Note to mint customers: For any mint product that is not available for immediate shipment the order page always states "Product will be available for shipping XX/XX/XXXX." You can see this information before you place your order. If you can't wait for delivery by that date then don't order. Most shipments usually ship before that date. Rarely, but on occasion, the mint will push that date back due to logistics problems or unforeseen changes in production schedule.
I didn't place an order so I don't know what the order page first showed as a shipping date. Keep in mind this date will change over time as sales number increases or as production of new coins slows down for whatever reason. Projected ship dates are determined using projected production schedules. Projected production schedules are dependent on many inputs. This is why things change. This particular coin is a microscopic particle of the mint's daily production of US coins.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>While channel surfing last night I flipped to AAN (American Auctions Network), a sort of auction/bin channel that has coins, and seeing the reverse buffalo full screen stopped me in my tracks. They were offering raw ones for $1,999.97. The guy said you can get them graded your self for $50. (semi quote here as I didn't write what he said down) "If you get a 70 you will make $300 instantly. If you get a 69 you'll break even. Or make $100." He didn't explain the procedure for getting it graded...whether they would do it for you (like I'd trust that method...oh no, yours came back a 69 or 68. Rrrrrright) or you would send it in to your grading service of choice ( they were showing lots of other coins from across the street) Then this part was a little sketchy and it wasn't repeated so I couldn't confirm exactly what he said. I thought I heard him say you could get the ANA labeled one for $2,999. HUH?? What was that you said? He said a little later he would have a couple more on Sunday. ???? He was saying "another one out the door....and another..." I watched a little while longer but no more buffalos came by so I could pin down what they were asking for an ANA slabbed 69 or 70. >>
He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go.
<< <i>Note to mint customers: For any mint product that is not available for immediate shipment the order page always states "Product will be available for shipping XX/XX/XXXX.", but the US Mint may deliver this item to other customers before your order, as the US Mint reserves the right to do anything it wants with your order in the best interest of the US Mint You can see this information before you place your order, if we bother to post this information in advance for the benefit of our customers, otherwise, too bad, tough you know whattie, dates of shjipment posted are subject to change as we at the US Mint see fit, depending upon how irate we perceive our customer base to be. If you can't wait for delivery by that date then don't order, since we don't really care about your business, anyway, it's all good, we're killing it. Most shipments usually ship before that date. Rarely, but on occasion, the mint will push that date back due to logistics problems or unforeseen changes in production schedule, but you never know what the US Mint may do to market and ship its products, so buyer beware >>
"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go. ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go. ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week. >>
Suggest you follow this one...should give you an idea.
<< <i>"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go. ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week. >>
Suggest you follow this one...should give you an idea.
Neither one has the FS label. I'll wait for the FS Flag labels to show up >>
BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?
<< <i>I just got off the phone with the Mint and was told that the coins at the ANA show were shipped from West Point. I ask her if they had any at PBGS and she said they haven't gotten any yet. She said when they do get them they have to box them up and then the shipping will begin.
I filled out the Mint survey today while checking an order....I'll probably be banned and never get that order...
Agent Jim, I'm with you on the OGP. >>
Those CSR on the 800# are contractors and have no idea what even goes on in their shipping Dept.
"BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?"
CCC2010 - I am in the midst of writing an article on this ANA Chicago Buffalo and I am trying to verify the 2500 mintage figure. Do you know for a fact it was, indeed, 2500 coins? Also, do we know that "most went to NGC" for a fact? I have a rough estimate on how many PCGS coins might be out there but nothing definitive obviously at this point .
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?"
CCC2010 - I am in the midst of writing an article on this ANA Chicago Buffalo and I am trying to verify the 2500 mintage figure. Do you know for a fact it was, indeed, 2500 coins? Also, do we know that "most went to NGC" for a fact? I have a rough estimate on how many PCGS coins might be out there but nothing definitive obviously at this point .
Wondercoin >>
Unfortunately nothing definitive Wondercoin with regards to the total and as to how much went to NGC and to PCGS. Just from what i have read and based on sellers claims.
<< <i>"BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?"
CCC2010 - I am in the midst of writing an article on this ANA Chicago Buffalo and I am trying to verify the 2500 mintage figure. Do you know for a fact it was, indeed, 2500 coins? Also, do we know that "most went to NGC" for a fact? I have a rough estimate on how many PCGS coins might be out there but nothing definitive obviously at this point .
Wondercoin >>
The mint employees there will know the number sold.
If you want me to call mint hq sales counter on Monday and confirm, I will.
I think I'm going to fax acting mint dir Peterson, too.
