunctioning slot machine in Vegas would you get the $?
There's your answer. It's a malfunction (error.)
Of course they would, I won thousands on a broken slot machine and it was broke for weeks . The casino took at least a month to figure out what was going on .
My father-law won over a hundred thousand dollars on the same broken machine too ...
I don't know where GSC gets their inventory? Maybe they are hotel buyers or just bulk buyers from dealers.
But there are collectors and those who inherit collections that could sell to GSC.
GSC currently has 1237 eBay listings and 1194 auctions.
So there business model is to move product on eBay and apparently they can sell coins for more than they pay for them.
It takes time to examine coins and perhaps they hire non-coin people to photograph and run their eBay sales?
I bought 5 coins from them once and I had to return them all. There was no problem doing that so they stand behind their coins
My point was that the price realized does not necessarily say anything about whether a coin is a business strike or a matte proof. It the coin is undetected or misattributed, it doesn't matter whether it is a $3k coin or a $40k coin. Overlooked is overlooked. Both buffalo nickels were picked up at small fractions of fair market value. The same is plausible for a wheat cent. You had previously written, "[t]he guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL."
And I disagree with your point. A $60 bid on this coin suggested that all the bidders and GSC did not see this coin as a potential MPL in any way, shape or form. What, Larry was going to "out-snipe" the entire CU Forum, PCGS/NGC dealers, CT members, and the entire Ebay numismatic world at the cherry pick game? Even if everyone else but Larry missed it, Larry's ridiculous $60 bid on a potential $40K cherry pick proved even he didn't think it was. If someone else believed it could be a MPL then THEY would have won it for $65....sorry Larry....you missed it.
Larry was risking maybe $10-$30 max above normal MS65 VDB prices, most of that for a color premium. The Buff cherry picks were a different story. I'm sure our Forum member paid well above $60 on those. I can see getting a MP Buff cherry pick for $100-$200 on a $1500 coin. I cannot see getting a MPL VDB cherry pick for $60 on a $40,000 coin. That ratio is outlandish. There's almost 0% risk. It just doesn't happen that way....and not to a Newb like Larry. It's obvious to me that Larry never saw this as MPL potential....until after the auction when he showed it around to discuss the strike, etc. That's my point. I've taken enough "shots" in my life to know what levels you have to stick your neck out to be assured of getting what you want. Only an idiot would have placed a max bid of $60 IF they really thought it had MPL potential....even a 5% shot would have been worth a $500-$1500 bid. Larry clearly doesn't understand risk vs. reward.
It does not matter if anyone realized what it is during bidding process. I bought a 1911 $2 1/2 Indian, and thought (by the pictures) that is was a plain 1911. Every other bidder must have thought that as well, as it went cheap. When I got it in hand, I discovered it was a 1911-D weak d.
@coinhack said:
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
This is a GREAT example of what I don't understand about the guarantee.
I am not asking PCGS, NGC, ANACS or CAC to tell me the date of the coin, I already know that even if I am not an expert. I would agree this is a "mechanical error" and I would send it back. A 10 year old could check this at the end of the process and see that it is incorrect. I do not need a professional grader to figure that out.
What I do expect from professional grading experts is that they stand behind their grade on the label including proof/not proof and also that they stand behind the coin being real and not fake. That is what I am paying them for. I expect them to get this correct 100% of the time. If they don't, I expect them to stand behind that guarantee. How can the original submitter be found liable for the 3rd parties error? That doesn't make sense to me. (This is where the thread actually became personal for me)
The problem is that the person putting the label in the system and in the slab does not know enough to determine fake vs. real and proof vs. mint state when they do that final check on the really tough coins. That is where the expert is needed. Anyone who works at PCGS can tell if the date is incorrect. That is a mechanical error. I don't need an expert to figure that out. The real/fake and MS/Proof are grading errors. There is a big difference in my opinion. The reason they are grading errors and not mechanical errors is because the common layman cannot tell the difference. I need an expert to see the difference. This is not the case with a date or mint mark error. Anyone who can read can tell the difference. A good attorney could easily show the difference by showing a date/mintmark mechanical error versus showing the coin in question on this thread. Anyone without any formal training could understand and see the date error. Only an expert would see the proof/MS error.
