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1919 Mercury Dime - CONFIRMED: DDO Discovery Piece (Census in 1st post)

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  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,162 ✭✭✭✭
    Why does the dot between IN and GOD not appear to show doubling on this second example?
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Why does the dot between IN and GOD not appear to show doubling on this second example? >>



    We have been discussing this amongst ourselves, and have not yet come up with an answer. Tis' a puzzlement!

    Edited to add: This is why we need a third specimen! Cherrypickers of the World, get out there this weekend and find one!

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Why does the dot between IN and GOD not appear to show doubling on this second example? >>



    We have been discussing this amongst ourselves, and have not yet come up with an answer. Tis' a puzzlement!

    Edited to add: This is why we need a third specimen! Cherrypickers of the World, get out there this weekend and find one!

    TD >>



    Lighting - angle, die state?, I'm not sure. I don't have mine in-hand to re-check or take macro pictures.

    Probably going to need some uncirculated pieces to show up to see what's fully going on in that area. My coin may have had some trauma to it, I still can't tell if that's a clash or something else to the right of "GOD".
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bump to get the last page showing.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,651 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Why does the dot between IN and GOD not appear to show doubling on this second example? >>



    We have been discussing this amongst ourselves, and have not yet come up with an answer. Tis' a puzzlement!

    Edited to add: This is why we need a third specimen! Cherrypickers of the World, get out there this weekend and find one!

    TD >>



    Lighting - angle, die state?, I'm not sure. I don't have mine in-hand to re-check or take macro pictures.

    Probably going to need some uncirculated pieces to show up to see what's fully going on in that area. My coin may have had some trauma to it, I still can't tell if that's a clash or something else to the right of "GOD". >>




    The dot on your coin is definitely part of the doubling, and not the result of damage or clashing. On the XF specimen I can faintly see what look like angled die polish marks from roughly 2:00 to 8:00 just to the right of the dot. I don't know why that one element would have been polished off without the others showing signs of polish as well, but that would be one explanation. It would also mean the die ran long enough to be polished at least once, creating two distinct die states.

    More high grade pieces are really needed for study - get out there and find them, guys. image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,506 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I went to a nice show today and searched about 3 dozen...from VG to low MS and did not find one. Sarasota, FL about 40+ dealers with lots of tables.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is all wonderfully exciting, and great fun to be following here! To be massively redundant: congratulations!!

    I immediately dug out my Merc Whitman from childhood and checked my 1919-P: no luck.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I went to a nice show today and searched about 3 dozen...from VG to low MS and did not find one. Sarasota, FL about 40+ dealers with lots of tables. >>



    Just out of curiosity - were any of the dealers aware you were looking for this piece? Tom sent the press releases out, but I'm thinking this weekend may still have an opportunity before it fully hits the news outlets.

    Sadly, I have nothing around me to go look through, but am hoping for the forum regulars to strike gold for sure!
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • GManGMan Posts: 790 ✭✭
    I called a long time dealer I've known for years just this morning. He hadn't heard of it yet. So I think it still isn't common knowledge and a lot of dealers might be wondering why people are looking for 1919-P Mercs right now. My guy said he most likely a few rolls to look through.
    GMan
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    great thread!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mystery of the dot solved. Bill Fivaz took a picture of the obverse of the XF coin that clearly shows the doubling on the dot. The closeup of the motto that did not show the doubled dot was just a fluke of the lighting.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,506 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I went to a nice show today and searched about 3 dozen...from VG to low MS and did not find one. Sarasota, FL about 40+ dealers with lots of tables. >>



    Just out of curiosity - were any of the dealers aware you were looking for this piece? Tom sent the press releases out, but I'm thinking this weekend may still have an opportunity before it fully hits the news outlets.

