You can get away with not honoring the flag in America
Probably not so much in places like Russia, China and North Korea. Kap wouldn't try that there and he wouldn't be so brave.
Freedom. We fight for it and everyone is covered by it. It's the way it works.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Could he do it in all of Western Europe, Australia, Canada and any other country that is considered a democracy? It's laughable that people who tout America as the greatest country in the world then use countries with deplorable human rights conditions as a comparison. Muhammad Ali wasn't great because he beat Chuck Wepner and Cleveland Williams, it's because he beat Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman.
Originally posted by: PSASAP Could he do it in all of Western Europe, Australia, Canada and any other country that is considered a democracy? It's laughable that people who tout America as the greatest country in the world then use countries with deplorable human rights conditions as a comparison.
Ferguson MO is having trouble finding police officers and since colin thinks the police do such a bad job and he may be out of a job soon maybe he could apply there and they will pay for his training.
Originally posted by: fergie23 Sports card collectors are overwhelmingly white men and given your posts in general it is a pretty sure bet but you never know I guess.
Robb
Originally posted by: craig44 Stereotype much?
Maybe you haven't been to a card show in the last... I don't know... ever? That's not a sterotype, it's a fact.
How best to describe what you see below? How about" Holy wall of text, Batman!"
I've read enough of this thread to see where people are coming from, and also can see where people on the Kaepernick issue are either willing to stubbornly hold on to their beliefs or are willing to dialogue or discuss. What follows is simply my opinion, which I will try to articulate clearly. I don't intent to offend or inflame - my sincere apologies if that happens. And I might ramble a bit, and one paragraph might not have a damn thing to do with any of the others. This issue, and others like it, invoke a lot of thoughts and I often struggle to put them down in cohesive order.
I'm an Air Force veteran - spent six of the best years of my life as a yute serving my country. Did a LOT of growing up and met some fantastic people that I still stay in touch with almost 26 years after I separated. As a veteran, I didn't take a single bit of offense to CK's action, nor do I for a second believe he intended to offend those currently serving or those that have served, nor was he or is he currently making a statement against the military.
I'm also a middle-aged white dude, and in my opinion I am absolutely incapable of clearly seeing or experiencing the institutional and subtle racism that exists in this country, and I 100% believe that it does still exist. I can see it a little, but not to the level that non-whites do. I like to think that I am empathetic to others, but I also cannot deny that the color of my skin allows me to walk through doors (not literal doors, but opportunities and life experience issues) more easily than 'people of color'.
Immigration is a hot-button topic right now, and so I think we can be predisposed to assume certain things when we hear someone speaking Spanish. But who am I to judge anything? I don't know that person's story, who they are, what they believe, how (or if) they sacrifice for their loved ones, what they struggle with, etc. Same with a young black man walking down the street. Maybe he's a punk, but he's probably not. And if he's a punk, how did he get that way? Was he beaten down by a system I'm incapable of seeing or understanding because I was born with white skin? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was surrounded by bad people and influenced into making poor choices. Or perhaps he's just a young black man who dresses and talks differently than me because that's the culture he's comfortable with.
I guess my point is that we as a country and society are too quick to form an opinion and defend it to the death without taking the time to slow down and see if there's something more to the (insert controversial issue here) story. To me, it looks like once the initial furor died down a little and CK had the opportunity to flesh out why he did what he did and actually listened to the man, they were able to at the very least walk away with the understanding that he's not some uninformed punk who's trying to grab some attention without any real idea why he's doing what he's doing.
Okay, I'll close this out... I think. I admit that I've never been a CK fan - I always thought he was an immature punk, blessed with an amazing talent but not much of brain - but that's not so different than the stereotypical athlete in that respect, right?. Plus, he's a 49er, so that automatically makes him a douche! BUT... what does it matter that he's grown an afro, or that 'he's trying to look more black'? Seriously, who gives a (insert expletive here)? What does that have to do with anything? That's a perfect example of institutional racism right there. Fact is, he IS black... so I guess he has the right to LOOK black. So just stop with that argument.
So out of nowhere CK makes this stand. It's hugely unpopular and sparks intense debate. "Where did this come from?" "What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." "Get of the country and go somewhere else." And much, much more.
"Where did this come from?" I dunno, but I'm going to guess that the young man has done some growing up and has the presence of mind to look around with new eyes and see some things he maybe took for granted while growing up in relative comfort in central Cali (CK grew up about 20 miles away from me, btw). Yeah, he had white adoptive parents, but the reality is that he's a man of color, and has witnessed the events in this country in the past few years (like we all have) and has seen oppression and injustice - oppression and injustice that I, as a middle aged white dude, don't have the automatic ability to see. Did he see that oppression/injustice before? I'm guessing he didn't, but now he does. Maybe he's developed the ability to see outside himself, or has changed his mind on certain things. I certainly was a much different man at 28 (which is CK's age now) than I did when I was 24, and I'm a MUCH different man at 49 than I was at 40. My worldview is much different, and I'm trying to not judge others so quickly. Not always successful, but I'm trying. Maybe, just maybe, that's the direction CK is heading.
"What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." Every right. Others may not like it, but the millions that have served this country, and the hundreds of thousands that have given their lives for it, have guaranteed him (and everyone else with an opinion) the right to speak, or to act as they see fit - even if it's hugely unpopular. And besides, I don't really think anyone with the capability of rational thought believes he intended to slight the military, past or present. So stop that, too.
Okay, now I'll close. If nothing else were to come out of this, I think just the fact that we're talking about these things is good. We NEED to talk about uncomfortable things, but ONLY if we're willing to have a rational conversation. I need to allow someone who believes differently from me to speak without interruption and actually listen to what (s)he's saying, and in return I should have the same courtesy. And then we continue to talk and do our best to at the very least understand where we're coming from. But instead we draw our lines in the sand and defend our point of view to the death. Yeah, that solves things.
eta: one of my all time favorite songs is What It's Like by Everlast. It came on the radio as I was composing one of the final paragraphs - I thought it was perfect timing given the subject at hand. It reminds me to consider points of view outside my own comfortable beliefs. We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes "Get a job you ****ing slob, " is all he replies God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues
Then you really might know what it's like (x4)
Perhaps we can all take a minute to imagine walking in another's shoes.
Sports card collectors are overwhelmingly white men and given your posts in general it is a pretty sure bet but you never know I guess.
Robb
Originally posted by: craig44
Stereotype much?
Maybe you haven't been to a card show in the last... I don't know... ever? That's not a sterotype, it's a fact.
How best to describe what you see below? How about" Holy wall of text, Batman!"
I've read enough of this thread to see where people are coming from, and also can see where people on the Kaepernick issue are either willing to stubbornly hold on to their beliefs or are willing to dialogue or discuss. What follows is simply my opinion, which I will try to articulate clearly. I don't intent to offend or inflame - my sincere apologies if that happens. And I might ramble a bit, and one paragraph might not have a damn thing to do with any of the others. This issue, and others like it, invoke a lot of thoughts and I often struggle to put them down in cohesive order.