If it was me, I would put an actual professional grader at the end of your process after the label is made and the slab is complete if you want to prevent this from happening in the future. If you already do that, I would say they need some additional training. I would also stand behind my grade even when someone screwed up.
It is no different than when I take my car to a mechanic. Some mechanics stand behind their work, some don't. I will always go to the one that does. I recently had a mechanic eat about a $400 stupid mistake they made. I don't know anything about cars and they could have lied about it but they stood behind it because they are the experts and should have known better. Needless to say, I am a very loyal customer and tell all my friends about this mechanic.
I would love to hear some discussion on how my position is incorrect.
I know quite a few dealers who submit coins under the pretense it will be purchased based on how it is graded,attributed, or what ever by TPG's. Would the original submitter 10 years ago be responsible for a coin they purchased based on the grade or attribution made by a TPG?
As long as he acquired it legally and ethically, how the coin came to be in the possession of the one who submitted it is irrelevant. How long he owned it before submitting it is irrelevant. What he thought it was when he bid for it is irrelevant.
I think it is more an ethics issue rather than a legal issue whether the submitter has PCGS fix the attribution of the 1909 VDB. It will cause harm in the future.
The coin that I have in to change from PR64RD to MS was originally submitted as a crossover from an ANACS PR64RD by a respected dealer. He was suprized as was my customer and PCGS as well that it was missattributed. Misakes get made and rather than dumping the coin in an auction to hurt someone else down the line, my customer agreed that it should be corrected.
@Bochiman said:
Computerized. It would be opened and diagnostics run. In Vegas, at least, and I am sure others know better but I did have extended family involved in working with the casinos on things, the gambling and slots are pretty regulated and watched.
A big payout wouldn't be handed out without being checked on.
@callawayc7 said:
A question for any lawyers out there. If the guy does not return the coin to PCGS. Could PCGS send him a certified legal letter stating that it was a mechanical error and is not a matte proof and by them informing him this and he still sells it later on (knowing it is not a matte proof) he is committing fraud and is legally and criminally responsible? Would that protect PCGS legally if a future buyer goes after PCGS?
@ChrisRx said:
If you won a million dollars on a malfunctioning slot machine in Vegas would you get the $?
There's your answer. It's a malfunction (error.)
But how do you know for sure that the machine malfunctioned and that the casino isn't using that as an excuse to avoid paying out the money? Answer is that you don't know.
True they would probably check the machine before they pay out just like the lottery validates your ticket before they cut the check. The thing is that the casino makes the call and you accept their decision, but you have no way of knowing if they are being truthful or not. People cheat for way more than a million and people cheat for less.
The coin is a boon to the specialty collectors that collect mislabeled/mechanical error TPG coins/slabs. What is it worth to these collectors? Will we ever see a PCGS "mechanical error" registry set?
@coinhack said:
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
This is a GREAT example of what I don't understand about the guarantee.
I am not asking PCGS, NGC, ANACS or CAC to tell me the date of the coin, I already know that even if I am not an expert. I would agree this is a "mechanical error" and I would send it back. A 10 year old could check this at the end of the process and see that it is incorrect. I do not need a professional grader to figure that out.
What I do expect from professional grading experts is that they stand behind their grade on the label including proof/not proof and also that they stand behind the coin being real and not fake. That is what I am paying them for. I expect them to get this correct 100% of the time. If they don't, I expect them to stand behind that guarantee. How can the original submitter be found liable for the 3rd parties error? That doesn't make sense to me. (This is where the thread actually became personal for me)
The problem is that the person putting the label in the system and in the slab does not know enough to determine fake vs. real and proof vs. mint state when they do that final check on the really tough coins. That is where the expert is needed. Anyone who works at PCGS can tell if the date is incorrect. That is a mechanical error. I don't need an expert to figure that out. The real/fake and MS/Proof are grading errors. There is a big difference in my opinion. The reason they are grading errors and not mechanical errors is because the common layman cannot tell the difference. I need an expert to see the difference. This is not the case with a date or mint mark error. Anyone who can read can tell the difference. A good attorney could easily show the difference by showing a date/mintmark mechanical error versus showing the coin in question on this thread. Anyone without any formal training could understand and see the date error. Only an expert would see the proof/MS error.
