Based on your own explicit declarations, I realize that you see the world through only black and white, right or wrong, Coke or Pepsi. But as I've stated, actions and viewpoints in the real world, lie on a spectrum.
So I take it you do not believe in absolute truth? You know that would be a very slippery slope.
And you refused to answer the question. Why is flag burning disrespectful, but sitting/kneeling during the anthem not disrespectful.
What is there to even answer? They're inherently different as they are completely different acts. According to you, a person who stabs an individual to death is no more culpable of murder than a person who sits idly by doing nothing about it.
They are both examples of disrespecting the flag. You can do many different things to disrespect the flag. why are some ok (sitting during anthem) and some not ok (burning) very simple question. You just are hesitant to answer because you have backed yourself into a corner in this discussion.
And no, your murder example is a little silly. A better example would be manslaughter vs murder, but even then it wouldn't work.
So, again, do I understand correctly that you take a postmodernist view and don't believe in absolute truth? If that is the case, it will be very difficult for us to come to any sort of common ground in this discussion as we would have very different paradigms through which we view the world.
Originally posted by: craig44 To over half the people polled about this little protest. I guess I figured that was somewhat obvious.
So he's disrespecting individual people?
I think you said it best Craig, racist people will project meaning into these actions.
Kneeling during a song isn't disrespecting Joe-Schmo in Georgia, but Joe-Schmo takes offense to a black man not loving America as much as him. I get it.
To over half the people polled about this little protest. I guess I figured that was somewhat obvious.
So he's disrespecting individual people?
I think you said it best Craig, racist people will project meaning into these actions.
Kneeling during a song isn't disrespecting Joe-Schmo in Georgia, but Joe-Schmo takes offense to a black man not loving America as much as him. I get it.
First off, I'm never hesitant to answer. It's all too obvious that you're the one repeatedly backing yourself "into a corner". If "disrespect" is absolute according to you, then a teenager who verbally and calmly tells his parents that he won't clean his room, as opposed to screaming at them and spitting in their face would constitute the same level of disrespect. You'll not get very far in life holding onto such narrow minded perspectives of this world.
For someone "never hesitant to answer" questions, I have yet to get a direct answer out of you.
Wrong. MLK used peaceful protests. He did not disrespect his country or flag. He made speeches in a respectful way.
Sometimes I feel like you're going to cause my head to spin off, David.
You say MLK's protests were peaceful, and yet he was murdered. Obviously a great many people feel that he wasn't being respectful at all, not to the country, the flag, their status quo, their beliefs about race and racial superiority.
Meanwhile, CK is kneeling. Not marching, not inciting his listeners with race-baiting rhetoric (as Sharpton and Jackson do) - nothing at all along those lines. And yet you think he's disrespecting the flag, military, country, etc. MLK: respectful. CK: not so much. And before you go making a ridiculous leap: no, I'm not comparing the persons of MLK and Kaepernick - obviously MLK was a GREAT man, while CK is a football player who's discovered and is nurturing a social conscience.
Originally posted by: craig44 Can you explain why flag burning is not ok, but sitting/kneeling during the anthem is acceptable? Both are purposeful actions of disrespect against the flag. Why is one disrespectful and one not? This is not a matter of degree, but one of right or wrong.
Good grief, here we go again. Burning the flag is nothing like silently kneeling before a game. If you truly believe them to be similar, then you're quite a bit more hysterical than I previously believed.
Originally posted by: craig44
Originally posted by: PSASAP Flag burning pollutes the environment, and has the potential to start an even bigger fire. Sitting or kneeling during the National Anthem does no such thing.
Oh. My. Gosh.
Another insightful, thought provoking post by psasap
So while on the one hand you demand answers of others and then ridicule them once they're given, you refuse again and again to answer pointed questions asking for YOUR opinion. Nice.
I find your views very narrow-minded. You shout over and over again about how disrespectful CK's actions are and patronize and ridicule those who disagree with your generalizations. I wore a uniform and served this country for six years. I find NO disrespect in CK's "little" protest. I find NO disrespect to the Flag or the Anthem. None whatsoever. I'm assuming you never served in the military, so is my opinion worth less than yours? If you did serve, then I apologize, but my point remains. What makes you the arbiter of what's offensive and what isn't?
Finally, you say over have of people polled say his "little" protest was disrespectful. What poll? Who conduced it? What do other polls say? Do the conductors of any of these polls have an agenda, or are they truly non-biased? How many current and former military members participated?
Originally posted by: craig44
For someone "never hesitant to answer" questions, I have yet to get a direct answer out of you.
"So while on the one hand you demand answers of others and then ridicule them once they're given"
Do you really think psa's answer was serious?
"You say MLK's protests were peaceful"
Can you tell me when MLK was in charge of a violent protest? I would be very interested to hear it as he preached peaceful protest.
" I find NO disrespect to the Flag or the Anthem. None whatsoever."
As a military man, you surprise me. How do you think your superiors would have reacted had you decided to take a seat when flag observation was taking place? There are very strict rules for observing/respecting the flag for both civilian and military. I would think as a serviceman, you would know those rules better than the rest of us. I guess not.
Baseball, both burning and sitting are examples of disrespecting the flag. CK is sitting because he knows disrespecting the flag will get him some limelight for his little protest. He knows he is being disrespectful, millions of other people know he is being disrespectful, yet you don't think so. You can do many different things to disrespect the flag. why are some ok (sitting during anthem) and some not ok (burning) very simple question.
