Could be a dagger for the God-fearing man = Blessings analogy. That would need a re-write.
Yes, the coin went through a panel of graders. It also has to go through the actual slabbing and labeling process. And now the grade review process. The owner could be right that the coin will never be for sale....if PCGS takes it back or changes their opinion. But, he did "have fun with his coin" while it lasted. Now standby for the rebuttal and bad-mouthing if the coin is regraded MS or AT. I got a chuckle reading the CT thread comments that we here at the forum are somehow below their "coin community" talk devoid of agendas. Yeah, right. Taking this coin off the market is the only right agenda if it is indeed not an MPL.
And strongly disagree about giving Mr. Pelf a few thousand dollars "for their troubles." We should all be so well compensated. Maybe a 1-5 year subscription to PCGS with some free grading + covering their submission expenses would be suitable. Let's see how Mr. Pelf handles this situation after he lauded PCGS for grading the coin right the first time around. And one outcome of this will no doubt lead to GSC getting some extra training in identifying matte proofs....which isn't going to bode well for our resident MP buffalo nickel cherry pickers.
Maybe the guy wasn't the submitter; someone else could have sent it in for him. He did not strike me as that competent in filling out forms unless he saw a huge incentive to do so. A lot of details need to come out, like how much was the submission charged? What are the actual facts about how this mistake was made, order entry error or something worse?
@logger7 said:
Maybe the guy wasn't the submitter; someone else could have sent it in for him. He did not strike me as that competent in filling out forms unless he saw a huge incentive to do so. A lot of details need to come out, like how much was the submission charged? What are the actual facts about how this mistake was made, order entry error or something worse?
I don't see any benefit to PCGS coming out and giving that kind of information. Their job is to remove the coin if it's improperly attributed, and not much else. The information is really between submitter and PCGS. No reason to post laundry in public. It's just a single occurrence out of the million or so coins they process each year.
@stash said:
My bowl of ice cream melted, reading all these posts . It's not over, til the fat lady sings ...
@deefree49 said:
Larry Pelf; PCGS wants the coin back for evaluation:
Good Afternoon,
This coin will need to come back to be reviewed. Please provide the following information:
Full Name
Shipping Address
Phone Number
I will be sending you step-by-step instructions on how to return this coin to PCGS to have the designation reviewed, I will also provide you with a pre-completed FedEx label to ship the coin back to PCGS for review under our account. This will all be free of charge and we will try to have these corrected and returned as quickly as possible.
Looks like the fat lady sung .. Lol ...
No Pun Intended, Stephanie .....
Wow is all I can say. Talk about a roller coaster ride. He killed it himself, if only he kept his mouth shut and sat on it for a bit he might have cashed in. I almost feel bad for him, almost.
LOL.. You think he will return the coin ?? Now he will hold it for years until memory falls away
I was thinking the same thing. Would you return it? Idk, tough call with that much money on the table.
This young guy hit the coin lotto...puts PCGS in a tough spot ...their rep is on the line, they need to get the coin off the market
I'm joining the party late, but since this thread popped over at CT, I've said this is not an MPL. Unfortunate for the buyer. I would have been just as proud, but boasting did not turn out well for him. How's the saying go?
"A man should never miss an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.."
@ChrisRx said:
Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.
PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..
Not a chance. It's entirely unnecessary and would be a dreadful precedent for a data entry error (which is how I expect it will be characterized).
Lance.
@mach1ne said:
I'm joining the party late, but since this thread popped over at CT, I've said this is not an MPL. Unfortunate for the buyer. I would have been just as proud, but boasting did not turn out well for him. How's the saying go?
"A man should never miss an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.."
Boasting was not wise, but honesty is the best policy (call me old-fashioned...)
Best thread i've read in months. Also in the boat its not a MPL, I got a large cent with a booger and a piece of hair encapsulated can I get 10K as well BTW its a pcgs slab.
@logger7 said:
It's in their holder, nothing they can do legally can force someone to return a coin to them for re-grading. PCGS probably has insurance policies to protect them against all types of snafus.