I'm an Air Force veteran - spent six of the best years of my life as a yute serving my country. Did a LOT of growing up and met some fantastic people that I still stay in touch with almost 26 years after I separated. As a veteran, I didn't take a single bit of offense to CK's action, nor do I for a second believe he intended to offend those currently serving or those that have served, nor was he or is he currently making a statement against the military.
I'm also a middle-aged white dude, and in my opinion I am absolutely incapable of clearly seeing or experiencing the institutional and subtle racism that exists in this country, and I 100% believe that it does still exist. I can see it a little, but not to the level that non-whites do. I like to think that I am empathetic to others, but I also cannot deny that the color of my skin allows me to walk through doors (not literal doors, but opportunities and life experience issues) more easily than 'people of color'.
Immigration is a hot-button topic right now, and so I think we can be predisposed to assume certain things when we hear someone speaking Spanish. But who am I to judge anything? I don't know that person's story, who they are, what they believe, how (or if) they sacrifice for their loved ones, what they struggle with, etc. Same with a young black man walking down the street. Maybe he's a punk, but he's probably not. And if he's a punk, how did he get that way? Was he beaten down by a system I'm incapable of seeing or understanding because I was born with white skin? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was surrounded by bad people and influenced into making poor choices. Or perhaps he's just a young black man who dresses and talks differently than me because that's the culture he's comfortable with.
I guess my point is that we as a country and society are too quick to form an opinion and defend it to the death without taking the time to slow down and see if there's something more to the (insert controversial issue here) story. To me, it looks like once the initial furor died down a little and CK had the opportunity to flesh out why he did what he did and actually listened to the man, they were able to at the very least walk away with the understanding that he's not some uninformed punk who's trying to grab some attention without any real idea why he's doing what he's doing.
Okay, I'll close this out... I think. I admit that I've never been a CK fan - I always thought he was an immature punk, blessed with an amazing talent but not much of brain - but that's not so different than the stereotypical athlete in that respect, right?. Plus, he's a 49er, so that automatically makes him a douche! BUT... what does it matter that he's grown an afro, or that 'he's trying to look more black'? Seriously, who gives a (insert expletive here)? What does that have to do with anything? That's a perfect example of institutional racism right there. Fact is, he IS black... so I guess he has the right to LOOK black. So just stop with that argument.
So out of nowhere CK makes this stand. It's hugely unpopular and sparks intense debate. "Where did this come from?" "What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." "Get of the country and go somewhere else." And much, much more.
"Where did this come from?" I dunno, but I'm going to guess that the young man has done some growing up and has the presence of mind to look around with new eyes and see some things he maybe took for granted while growing up in relative comfort in central Cali (CK grew up about 20 miles away from me, btw). Yeah, he had white adoptive parents, but the reality is that he's a man of color, and has witnessed the events in this country in the past few years (like we all have) and has seen oppression and injustice - oppression and injustice that I, as a middle aged white dude, don't have the automatic ability to see. Did he see that oppression/injustice before? I'm guessing he didn't, but now he does. Maybe he's developed the ability to see outside himself, or has changed his mind on certain things. I certainly was a much different man at 28 (which is CK's age now) than I did when I was 24, and I'm a MUCH different man at 49 than I was at 40. My worldview is much different, and I'm trying to not judge others so quickly. Not always successful, but I'm trying. Maybe, just maybe, that's the direction CK is heading.
"What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." Every right. Others may not like it, but the millions that have served this country, and the hundreds of thousands that have given their lives for it, have guaranteed him (and everyone else with an opinion) the right to speak, or to act as they see fit - even if it's hugely unpopular. And besides, I don't really think anyone with the capability of rational thought believes he intended to slight the military, past or present. So stop that, too.
Okay, now I'll close. If nothing else were to come out of this, I think just the fact that we're talking about these things is good. We NEED to talk about uncomfortable things, but ONLY if we're willing to have a rational conversation. I need to allow someone who believes differently from me to speak without interruption and actually listen to what (s)he's saying, and in return I should have the same courtesy. And then we continue to talk and do our best to at the very least understand where we're coming from. But instead we draw our lines in the sand and defend our point of view to the death. Yeah, that solves things.
That was chocked full of words of truth. Well written.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sports card collectors are overwhelmingly white men and given your posts in general it is a pretty sure bet but you never know I guess.
Robb
Originally posted by: craig44
Stereotype much?
Maybe you haven't been to a card show in the last... I don't know... ever? That's not a sterotype, it's a fact.
How best to describe what you see below? How about" Holy wall of text, Batman!"
I've read enough of this thread to see where people are coming from, and also can see where people on the Kaepernick issue are either willing to stubbornly hold on to their beliefs or are willing to dialogue or discuss. What follows is simply my opinion, which I will try to articulate clearly. I don't intent to offend or inflame - my sincere apologies if that happens. And I might ramble a bit, and one paragraph might not have a damn thing to do with any of the others. This issue, and others like it, invoke a lot of thoughts and I often struggle to put them down in cohesive order.
I'm an Air Force veteran - spent six of the best years of my life as a yute serving my country. Did a LOT of growing up and met some fantastic people that I still stay in touch with almost 26 years after I separated. As a veteran, I didn't take a single bit of offense to CK's action, nor do I for a second believe he intended to offend those currently serving or those that have served, nor was he or is he currently making a statement against the military.
I'm also a middle-aged white dude, and in my opinion I am absolutely incapable of clearly seeing or experiencing the institutional and subtle racism that exists in this country, and I 100% believe that it does still exist. I can see it a little, but not to the level that non-whites do. I like to think that I am empathetic to others, but I also cannot deny that the color of my skin allows me to walk through doors (not literal doors, but opportunities and life experience issues) more easily than 'people of color'.
Immigration is a hot-button topic right now, and so I think we can be predisposed to assume certain things when we hear someone speaking Spanish. But who am I to judge anything? I don't know that person's story, who they are, what they believe, how (or if) they sacrifice for their loved ones, what they struggle with, etc. Same with a young black man walking down the street. Maybe he's a punk, but he's probably not. And if he's a punk, how did he get that way? Was he beaten down by a system I'm incapable of seeing or understanding because I was born with white skin? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was surrounded by bad people and influenced into making poor choices. Or perhaps he's just a young black man who dresses and talks differently than me because that's the culture he's comfortable with.
I guess my point is that we as a country and society are too quick to form an opinion and defend it to the death without taking the time to slow down and see if there's something more to the (insert controversial issue here) story. To me, it looks like once the initial furor died down a little and CK had the opportunity to flesh out why he did what he did and actually listened to the man, they were able to at the very least walk away with the understanding that he's not some uninformed punk who's trying to grab some attention without any real idea why he's doing what he's doing.
Okay, I'll close this out... I think. I admit that I've never been a CK fan - I always thought he was an immature punk, blessed with an amazing talent but not much of brain - but that's not so different than the stereotypical athlete in that respect, right?. Plus, he's a 49er, so that automatically makes him a douche! BUT... what does it matter that he's grown an afro, or that 'he's trying to look more black'? Seriously, who gives a (insert expletive here)? What does that have to do with anything? That's a perfect example of institutional racism right there. Fact is, he IS black... so I guess he has the right to LOOK black. So just stop with that argument.
