This is shaping up to be the worst scandal in collegiate sports history. Strike that. Perhaps the worst sandal ever in a place of higher learning............ It's that awful. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is shaping up to be the worst scandal in collegiate sports history. Strike that. Perhaps the worst sandal ever in a place of higher learning............ It's that awful. MJ >>
However it plays out, I am not going to change my love for Penn State or Penn State football one bit because of one criminal pervert and a couple stupid administrators. And I would be sure most Penn State alums feel the exact same way.
Interesting how Penn State was once a consistent Top 10 football team until this stuff started taking place. Then they fell off the map as far as national football dominance.
The fact is the haters will hate, and the lovers will love, but this is a very sad story indeed.
There are some people here that have to pay a price, but Jopa will ultimately walk away from this unscathed, and he will still go down as a legend among Penn State alum.
"Plausible deniability" - guard it, use it as a shield, and it will set you free.
I am a Penn State fan.
Paterno and anyone involved in the administration when these events were occurring should resign immediately.
A pederast is a pederast and the odds are that everyone knew it or suspected it. There are too many incidents and too many reports of investigations.
Now, are you going to let this man "coach" your student athletes knowing full well that he's buggering kids? Are you going to allow him into your facility after he has retired, dragging ten year olds behind him?
Sandusky was told in 1999 that he would not be Paterno's successor. Gee, I wonder why? He retired soon after.
Sorry, but sometimes "plausible deniability" is for the weak and cowardly who only want to further their own interests and protect those at the top.
I'm not a jealous Penn State hater, Steve. There is no reason to be jealous or hate. They are a middle-of-the-pack Big 10 team in a weak Big 10. We already have 2 middle-of-the-pack Big 10 teams in my state. Since joining, they tend to beat the bad Conference teams and tend to lose to the better teams.
What I wish would happen is that Penn State relieve EVERYONE from the football program who has worked there since 1994. Blow it up. Hire new employees. I do not believe that having Paterno, McQueary, the janitors, parking lot attendants, secretaries, players or anyone else with direct (or indirect) knowledge of children being raped in their building should represent Penn State University.
If, by some wild miracle, they are cleared of any knowledge of the crimes, then accept them back into the football program.
EDIT: My apologies to anyone reading this thread. My initial post was made out of pure anger. It was poorly-worded.
<< <i>"Plausible deniability" - guard it, use it as a shield, and it will set you free.
I am a Penn State fan.
Paterno and anyone involved in the administration when these events were occurring should resign immediately.
A pederast is a pederast and the odds are that everyone knew it or suspected it. There are too many incidents and too many reports of investigations.
Now, are you going to let this man "coach" your student athletes knowing full well that he's buggering kids? Are you going to allow him into your facility after he has retired, dragging ten year olds behind him?
Sandusky was told in 1999 that he would not be Paterno's successor. Gee, I wonder why? He retired soon after.
Sorry, but sometimes "plausible deniability" is for the weak and cowardly who only want to further their own interests and protect those at the top. >>
That's great Keith that you are a Penn State fan...and your overall point is understood...but you should admit during these turbulent political times in our country that you are a government union worker liberal, if I’m remembering correctly from the posts over at CBT, and of course Paterno is well known as a staunch conservative and he has supported and campaigned for a number of Republican candidates both on a national and state level...and in my opinion it would be naive to believe that this factor wasn't influencing your viewpoint regardless of how you may retort. Your side, including the left wing liberal media, would enjoy taking Paterno down and mar his legacy.
Yes, everyone here despises child predators, nobody more than I, but frankly it's your side, the liberals who too often preach rehabilitation and coddling of certain types of hard core criminals - it's my side, conservatives who say lock the prison door and throw away the key. I mention this because after seeing the alleged punk criminal being interviewed as I previously mentioned, it seemed like he had no fear about the outcome of all this. Maybe he figures a liberal PA judge will give him a slap on the wrist and that's all. Besides the criminal charges, it may not have sunk in with him yet, that after this is all over, he will be likely be dead broke from the lawyer fees and probable, in my opinion, winning civil lawsuits against him. And I'm sure the scumbag trial lawyers are lining up right now. licking their greedy left wing chops, to sue the yell out of Penn State.
Yes, everyone is a “genius” after the fact. Those who say Paterno knew or should have known, probably have a axe to grind with conservatives. What about all the many others in the media, or at Penn State, lots of liberals on a college campus and elsewhere who should have known. How about the guy's family members and friends who should have known. What about all the many players and other coaches, as well as teachers and administrators who should have known. To accuse Paterno of plausible deniability is total BS. This alleged criminal pervert basically fooled everybody for a long time or he would have been arrested and convicted many years ago. Paterno is a football coach, not a psychiatrist or personality evaluator.
The bottom line is those who knock Joe Paterno on hearsay or rumor without any concrete facts or evidence, are simply in my viewpoint relishing and getting off on taking down a beloved conservative as well as an esteemed football program, which I noted in another post has a superb record of graduating its players…and the pukes in the liberal media and elsewhere cannot stand that. And if this alleged criminal punk is convicted, these liberals will be first in line afterwards to give him a hug and say that he wasn't really being such a bad guy after all, the liberals will feel sorry for him and say he is being punished too harshly, they’ll want to give him another chance as soon as possible, right Keith?…probably not you, but too many on your side certainly will. Heck, some of those on your side constantly defend the POS convicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal, and so at least some of those on your side will defend this alleged criminal pervert.
But the bottom line is despite the pro-Paterno or anti-Paterno rhetoric, this horrible incident is about protecting and helping the kids…and we shouldn’t forget that.
Paterno's Press Conference today (at 12noon I think) should be very interesting. If he tries to talk about football (and Nebraska) only....he will seal his fate.
If he is in no legal trouble, you would think he would be willing to talk about it. I mean, he's IS all about the kids, right?
<< <i>Unless the evidence and the facts prove otherwise against Joe Paterno, then I'm gonna stand by my comments.
If Joe truly did know about this alleged punk criminal before, and didn't report it, then I would have to come down hard on Paterno. I'm not going to come down hard on him at all for reporting the incident to the university administrators, and not initially directly to the police and here's a further explanation why, in my opinion. Again, I was there for two years, in a fraternity, and what I saw and witnessed during those two years could fill a book and I'm never going to discuss any of that publicly. And this was just little ol' me, one student out of many thousands of students just basically minding my own business. The only "trouble" I ever got in was needing the school doctor to give me some tetracycline because a girl I dated a few times gave me something to remember her by - LOL.
I'm not ignoring the possibility with Joe perhaps he should have reported it directly to the police, but just explaining it, that I have to believe that he must be overwhelmed almost every day with "problems" and "situations" regarding his football players who by their nature, certainly are prone to get into all kinds of trouble. We once had a co-party with the football fraternity at our fraternity house, and frankly it was easy to see that even though we were no angels, they were definitely in a different class of "rambunctious" than we were, especially with the women they attract being the football players. I can only imagine the "stories" about his players that Joe gets on his desk every Monday morning - LOL.
One thing that happens all the time on college campuses is underage high school girls coming to the parties, pretending to be students, and looking for love...and we were all aware of that and we would be very careful. It wasn't hard to ask a few questions when getting to know the girls when meeting them at a party to figure out that they were not students. But when you're very drunk and feeling a bit horny, then an aggressive underage high school girl can probably get almost any college guy she wants.
