I've been out of the loop for about 8 months but it certainly warrants a return to say I wish you the best in getting this example verified. Well done man, looks awesome!!
<< <i>This is an extremely cool find...and those pictures are awesome.....We will all be checking our 1919 Mercs today... will follow this thread closely... Cheers, RickO >>
Don't bother looking on eBay, I checked every active auction going back to January 1 last night.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Sure when you look at photos blown-up the size of a basketball it is hard to miss, but in a cigar box or what not it can easily be missed. The numbers minted could well have been short just as a previous poster mentioned when the obvious error to those minting then were discovered and others were stopped/pulled from production. But jeez these coins are small and add the wear from time and usage and I wouldn't be surprised at all of a new discovery example.
Update: The coin is on the way to Bill Fivaz for further study/pictures. Not sure what happens after that. I've heard from a few experts as well, who have related at least from the pictures, it looks like a promising DDO.
Bill (as well as others here) have asked for the back-story, so I typed this up to him. Had to talk with Scott first to see how much detail he wanted me to release on him, but...
=======
I wish I had a great story to tell as to the origins of the coin, but I don't. Here is info on it and the past owner.
I bought a box of "Oddities" from a friend of mine on January 31st. There are a few hundred coins in there, some other known DDs, lots of die cracks, lots of RPMs, some machine doubling, some true errors, lots of varieties (I still haven't gone through the whole thing), but it's basically my friend's 25+ years of things he set aside as neat box.
I started going through it a few at a time, and got to the Mercury Dimes last Thursday, Feb 5th. I posted that coin and a few others when I found them in a thread on PCGS message board (with others as I was going through that box), and didn't get too many replies on that specific coin.
On Sunday, February 8th, I posted specifically about that coin in a thread on the NGC Message boards. I got a few replies, mostly positive, but it was Tom Deloreys post on Monday February 9th, which jump-started this. He had me post a separate thread on the PCGS message board, take more pictures, and the replies started coming in, and he contacted you.
That is my history with the coin - tucked in a box of oddities marked "1919 - In God We Trust Doubling???" on the 2x2.
Now, since this started, I have kept the previous owner in the loop and have prodded for more information. Unfortunately, he doesn't remember this specific coin at all. He did say he hasn't added any Mercury Dimes to his box in 15 - maybe 20 years. When asked how far back it COULD have been sitting in his box, he said likely 1988 when he was into Mercury Dimes. So it has likely sat dormant in his oddity box for about 27 years. He was also positive if it was in that box, that he had spent less than $1.00 for the coin as well.
As to how it arrived in his box of oddities - he owns a business (not coin related) in a small town, so everyone knows him. Most folks take their coins to him to sell, or trade through his business. He is not sure if he acquired the Mercury Dime from someone in the town, or perhaps in a Whitman album of dimes back in the late 1980's. Although he set aside anything he saw as odd, he is not a variety or error collector at all.
I met Scott through coin club, and have known him for about 10 years. We sit next to each other at the dealer tables at coin club, go to auctions together, and some small shows. He can run circles around me numismatically, but I can run the circles around him technologically - and to some degree errors and varieties. I call Scott a hoarder, because he doesn't have duplicate sets, he has 6-8-12 of everything it seems. Eventually, he had to start selling things to make room, so has been doing small shows for awhile, selling at coin club, or giving me things to sell for him online. We frequently give coins to each other to sell, and make it right afterwards. Not being into errors and varieties, he has been talking about giving me his box of oddities for awhile now, and remembered to bring it when we saw each other a few weeks ago. Originally, I was to see what was in it and give him a fair offer. Since this started with the Mercury, we have come to an amicable agreement to move forward. He is excited for me (and the increased value of his box) but openly admits, it likely would have never come out of that box in his lifetime if he hadn't sold it to me.
Looks very promising to me too. Funny, I started a few weeks ago to start looking at all the Mercs I could find for varieties. Just found one RPM. Also most of the 1919's may have been thrown into the melting pot over the years!
