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Is Kaepernick a jerk?

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  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    As was mentioned in the college thread, much of these little protests are little more than a weak attempt at self aggrandizement. Coddled athletes who just can't get enough of the spotlight


    You're on the wrong side of history.
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  • EstilEstil Posts: 6,866 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP

    There would have been more players who joined the protest on Sunday if they weren't worried about losing endorsement deals. Brandon Marshall already lost two deals, and he was probably well aware that was a likely outcome of his actions. That he did it anyway shows that his beliefs mean more to him than money.




    Someone who is truly serious about standing up for what they believe in would be prepared for and accept that possibility. Keep in mind that even those who stood for the most righteous of causes often had to pay a heavy price (for example, Nelson Mandella being in prison for about 25 years)...and then there are those like Lincoln, Kennedy, eh another Kennedy, King, Malcom X, Ghandi who paid the ultimate price image
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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JHS5120

    Originally posted by: craig44

    As was mentioned in the college thread, much of these little protests are little more than a weak attempt at self aggrandizement. Coddled athletes who just can't get enough of the spotlight




    You're on the wrong side of history.




    If it is psasap's version of history, that is just fine with me.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    If it is psasap's version of history, that is just fine with me.


    I bet everyone in this picture thought the same thing. I wonder if they're still proud of their actions.


    image
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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JHS5120

    Originally posted by: craig44

    If it is psasap's version of history, that is just fine with me.




    I bet everyone in this picture thought the same thing. I wonder if they're still proud of their actions.





    image




    You are clueless kid. Go herd up with all of your sheeple friends. You bring very, very little to the table.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    Sheeple is how I would describe the mob that went to that lunch counter that day to harass three non-violent protesters. Another word to describe them would be cowards, as it took all twenty or thirty of them to go there to pick on three people. A footnote to the story is that the guy who took the photo was actually on the side of the racists. After witnessing what he had seen, he had a come to Jesus moment and decided that segregation was wrong and he could no longer believe what all his friends and family had instilled in him.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP
    Sheeple is how I would describe the mob that went to that lunch counter that day to harass three non-violent protesters. Another word to describe them would be cowards, as it took all twenty or thirty of them to go there to pick on three people. A footnote to the story is that the guy who took the photo was actually on the side of the racists. After witnessing what he had seen, he had a come to Jesus moment and decided that segregation was wrong and he could no longer believe what all his friends and family had instilled in him.


    Beautiful. +1
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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP
    In the not so distant past, the lunch counters at Woolworth's were segregated. When three students, one black woman, and a white man and woman who were sympathetic to the cause, staged a peaceful protest by defying the rules of the time, they were met with a great deal of hostility and violence. A simple demand to be treated as a human being was met with an inordinate amount of resistance. Some Americans do not take simple protests lightly, and the ones who put up the biggest fight stand on the wrong side of history.


    image


    What's your point with this!!! This type of treatment is long gone as it should be!
  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    I beg to differ with you when you say this type of treatment is long gone. Haven't you seen any of the dash cam videos, or videos recorded by cell phones? You're either really out of touch or in total denial if you think that this type of behavior, and worse, isn't still going on. Perhaps this video will give you a clue as to what is going on.

    YouTube video
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP

    I beg to differ with you when you say this type of treatment is long gone. Haven't you seen any of the dash cam videos, or videos recorded by cell phones? You're either really out of touch or in total denial if you think that this type of behavior, and worse, isn't still going on. Perhaps this video will give you a clue as to what is going on.



    YouTube video




    What in the world makes you think that the violence shown in that video was racially motivated? Because the officer was white and the student black? There is no audio and no context. It is ugly, but automatically assuming the violence is racially motivated is lazy and very poor deduction on your part. Is it possible the officer was out of line? Of course. The girl out of line? Sure. But we cannot assume it was racially motivated. Very poor example on your part.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, what do you think it is, a giraffe?
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP

    If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, what do you think it is, a giraffe?