I don't personally agree with CK's protest, but you cannot seriously compare that method of protest with burning the flag. There are various degrees of personal expression and I don't believe any rational person would equate kneeling during the anthem with burning the flag.
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I don't personally agree with CK's protest, but you cannot seriously compare that method of protest with burning the flag. There are various degrees of personal expression and I don't believe any rational person would equate kneeling during the anthem with burning the flag.
While the acts are different, the motivation behind both is the same. When one performs an act like that, it is to get a reaction. you get that reaction because both acts are disrespectful. CK knew when he sat that he would get a reaction because of the disrespect of his act. Otherwise, why do it. Both are disrespectful. Both are done in very bad taste.
Baseball, both burning and sitting are examples of disrespecting the flag. CK is sitting because he knows disrespecting the flag will get him some limelight for his little protest. He knows he is being disrespectful, millions of other people know he is being disrespectful, yet you don't think so. You can do many different things to disrespect the flag. why are some ok (sitting during anthem) and some not ok (burning) very simple question.
And speeding on the freeway and murdering some are both "examples" of breaking the law. Why does one of those transgressions result in a citation and the other a life sentence in prison? Answer that for yourself and you'll have answered your own question. I could literally come up with millions of examples if I had enough time but that you can't comprehend something so simple and obvious is not my problem.
Your hyperbole has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Both acts are related. Both acts are disrespectful. The motivation behind both acts is the same. It is very easy to understand. You are just being obtuse. There are rules put forth for how we are to treat our flag. If you knowingly break those rules you are being disrespectful. Very very simple.
Baseball, is it right or wrong to disrespect the flag. That is a really simple question. In fact, it can even have a one word answer. So, which is it? Right or wrong.
Your hyperbole has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Both acts are related. Both acts are disrespectful. The motivation behind both acts is the same. It is very easy to understand. You are just being obtuse. There are rules put forth for how we are to treat our flag. If you knowingly break those rules you are being disrespectful. Very very simple.
And your hypocrisy concerning hypeboles makes you even more obtuse. Very very simple.
Baseball, is it right or wrong to disrespect the flag. That is a really simple question. In fact, it can even have a one word answer. So, which is it? Right or wrong.
According to the Constitution of the Unites States of America, it's apparently a "right".
Your just playing games here. It is a school night and you are up past your bedtime, so you should probably go to bed before your parents get mad.
Originally posted by: craig44 Do you really think psa's answer was serious?
As a military man, you surprise me. How do you think your superiors would have reacted had you decided to take a seat when flag observation was taking place? There are very strict rules for observing/respecting the flag for both civilian and military. I would think as a serviceman, you would know those rules better than the rest of us. I guess not.
Yes, I have found every one of his answers to be serious. And unfortunately I think your condescending answers are likewise serious.
Since you have confirmed that you are not a veteran, I will give you a pass on your lack of knowledge of what the rules are regarding treatment of the Flag. Of course active duty military and reservists are obligated to show overt respect to the Flag. Civilians, however, have zero obligation to show an ounce of affection, respect or reverence. The vast majority do, of course, but many don't. That's their right, and I don't begrudge them that right.
But since you brought it up, please share the strict rules that civilians have in regards to the Flag.
I just watched the movie Spotlight, a true story about the sexual abuse of children by priests in the Catholic Church. At first, it was believed that it was a few rogue priests, "bad apples", who were the abusers. With more extensive probing, it was discovered that is was systemic, and that the church used its power, money and influence to suppress the magnitude of the problem. It was, in the strictest sense, a conspiracy that lasted decades.
As a military man, you surprise me. How do you think your superiors would have reacted had you decided to take a seat when flag observation was taking place? There are very strict rules for observing/respecting the flag for both civilian and military. I would think as a serviceman, you would know those rules better than the rest of us. I guess not.
Yes, I have found every one of his answers to be serious. And unfortunately I think your condescending answers are likewise serious.
Since you have confirmed that you are not a veteran, I will give you a pass on your lack of knowledge of what the rules are regarding treatment of the Flag. Of course active duty military and reservists are obligated to show overt respect to the Flag. Civilians, however, have zero obligation to show an ounce of affection, respect or reverence. The vast majority do, of course, but many don't. That's their right, and I don't begrudge them that right.
But since you brought it up, please share the strict rules that civilians have in regards to the Flag.
www.flag.org
The laws relating to the flag of the United States of America are found in detail in the United States Code. Title 4, Chapter 1 pertains to the flag and seal, seat of Government and the States; Title 18, Chapter 33 pertains to crimes and criminal procedures; Title 36, Chapter 10 pertains to patriotic customs and observances. These laws were supplemented by Executive Orders and Presidentia proclamation
Customs, observations and etiquette are not strict rules. There is no relationship between what a military member must do and what civilians are encouraged to do. A civilian is under no legal obligation to honor or respect the Flag. Most of us do, of course, but there is no legal ramification if Flag etiquette and respect isn't followed.
btw, flag.org redirects to a Scientology website. I believe the site you're referencing is usflag.org
Bob Costas is currently holding court on this issue on the Dan Le Batard show on ESPN Radio. I'll try to find a podcast to link. It starts roughly at the 2:20 mark of his show.
edited for spelling
Transcript of Costas' dialogue in the segment mentioned above:
Note: this segment is a continuation of a segment in the previous hour, and Costas is assuming that people heard that segment
"... and pick up on this additional point, and that is the National Anthem and the way it's come to be viewed and connected to sports, especially since 9/11, and understandably so in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. It was all deeply moving and as it happened the Yankees hosted the World Series barely a month after the Twin Towers came down and it wasn't just that the National Anthem raised goosebumps, and President Bush throwing a perfect strike from the mound when the nation was still on edge, but when you had Roland Tynan, the opera singer, singing God Bless America on the field during the 7th inning stretch - at that period of time that unified everybody. That was deeply, deeply moving.