My first feeling is also strike doubling with dirt making it look more like a true double die. This series has some really dramatic strike doubling. No way this would have been not located for so many years. Here is a pic of strike doubling, not as extreme but has a few of the same characteristics.
<< <i>After looking at the coin pics again, I see where it might be strike doubling with dirt making it look like separation. >>
I just don't see it. I think when we all seen a coin like this we all get a certain level of "no way it is real" in our heads but this looks like a ddo to me.
When I first posted this coin in the bigger box of oddity thread, I did say I've seen some crazy Machine Doubling on Mercs (and almost linked to the last few crazy date MD posts on these boards).
I even put in the first post about it that I suspected it was Machine Doubling, although it looked a bit extreme to me.
It is grubby for sure - also being a metal detectorist, I almost did the boiling peroxide trick on it and let it sit in that for awhile to get rid of most of that - as let's face it, validated or not, a VG/F Merc isn't going to have the value in its condition, but decided to just not touch it until we know what exactly it is.
It's off to Bill Fivaz right now, he should get it tomorrow. Hopefully we know more sometime this week.
I suspect at some point, an acetone bath will be in order to further the study, but I'll leave that up to Bill, or whomever he sends it off to next.
<< <i>I'm on the edge of my seat until you post the results. >>
Thank you (and everyone else), I'm on the edge myself.
The coin is off to Bill Fivaz, seems like the opinions have slowed down, some for some against DDO.
So... while I and others wait for the experts opinion, let's play hypothetical for a minute to pass the time.
What is Greysheet bid/ask for rolls of circulated/uncirculated 1919 Mercs right now? I see lots of rolls and small batches on eBay past and present - let's pretend Bill Fivaz assigns it a CPG # or CONECA gives it the designation DDO-001.
What do you think will happen to the prices of "Unsearched" rolls? 8-)
Once news gets out and tons of folks go through their inventories, and they start coming out of the woodwork, where to you think these will fall price-wise compared to some contemporary Doubled Dies?
What do you think the "Top Pop" will be after a year or two - MS64, 65, 66, other?
Again, we're playing hypothetical here for fun if it gets the green light - I've only been around for modern Doubled Dies, never watched a new older date discovery and the aftermath... any predictions.
<< <i>I'm on the edge of my seat until you post the results. >>
Thank you (and everyone else), I'm on the edge myself.
The coin is off to Bill Fivaz, seems like the opinions have slowed down, some for some against DDO.
So... while I and others wait for the experts opinion, let's play hypothetical for a minute to pass the time.
What is Greysheet bid/ask for rolls of circulated/uncirculated 1919 Mercs right now? I see lots of rolls and small batches on eBay past and present - let's pretend Bill Fivaz assigns it a CPG # or CONECA gives it the designation DDO-001.
What do you think will happen to the prices of "Unsearched" rolls? 8-)
Once news gets out and tons of folks go through their inventories, and they start coming out of the woodwork, where to you think these will fall price-wise compared to some contemporary Doubled Dies?
What do you think the "Top Pop" will be after a year or two - MS64, 65, 66, other?
Again, we're playing hypothetical here for fun if it gets the green light - I've only been around for modern Doubled Dies, never watched a new older date discovery and the aftermath... any predictions. >>
I think this is a ddo and if it is I would not expect many more to come out. There are unique doubled dies out there and this an almost 100 years old coin. It is not like many more are suddenly going to come forward.
If that's strike doubling it's unlike any I've seen before and I've seen plenty. The most convincing thing I've seen is the "N" and the dot next to it and the "R."
<< <i>If that's strike doubling it's unlike any I've seen before and I've seen plenty. The most convincing thing I've seen is the "N" and the dot next to it and the "R." >>
Add to those the bottom of the last T in TRUST and the bottom right side of the G in GOD. Unquestionable notching that is the hallmark of a true doubled die.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Yes-the notching is quite evident too. Like many, tho, i can't figure out how this has evaded detection for so many years. It's not just in the realm of variety people, either. Anyone putting a low power glass to the obverse of this coin just to grade it would have noticed the doubling right away.