I don't think I need to futher elaborate about that, then on top of that you've got the illegal drug use, underage drinking, illegal gambling, fights, occasional suicides, etc, etc, etc, all combined when many thousands of young people are placed together in an environment whereby there is much tuition expense involved and pressure to succeed in passing tests and getting a degree...and a number of students get in some sort of trouble from time to time. So...Joe has a choice of spending almost all of his time talking to the police, or giving these incidents to the university administrators, and trusting them to handle it. So I have to imagine that when Joe heard about this, his first inclination was to simply pass the info to the university administrators, and I still say that was the proper course, the right course, and again probably the expected course with school procedure.
Yes, this is different than a kid getting busted for pot or whatever...but again...it was from a coach who was no longer on his staff, and it was probably one of a hundred allegations that Joe hears about all the time. Joe is not there to play detective, and he did report it properly to the university administrators, and you don't see me defending them - these administrators absolutely dropped the ball on this matter and deserve whatever legal punishment they get, as they are paid and it is their job to properly and especially under the law take care of matters such as this.
If after the reading this, the Paterno haters still wish to hate, well then there's nothing I can do about it. But at this point, considering the evidence and the facts, i believe the haters are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to bashing Joe Paterno. >>
That was the right course- initially. But when nothing happened, and this pederast re-appeared on campus, Paterno should have said 'Wait a minute- what happened to that report I filed? Why is this child molestor still being allowed to pump iron in PSUs weight room?" This guy has been slithering around the PSU football program for a full NINE YEARS after he was caught raping a kid in the shower.
<< <i>Unless the evidence and the facts prove otherwise against Joe Paterno, then I'm gonna stand by my comments.
If Joe truly did know about this alleged punk criminal before, and didn't report it, then I would have to come down hard on Paterno. I'm not going to come down hard on him at all for reporting the incident to the university administrators, and not initially directly to the police and here's a further explanation why, in my opinion. Again, I was there for two years, in a fraternity, and what I saw and witnessed during those two years could fill a book and I'm never going to discuss any of that publicly. And this was just little ol' me, one student out of many thousands of students just basically minding my own business. The only "trouble" I ever got in was needing the school doctor to give me some tetracycline because a girl I dated a few times gave me something to remember her by - LOL.
I'm not ignoring the possibility with Joe perhaps he should have reported it directly to the police, but just explaining it, that I have to believe that he must be overwhelmed almost every day with "problems" and "situations" regarding his football players who by their nature, certainly are prone to get into all kinds of trouble. We once had a co-party with the football fraternity at our fraternity house, and frankly it was easy to see that even though we were no angels, they were definitely in a different class of "rambunctious" than we were, especially with the women they attract being the football players. I can only imagine the "stories" about his players that Joe gets on his desk every Monday morning - LOL.
One thing that happens all the time on college campuses is underage high school girls coming to the parties, pretending to be students, and looking for love...and we were all aware of that and we would be very careful. It wasn't hard to ask a few questions when getting to know the girls when meeting them at a party to figure out that they were not students. But when you're very drunk and feeling a bit horny, then an aggressive underage high school girl can probably get almost any college guy she wants.
I don't think I need to futher elaborate about that, then on top of that you've got the illegal drug use, underage drinking, illegal gambling, fights, occasional suicides, etc, etc, etc, all combined when many thousands of young people are placed together in an environment whereby there is much tuition expense involved and pressure to succeed in passing tests and getting a degree...and a number of students get in some sort of trouble from time to time. So...Joe has a choice of spending almost all of his time talking to the police, or giving these incidents to the university administrators, and trusting them to handle it. So I have to imagine that when Joe heard about this, his first inclination was to simply pass the info to the university administrators, and I still say that was the proper course, the right course, and again probably the expected course with school procedure.
Yes, this is different than a kid getting busted for pot or whatever...but again...it was from a coach who was no longer on his staff, and it was probably one of a hundred allegations that Joe hears about all the time. Joe is not there to play detective, and he did report it properly to the university administrators, and you don't see me defending them - these administrators absolutely dropped the ball on this matter and deserve whatever legal punishment they get, as they are paid and it is their job to properly and especially under the law take care of matters such as this.
If after the reading this, the Paterno haters still wish to hate, well then there's nothing I can do about it. But at this point, considering the evidence and the facts, i believe the haters are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to bashing Joe Paterno. >>
That was the right course- initially. But when nothing happened, and this pederast re-appeared on campus, Paterno should have said 'Wait a minute- what happened to that report I filed? Why is this child molestor still being allowed to pump iron in PSUs weight room?" This guy has been slithering around the PSU football program for a full NINE YEARS after he was caught raping a kid in the shower. >>
Guy - As I think I alluded to in my last post and other posts...it was not up to Paterno to oversee and investigate this. If you believe it was, then you are of course entitled to your opinion. Did some university administrators screw this up both morally and legally...I completely agree with that and of course they are being prosecuted for that.
You are probably smarter than most of us here, including me, so you probably could recite the latin word terminology and such behind what you believe is the meaning of Paterno's actions...but considering his reputation and integrity, in layman's terms I find it difficult and impossible to believe that Paterno is culpable of allowing the accused to continue at Penn State if he honestly thought this alleged criminal punk was gulity of the despicable behavior of which he is being charged.
You could call Paterno "naive" or whatever, but the posts insinuating that Paterno would allow someone like this to "slither" around Penn State, frankly, I find that quite ludicrous at this point. However, if the evidence and facts turn out otherwise, then I won't mind at all changing my viewpoint. Joe Paterno, no matter who he is, is not bigger than Penn State and certainly no one is above protecting any child molester for any reason.
<< <i> That was the right course- initially. But when nothing happened, and this pederast re-appeared on campus, Paterno should have said 'Wait a minute- what happened to that report I filed? Why is this child molestor still being allowed to pump iron in PSUs weight room?" This guy has been slithering around the PSU football program for a full NINE YEARS after he was caught raping a kid in the shower. >>
Unless the University president has something on Paterno about a totally different situation, then Joe's at the mercy of the president.
It always struck me as amazing that some guys can't control themselves especially to the point of becoming criminals. Look at Bill Clinton, even though he cavorted with a 24 year old, I think she was, which was of course legal, by openly lying about it he risked his presidency and his marriage just for an occasional hum job? Just crazy, and this alleged criminal punk throwing away his life for what he did, is crazier still. I don't understand it, and I guess i never will.
Steve, i hope you didnt take my post personal, i just remembered the book and made me say "huh". Again sorry if i offended you, just thought it was ironic.
<< <i>I find it difficult and impossible to believe that Paterno is culpable of allowing the accused to continue at Penn State if he honestly thought this alleged criminal punk was gulity of the despicable behavior of which he is being charged. >>
Fact...McQueary told Paterno of Sandusky's behavior in 2002 Fact...Paterno told the Grand Jusy that McQueary was "very upset" over what he has witnessed. Paterno called it "disturbing" and "inappropriate". Fact...Paterno told the Grand Jury the he told Curley/Shultz that Sandusky was seen "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy" Fact...Paterno never followed up with Curley or Shultz after informing them of McQueary's concerns Fact...This was a 3-year Grand Jury investigation that Sandusky and Penn State were aware of Fact...Sandusky was still a regular inside the Penn State football building up until his arrest this past week
Opinion...Paterno and anyone employed within the football building since 1994 should be removed from their jobs immediately pending the outcome of all this. Paterno should be cleaning out his office today.