If it was me, I would put an actual professional grader at the end of your process after the label is made and the slab is complete if you want to prevent this from happening in the future. If you already do that, I would say they need some additional training. I would also stand behind my grade even when someone screwed up.
It is no different than when I take my car to a mechanic. Some mechanics stand behind their work, some don't. I will always go to the one that does. I recently had a mechanic eat about a $400 stupid mistake they made. I don't know anything about cars and they could have lied about it but they stood behind it because they are the experts and should have known better. Needless to say, I am a very loyal customer and tell all my friends about this mechanic.
I would love to hear some discussion on how my position is incorrect.
The labels are essentially printed when the coin is received and entered into the system, at least that's what I'd deduce from the bodybagged coin/s that I've gotten back. Whoever prints the final insert is likely just printing a duplication whatever info is in the system. You'd need to audit the movement of the coin/submission from the time it was received until it shipped in order to find out where the "error" occurred.
@coinhack said:
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
It shows at CAC as........................
Serial Number: 13632365
Grading Service: PCGS
Description: 1935-S Silver Commemoratives Texas 50C Type MS MS65
STATUS! BEANED
The coin is OBVIOUSLY a Mint Error. PCGS and CAC both label/agree that it a 1935-S, so the Mint must have gotten it wrong. PCGS/CAC together trump the Mint, we all know that!
@coinhack said:
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
It shows at CAC as........................
Serial Number: 13632365
Grading Service: PCGS
Description: 1935-S Silver Commemoratives Texas 50C Type MS MS65
STATUS! BEANED
The coin is OBVIOUSLY a Mint Error. PCGS and CAC both label/agree that it a 1935-S, so the Mint must have gotten it wrong. PCGS/CAC together trump the Mint, we all know that!
In the past, I thought PCGS said a 'mechanical error' is something a beginning numismatist could determine - like a wrong year, or mintmark wrong, or well circulated coin called uncirculated.
I also thought PCGS authorized dealers had different terms than collectors club members.
@EagleEye said:
I think it is more an ethics issue rather than a legal issue whether the submitter has PCGS fix the attribution of the 1909 VDB. It will cause harm in the future.
Completely agree. Correct the mistake and no innocents get hurt later.
If you can easily tell just by looking at the coin that the description on the holder is wrong, then the coin/holder combination is not covered by the PCGS Guarantee
thanks, cameonut, that pretty much ends things for any rational person.
I think in the end the total liability will be the auction price of the coin which was 60-something dollars? I think if the current owner sold it for $40K things would then be a different story.
since he knows now what he knows, he would be wise not to try to sell it for his windfall. that could land him in jail.
The problem is that the person putting the label in the system and in the slab does not know enough to determine fake vs. real and proof vs. mint state when they do that final check on the really tough coins. That is where the expert is needed.
I doubt this is it. I, for one, am willing to give whoever made the "clerical mistake" the benefit of the doubt while allowing that people sometimes make mistakes. I had a friend who was fond of saying that "People like me are why they put erasers on pencils" when he would catch a mistake he'd made. honestly, if you consider the volume of coins that PCGS grades it is surprising that things like this don't happen more often.
it is only unfortunate that it happened in this instance with an expensive coin.
@keets said: The problem is that the person putting the label in the system and in the slab does not know enough to determine fake vs. real and proof vs. mint state when they do that final check on the really tough coins. That is where the expert is needed.
it is only unfortunate that it happened in this instance with an expensive coin.
Except that it wasn't an expensive coin. But I get you.
Lance.
Looking at the business strike among all those '09-VDB MP above makes it stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. I don't know how professional graders could make a mistake like that.
Anyone who might buy a coin where the slab has irregularities, if obvious, probably does not have a claim against PCGS. However, if they have certified a coin that has been certified in error, then PCGS bares that responsibility. But PCGS's damages will be limited to $56.00 because the coin was never sold based upon their grading, for $40.000. I am sure that our hosts will work this one out.