    Your stereotyping. Some people see race in everything. It is a very divisive way to view things. You have zero evidence that incident was racially motivated. You have been kneeling at the feet of the race baiters for too long and have forgotten how to think for yourself. It's sad. The "rev" Sharpton would be very proud of you.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    There have been both racially and homophobic motivated mass murders in the Deep South within the past year. People are literally getting killed for the color of their skin.
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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I totally see where PSA and JHS are coming from. I just don't like how Kap is going about it. It just seems rather disingenuous to me. Maybe I'm wrong



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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JHS5120

    There have been both racially and homophobic motivated mass murders in the Deep South within the past year. People are literally getting killed for the color of their skin.




    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people. However, CK's little protest is apparently against institutional racism. Which institution is performing or encouraging racial mass murders? In addition, he is disrespecting the flag/anthem of our nation when our government is not the institution encouraging or performing racism or genocide. A joke.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44

    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people (in America).


    This is why there is a need to protest. If you believe this country has done enough to combat the racism epidemic in this country and this is the best our nation can offer than it certainly doesn't deserve CK to stand.
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    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JHS5120

    Originally posted by: craig44



    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people (in America).




    This is why there is a need to protest. If you believe this country has done enough to combat the racism epidemic in this country and this is the best our nation can offer than it certainly doesn't deserve CK to stand.




    Unless you think the federal government of our country or our armed forces are promoting racism, why on earth would you have your little protest center on the symbols of those institutions? That has been my point all along. His little protest is totally misguided and is targeting the wrong institutions.

    If you think our government/armed forces are promoting such things, you are dead wrong. If you don't think that is happening, then don't disrespect the symbols of those institutions. It's very very simple.



    It would be exceedingly difficult to protest each individual case of racism. But he needs to place his protests where they belong



    He is very misguided and this whole mess has most likely been his feeble attempt at self aggrandizement. Got to get some of that spotlight back

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    Originally posted by: JHS5120
    Originally posted by: craig44

    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people (in America).


    This is why there is a need to protest. If you believe this country has done enough to combat the racism epidemic in this country and this is the best our nation can offer than it certainly doesn't deserve CK to stand.


    Unless you think the federal government of our country or our armed forces are promoting racism, why on earth would you have your little protest center on the symbols of those institutions? That has been my point all along. His little protest is totally misguided and is targeting the wrong institutions.
    If you think our government/armed forces are promoting such things, you are dead wrong. If you don't think that is happening, then don't disrespect the symbols of those institutions. It's very very simple.

    It would be exceedingly difficult to protest each individual case of racism. But he needs to place his protests where they belong

    He is very misguided and this whole mess has most likely been his feeble attempt at self aggrandizement. Got to get some of that spotlight back


    How many racist incidents need to happen before it no longer is "individual cases of racism?" 100? 10,000? 100,000? Because there are far more than that every year. Eventually you realize it isn't "individual cases" and just the accepted norm of this country.

    You may have low standards for America, but others don't.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So then you believe there are city wide, state wide or nation wide conspiracies to promote racism and violence. Exactly which institution is promoting this racism? That is the institution CK should be focusing his protest on. If you don't believe there is a mass conspiracy of racists out there, then you have many individual cases of racism.

    There may be a mass cabal of racists out there institutionally directing people, but I don't believe it is coming from our government. Therefore, leave the symbols of our government out of your disrespectful little protest.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    You seem to be drawn to conspiracy theories. Racism isn't a conspiracy, nor is it even a prerequisite for institutional racism.

    I have previously provided definitive proof that instituional racism exists in many cities. Protesting these injustices is the most patriotic action and American can take.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Far from the truth. I do not believe in conspiracy theories. I think you do, though you would never admit it.

    Whenever you have a group of people banding together to "plan" things out secretly, you have a conspiracy. You seem to believe this is happening in the upper recesses of our government as you agree with CK's little protest against the flag/anthem.



    If there are not a group of people working towards this racist goal you speak of, then the alternative is that there are individual people out there who perform acts of racist violence. These are the people CK should be protesting.



    Again, his little protest is focused on the wrong place.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    You need to work on your reading comhrension skills son.

    Imagine if this board (the CU Board) had a large presence of racist and violent members. These members insult, belittle and harass new members and naive collectors. Some of these board members even seek out and physically assault some of these members.

    Now, most members would complain to the moderators. But imagine the moderators refuse to take any action, they just turn a blind eye to the deplorable behavior of these members. Would that be a good reason to "protest" these boards? Definitely. Is there a larger conspiracy? No.