<< <i>Yes-the notching is quite evident too. Like many, tho, i can't figure out how this has evaded detection for so many years. It's not just in the realm of variety people, either. Anyone putting a low power glass to the obverse of this coin just to grade it would have noticed the doubling right away. >>
True, I'm sure it's been noticed - heck even this one had "1919 - in God we trust doubling???" Written on the 2x2 although it was probably written in the late 80's. Different time back then.
35,740,000 minted for 1919-Philadelphia As has been suggested, how many do you think we're melted? How many survived in ms? It isn't a high value year, with less than 1,000 certified in all grades combined NGC/PCGS I can't tell you the last time I looked at a 1919, perhaps putting my whitmans together as a kid. I suspect there are a ton in 90% silver bags, and not a lot roaming around at shows in cases being looked at over and over.
But... Seeing as my coin grading around fine still is plain as day, I am fairly confident that if this is validated, once word spreads, more will be found. I think we will all be amazed what you can find if you know what to look for that was previously overlooked.
I was into varieties in the late '80s. I think someone would have reported a coin with this wide of a spread to CONE, NECA, or CONECA at some point. Doubled dies weren't the "oddities" they were considered to be in the '60s-70s and earlier by the late '80s.
To add to my posting above-the only reason I can think of that it wasn't reported would be extreme rarity. And, admittedly the late '80s were much different than today but not so different that this doubled die wouldn't have been recognized for what it is.
A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Phew, don't have to keep that secret any more . Like I said, pretty sure once word spreads, and you are looking for a specific thing, more will surface. They have been hiding in plain sight.
I can't wait to see what an uncirculated one of these looks like.
Roger Burdette was kind enough to forward me the 1920 Annual Report showing die usage for 1919.
For Mercury Dimes:
Philadelphia: 521 Obverse dies were used averaging 71,050 pieces struck per die (37,017,050) 343 Reverse dies were used averaging 107,921 pieces struck per die (37,016,903)
Kind of funny as the reported production is 35,740,000 in publications today. (Although the report is Calendar Year 1919, so maybe there was overlap of 1918/1920 dated coins)
So... what does this prove? Well... nothing. Just throwing numbers out there. If only one obverse working die was doubled, and assuming it was used for an average lifespan, AVERAGES say there could have been around 71,000 pieces struck or roughly .002% of production. Curious how those numbers stack up against other Doubled Dies.
We don't know if the die in question had a full average life, if it was pulled from production early if the doubling was discovered while still in use, etc.
It will be interesting as more of these are discovered, and the die state markers start to be unveiled how the experts determine estimated usage based on that, maybe if there were more than one reverse die used and those die states as well, etc. I always found that part of numismatics quite interesting as well.
Just interesting information is all, take what you will from it.
As my stepdaughter says: "Nobody told me there would be math!"
You moved the decimal point too far.
1 in 5 is 20%, or 0.20
1 in 50 is 2.0%, or 0.020
1 in 500 is 0.2%, or 0.0020
But as you say those are only average die lifes. A die can crack on its first strike, or in the case of a doubled die be pulled as soon as the doubling is noticed.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Phew, don't have to keep that secret any more . Like I said, pretty sure once word spreads, and you are looking for a specific thing, more will surface. They have been hiding in plain sight.
I can't wait to see what an uncirculated one of these looks like.
Going to be an exciting week for sure. >>
That is fantastic news, the only part I don't like about it is that I wasn't the one to find it. I mentioned earlier in the thread, the night this post gathered steam I checked every eBay auction I could find for a 1919 dime dating back to January 1. Many of them had lousy pictures, but I did not find anything resembling the OP's coin. News of a second specimen so quickly on the heels of the first is great news for both the discovery coin and for collectors who want to go out and find an example of their own.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Phew, don't have to keep that secret any more . Like I said, pretty sure once word spreads, and you are looking for a specific thing, more will surface. They have been hiding in plain sight.