So out of nowhere CK makes this stand. It's hugely unpopular and sparks intense debate. "Where did this come from?" "What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." "Get of the country and go somewhere else." And much, much more.
"Where did this come from?" I dunno, but I'm going to guess that the young man has done some growing up and has the presence of mind to look around with new eyes and see some things he maybe took for granted while growing up in relative comfort in central Cali (CK grew up about 20 miles away from me, btw). Yeah, he had white adoptive parents, but the reality is that he's a man of color, and has witnessed the events in this country in the past few years (like we all have) and has seen oppression and injustice - oppression and injustice that I, as a middle aged white dude, don't have the automatic ability to see. Did he see that oppression/injustice before? I'm guessing he didn't, but now he does. Maybe he's developed the ability to see outside himself, or has changed his mind on certain things. I certainly was a much different man at 28 (which is CK's age now) than I did when I was 24, and I'm a MUCH different man at 49 than I was at 40. My worldview is much different, and I'm trying to not judge others so quickly. Not always successful, but I'm trying. Maybe, just maybe, that's the direction CK is heading.
"What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." Every right. Others may not like it, but the millions that have served this country, and the hundreds of thousands that have given their lives for it, have guaranteed him (and everyone else with an opinion) the right to speak, or to act as they see fit - even if it's hugely unpopular. And besides, I don't really think anyone with the capability of rational thought believes he intended to slight the military, past or present. So stop that, too.
Okay, now I'll close. If nothing else were to come out of this, I think just the fact that we're talking about these things is good. We NEED to talk about uncomfortable things, but ONLY if we're willing to have a rational conversation. I need to allow someone who believes differently from me to speak without interruption and actually listen to what (s)he's saying, and in return I should have the same courtesy. And then we continue to talk and do our best to at the very least understand where we're coming from. But instead we draw our lines in the sand and defend our point of view to the death. Yeah, that solves things.
eta: one of my all time favorite songs is What It's Like by Everlast. It came on the radio as I was composing one of the final paragraphs - I thought it was perfect timing given the subject at hand. It reminds me to consider points of view outside my own comfortable beliefs.
We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job you ****ing slob, " is all he replies
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues
Then you really might know what it's like (x4)
Perhaps we can all take a minute to imagine walking in another's shoes.
I don't think anyone has said CK doesn't have the right to his little protest. Should he be disrespect the flag though? Absolutely not. He should be more specific in his protest. Maybe he has said in the last day or so and I haven't heard, but exactly which institution is alleging is racist? I would imagine where he is disrespecting the flag, he feels the United States government is institutionally racist. If that is in fact his view, I would say he is dead wrong.
Originally posted by: craig44 I don't think anyone has said CK doesn't have the right to his little protest. Should he be disrespect the flag though? Absolutely not. He should be more specific in his protest. Maybe he has said in the last day or so and I haven't heard, but exactly which institution is alleging is racist? I would imagine where he is disrespecting the flag, he feels the United States government is institutionally racist. If that is in fact his view, I would say he is dead wrong.
The snide "little protest" remark suggests to me that all you're interested in is doggedly holding to your point of view. To him, his form of protest and his ongoing activism is hardly "little".
As far as disrespecting the flag goes, I completely understand why you and most others feel that way. When the news first broke, I had that feeling myself. But is it possible that he feels that the flag, or what the flag represents to most of the country, leaves people of color feeling disrespected? That the flag, or what it represents or has represented, has left people of color feeling like they've been oppressed and are still being oppressed? Again, white folks probably don't automatically see or understand what people of color deal with in their everyday lives, but that doesn't mean it's not going on.
I don't think anyone has said CK doesn't have the right to his little protest. Should he be disrespect the flag though? Absolutely not. He should be more specific in his protest. Maybe he has said in the last day or so and I haven't heard, but exactly which institution is alleging is racist? I would imagine where he is disrespecting the flag, he feels the United States government is institutionally racist. If that is in fact his view, I would say he is dead wrong.
The snide "little protest" remark suggests to me that all you're interested in is doggedly holding to your point of view. To him, his form of protest and his ongoing activism is hardly "little".
As far as disrespecting the flag goes, I completely understand why you and most others feel that way. When the news first broke, I had that feeling myself. But is it possible that he feels that the flag, or what the flag represents to most of the country, leaves people of color feeling disrespected? That the flag, or what it represents or has represented, has left people of color feeling like they've been oppressed and are still being oppressed? Again, white folks probably don't automatically see or understand what people of color deal with in their everyday lives, but that doesn't mean it's not going on.
Why would I not "doggedly hold to my point of view" if I still feel I am right? I see no problem with people changing their point of view when faced with new or different information than that which they began with. If, however, that information stays the same I would hope a person would "doggedly hold" to their view point. I don't see that as a bad thing at all, but something a mature confident person should do. Don't you?
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
Originally posted by: craig44 I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
Name is David.
To start, it is not my job to spearhead CK's protesting strategies. That is up to him. He chose poorly and will reap the repercussions. Do I feel bad for him for any loss of sponsors, loss of popularity or death threats? Nope. It was fully his CHOICE to do what he did. I am not his "campaign" manager any more than I would have any interest in devising strategies for the NAACP, KKK, Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson.
And no, the horrible slave trade that happened 200, 300, 400 years ago does not affect daily life today. I would imagine the last slave owner/slave would have passed on nearly 100 years ago or so. Like I said earlier in the thread, the MUCH more pressing and decisive problem in our country is not institutional racism but poverty and those with very low socio-economic status. The root cause of much of our urban problems has much more to do with SES than with race.
Nice attempt at deflecting. I'm not asking you to spearhead anything, and you know that. I'm asking you what you think would have been an acceptable form of protest. You find his actions to be unacceptable and disrespectful, so what's a good alternative? Surely you have an opinion, or are you only interested in decrying his actions without actually dialoguing about why he took them.
We will have to agree to disagree about whether or not the evils of slavery continue to stain our country today. I think they do, but to what extent I cannot possibly say.
Oh, you must be bringing it up because you think I'm of Irish decent. Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
You mentioned that horrible things were done to your ancestors, and that you expect no reparations for the horrible abuse and racism they experienced. So if you have story to tell, why don't you enlighten us. And Craig/David, the word you meant is spelled descent, not decent. With all those letters after your name, you would think that spelling would be something you would have learned along the way.
Originally posted by: craig44 I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
I agree with most of what you are saying.....but the real cause is not this country.
Also and most importantly........I have no use or respect for ANYONE who doesn't respect the flag and our country...Period!!!
Nice attempt at deflecting. I'm not asking you to spearhead anything, and you know that. I'm asking you what you think would have been an acceptable form of protest. You find his actions to be unacceptable and disrespectful, so what's a good alternative? Surely you have an opinion, or are you only interested in decrying his actions without actually dialoguing about why he took them.
We will have to agree to disagree about whether or not the evils of slavery continue to stain our country today. I think they do, but to what extent I cannot possibly say.
