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And people say you shouldn't buy from Great Southern....

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  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2017 9:02PM

    Could be a dagger for the God-fearing man = Blessings analogy. That would need a re-write.

    Yes, the coin went through a panel of graders. It also has to go through the actual slabbing and labeling process. And now the grade review process. The owner could be right that the coin will never be for sale....if PCGS takes it back or changes their opinion. But, he did "have fun with his coin" while it lasted. Now standby for the rebuttal and bad-mouthing if the coin is regraded MS or AT. I got a chuckle reading the CT thread comments that we here at the forum are somehow below their "coin community" talk devoid of agendas. Yeah, right. Taking this coin off the market is the only right agenda if it is indeed not an MPL.

    And strongly disagree about giving Mr. Pelf a few thousand dollars "for their troubles." We should all be so well compensated. Maybe a 1-5 year subscription to PCGS with some free grading + covering their submission expenses would be suitable. Let's see how Mr. Pelf handles this situation after he lauded PCGS for grading the coin right the first time around. And one outcome of this will no doubt lead to GSC getting some extra training in identifying matte proofs....which isn't going to bode well for our resident MP buffalo nickel cherry pickers.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe the guy wasn't the submitter; someone else could have sent it in for him. He did not strike me as that competent in filling out forms unless he saw a huge incentive to do so. A lot of details need to come out, like how much was the submission charged? What are the actual facts about how this mistake was made, order entry error or something worse?

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2017 11:10PM

    @logger7 said:
    Maybe the guy wasn't the submitter; someone else could have sent it in for him. He did not strike me as that competent in filling out forms unless he saw a huge incentive to do so. A lot of details need to come out, like how much was the submission charged? What are the actual facts about how this mistake was made, order entry error or something worse?

    I don't see any benefit to PCGS coming out and giving that kind of information. Their job is to remove the coin if it's improperly attributed, and not much else. The information is really between submitter and PCGS. No reason to post laundry in public. It's just a single occurrence out of the million or so coins they process each year.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,239 ✭✭✭✭

    @BruceS said:

    @bestday said:

    @BruceS said:

    @stash said:

    @stash said:
    My bowl of ice cream melted, reading all these posts . It's not over, til the fat lady sings ...

    @deefree49 said:
    Larry Pelf; PCGS wants the coin back for evaluation:

    Good Afternoon,

    This coin will need to come back to be reviewed. Please provide the following information:

    Full Name

    Shipping Address

    Phone Number

    I will be sending you step-by-step instructions on how to return this coin to PCGS to have the designation reviewed, I will also provide you with a pre-completed FedEx label to ship the coin back to PCGS for review under our account. This will all be free of charge and we will try to have these corrected and returned as quickly as possible.

    Thank you,

    http://www.pcgs.com/ezine/imagesforweb/email-sig-pcgs-shield-logo-line.png
    Alma (Stephanie) Salgado
    Customer Service Representative
    p 800.447.8848 | f 949.567.1253 | PCGS.com

    Looks like the fat lady sung .. Lol ...
    No Pun Intended, Stephanie .....

    Wow is all I can say. Talk about a roller coaster ride. He killed it himself, if only he kept his mouth shut and sat on it for a bit he might have cashed in. I almost feel bad for him, almost.

    LOL.. You think he will return the coin ?? Now he will hold it for years until memory falls away

    I was thinking the same thing. Would you return it? Idk, tough call with that much money on the table.

    This young guy hit the coin lotto...puts PCGS in a tough spot ...their rep is on the line, they need to get the coin off the market
    :#

  • ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭

    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    image
  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,239 ✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

  • MonsterCoinzMonsterCoinz Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm joining the party late, but since this thread popped over at CT, I've said this is not an MPL. Unfortunate for the buyer. I would have been just as proud, but boasting did not turn out well for him. How's the saying go?
    "A man should never miss an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.."

    www.MonsterCoinz.com | My Toned Showcase

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  • ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    Why would they fork out that cash over a typo?

    malfunction voids all pays

    image
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2017 9:27PM

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    Not a chance. It's entirely unnecessary and would be a dreadful precedent for a data entry error (which is how I expect it will be characterized).
    Lance.

  • ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭

    @mach1ne said:
    I'm joining the party late, but since this thread popped over at CT, I've said this is not an MPL. Unfortunate for the buyer. I would have been just as proud, but boasting did not turn out well for him. How's the saying go?
    "A man should never miss an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.."

    Boasting was not wise, but honesty is the best policy (call me old-fashioned...)

    image
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.