<<During testimony before the grand jury, Schultz acknowledged that he was aware of a 1998 University Police investigation that also involved allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky and young boys in the football showers, but did not pursue the matter further and did not seek any additional review in light of the new report in 2002.
The grand jury also noted that the 1998 report involving Sandusky and boys in the showers was reviewed by University Police and Child Protective Services, with the blessing of Wendell Courtney, who at the time served as University Counsel and was (and remains) counsel to The Second Mile – though no criminal charges were ever pursued.>>
I also heard today on Mike & Mike that very very early in all of this, a mother came forward, and police detectives listened (behind the scenes) while the mother confronted Sandusky about the incident between Sandusky and her young son. Sandusky admitted the wrong-doing and used phrases like "I want to die" over his shame. Despite having evidence, the case was dropped.
My point is that as far back as the late 90's, law enforcement and protective services were involved and did nothing to prevent it from happening again. To me, this is where everything failed. It essentially enabled Sandusky, and one could perhaps make a case that if law enforcement didn't care at that time, what good would there be in going to them again (either as another victim or as a school administrator or as Joe Paterno). To me, it's not far fetched to believe that even law enforcement chose to look the other way instead of challenge and /or bring down the hallowed institution. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.
Wow Steve you certainly have become increasingly bitter as the days go by.
Yes I work for the U.S. taxpayer, however I have worked for several administrations and actually share many of your views yet choose to keep my opinions close to the vest. I enjoy being my own person, not beholden to one view or set of views. That translates to my work. I serve at the pleasure of the man in charge at the time, do so willingly and without reservation. Guess what? At my level that means that nothing really changes from one administration to the next. Before you mention it, I am not a union member and am not eligible for any of the benefits of union bargaining.
I find it amusing that someone would say I do not hold a football coach in good favor because I may not agree with his politics. That's pretty wacky man. Can't say anyone has ever accused me of that.
Perhaps you're just a bit sensitive because your alma mater is going through some tough times. You'll get over it.
Keep up the rants. Everyone enjoys how you insist on dividing us by your own assumption, then cutting each of us down so expertly. //sarcasm
Politics does not belong in this discussion. The energy for personal attacks should be used to explore the lack of action that allowed a pedophile to continue buggering children while coaching a high level NCAA football team, then allowed him to bring those children to the premises after he retired and rape them on school property.
Many people knew and did nothing. They should all lose their jobs immediately.
Steve, i hope you didnt take my post personal, i just remembered the book and made me say "huh". Again sorry if i offended you, just thought it was ironic. >>
Of course not - actually I think it has been a pretty good lively thread thus far with some good opinions and viewpoints on the subject which being a Penn State grad, is of importance to me.
It's sad because Penn State football was doing quite well this season, and I was looking forward to the big game against Nebraska and a nice bowl bid, and frankly, I will still enjoy the game and the bowl. But it's sad and it's no fun discussing crap like this about my school...however any sadness I feel, pales in comparison to what these innocent children experienced which will haunt them for the rest of their lives - that is the real tragedy here.
<< <i><<During testimony before the grand jury, Schultz acknowledged that he was aware of a 1998 University Police investigation that also involved allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky and young boys in the football showers, but did not pursue the matter further and did not seek any additional review in light of the new report in 2002.
The grand jury also noted that the 1998 report involving Sandusky and boys in the showers was reviewed by University Police and Child Protective Services, with the blessing of Wendell Courtney, who at the time served as University Counsel and was (and remains) counsel to The Second Mile – though no criminal charges were ever pursued.>>
I also heard today on Mike & Mike that very very early in all of this, a mother came forward, and police detectives listened (behind the scenes) while the mother confronted Sandusky about the incident between Sandusky and her young son. Sandusky admitted the wrong-doing and used phrases like "I want to die" over his shame. Despite having evidence, the case was dropped.
My point is that as far back as the late 90's, law enforcement and protective services were involved and did nothing to prevent it from happening again. To me, this is where everything failed. It essentially enabled Sandusky, and one could perhaps make a case that if law enforcement didn't care at that time, what good would there be in going to them again (either as another victim or as a school administrator or as Joe Paterno). To me, it's not far fetched to believe that even law enforcement chose to look the other way instead of challenge and /or bring down the hallowed institution. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. >>
In my opinion, this is the crux of the matter.
Did everyone pretty much do what they were required to do? Yeah, probably.
Did ANYONE go beyond that and do what they morally NEEDED to do? Nope.
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<< <i>Wow Steve you certainly have become increasingly bitter as the days go by.
Yes I work for the U.S. taxpayer, however I have worked for several administrations and actually share many of your views yet choose to keep my opinions close to the vest. I enjoy being my own person, not beholden to one view or set of views. That translates to my work. I serve at the pleasure of the man in charge at the time, do so willingly and without reservation. Guess what? At my level that means that nothing really changes from one administration to the next. Before you mention it, I am not a union member and am not eligible for any of the benefits of union bargaining.
I find it amusing that someone would say I do not hold a football coach in good favor because I may not agree with his politics. That's pretty wacky man. Can't say anyone has ever accused me of that.
Perhaps you're just a bit sensitive because your alma mater is going through some tough times. You'll get over it.
Keep up the rants. Everyone enjoys how you insist on dividing us by your own assumption, then cutting each of us down so expertly. //sarcasm
Politics does not belong in this discussion. The energy for personal attacks should be used to explore the lack of action that allowed a pedophile to continue buggering children while coaching a high level NCAA football team, then allowed him to bring those children to the premises after he retired and rape them on school property.
Many people knew and did nothing. They should all lose their jobs immediately. >>
I'm glad you corrected some of the facts about yourself, and anyway I was intentionally painting a broad brush in my response to your post...and my comments stand about that. I'm not being bitter at all, I already clearly stated that this incident will not one bit change my love for Penn State or Penn State football. But I'm certainly not happy about my school being bashed and defamed because of one alleged pervert and a few stupid administrators. That Keith simply is not fair, it's not even close to being fair, and you are being closed minded about this and I explained what I believe are the political reasons for that, which you imply are not true for you and that's fine...but again, it was a broad brush and I do a lot of reading about politics and might even be considered a political junkie, and I am definitely not wrong about my general premise in the post.
If the mother dropped the matter, and the police dropped the matter, the University should still ask this guy never to come back. They must have realized that a million dollar lawsuit was right around the corner if they kept a guy with this kind of problem. That is the part I can't figure out.
What about Barney Frank? The hero of the far left wing Democrats - continuing with the hypothesis of some here, perhaps all the liberal Democrats in Congress should resign.
U.S. government mind control programs, like MK-Ultra and Monarch, directed against helpless victims--human guinea pigs--have been virtually ignored by the Big Media Cartel. On Feb. 27, 1999, however, U.S. District Court Judge Warren Urbom found former Franklin S&L manager Lawrence E. King guilty of numerous crimes committed against mind control victim Paul A. Bonacci.