No sir, not deflecting. It is not up to me to decide what CK does or doesn't do. Have things really gotten to the point in our country that disrespecting the flag is something that needs to be debated? I mean, it should be common decency. Good grief. Speaking of deflecting, no one will address the true root cause of many of our nation's problems. It is NOT institutional racism it is poverty.
Oh, you must be bringing it up because you think I'm of Irish decent.
Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
You mentioned that horrible things were done to your ancestors, and that you expect no reparations for the horrible abuse and racism they experienced. So if you have story to tell, why don't you enlighten us. And Craig/David, the word you meant is spelled descent, not decent. With all those letters after your name, you would think that spelling would be something you would have learned along the way.
That's the point, I have no story to tell. The racism my ancestors experienced did not happen to me. I was never a slave. I was never an indentured servant. Those horrible things do not affect how I live my daily life.
Oh, you must be bringing it up because you think I'm of Irish decent.
Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
You mentioned that horrible things were done to your ancestors, and that you expect no reparations for the horrible abuse and racism they experienced. So if you have story to tell, why don't you enlighten us. And Craig/David, the word you meant is spelled descent, not decent. With all those letters after your name, you would think that spelling would be something you would have learned along the way.
Seriously, were going to be the spelling police now too? Most of us type these posts on either phones or tablets. Ever hear of auto correct? Good grief.
You bring very little to the table. Why don't you go to bed now and let the adults talk.
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
I agree with most of what you are saying.....but the real cause is not this country.
Also and most importantly........I have no use or respect for ANYONE who doesn't respect the flag and our country...Period!!!
If you really believe that poverty is the root cause of our nation's problems, David, then why would you vote Republican? Republicans have very clearly shown that they care nothing about the poor, instead focusing on wedge issues that have nothing to do with alleviating the burden of poverty from the lower and lower middle class population. I'm making the educated guess that you are a Republican because you fit the profile.
I will abstain from turning this into a political discussion other than to say I believe the very tiny snippet about poverty in your post above to be fundamentally wrong.
Nothing will make a thread go poof faster than turning it political, well, maybe religion. Let's steer clear of those subjects.
Originally posted by: PSASAP If you really believe that poverty is the root cause of our nation's problems, David, then why would you vote Republican? Republicans have very clearly shown that they care nothing about the poor, instead focusing on wedge issues that have nothing to do with alleviating the burden of poverty from the lower and lower middle class population. I'm making the educated guess that you are a Republican because you fit the profile.
Originally posted by: galaxy27 This is about to go completely off the rails. It's not worth it, fellas.
That's why I bailed, I'm annoyed that I said I was done because I want to post some responses to a few things lol but I said I was done so I need to refrain. But again it's getting to the point of people touching on stuff that shouldn't be discussed here.
I'm most suspicious about the timing of his eh, gesture. Why did he just come out of the blue to do this? Did he even say or do anything on social media or whatnot about this issue? It was one thing when those guys at the 1968 Olympics did their Black Power salute, they didn't care about jumping on bandwagons or getting attention or whatnot...they felt they uniquely struck a blow for civil rights. I also feel the same way about Ali willing to have his title stripped and/or going to prison for avoiding the draft...after all why should he be forced to fight against people who "never called him n-word?"
As for that crap about the IOC President (forget the name) insisting politics doesn't belong in the Olympics...he didn't utter a peep regarding all those Nazi salutes at the 1936 games. Now as for Colin and those Saints(?) players doing that don't shoot pose (which was based off the Brown/Wilson incident, and it turned out Officer Wilson was innocent!), I think that was done more to jump on the bandwagon and only did so because they thought it was fashionable. Big difference.
Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Originally posted by: PSASAP Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Does Colin get a cut/portion of those jersey sales? Then I rest my case
Players do get a cut of jersey sales. The money is put into a collective fund and split up. Sort of a form of revenue sharing. All players reap the benefits of increased jersey sales.
This guy gets it. U.S. Hockey coach John Tortorella says if any of his players sit for the anthem, they will sit for that nights game. Good on you John. He appears to not be a sheeple.
This guy gets it. U.S. Hockey coach John Tortorella says if any of his players sit for the anthem, they will sit for that nights game. Good on you John. He appears to not be a sheeple.
Well it is the US Hockey team and the players choose to represent the US so there'd be no good reason why they would not want to stand for the anthem...and think of how silly they'd look sitting down on the gold medal podium while the anthem is playing!
Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
Originally posted by: PSASAP You've got to understand that David likes to make up his own definitions for words, to do otherwise would make him one of the sheeple.
Originally posted by: craig44 This guy gets it. U.S. Hockey coach John Tortorella says if any of his players sit for the anthem, they will sit for that nights game. Good on you John. He appears to not be a sheeple.
Tortorella as an example doesn't help , he's a douche
Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
You really just don't understand do you. No one cares about the inanimate object. It is about what it represents. It does not represent police departments or rogue officers. Nowadays it just seems so "cool" to people to have a cause. Good grief
Originally posted by: JHS5120 Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
You really just don't understand do you. No one cares about the inanimate object. It is about what it represents. It does not represent police departments or rogue officers. Nowadays it just seems so "cool" to people to have a cause. Good grief
Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
What does the inanimate object represent if not our boys in blue?
Originally posted by: JHS5120 Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
I couldn't put it any better than this. Excellent post.
David (and others): what would you have - a Pavlovian response to the presence of the Flag or playing of the Anthem? Would you have us all be lemmings? I love my country and I do stand in respectful silence with my hand or hat over my heart when the Anthem is played at a sporting event. But if future events or circumstances move me to do otherwise, then I absolutely will. I will not be forced to prove my love for this country or the ideals upon which it was founded just because tradition or a mob of USA USA USA chanters says I have to, the same way I don't have type "amen!" on Facebook to prove I love Jesus.
It is our national flag. It is not a state, city or town flag. It is not a corporate flag. It does not represent a sports team or a religion. It also does not represent any police department, state or local. It is a national flag. One can say it represents the armed forces that protect our nation. It does not represent a civilian police force. I'm sorry if you disagree, but you would be wrong. If CK wants to protest a specific police force, then he should do exactly that and not disrespect a flag that has nothing to do with a police force. If he wants to protest institutional racism, then specify which institution is in the wrong. He is clearly misguided in what he is doing (it seems his significant other could be behind his actions of late)
Comments
Probably not so much in places like Russia, China and North Korea. Kap wouldn't try that there and he wouldn't be so brave.
Freedom. We fight for it and everyone is covered by it. It's the way it works.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Could he do it in all of Western Europe, Australia, Canada and any other country that is considered a democracy? It's laughable that people who tout America as the greatest country in the world then use countries with deplorable human rights conditions as a comparison.
You just don't get it!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Lafayette Grading Set
Sports card collectors are overwhelmingly white men and given your posts in general it is a pretty sure bet but you never know I guess.
Robb
Stereotype much?
Maybe you haven't been to a card show in the last... I don't know... ever? That's not a sterotype, it's a fact.
How best to describe what you see below? How about" Holy wall of text, Batman!"