  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭

    Best thread i've read in months. Also in the boat its not a MPL, I got a large cent with a booger and a piece of hair encapsulated can I get 10K as well BTW its a pcgs slab.

    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • robecrobec Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS owes nothing but to correct their mechanical error. There's just no way three graders are going to misattribute a 1909 VDB Proof.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,949 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    It's in their holder, nothing they can do legally can force someone to return a coin to them for re-grading. PCGS probably has insurance policies to protect them against all types of snafus.

    Read Terms & Conditions of Service rule #5.

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,530 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The cert number for the OP coin is not showing up in the database when I click the link.


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 12:11AM

    Good progress! Thanks PCGS!

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 6:04AM

    The final conclusion is yet to come. The response from L. Pelf is next. Whether they lash out at PCGS for taking away their $40,000 Lotto ticket....after already praising them for slabbing it as a MPL....or just take in stride as a "blessing" so no one got hurt if the coin did sell for $35K. God may have been watching out for the next owner as any number of B&M's could have forked over $10-$25K over the counter if this walked in. While many would have looked up the cert....not all of them would have. And if the coin was sold at a show, even fewer would have looked it up. Tune in next week for the next episode. Vegas Odds Makers are already furiously at work with the over/under.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS will be paying zero cash to the submitter of this coin... and that's the right result. Sure, they will pay shipping both way to get this error fixed, but the submitter should not profit off a mistake.

    As mentioned here on the forum before, PCGS made a $100k+ mechanical error on a submission of mine several years ago... sure, I had dreams of a new condo at the lake for a few minutes, but ultimately PCGS got the coin back, fixed the mistake and gave me some free grading vouchers for the hassle. That is what will most likely happen if the current owner plays ball.

    If he chooses not to play ball, he'll likely be banned from ever submitting to PCGS going forward and will be liable forever if he now chooses to sell this to an unknowing party as a proof... if someone else comes forward down the road claiming ownership and tries to make a claim under the guarantee, PCGS will be going right to this original submitter to make that compensation.

    Glad to see PCGS take quick action on this, well done!

    :+1:

  • edited February 11, 2017 12:03AM
    This content has been removed.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,689 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bet he now wishes he never posted this on CT, lol..



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • desslokdesslok Posts: 310 ✭✭✭

    What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?

    I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?

  • 1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @desslok said:
    What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?

    I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?

    PCGS is just an opinion. If you are buying a $40,000 coin you should do some homework in advance of your purchase.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if you go back to page one and click on the link in the OP for "cert # check" it takes you to the following page: pcgs.com/cert/83094854. that tells me that PCGS has invalidated the coin and are in the process of correcting things. that offers hope for any potential buyer if the coin is offered for sale, not finding it in the PCGS data base would be a clear red flag.

    kudos to PCGS.

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:
    I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?

    Anything is possible. I imagine it was graded generously at MS65RB because of the nice color and was entered incorrectly. Data entry errors cannot be 100% avoided.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 5:54AM
  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @lusterlover said:
    I'm curious why Brian Wagner said no.....
    I'd love to see a blow up of the reverse.

    big image link warning.

    https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/83094854_Max.jpg

    added

    cf-bn - images

    cf-rb - images

    cf-rd - images

    secure service

    851 - nothing
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094852 - 54p 1c 65rd
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094853 - 54p 1c 65rd
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094854 - cha ching?
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094855 - 20s 1c au det
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094856 - 96 1c vf det
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094857 - 89cc $1 au det
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094858 - 93s $1 au det
    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/83094859 - 70 $1 au det
    i stopped here
    .

    There's an 1893-S Morgan with AU Details in there. Another GSC pickup?

    And Larry Pelf has been posting away on CoinTalk today. One with a threat to the whistleblower.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 5:37AM

    Maybe they could change the click-on result to a dragon coming up with godzilla sound effects? http://dragon.images3.org/images/gallery/Scary_dragon_breathing_with_fire_by_Oustins.jpg
    "Tic tac dough" had a game ending "dragon" too.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 6:23AM

    LP: "Didn't see where you said I was going to sell it...No wasn't forsale and still not...Just was something for the Great Grand Kids to enjoy...YIS..LP."

    But, what happens when the grand kids take this to sell someday and they get $40K from someone? What if old LP got hit by a car tomorrow and the family sells the coin to help pay for medical expenses? See the problem here Larry? Now there are some chuckle heads suggesting he take legal action by having a lawyer investigate PCGS and review their internal records.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    I personally hope PCGS gives him a "consolation prize" of a couple grand or so as an apology.