I can't wait to see what an uncirculated one of these looks like.
Going to be an exciting week for sure. >>
That is fantastic news, the only part I don't like about it is that I wasn't the one to find it. I mentioned earlier in the thread, the night this post gathered steam I checked every eBay auction I could find for a 1919 dime dating back to January 1. Many of them had lousy pictures, but I did not find anything resembling the OP's coin. News of a second specimen so quickly on the heels of the first is great news for both the disco very coin and for collectors who want to go out and find an example of their own.
Sean Reynolds >>
I knew you mentioned you looked at all the eBay auctions - but what surprised me is there are still rolls and groupings of 1919 Mercs with BINs available - I kind of figured someone from the boards would buy every single one of them (I have no stake in any of them FYI).
I think TD said he sent notice out to a dealer network for folks to do inventory checks, and the 2nd example was found as a result.
Very exciting for sure. I've been watching my online tracking of the package to Bill Fivaz that was supposed to be there about 5 minutes ago, but status just changed to:
Updated Delivery Day: Thursday, February 12, 2015 Scheduled Delivery Day: Wednesday, February 11, 2015, 12:00 pm Money Back Guarantee
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
2 THINGS that I have no patience for: 1. My grades not being posted 1 day after the coins are received(even though the current turnaround is 25 business days) 2. UPDATES ON THIS THREAD!!!!
2 THINGS that I have no patience for: 1. My grades not being posted 1 day after the coins are received(even though the current turnaround is 25 business days) 2. UPDATES ON THIS THREAD!!!! >>
Just imagine how I feel! 8-)
I mailed the coin to Bill Fivaz Tuesday overnight, shows delivered yesterday. The 2nd specimen I would assume should get to him today or tomorrow.
I think we're all just waiting for him to examine and photograph it/them, ensure they're the same. If Bill deems them as many think they are, then I would think it/they will get sent off to a CONECA rep after for their thing.
Kind of in a wait and see period here. If it all checks out, would be great to get a FS# for it, a CONECA number for it, etc. After that, about all that's left for me that I would like is getting my coin sent to ANACS and somehow labeled as the discovery coin (and probably Fine details since it has some damage on the reverse, and a little on the obv).
Would be cool to have the CONECA DDO-001 - Reported by: me but we still need need a few processes and confirmations to happen.
For those who were in the military, we're in the "Hurry up and wait" mode 8-)
2 THINGS that I have no patience for: 1. My grades not being posted 1 day after the coins are received(even though the current turnaround is 25 business days) 2. UPDATES ON THIS THREAD!!!! >>
Just imagine how I feel! 8-)
I mailed the coin to Bill Fivaz Tuesday overnight, shows delivered yesterday. The 2nd specimen I would assume should get to him today or tomorrow.
I think we're all just waiting for him to examine and photograph it/them, ensure they're the same. If Bill deems them as many think they are, then I would think it/they will get sent off to a CONECA rep after for their thing.
Kind of in a wait and see period here. If it all checks out, would be great to get a FS# for it, a CONECA number for it, etc. After that, about all that's left for me that I would like is getting my coin sent to ANACS and somehow labeled as the discovery coin (and probably Fine details since it has some damage on the reverse, and a little on the obv).
Would be cool to have the CONECA DDO-001 - Reported by: me but we still need need a few processes and confirmations to happen.
For those who were in the military, we're in the "Hurry up and wait" mode 8-) >>
Include copies of any documentation (letters from Fivaz, Wiles) with your ANACS submission. In the 'variety' column on the form, write the new FS and CONECA numbers and 'DISCOVERY SPECIMEN'. It also wouldn't hurt to write 'LABEL AS DISCOVERY SPECIMEN' in big letters in the empty area of the form.- this will all ensure your coin is labeled as such.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Folks - check your 1919-P Mercs, just got official word - After hiding in plain sight for 96 years...