But after that, what happened was that every game became, especially in the NFL, a demonstration of a certain kind of uber-patriotism. And somehow in this country a lot of people have come to believe that the more ultra conservative you are politically, therefore the more patriotic you are, and the Anthem and patriotism, to a lot of people, is embodied only by the military. You never see a social worker or a teacher or someone like that being associated with the National Anthem or the unfurling of the Flag, which at NFL games is as big as the entire field and often is accompanied by a flyover.
And so when we talk about Kaepernick, a lot of people feel as if what he and others are doing is directly disrespecting the military, because their view is not nuanced enough to encompass the idea that dissent can be patriotic and that you can love your country but still recognize its flaws. Just as Kaepernick, I must say, to this point, is not nuanced enough, at least he hasn't been in his public pronouncements, to say that anything other than what he's complaining about is true. What he is concerned about is true (emphasis is Costas'), but it's not the only truth about America. And he doesn't help his standing as a messenger when he wears socks depicting policemen as pigs, and he wears a t-shirt that not only has Malcolm X on it, which is fine, but which has Fidel Castro's image on it. As flawed as we may be in certain areas, would you rather live in Cuba? Would you rather have lived under Castro's regime? You know, nuance doesn't seem to have much of a place in our political discourse, and now it spills over into sports, where it's either/or, yes or now, up or down, left or right. And the Anthem kind of pulls all that together, and it's only in sports.
You think about this: if you go to see Hamilton - Bryant Gumbel made this point the other night on Real Sports - if you go to see Hamilton - this is a play about the founding fathers - nobody says, "wait a minute. How can they start the play without the National Anthem?" A couple of decades ago if you went to see Saving Private Ryan for gosh sakes, did anyone say "nope, nope - don't show the movie about World War 2 heroes until you play the National Anthem." It's only in and around sports.
And the definition for a lot of people is that it's only about a certain kind of patriotism and especially about the military which we all admire, respect and are grateful to. But it doesn't seem as if people can move out of their respective corners.
Now here's just a personal thought, and it can't come - it can't ever happen, because we're too far down the road. But the National Anthem - the Star Bangled Banner - is not a great song. It can be turned into a great song by a great singer - I mean Whitney Houston at the Super Bowl, Marvin Gaye's version, many other versions can take this unwieldy song and make something wonderful out of it, and because we all have a certain feeling for our country we can still get goosebumps.
But it's not as good as a song as God Bless America, and it's nearly as good a song as America the Beautiful. And if I had my way, which I won't, the National Anthem would be Ray Charles' version of America the Beautiful, because it is simultaneously an ode to the beauty of the country and what we love about the country, but there's also, even though he doesn't say it directly, in Ray Charles' extraordinary talent and in the way he delivers it, there's something plaintive and poignant about it. It's almost a plea for this beautiful and in many ways wonderful country, to, as Marin Luther King said, "Rise up and live out the meaning of its creed."
You can simultaneously love your country and recognize that part of its beauty is that it has mechanisms to reform what's wrong with it. And there will always be something or other wrong with it. And you're not unpatriotic to take note of that. But I would prefer that those who do protest do it in a more nuanced way... and I just prefer Ray Charles' America the Beautiful, because I think that somehow without directly saying it, the way he sings that song pulls all those feelings together - our rightful love, respect and awe about what our country is, but an understanding at the same time of what it could be.
Kap gets the start next week after a putrid performance by Gabbert over the past few weeks.
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@perkdog said:
So Kap didn't vote and I'm reading he still hasn't dontated that million dollars yet either. I love that Steven A Smith is blowing him up lol
It's one of the only times I have ever agreed with Stephen A Smith because he is completely right on this one. Kap wants change apparently but refused to act.
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CK has announced that he will stand for the anthem next year. Isn't the timing of this announcement coincidental considering he will become a free agent next week. I guess we can now all see how deeply important this "cause" was for CK. Fraud.
Or maybe he figured the higher contract that a player with less controversy may attract outweighed his heartfelt "cause". The almighty dollar wins again.
He is a FRAUD and a JERK! What a joke, his agent told him that his flag protest is going to cost him money in free agency so he turns his back on his fake beliefs for money..End of story
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Even an aging, broken down Romo is better than Kap.
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Those that support his right to non-violent protest are still around. He managed to raise awareness and accomplish more for what he believed in than the folks in this thread tearing him down ever will. His teammates certainly showed their appreciation and understanding for what he was doing and what he endured (re-outright hatred) by voting to honor him with the Len Eshmont award. So keep on hating from the cheap seats.
Always amusing how the anti-PC crowd has no issue whatsoever telling everyone else how they must feel and act towards symbols that are meaningful to them.
fergie, we are not trying to accomplish anything other than discussing this idiots protest and how ridiculously obvious it is that he cares more about money than his beliefs. Kap has accomplished nothing, hate to break it to you, all he did was sit for the anthem and when it came down to free agency he makes everyone aware he will now forget about his beliefs so he can get a job. Keep pumping your fist for Kap and accomplish nothing. All this PC and anti American stuff feeds the media and causes the crybaby masses to act up and protest the law enforcement agencies in this country and protest the flag. Tell ya what if it's that bad here Kap and all his followers can pack their stuff and move to Syria, Yemen or Iran and try to their Anti American banter to their hearts content.