    I have "been there-done that" and my consolation prize was one free Regular submission.

  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 7:16AM

    My guess on how it occurred is:

    1. He submitted it on the submission form as a 1909 VDB proof,
    2. Receiving clerk looks at coin...says yup...1909 VDB,
    3. Coin goes through grading, graders look at coin for their 5-10 seconds and say 65RB and look at the sheet quickly and say, "Yup, 1909 VDB. Next coin please." It may have been so obvious to them that it wasn't a proof that they never though twice about comparing it to the submission form.
    4. Finalizer repeats step 3,
    5. Certificate is printed from data entered by clerk in #2,
    6. Voila - PR65 RB

    Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.

  • JustMe2JustMe2 Posts: 180 ✭✭

    Should this 1796 1/2 $ fall in the same category with the engraved stars? It's been around sense 2009 and cert look up is still good. No expert but seams like a lot value would be lost in a details holder.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-dollars/half-dollars/1796-50c-16-stars-fine-15-pcgs/a/1127-566.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,239 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.

    Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet

    A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
    The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer

    Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bestday said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.

    Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet

    A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
    The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer

    Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening

    The vagueness of TPG guarantees (among other things) has always been a major concern of mine in this hobby; however, under the plain language of the guarantee, my opinion is that this is obviously not a proof and is a mechanical error which is excepted from the guarantee. As for publicity, I suspect PCGS would publicly disown/disclaim the coin like it did a MS70 Eisenhower Dollar that was included in a Stacks Auction that looked to be overgraded by at least four or five points. PCGS made a public announcement not to buy the coin and that the guarantee would not apply. It was described as a mechanical error. If I recall correctly, Stacks pulled the coin. I think the original submitter consigned it.

    I predict the individual gets nothing other than a free reholder and a new label.

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting thread. I'm not at all familiar with matte proof Lincolns so I don't have an intuitive sense of how easy it is to tell the difference. With certain coins it's darn near impossible and/or controversial. Assuming that it's eminently obvious that three different graders didn't actually think it was a proof, it's certain that it's only a clerical (mechanical) error. As such, of course there's no reason to start talking about $40k guarantees.

    It does raise certain questions though......

    What happens if the guy kept it quiet, held on to it for a few years and sold it to a B&M, fellow collector, or a dealer? Sooner or later someone would figure it out. I'm sure our hosts would have records of the original submitter, but who gets left holding the bag in that scenario? The cert number lookup would check out. The chain of ownership might not even be traceable at that point. I'm guessing the grade guarantee would come into play in that case, but it would be interesting. I'm sure it's happened before.

    How much responsibility does a TPG have to make sure mistakes aren't making it out of the door? While errors here aren't life-threatening the way they would be for an air traffic controller or surgeon, significant financial harm (or benefit) could result. What if the graders actually assigned an MS68 grade (two known in the entire series) to a Peace dollar it got out the door as an MS67 due to a typo? The owner of that coin would be out $50k and never know it! I'm sure there are a few of those sorts of errors floating around too.

    Finally, why are the most vocal people on the planet always so darned unrefined?

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Isn't the guarantee different for 'authorized dealers' versus 'newby collectors' ?

  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,239 ✭✭✭✭

    @ModCrewman said:
    My guess on how it occurred is:

    1. He submitted it on the submission form as a 1909 VDB proof,
    2. Receiving clerk looks at coin...says yup...1909 VDB,
    3. Coin goes through grading, graders look at coin for their 5-10 seconds and say 65RB and look at the sheet quickly and say, "Yup, 1909 VDB. Next coin please." It may have been so obvious to them that it wasn't a proof that they never though twice about comparing it to the submission form.
    4. Finalizer repeats step 3,
    5. Certificate is printed from data entered by clerk in #2,
    6. Voila - PR65 RB

    Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.

    How many > @cameonut2011 said:

    @bestday said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    PCGS will give him nothing. Under its guarantee, PCGS doesn't owe him anything.

    Amusing to see PCGS owes nothing .of course so,, Does PGCS like to this removed from public hand ? you bet

    A dealer friend stated last night .... if holder of the alleged proof wanted to sell to PCGS .,all he needed was to take the coin to a major show floor and try to get a bid for selling to a show dealer . Imagine the negative buzz for PCGS
    The negative PCGS grading prowess publicity would be a downer

    Little wonder. would CAC bean this coin ? Earlier thread this week on CAC , enlightening

    The vagueness of TPG guarantees (among other things) has always been a major concern of mine in this hobby; however, under the plain language of the guarantee, my opinion is that this is obviously not a proof and is a mechanical error which is excepted from the guarantee. As for publicity, I suspect PCGS would publicly disown/disclaim the coin like it did a MS70 Eisenhower Dollar that was included in a Stacks Auction that looked to be overgraded by at least four or five points. PCGS made a public announcement not to buy the coin and that the guarantee would not apply. It was described as a mechanical error. If I recall correctly, Stacks pulled the coin. I think the original submitter consigned it.