Again, the purchase price is irrelevant. If this is deemed a mechanical error (highly likely) PCGS's exposure is the cost of regrading and reslabbing it.
If a case is made that graders erred, feeling it was an MPL, then a payout could be very big. But that just won't happen...unless lawyers get involved (which could lead to a settlement).
Lance.
Damages ,lawyers and on .. where it counts and will hurt is in the opinion of collectors ,dealers and buyers of PCGS graded coins . Loss of confidence in PCGS graded coins is the biggie
How many other graded coins are out with faulty grades ? When the coin media latches on to this story any damage to the brand will be out in the open
Say it again .. CAC does do the industry good
@bestday said:
Damages ,lawyers and on .. where it counts and will hurt is in the opinion of collectors ,dealers and buyers of PCGS graded coins . Loss of confidence in PCGS graded coins is the biggie
How many other graded coins are out with faulty grades ? When the coin media latches on to this story any damage to the brand will be out in the open
Say it again .. CAC does do the industry good
It would be amusing if the owner submits it to CAC and it beans!
@bestday said:
Damages ,lawyers and on .. where it counts and will hurt is in the opinion of collectors ,dealers and buyers of PCGS graded coins . Loss of confidence in PCGS graded coins is the biggie
How many other graded coins are out with faulty grades ? When the coin media latches on to this story any damage to the brand will be out in the open
Say it again .. CAC does do the industry good
Well, considering there is a 1934 Texas Commem posted in the thread that was CAC'd as a 1935-S Texas Commem, I'm not sure I can agree that CAC is a fool-proof check against this. It seems CAC made the same mistake? It's possible there is another explanation admittedly, but that seems to be the most likely / apparent answer.
Comments
If you won a million dollars on a malfunctioning slot machine in Vegas would you get the $?
There's your answer. It's a malfunction (error.)
But what if the casino paid the money and then realized later the slot machine had malfunctioned. Would they have a legal claim to come after the money?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But how do you know for sure that the machine malfunctioned and that the casino isn't using that as an excuse to avoid paying out the money? Answer is that you don't know.
The guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL. Imagine if it were an MPL and another bidder won it for $65! It wasn't until he showed the coin around to a few local "experts" that the notion it might be a matte proof popped up. Still, cent expert Brian Wagner told him early on it was NOT a MPL. I'd probably keep the coin as is too just as a keepsake of what can go wrong in the TPG process. You still have the coin itself which is still worth $50. Makes a nice conversation piece. Though for sure down the road, even if it takes decades, someone is going to try and pawn it off as a real MPL because that's what the holder says....not to mention that Grandpa Larry "told us all the story" of his Cherry Pick of the Century that set the coin market on fire for weeks.
The Label/grade is PCGS opinion .....who ya gonna blame coin owner ? for wrong PCGS opinion ?
Now that PCGS yanked Cert # ID .. coin will go underground for who knows how long
Not necessarily. There was a forum member here that cherry picked both GSC and Centsles with true matte proof coins. I believe the pieces were Buffalo nickels.
Why are we discussing the forum member that cherried 2 unattributed Matte Proof Buffs? That forum member is a real expert and searches high and low for those. Larry is a newb who was taking pot luck shots with GSC. The fact is Larry's high bid was only $60. That was not nearly high enough to ensure you'd have a shot to win a $40,000 sleeper MPL advertised nationally from a leading dealer. I'll guarantee you that those Buff Cherry Picks took multiples of $60 to secure them....and even so they would be worth in the $1,000-$3,000 range....not $40,000. If you honestly felt you found a possible unattributed MPL on Ebay, would you only venture $60 towards winning it? A newbie might do that. I know I wouldn't. You'd have to ensure you at least cleared the price range of what a monster MS65 toner VDB would bring. Say $200? $300? $500? If there's a 2nd person on your heels, odds are it's a decent shot. If there isn't, then you'll get it for $60 in the end any ways. There was no such 2nd knowledgeable person bidding behind Larry. No one else considered the coin to have MPL potential....not at $55-$60...not on Ebay from GSC.