I've read enough of this thread to see where people are coming from, and also can see where people on the Kaepernick issue are either willing to stubbornly hold on to their beliefs or are willing to dialogue or discuss. What follows is simply my opinion, which I will try to articulate clearly. I don't intent to offend or inflame - my sincere apologies if that happens. And I might ramble a bit, and one paragraph might not have a damn thing to do with any of the others. This issue, and others like it, invoke a lot of thoughts and I often struggle to put them down in cohesive order.
I'm an Air Force veteran - spent six of the best years of my life as a yute serving my country. Did a LOT of growing up and met some fantastic people that I still stay in touch with almost 26 years after I separated. As a veteran, I didn't take a single bit of offense to CK's action, nor do I for a second believe he intended to offend those currently serving or those that have served, nor was he or is he currently making a statement against the military.
I'm also a middle-aged white dude, and in my opinion I am absolutely incapable of clearly seeing or experiencing the institutional and subtle racism that exists in this country, and I 100% believe that it does still exist. I can see it a little, but not to the level that non-whites do. I like to think that I am empathetic to others, but I also cannot deny that the color of my skin allows me to walk through doors (not literal doors, but opportunities and life experience issues) more easily than 'people of color'.
Immigration is a hot-button topic right now, and so I think we can be predisposed to assume certain things when we hear someone speaking Spanish. But who am I to judge anything? I don't know that person's story, who they are, what they believe, how (or if) they sacrifice for their loved ones, what they struggle with, etc. Same with a young black man walking down the street. Maybe he's a punk, but he's probably not. And if he's a punk, how did he get that way? Was he beaten down by a system I'm incapable of seeing or understanding because I was born with white skin? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was surrounded by bad people and influenced into making poor choices. Or perhaps he's just a young black man who dresses and talks differently than me because that's the culture he's comfortable with.
I guess my point is that we as a country and society are too quick to form an opinion and defend it to the death without taking the time to slow down and see if there's something more to the (insert controversial issue here) story. To me, it looks like once the initial furor died down a little and CK had the opportunity to flesh out why he did what he did and actually listened to the man, they were able to at the very least walk away with the understanding that he's not some uninformed punk who's trying to grab some attention without any real idea why he's doing what he's doing.
Okay, I'll close this out... I think. I admit that I've never been a CK fan - I always thought he was an immature punk, blessed with an amazing talent but not much of brain - but that's not so different than the stereotypical athlete in that respect, right?. Plus, he's a 49er, so that automatically makes him a douche!
So out of nowhere CK makes this stand. It's hugely unpopular and sparks intense debate. "Where did this come from?" "What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." "Get of the country and go somewhere else." And much, much more.
"Where did this come from?" I dunno, but I'm going to guess that the young man has done some growing up and has the presence of mind to look around with new eyes and see some things he maybe took for granted while growing up in relative comfort in central Cali (CK grew up about 20 miles away from me, btw). Yeah, he had white adoptive parents, but the reality is that he's a man of color, and has witnessed the events in this country in the past few years (like we all have) and has seen oppression and injustice - oppression and injustice that I, as a middle aged white dude, don't have the automatic ability to see. Did he see that oppression/injustice before? I'm guessing he didn't, but now he does. Maybe he's developed the ability to see outside himself, or has changed his mind on certain things. I certainly was a much different man at 28 (which is CK's age now) than I did when I was 24, and I'm a MUCH different man at 49 than I was at 40. My worldview is much different, and I'm trying to not judge others so quickly. Not always successful, but I'm trying. Maybe, just maybe, that's the direction CK is heading.
"What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." Every right. Others may not like it, but the millions that have served this country, and the hundreds of thousands that have given their lives for it, have guaranteed him (and everyone else with an opinion) the right to speak, or to act as they see fit - even if it's hugely unpopular. And besides, I don't really think anyone with the capability of rational thought believes he intended to slight the military, past or present. So stop that, too.
Okay, now I'll close. If nothing else were to come out of this, I think just the fact that we're talking about these things is good. We NEED to talk about uncomfortable things, but ONLY if we're willing to have a rational conversation. I need to allow someone who believes differently from me to speak without interruption and actually listen to what (s)he's saying, and in return I should have the same courtesy. And then we continue to talk and do our best to at the very least understand where we're coming from. But instead we draw our lines in the sand and defend our point of view to the death. Yeah, that solves things.
eta: one of my all time favorite songs is What It's Like by Everlast. It came on the radio as I was composing one of the final paragraphs - I thought it was perfect timing given the subject at hand. It reminds me to consider points of view outside my own comfortable beliefs.
We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job you ****ing slob, " is all he replies
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues
Then you really might know what it's like (x4)
Perhaps we can all take a minute to imagine walking in another's shoes.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Sports card collectors are overwhelmingly white men and given your posts in general it is a pretty sure bet but you never know I guess.
Robb
Stereotype much?
Maybe you haven't been to a card show in the last... I don't know... ever? That's not a sterotype, it's a fact.
How best to describe what you see below? How about" Holy wall of text, Batman!"
I've read enough of this thread to see where people are coming from, and also can see where people on the Kaepernick issue are either willing to stubbornly hold on to their beliefs or are willing to dialogue or discuss. What follows is simply my opinion, which I will try to articulate clearly. I don't intent to offend or inflame - my sincere apologies if that happens. And I might ramble a bit, and one paragraph might not have a damn thing to do with any of the others. This issue, and others like it, invoke a lot of thoughts and I often struggle to put them down in cohesive order.
I'm an Air Force veteran - spent six of the best years of my life as a yute serving my country. Did a LOT of growing up and met some fantastic people that I still stay in touch with almost 26 years after I separated. As a veteran, I didn't take a single bit of offense to CK's action, nor do I for a second believe he intended to offend those currently serving or those that have served, nor was he or is he currently making a statement against the military.
I'm also a middle-aged white dude, and in my opinion I am absolutely incapable of clearly seeing or experiencing the institutional and subtle racism that exists in this country, and I 100% believe that it does still exist. I can see it a little, but not to the level that non-whites do. I like to think that I am empathetic to others, but I also cannot deny that the color of my skin allows me to walk through doors (not literal doors, but opportunities and life experience issues) more easily than 'people of color'.
Immigration is a hot-button topic right now, and so I think we can be predisposed to assume certain things when we hear someone speaking Spanish. But who am I to judge anything? I don't know that person's story, who they are, what they believe, how (or if) they sacrifice for their loved ones, what they struggle with, etc. Same with a young black man walking down the street. Maybe he's a punk, but he's probably not. And if he's a punk, how did he get that way? Was he beaten down by a system I'm incapable of seeing or understanding because I was born with white skin? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was surrounded by bad people and influenced into making poor choices. Or perhaps he's just a young black man who dresses and talks differently than me because that's the culture he's comfortable with.
I guess my point is that we as a country and society are too quick to form an opinion and defend it to the death without taking the time to slow down and see if there's something more to the (insert controversial issue here) story. To me, it looks like once the initial furor died down a little and CK had the opportunity to flesh out why he did what he did and actually listened to the man, they were able to at the very least walk away with the understanding that he's not some uninformed punk who's trying to grab some attention without any real idea why he's doing what he's doing.