They essentially sold to many flippers and dealers on an item where the sales practices were meant to deal with them not being being unduly influenced by dealers and flippers. And to top it off, here they are telling the online customers to wait while the flip frenzy was fed in Rosemont THEN Peterson says "great idea! Time a hot product release with ANA!" he needs to hear of the unintended consequences.
<< <i>"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go. ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week. >>
Suggest you follow this one...should give you an idea.
Neither one has the FS label. I'll wait for the FS Flag labels to show up >>
BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price? >>
Correct. There are no First Strike Labels for these coins, until the Mint starts shipping. Therefore you need to consider the ANA label as a Pre-First Strike coin, which would be more valuable with only 2,000 of them released.
"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
took a look at the links on the previous page, i guess it's pretty cool. Those ones are not First Strike . Two First strike slabs, one with the ANA and one without, I'd take the one with ANA on it. Hundred bucks more, sure, $1000 more, not for me.
I guess it's just because the 'story' behind these, is that there really isn't one. The Mint decided, long in advance to sell these at the coin show. Kind of boring.
You know what should of had a special label, was those APMEX 5 oz bullion coins. Now that was an early release that 'should not of happened'.
But instead of a special label, PCGS just said they will ALL be First strike....even if you send them in today.
How funny, guess PCGS couldn't give something to the little guy that the big dealers weren't getting.
If I were to buy one from someone who has them in hand now and send it to PCGS in the next couple days, would I be able to get the ANA Label or did you have to submit them from the show?
<< <i>"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
I think the logic that the ANA coin and the First Strike coin should be worth the same is sound. That was my point. However, I also recognize that the market will likely not price them the same. In the end, the market always has the right answer.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I have plenty of specially-labeled coins that may not be worth as much on the aftermarket as what various pieces of paper may indicate.
Paying for a special label that has no certifiable connection to the die state is the same as paying for a souvenir - it means something to some people who might have been to the event, and when you get ready to sell it it becomes highly negotiable. It's basic marketing, and it pays - mainly for the marketers. My opinion.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
I think the logic that the ANA coin and the First Strike coin should be worth the same is sound. That was my point. However, I also recognize that the market will likely not price them the same. In the end, the market always has the right answer.
John >>
Well they released somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 at the show. If even 50% were submitted, and 50% would grade a 70 that would leave 500-750 between the 2 grading companies with this label. Now compare this to the 30,000 that were ordered to date. Those can potentially all be First Strike eligible.
The mint is succeeding in it's plan to to make the first strike designation worthless. First it showed a shipping date in September. Then it issued 2,000 coins at the ANA giving the impression they would be early releases for several weeks to build interest & premium. After they were sold it then changed the shipping date back to next week making the show coins only a week early.
The First Strike / Early Release designation has now become an undefined date subject to the manipulation of the US Mint. It is no longer even a constant designation but one that can be changed at any time and easily manipulated to create an excuse to charge more or sell more.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
For anyone who thinks the PCGS First Strike coins should or will sell for roughly the same price as the ANA Chicago coins, please check out the article Justin and I have written on these Reverse Proof Buffalos that should be posted on my website later tonight.
I agree with John that, in the end, the market will set the price for both products. Our article should at least give those readers who were not in Chicago this past week and did not hear of the specifics surrounding the offering of the Chicago ANA coins a flavor for what took place with those coins.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
These moves are all manipulative. The sure signs that the mints marketing is being taken over by bean counters who have no qualm at manipulation and weasel behavior. The collectors interests are being left out of the equation for the profits. And I'm not against profits by a long shot. If the mint would have taken orders rather than having actual product then there wouldn't have been any controversy. The mint shouldn't have offered any product for immediate possession that has not shipped and is listed as back ordered on the mints own sight. This could be construed as a lie. Bean counters! Shameful behavior.
<< <i>These moves are all manipulative. The sure signs that the mints marketing is being taken over by bean counters who have no qualm at manipulation and weasel behavior. The collectors interests are being left out of the equation for the profits. And I'm not against profits by a long shot. If the mint would have taken orders rather than having actual product then there wouldn't have been any controversy. The mint shouldn't have offered any product for immediate possession that has not shipped and is listed as back ordered on the mints own sight. This could be construed as a lie. Bean counters! Shameful behavior. >>
Maybe they needed an idea of sales before going to all the trouble and expense of making them. Not like they are a regular product issue with a known sales history and a long sales period. Mint probably would rather not have to melt down any more than possible. In the private sector it's known as re-work and it can be cumbersome and costly. In the public sector it's known as a waste of tax dollars. But I agree, they should have at least had yours ready for shipping.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
I don't think anyone doubts that the ANA graded reverse proof buffaloes will be worth more than the Early Release/First strike buffaloes. The question is whether the 60% premium on the ANA labels will expand or contract. Who knows, but for those who know me, I am more of a bullion bull myself. The closer to melt, the more comfortable I feel. That said, I will readily admit I have lost a lot of money by failing to understand the collector mentality.