    I predict the individual gets nothing other than a free reholder and a new label.

    @CA5MAN said:
    Let's use a real example, the buyer of the first ever graded 1957-D Washington QuarterFS-901 Re-engraved Tail feathers referenced above, paid in excess of $4K for the coin.

    It's a clear misattribution and most of the Washington Variety guys know it and anybody with eyes can see it by looking at the trueView.

    I'd bet on it that one of our forum members made the coin (sent it in), and later sold it to the buyer.

    Currently it sits in the #1 Washington Variety registry set. Fact is, it's a $15 dollar coin at best. Much like this thread, except with a sale and PCGS was informed over a year ago and nothings been done.

    Cert#32856354

    Kudos to the sharp eye forum members identifying ,outing the misgraded coin.. For sure, a dealer, coin collector in the future ,would have paid 5 figures for what is a $50 coin B)

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bestday said:

    @ChrisRx said:
    Pcgs owes him nothing other than free shipping to and from for the proper grade/body bag.

    PCGS will end up buying back the coin for $10,000-$20,000 ....chump change compared to the hit on their name if coin remains in public hand ..

    Would you want that in writing BEFORE you returned the coin?

    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @desslok said:
    What would have happened if that guy had sold it for 40K to an unsuspecting collector, and that collector years later would have taken it to an auction house and they said "no way". Would PCGS then have reimbursed him for his 40K? Or would they cite "mechanical error" and claim it is "obvious" that the coin is not a proof?

    I mean, it may be obvious to a handful of specialist experts in the field that know how to identify die markers and such, but for us common people, we rely on PCGS certification and expert opinion. I mean, that's what it's there for, isn't it?

    When you buy a graded coin you buy any RISK that may be associated with in the same way that you'd get any REWARDS associated with it. Works both ways. In this case you'd likely have to take the seller to court and prove he willfully defrauded you.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VanHalen said:

    @oih82w8 said:
    I wonder if there was an actual PR65 VDB is the same building which got the certs switched around? Anything is possible. Could you imaging the stink that the submitter off an actual VDB proof would be thinking after it received an MS or details grade?

    Anything is possible. I imagine it was graded generously at MS65RB because of the nice color and was entered incorrectly. Data entry errors cannot be 100% avoided.

    @ModCrewman said:
    My guess on how it occurred is:

    1. He submitted it on the submission form as a 1909 VDB proof,
    2. Receiving clerk looks at coin...says yup...1909 VDB,
    3. Coin goes through grading, graders look at coin for their 5-10 seconds and say 65RB and look at the sheet quickly and say, "Yup, 1909 VDB. Next coin please." It may have been so obvious to them that it wasn't a proof that they never though twice about comparing it to the submission form.
    4. Finalizer repeats step 3,
    5. Certificate is printed from data entered by clerk in #2,
    6. Voila - PR65 RB

    Why do I believe this is the case? This thread is why. Do I think for one second that they thought my quarter was a nickel? No, I don't. Do I believe that no one bothered to compare it to the submission form I prepared? Yes, I do.

    Receiving clerks don't assign coin numbers, the graders do.

    From the PCGS coin number lookup page.

    "The PCGS Coin Lookup tables list preliminary coin numbers that are used to complete PCGS Submission forms. Certain coin numbers have been omitted from these tables to avoid misidentification of coins. PCGS graders assign more specific coin numbers when they grade your coins."

    So what kind of simple error would result in the insert being messed up so badly?

    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:
    LP: "Didn't see where you said I was going to sell it...No wasn't forsale and still not...Just was something for the Great Grand Kids to enjoy...YIS..LP."

    But, what happens when the grand kids take this to sell someday and they get $40K from someone? What if old LP got hit by a car tomorrow and the family sells the coin to help pay for medical expenses? See the problem here Larry? Now there are some chuckle heads suggesting he take legal action by having a lawyer investigate PCGS and review their internal records.

    Caveat Emptor applies here.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    Isn't the guarantee different for 'authorized dealers' versus 'newby collectors' ?