    Sadly, I have nothing around me to go look through, but am hoping for the forum regulars to strike gold for sure! >>

    I of course did not advertise that I was trying to Cherrypick the dealers but one dealer was aware...he brought it up. He had attributed a few Merc Varieties that he was selling so he says that he tends to l"try" to look for things on "dates and mint marks." When he noticed I was looking with a 20x and looking at only Mercs he asked if I had heard about the "1919-S DDO"....to say the least I giggled a little but was kind enough to let him know it was the 1919-P. I was in no hurry and was looking through lots of his stuff and then he grabbed a box of Mercs I had not yet looked through so that he could examine them. He looked at his few 1919 examples, set the box back down on the counter in front of me, just as I was ready for it, and said that he checked all of the dates on the 1919 examples and did not see anything. I then laughed a little and told him that he was looking in the wrong place and I would be happy to let him know if he had one. He laughed and let me search. He was a nice guy and very easy going and I am happy to help some of the nice dealers out from time to time. So, to answer your question, one dealer brought up the topic to me as I was trying to Cherrypick Mercury Dimes for three hours. image

    I am writing up my show report after this reply so I will put this blurb in there with it.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭
    The only thing "questionable" on that XF specimen is the hair on WE. image That scares me.....

    You can really see the split in the last T in TRUST on that new specimen.
    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't go hairing splits?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK, folks. It's the weekend. Coin showtime!

    Start your cherrypicking!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>OK, folks. It's the weekend. Coin showtime!

    Start your cherrypicking! >>



    I went to the only show in my area - a 15 or so table show, with about 5 of them being post cards, stamps, comic books, etc. So... of the 10 tables there, I found SIX 1919-P Dimes (with 2 dealers), of which, none were this DDO.

    6 down (plus the one I found, plus #2, so...), 34,699,992 left to go through.

    I still think more of these are going to be found in junk boxes, bulk 90% bags, etc than will be found in dealer cases. When I asked if they had any 1919 Mercury Dimes, the usual response is something like - We don't carry many common coins - unless they are BU, they get scrapped for silver.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think that very last point you make, Jeff, might be where many of them ended up, assuming there were very many in the first place.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What a GREAT find!!!! Congrats is in order here. Way to go!!!!!!!!image
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭
    I looked at all the 1919 Mercs I could find in Nevada, IA this weekend.

    No joy.

    One gal behind a table gave me the "eye", while I looked through two different binders containing 1919 Mercs with a loupe. "What's up with that?" was her expression.

    Probably not too many loupe lookers in her binders.
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Why does the dot between IN and GOD not appear to show doubling on this second example? >>



    That is a sign of die usage/wear which may equate to people being able to find more examples. The other option could be the die was clashed and the die was ground to repair the clash, and while repairing the die the just didn't notice the doubled die. In any case is it normal for dies to wear, and stuff like this happens. One Mercury Dime I know quite a bit about is the 1936-S FS-110. I have seen earlier die examples which show more details. Then there are some where the markings have become less and less. This gets to a point on late die state coins which the markings around the date are gone completely. These examples have a die scratch on the reverse which is not on the earlier die strike examples. What can't be known is if a worker found the marking and repaired the die, or if the natural die usage removed the markings.

    I know the show I setup at today had a couple of people looking for the 1919 DDO. Neither stopped back to report, so I am pretty sure they didn't find anything. Once this is publicized it should be fun to see how many are found.

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • gonzergonzer Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the better coin stories in years!
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seems Dave Lange is on the ball. NGCs listing for this coin.

    http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-varieties/mercury-dimes/1919-ddo-10c-fs-101-5636
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>With permission from Bill Fivaz, here is the motto from specimen #2, the XF piece.

    image

    As well as mine for comparison

    image >>



    How in the hell does that not get noticed for nearly 100 years?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is all wonderfully exciting, and great fun to be following here! To be massively redundant: congratulations!!