My point was that the price realized does not necessarily say anything about whether a coin is a business strike or a matte proof. It the coin is undetected or misattributed, it doesn't matter whether it is a $3k coin or a $40k coin. Overlooked is overlooked. Both buffalo nickels were picked up at small fractions of fair market value. The same is plausible for a wheat cent. You had previously written, "[t]he guy's original bid was only $60 on the coin so clearly, he was not bidding on it as a MPL."
And I disagree with your point. A $60 bid on this coin suggested that all the bidders and GSC did not see this coin as a potential MPL in any way, shape or form. What, Larry was going to "out-snipe" the entire CU Forum, PCGS/NGC dealers, CT members, and the entire Ebay numismatic world at the cherry pick game? Even if everyone else but Larry missed it, Larry's ridiculous $60 bid on a potential $40K cherry pick proved even he didn't think it was. If someone else believed it could be a MPL then THEY would have won it for $65....sorry Larry....you missed it.
Larry was risking maybe $10-$30 max above normal MS65 VDB prices, most of that for a color premium. The Buff cherry picks were a different story. I'm sure our Forum member paid well above $60 on those. I can see getting a MP Buff cherry pick for $100-$200 on a $1500 coin. I cannot see getting a MPL VDB cherry pick for $60 on a $40,000 coin. That ratio is outlandish. There's almost 0% risk. It just doesn't happen that way....and not to a Newb like Larry. It's obvious to me that Larry never saw this as MPL potential....until after the auction when he showed it around to discuss the strike, etc. That's my point. I've taken enough "shots" in my life to know what levels you have to stick your neck out to be assured of getting what you want. Only an idiot would have placed a max bid of $60 IF they really thought it had MPL potential....even a 5% shot would have been worth a $500-$1500 bid. Larry clearly doesn't understand risk vs. reward.
Here is a mislabeled (mechanical error) that I bought some time ago just because I liked the coin and thought the label was interesting. It is clearly a 1934 coin not a 1935-S as labeled. The mint designation is also wrong as there were no San Francisco mint coins in 1934.
So, the graders knew what they were grading but someone got the label wrong, really wrong. What I am wondering is what happened at CAC. Did they not see that the coin was labeled wrong? How is this coin in their database? Is it a 1934 or a 1935-S? Hmmm, maybe they don't check the coins quite as close as we all think that they do.
I never worried about it because the value wouldn't change. But now I am starting to re-consider. If Larry is going to get $40,000 then I want $40,000 too.
Not a lawyer but was a federal criminal investigator 18 years.
As he was officially notified by pcgs that it was an error if he sold it now as a proof he would be committing a crime under federal statute. Fraud requires intent to decieve and this would assuredly be intent. Had he sold it before the notice it would be almost impossible criminally. And i would guess very hard civilly.
Computerized. It would be opened and diagnostics run. In Vegas, at least, and I am sure others know better but I did have extended family involved in working with the casinos on things, the gambling and slots are pretty regulated and watched.
A big payout wouldn't be handed out without being checked on.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It shows at CAC as........................
Serial Number: 13632365
Grading Service: PCGS
Description: 1935-S Silver Commemoratives Texas 50C Type MS MS65
STATUS! BEANED
Thanks BAJJERFAN
So, does that make my 1934 over 1935-S a rare variety or an overdate?
You know in reality, the bidder that won didn't really lose anything, he bid 60 bucks on a coin and got a coin worth 80 to 90 bucks with color. In numismatics there is no free lunch...
Of course they would, I won thousands on a broken slot machine and it was broke for weeks . The casino took at least a month to figure out what was going on .
My father-law won over a hundred thousand dollars on the same broken machine too ...
I don't know where GSC gets their inventory? Maybe they are hotel buyers or just bulk buyers from dealers.
But there are collectors and those who inherit collections that could sell to GSC.
GSC currently has 1237 eBay listings and 1194 auctions.
So there business model is to move product on eBay and apparently they can sell coins for more than they pay for them.
It takes time to examine coins and perhaps they hire non-coin people to photograph and run their eBay sales?