    I never said people are "secretly planning" to discriminate against minorities. You are reaching.
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    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I don't see the need to protest in that scenario. One would need to go through the chain of command to remove/replace those mods. Then the new mods would ban the violent members. I see no need for a protest there. Just action.



    Now if some moderators are actively refusing to take action, one could say they agree with the violence and by refusing to take any punitive action against it are complicit in those crimes. That is where the conspiracy comes in.



    Often these public protests put on by athletes and celebrities are little more than narcissistic photo ops when some action is what is really called for.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    No, I don't see the need to protest in that scenario. One would need to go through the chain of command to remove/replace those mods. Then the new mods would ban the violent members. I see no need for a protest there. Just action.

    Now if some moderators are actively refusing to take action, one could say they agree with the violence and by refusing to take any punitive action against it are complicit in those crimes. That is where the conspiracy comes in.

    Often these public protests put on by athletes and celebrities are little more than narcissistic photo ops when some action is what is really called for.


    You go through the chain of command and nothing changes. Then you go even higher and still nothing changes. You repeat these efforts for years with no change.

    Your choice is to leave (which isn't practical in real life) or publicly criticize the mods and the board for this egregious lapse of justice. You can complain about the individuals all you want, but at the end of the day, they are the faceless many.

    Very few conspire to be racist - they aren't relevant in these discussions. The problem is that there are SERIOUS issues with this country (you said it yourself) "there will always be and always have been racist people." But that's not good enough in the greatest country on earth. Protesting is a right, but when there are severe injustices that are not being properly addressed, it becomes a duty.
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    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you go through the chain of command and nothing changes, then you go above their heads and get the authorities involved. Racial violence is ILLEGAL. The perpetrators will then be punished.



    Again, CK's little protest is totally misguided. Why disrespect the flag/anthem if the government or armed forces are not the problem. CK has effectively thrown a blanket over the entire government/armed forces with this little protest.



    He needs to get way more specific with who and what exactly he is protesting.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44Again, CK's little protest is totally misguided in your opinion. Why disrespect the flag/anthem if the government or armed forces are not the problem. CK has effectively thrown a blanket over the entire government/armed forces with this little protest, in your opinion.

    He needs to get way more specific with who and what exactly he is protesting.


    David, I think CK has done a pretty good job of explaining what he's protesting. Have you actually read and listened to the things he said, or are your beliefs so cemented that there is no wiggle room? He's actually been pretty articulate about where he's coming from, but you seem to either willfully ignore or discount what he's saying.

    I know you think he disrespected the Flag/Anthem, and it sounds to me that because you believe that then that's the Gospel - no room for interpretation or the possibility that what you believe might not actually be what's going on. I have asked several times what you thought would be a good outlet for his "little protest", but you have consistently deflected the question. I'm not sure why that is. You seem to be content with condemning the protest and the protester, but haven't offered to seriously dialogue about what you would have accepted or address the actual issues he's protesting.

    Here's an article on ESPN about baseball players and their responsibility and thoughts about activism. Pretty interesting, imo.

    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/...xing-baseball-activism

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TNP777

    Originally posted by: craig44Again, CK's little protest is totally misguided in your opinion. Why disrespect the flag/anthem if the government or armed forces are not the problem. CK has effectively thrown a blanket over the entire government/armed forces with this little protest, in your opinion.



    He needs to get way more specific with who and what exactly he is protesting.




    David, I think CK has done a pretty good job of explaining what he's protesting. Have you actually read and listened to the things he said, or are your beliefs so cemented that there is no wiggle room? He's actually been pretty articulate about where he's coming from, but you seem to either willfully ignore or discount what he's saying.



    I know you think he disrespected the Flag/Anthem, and it sounds to me that because you believe that then that's the Gospel - no room for interpretation or the possibility that what you believe might not actually be what's going on. I have asked several times what you thought would be a good outlet for his "little protest", but you have consistently deflected the question. I'm not sure why that is. You seem to be content with condemning the protest and the protester, but haven't offered to seriously dialogue about what you would have accepted or address the actual issues he's protesting.