Confirmed 1919-P DDO
Still waiting on official FS/CONECA numbering, but will likely be in the next CPG among other places.
I'm sure there will be official photos (especially when the XF/AU specimen is photographed) and announcements in the coming weeks (My coin will be off for a Coin World glamor shot soon).
Talk about an exciting few days, thanks for sharing the ride with me.
Yep! Bill Fivaz has seen the piece and confirmed it as a DDO!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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<< <i>This is an extremely cool find...and those pictures are awesome.....We will all be checking our 1919 Mercs today... will follow this thread closely... Cheers, RickO >>
Don't bother looking on eBay, I checked every active auction going back to January 1 last night.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Bill (as well as others here) have asked for the back-story, so I typed this up to him. Had to talk with Scott first to see how much detail he wanted me to release on him, but...
=======
I wish I had a great story to tell as to the origins of the coin, but I don't.
Here is info on it and the past owner.
I bought a box of "Oddities" from a friend of mine on January 31st. There are a
few hundred coins in there, some other known DDs, lots of die cracks, lots of
RPMs, some machine doubling, some true errors, lots of varieties (I still
haven't gone through the whole thing), but it's basically my friend's 25+ years
of things he set aside as neat box.
I started going through it a few at a time, and got to the Mercury Dimes last
Thursday, Feb 5th. I posted that coin and a few others when I found them in a
thread on PCGS message board (with others as I was going through that box), and
didn't get too many replies on that specific coin.
On Sunday, February 8th, I posted specifically about that coin in a thread on
the NGC Message boards. I got a few replies, mostly positive, but it was Tom
Deloreys post on Monday February 9th, which jump-started this. He had me post a
separate thread on the PCGS message board, take more pictures, and the replies
started coming in, and he contacted you.
That is my history with the coin - tucked in a box of oddities marked "1919 - In
God We Trust Doubling???" on the 2x2.
Now, since this started, I have kept the previous owner in the loop and have
prodded for more information. Unfortunately, he doesn't remember this specific
coin at all. He did say he hasn't added any Mercury Dimes to his box in 15 -
maybe 20 years. When asked how far back it COULD have been sitting in his box,
he said likely 1988 when he was into Mercury Dimes. So it has likely sat
dormant in his oddity box for about 27 years. He was also positive if it was in
that box, that he had spent less than $1.00 for the coin as well.
As to how it arrived in his box of oddities - he owns a business (not coin
related) in a small town, so everyone knows him. Most folks take their coins to
him to sell, or trade through his business. He is not sure if he acquired the
Mercury Dime from someone in the town, or perhaps in a Whitman album of dimes
back in the late 1980's. Although he set aside anything he saw as odd, he is
not a variety or error collector at all.
I met Scott through coin club, and have known him for about 10 years. We sit
next to each other at the dealer tables at coin club, go to auctions together,
and some small shows. He can run circles around me numismatically, but I can
run the circles around him technologically - and to some degree errors and
varieties. I call Scott a hoarder, because he doesn't have duplicate sets, he
has 6-8-12 of everything it seems. Eventually, he had to start selling things
to make room, so has been doing small shows for awhile, selling at coin club, or
giving me things to sell for him online. We frequently give coins to each other
to sell, and make it right afterwards. Not being into errors and varieties, he
has been talking about giving me his box of oddities for awhile now, and
remembered to bring it when we saw each other a few weeks ago. Originally, I
was to see what was in it and give him a fair offer. Since this started with
the Mercury, we have come to an amicable agreement to move forward. He is
excited for me (and the increased value of his box) but openly admits, it likely
would have never come out of that box in his lifetime if he hadn't sold it to
me.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
No way this would have been not located for so many years.
Here is a pic of strike doubling, not as extreme but has a few of the same characteristics.
If that is not a doubled die I don't know what is.
Crazy doubling.
I think you have a 5 digit value coin here. I really do.