We will simply have to agree to disagree. While I disagreed with his form of protest saying he accomplished nothing simply shows your own ignorance.
As for the if you don't like it then leave argument why is that only bandied about when you all disagree with the position someone else is taking. Telling Americans that want to make America better place to leave is pathetic. The CK haters need to get out of their bubbles and leave their safe places for a while.
As for on the field Romo is a far better quarterback but in a league where so many teams have bad QBs someone will give CK a shot.
What EXACTLY did he accomplish? Raising awareness? Yeah, that's the left's code word for not accomplishing anything. He is nothing more than a disrespectful hypocrite
The Fact that someone is calling people ignorant while standing on their own soap box claiming that this FRAUD accomplished anything is ridiculously hilarious! It's wrong on so many levels but the PC crowd will always find a way to justify stupidity lol
Jets sign 37 year old mccown. One more team that does not want to deal with the tire fire that is CK. How much is he regretting his little protest now?
Since 2011, when Kaepernick was drafted, his quarterback rating is 88.9, placing him 15th in the league in that span, right with Andy Dalton. He’s far ahead of guys like Andrew Luck and Eli Manning and Cam Newton and Sam Bradford and Ryan Tannehill and Jay Cutler, I might add. Would inquiring general managers prefer he had more than 72 career passing touchdowns in 69 career games? Sure. Ideally, would GMs prefer Kaepernick be a little higher than a 60-percent passer? Yeah. But Kaepernick also has 13 rushing touchdowns and a career rushing average over six-yards per carry, I’d point out.
And he also has done a tremendous job of protecting the football. His interception percentage of 1.8 is fourth in the NFL since Kaepernick entered the league, behind only Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady and Alex Smith. That’s fairly high company there. And while Kaepernick had some growing up to do in terms of maturity and leadership over the years -- in the huddle and in the locker room -- it seems to me there was very strong support for him amid his peers in San Francisco last season.
It could take some time, to be sure, and clearly Kaepernick has plenty keeping him busy in the meantime as he works on humanitarian missions and takes a global approach to his micro situation. But you’ll never convince me that there are at least 64 quarterbacks available who are superior to him, much less 96 of them when you assume most teams will carry at least three quarterbacks for much of the spring and summer.
The numbers simply don’t add up and they never will. Eventually, he’ll be offered a chance to play again -- a modest contract, to be sure, but one that should include legit incentives -- and no matter where he winds up it has to be less toxic than San Francisco was this time a year ago. Staying in the Bay Area might be close to ideal. I have a pretty good idea what Al Davis might have done.
Kaepernick is currently a free agent. Given he’s better than recently signed quarterbacks like Brian Hoyer, Mike Glennon and Josh McCown, it’s possible that his protest is playing a role in his inability to land a contract during the first two weeks of free agency. One AFC general manager told Bleacher Report last week that some teams are avoiding Kaepernick because they “fear the backlash from fans” and “they think there might be protests or [President Donald] Trump will tweet about the team.”
Meanwhile, his former coach Jim Harbaugh revealed that he’s been contacted by NFL teams about Kaepernick. Harbaugh told those teams that Kaepernick can still be great and win championships.
I'm like Switzerland on this one . I have no dog in the fight.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Don't know what happened with Kaepernick~he was one of the most talented young QBs in the league, but he has regressed mightily since Harbaugh left as HC. Either teams have figured him out or the Niners are so bad he simply needs a change of scenery. Time will tell. I'd be surprised if a team doesn't give him a shot in a QB deprived league, especially since he has agreed to shelve the sideshow with the anthem.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
Don't know what happened with Kaepernick~he was one of the most talented young QBs in the league, but he has regressed mightily since Harbaugh left as HC. Either teams have figured him out or the Niners are so bad he simply needs a change of scenery. Time will tell. I'd be surprised if a team doesn't give him a shot in a QB deprived league, especially since he has agreed to shelve the sideshow with the anthem.
It didn't help that he was hurt and playing in a toxic post Harbaugh environment. I think there are germs of truth to the politically motivate angle. Even in this thread someone dropped the left "card". I lean right FWIW. The NFL is QB staved league. Something amiss. Political fall out has its price.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@grote15 said:
Don't know what happened with Kaepernick~he was one of the most talented young QBs in the league, but he has regressed mightily since Harbaugh left as HC. Either teams have figured him out or the Niners are so bad he simply needs a change of scenery. Time will tell. I'd be surprised if a team doesn't give him a shot in a QB deprived league, especially since he has agreed to shelve the sideshow with the anthem.
It didn't help that he was hurt and playing in a toxic post Harbaugh environment. I think there are germs of truth to the politically motivate angle. Even in this thread someone dropped the left "card". I lean right FWIW. The NFL is QB staved league. Something amiss. Political fall out has its price.
mark
I agree that teams that would otherwise have interest in signing him may be reluctant to do so based on the PR fallout.
However, you can bet, too, that if he were good enough teams would be clambering to sign him regardless of the associated baggage.