King, serving a 15-year sentence for his role in the theft of $40 million from Franklin, an Omaha, Neb., credit union, was ordered by Judge Urbom to pay Bonacci $800,000 in compensatory damages and an additional $200,000 in punitive damages.
This legal judgement against a notorious perpetrator of satanic-ritual child abuse is unprecedented. In the Memorandum of Decision, Judge Urbom wrote, "King continually subjected the plaintiff [Bonacci] to repeated sexual assaults, false imprisonment, infliction of extreme emotional distress, organized and directed satanic rituals, forced the plaintiff to 'scavenge' for children to be a part of the defendant King's sexual abuse and pornography ring, forced the plaintiff to engage in numerous sexual contacts with the defendant King and others and participate in deviate sexual games and masochistic orgies with other minor children.
"He [Bonacci] has suffered burns, broken fingers, beatings of the head and face and other indignities by the wrongful actions of the defendant King," the judge declared. "In addition to the misery of going through the experiences just related over a period of eight years [1980-1988], the plaintiff has suffered the lingering results to the present time. "He [Bonacci] is a victim of multiple personality disorder, involving as many as 14 distinct personalities aside from his primary personality," wrote the judge.
"He has given up a desired military career and received threats on his life. He suffers from sleeplessness, has bad dreams, has difficulty holding a job, is fearful that others are following him, fears getting killed, has depressing flashbacks, and is verbally violent on occasion, all in connection with the multiple personality disorder and caused by the wrongful activities of the defendant King."
Franklin Cover-up Bonacci's lawyer, John DeCamp, has waged a long, lonely and expensive legal campaign in exposing crimes involving an international pedophile-pornography ring.
In 1991, DeCamp filed a 12-count suit in federal court, charging 16 prominent individuals and institutions, including Lawrence E. King, Omaha World Herald Publisher Harold Andersen and the Omaha Police Department with conspiracy to deprive Paul Bonacci of his civil rights. DeCamp's suit detailed slander, false imprisonment, child abuse, assault, battery and infliction of emotional distress suffered by Bonacci.
The complex case also involved high-level politicians, business leaders, judges and police officials with connections to the drug distribution/money laundering operations known as "Iran"-Contra which goes back to then Vice-President George Bush. DeCamp, a former Nebraska State Senator, even wrote a groundbreaking book about the sordid history of the case called The Franklin Cover-Up: Child Abuse, Satanism and Murder in Nebraska.
Monarch Project The horrendous Monarch Project "refers to young people in America who were victims of mind control experiments run either by U.S. government agencies such as the Central Intelligence Agency or military intelligence agencies," writes DeCamp. "The story told by Monarch victims--one of whom was Paul Bonacci--is that they were tortured for the purpose of creating 'multiple personalities' within them," DeCamp continues from his book. "These multiple personalities could then be programmed--as spies, 'drug mules,' prostitutes or assassins."
An article by Anton Chaitkin, quoted in the book, states that "professionals probing the child victims of 'Monarch' say there are clearly two responsible elements at work: the government/military, and cooperating satanic (or more exactly pagan) cults. These are multi-generation groups, whose parents donate their own children--who are proudly called 'bloodline' or simply 'blood' cultists--to be smashed with drugs and electric shock and shaped. Other children are kidnapped and sold into this hell, or are brought in gradually through day care situations.
"Paul Bonacci and other child victims have given evidence in great depth on the central role of Lt. Col. Michael Aquino in this depravity," continues Chaitkin. "Aquino, alleged to have recently retired from an active military role, was long the leader of an Army psychological warfare section which drew on his 'expertise' and personal practices in brainwashing, Satanism, Nazism, homosexual pedophilia and murder." DeCamp's victory in court and the million dollar judgement is a vindication of mind control survivors Paul Bonacci, Alisha Owens and others who were falsely imprisoned to keep them from testifying against their abusers.
Police and FBI Cover-Up According to the sworn testimony of Noreen Gosch, an activist on behalf of "Missing Children," whose own 12-year-old son Johnny, a West Des Moines, Iowa paperboy kidnapped in 1991, was drugged and sold into prostitution and pornography. "There was no law on the books in Iowa or most any other state in the country specifying that the police would have to act sooner than 72 hours-even though we had five witnesses that could describe the car, the man and various details of the kidnapping. So I wrote the first piece of legislation which became the Johnny Gosch Bill.
Gosch also alleges that the FBI were active in quashing a TV expose. "Just prior to the 'America's Most Wanted' story going on the air...within a week or two of airtime, the FBI in Quantico, Virg. contacted 'America's Most Wanted' and told them to kill the story," Gosch continued. They did not want the Johnny Gosch story broadcast," she says. The only reason the story went on is because John Walsh is a personal friend, and he stood up to them, and he said this story goes. This woman does not lie. I've known her for years. We're going with the story. You can fire me afterwards. We're doing the story.
And they did the story. But the FBI tried to kill this story."
When DeCamp, the attorney, asked her if she knew why, she replied, "Well, of course. It would have opened up the biggest scandal in the United States, bigger than the Iran-Contra story. Bigger than President Clinton's infidelities." The Satanic-Military MK-Ultra Mind Control Connection Continuing her sworn testimony, Noreen Gosch spoke about "the MK-Ultra program developed in the 1950s by the CIA. It was used to help spy on other countries during the Cold War because they felt that the other countries were spying on us. It was very successful.
"...Then there was a man by the name of Michael Aquino. He was in the military. He had top Pentagon clearance. He was a Satanist. He's founded the Temple of Set. And he was also a very close friend of Anton LaVey [the late founder of the Church of Satan].
The two of them were very active in ritualistic sexual abuse. And they deferred funding from this government program to use this experimentation upon children where they deliberately split off the personalities of these children into multiples, so that when they're questioned, or put under oath, or questioned under lie detector, that unless the operator knows how to question a multiple personality disorder they turn up with no evidence.
"They use these kids to sexually compromise politicians or anyone else they wish to have control of," Gosch continued. "This sounds so far out and so bizarre. I had trouble accepting it in the beginning myself, until I was presented with the data. We have the proof. In black and white."
DeCamp asked her, "You known that Colonel Aquino was drummed out of the military?" "He was," replied Gosch. "But then there were no charges filed against him that stuck [the San Francisco Presidio child abuse allegations]...I know that Michael Aquino has been in Iowa. I know that Michael Aquino has been to Offutt Air Force Base [described by numerous victims as a center of mind control-ritual abuse]. I know that he had contact with many of these children."
Bonacci's Story One of the most heart-rendering parts of the court transcript is the testimony of Paul A. Bonacci, the mind control victim survivor, on whose behalf DeCamp sued Lawrence E. King. Bonacci testifed that King took him on many trips to Washington, D.C., Kansas City, Chicago, Minnesota and Los Angeles, where he prostituted the kidnapped and drugged youngster to the rich and famous--and depraved.
Bonacci said that "one person I'm not afraid to talk about because Larry King always said him and this guy were on opposite ends of the field because this guy was a Democrat and Larry King was a Republican...And this guy--every time I see him on TV, my wife knows my hatred for him...His name is Barney Frank."
When asked if he "relationships" with him, Bonacci replied, "In Washington, D.C. And also I was sent to a house, I believe it was in Massachusetts in Boston where I believe it was his house because there's pictures on the wall with him and different people and stuff, that he had met I guess, but it was in his basement.
Suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder, currently called Dissassociative Identity Disorder (DID), Bonacci testified that as one of his alters called Wesley, he lured Johnny Gosch into the van when he was kidnapped.
"I went up to him, asked him [Gosch] a question," said Bonacci. "At that point he was close enough to the car where Tony [another kidnapper] had pulled up in the van and they pushed him in the car and they had a rag with chloroform in the bag that they had us stick over his face. And then put it back in the bag after he was out...We drove several miles...we met up with a station wagon and a van several times."
After switching vehicles and changing direction, the kidnapping of Johnny Gosch was over.
More Chilling Memories When the judge asked Paul Bonacci if Lawrence E. King ever sexually abused him, he answered, "Yes, he did on numerous occasions." How many times would you estimate, the judge then asked. "Probably a couple of hundred. Within all of the different personalities. Beginning at the time I was approximately 12 or 13 years old. Up until I was about 17 or 18."
And what was his primary duty, according to directions he received from Mr. King, asked the judge. "It depended on what was needed," replied Bonacci. "Most of the time it was to compromise politicians so he could get whatever he wanted from them...If they wanted to get something passed, through the legislature or whatever, he would put some people that were against it in a compromising position, by using us boys and girls." And how often was he used at these "parties" in Washington? the judge asked.
"Kind of hard to say," replied Bonacci. "Because there were times when there would be four or five in a night. And I hardly knew, I didn't know most of them. But probably a couple of thousand times." New Ramifications Since the judgment in favor of Paul Bonacci contradicts the previous findings of the U.S. Attorney, Nebraska Attorney General, and the entire judicial system regarding the "Franklin Cover-Up,"
DeCamp has issued an open letter challenging the verdicts of the last ten years of court battles regarding this case and its principals. DeCamp wrote, "I believe that the U.S. Attorney has no choice but to either charge the witnesses with perjury having testified under oath in a federal court...or the U.S. Attorney has an obligation to investigate further into the Franklin saga and reopen matters.
"This time there are pictures [tens of thousands of pornographic photos taken by Rusty Nelson], continues DeCamp. "This time Rusty Nelson [King's former porno photographer] exists and testified completely contrary to Chief Wadman's testimony under oath to the legislature. This time Noreen Gosch validated the credibility and story of Paul Bonacci...At a minimum some Federal or State authority has an obligation to reopen the Alisha Owen case."
Alisha Owen, another mind control victim, was sent to prison for 15 years for refusing to recant her testimony against her abusers, namely former Omaha Police Chief Wadman. Despite this victory, the mind control cover-up continues-as long as Alisha Owen and others remain in prison.
And the Monarch Program? As more and more survivors appear and give eyewitness accounts of mind control atrocities, these outrageous human rights abuses-the Secret Holocaust of the 20th Century-will finally become common knowledge.
Im also hearing reports that his son Jon Sandusky, who works for the Browns has taken a leave of absence. Sports radio here in Cleveland are talking/wondering if his son was a victim of his dad also. God i hope not.
Please note that I'm not accusing Barney Frank of anything, although i dislike the guy's politics immensely and disagree with almost everything he says. So...should young pages and interns be allowed to be around Barney Frank? Should children be allowed to be around Barney Frank? Should all liberal Democrats who respect and admire Barney Frank...should they all resign?
This is similar to Sandusky before he was arrested as far as if he hadn't yet been legally accused of anything, What was Joe Paterno supposed to do? And what were the others supposed to do who knew Sandusky and have been around him for years. There are many "nice guys" in sports who bring children to practices and games to give them the experience and enjoyment of sports...and they are not pedophiles...how was anyone supposed to really know about Sandusky's alleged behavior?
Well, I've spoken my peace on the subject. Back to work so I can pay for my cable service to watch my Penn State games.
ok... my 2 cents. Just level set... I am a Penn State Hater..
1) Jopa did what he was legally required to do. 2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did. 3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on... 4) Should JoPa be fired from the Coaching -- No -- he did not try to cover anything up (like Tressel in OSU). He reported the item which was brought to his manner. 5) Should have McQuerry gone to the police if nothing happen (let's face it here, he was old enough to know what to do.) 6) I am hearing "rumors" that some believe this may be linked to the scandal, as that this DA was looking into something about PSU at the time.. Missing DA 7) I think what is coming out is unacceptable, and do not condone anything...
Legally -- JoPa did what he was required to do by Law. Morally -- JoPa didn't follow through.
Should he be fired? No...
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What rock did University president Graham Spanier crawl under? This is a guy who normally panders for attention. MJ
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<< <i>ok... my 2 cents. Just level set... I am a Penn State Hater..
1) Jopa did what he was legally required to do. 2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did. 3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on... 4) Should JoPa be fired from the Coaching -- No -- he did not try to cover anything up (like Tressel in OSU). He reported the item which was brought to his manner. 5) Should have McQuerry gone to the police if nothing happen (let's face it here, he was old enough to know what to do.) 6) I am hearing "rumors" that some believe this may be linked to the scandal, as that this DA was looking into something about PSU at the time.. Missing DA 7) I think what is coming out is unacceptable, and do not condone anything...
Legally -- JoPa did what he was required to do by Law. Morally -- JoPa didn't follow through.
Should he be fired? No... >>
I strongly disagree with that .....
.....the part about the hating Penn State.
I think I already covered my opinion as to why Paterno reported the incident to the university administrators and left it at that. Those university administrators are being criminally prosecuted for their actions or non-actions. I don't think Paterno could possibly anticipate that they could be so derelict in their duties especially to the point of alleged criminal behavior. Perhaps Paterno did follow up to some degree and these administrators told him everything was okay or words to that effect. So what was Paterno supposed to do, especially with a guy who was no longer even working under him as a coach. At this point, I see no fault whatsoever with Joe Paterno, and it seems like the prosecutors agree as well.
I agree he has to go but it should have been Sunday night and not at the end of the season. MJ
edited to add - Matt Millen is still an idiot
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<< <i>Typical SteveK bias. He would be all over the guy if it were a rival program.
Understandable though, considering everything Philadelphia sports-wise that he thought were true...simply is not. >>
Im an OSU fan, even after the bull@^$# that went down with the tatoos and everything else, I still love my Buckeyes, as well as Jim Tressel. Dont hate on Steve for standing up for his alma mater. His BLUE blood runs deep.
1) After Paterno learned of the allegations, did the accused continue to have contact with any kids in any capacity associated with the football program?
2) After Paterno learned of the allegations, did Paterno have any association with the accused in any capacity on campus or in association with the football program?
If the answer is yes to either of these questions, then there is no question that Paterno should be axed, and his reputation forever in the mud.
As for Stevek's bias, when it comes to something like this, and your biased love for a sports team trumps your common sensibility...then he is a bigger fool than everyone already knows he is.
<<<2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did. 3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on...>>>
I'll start with the obligatory "I don't condone anything that went on with Sandusky molesting children". It's obviously a heinous crime that will scar, if not ruin, these kid's lives forever.