    Here's an article on ESPN about baseball players and their responsibility and thoughts about activism. Pretty interesting, imo.



    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/...xing-baseball-activism





    There are certain things that though we have the right to do them, we shouldn't do them. Disrespecting/burning the flag in protest are two of them. It is bad form. Again, it is not my protest or my responsibility to determine how CK should protest. I just believe whatever he or anyone does should be respectful. And kneeling for the anthem is very very far from respectful.



    One shouldn't have to tear something down in protest of something else.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    Do you have anything new to add, or are you going to continue to regurgitate the same old tired argument? And who made you the arbiter of what is respectful and disrespectful anyway?
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe those here that believe racial injustice in running rampant should look at the facts at what really is going on. There are problems that is for sure. But what are those problems and who is to blame.

    Case in point. Lets look at the term "black lives matter". Of course they do..."all lives matter"! Lets look at the incident that started this term. Ferguson MO...a black ______(you fill in the blank) robs a store....assaults a bystander.....attacks a police officer in his car and tries to take his gun and in the process is shot a killed. Who is to blame here? The black person...that's who. Had he have gotten the gun from the police officer he would have killed the officer and who knows who else.

    So what happens........blacks are brought in from all over the country and they loot and burn and pretty much destroy the city. And people like you justify this in the name of racial hatred.

    How many black children are brought up in homes where they are taught from birth to hate whites and blame whites for all their problems? I would say many. I would say this happens way more in black homes than does the same in white homes toward blacks. THIS is one of the biggest problems we have.

    These problems with police stopping blacks for no reason can be addressed and should be addressed. But again.....disrespecting the flag and NA is NOT the way to go about getting these changes.
  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    How would you know that black children are raised by their families to hate white people? They might be taught about the history of relations between blacks and whites, that it has been mostly negative, and that they need to maintain a healthy skepticism, but that's different than irrational hatred. Perhaps it's your paranoia talking to you.
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP
    How would you know that black children are raised by their families to hate white people? They might be taught about the history of relations between blacks and whites, that it has been mostly negative, and that they need to maintain a healthy skepticism, but that's different than irrational hatred. Perhaps it's your paranoia talking to you.


    History is just that...HISTORY. Don't you think it would be better if we ALL moved forward and looked at the good in other people instead of the bad?

    There are a lot more good blacks and whites then there are bad, but the bad get all the press and the hatred keeps on going.

    I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. I do know that the rioting that took place in Ferguson and places like that is NOT the answer. It has to start in the homes of both blacks and whites and for EVERONE to judge others by their actions and not the color of their skin.

    People like Jessie Jackson and the rev. Sharpton(sp) are only making things worse.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PSASAP

    Do you have anything new to add, or are you going to continue to regurgitate the same old tired argument? And who made you the arbiter of what is respectful and disrespectful anyway?




    What EXACTLY are you bringing to the table?



    And the answer to your second question. It just takes a little class and common sense. Two things that seem to be lacking in today's PC society

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DIMEMAN

    Originally posted by: PSASAP

    How would you know that black children are raised by their families to hate white people? They might be taught about the history of relations between blacks and whites, that it has been mostly negative, and that they need to maintain a healthy skepticism, but that's different than irrational hatred. Perhaps it's your paranoia talking to you.




    History is just that...HISTORY. Don't you think it would be better if we ALL moved forward and looked at the good in other people instead of the bad?



    There are a lot more good blacks and whites then there are bad, but the bad get all the press and the hatred keeps on going.



    I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. I do know that the rioting that took place in Ferguson and places like that is NOT the answer. It has to start in the homes of both blacks and whites and for EVERONE to judge others by their actions and not the color of their skin.



    People like Jessie Jackson and the rev. Sharpton(sp) are only making things worse.




    +1000

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No one wants to address the REAL problem. It is NOT race. It is about poverty.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    This should be of interest to you then.

    link
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    Originally posted by: JHS5120
    Originally posted by: craig44

    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people (in America).


    This is why there is a need to protest. If you believe this country has done enough to combat the racism epidemic in this country and this is the best our nation can offer than it certainly doesn't deserve CK to stand.