The final conclusion is yet to come. The response from L. Pelf is next. Whether they lash out at PCGS for taking away their $40,000 Lotto ticket....after already praising them for slabbing it as a MPL....or just take in stride as a "blessing" so no one got hurt if the coin did sell for $35K. God may have been watching out for the next owner as any number of B&M's could have forked over $10-$25K over the counter if this walked in. While many would have looked up the cert....not all of them would have. And if the coin was sold at a show, even fewer would have looked it up. Tune in next week for the next episode. Vegas Odds Makers are already furiously at work with the over/under.
PCGS will be paying zero cash to the submitter of this coin... and that's the right result. Sure, they will pay shipping both way to get this error fixed, but the submitter should not profit off a mistake.
As mentioned here on the forum before, PCGS made a $100k+ mechanical error on a submission of mine several years ago... sure, I had dreams of a new condo at the lake for a few minutes, but ultimately PCGS got the coin back, fixed the mistake and gave me some free grading vouchers for the hassle. That is what will most likely happen if the current owner plays ball.
If he chooses not to play ball, he'll likely be banned from ever submitting to PCGS going forward and will be liable forever if he now chooses to sell this to an unknowing party as a proof... if someone else comes forward down the road claiming ownership and tries to make a claim under the guarantee, PCGS will be going right to this original submitter to make that compensation.
Glad to see PCGS take quick action on this, well done!
I bet he now wishes he never posted this on CT, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?
I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?
@desslok said:
What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?
I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?
PCGS is just an opinion. If you are buying a $40,000 coin you should do some homework in advance of your purchase.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
if you go back to page one and click on the link in the OP for "cert # check" it takes you to the following page: pcgs.com/cert/83094854. that tells me that PCGS has invalidated the coin and are in the process of correcting things. that offers hope for any potential buyer if the coin is offered for sale, not finding it in the PCGS data base would be a clear red flag.
@oih82w8 said:
I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?
Anything is possible. I imagine it was graded generously at MS65RB because of the nice color and was entered incorrectly. Data entry errors cannot be 100% avoided.
LP: "Didn't see where you said I was going to sell it...No wasn't forsale and still not...Just was something for the Great Grand Kids to enjoy...YIS..LP."
But, what happens when the grand kids take this to sell someday and they get $40K from someone? What if old LP got hit by a car tomorrow and the family sells the coin to help pay for medical expenses? See the problem here Larry? Now there are some chuckle heads suggesting he take legal action by having a lawyer investigate PCGS and review their internal records.
He submitted it on the submission form as a 1909 VDB proof,
Receiving clerk looks at coin...says yup...1909 VDB,
Coin goes through grading, graders look at coin for their 5-10 seconds and say 65RB and look at the sheet quickly and say, "Yup, 1909 VDB. Next coin please." It may have been so obvious to them that it wasn't a proof that they never though twice about comparing it to the submission form.
Finalizer repeats step 3,
Certificate is printed from data entered by clerk in #2,
Voila - PR65 RB
Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.
This thread should be a case study in psychology 101. It has everything
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Should this 1796 1/2 $ fall in the same category with the engraved stars? It's been around sense 2009 and cert look up is still good. No expert but seams like a lot value would be lost in a details holder.
@ChrisRx said:
Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.
PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..
PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.
Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet
A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer
Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening
@ChrisRx said:
Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.
PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..
PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.
Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet
A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer
Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening
The vagueness of TPG guarantees (among other things) has always been a major concern of mine in this hobby; however, under the plain language of the guarantee, my opinion is that this is obviously not a proof and is a mechanical error which is excepted from the guarantee. As for publicity, I suspect PCGS would publicly disown/disclaim the coin like it did a MS70 Eisenhower Dollar that was included in a Stacks Auction that looked to be overgraded by at least four or five points. PCGS made a public announcement not to buy the coin and that the guarantee would not apply. It was described as a mechanical error. If I recall correctly, Stacks pulled the coin. I think the original submitter consigned it.
I predict the individual gets nothing other than a free reholder and a new label.