Now that that is out of the way, I think points 2 and 3 from SA's post go a long way in determining how much blame JoePa should take. We don't know how many times JoePa followed up with the AD to see what the situation is. Given his 30+ year relationship with Sandusky, I assume the two of them were probably pretty good friends, maybe the best of friends. I would think he didn't just report it once and then forget about it, but if he did, maybe he did just because he didn't want to think about his friend doing those things. And since Sandusky was 3 years removed from his position at Penn State when he learned of the incident, JoePa probably felt that the AD and school president would be more appropriate to handle the situation.
What's he supposed to do, follow up with the AD every week to see how the case against his friend of 30+ years is going??
All conjecture on my part, but I know I'd probably have the same reaction and have a hard time turning against my friend of 30 years, even after hearing second hand about a despicable act like this. In all honesty, I probably would have done exactly what JoePa did (and I bet a lot of those that want to string him up would too, even if they won't admit it).
HUGE mistake on JoePa part cancelling the presser. Even if the University told him it was cancelled, he should have done one on his own - I'm serious. Obviously it's everyone for themselves, trying to save their own butts...I think if JoePa had done a press conference (even on his own) and truthfully answered every question asked of him that it would have gone a long way to saving his reputation, if not his job. When something like this happens, time is of the essence; you need to get out in front of it and TELL THE TRUTH. University officials don't have his best interests in mind, so be proactive!! Do something, say something! *sigh*
Can anyone here honestly say that, if they got wind of such activity taking place under their nose, they would be OK with simply kicking it upstairs and not following up aggressively? I cannot imagine how anyone, in good conscience, could simply pass on something like that and NOT stay on top of it.
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<< <i><<<2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did. 3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on...>>>
I'll start with the obligatory "I don't condone anything that went on with Sandusky molesting children". It's obviously a heinous crime that will scar, if not ruin, these kid's lives forever.
Now that that is out of the way, I think points 2 and 3 from SA's post go a long way in determining how much blame JoePa should take. We don't know how many times JoePa followed up with the AD to see what the situation is. Given his 30+ year relationship with Sandusky, I assume the two of them were probably pretty good friends, maybe the best of friends. I would think he didn't just report it once and then forget about it, but if he did, maybe he did just because he didn't want to think about his friend doing those things. And since Sandusky was 3 years removed from his position at Penn State when he learned of the incident, JoePa probably felt that the AD and school president would be more appropriate to handle the situation.
What's he supposed to do, follow up with the AD every week to see how the case against his friend of 30+ years is going??
All conjecture on my part, but I know I'd probably have the same reaction and have a hard time turning against my friend of 30 years, even after hearing second hand about a despicable act like this. In all honesty, I probably would have done exactly what JoePa did (and I bet a lot of those that want to string him up would too, even if they won't admit it). >>
Excellent post. I agree on all counts. I think the point here isn't that Paterno is a bad guy; the point is that Paterno is a very good man who clearly dropped the ball. I don't know why the tone of this thread swings between lynching Paterno for being a phony and a coward and unwavering, unconditional support for him, when the proper reaction to this scandal and Paterno's involvement in it is clearly somewhere in the middle.
Good people make mistakes; they sometimes take the low road, or the easy way out, when they know better. They try to ignore things that they know they shouldn't be ignoring. Paterno is a great football coach, and by all accounts a great man, but just like the rest of us he is flawed- as this scandal has demonstrated.
Well at least the players didn't trade their signed uniforms for tattoos, because we all know that's completely heinous and the team would have been banned from having a football team all together.
If JoPa's head rolls for this, that would be completely ridiculous, and I would probably stop paying attention to college sports all together. JoPa did what he was supposed to do. Just because he's the biggest name in Penn State, doesn't mean this scandal should cost him his job.
I have not read the entire thread, so I don't know what has already been posted.. but.. The authorities knew about Sandusky's habits in 1998, but did nothing to stop it. The Grad Student who reported the incident to Paterno never reported the incident to authorities, and this incident is still alleged because they still don't have an ID on the kid. Paterno reported the incident to his superiors. Maybe he could/should have done more. Apparently he never heard anything else about the incident from his superiors, so maybe he assumed it had been dealt with or nothing happened. "Pedo State".. really. If Sandusky is a pervert, he should burn in Hell, but Penn State students and alumni shouldn't bear the consequences of this.
<< <i>Well at least the players didn't trade their signed uniforms for tattoos, because we all know that's completely heinous and the team would have been banned from having a football team all together.
If JoPa's head rolls for this, that would be completely ridiculous, and I would probably stop paying attention to college sports all together. JoPa did what he was supposed to do. Just because he's the biggest name in Penn State, doesn't mean this scandal should cost him his job. >>
ok lets look at it this way.
Joe Pa : excuse me Mr A.D., i need to tell you something AD : ok ill look into it ...ho hum,,,,10 years later BOOM
Now anyone with a brain would be on the A.D.'s butt on a daily basis from day 1 trying to find out whats going on with the issues. If im Joe that piece of shyt would not be allowed with 50 miles of my facilty. So yes i think Joe knew about it for a while just looked the other way, maybe because he didnt know what to do.
Comments
This is shaping up to be the worst scandal in collegiate sports history. Strike that. Perhaps the worst sandal ever in a place of higher learning............ It's that awful. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A child was witnessed raped in a shower.
It was covered up to protect Paterno and Pedo State image.
You can be sure I will keep Pedo state and Joe Pedoterno in the public mind so this will be his legacy.
All scumbags at your school.
<< <i>Steve
This is shaping up to be the worst scandal in collegiate sports history. Strike that. Perhaps the worst sandal ever in a place of higher learning............ It's that awful. MJ >>
However it plays out, I am not going to change my love for Penn State or Penn State football one bit because of one criminal pervert and a couple stupid administrators. And I would be sure most Penn State alums feel the exact same way.
A brave Penn State Alumni..not a coward pedo defender.
Then they fell off the map as far as national football dominance.
The fact is the haters will hate, and the lovers will love, but this is a very sad story indeed.
There are some people here that have to pay a price, but Jopa will ultimately walk away from this unscathed, and
he will still go down as a legend among Penn State alum.
"Plausible deniability" - guard it, use it as a shield, and it will set you free.
I am a Penn State fan.
Paterno and anyone involved in the administration when these events were occurring should resign immediately.
A pederast is a pederast and the odds are that everyone knew it or suspected it. There are too many incidents and too many reports of investigations.
Now, are you going to let this man "coach" your student athletes knowing full well that he's buggering kids? Are you going to allow him into your facility after he has retired, dragging ten year olds behind him?
Sandusky was told in 1999 that he would not be Paterno's successor. Gee, I wonder why? He retired soon after.
Sorry, but sometimes "plausible deniability" is for the weak and cowardly who only want to further their own interests and protect those at the top.
What I wish would happen is that Penn State relieve EVERYONE from the football program who has worked there since 1994. Blow it up. Hire new employees. I do not believe that having Paterno, McQueary, the janitors, parking lot attendants, secretaries, players or anyone else with direct (or indirect) knowledge of children being raped in their building should represent Penn State University.
If, by some wild miracle, they are cleared of any knowledge of the crimes, then accept them back into the football program.
EDIT: My apologies to anyone reading this thread. My initial post was made out of pure anger. It was poorly-worded.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/staff/jon-sandusky/ee6a28ba-7a98-4315-b520-bec29cac7d18
<< <i>"Plausible deniability" - guard it, use it as a shield, and it will set you free.