As for selling some reverse buffaloes sooner than expected, it is quite possible that the mint was hedging their gold position ( I seem to recall the mint losing a lot of money on an unhedged platinum position in 2008) and was therefore realizing losses on their shorts as gold continued to rise. Selling product and moving up ship dates would allow them to lock in profits and cut hedging costs. Of course, I may be giving the mint a little too much credit for their business sense.
<< <i>Hey guys there's a lot of ANA 70's showing up in fleabay. >>
Have you seen this listing??
Check out his description:
You are bidding on one (1) 2013 Reverse Proof Buffalo graded PR70 by PCGS.
These coins were purchased on the first day of release (August 13, 2013). Most important, each come with an autographed COA - PERSONALLY SIGNED AND DATED by the Director of the US Mint, Richard A. Peterson, who was present at the ANA show for the initial release of these incredible coins.
The US Mint only released 1000 coins on August 13, 2013 and we estimate that 500 coins were submitted to NGC and 300 coins were taken home by collectors, leaving only 200 coins to go to PCGS. Out of that not all are PR70. We also estimate that the Director of the US Mint signed about 300-400 cards, making this combination the rarest combination possible with the newly issued Reverse Proof Buffalo.
These coins have the SPECIAL PCGS ANA label, which was ONLY PRODUCED FOR THE FEW COINS submitted for grading at the ANA show in Chicago. And, these coins are also eligible for First Strike grading label once the US Mint begins shipping coins to the general public. If you desire to have the label changed in the future you can do so (at your own cost), but from a rarity standpoint, the ANA Show on the label is what makes these coins extremely scarce.
These coins are in hand and will ship ASAP once paid for.
You are bidding on one perfect coin which will include the graded coin, original issue box and COA as shown.
How does JMS coins know the TPG mix? Are these ANA coin Buff RP owners going to break out their coins for a First Strike label?
<< <i>Hey guys there's a lot of ANA 70's showing up in fleabay. >>
Have you seen this listing??
Check out his description:
You are bidding on one (1) 2013 Reverse Proof Buffalo graded PR70 by PCGS.
These coins were purchased on the first day of release (August 13, 2013). Most important, each come with an autographed COA - PERSONALLY SIGNED AND DATED by the Director of the US Mint, Richard A. Peterson, who was present at the ANA show for the initial release of these incredible coins.
The US Mint only released 1000 coins on August 13, 2013 and we estimate that 500 coins were submitted to NGC and 300 coins were taken home by collectors, leaving only 200 coins to go to PCGS. Out of that not all are PR70. We also estimate that the Director of the US Mint signed about 300-400 cards, making this combination the rarest combination possible with the newly issued Reverse Proof Buffalo.
These coins have the SPECIAL PCGS ANA label, which was ONLY PRODUCED FOR THE FEW COINS submitted for grading at the ANA show in Chicago. And, these coins are also eligible for First Strike grading label once the US Mint begins shipping coins to the general public. If you desire to have the label changed in the future you can do so (at your own cost), but from a rarity standpoint, the ANA Show on the label is what makes these coins extremely scarce.
These coins are in hand and will ship ASAP once paid for.
You are bidding on one perfect coin which will include the graded coin, original issue box and COA as shown.
How does JMS coins know the TPG mix? Are these ANA coin Buff RP owners going to break out their coins for a First Strike label?
People around the room get a feel for how it is going. They can find out where a couple big submitters are sending theirs and start to here the grade through percents.
<< <i>For anyone who thinks the PCGS First Strike coins should or will sell for roughly the same price as the ANA Chicago coins, please check out the article Justin and I have written on these Reverse Proof Buffalos that should be posted on my website later tonight.
I agree with John that, in the end, the market will set the price for both products. Our article should at least give those readers who were not in Chicago this past week and did not hear of the specifics surrounding the offering of the Chicago ANA coins a flavor for what took place with those coins.
Wondercoin >>
Will you post when the article is up? Been looking for it on Wondercoin.com...last time at 10pm edt
For you guys that already saw this coin in hand. How would you describe it? I read somewhere and they said the reverse proof buffalo looks Stunning in hand and they would buy it in a heart beat. What say you about their description....Accurate or not ?