Interesting thread. I'm not at all familiar with matte proof Lincolns so I don't have an intuitive sense of how easy it is to tell the difference. With certain coins it's darn near impossible and/or controversial. Assuming that it's eminently obvious that three different graders didn't actually think it was a proof, it's certain that it's only a clerical (mechanical) error. As such, of course there's no reason to start talking about $40k guarantees.
It does raise certain questions though......
What happens if the guy kept it quiet, held on to it for a few years and sold it to a B&M, fellow collector, or a dealer? Sooner or later someone would figure it out. I'm sure our hosts would have records of the original submitter, but who gets left holding the bag in that scenario? The cert number lookup would check out. The chain of ownership might not even be traceable at that point. I'm guessing the grade guarantee would come into play in that case, but it would be interesting. I'm sure it's happened before.
How much responsibility does a TPG have to make sure mistakes aren't making it out of the door? While errors here aren't life-threatening the way they would be for an air traffic controller or surgeon, significant financial harm (or benefit) could result. What if the graders actually assigned an MS68 grade (two known in the entire series) to a Peace dollar it got out the door as an MS67 due to a typo? The owner of that coin would be out $50k and never know it! I'm sure there are a few of those sorts of errors floating around too.
Finally, why are the most vocal people on the planet always so darned unrefined?
He submitted it on the submission form as a 1909 VDB proof,
Receiving clerk looks at coin...says yup...1909 VDB,
Coin goes through grading, graders look at coin for their 5-10 seconds and say 65RB and look at the sheet quickly and say, "Yup, 1909 VDB. Next coin please." It may have been so obvious to them that it wasn't a proof that they never though twice about comparing it to the submission form.
Finalizer repeats step 3,
Certificate is printed from data entered by clerk in #2,
Voila - PR65 RB
Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.
@ChrisRx said:
Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.
PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..
PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.
Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet
A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer
Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening
The vagueness of TPG guarantees (among other things) has always been a major concern of mine in this hobby; however, under the plain language of the guarantee, my opinion is that this is obviously not a proof and is a mechanical error which is excepted from the guarantee. As for publicity, I suspect PCGS would publicly disown/disclaim the coin like it did a MS70 Eisenhower Dollar that was included in a Stacks Auction that looked to be overgraded by at least four or five points. PCGS made a public announcement not to buy the coin and that the guarantee would not apply. It was described as a mechanical error. If I recall correctly, Stacks pulled the coin. I think the original submitter consigned it.
I predict the individual gets nothing other than a free reholder and a new label.
@CA5MAN said:
Let's use a real example, the buyer of the first ever graded 1957-D Washington QuarterFS-901 Re-engraved Tail feathers referenced above, paid in excess of $4K for the coin.
It's a clear misattribution and most of the Washington Variety guys know it and anybody with eyes can see it by looking at the trueView.
I'd bet on it that one of our forum members made the coin (sent it in), and later sold it to the buyer.
Currently it sits in the #1 Washington Variety registry set. Fact is, it's a $15 dollar coin at best. Much like this thread, except with a sale and PCGS was informed over a year ago and nothings been done.
Cert#32856354
Kudos to the sharp eye forum members identifying ,outing the misgraded coin.. For sure, a dealer, coin collector in the future ,would have paid 5 figures for what is a $50 coin
@desslok said:
What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?
I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?
When you buy a graded coin you buy any RISK that may be associated with in the same way that you'd get any REWARDS associated with it. Works both ways. In this case you'd likely have to take the seller to court and prove he willfully defrauded you.
@oih82w8 said:
I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?
Anything is possible. I imagine it was graded generously at MS65RB because of the nice color and was entered incorrectly. Data entry errors cannot be 100% avoided.
He submitted it on the submission form as a 1909 VDB proof,
Receiving clerk looks at coin...says yup...1909 VDB,
Coin goes through grading, graders look at coin for their 5-10 seconds and say 65RB and look at the sheet quickly and say, "Yup, 1909 VDB. Next coin please." It may have been so obvious to them that it wasn't a proof that they never though twice about comparing it to the submission form.
Finalizer repeats step 3,
Certificate is printed from data entered by clerk in #2,
Voila - PR65 RB
Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.