Okay, I'll close this out... I think. I admit that I've never been a CK fan - I always thought he was an immature punk, blessed with an amazing talent but not much of brain - but that's not so different than the stereotypical athlete in that respect, right?. Plus, he's a 49er, so that automatically makes him a douche!
So out of nowhere CK makes this stand. It's hugely unpopular and sparks intense debate. "Where did this come from?" "What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." "Get of the country and go somewhere else." And much, much more.
"Where did this come from?" I dunno, but I'm going to guess that the young man has done some growing up and has the presence of mind to look around with new eyes and see some things he maybe took for granted while growing up in relative comfort in central Cali (CK grew up about 20 miles away from me, btw). Yeah, he had white adoptive parents, but the reality is that he's a man of color, and has witnessed the events in this country in the past few years (like we all have) and has seen oppression and injustice - oppression and injustice that I, as a middle aged white dude, don't have the automatic ability to see. Did he see that oppression/injustice before? I'm guessing he didn't, but now he does. Maybe he's developed the ability to see outside himself, or has changed his mind on certain things. I certainly was a much different man at 28 (which is CK's age now) than I did when I was 24, and I'm a MUCH different man at 49 than I was at 40. My worldview is much different, and I'm trying to not judge others so quickly. Not always successful, but I'm trying. Maybe, just maybe, that's the direction CK is heading.
"What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." Every right. Others may not like it, but the millions that have served this country, and the hundreds of thousands that have given their lives for it, have guaranteed him (and everyone else with an opinion) the right to speak, or to act as they see fit - even if it's hugely unpopular. And besides, I don't really think anyone with the capability of rational thought believes he intended to slight the military, past or present. So stop that, too.
Okay, now I'll close. If nothing else were to come out of this, I think just the fact that we're talking about these things is good. We NEED to talk about uncomfortable things, but ONLY if we're willing to have a rational conversation. I need to allow someone who believes differently from me to speak without interruption and actually listen to what (s)he's saying, and in return I should have the same courtesy. And then we continue to talk and do our best to at the very least understand where we're coming from. But instead we draw our lines in the sand and defend our point of view to the death. Yeah, that solves things.
That was chocked full of words of truth. Well written.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sports card collectors are overwhelmingly white men and given your posts in general it is a pretty sure bet but you never know I guess.
Robb
Stereotype much?
Maybe you haven't been to a card show in the last... I don't know... ever? That's not a sterotype, it's a fact.
How best to describe what you see below? How about" Holy wall of text, Batman!"
I've read enough of this thread to see where people are coming from, and also can see where people on the Kaepernick issue are either willing to stubbornly hold on to their beliefs or are willing to dialogue or discuss. What follows is simply my opinion, which I will try to articulate clearly. I don't intent to offend or inflame - my sincere apologies if that happens. And I might ramble a bit, and one paragraph might not have a damn thing to do with any of the others. This issue, and others like it, invoke a lot of thoughts and I often struggle to put them down in cohesive order.
I'm an Air Force veteran - spent six of the best years of my life as a yute serving my country. Did a LOT of growing up and met some fantastic people that I still stay in touch with almost 26 years after I separated. As a veteran, I didn't take a single bit of offense to CK's action, nor do I for a second believe he intended to offend those currently serving or those that have served, nor was he or is he currently making a statement against the military.
I'm also a middle-aged white dude, and in my opinion I am absolutely incapable of clearly seeing or experiencing the institutional and subtle racism that exists in this country, and I 100% believe that it does still exist. I can see it a little, but not to the level that non-whites do. I like to think that I am empathetic to others, but I also cannot deny that the color of my skin allows me to walk through doors (not literal doors, but opportunities and life experience issues) more easily than 'people of color'.
Immigration is a hot-button topic right now, and so I think we can be predisposed to assume certain things when we hear someone speaking Spanish. But who am I to judge anything? I don't know that person's story, who they are, what they believe, how (or if) they sacrifice for their loved ones, what they struggle with, etc. Same with a young black man walking down the street. Maybe he's a punk, but he's probably not. And if he's a punk, how did he get that way? Was he beaten down by a system I'm incapable of seeing or understanding because I was born with white skin? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was surrounded by bad people and influenced into making poor choices. Or perhaps he's just a young black man who dresses and talks differently than me because that's the culture he's comfortable with.
I guess my point is that we as a country and society are too quick to form an opinion and defend it to the death without taking the time to slow down and see if there's something more to the (insert controversial issue here) story. To me, it looks like once the initial furor died down a little and CK had the opportunity to flesh out why he did what he did and actually listened to the man, they were able to at the very least walk away with the understanding that he's not some uninformed punk who's trying to grab some attention without any real idea why he's doing what he's doing.
Okay, I'll close this out... I think. I admit that I've never been a CK fan - I always thought he was an immature punk, blessed with an amazing talent but not much of brain - but that's not so different than the stereotypical athlete in that respect, right?. Plus, he's a 49er, so that automatically makes him a douche!
So out of nowhere CK makes this stand. It's hugely unpopular and sparks intense debate. "Where did this come from?" "What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." "Get of the country and go somewhere else." And much, much more.
"Where did this come from?" I dunno, but I'm going to guess that the young man has done some growing up and has the presence of mind to look around with new eyes and see some things he maybe took for granted while growing up in relative comfort in central Cali (CK grew up about 20 miles away from me, btw). Yeah, he had white adoptive parents, but the reality is that he's a man of color, and has witnessed the events in this country in the past few years (like we all have) and has seen oppression and injustice - oppression and injustice that I, as a middle aged white dude, don't have the automatic ability to see. Did he see that oppression/injustice before? I'm guessing he didn't, but now he does. Maybe he's developed the ability to see outside himself, or has changed his mind on certain things. I certainly was a much different man at 28 (which is CK's age now) than I did when I was 24, and I'm a MUCH different man at 49 than I was at 40. My worldview is much different, and I'm trying to not judge others so quickly. Not always successful, but I'm trying. Maybe, just maybe, that's the direction CK is heading.
"What right does this multi-millionaire athlete have to disrespect the flag/the country/the military/etc?." Every right. Others may not like it, but the millions that have served this country, and the hundreds of thousands that have given their lives for it, have guaranteed him (and everyone else with an opinion) the right to speak, or to act as they see fit - even if it's hugely unpopular. And besides, I don't really think anyone with the capability of rational thought believes he intended to slight the military, past or present. So stop that, too.
Okay, now I'll close. If nothing else were to come out of this, I think just the fact that we're talking about these things is good. We NEED to talk about uncomfortable things, but ONLY if we're willing to have a rational conversation. I need to allow someone who believes differently from me to speak without interruption and actually listen to what (s)he's saying, and in return I should have the same courtesy. And then we continue to talk and do our best to at the very least understand where we're coming from. But instead we draw our lines in the sand and defend our point of view to the death. Yeah, that solves things.
eta: one of my all time favorite songs is What It's Like by Everlast. It came on the radio as I was composing one of the final paragraphs - I thought it was perfect timing given the subject at hand. It reminds me to consider points of view outside my own comfortable beliefs.
We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job you ****ing slob, " is all he replies
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues
Then you really might know what it's like (x4)
Perhaps we can all take a minute to imagine walking in another's shoes.