    I immediately dug out my Merc Whitman from childhood and checked my 1919-P: no luck. >>



    Absolutely! Same here, the one 1919 dime I have is not the DDO.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Why does the dot between IN and GOD not appear to show doubling on this second example? >>



    That is a sign of die usage/wear which may equate to people being able to find more examples. The other option could be the die was clashed and the die was ground to repair the clash, and while repairing the die the just didn't notice the doubled die. In any case is it normal for dies to wear, and stuff like this happens. One Mercury Dime I know quite a bit about is the 1936-S FS-110. I have seen earlier die examples which show more details. Then there are some where the markings have become less and less. This gets to a point on late die state coins which the markings around the date are gone completely. These examples have a die scratch on the reverse which is not on the earlier die strike examples. What can't be known is if a worker found the marking and repaired the die, or if the natural die usage removed the markings.

    I know the show I setup at today had a couple of people looking for the 1919 DDO. Neither stopped back to report, so I am pretty sure they didn't find anything. Once this is publicized it should be fun to see how many are found. >>



    As I mentioned in a subsequent posting, the doubled dot is there on the higher grade coin. Bill Fivaz took a full obverse shot of the coin that clearly showed it. The apparent absence of it on the closeup he did of it must have been a fluke of the lighting.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How in the hell does that not get noticed for nearly 100 years? >>



    Ain't this hobby great?
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have one "Major Variety and Oddity Guide of United States Coins" by Frank Spadone - the 4th edition from 1967.

    For 1919 Mercury Dimes - he just lists: "micro double date & part dble. LIBERTY"

    Obviously this DDO has nothing to do with LIBERTY, or even the date, but the "part dble" has me wondering.

    Does anyone have any other Spadone versions or earlier "Oddity" type references that MIGHT have some sort of mention of this DDO?
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have some. Let me see if I can find 'em. Most of Spadone's "Micro shift" etc was machine doubling.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I found one from 1963, 3rd ed. Same description-almost certainly machine doubling on a series known for strong machine doubling. I have other editions including one from the '80s-I just have to find 'em.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have some. Let me see if I can find 'em. Most of Spadone's "Micro shift" etc was machine doubling. >>



    Yea, I inquired about Spadone a few years ago, I think the consensus of the replies was most of his work was um... Crap, but... I'm still curious if there was ever any mention of this in some sort of reference, even his.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not everything in Spadone was crap-I sure wish I had paid more attention to the 1916 "doubled date" nickel listed in his reference.

    A good legitimate place to look for any mention would be the "Numismatic Scrapbook" magazine, specifically in the "Circulation Finds" column. Many significant doubled dies were first reported there, including that 1916 nickel. Might be kind of difficult to filter the 1919 dime, tho.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coin World just added a small story to their website - let the wide-spread searching begin!

    http://www.coinworld.com/news/new-doubled-die-obverse-found-on-1919-dime.html
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • bigtonydallasbigtonydallas Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
    This is the VERY reason I search!!!!! Even after 96 years a major variety is found!! I am jealous it was not me but there are probably others. Most not as dramatic as this coin but none the less still out there!!!! I want to find 1 roll of 1958 ddo lincolns though! LOL


    CONGRATS AGAIN!!!!!!!!
    Big Tony from Texas! Cherrypicking fool!!!!!!
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭
    I looked thru all of the '19 Dimes I could find in my collection last night and this morning, probably 40 coins. Nada.
    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I went out looking today-looked at 13 1919 dimes without any luck. As I said before-I think it will turn ot to be quite rare. But I DID find two Mint state 1943 double eye nickels so my efforts weren't totally in vain.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I went out looking today-looked at 13 1919 dimes without any luck. As I said before-I think it will turn ot to be quite rare. But I DID find two Mint state 1943 double eye nickels so my efforts weren't totally in vain. >>



    I'm surprised anyone has 13 of them in one place lol. I need to get my oldest son's whitman album to check, but I'm out of stuff to look at.