Receiving clerks don't assign coin numbers, the graders do.
From the PCGS coin number lookup page.
"The PCGS Coin Lookup tables list preliminary coin numbers that are used to complete PCGS Submission forms. Certain coin numbers have been omitted from these tables to avoid misidentification of coins. PCGS graders assign more specific coin numbers when they grade your coins."
So what kind of simple error would result in the insert being messed up so badly?
@roadrunner said:
LP: "Didn't see where you said I was going to sell it...No wasn't forsale and still not...Just was something for the Great Grand Kids to enjoy...YIS..LP."
But, what happens when the grand kids take this to sell someday and they get $40K from someone? What if old LP got hit by a car tomorrow and the family sells the coin to help pay for medical expenses? See the problem here Larry? Now there are some chuckle heads suggesting he take legal action by having a lawyer investigate PCGS and review their internal records.
@BryceM said:
Interesting thread. I'm not at all familiar with matte proof Lincolns so I don't have an intuitive sense of how easy it is to tell the difference. With certain coins it's darn near impossible and/or controversial. Assuming that it's eminently obvious that three different graders didn't actually think it was a proof, it's certain that it's only a clerical (mechanical) error. As such, of course there's no reason to start talking about $40k guarantees.
It does raise certain questions though......
What happens if the guy kept it quiet, held on to it for a few years and sold it to a B&M, fellow collector, or a dealer? Sooner or later someone would figure it out. I'm sure our hosts would have records of the original submitter, but who gets left holding the bag in that scenario? The cert number lookup would check out. The chain of ownership might not even be traceable at that point. I'm guessing the grade guarantee would come into play in that case, but it would be interesting. I'm sure it's happened before.
How much responsibility does a TPG have to make sure mistakes aren't making it out of the door? While errors here aren't life-threatening the way they would be for an air traffic controller or surgeon, significant financial harm (or benefit) could result. What if the graders actually assigned an MS68 grade (two known in the entire series) to a Peace dollar it got out the door as an MS67 due to a typo? The owner of that coin would be out $50k and never know it! I'm sure there are a few of those sorts of errors floating around too.
Finally, why are the most vocal people on the planet always so darned unrefined?
If you could prove that the coin was sold to you in a deceitful manner, you'd have recourse, otherwise you're probaly SOL.
"The PCGS Coin Lookup tables list preliminary coin numbers that are used to complete PCGS Submission forms. Certain coin numbers have been omitted from these tables to avoid misidentification of coins. PCGS graders assign more specific coin numbers when they grade your coins."
So what kind of simple error would result in the insert being messed up so badly?
If that's actually true...I presume you just send them a box of coins without filling out anything in the table section of the submission form?
I think the referenced "more specific coin numbers" to be assigned by a grader would be those applicable to varieties and designations. I'd contend that the base 4 digit coin number is still entered somewhere based upon a cursory review by a receiving clerk's evaluation "1 Cent - Check, Lincoln - Check, 1909 - Check, VDB - Check." I'd be shocked if that clerk had enough knowledge to say proof or business strike in the case of the subject coin.
There's no question that the graders should have reassigned the coin number, but they didn't...just as was the case on my quarter. Except my receiving clerk's evaluation was just one step "1967 - Check."
The current online submission form says that entry of PCGS coin numbers is optional. The PCGS coin number listing is a PITA to find, but there is no listing for MPLs. I assume the submitter used # 2425 for 1909 VDB Lincoln. I expect that whoever enters the coins into the system verifies coin numbers and must have a way to flag those that the grader assigns.
The online submission form has the following option:
3302 1909 VDB 1C, RD PR
It's a lot easier to believe to me that the error would have started with an entry of #3302 and then been to change it to #3301 for RB after the 65 RB grade was assigned by the graders.
BTW - I'm really not arguing with you...just discussing and sharing my opinion of how it could have happened. Clearly there was a breakdown in some level of quality control for the coin to make it out of the PCGS offices.