    Unless you think the federal government of our country or our armed forces are promoting racism, why on earth would you have your little protest center on the symbols of those institutions? That has been my point all along. His little protest is totally misguided and is targeting the wrong institutions.
    If you think our government/armed forces are promoting such things, you are dead wrong. If you don't think that is happening, then don't disrespect the symbols of those institutions. It's very very simple.

    It would be exceedingly difficult to protest each individual case of racism. But he needs to place his protests where they belong

    He is very misguided and this whole mess has most likely been his feeble attempt at self aggrandizement. Got to get some of that spotlight back


    * 1st and 3rd bolded statements: David, I will keep asking until you stop deflecting and give your opinion on something else besides the same tired statements. You repeatedly state that CK is protesting in the wrong places. So once again, if he's doing it wrong, where is the right place for a professional athlete to protest? Where else is he going to have the platform on which he can be heard? And why wouldn't he use the best available platform? Would you have an actor or musician step into an arena that's removed from where he can best be heard? No? Then why should the athlete be any different?

    * 2nd bolded statement: no, I don't think our government/armed forces are directly promoting such things, but I DO think at many levels it is either tolerated or ignored. My military experience ended 26 years and 4 days ago and I witnessed much behavior that was unacceptable. I have no reason to believe the situation is any different today.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TNP777
    Originally posted by: craig44
    Originally posted by: JHS5120
    Originally posted by: craig44

    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people (in America).


    This is why there is a need to protest. If you believe this country has done enough to combat the racism epidemic in this country and this is the best our nation can offer than it certainly doesn't deserve CK to stand.


    Unless you think the federal government of our country or our armed forces are promoting racism, why on earth would you have your little protest center on the symbols of those institutions? That has been my point all along. His little protest is totally misguided and is targeting the wrong institutions.
    If you think our government/armed forces are promoting such things, you are dead wrong. If you don't think that is happening, then don't disrespect the symbols of those institutions. It's very very simple.

    It would be exceedingly difficult to protest each individual case of racism. But he needs to place his protests where they belong

    He is very misguided and this whole mess has most likely been his feeble attempt at self aggrandizement. Got to get some of that spotlight back


    * 1st and 3rd bolded statements: David, I will keep asking until you stop deflecting and give your opinion on something else besides the same tired statements. You repeatedly state that CK is protesting in the wrong places. So once again, if he's doing it wrong, where is the right place for a professional athlete to protest? Where else is he going to have the platform on which he can be heard? And why wouldn't he use the best available platform? Would you have an actor or musician step into an arena that's removed from where he can best be heard? No? Then why should the athlete be any different?

    * 2nd bolded statement: no, I don't think our government/armed forces are directly promoting such things, but I DO think at many levels it is either tolerated or ignored. My military experience ended 26 years and 4 days ago and I witnessed much behavior that was unacceptable. I have no reason to believe the situation is any different today.



    You keep asking where.....How about he starts a foundation to help troubled youths off the streets and violence? That would be a good start!
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DIMEMAN
    Originally posted by: PSASAP
    In the not so distant past, the lunch counters at Woolworth's were segregated. When three students, one black woman, and a white man and woman who were sympathetic to the cause, staged a peaceful protest by defying the rules of the time, they were met with a great deal of hostility and violence. A simple demand to be treated as a human being was met with an inordinate amount of resistance. Some Americans do not take simple protests lightly, and the ones who put up the biggest fight stand on the wrong side of history.


    image


    What's your point with this!!! This type of treatment is long gone as it should be!

    I think for the most part you're right. Over-the-top displays of corporate racism (barring a white supremacist rally or some such) are behind us, thankfully so. But I sense a little "we've come a long way from those times, so let it rest!" sentiment. Yes, we have come a long way, but that doesn't mean we stop moving forward. As a nation, as a culture, as a society, I believe we have a long way to go. All sides of the racial divides in America have much work to do - the decades and centuries have built some pretty strong walls, and whether some people want to believe/accept that or not, there are those, institutional and individual, that would prefer those walls stand tall.

    As always, anything I've written is my opinion - nothing more and nothing less.

  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DIMEMAN
    You keep asking where.....How about he starts a foundation to help troubled youths off the streets and violence? That would be a good start!