<< <i>After looking at the coin pics again, I see where it might be strike doubling with dirt making it look like separation. >>
I just don't see it. I think when we all seen a coin like this we all get a certain level of "no way it is real" in our heads but this looks like a ddo to me.
I even put in the first post about it that I suspected it was Machine Doubling, although it looked a bit extreme to me.
It is grubby for sure - also being a metal detectorist, I almost did the boiling peroxide trick on it and let it sit in that for awhile to get rid of most of that - as let's face it, validated or not, a VG/F Merc isn't going to have the value in its condition, but decided to just not touch it until we know what exactly it is.
It's off to Bill Fivaz right now, he should get it tomorrow. Hopefully we know more sometime this week.
I suspect at some point, an acetone bath will be in order to further the study, but I'll leave that up to Bill, or whomever he sends it off to next.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>I'm on the edge of my seat until you post the results. >>
Thank you (and everyone else), I'm on the edge myself.
The coin is off to Bill Fivaz, seems like the opinions have slowed down, some for some against DDO.
So... while I and others wait for the experts opinion, let's play hypothetical for a minute to pass the time.
What is Greysheet bid/ask for rolls of circulated/uncirculated 1919 Mercs right now? I see lots of rolls and small batches on eBay past and present - let's pretend Bill Fivaz assigns it a CPG # or CONECA gives it the designation DDO-001.
What do you think will happen to the prices of "Unsearched" rolls? 8-)
Once news gets out and tons of folks go through their inventories, and they start coming out of the woodwork, where to you think these will fall price-wise compared to some contemporary Doubled Dies?
What do you think the "Top Pop" will be after a year or two - MS64, 65, 66, other?
Again, we're playing hypothetical here for fun if it gets the green light - I've only been around for modern Doubled Dies, never watched a new older date discovery and the aftermath... any predictions.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm on the edge of my seat until you post the results. >>
Thank you (and everyone else), I'm on the edge myself.
The coin is off to Bill Fivaz, seems like the opinions have slowed down, some for some against DDO.
So... while I and others wait for the experts opinion, let's play hypothetical for a minute to pass the time.
What is Greysheet bid/ask for rolls of circulated/uncirculated 1919 Mercs right now? I see lots of rolls and small batches on eBay past and present - let's pretend Bill Fivaz assigns it a CPG # or CONECA gives it the designation DDO-001.
What do you think will happen to the prices of "Unsearched" rolls? 8-)
Once news gets out and tons of folks go through their inventories, and they start coming out of the woodwork, where to you think these will fall price-wise compared to some contemporary Doubled Dies?
What do you think the "Top Pop" will be after a year or two - MS64, 65, 66, other?
Again, we're playing hypothetical here for fun if it gets the green light - I've only been around for modern Doubled Dies, never watched a new older date discovery and the aftermath... any predictions. >>
I think this is a ddo and if it is I would not expect many more to come out. There are unique doubled dies out there and this an almost 100 years old coin. It is not like many more are suddenly going to come forward.
<< <i>If that's strike doubling it's unlike any I've seen before and I've seen plenty. The most convincing thing I've seen is the "N" and the dot next to it and the "R." >>
Add to those the bottom of the last T in TRUST and the bottom right side of the G in GOD. Unquestionable notching that is the hallmark of a true doubled die.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Yes-the notching is quite evident too. Like many, tho, i can't figure out how this has evaded detection for so many years. It's not just in the realm of variety people, either. Anyone putting a low power glass to the obverse of this coin just to grade it would have noticed the doubling right away. >>
True, I'm sure it's been noticed - heck even this one had "1919 - in God we trust doubling???" Written on the 2x2 although it was probably written in the late 80's. Different time back then.
35,740,000 minted for 1919-Philadelphia
As has been suggested, how many do you think we're melted?
How many survived in ms?
It isn't a high value year, with less than 1,000 certified in all grades combined NGC/PCGS
I can't tell you the last time I looked at a 1919, perhaps putting my whitmans together as a kid. I suspect there are a ton in 90% silver bags, and not a lot roaming around at shows in cases being looked at over and over.