The truth is that the Kaepernick of the post-Harbaugh era is a different QB that the Kaepernick that led the Niners to back to back NFC Championships and a Super Bowl berth. He just hasn't played well over the past couple of seasons. Whether he can resurrect his career remains to be seen. That chapter has not yet been written.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
craig44,
Based on your own explicit declarations, I realize that you see the world through only black and white, right or wrong, Coke or Pepsi. But as I've stated, actions and viewpoints in the real world, lie on a spectrum.
So I take it you do not believe in absolute truth? You know that would be a very slippery slope.
And you refused to answer the question. Why is flag burning disrespectful, but sitting/kneeling during the anthem not disrespectful.
What is there to even answer? They're inherently different as they are completely different acts. According to you, a person who stabs an individual to death is no more culpable of murder than a person who sits idly by doing nothing about it.
They are both examples of disrespecting the flag. You can do many different things to disrespect the flag. why are some ok (sitting during anthem) and some not ok (burning) very simple question. You just are hesitant to answer because you have backed yourself into a corner in this discussion.
And no, your murder example is a little silly. A better example would be manslaughter vs murder, but even then it wouldn't work.
So, again, do I understand correctly that you take a postmodernist view and don't believe in absolute truth? If that is the case, it will be very difficult for us to come to any sort of common ground in this discussion as we would have very different paradigms through which we view the world.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
And you refused to answer the question. Why is flag burning disrespectful, but sitting/kneeling during the anthem not disrespectful.
Disrespectful to what/who?
You have never answered this.
To over half the people polled about this little protest. I guess I figured that was somewhat obvious.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
To over half the people polled about this little protest. I guess I figured that was somewhat obvious.
So he's disrespecting individual people?
I think you said it best Craig, racist people will project meaning into these actions.
Kneeling during a song isn't disrespecting Joe-Schmo in Georgia, but Joe-Schmo takes offense to a black man not loving America as much as him. I get it.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
To over half the people polled about this little protest. I guess I figured that was somewhat obvious.
So he's disrespecting individual people?
I think you said it best Craig, racist people will project meaning into these actions.
Kneeling during a song isn't disrespecting Joe-Schmo in Georgia, but Joe-Schmo takes offense to a black man not loving America as much as him. I get it.
You really don't understand do you.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You say Colin Kaepernick is disrespecting half of America. Why only half? What about the other half?
Being offended is not the same as being disrespected.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
No, I really do not.
You say Colin Kaepernick is disrespecting half of America. Why only half? What about the other half?
Being offended is not the same as being disrespected.
Ok. This must be a semantic thing. CK is disrespecting the flag and offending over half the population.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Ok. This must be a semantic thing. CK is disrespecting the flag and offending over half the population.
How is he disrespecting "over half the population?" It's a serious question.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Nothing to protest at all , cops are doing great work right ?
craig44,
First off, I'm never hesitant to answer. It's all too obvious that you're the one repeatedly backing yourself "into a corner". If "disrespect" is absolute according to you, then a teenager who verbally and calmly tells his parents that he won't clean his room, as opposed to screaming at them and spitting in their face would constitute the same level of disrespect. You'll not get very far in life holding onto such narrow minded perspectives of this world.
For someone "never hesitant to answer" questions, I have yet to get a direct answer out of you.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Wrong. MLK used peaceful protests. He did not disrespect his country or flag. He made speeches in a respectful way.
Sometimes I feel like you're going to cause my head to spin off, David.
You say MLK's protests were peaceful, and yet he was murdered. Obviously a great many people feel that he wasn't being respectful at all, not to the country, the flag, their status quo, their beliefs about race and racial superiority.
Meanwhile, CK is kneeling. Not marching, not inciting his listeners with race-baiting rhetoric (as Sharpton and Jackson do) - nothing at all along those lines. And yet you think he's disrespecting the flag, military, country, etc. MLK: respectful. CK: not so much. And before you go making a ridiculous leap: no, I'm not comparing the persons of MLK and Kaepernick - obviously MLK was a GREAT man, while CK is a football player who's discovered and is nurturing a social conscience.
Can you explain why flag burning is not ok, but sitting/kneeling during the anthem is acceptable? Both are purposeful actions of disrespect against the flag. Why is one disrespectful and one not? This is not a matter of degree, but one of right or wrong.
Good grief, here we go again. Burning the flag is nothing like silently kneeling before a game. If you truly believe them to be similar, then you're quite a bit more hysterical than I previously believed.
Flag burning pollutes the environment, and has the potential to start an even bigger fire. Sitting or kneeling during the National Anthem does no such thing.
Oh. My. Gosh.
Another insightful, thought provoking post by psasap
So while on the one hand you demand answers of others and then ridicule them once they're given, you refuse again and again to answer pointed questions asking for YOUR opinion. Nice.
I find your views very narrow-minded. You shout over and over again about how disrespectful CK's actions are and patronize and ridicule those who disagree with your generalizations. I wore a uniform and served this country for six years. I find NO disrespect in CK's "little" protest. I find NO disrespect to the Flag or the Anthem. None whatsoever. I'm assuming you never served in the military, so is my opinion worth less than yours? If you did serve, then I apologize, but my point remains. What makes you the arbiter of what's offensive and what isn't?
Finally, you say over have of people polled say his "little" protest was disrespectful. What poll? Who conduced it? What do other polls say? Do the conductors of any of these polls have an agenda, or are they truly non-biased? How many current and former military members participated?
For someone "never hesitant to answer" questions, I have yet to get a direct answer out of you.
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Ok. This must be a semantic thing. CK is disrespecting the flag and offending over half the population.