    I wasn't asking you, but you're right - that would be a great start. Or a great second act, or whatever. I think the greatest start was getting a large chunk of our population to actively discuss his actions and the motivation behind them. This thread is a prime example. My hope is that at least some here and elsewhere, even if they haven't changed their mindset, are at least willing to honestly listen to and understand a viewpoint outside their own.



  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44

    It is about poverty.




    Since this thread is the gift that keeps on giving, I'm going to toss two pennies into the fountain.



    Had a really interesting convo with a childhood friend of mine last weekend. His story to follow, but first I want to touch on what we discussed over beers & NFL games. Invariably, Kap came up. I told him, "The floor is yours. I am going to sit back, listen, and sip on this Shiner." I'm paraphrasing throughout this post, but the following quotes are the gist:



    "I get what he's doing, and he has the right to do so. I personally would go about it a different way, because what he's attempting to accomplish is being offset by the scores of people he's offending. Therefore, I have a hard time determining whether or not actions such as this are truly helpful in the grand scheme of things. I just think there are better ways to go about it. I like the fact he put his money where his mouth is, but honestly I wish he had done so at the exact same time he started to kneel during the National Anthem. Because he waited until the backlash, his intentions could easily be construed as disingenuous. That's the short version of what I think. Now, your turn."



    After hearing that, I had no clue what the score was to any game we were "watching." It wasn't what I expected to hear......at all. I shoved aside my beer while he began to imbibe his:



    "You have known me my entire life. You know full well that I don't blindly follow an ideology or formulate an opinion about someone based on the color of their skin. There is no left and right or black and white in my world. I think for myself, therefore what I'm about to say is strictly my unbiased opinion after processing everything I personally see, read, hear, and know.



    With that said, here are my thoughts. I doubt you'll like them, but here they are anyway. I think the mainstream media is guilty of providing no favors to anyone at times. Not only are certain stories sensationalized to the point of exacerbating the very problem they are attempting to ameliorate, but other vital stories are in essence being muted in the process. For instance, Colin Kapernick when compared to the mass shootings that have been going on for years in Chicago. I'd be willing to bet the amount of coverage CK has received in the past 3 weeks equates to roughly 3 years worth of press for the human destruction taking place in the Windy City. That is a travesty and utterly shameful. You look like you're dying to speak, so go."



    "Actually, I'm not. I can't argue with any of that. I can't begin to tell you how much it pains me to know that my brothers and sisters are gunning each other down like it's going out of style, yet seemingly nothing is being done about it."



    This discourse continued throughout an entire NFL game, but the inception was what I wanted to touch on. My views are captured within the quote above. His were too.



    But before you think this was a gathering consisting of two crusty whites guys in a blood red state, think again. If you paid close attention to his last quote, my friend is black. His life story is truly fascinating:



    He is originally from the same city I am and grew up in abject poverty. His parents were simultaneously incarcerated in the midst of his childhood, so he was essentially raised by his grandparents. He was a straight baller who earned a scholarship to a D-I school, and he parlayed his full ride into a degree which then catapulted him into a lucrative career in medical sales. He now makes money hand over fist and I couldn't be more happy for him.



    His background, what we discussed and what David said actually tie in together. I agree with it being about poverty, but I'll take it one step further: it's also about the amount of knowledge you fill your head with. If education is not an integral part of your life, escaping penury is going to be very difficult. And if you don't escape it, you're prone to live a life that gives you a better chance of being behind bars than it does reaching your high bar of aspirations. My friend should be a case study.



    In closing, I actually posed this exact question to him later on in our discussion:



    "Had you not gone to Georgia, where do you think you would be today?"



    "I shudder to think."



  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Terrific post, Stephen~your friend is a wise man.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    Hi, Stephen. Like all posts that I deem "great", yours made me think outside my comfortable little box a little. This in particular gave me pause, which I'm sure was exactly what you intended.

    I'd be willing to bet the amount of coverage CK has received in the past 3 weeks equates to roughly 3 years worth of press for the human destruction taking place in the Windy City. That is a travesty and utterly shameful.