But... Seeing as my coin grading around fine still is plain as day, I am fairly confident that if this is validated, once word spreads, more will be found. I think we will all be amazed what you can find if you know what to look for that was previously overlooked.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
TD
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Phew, don't have to keep that secret any more
I can't wait to see what an uncirculated one of these looks like.
Going to be an exciting week for sure.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
This is a great thread. Enjoying every minute of it.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
That is exciting! Can't wait to see it.
<< <i>A second specimen? That's great news! >>
For Mercury Dimes:
Philadelphia:
521 Obverse dies were used averaging 71,050 pieces struck per die (37,017,050)
343 Reverse dies were used averaging 107,921 pieces struck per die (37,016,903)
Kind of funny as the reported production is 35,740,000 in publications today. (Although the report is Calendar Year 1919, so maybe there was overlap of 1918/1920 dated coins)
So... what does this prove? Well... nothing. Just throwing numbers out there. If only one obverse working die was doubled, and assuming it was used for an average lifespan, AVERAGES say there could have been around 71,000 pieces struck or roughly .002% of production. Curious how those numbers stack up against other Doubled Dies.
We don't know if the die in question had a full average life, if it was pulled from production early if the doubling was discovered while still in use, etc.
It will be interesting as more of these are discovered, and the die state markers start to be unveiled how the experts determine estimated usage based on that, maybe if there were more than one reverse die used and those die states as well, etc. I always found that part of numismatics quite interesting as well.
Just interesting information is all, take what you will from it.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>AVERAGES say there could have been around 71,000 pieces struck or roughly .002% of production. >>
It would be .19% of production, or 1 in every 521 coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>AVERAGES say there could have been around 71,000 pieces struck or roughly .002% of production. >>
It would be .19% of production, or 1 in every 521 coins.
Ugh - I got A's in every class in HS/College - EXCEPT math.
I took 71,000 divided it by 35,740,000 and came up with 0.0019865696698377 - so went with .002
Did I do this wrong? 1 in 5 is 20%, 1 in 500 would be .002?
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
You moved the decimal point too far.
1 in 5 is 20%, or 0.20
1 in 50 is 2.0%, or 0.020
1 in 500 is 0.2%, or 0.0020
But as you say those are only average die lifes. A die can crack on its first strike, or in the case of a doubled die be pulled as soon as the doubling is noticed.
<< <i>Did I do this wrong? 1 in 5 is 20%, 1 in 500 would be .002? >>
1 in 5 = 20% (.2)
1 in 50 = 2% (.02)
1 in 500 =.2% (.002)
Somewhere, my 4th grade math teacher is rolling over in his grave - RIP Mr. Lafon - you were right, I'd never get it.
Bill should have the coin in a few hours, and I'm not sure when that 2nd example will get to him, but I'm so hoping for good news this week.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Phew, don't have to keep that secret any more
I can't wait to see what an uncirculated one of these looks like.
Going to be an exciting week for sure. >>
That is fantastic news, the only part I don't like about it is that I wasn't the one to find it. I mentioned earlier in the thread, the night this post gathered steam I checked every eBay auction I could find for a 1919 dime dating back to January 1. Many of them had lousy pictures, but I did not find anything resembling the OP's coin. News of a second specimen so quickly on the heels of the first is great news for both the discovery coin and for collectors who want to go out and find an example of their own.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Phew, don't have to keep that secret any more
I can't wait to see what an uncirculated one of these looks like.
Going to be an exciting week for sure. >>
That is fantastic news, the only part I don't like about it is that I wasn't the one to find it. I mentioned earlier in the thread, the night this post gathered steam I checked every eBay auction I could find for a 1919 dime dating back to January 1. Many of them had lousy pictures, but I did not find anything resembling the OP's coin. News of a second specimen so quickly on the heels of the first is great news for both the disco very coin and for collectors who want to go out and find an example of their own.