    It should apply to the owner of the coin be they the submitter or not.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    Interesting thread. I'm not at all familiar with matte proof Lincolns so I don't have an intuitive sense of how easy it is to tell the difference. With certain coins it's darn near impossible and/or controversial. Assuming that it's eminently obvious that three different graders didn't actually think it was a proof, it's certain that it's only a clerical (mechanical) error. As such, of course there's no reason to start talking about $40k guarantees.

    It does raise certain questions though......

    What happens if the guy kept it quiet, held on to it for a few years and sold it to a B&M, fellow collector, or a dealer? Sooner or later someone would figure it out. I'm sure our hosts would have records of the original submitter, but who gets left holding the bag in that scenario? The cert number lookup would check out. The chain of ownership might not even be traceable at that point. I'm guessing the grade guarantee would come into play in that case, but it would be interesting. I'm sure it's happened before.

    How much responsibility does a TPG have to make sure mistakes aren't making it out of the door? While errors here aren't life-threatening the way they would be for an air traffic controller or surgeon, significant financial harm (or benefit) could result. What if the graders actually assigned an MS68 grade (two known in the entire series) to a Peace dollar it got out the door as an MS67 due to a typo? The owner of that coin would be out $50k and never know it! I'm sure there are a few of those sorts of errors floating around too.

    Finally, why are the most vocal people on the planet always so darned unrefined?

    If you could prove that the coin was sold to you in a deceitful manner, you'd have recourse, otherwise you're probaly SOL.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:
    Receiving clerks don't assign coin numbers, the graders do.

    From the PCGS coin number lookup page.

    "The PCGS Coin Lookup tables list preliminary coin numbers that are used to complete PCGS Submission forms. Certain coin numbers have been omitted from these tables to avoid misidentification of coins. PCGS graders assign more specific coin numbers when they grade your coins."

    So what kind of simple error would result in the insert being messed up so badly?

    If that's actually true...I presume you just send them a box of coins without filling out anything in the table section of the submission form?

    I think the referenced "more specific coin numbers" to be assigned by a grader would be those applicable to varieties and designations. I'd contend that the base 4 digit coin number is still entered somewhere based upon a cursory review by a receiving clerk's evaluation "1 Cent - Check, Lincoln - Check, 1909 - Check, VDB - Check." I'd be shocked if that clerk had enough knowledge to say proof or business strike in the case of the subject coin.

    There's no question that the graders should have reassigned the coin number, but they didn't...just as was the case on my quarter. Except my receiving clerk's evaluation was just one step "1967 - Check."

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The current online submission form says that entry of PCGS coin numbers is optional. The PCGS coin number listing is a PITA to find, but there is no listing for MPLs. I assume the submitter used # 2425 for 1909 VDB Lincoln. I expect that whoever enters the coins into the system verifies coin numbers and must have a way to flag those that the grader assigns.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The online submission form has the following option:

    3302 1909 VDB 1C, RD PR

    It's a lot easier to believe to me that the error would have started with an entry of #3302 and then been to change it to #3301 for RB after the 65 RB grade was assigned by the graders.

    BTW - I'm really not arguing with you...just discussing and sharing my opinion of how it could have happened. Clearly there was a breakdown in some level of quality control for the coin to make it out of the PCGS offices.

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2017 1:17PM

    From what I'm reading solely in this thread, it seems to be the "mechanical error" in printing a label is the ace-in-the-hole for PCGS not to pay out on their guarantee. Who can prove if it is or isn't? If that's the case I find it disappointing and the guarantee worth zero.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ModCrewman said:
    The online submission form has the following option:

    3302 1909 VDB 1C, RD PR

    It's a lot easier to believe to me that the error would have started with an entry of #3302 and then been to change it to #3301 for RB after the 65 RB grade was assigned by the graders.

    BTW - I'm really not arguing with you...just discussing and sharing my opinion of how it could have happened. Clearly there was a breakdown in some level of quality control for the coin to make it out of the PCGS offices.

    I don't have access to the online form. I guess I was looking at the print version where you have to find coin numbers yourself or let PCGS staff enter them. My error there. The coin number from the lookup is 2425. No clue how the submitter did his thing.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms70 said:
    From what I'm reading solely in this thread, it seems to be the "mechanical error" in printing a label is the ace-in-the-hole for PCGS not to pay out on their guarantee. Who can prove if it is or isn't? If that's the case I find it disappointing and the guarantee worth zero.

    Yep. We have neither the coin nor the submission form nor the other info that would be required to figger things out. If the coin gets sold as is, the buyer does so at his or her peril.

    theknowitalltroll;

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