<< <i>Sales Open Today for 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin
WASHINGTON -The United States Mint will begin sales at noon today for the 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin (product code BV1). The coin is being minted in honor of the 100th anniversary of the original design appearing on the Type I Buffalo nickel. Orders will be accepted for a four-week period that ends September 5 at 5 p.m. (ET). There is no household order limit, and the bureau will determine the number of coins produced based on customer demand. >>
It seems to me that the US Mint gave us the impression that Coins produced would be limited to those orders placed during a 4 week period beginning 8-8-13 and ending 9-5-13. Now the Mint has added in to that total Coins it has decided to sell at a major Coin Convention.
What additional Coins will the US Mint decide to sell? I say it would only be fair to produce an additional 20,000 Coins for inclusion in a Christmas Offering . And maybe even more for a special "Limited Special Set " . Maybe something that includes a Buffalo Nickel with a 2013 date.
<<Maybe something that includes a Buffalo Nickel with a 2013 date.>>
A 1/4 oz. gold unc. Buffalo, that would be more fitting to commemorate the Buffalo nickel . Still haven't ordered one, should I bother at this point? If gold maintains at the current level they'll be $1740 on Wednesday.
Then came the big day....Friday. My buddy made a prediction that all the dealers and their people would already be in line prior to the public being allowed in. I told him that I didn't think so, but how wrong I was. You see, dealers were allowed in starting at 8, the public wasn't allowed in until 10. So as you could imagine, people were fighting to get in the show as fast as you could. My buddy started to get into an argument with a security guard because people were just pushing you out of the way to get in line. Really there was no line. The gates opened and everyone was off to the races. To our surprise, the line was incredible. Everything he predicted was true. Dealers brought their kids in and lined them up with 8 grand in cash! These freaking kids were running around flashing their money! I couldn't believe it.
We were in line for over 4 hours!!!! So as were standing in line, all these big dealers, Coin Vault, Gold Mart, Modern Coin Mart and others were sending their people to buy up everyone's buffs. My buddy and I still had our one that we kept in our hands and were were offered $175 for it and we sold it thinking that we still had 5 more to buy. Then the prices jumped to $225. We then committed 3 of our 5 to the dealers as these prices were getting good. This would leave us each with two....one for me and one for a fellow CT member who I promised.
Then word started spreading that only 3 were being sold to each person. We freaked out because we were expecting 5 each. But to meet demand they dropped the number per person from 5 to 3. Rumor started spreading after we stood for 2.5 hours in line that they had dropped the limit from 3 to 1, but I spoke with the head person at the mint who confirmed that was just a rumor. So after 4+ hours standing in line, we got our 3 and stood by our commitment to the dealer we spoke with and sold them.
In the end, my buddy and I walked out of there with no buffs in hand. We did make some cash which ended up paying for most of our trip, but I don't have a rev proof buff to stare at. The only thing that sucks was that I canceled my order from the mint when they were $1740 and now have to pay $1790 to get them again. Oh well. They are selling like crazy on ebay, especially the ones with the special ANA labels. I hope to get one one day, but not for the prices they are asking.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
current Coin World report on the ANA buffalo buying frenzy is out. Two items that caught my attention: (1) dealers, who were already inside before the doors opened and before mint sales began, were able to be at the front of the line. (2) Silvertowne is quoted as saying they were able to aquire about 400 of the first 1000 and MCM around 100. Note that many of these purchases came by paying a premium to individuals who bought directly at the mint table.
An industrious dealer near the mint location would have made out well on commissions using his table as a thrid party go between for the indivdual resellers and the dealer buyers - a central point of deal making.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
Then word started spreading that only 3 were being sold to each person. We freaked out because we were expecting 5 each. But to meet demand they dropped the number per person from 5 to 3. Rumor started spreading after we stood for 2.5 hours in line that they had dropped the limit from 3 to 1, but I spoke with the head person at the mint who confirmed that was just a rumor. So after 4+ hours standing in line, we got our 3 and stood by our commitment to the dealer we spoke with and sold them. >>
In retrospect, it would have been wise to make the offer to sell 3 contingent upon getting 5. That way one has an out when things don't work out.
Without going into detail, the guesstimate of sales is 2000 but I have a call into the FOIA office to get the official number.
(I have reason to believe the issue is the sales people sell and don't order and I'm not having them put their necks on the line to ask the right person, so I called the FOIA office.)