Sean Reynolds >>
I knew you mentioned you looked at all the eBay auctions - but what surprised me is there are still rolls and groupings of 1919 Mercs with BINs available - I kind of figured someone from the boards would buy every single one of them (I have no stake in any of them FYI).
I think TD said he sent notice out to a dealer network for folks to do inventory checks, and the 2nd example was found as a result.
Very exciting for sure. I've been watching my online tracking of the package to Bill Fivaz that was supposed to be there about 5 minutes ago, but status just changed to:
Updated Delivery Day: Thursday, February 12, 2015
Scheduled Delivery Day: Wednesday, February 11, 2015, 12:00 pm
Money Back Guarantee
So not sure if he'll get it today or not 8-(
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>Patience........ >>
2 THINGS that I have no patience for:
1. My grades not being posted 1 day after the coins are received(even though the current turnaround is 25 business days)
2. UPDATES ON THIS THREAD!!!!
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
<< <i>A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.
TD >>
Wonderful news.
Now is the time to cherrypick these.
<< <i>
<< <i>Patience........ >>
2 THINGS that I have no patience for:
1. My grades not being posted 1 day after the coins are received(even though the current turnaround is 25 business days)
2. UPDATES ON THIS THREAD!!!! >>
Just imagine how I feel! 8-)
I mailed the coin to Bill Fivaz Tuesday overnight, shows delivered yesterday. The 2nd specimen I would assume should get to him today or tomorrow.
I think we're all just waiting for him to examine and photograph it/them, ensure they're the same. If Bill deems them as many think they are, then I would think it/they will get sent off to a CONECA rep after for their thing.
Kind of in a wait and see period here. If it all checks out, would be great to get a FS# for it, a CONECA number for it, etc. After that, about all that's left for me that I would like is getting my coin sent to ANACS and somehow labeled as the discovery coin (and probably Fine details since it has some damage on the reverse, and a little on the obv).
Would be cool to have the CONECA DDO-001 - Reported by: me but we still need need a few processes and confirmations to happen.
For those who were in the military, we're in the "Hurry up and wait" mode 8-)
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Patience........ >>
2 THINGS that I have no patience for:
1. My grades not being posted 1 day after the coins are received(even though the current turnaround is 25 business days)
2. UPDATES ON THIS THREAD!!!! >>
Just imagine how I feel! 8-)
I mailed the coin to Bill Fivaz Tuesday overnight, shows delivered yesterday. The 2nd specimen I would assume should get to him today or tomorrow.
I think we're all just waiting for him to examine and photograph it/them, ensure they're the same. If Bill deems them as many think they are, then I would think it/they will get sent off to a CONECA rep after for their thing.
Kind of in a wait and see period here. If it all checks out, would be great to get a FS# for it, a CONECA number for it, etc. After that, about all that's left for me that I would like is getting my coin sent to ANACS and somehow labeled as the discovery coin (and probably Fine details since it has some damage on the reverse, and a little on the obv).
Would be cool to have the CONECA DDO-001 - Reported by: me but we still need need a few processes and confirmations to happen.
For those who were in the military, we're in the "Hurry up and wait" mode 8-) >>
Include copies of any documentation (letters from Fivaz, Wiles) with your ANACS submission. In the 'variety' column on the form, write the new FS and CONECA numbers and 'DISCOVERY SPECIMEN'. It also wouldn't hurt to write 'LABEL AS DISCOVERY SPECIMEN' in big letters in the empty area of the form.- this will all ensure your coin is labeled as such.
Confirmed 1919-P DDO
Still waiting on official FS/CONECA numbering, but will likely be in the next CPG among other places.
I'm sure there will be official photos (especially when the XF/AU specimen is photographed) and announcements in the coming weeks (My coin will be off for a Coin World glamor shot soon).
Talk about an exciting few days, thanks for sharing the ride with me.
Jeff
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Can't wait to see pics of the higher grade specimen.