    That is a travesty, and you're right. Actual destruction of lives and property is going on all over this country, and yet we're at each other's throats over an athlete's actions. I maintain that it's still be a catalyst for dialogue, but we should be spending a lot more time trying to fix the situations you allude to. How do we do that? Not the foggiest clue. I think a pretty damn good start is by having honest conversations with people that are 'different' than us and doing exactly what you did: David spoke, and you listened. Then you spoke and he listened. That's the way it should be done. I actually learned that (and more) in a marriage class. Not only listen, but then mirror back to the other person what they said - that way they know you were actually paying attention!
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TNP777

    Originally posted by: craig44

    Originally posted by: JHS5120

    Originally posted by: craig44



    Yes, there have always been and always will be racist people (in America).




    This is why there is a need to protest. If you believe this country has done enough to combat the racism epidemic in this country and this is the best our nation can offer than it certainly doesn't deserve CK to stand.




    Unless you think the federal government of our country or our armed forces are promoting racism, why on earth would you have your little protest center on the symbols of those institutions? That has been my point all along. His little protest is totally misguided and is targeting the wrong institutions.

    If you think our government/armed forces are promoting such things, you are dead wrong. If you don't think that is happening, then don't disrespect the symbols of those institutions. It's very very simple.



    It would be exceedingly difficult to protest each individual case of racism. But he needs to place his protests where they belong



    He is very misguided and this whole mess has most likely been his feeble attempt at self aggrandizement. Got to get some of that spotlight back




    * 1st and 3rd bolded statements: David, I will keep asking until you stop deflecting and give your opinion on something else besides the same tired statements. You repeatedly state that CK is protesting in the wrong places. So once again, if he's doing it wrong, where is the right place for a professional athlete to protest? Where else is he going to have the platform on which he can be heard? And why wouldn't he use the best available platform? Would you have an actor or musician step into an arena that's removed from where he can best be heard? No? Then why should the athlete be any different?



    * 2nd bolded statement: no, I don't think our government/armed forces are directly promoting such things, but I DO think at many levels it is either tolerated or ignored. My military experience ended 26 years and 4 days ago and I witnessed much behavior that was unacceptable. I have no reason to believe the situation is any different today.







    You don't think things have changed in 26 years? I would beg to differ. Remember the old don't ask don't tell? Things are VERY different now. In fact, the army has recently agreed to pay for their first gender reassignment surgery. Let me just say that if anything racial was brought to attention, heads would roll. Do you really think th military would want that PR nightmare? That really goes for any public job or office and most private businesses. They would never want that PR battle.



    So yes, things have GREATLY changed.



    And no, I'm not deflecting. It is not my protest. I am simply commenting on the appropriateness of CK's little attempt at a cause.



    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: galaxy27

    Originally posted by: craig44

    It is about poverty.




    Since this thread is the gift that keeps on giving, I'm going to toss two pennies into the fountain.



    Had a really interesting convo with a childhood friend of mine last weekend. His story to follow, but first I want to touch on what we discussed over beers & NFL games. Invariably, Kap came up. I told him, "The floor is yours. I am going to sit back, listen, and sip on this Shiner." I'm paraphrasing throughout this post, but the following quotes are the gist:



    "I get what he's doing, and he has the right to do so. I personally would go about it a different way, because what he's attempting to accomplish is being offset by the scores of people he's offending. Therefore, I have a hard time determining whether or not actions such as this are truly helpful in the grand scheme of things. I just think there are better ways to go about it. I like the fact he put his money where his mouth is, but honestly I wish he had done so at the exact same time he started to kneel during the National Anthem. Because he waited until the backlash, his intentions could easily be construed as disingenuous. That's the short version of what I think. Now, your turn."



    After hearing that, I had no clue what the score was to any game we were "watching." It wasn't what I expected to hear......at all. I shoved aside my beer while he began to imbibe his:



    "You have known me my entire life. You know full well that I don't blindly follow an ideology or formulate an opinion about someone based on the color of their skin. There is no left and right or black and white in my world. I think for myself, therefore what I'm about to say is strictly my unbiased opinion after processing everything I personally see, read, hear, and know.