I bought 5 coins from them once and I had to return them all. There was no problem doing that so they stand behind their coins
Wonder if I lost a million in a slot machine if I could claim it was because it malfunctioned?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
never mind, I did not like the way it quoted...my statement looked out of context.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I wonder if I would just keep it or try to trade it for 100 grading vouchers.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
. > @roadrunner said:
It does not matter if anyone realized what it is during bidding process. I bought a 1911 $2 1/2 Indian, and thought (by the pictures) that is was a plain 1911. Every other bidder must have thought that as well, as it went cheap. When I got it in hand, I discovered it was a 1911-D weak d.
This is a GREAT example of what I don't understand about the guarantee.
I am not asking PCGS, NGC, ANACS or CAC to tell me the date of the coin, I already know that even if I am not an expert. I would agree this is a "mechanical error" and I would send it back. A 10 year old could check this at the end of the process and see that it is incorrect. I do not need a professional grader to figure that out.
What I do expect from professional grading experts is that they stand behind their grade on the label including proof/not proof and also that they stand behind the coin being real and not fake. That is what I am paying them for. I expect them to get this correct 100% of the time. If they don't, I expect them to stand behind that guarantee. How can the original submitter be found liable for the 3rd parties error? That doesn't make sense to me. (This is where the thread actually became personal for me)
The problem is that the person putting the label in the system and in the slab does not know enough to determine fake vs. real and proof vs. mint state when they do that final check on the really tough coins. That is where the expert is needed. Anyone who works at PCGS can tell if the date is incorrect. That is a mechanical error. I don't need an expert to figure that out. The real/fake and MS/Proof are grading errors. There is a big difference in my opinion. The reason they are grading errors and not mechanical errors is because the common layman cannot tell the difference. I need an expert to see the difference. This is not the case with a date or mint mark error. Anyone who can read can tell the difference. A good attorney could easily show the difference by showing a date/mintmark mechanical error versus showing the coin in question on this thread. Anyone without any formal training could understand and see the date error. Only an expert would see the proof/MS error.
If it was me, I would put an actual professional grader at the end of your process after the label is made and the slab is complete if you want to prevent this from happening in the future. If you already do that, I would say they need some additional training. I would also stand behind my grade even when someone screwed up.
It is no different than when I take my car to a mechanic. Some mechanics stand behind their work, some don't. I will always go to the one that does. I recently had a mechanic eat about a $400 stupid mistake they made. I don't know anything about cars and they could have lied about it but they stood behind it because they are the experts and should have known better. Needless to say, I am a very loyal customer and tell all my friends about this mechanic.
I would love to hear some discussion on how my position is incorrect.
Here is my comment/querry on Rick's case.
I know quite a few dealers who submit coins under the pretense it will be purchased based on how it is graded,attributed, or what ever by TPG's. Would the original submitter 10 years ago be responsible for a coin they purchased based on the grade or attribution made by a TPG?
As long as he acquired it legally and ethically, how the coin came to be in the possession of the one who submitted it is irrelevant. How long he owned it before submitting it is irrelevant. What he thought it was when he bid for it is irrelevant.
I think it is more an ethics issue rather than a legal issue whether the submitter has PCGS fix the attribution of the 1909 VDB. It will cause harm in the future.
The coin that I have in to change from PR64RD to MS was originally submitted as a crossover from an ANACS PR64RD by a respected dealer. He was suprized as was my customer and PCGS as well that it was missattributed. Misakes get made and rather than dumping the coin in an auction to hurt someone else down the line, my customer agreed that it should be corrected.
True they would probably check the machine before they pay out just like the lottery validates your ticket before they cut the check. The thing is that the casino makes the call and you accept their decision, but you have no way of knowing if they are being truthful or not. People cheat for way more than a million and people cheat for less.
The coin is a boon to the specialty collectors that collect mislabeled/mechanical error TPG coins/slabs. What is it worth to these collectors? Will we ever see a PCGS "mechanical error" registry set?