How is he disrespecting "over half the population?" It's a serious question.
Um, isn't this what we have been discussing for the last 400 posts? Maybe you should go back and re-read.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
"So while on the one hand you demand answers of others and then ridicule them once they're given"
Do you really think psa's answer was serious?
"You say MLK's protests were peaceful"
Can you tell me when MLK was in charge of a violent protest? I would be very interested to hear it as he preached peaceful protest.
" I find NO disrespect to the Flag or the Anthem. None whatsoever."
As a military man, you surprise me. How do you think your superiors would have reacted had you decided to take a seat when flag observation was taking place? There are very strict rules for observing/respecting the flag for both civilian and military. I would think as a serviceman, you would know those rules better than the rest of us. I guess not.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Ok. This must be a semantic thing. CK is disrespecting the flag and offending over half the population.
How is he disrespecting "over half the population?" It's a serious question.
Um, isn't this what we have been discussing for the last 400 posts? Maybe you should go back and re-read.
Just finished rereading. This wasn't addressed in a succinct manner. I'm sure you can elborate.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
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I don't personally agree with CK's protest, but you cannot seriously compare that method of protest with burning the flag. There are various degrees of personal expression and I don't believe any rational person would equate kneeling during the anthem with burning the flag.
While the acts are different, the motivation behind both is the same. When one performs an act like that, it is to get a reaction. you get that reaction because both acts are disrespectful. CK knew when he sat that he would get a reaction because of the disrespect of his act. Otherwise, why do it. Both are disrespectful. Both are done in very bad taste.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Baseball, both burning and sitting are examples of disrespecting the flag. CK is sitting because he knows disrespecting the flag will get him some limelight for his little protest. He knows he is being disrespectful, millions of other people know he is being disrespectful, yet you don't think so. You can do many different things to disrespect the flag. why are some ok (sitting during anthem) and some not ok (burning) very simple question.
And speeding on the freeway and murdering some are both "examples" of breaking the law. Why does one of those transgressions result in a citation and the other a life sentence in prison? Answer that for yourself and you'll have answered your own question. I could literally come up with millions of examples if I had enough time but that you can't comprehend something so simple and obvious is not my problem.
Your hyperbole has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Both acts are related. Both acts are disrespectful. The motivation behind both acts is the same. It is very easy to understand. You are just being obtuse. There are rules put forth for how we are to treat our flag. If you knowingly break those rules you are being disrespectful. Very very simple.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Your hyperbole has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Both acts are related. Both acts are disrespectful. The motivation behind both acts is the same. It is very easy to understand. You are just being obtuse. There are rules put forth for how we are to treat our flag. If you knowingly break those rules you are being disrespectful. Very very simple.
And your hypocrisy concerning hypeboles makes you even more obtuse. Very very simple.
Way to address the post. Did you even read it?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Baseball, is it right or wrong to disrespect the flag. That is a really simple question. In fact, it can even have a one word answer. So, which is it? Right or wrong.
According to the Constitution of the Unites States of America, it's apparently a "right".
Your just playing games here. It is a school night and you are up past your bedtime, so you should probably go to bed before your parents get mad.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Do you really think psa's answer was serious?
As a military man, you surprise me. How do you think your superiors would have reacted had you decided to take a seat when flag observation was taking place? There are very strict rules for observing/respecting the flag for both civilian and military. I would think as a serviceman, you would know those rules better than the rest of us. I guess not.
Yes, I have found every one of his answers to be serious. And unfortunately I think your condescending answers are likewise serious.
Since you have confirmed that you are not a veteran, I will give you a pass on your lack of knowledge of what the rules are regarding treatment of the Flag. Of course active duty military and reservists are obligated to show overt respect to the Flag. Civilians, however, have zero obligation to show an ounce of affection, respect or reverence. The vast majority do, of course, but many don't. That's their right, and I don't begrudge them that right.
But since you brought it up, please share the strict rules that civilians have in regards to the Flag.
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Do you really think psa's answer was serious?
As a military man, you surprise me. How do you think your superiors would have reacted had you decided to take a seat when flag observation was taking place? There are very strict rules for observing/respecting the flag for both civilian and military. I would think as a serviceman, you would know those rules better than the rest of us. I guess not.
Yes, I have found every one of his answers to be serious. And unfortunately I think your condescending answers are likewise serious.
Since you have confirmed that you are not a veteran, I will give you a pass on your lack of knowledge of what the rules are regarding treatment of the Flag. Of course active duty military and reservists are obligated to show overt respect to the Flag. Civilians, however, have zero obligation to show an ounce of affection, respect or reverence. The vast majority do, of course, but many don't. That's their right, and I don't begrudge them that right.
But since you brought it up, please share the strict rules that civilians have in regards to the Flag.
www.flag.org
The laws relating to the flag of the United States of America are found in detail in the United States Code. Title 4, Chapter 1 pertains to the flag and seal, seat of Government and the States; Title 18, Chapter 33 pertains to crimes and criminal procedures; Title 36, Chapter 10 pertains to patriotic customs and observances. These laws were supplemented by Executive Orders and Presidentia proclamation
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
btw, flag.org redirects to a Scientology website. I believe the site you're referencing is usflag.org
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
edited for spelling
Transcript of Costas' dialogue in the segment mentioned above:
Note: this segment is a continuation of a segment in the previous hour, and Costas is assuming that people heard that segment
"... and pick up on this additional point, and that is the National Anthem and the way it's come to be viewed and connected to sports, especially since 9/11, and understandably so in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. It was all deeply moving and as it happened the Yankees hosted the World Series barely a month after the Twin Towers came down and it wasn't just that the National Anthem raised goosebumps, and President Bush throwing a perfect strike from the mound when the nation was still on edge, but when you had Roland Tynan, the opera singer, singing God Bless America on the field during the 7th inning stretch - at that period of time that unified everybody. That was deeply, deeply moving.