Comments
I didn't place an order so I don't know what the order page first showed as a shipping date. Keep in mind this date will change over time as sales number increases or as production of new coins slows down for whatever reason. Projected ship dates are determined using projected production schedules. Projected production schedules are dependent on many inputs. This is why things change. This particular coin is a microscopic particle of the mint's daily production of US coins.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>While channel surfing last night I flipped to AAN (American Auctions Network), a sort of auction/bin channel that has coins, and seeing the reverse buffalo full screen stopped me in my tracks. They were offering raw ones for $1,999.97. The guy said you can get them graded your self for $50. (semi quote here as I didn't write what he said down) "If you get a 70 you will make $300 instantly. If you get a 69 you'll break even. Or make $100." He didn't explain the procedure for getting it graded...whether they would do it for you (like I'd trust that method...oh no, yours came back a 69 or 68. Rrrrrright) or you would send it in to your grading service of choice ( they were showing lots of other coins from across the street) Then this part was a little sketchy and it wasn't repeated so I couldn't confirm exactly what he said. I thought I heard him say you could get the ANA labeled one for $2,999. HUH?? What was that you said? He said a little later he would have a couple more on Sunday. ???? He was saying "another one out the door....and another..." I watched a little while longer but no more buffalos came by so I could pin down what they were asking for an ANA slabbed 69 or 70. >>
He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go.
ANA NGC LABEL
1000 unit backordered. Expected to ship on 09/08/2013.
The dates are correct anyways.
<< <i>Note to mint customers: For any mint product that is not available for immediate shipment the order page always states "Product will be available for shipping XX/XX/XXXX.", but the US Mint may deliver this item to other customers before your order, as the US Mint reserves the right to do anything it wants with your order in the best interest of the US Mint You can see this information before you place your order, if we bother to post this information in advance for the benefit of our customers, otherwise, too bad, tough you know whattie, dates of shjipment posted are subject to change as we at the US Mint see fit, depending upon how irate we perceive our customer base to be. If you can't wait for delivery by that date then don't order, since we don't really care about your business, anyway, it's all good, we're killing it. Most shipments usually ship before that date. Rarely, but on occasion, the mint will push that date back due to logistics problems or unforeseen changes in production schedule, but you never know what the US Mint may do to market and ship its products, so buyer beware >>
<< <i>Order Date: 08/08/2013 at 02:16 PM
1000 unit backordered. Expected to ship on 09/08/2013.
The dates are correct anyways. >>
1000 unit??!! Wow!
ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week.
<< <i>"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go.
ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week. >>
Suggest you follow this one...should give you an idea.
ANA PCGS LABEL
or this one...both from a forum member.
ANOTHER PCGS ANA 70
Neither one has the FS label. I'll wait for the FS Flag labels to show up
<< <i>
<< <i>"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go.
ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week. >>
Suggest you follow this one...should give you an idea.
ANA PCGS LABEL
or this one...both from a forum member.
ANOTHER PCGS ANA 70
Neither one has the FS label. I'll wait for the FS Flag labels to show up >>
BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>I just got off the phone with the Mint and was told that the coins at the ANA show were shipped from West Point. I ask her if they had any at PBGS and she said they haven't gotten any yet. She said when they do get them they have to box them up and then the shipping will begin.
I filled out the Mint survey today while checking an order....I'll probably be banned and never get that order...
Agent Jim, I'm with you on the OGP. >>
Those CSR on the 800# are contractors and have no idea what even goes on in their shipping Dept.
They routed through Indy without a doubt.
CCC2010 - I am in the midst of writing an article on this ANA Chicago Buffalo and I am trying to verify the 2500 mintage figure. Do you know for a fact it was, indeed, 2500 coins? Also, do we know that "most went to NGC" for a fact? I have a rough estimate on how many PCGS coins might be out there but nothing definitive obviously at this point .
Wondercoin
<< <i>"BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?"
CCC2010 - I am in the midst of writing an article on this ANA Chicago Buffalo and I am trying to verify the 2500 mintage figure. Do you know for a fact it was, indeed, 2500 coins? Also, do we know that "most went to NGC" for a fact? I have a rough estimate on how many PCGS coins might be out there but nothing definitive obviously at this point .
Wondercoin >>
Unfortunately nothing definitive Wondercoin with regards to the total and as to how much went to NGC and to PCGS. Just from what i have read and based on sellers claims.
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<< <i>"BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price?"
CCC2010 - I am in the midst of writing an article on this ANA Chicago Buffalo and I am trying to verify the 2500 mintage figure. Do you know for a fact it was, indeed, 2500 coins? Also, do we know that "most went to NGC" for a fact? I have a rough estimate on how many PCGS coins might be out there but nothing definitive obviously at this point .
Wondercoin >>
The mint employees there will know the number sold.
If you want me to call mint hq sales counter on Monday and confirm, I will.
I think I'm going to fax acting mint dir Peterson, too.