I am a Penn State fan.
Paterno and anyone involved in the administration when these events were occurring should resign immediately.
A pederast is a pederast and the odds are that everyone knew it or suspected it. There are too many incidents and too many reports of investigations.
Now, are you going to let this man "coach" your student athletes knowing full well that he's buggering kids? Are you going to allow him into your facility after he has retired, dragging ten year olds behind him?
Sandusky was told in 1999 that he would not be Paterno's successor. Gee, I wonder why? He retired soon after.
Sorry, but sometimes "plausible deniability" is for the weak and cowardly who only want to further their own interests and protect those at the top. >>
That's great Keith that you are a Penn State fan...and your overall point is understood...but you should admit during these turbulent political times in our country that you are a government union worker liberal, if I’m remembering correctly from the posts over at CBT, and of course Paterno is well known as a staunch conservative and he has supported and campaigned for a number of Republican candidates both on a national and state level...and in my opinion it would be naive to believe that this factor wasn't influencing your viewpoint regardless of how you may retort. Your side, including the left wing liberal media, would enjoy taking Paterno down and mar his legacy.
Yes, everyone here despises child predators, nobody more than I, but frankly it's your side, the liberals who too often preach rehabilitation and coddling of certain types of hard core criminals - it's my side, conservatives who say lock the prison door and throw away the key. I mention this because after seeing the alleged punk criminal being interviewed as I previously mentioned, it seemed like he had no fear about the outcome of all this. Maybe he figures a liberal PA judge will give him a slap on the wrist and that's all. Besides the criminal charges, it may not have sunk in with him yet, that after this is all over, he will be likely be dead broke from the lawyer fees and probable, in my opinion, winning civil lawsuits against him. And I'm sure the scumbag trial lawyers are lining up right now. licking their greedy left wing chops, to sue the yell out of Penn State.
Yes, everyone is a “genius” after the fact. Those who say Paterno knew or should have known, probably have a axe to grind with conservatives. What about all the many others in the media, or at Penn State, lots of liberals on a college campus and elsewhere who should have known. How about the guy's family members and friends who should have known. What about all the many players and other coaches, as well as teachers and administrators who should have known. To accuse Paterno of plausible deniability is total BS. This alleged criminal pervert basically fooled everybody for a long time or he would have been arrested and convicted many years ago. Paterno is a football coach, not a psychiatrist or personality evaluator.
The bottom line is those who knock Joe Paterno on hearsay or rumor without any concrete facts or evidence, are simply in my viewpoint relishing and getting off on taking down a beloved conservative as well as an esteemed football program, which I noted in another post has a superb record of graduating its players…and the pukes in the liberal media and elsewhere cannot stand that. And if this alleged criminal punk is convicted, these liberals will be first in line afterwards to give him a hug and say that he wasn't really being such a bad guy after all, the liberals will feel sorry for him and say he is being punished too harshly, they’ll want to give him another chance as soon as possible, right Keith?…probably not you, but too many on your side certainly will. Heck, some of those on your side constantly defend the POS convicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal, and so at least some of those on your side will defend this alleged criminal pervert.
But the bottom line is despite the pro-Paterno or anti-Paterno rhetoric, this horrible incident is about protecting and helping the kids…and we shouldn’t forget that.
If he is in no legal trouble, you would think he would be willing to talk about it. I mean, he's IS all about the kids, right?
An accused sex offender writing a book called "Touched"
null
<< <i>Unless the evidence and the facts prove otherwise against Joe Paterno, then I'm gonna stand by my comments.
If Joe truly did know about this alleged punk criminal before, and didn't report it, then I would have to come down hard on Paterno. I'm not going to come down hard on him at all for reporting the incident to the university administrators, and not initially directly to the police and here's a further explanation why, in my opinion. Again, I was there for two years, in a fraternity, and what I saw and witnessed during those two years could fill a book and I'm never going to discuss any of that publicly. And this was just little ol' me, one student out of many thousands of students just basically minding my own business. The only "trouble" I ever got in was needing the school doctor to give me some tetracycline because a girl I dated a few times gave me something to remember her by - LOL.
I'm not ignoring the possibility with Joe perhaps he should have reported it directly to the police, but just explaining it, that I have to believe that he must be overwhelmed almost every day with "problems" and "situations" regarding his football players who by their nature, certainly are prone to get into all kinds of trouble. We once had a co-party with the football fraternity at our fraternity house, and frankly it was easy to see that even though we were no angels, they were definitely in a different class of "rambunctious" than we were, especially with the women they attract being the football players. I can only imagine the "stories" about his players that Joe gets on his desk every Monday morning - LOL.
One thing that happens all the time on college campuses is underage high school girls coming to the parties, pretending to be students, and looking for love...and we were all aware of that and we would be very careful. It wasn't hard to ask a few questions when getting to know the girls when meeting them at a party to figure out that they were not students. But when you're very drunk and feeling a bit horny, then an aggressive underage high school girl can probably get almost any college guy she wants.
I don't think I need to futher elaborate about that, then on top of that you've got the illegal drug use, underage drinking, illegal gambling, fights, occasional suicides, etc, etc, etc, all combined when many thousands of young people are placed together in an environment whereby there is much tuition expense involved and pressure to succeed in passing tests and getting a degree...and a number of students get in some sort of trouble from time to time. So...Joe has a choice of spending almost all of his time talking to the police, or giving these incidents to the university administrators, and trusting them to handle it. So I have to imagine that when Joe heard about this, his first inclination was to simply pass the info to the university administrators, and I still say that was the proper course, the right course, and again probably the expected course with school procedure.
Yes, this is different than a kid getting busted for pot or whatever...but again...it was from a coach who was no longer on his staff, and it was probably one of a hundred allegations that Joe hears about all the time. Joe is not there to play detective, and he did report it properly to the university administrators, and you don't see me defending them - these administrators absolutely dropped the ball on this matter and deserve whatever legal punishment they get, as they are paid and it is their job to properly and especially under the law take care of matters such as this.
If after the reading this, the Paterno haters still wish to hate, well then there's nothing I can do about it. But at this point, considering the evidence and the facts, i believe the haters are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to bashing Joe Paterno. >>
That was the right course- initially. But when nothing happened, and this pederast re-appeared on campus, Paterno should have said 'Wait a minute- what happened to that report I filed? Why is this child molestor still being allowed to pump iron in PSUs weight room?" This guy has been slithering around the PSU football program for a full NINE YEARS after he was caught raping a kid in the shower.
<< <i>
<< <i>Unless the evidence and the facts prove otherwise against Joe Paterno, then I'm gonna stand by my comments.
If Joe truly did know about this alleged punk criminal before, and didn't report it, then I would have to come down hard on Paterno. I'm not going to come down hard on him at all for reporting the incident to the university administrators, and not initially directly to the police and here's a further explanation why, in my opinion. Again, I was there for two years, in a fraternity, and what I saw and witnessed during those two years could fill a book and I'm never going to discuss any of that publicly. And this was just little ol' me, one student out of many thousands of students just basically minding my own business. The only "trouble" I ever got in was needing the school doctor to give me some tetracycline because a girl I dated a few times gave me something to remember her by - LOL.