    What's funny is on eBay, a few weeks ago, if you're viewing recently listed used to be 1/2/3 etc "views per hour", today it's been 8/9/10 etc. Definitely more folks looking.

    Your eyes look like this?
    image
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mine are nice EDS coins with a clearer double eye than that and nice super clear Class I doubling on the lettering.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coin World's full article is now online:

    http://www.coinworld.com/insights/1919-winged-liberty-head-dime-has-doubled-die-obverse.html#

    They put a teaser story out a few days ago, and I saw one person say they found one on Facebook, but the post was removed, not sure if they were kidding, or they got tired of the bombardment of "Sell it to me" posts, but I still don't know of a 3rd piece being discovered yet.

    Hopefully the print article will uncover some more.

    Jeff
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,651 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>According to DeLorey, the dime was “dismissed by one forum member as displaying simple mechanical doubling, and by another as being a counterfeit coin. Nobody acknowledged it as a doubled die error.” >>




    You wound me, sir.






    image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • bigtonydallasbigtonydallas Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
    I just bought a 1919 dime sight unseen on Ebay. Hopefully it will arrive in a few days and I could get lucky!!! LOL I could then see pigs fly too!!!!! LOL
    Big Tony from Texas! Cherrypicking fool!!!!!!
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>According to DeLorey, the dime was “dismissed by one forum member as displaying simple mechanical doubling, and by another as being a counterfeit coin. Nobody acknowledged it as a doubled die error.” >>




    You wound me, sir.


    image


    Sean Reynolds >>




    LOL, poor Sean - Hey, at least you get to share in the 15 minutes of fame 8-)
    Although, for being a fake coin, you sure were quick to scour eBay hehe
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,651 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>According to DeLorey, the dime was “dismissed by one forum member as displaying simple mechanical doubling, and by another as being a counterfeit coin. Nobody acknowledged it as a doubled die error.” >>




    You wound me, sir.


    image


    Sean Reynolds >>




    LOL, poor Sean - Hey, at least you get to share in the 15 minutes of fame 8-)
    Although, for being a fake coin, you sure were quick to scour eBay hehe >>




    To be fair, I did call it a real doubled die, I just said it was on a counterfeit coin. This is why Tom worked for ANACS and gets quoted in Coin World, while I just spout off on the internet. image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • bigtonydallasbigtonydallas Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
    My previous post is not there. So if this a repeat sorry. I just bought a 1919 dime on Ebay sight unseen. Maybe Ill get lucky!!!! lol
    Big Tony from Texas! Cherrypicking fool!!!!!!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another weekend with no reports?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • This content has been removed.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If few or none turn up after that big front page "Coin World" article I think that may tell us something.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,506 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Another weekend with no reports? >>

    I didn't go to a show. image I certainly won't be able to find one if I'm not looking. image
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,651 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Another weekend with no reports? >>



    I had planned to go to a show this morning but my kids gifted me with a nasty cold instead. I have one coin coming from eBay that had a terrible but somewhat interesting photo, I'm not holding out a lot of hope that it's the DDO but it's the closest thing I've seen on eBay so far.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The weather here in Ohio has kept me from really getting out and looking for the coin to the degree I normally would in the Cleveland-Akron-Canton area. I've looked at a total of 15 1919 dimes-certainly not a large enough number to draw any conclusions from but none seem to be turning up anywhere.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are threads on: PCGS, NGC, Coin Talk, and Coin Community - and nobody has reported a #3.

    There have been no comments on Coin World's Facebook nor webpage showing #3 either. Perhaps someone has contacted Mr. Gibbs from Coin World.

    I kind of expected customers would not have much luck this weekend though - with the article hitting, I figured dealers would pull their 1919/Merc offerings behind the table until they could look at them themselves.

    Not sure what the % of Coin World subscribers read or post on the 4 message boards above, so maybe someone has come across one, and just doesn't have a public presence to let us know.

    Any left to be discovered are certainly hiding real well right now.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101

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