They essentially sold to many flippers and dealers on an item where the sales practices were meant to deal with them not being being unduly influenced by dealers and flippers. And to top it off, here they are telling the online customers to wait while the flip frenzy was fed in Rosemont THEN Peterson says "great idea! Time a hot product release with ANA!" he needs to hear of the unintended consequences.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"He must have been talking about these...bids up to $2900+ with one day to go.
ANA NGC LABEL"
Can't see the price rising all that much further when the same ebay seller has the coin on their website for $200+ less for an instant purchase.
Wondercoin
edited to add: Market on NGC PR70 ANA coins looks like it is around $2,650 right now. Should be interesting to see where the PCGS coins end up when they start selling next week. >>
Suggest you follow this one...should give you an idea.
ANA PCGS LABEL
or this one...both from a forum member.
ANOTHER PCGS ANA 70
Neither one has the FS label. I'll wait for the FS Flag labels to show up >>
BUT should this not be the more collectible Label since it a PRE-First Strike ANA Label where only 2500 were sold and where most went to NGC and only a few to PCGS thus would or should bring in more than the NGC realized price? >>
Correct. There are no First Strike Labels for these coins, until the Mint starts shipping. Therefore you need to consider the ANA label as a Pre-First Strike coin, which would be more valuable with only 2,000 of them released.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
The ONLY benefit is being first to market with graded coins.
<< <i>I don't think anyone will care or pay a premium for a coin from the show.
The ONLY benefit is being first to market with graded coins. >>
While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
took a look at the links on the previous page, i guess it's pretty cool. Those ones are not First Strike . Two First strike slabs, one with the ANA and one without, I'd take the one with ANA on it. Hundred bucks more, sure, $1000 more, not for me.
I guess it's just because the 'story' behind these, is that there really isn't one. The Mint decided, long in advance to sell these at the coin show. Kind of boring.
You know what should of had a special label, was those APMEX 5 oz bullion coins. Now that was an early release that 'should not of happened'.
But instead of a special label, PCGS just said they will ALL be First strike....even if you send them in today.
How funny, guess PCGS couldn't give something to the little guy that the big dealers weren't getting.
Thx, T
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<< <i>"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
I think the logic that the ANA coin and the First Strike coin should be worth the same is sound. That was my point. However, I also recognize that the market will likely not price them the same. In the end, the market always has the right answer.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Paying for a special label that has no certifiable connection to the die state is the same as paying for a souvenir - it means something to some people who might have been to the event, and when you get ready to sell it it becomes highly negotiable. It's basic marketing, and it pays - mainly for the marketers. My opinion.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If a privy mark was added for the show you got something, a label no way. >>
A privy mark would have brought insane money.
<< <i>
<< <i>"While I disagree, I think your belief is certainly logical."
John: You are being too kind. I can't follow that logic. Collectors are paying BIG premiums for "First Strike" labeled coins all the time. A specially assigned Coin number linked to a limited pre-release (and short supply) of one of the most beautiful modern gold coins the Mint has ever designed is sure to command a premium in the marketplace.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
I think the logic that the ANA coin and the First Strike coin should be worth the same is sound. That was my point. However, I also recognize that the market will likely not price them the same. In the end, the market always has the right answer.
John >>
Well they released somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 at the show. If even 50% were submitted, and 50% would grade a 70 that would leave 500-750 between the 2 grading companies with this label. Now compare this to the 30,000 that were ordered to date. Those can potentially all be First Strike eligible.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
Then it issued 2,000 coins at the ANA giving the impression they would be early releases for several weeks to build interest & premium.
After they were sold it then changed the shipping date back to next week making the show coins only a week early.
The First Strike / Early Release designation has now become an undefined date subject to the manipulation of the US Mint.
It is no longer even a constant designation but one that can be changed at any time and easily manipulated to create an excuse to charge more
or sell more.
But quite often ugliness makes the coin even more valuable!!!
I agree with John that, in the end, the market will set the price for both products. Our article should at least give those readers who were not in Chicago this past week and did not hear of the specifics surrounding the offering of the Chicago ANA coins a flavor for what took place with those coins.