From what I'm reading solely in this thread, it seems to be the "mechanical error" in printing a label is the ace-in-the-hole for PCGS not to pay out on their guarantee. Who can prove if it is or isn't? If that's the case I find it disappointing and the guarantee worth zero.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@ModCrewman said:
The online submission form has the following option:
3302 1909 VDB 1C, RD PR
It's a lot easier to believe to me that the error would have started with an entry of #3302 and then been to change it to #3301 for RB after the 65 RB grade was assigned by the graders.
BTW - I'm really not arguing with you...just discussing and sharing my opinion of how it could have happened. Clearly there was a breakdown in some level of quality control for the coin to make it out of the PCGS offices.
I don't have access to the online form. I guess I was looking at the print version where you have to find coin numbers yourself or let PCGS staff enter them. My error there. The coin number from the lookup is 2425. No clue how the submitter did his thing.
@ms70 said:
From what I'm reading solely in this thread, it seems to be the "mechanical error" in printing a label is the ace-in-the-hole for PCGS not to pay out on their guarantee. Who can prove if it is or isn't? If that's the case I find it disappointing and the guarantee worth zero.
Yep. We have neither the coin nor the submission form nor the other info that would be required to figger things out. If the coin gets sold as is, the buyer does so at his or her peril.
Comments
Could be a dagger for the God-fearing man = Blessings analogy. That would need a re-write.
Yes, the coin went through a panel of graders. It also has to go through the actual slabbing and labeling process. And now the grade review process. The owner could be right that the coin will never be for sale....if PCGS takes it back or changes their opinion. But, he did "have fun with his coin" while it lasted. Now standby for the rebuttal and bad-mouthing if the coin is regraded MS or AT. I got a chuckle reading the CT thread comments that we here at the forum are somehow below their "coin community" talk devoid of agendas. Yeah, right. Taking this coin off the market is the only right agenda if it is indeed not an MPL.
And strongly disagree about giving Mr. Pelf a few thousand dollars "for their troubles." We should all be so well compensated. Maybe a 1-5 year subscription to PCGS with some free grading + covering their submission expenses would be suitable. Let's see how Mr. Pelf handles this situation after he lauded PCGS for grading the coin right the first time around. And one outcome of this will no doubt lead to GSC getting some extra training in identifying matte proofs....which isn't going to bode well for our resident MP buffalo nickel cherry pickers.
Maybe the guy wasn't the submitter; someone else could have sent it in for him. He did not strike me as that competent in filling out forms unless he saw a huge incentive to do so. A lot of details need to come out, like how much was the submission charged? What are the actual facts about how this mistake was made, order entry error or something worse?
I don't see any benefit to PCGS coming out and giving that kind of information. Their job is to remove the coin if it's improperly attributed, and not much else. The information is really between submitter and PCGS. No reason to post laundry in public. It's just a single occurrence out of the million or so coins they process each year.
This young guy hit the coin lotto...puts PCGS in a tough spot ...their rep is on the line, they need to get the coin off the market
Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.
PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..
I'm joining the party late, but since this thread popped over at CT, I've said this is not an MPL. Unfortunate for the buyer. I would have been just as proud, but boasting did not turn out well for him. How's the saying go?
"A man should never miss an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.."
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Why would they fork out that cash over a typo?
malfunction voids all pays
Not a chance. It's entirely unnecessary and would be a dreadful precedent for a data entry error (which is how I expect it will be characterized).
Lance.
Boasting was not wise, but honesty is the best policy (call me old-fashioned...)
PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.
Best thread i've read in months. Also in the boat its not a MPL, I got a large cent with a booger and a piece of hair encapsulated can I get 10K as well BTW its a pcgs slab.
type2,CCHunter.
PCGS owes nothing but to correct their mechanical error. There's just no way three graders are going to misattribute a 1909 VDB Proof.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Read Terms & Conditions of Service rule #5.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
The cert number for the OP coin is not showing up in the database when I click the link.
Good progress! Thanks PCGS!