But after that, what happened was that every game became, especially in the NFL, a demonstration of a certain kind of uber-patriotism. And somehow in this country a lot of people have come to believe that the more ultra conservative you are politically, therefore the more patriotic you are, and the Anthem and patriotism, to a lot of people, is embodied only by the military. You never see a social worker or a teacher or someone like that being associated with the National Anthem or the unfurling of the Flag, which at NFL games is as big as the entire field and often is accompanied by a flyover.
And so when we talk about Kaepernick, a lot of people feel as if what he and others are doing is directly disrespecting the military, because their view is not nuanced enough to encompass the idea that dissent can be patriotic and that you can love your country but still recognize its flaws. Just as Kaepernick, I must say, to this point, is not nuanced enough, at least he hasn't been in his public pronouncements, to say that anything other than what he's complaining about is true. What he is concerned about is true (emphasis is Costas'), but it's not the only truth about America. And he doesn't help his standing as a messenger when he wears socks depicting policemen as pigs, and he wears a t-shirt that not only has Malcolm X on it, which is fine, but which has Fidel Castro's image on it. As flawed as we may be in certain areas, would you rather live in Cuba? Would you rather have lived under Castro's regime? You know, nuance doesn't seem to have much of a place in our political discourse, and now it spills over into sports, where it's either/or, yes or now, up or down, left or right. And the Anthem kind of pulls all that together, and it's only in sports.
You think about this: if you go to see Hamilton - Bryant Gumbel made this point the other night on Real Sports - if you go to see Hamilton - this is a play about the founding fathers - nobody says, "wait a minute. How can they start the play without the National Anthem?" A couple of decades ago if you went to see Saving Private Ryan for gosh sakes, did anyone say "nope, nope - don't show the movie about World War 2 heroes until you play the National Anthem." It's only in and around sports.
And the definition for a lot of people is that it's only about a certain kind of patriotism and especially about the military which we all admire, respect and are grateful to. But it doesn't seem as if people can move out of their respective corners.
Now here's just a personal thought, and it can't come - it can't ever happen, because we're too far down the road. But the National Anthem - the Star Bangled Banner - is not a great song. It can be turned into a great song by a great singer - I mean Whitney Houston at the Super Bowl, Marvin Gaye's version, many other versions can take this unwieldy song and make something wonderful out of it, and because we all have a certain feeling for our country we can still get goosebumps.
But it's not as good as a song as God Bless America, and it's nearly as good a song as America the Beautiful. And if I had my way, which I won't, the National Anthem would be Ray Charles' version of America the Beautiful, because it is simultaneously an ode to the beauty of the country and what we love about the country, but there's also, even though he doesn't say it directly, in Ray Charles' extraordinary talent and in the way he delivers it, there's something plaintive and poignant about it. It's almost a plea for this beautiful and in many ways wonderful country, to, as Marin Luther King said, "Rise up and live out the meaning of its creed."
You can simultaneously love your country and recognize that part of its beauty is that it has mechanisms to reform what's wrong with it. And there will always be something or other wrong with it. And you're not unpatriotic to take note of that. But I would prefer that those who do protest do it in a more nuanced way... and I just prefer Ray Charles' America the Beautiful, because I think that somehow without directly saying it, the way he sings that song pulls all those feelings together - our rightful love, respect and awe about what our country is, but an understanding at the same time of what it could be.
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Kap gets the start next week after a putrid performance by Gabbert over the past few weeks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So Kap didn't vote and I'm reading he still hasn't dontated that million dollars yet either. I love that Steven A Smith is blowing him up lol
It's one of the only times I have ever agreed with Stephen A Smith because he is completely right on this one. Kap wants change apparently but refused to act.
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CK has announced that he will stand for the anthem next year. Isn't the timing of this announcement coincidental considering he will become a free agent next week. I guess we can now all see how deeply important this "cause" was for CK. Fraud.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Or maybe he just got tired of all the hate he received for his peaceful protest.
Robb
Or maybe he figured the higher contract that a player with less controversy may attract outweighed his heartfelt "cause". The almighty dollar wins again.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He is a FRAUD and a JERK! What a joke, his agent told him that his flag protest is going to cost him money in free agency so he turns his back on his fake beliefs for money..End of story
Perkdog wins!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Money talks..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I really don't know who would want him anyway. Not only is he a jerk, but he is a terrible QB....maybe 1 notch above Romo at best.
Dimeman, you were right all along about CK and his little protest. I wonder where all his supporters are now? The silence is deafening.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Even an aging, broken down Romo is better than Kap.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Those that support his right to non-violent protest are still around. He managed to raise awareness and accomplish more for what he believed in than the folks in this thread tearing him down ever will. His teammates certainly showed their appreciation and understanding for what he was doing and what he endured (re-outright hatred) by voting to honor him with the Len Eshmont award. So keep on hating from the cheap seats.
Always amusing how the anti-PC crowd has no issue whatsoever telling everyone else how they must feel and act towards symbols that are meaningful to them.