Wondercoin
<< <i>These moves are all manipulative. The sure signs that the mints marketing is being taken over by bean counters who have no qualm at manipulation and weasel behavior. The collectors interests are being left out of the equation for the profits. And I'm not against profits by a long shot. If the mint would have taken orders rather than having actual product then there wouldn't have been any controversy. The mint shouldn't have offered any product for immediate possession that has not shipped and is listed as back ordered on the mints own sight. This could be construed as a lie. Bean counters! Shameful behavior. >>
Maybe they needed an idea of sales before going to all the trouble and expense of making them. Not like they are a regular product issue with a known sales history and a long sales period. Mint probably would rather not have to melt down any more than possible. In the private sector it's known as re-work and it can be cumbersome and costly. In the public sector it's known as a waste of tax dollars. But I agree, they should have at least had yours ready for shipping.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
As for selling some reverse buffaloes sooner than expected, it is quite possible that the mint was hedging their gold position ( I seem to recall the mint losing a lot of money on an unhedged platinum position in 2008) and was therefore realizing losses on their shorts as gold continued to rise. Selling product and moving up ship dates would allow them to lock in profits and cut hedging costs. Of course, I may be giving the mint a little too much credit for their business sense.
<< <i>The price of this RP will get to $1,740 IMHO on Wednesday....anyone disagree?
those banking on gold........ a high next Friday /Monday... a low ....a lower low into October
A chance to buy lower on the bay
<< <i>The price of this RP will get to $1,740 IMHO on Wednesday....anyone disagree/ >>
Looks like it.
Man, I sure hope the quality on these is up to par.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
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<< <i>Hey guys there's a lot of ANA 70's showing up in fleabay.
Have you seen this listing??
Check out his description:
You are bidding on one (1) 2013 Reverse Proof Buffalo graded PR70 by PCGS.
These coins were purchased on the first day of release (August 13, 2013). Most important, each come with an autographed COA - PERSONALLY SIGNED AND DATED by the Director of the US Mint, Richard A. Peterson, who was present at the ANA show for the initial release of these incredible coins.
The US Mint only released 1000 coins on August 13, 2013 and we estimate that 500 coins were submitted to NGC and 300 coins were taken home by collectors, leaving only 200 coins to go to PCGS. Out of that not all are PR70. We also estimate that the Director of the US Mint signed about 300-400 cards, making this combination the rarest combination possible with the newly issued Reverse Proof Buffalo.
These coins have the SPECIAL PCGS ANA label, which was ONLY PRODUCED FOR THE FEW COINS submitted for grading at the
ANA show in Chicago. And, these coins are also eligible for First Strike grading label once the US Mint begins shipping coins to the general public. If you desire to have the label changed in the future you can do so (at your own cost), but from a rarity standpoint, the ANA Show on the label is what makes these coins extremely scarce.
These coins are in hand and will ship ASAP once paid for.
You are bidding on one perfect coin which will include the graded coin, original issue box and COA as shown.
How does JMS coins know the TPG mix? Are these ANA coin Buff RP owners going to break out their coins for a First Strike label?
...............Really??
Link
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey guys there's a lot of ANA 70's showing up in fleabay.
Have you seen this listing??
Check out his description:
You are bidding on one (1) 2013 Reverse Proof Buffalo graded PR70 by PCGS.
These coins were purchased on the first day of release (August 13, 2013). Most important, each come with an autographed COA - PERSONALLY SIGNED AND DATED by the Director of the US Mint, Richard A. Peterson, who was present at the ANA show for the initial release of these incredible coins.
The US Mint only released 1000 coins on August 13, 2013 and we estimate that 500 coins were submitted to NGC and 300 coins were taken home by collectors, leaving only 200 coins to go to PCGS. Out of that not all are PR70. We also estimate that the Director of the US Mint signed about 300-400 cards, making this combination the rarest combination possible with the newly issued Reverse Proof Buffalo.
These coins have the SPECIAL PCGS ANA label, which was ONLY PRODUCED FOR THE FEW COINS submitted for grading at the
ANA show in Chicago. And, these coins are also eligible for First Strike grading label once the US Mint begins shipping coins to the general public. If you desire to have the label changed in the future you can do so (at your own cost), but from a rarity standpoint, the ANA Show on the label is what makes these coins extremely scarce.
These coins are in hand and will ship ASAP once paid for.
You are bidding on one perfect coin which will include the graded coin, original issue box and COA as shown.
How does JMS coins know the TPG mix? Are these ANA coin Buff RP owners going to break out their coins for a First Strike label?
...............Really??
Link >>
People around the room get a feel for how it is going. They can find out where a couple big submitters are sending theirs and start to here the grade through percents.
<< <i>For anyone who thinks the PCGS First Strike coins should or will sell for roughly the same price as the ANA Chicago coins, please check out the article Justin and I have written on these Reverse Proof Buffalos that should be posted on my website later tonight.
I agree with John that, in the end, the market will set the price for both products. Our article should at least give those readers who were not in Chicago this past week and did not hear of the specifics surrounding the offering of the Chicago ANA coins a flavor for what took place with those coins.