The final conclusion is yet to come. The response from L. Pelf is next. Whether they lash out at PCGS for taking away their $40,000 Lotto ticket....after already praising them for slabbing it as a MPL....or just take in stride as a "blessing" so no one got hurt if the coin did sell for $35K. God may have been watching out for the next owner as any number of B&M's could have forked over $10-$25K over the counter if this walked in. While many would have looked up the cert....not all of them would have. And if the coin was sold at a show, even fewer would have looked it up. Tune in next week for the next episode. Vegas Odds Makers are already furiously at work with the over/under.
PCGS will be paying zero cash to the submitter of this coin... and that's the right result. Sure, they will pay shipping both way to get this error fixed, but the submitter should not profit off a mistake.
As mentioned here on the forum before, PCGS made a $100k+ mechanical error on a submission of mine several years ago... sure, I had dreams of a new condo at the lake for a few minutes, but ultimately PCGS got the coin back, fixed the mistake and gave me some free grading vouchers for the hassle. That is what will most likely happen if the current owner plays ball.
If he chooses not to play ball, he'll likely be banned from ever submitting to PCGS going forward and will be liable forever if he now chooses to sell this to an unknowing party as a proof... if someone else comes forward down the road claiming ownership and tries to make a claim under the guarantee, PCGS will be going right to this original submitter to make that compensation.
Glad to see PCGS take quick action on this, well done!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I bet he now wishes he never posted this on CT, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?
I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?
PCGS is just an opinion. If you are buying a $40,000 coin you should do some homework in advance of your purchase.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
if you go back to page one and click on the link in the OP for "cert # check" it takes you to the following page: pcgs.com/cert/83094854. that tells me that PCGS has invalidated the coin and are in the process of correcting things. that offers hope for any potential buyer if the coin is offered for sale, not finding it in the PCGS data base would be a clear red flag.
kudos to PCGS.
Anything is possible. I imagine it was graded generously at MS65RB because of the nice color and was entered incorrectly. Data entry errors cannot be 100% avoided.
Drama.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
There's an 1893-S Morgan with AU Details in there. Another GSC pickup?
And Larry Pelf has been posting away on CoinTalk today. One with a threat to the whistleblower.
Maybe they could change the click-on result to a dragon coming up with godzilla sound effects? http://dragon.images3.org/images/gallery/Scary_dragon_breathing_with_fire_by_Oustins.jpg
"Tic tac dough" had a game ending "dragon" too.
LP: "Didn't see where you said I was going to sell it...No wasn't forsale and still not...Just was something for the Great Grand Kids to enjoy...YIS..LP."
But, what happens when the grand kids take this to sell someday and they get $40K from someone? What if old LP got hit by a car tomorrow and the family sells the coin to help pay for medical expenses? See the problem here Larry? Now there are some chuckle heads suggesting he take legal action by having a lawyer investigate PCGS and review their internal records.
I have "been there-done that" and my consolation prize was one free Regular submission.
My guess on how it occurred is:
Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.
This thread should be a case study in psychology 101. It has everything
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Should this 1796 1/2 $ fall in the same category with the engraved stars? It's been around sense 2009 and cert look up is still good. No expert but seams like a lot value would be lost in a details holder.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-dollars/half-dollars/1796-50c-16-stars-fine-15-pcgs/a/1127-566.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet
A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer
Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening
The vagueness of TPG guarantees (among other things) has always been a major concern of mine in this hobby; however, under the plain language of the guarantee, my opinion is that this is obviously not a proof and is a mechanical error which is excepted from the guarantee. As for publicity, I suspect PCGS would publicly disown/disclaim the coin like it did a MS70 Eisenhower Dollar that was included in a Stacks Auction that looked to be overgraded by at least four or five points. PCGS made a public announcement not to buy the coin and that the guarantee would not apply. It was described as a mechanical error. If I recall correctly, Stacks pulled the coin. I think the original submitter consigned it.
I predict the individual gets nothing other than a free reholder and a new label.
Interesting thread. I'm not at all familiar with matte proof Lincolns so I don't have an intuitive sense of how easy it is to tell the difference. With certain coins it's darn near impossible and/or controversial. Assuming that it's eminently obvious that three different graders didn't actually think it was a proof, it's certain that it's only a clerical (mechanical) error. As such, of course there's no reason to start talking about $40k guarantees.