( Just musing
)
The labels are essentially printed when the coin is received and entered into the system, at least that's what I'd deduce from the bodybagged coin/s that I've gotten back. Whoever prints the final insert is likely just printing a duplication whatever info is in the system. You'd need to audit the movement of the coin/submission from the time it was received until it shipped in order to find out where the "error" occurred.
The coin is OBVIOUSLY a Mint Error. PCGS and CAC both label/agree that it a 1935-S, so the Mint must have gotten it wrong. PCGS/CAC together trump the Mint, we all know that!
Dang Mint caint get anything right!
Label error ,mechanical error...... what was the 3 PCGS graders opinion of coin ..Proof or MS ? Did they say it was a Proof ?
In the past, I thought PCGS said a 'mechanical error' is something a beginning numismatist could determine - like a wrong year, or mintmark wrong, or well circulated coin called uncirculated.
I also thought PCGS authorized dealers had different terms than collectors club members.
No one said that. But a proof VDB does have to have the same diagnostics other proof VDBs have and the OP's coin doesn't.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I missed that, didn't see who said that. Obviously whoever did say that made a mistake or misspoke.
Completely agree. Correct the mistake and no innocents get hurt later.
If you can easily tell just by looking at the coin that the description on the holder is wrong, then the coin/holder combination is not covered by the PCGS Guarantee
thanks, cameonut, that pretty much ends things for any rational person.
I think in the end the total liability will be the auction price of the coin which was 60-something dollars? I think if the current owner sold it for $40K things would then be a different story.
since he knows now what he knows, he would be wise not to try to sell it for his windfall. that could land him in jail.
The problem is that the person putting the label in the system and in the slab does not know enough to determine fake vs. real and proof vs. mint state when they do that final check on the really tough coins. That is where the expert is needed.
I doubt this is it. I, for one, am willing to give whoever made the "clerical mistake" the benefit of the doubt while allowing that people sometimes make mistakes. I had a friend who was fond of saying that "People like me are why they put erasers on pencils" when he would catch a mistake he'd made. honestly, if you consider the volume of coins that PCGS grades it is surprising that things like this don't happen more often.
it is only unfortunate that it happened in this instance with an expensive coin.
Except that it wasn't an expensive coin. But I get you.
Lance.
I can't believe we're 7 pages in and there's no comment from the mother ship.
I think the secretarial post over at CT is probably the only public comment we will see. I'm even surprised they did that.
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Er. Ah. You sure about that????
Best, SH
Looking at the business strike among all those '09-VDB MP above makes it stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. I don't know how professional graders could make a mistake like that.
Actually, I don't think they did.
So, I think it's almost unanimous now, to the question posed by the OP...."And people say you shouldn't buy from Great Southern...."
Ayup...no change....for the vast majority of people, they probably shouldn't bother trying to buy from GSC.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Anyone who might buy a coin where the slab has irregularities, if obvious, probably does not have a claim against PCGS. However, if they have certified a coin that has been certified in error, then PCGS bares that responsibility. But PCGS's damages will be limited to $56.00 because the coin was never sold based upon their grading, for $40.000. I am sure that our hosts will work this one out.
But the best thread of the year so far....
OINK
Again, the purchase price is irrelevant. If this is deemed a mechanical error (highly likely) PCGS's exposure is the cost of regrading and reslabbing it.
If a case is made that graders erred, feeling it was an MPL, then a payout could be very big. But that just won't happen...unless lawyers get involved (which could lead to a settlement).
Lance.
Haint a gonna be either.
Damages ,lawyers and on .. where it counts and will hurt is in the opinion of collectors ,dealers and buyers of PCGS graded coins . Loss of confidence in PCGS graded coins is the biggie
How many other graded coins are out with faulty grades ? When the coin media latches on to this story any damage to the brand will be out in the open
Say it again .. CAC does do the industry good
It would be amusing if the owner submits it to CAC and it beans!
Well, considering there is a 1934 Texas Commem posted in the thread that was CAC'd as a 1935-S Texas Commem, I'm not sure I can agree that CAC is a fool-proof check against this. It seems CAC made the same mistake? It's possible there is another explanation admittedly, but that seems to be the most likely / apparent answer.