I don't think anyone has said CK doesn't have the right to his little protest. Should he be disrespect the flag though? Absolutely not. He should be more specific in his protest. Maybe he has said in the last day or so and I haven't heard, but exactly which institution is alleging is racist? I would imagine where he is disrespecting the flag, he feels the United States government is institutionally racist. If that is in fact his view, I would say he is dead wrong.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Colin's fiance' is an influence to his stance...read above...
Erik
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don't think anyone has said CK doesn't have the right to his little protest. Should he be disrespect the flag though? Absolutely not. He should be more specific in his protest. Maybe he has said in the last day or so and I haven't heard, but exactly which institution is alleging is racist? I would imagine where he is disrespecting the flag, he feels the United States government is institutionally racist. If that is in fact his view, I would say he is dead wrong.
The snide "little protest" remark suggests to me that all you're interested in is doggedly holding to your point of view. To him, his form of protest and his ongoing activism is hardly "little".
As far as disrespecting the flag goes, I completely understand why you and most others feel that way. When the news first broke, I had that feeling myself. But is it possible that he feels that the flag, or what the flag represents to most of the country, leaves people of color feeling disrespected? That the flag, or what it represents or has represented, has left people of color feeling like they've been oppressed and are still being oppressed? Again, white folks probably don't automatically see or understand what people of color deal with in their everyday lives, but that doesn't mean it's not going on.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Dave
I don't think anyone has said CK doesn't have the right to his little protest. Should he be disrespect the flag though? Absolutely not. He should be more specific in his protest. Maybe he has said in the last day or so and I haven't heard, but exactly which institution is alleging is racist? I would imagine where he is disrespecting the flag, he feels the United States government is institutionally racist. If that is in fact his view, I would say he is dead wrong.
The snide "little protest" remark suggests to me that all you're interested in is doggedly holding to your point of view. To him, his form of protest and his ongoing activism is hardly "little".
As far as disrespecting the flag goes, I completely understand why you and most others feel that way. When the news first broke, I had that feeling myself. But is it possible that he feels that the flag, or what the flag represents to most of the country, leaves people of color feeling disrespected? That the flag, or what it represents or has represented, has left people of color feeling like they've been oppressed and are still being oppressed? Again, white folks probably don't automatically see or understand what people of color deal with in their everyday lives, but that doesn't mean it's not going on.
Why would I not "doggedly hold to my point of view" if I still feel I am right? I see no problem with people changing their point of view when faced with new or different information than that which they began with. If, however, that information stays the same I would hope a person would "doggedly hold" to their view point. I don't see that as a bad thing at all, but something a mature confident person should do. Don't you?
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Do you happen to be one of those who believes in the fabricated history of Irish slaves?
link
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
Name is David.
To start, it is not my job to spearhead CK's protesting strategies. That is up to him. He chose poorly and will reap the repercussions. Do I feel bad for him for any loss of sponsors, loss of popularity or death threats? Nope. It was fully his CHOICE to do what he did. I am not his "campaign" manager any more than I would have any interest in devising strategies for the NAACP, KKK, Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson.
And no, the horrible slave trade that happened 200, 300, 400 years ago does not affect daily life today. I would imagine the last slave owner/slave would have passed on nearly 100 years ago or so. Like I said earlier in the thread, the MUCH more pressing and decisive problem in our country is not institutional racism but poverty and those with very low socio-economic status. The root cause of much of our urban problems has much more to do with SES than with race.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Craig,
Do you happen to be one of those who believes in the fabricated history of Irish slaves?
link
What in the world are you talking about, Irish slaves.
Oh, you must be bringing it up because you think I'm of Irish decent.
Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
We will have to agree to disagree about whether or not the evils of slavery continue to stain our country today. I think they do, but to what extent I cannot possibly say.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
You mentioned that horrible things were done to your ancestors, and that you expect no reparations for the horrible abuse and racism they experienced. So if you have story to tell, why don't you enlighten us. And Craig/David, the word you meant is spelled descent, not decent. With all those letters after your name, you would think that spelling would be something you would have learned along the way.
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
I agree with most of what you are saying.....but the real cause is not this country.
Also and most importantly........I have no use or respect for ANYONE who doesn't respect the flag and our country...Period!!!
Nice attempt at deflecting. I'm not asking you to spearhead anything, and you know that. I'm asking you what you think would have been an acceptable form of protest. You find his actions to be unacceptable and disrespectful, so what's a good alternative? Surely you have an opinion, or are you only interested in decrying his actions without actually dialoguing about why he took them.
We will have to agree to disagree about whether or not the evils of slavery continue to stain our country today. I think they do, but to what extent I cannot possibly say.
No sir, not deflecting. It is not up to me to decide what CK does or doesn't do. Have things really gotten to the point in our country that disrespecting the flag is something that needs to be debated? I mean, it should be common decency. Good grief. Speaking of deflecting, no one will address the true root cause of many of our nation's problems. It is NOT institutional racism it is poverty.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Oh, you must be bringing it up because you think I'm of Irish decent.
Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
You mentioned that horrible things were done to your ancestors, and that you expect no reparations for the horrible abuse and racism they experienced. So if you have story to tell, why don't you enlighten us. And Craig/David, the word you meant is spelled descent, not decent. With all those letters after your name, you would think that spelling would be something you would have learned along the way.
That's the point, I have no story to tell. The racism my ancestors experienced did not happen to me. I was never a slave. I was never an indentured servant. Those horrible things do not affect how I live my daily life.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Oh, you must be bringing it up because you think I'm of Irish decent.
Why on earth would you make such an assumption?
You mentioned that horrible things were done to your ancestors, and that you expect no reparations for the horrible abuse and racism they experienced. So if you have story to tell, why don't you enlighten us. And Craig/David, the word you meant is spelled descent, not decent. With all those letters after your name, you would think that spelling would be something you would have learned along the way.
Seriously, were going to be the spelling police now too? Most of us type these posts on either phones or tablets. Ever hear of auto correct? Good grief.
You bring very little to the table. Why don't you go to bed now and let the adults talk.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I would never discourage anyone from protesting or disagreeing with the system, government what have you, but do it in a respectful way. If you are denigrating, belittling or being disrespectful, then that is a poor way to protest. That is why I call CK's protest a little protest. Because I don't respect the way he is doing it and there are MANY servicemen who feel the same.
T the reason he did it the way he did was to create shock value to get a bigger audience. well that shock value was VERY disrespectful. He is not a brave hero. The brave hero's are the vets who have and are fighting for CK's freedom to carry out his little protest. The police are also brave hero's for keeping our nation from falling into chaos. Who do you think CK will be calling when he hears a bump in the night, Al Sharpton?
As far as what the flag used to represent, that point is kind of moot, no? I understand about slavery and indentured servitude and the horrible things that happened in our past. Those specific things do not impact our current daily life. There is no one left living who experienced those things. People of my heritage experienced horrible abuse and racism in the past, but it does not affect us today. So while those things were horrible, they do not have bearing on race relations today. I expect no reparations for things done to my ancestors and I expect no sympathy either. I'm sorry if the left disagrees.