It does raise certain questions though......
What happens if the guy kept it quiet, held on to it for a few years and sold it to a B&M, fellow collector, or a dealer? Sooner or later someone would figure it out. I'm sure our hosts would have records of the original submitter, but who gets left holding the bag in that scenario? The cert number lookup would check out. The chain of ownership might not even be traceable at that point. I'm guessing the grade guarantee would come into play in that case, but it would be interesting. I'm sure it's happened before.
How much responsibility does a TPG have to make sure mistakes aren't making it out of the door? While errors here aren't life-threatening the way they would be for an air traffic controller or surgeon, significant financial harm (or benefit) could result. What if the graders actually assigned an MS68 grade (two known in the entire series) to a Peace dollar it got out the door as an MS67 due to a typo? The owner of that coin would be out $50k and never know it! I'm sure there are a few of those sorts of errors floating around too.
Finally, why are the most vocal people on the planet always so darned unrefined?
Isn't the guarantee different for 'authorized dealers' versus 'newby collectors' ?
How many > @cameonut2011 said:
Kudos to the sharp eye forum members identifying ,outing the misgraded coin.. For sure, a dealer, coin collector in the future ,would have paid 5 figures for what is a $50 coin
Would you want that in writing BEFORE you returned the coin?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
When you buy a graded coin you buy any RISK that may be associated with in the same way that you'd get any REWARDS associated with it. Works both ways. In this case you'd likely have to take the seller to court and prove he willfully defrauded you.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Receiving clerks don't assign coin numbers, the graders do.
From the PCGS coin number lookup page.
"The PCGS Coin Lookup tables list preliminary coin numbers that are used to complete PCGS Submission forms. Certain coin numbers have been omitted from these tables to avoid misidentification of coins. PCGS graders assign more specific coin numbers when they grade your coins."
So what kind of simple error would result in the insert being messed up so badly?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Caveat Emptor applies here.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
It should apply to the owner of the coin be they the submitter or not.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
If you could prove that the coin was sold to you in a deceitful manner, you'd have recourse, otherwise you're probaly SOL.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
If that's actually true...I presume you just send them a box of coins without filling out anything in the table section of the submission form?
I think the referenced "more specific coin numbers" to be assigned by a grader would be those applicable to varieties and designations. I'd contend that the base 4 digit coin number is still entered somewhere based upon a cursory review by a receiving clerk's evaluation "1 Cent - Check, Lincoln - Check, 1909 - Check, VDB - Check." I'd be shocked if that clerk had enough knowledge to say proof or business strike in the case of the subject coin.
There's no question that the graders should have reassigned the coin number, but they didn't...just as was the case on my quarter. Except my receiving clerk's evaluation was just one step "1967 - Check."
The current online submission form says that entry of PCGS coin numbers is optional. The PCGS coin number listing is a PITA to find, but there is no listing for MPLs. I assume the submitter used # 2425 for 1909 VDB Lincoln. I expect that whoever enters the coins into the system verifies coin numbers and must have a way to flag those that the grader assigns.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The online submission form has the following option:
3302 1909 VDB 1C, RD PR
It's a lot easier to believe to me that the error would have started with an entry of #3302 and then been to change it to #3301 for RB after the 65 RB grade was assigned by the graders.
BTW - I'm really not arguing with you...just discussing and sharing my opinion of how it could have happened. Clearly there was a breakdown in some level of quality control for the coin to make it out of the PCGS offices.
From what I'm reading solely in this thread, it seems to be the "mechanical error" in printing a label is the ace-in-the-hole for PCGS not to pay out on their guarantee. Who can prove if it is or isn't? If that's the case I find it disappointing and the guarantee worth zero.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't have access to the online form. I guess I was looking at the print version where you have to find coin numbers yourself or let PCGS staff enter them. My error there. The coin number from the lookup is 2425. No clue how the submitter did his thing.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Yep. We have neither the coin nor the submission form nor the other info that would be required to figger things out. If the coin gets sold as is, the buyer does so at his or her peril.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876