Wondercoin >>
Will you post when the article is up? Been looking for it on Wondercoin.com...last time at 10pm edt
I will be happy to. It is just being revised a bit to reflect the most current activities. Will be completed in the next 24 hours.
Wondercoin
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<< <i>Sales Open Today for 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin
WASHINGTON -The United States Mint will begin sales at noon today for the 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin (product code BV1). The coin is being minted in honor of the 100th anniversary of the original design appearing on the Type I Buffalo nickel. Orders will be accepted for a four-week period that ends September 5 at 5 p.m. (ET). There is no household order limit, and the bureau will determine the number of coins produced based on customer demand.
>>
It seems to me that the US Mint gave us the impression that Coins produced would be limited to those orders placed during a 4 week period beginning 8-8-13 and ending 9-5-13. Now the Mint has added in to that total Coins it has decided to sell at a major Coin Convention.
What additional Coins will the US Mint decide to sell? I say it would only be fair to produce an additional 20,000 Coins for inclusion in a Christmas Offering . And maybe even more for a special "Limited Special Set " . Maybe something that includes a Buffalo Nickel with a 2013 date.
Wouldn't that pull in some cash?
Go for it! You Money Grubbing Doggs.
A 1/4 oz. gold unc. Buffalo, that would be more fitting to commemorate the Buffalo nickel . Still haven't ordered one, should I bother at this point? If gold maintains at the current level they'll be $1740 on Wednesday.
Then came the big day....Friday. My buddy made a prediction that all the dealers and their people would already be in line prior to the public being allowed in. I told him that I didn't think so, but how wrong I was. You see, dealers were allowed in starting at 8, the public wasn't allowed in until 10. So as you could imagine, people were fighting to get in the show as fast as you could. My buddy started to get into an argument with a security guard because people were just pushing you out of the way to get in line. Really there was no line. The gates opened and everyone was off to the races. To our surprise, the line was incredible. Everything he predicted was true. Dealers brought their kids in and lined them up with 8 grand in cash! These freaking kids were running around flashing their money! I couldn't believe it.
We were in line for over 4 hours!!!! So as were standing in line, all these big dealers, Coin Vault, Gold Mart, Modern Coin Mart and others were sending their people to buy up everyone's buffs. My buddy and I still had our one that we kept in our hands and were were offered $175 for it and we sold it thinking that we still had 5 more to buy. Then the prices jumped to $225. We then committed 3 of our 5 to the dealers as these prices were getting good. This would leave us each with two....one for me and one for a fellow CT member who I promised.
Then word started spreading that only 3 were being sold to each person. We freaked out because we were expecting 5 each. But to meet demand they dropped the number per person from 5 to 3. Rumor started spreading after we stood for 2.5 hours in line that they had dropped the limit from 3 to 1, but I spoke with the head person at the mint who confirmed that was just a rumor. So after 4+ hours standing in line, we got our 3 and stood by our commitment to the dealer we spoke with and sold them.
In the end, my buddy and I walked out of there with no buffs in hand. We did make some cash which ended up paying for most of our trip, but I don't have a rev proof buff to stare at. The only thing that sucks was that I canceled my order from the mint when they were $1740 and now have to pay $1790 to get them again. Oh well. They are selling like crazy on ebay, especially the ones with the special ANA labels. I hope to get one one day, but not for the prices they are asking.
(1) dealers, who were already inside before the doors opened and before mint sales began, were able to be at the front of the line.
(2) Silvertowne is quoted as saying they were able to aquire about 400 of the first 1000 and MCM around 100. Note that many of these purchases came by paying a premium to individuals who bought directly at the mint table.
An industrious dealer near the mint location would have made out well on commissions using his table as a thrid party go between for the indivdual resellers and the dealer buyers - a central point of deal making.
"The good old days when “JUSTICE” stood for something instead of “JUST US.”" - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>FROM THE COIN TALK FORUM:
Then word started spreading that only 3 were being sold to each person. We freaked out because we were expecting 5 each. But to meet demand they dropped the number per person from 5 to 3. Rumor started spreading after we stood for 2.5 hours in line that they had dropped the limit from 3 to 1, but I spoke with the head person at the mint who confirmed that was just a rumor. So after 4+ hours standing in line, we got our 3 and stood by our commitment to the dealer we spoke with and sold them. >>
In retrospect, it would have been wise to make the offer to sell 3 contingent upon getting 5. That way one has an out when things don't work out.
(I have reason to believe the issue is the sales people sell and don't order and I'm not having them put their necks on the line to ask the right person, so I called the FOIA office.)