So answer me this. First, let's assume that CK really has become socially conscious and that he wants to use the platform he has to make a statement. What form of protest would have been acceptable to you, then? You say he was disrespectful, and I understand where you're coming from. So what form of protest would be respectful? Giving money? Starting a foundation? Okay, he did that - admittedly after his initial form of protest broke the interwebs. So if he had done just that: called a presser, announced he was donating $1M to whoever/whatever, and then went back to being a jock - would you have noticed? Would anyone have noticed? Sure, lots of people would have said, "oh, that's a really nice thing he did", and some might have said, "big deal - an athlete who has more money than 95% of the country will never see in their lifetime gave some of it away to make himself feel better."
I think that's exactly what would have happened. How many foundations or charities are started on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis that are pretty much not noticed by anyone except those few that are directly affected by said foundation/charity? How many of them have been started by athletes, and we see the story featured before a big game and we think, "oh, that's nice - good for him", and then we forget all about it? But instead, CK sits for three Anthems, and then kneels - and we're talking about it. He didn't flip a bird at the flag, he didn't scream and rant at the flag or the Anthem or the country, but instead silently sat. And then things blew up, and he kept a calm demeanor and didn't shy away from the controversy.
So answer me. How should CK have gone about things that would have been appropriate to you? Or should he just shut his damn mouth and make good things happen for the laundry he's wearing? Do you believe pro athletes should be seen, but not heard? Or if they dare to speak, they had damn well better expound on the virtues of God, country, apple pie and Chevrolet? Tell me, how should he have spoken out about oppression and injustice that makes you feel safe in your beliefs?
No, CK is not a brave hero on the scale of those who lay their lives down for this country, or like our firemen and policemen do for our communities. But I maintain that it takes a certain level of courage to do what he's doing. He's putting his reputation, his public image, his money and quite possibly his life to take a public stance on something he believes in - and if you don't think he's received death threats for his actions, I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about. He's had ample time to back off his initial actions, ample time to play the "you misunderstood me" card. But he hasn't. He's not waffling, and I for one have gained a measure of respect for him. Not the same measure of respect that I'd ever give a serviceman/policeman/fireman who was killed or injured in line of duty, but a measure nonetheless.
Craig (or is it David?), I sincerely am happy that racism in your culture's past doesn't affect you today, or at the very least you don't seem to use it as an excuse for who and where you are today. Good for you. That happens to be a pet peeve of mine, btw - people who wallow in the past and lay 100% of the blame for their current problems on the shoulders of past circumstances. However, saying that abuse and racism in the past doesn't affect our communities and our country today is simply not believable, at least not in my opinion. I'll leave it at that - you and I probably disagree on that premise, and that's okay. I don't think we're going to convince each other differently. Cool? Cool.
Oh, and let me respond to the person that lost respect for Jackie Robinson because he said, "I cannot stand and sing the Anthem. I cannot salute the flag." You, sir, nauseate me. Jackie Robinson is a genuine American hero. He endured abuse and evil you and I can't even dream of. He had as much right and reason to say the things he said because he bloody well experienced first hand the horrors and evil of institutional, subtle and direct, personal racism.
If my strong indictment of this other forum member gets me thrown off CU, so be it. You lost respect for Jackie? Good, 'cause he and people like him don't need the kind of respect you're handing out.
deuces
edited for missing words and spelling mistakes
I agree with most of what you are saying.....but the real cause is not this country.
Also and most importantly........I have no use or respect for ANYONE who doesn't respect the flag and our country...Period!!!
+1.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Nothing will make a thread go poof faster than turning it political, well, maybe religion. Let's steer clear of those subjects.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If you really believe that poverty is the root cause of our nation's problems, David, then why would you vote Republican? Republicans have very clearly shown that they care nothing about the poor, instead focusing on wedge issues that have nothing to do with alleviating the burden of poverty from the lower and lower middle class population. I'm making the educated guess that you are a Republican because you fit the profile.
Never mind.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
This is about to go completely off the rails. It's not worth it, fellas.
That's why I bailed, I'm annoyed that I said I was done because I want to post some responses to a few things lol but I said I was done so I need to refrain. But again it's getting to the point of people touching on stuff that shouldn't be discussed here.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
This thread needs Perkies.
I miss them Geordie!! I got a very blunt PM from a mod ordering me to get rid of my sig line awhile ago
As for that crap about the IOC President (forget the name) insisting politics doesn't belong in the Olympics...he didn't utter a peep regarding all those Nazi salutes at the 1936 games. Now as for Colin and those Saints(?) players doing that don't shoot pose (which was based off the Brown/Wilson incident, and it turned out Officer Wilson was innocent!), I think that was done more to jump on the bandwagon and only did so because they thought it was fashionable. Big difference.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Quick everyone, let's jump on the bandwagon!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Quick everyone, let's jump on the bandwagon!
I think I'll pass!
Colin Kaepernick's #7 jersey is now the fifth best selling jersey in the league, according to NFLshop.com. It previously had been the 20th most popular jersey among 49er players.
Does Colin get a cut/portion of those jersey sales? Then I rest my case
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This guy gets it. U.S. Hockey coach John Tortorella says if any of his players sit for the anthem, they will sit for that nights game. Good on you John. He appears to not be a sheeple.
Well it is the US Hockey team and the players choose to represent the US so there'd be no good reason why they would not want to stand for the anthem...and think of how silly they'd look sitting down on the gold medal podium while the anthem is playing!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
You've got to understand that David likes to make up his own definitions for words, to do otherwise would make him one of the sheeple.
Be your own man, make up words.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
This guy gets it. U.S. Hockey coach John Tortorella says if any of his players sit for the anthem, they will sit for that nights game. Good on you John. He appears to not be a sheeple.
Tortorella as an example doesn't help , he's a douche
Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
You really just don't understand do you. No one cares about the inanimate object. It is about what it represents. It does not represent police departments or rogue officers. Nowadays it just seems so "cool" to people to have a cause. Good grief
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You've got to understand that David likes to make up his own definitions for words, to do otherwise would make him one of the sheeple.
Again, you bring very, very little to the table.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
You really just don't understand do you. No one cares about the inanimate object. It is about what it represents. It does not represent police departments or rogue officers. Nowadays it just seems so "cool" to people to have a cause. Good grief
Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
What does the inanimate object represent if not our boys in blue?
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Obediently standing for a song to honor an inanimate object without critically assessing the merits of the gesture is the literal embodiment of "sheeple."
I couldn't put it any better than this. Excellent post.
David (and others): what would you have - a Pavlovian response to the presence of the Flag or playing of the Anthem? Would you have us all be lemmings? I love my country and I do stand in respectful silence with my hand or hat over my heart when the Anthem is played at a sporting event. But if future events or circumstances move me to do otherwise, then I absolutely will. I will not be forced to prove my love for this country or the ideals upon which it was founded just because tradition or a mob of USA USA USA chanters says I have to, the same way I don't have type "amen!" on Facebook to prove I love Jesus.
Seriously, exactly who are the sheeple here?
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Again, you bring very, very little to the table.
In davidspeak, I know that actually means I bring a significant amount to this discussion, so thanks, I appreciate it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.