Robb
fergie, we are not trying to accomplish anything other than discussing this idiots protest and how ridiculously obvious it is that he cares more about money than his beliefs. Kap has accomplished nothing, hate to break it to you, all he did was sit for the anthem and when it came down to free agency he makes everyone aware he will now forget about his beliefs so he can get a job. Keep pumping your fist for Kap and accomplish nothing. All this PC and anti American stuff feeds the media and causes the crybaby masses to act up and protest the law enforcement agencies in this country and protest the flag. Tell ya what if it's that bad here Kap and all his followers can pack their stuff and move to Syria, Yemen or Iran and try to their Anti American banter to their hearts content.
Kaps little protest accomplished absolutely nothing. Nothing. Other than getting CK a little notoriety.
Well, i suppose it did highlight his shallowness.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If he is better than Romo there would be about 10-15 teams that would want him.
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Ralph
We will simply have to agree to disagree. While I disagreed with his form of protest saying he accomplished nothing simply shows your own ignorance.
As for the if you don't like it then leave argument why is that only bandied about when you all disagree with the position someone else is taking. Telling Americans that want to make America better place to leave is pathetic. The CK haters need to get out of their bubbles and leave their safe places for a while.
As for on the field Romo is a far better quarterback but in a league where so many teams have bad QBs someone will give CK a shot.
Robb
What EXACTLY did he accomplish? Raising awareness? Yeah, that's the left's code word for not accomplishing anything. He is nothing more than a disrespectful hypocrite
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The Fact that someone is calling people ignorant while standing on their own soap box claiming that this FRAUD accomplished anything is ridiculously hilarious! It's wrong on so many levels but the PC crowd will always find a way to justify stupidity lol
Jets sign 37 year old mccown. One more team that does not want to deal with the tire fire that is CK. How much is he regretting his little protest now?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Interesting. Dimeman the numbers don't add up for you.
Craig you're the stats guy around here. They don't lie ; ) you're with Dimeman right?
Politically motivated on why he's not signed?
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-the-one-nfl-team-that-should-take-a-chance-on-colin-kaepernick/?ref=yfp
Since 2011, when Kaepernick was drafted, his quarterback rating is 88.9, placing him 15th in the league in that span, right with Andy Dalton. He’s far ahead of guys like Andrew Luck and Eli Manning and Cam Newton and Sam Bradford and Ryan Tannehill and Jay Cutler, I might add. Would inquiring general managers prefer he had more than 72 career passing touchdowns in 69 career games? Sure. Ideally, would GMs prefer Kaepernick be a little higher than a 60-percent passer? Yeah. But Kaepernick also has 13 rushing touchdowns and a career rushing average over six-yards per carry, I’d point out.
And he also has done a tremendous job of protecting the football. His interception percentage of 1.8 is fourth in the NFL since Kaepernick entered the league, behind only Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady and Alex Smith. That’s fairly high company there. And while Kaepernick had some growing up to do in terms of maturity and leadership over the years -- in the huddle and in the locker room -- it seems to me there was very strong support for him amid his peers in San Francisco last season.
It could take some time, to be sure, and clearly Kaepernick has plenty keeping him busy in the meantime as he works on humanitarian missions and takes a global approach to his micro situation. But you’ll never convince me that there are at least 64 quarterbacks available who are superior to him, much less 96 of them when you assume most teams will carry at least three quarterbacks for much of the spring and summer.
The numbers simply don’t add up and they never will. Eventually, he’ll be offered a chance to play again -- a modest contract, to be sure, but one that should include legit incentives -- and no matter where he winds up it has to be less toxic than San Francisco was this time a year ago. Staying in the Bay Area might be close to ideal. I have a pretty good idea what Al Davis might have done.
Kaepernick is currently a free agent. Given he’s better than recently signed quarterbacks like Brian Hoyer, Mike Glennon and Josh McCown, it’s possible that his protest is playing a role in his inability to land a contract during the first two weeks of free agency. One AFC general manager told Bleacher Report last week that some teams are avoiding Kaepernick because they “fear the backlash from fans” and “they think there might be protests or [President Donald] Trump will tweet about the team.”
Meanwhile, his former coach Jim Harbaugh revealed that he’s been contacted by NFL teams about Kaepernick. Harbaugh told those teams that Kaepernick can still be great and win championships.
I'm like Switzerland on this one . I have no dog in the fight.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Don't know what happened with Kaepernick~he was one of the most talented young QBs in the league, but he has regressed mightily since Harbaugh left as HC. Either teams have figured him out or the Niners are so bad he simply needs a change of scenery. Time will tell. I'd be surprised if a team doesn't give him a shot in a QB deprived league, especially since he has agreed to shelve the sideshow with the anthem.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It didn't help that he was hurt and playing in a toxic post Harbaugh environment. I think there are germs of truth to the politically motivate angle. Even in this thread someone dropped the left "card". I lean right FWIW. The NFL is QB staved league. Something amiss. Political fall out has its price.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I agree that teams that would otherwise have interest in signing him may be reluctant to do so based on the PR fallout.
However, you can bet, too, that if he were good enough teams would be clambering to sign him regardless of the associated baggage.
The truth is that the Kaepernick of the post-Harbaugh era is a different QB that the Kaepernick that led the Niners to back to back NFC Championships and a Super Bowl berth. He just hasn't played well over the past couple of seasons. Whether he can resurrect his career remains to be seen. That chapter has not yet been written.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.