    With that said, here are my thoughts. I doubt you'll like them, but here they are anyway. I think the mainstream media is guilty of providing no favors to anyone at times. Not only are certain stories sensationalized to the point of exacerbating the very problem they are attempting to ameliorate, but other vital stories are in essence being muted in the process. For instance, Colin Kapernick when compared to the mass shootings that have been going on for years in Chicago. I'd be willing to bet the amount of coverage CK has received in the past 3 weeks equates to roughly 3 years worth of press for the human destruction taking place in the Windy City. That is a travesty and utterly shameful. You look like you're dying to speak, so go."



    "Actually, I'm not. I can't argue with any of that. I can't begin to tell you how much it pains me to know that my brothers and sisters are gunning each other down like it's going out of style, yet seemingly nothing is being done about it."



    This discourse continued throughout an entire NFL game, but the inception was what I wanted to touch on. My views are captured within the quote above. His were too.



    But before you think this was a gathering consisting of two crusty whites guys in a blood red state, think again. If you paid close attention to his last quote, my friend is black. His life story is truly fascinating:



    He is originally from the same city I am and grew up in abject poverty. His parents were simultaneously incarcerated in the midst of his childhood, so he was essentially raised by his grandparents. He was a straight baller who earned a scholarship to a D-I school, and he parlayed his full ride into a degree which then catapulted him into a lucrative career in medical sales. He now makes money hand over fist and I couldn't be more happy for him.



    His background, what we discussed and what David said actually tie in together. I agree with it being about poverty, but I'll take it one step further: it's also about the amount of knowledge you fill your head with. If education is not an integral part of your life, escaping penury is going to be very difficult. And if you don't escape it, you're prone to live a life that gives you a better chance of being behind bars than it does reaching your high bar of aspirations. My friend should be a case study.



    In closing, I actually posed this exact question to him later on in our discussion:



    "Had you not gone to Georgia, where do you think you would be today?"



    "I shudder to think."







    I agree, poverty and education go hand in hand. If someone is wondering where their next meal is coming from, grades loose there priority. Without a strong education, there is little chance for upward mobility. And the cycle of poverty and violence continues. This cycle has little to do with race in today's America, and lots to do with the lack of importance put on education.



    Very good point there.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tony Larussa has thrown his hat in the ring saying he questions CK's sincerity and wouldnt allow such actions on any of his team's. Good on him.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TNP777
    Originally posted by: DIMEMAN

    What's your point with this!!! This type of treatment is long gone as it should be!

    I think for the most part you're right. Over-the-top displays of corporate racism (barring a white supremacist rally or some such) are behind us, thankfully so. But I sense a little "we've come a long way from those times, so let it rest!" sentiment. Yes, we have come a long way, but that doesn't mean we stop moving forward. As a nation, as a culture, as a society, I believe we have a long way to go. All sides of the racial divides in America have much work to do - the decades and centuries have built some pretty strong walls, and whether some people want to believe/accept that or not, there are those, institutional and individual, that would prefer those walls stand tall.

    As always, anything I've written is my opinion - nothing more and nothing less.



    The internet gave them a place to hide, but racism is just as alive as ever:

    (Warning, strong language)

    Link

    Link #2

    Most shocking link - this is a map of areas of the country that still tweet racist or homophobic remarks:

    Link


    The Woolworth counter has since been digitized - so hate speech not only follows a person around in public, but in their own home.
    My eBay Store =)

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rather than bring all the quotes back up I will say this:

    Galaxy27 - Great post!!! If everyone had this attitude we would be headed in a great direction to fixing this problem.

    TNP777 - Those tweets you linked to were horrific!! I know this goes on and probably always will to some degree. People with those attitudes make me sick!

    I personally don't like Obama, but not because he is black. But because of what he has done as President. I won't go any further than that on that.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44

    Tony Larussa has thrown his hat in the ring saying he questions CK's sincerity and wouldnt allow such actions on any of his team's. Good on him.




    Speaking of jerks.



    mark



    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Justacommeman

    Originally posted by: craig44

    Tony Larussa has thrown his hat in the ring saying he questions CK's sincerity and wouldnt allow such actions on any of his team's. Good on him.




    Speaking of jerks.



    mark







    What are you talking about? Care to share your thoughts?

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    I'm sure he's talking about LaRussa. I happen to agree, but I thought that loooooong before he weighed in on this particular topic. I've never liked him as a manager or as the person I perceive him to be.

    eta: 300!
This discussion has been closed.