I'm not ignoring the possibility with Joe perhaps he should have reported it directly to the police, but just explaining it, that I have to believe that he must be overwhelmed almost every day with "problems" and "situations" regarding his football players who by their nature, certainly are prone to get into all kinds of trouble. We once had a co-party with the football fraternity at our fraternity house, and frankly it was easy to see that even though we were no angels, they were definitely in a different class of "rambunctious" than we were, especially with the women they attract being the football players. I can only imagine the "stories" about his players that Joe gets on his desk every Monday morning - LOL.
One thing that happens all the time on college campuses is underage high school girls coming to the parties, pretending to be students, and looking for love...and we were all aware of that and we would be very careful. It wasn't hard to ask a few questions when getting to know the girls when meeting them at a party to figure out that they were not students. But when you're very drunk and feeling a bit horny, then an aggressive underage high school girl can probably get almost any college guy she wants.
I don't think I need to futher elaborate about that, then on top of that you've got the illegal drug use, underage drinking, illegal gambling, fights, occasional suicides, etc, etc, etc, all combined when many thousands of young people are placed together in an environment whereby there is much tuition expense involved and pressure to succeed in passing tests and getting a degree...and a number of students get in some sort of trouble from time to time. So...Joe has a choice of spending almost all of his time talking to the police, or giving these incidents to the university administrators, and trusting them to handle it. So I have to imagine that when Joe heard about this, his first inclination was to simply pass the info to the university administrators, and I still say that was the proper course, the right course, and again probably the expected course with school procedure.
Yes, this is different than a kid getting busted for pot or whatever...but again...it was from a coach who was no longer on his staff, and it was probably one of a hundred allegations that Joe hears about all the time. Joe is not there to play detective, and he did report it properly to the university administrators, and you don't see me defending them - these administrators absolutely dropped the ball on this matter and deserve whatever legal punishment they get, as they are paid and it is their job to properly and especially under the law take care of matters such as this.
If after the reading this, the Paterno haters still wish to hate, well then there's nothing I can do about it. But at this point, considering the evidence and the facts, i believe the haters are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to bashing Joe Paterno. >>
That was the right course- initially. But when nothing happened, and this pederast re-appeared on campus, Paterno should have said 'Wait a minute- what happened to that report I filed? Why is this child molestor still being allowed to pump iron in PSUs weight room?" This guy has been slithering around the PSU football program for a full NINE YEARS after he was caught raping a kid in the shower. >>
Guy - As I think I alluded to in my last post and other posts...it was not up to Paterno to oversee and investigate this. If you believe it was, then you are of course entitled to your opinion. Did some university administrators screw this up both morally and legally...I completely agree with that and of course they are being prosecuted for that.
You are probably smarter than most of us here, including me, so you probably could recite the latin word terminology and such behind what you believe is the meaning of Paterno's actions...but considering his reputation and integrity, in layman's terms I find it difficult and impossible to believe that Paterno is culpable of allowing the accused to continue at Penn State if he honestly thought this alleged criminal punk was gulity of the despicable behavior of which he is being charged.
You could call Paterno "naive" or whatever, but the posts insinuating that Paterno would allow someone like this to "slither" around Penn State, frankly, I find that quite ludicrous at this point. However, if the evidence and facts turn out otherwise, then I won't mind at all changing my viewpoint. Joe Paterno, no matter who he is, is not bigger than Penn State and certainly no one is above protecting any child molester for any reason.
<< <i>
That was the right course- initially. But when nothing happened, and this pederast re-appeared on campus, Paterno should have said 'Wait a minute- what happened to that report I filed? Why is this child molestor still being allowed to pump iron in PSUs weight room?" This guy has been slithering around the PSU football program for a full NINE YEARS after he was caught raping a kid in the shower. >>
Unless the University president has something on Paterno about a totally different situation, then Joe's at the mercy of the president.
<< <i>Whats worse than worse?
An accused sex offender writing a book called "Touched"
null >>
Good grief!
It always struck me as amazing that some guys can't control themselves especially to the point of becoming criminals. Look at Bill Clinton, even though he cavorted with a 24 year old, I think she was, which was of course legal, by openly lying about it he risked his presidency and his marriage just for an occasional hum job? Just crazy, and this alleged criminal punk throwing away his life for what he did, is crazier still. I don't understand it, and I guess i never will.
Steve, i hope you didnt take my post personal, i just remembered the book and made me say "huh". Again sorry if i offended you, just thought it was ironic.
<< <i>I find it difficult and impossible to believe that Paterno is culpable of allowing the accused to continue at Penn State if he honestly thought this alleged criminal punk was gulity of the despicable behavior of which he is being charged. >>
Fact...McQueary told Paterno of Sandusky's behavior in 2002
Fact...Paterno told the Grand Jusy that McQueary was "very upset" over what he has witnessed. Paterno called it "disturbing" and "inappropriate".
Fact...Paterno told the Grand Jury the he told Curley/Shultz that Sandusky was seen "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy"
Fact...Paterno never followed up with Curley or Shultz after informing them of McQueary's concerns
Fact...This was a 3-year Grand Jury investigation that Sandusky and Penn State were aware of
Fact...Sandusky was still a regular inside the Penn State football building up until his arrest this past week
Opinion...Paterno and anyone employed within the football building since 1994 should be removed from their jobs immediately pending the outcome of all this. Paterno should be cleaning out his office today.
The grand jury also noted that the 1998 report involving Sandusky and boys in the showers was reviewed by University Police and Child Protective Services, with the blessing of Wendell Courtney, who at the time served as University Counsel and was (and remains) counsel to The Second Mile – though no criminal charges were ever pursued.>>
I also heard today on Mike & Mike that very very early in all of this, a mother came forward, and police detectives listened (behind the scenes) while the mother confronted Sandusky about the incident between Sandusky and her young son. Sandusky admitted the wrong-doing and used phrases like "I want to die" over his shame. Despite having evidence, the case was dropped.
My point is that as far back as the late 90's, law enforcement and protective services were involved and did nothing to prevent it from happening again. To me, this is where everything failed. It essentially enabled Sandusky, and one could perhaps make a case that if law enforcement didn't care at that time, what good would there be in going to them again (either as another victim or as a school administrator or as Joe Paterno). To me, it's not far fetched to believe that even law enforcement chose to look the other way instead of challenge and /or bring down the hallowed institution. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.
Yes I work for the U.S. taxpayer, however I have worked for several administrations and actually share many of your views yet choose to keep my opinions close to the vest. I enjoy being my own person, not beholden to one view or set of views. That translates to my work. I serve at the pleasure of the man in charge at the time, do so willingly and without reservation. Guess what? At my level that means that nothing really changes from one administration to the next. Before you mention it, I am not a union member and am not eligible for any of the benefits of union bargaining.
I find it amusing that someone would say I do not hold a football coach in good favor because I may not agree with his politics. That's pretty wacky man. Can't say anyone has ever accused me of that.
Perhaps you're just a bit sensitive because your alma mater is going through some tough times. You'll get over it.
Keep up the rants. Everyone enjoys how you insist on dividing us by your own assumption, then cutting each of us down so expertly. //sarcasm
Politics does not belong in this discussion. The energy for personal attacks should be used to explore the lack of action that allowed a pedophile to continue buggering children while coaching a high level NCAA football team, then allowed him to bring those children to the premises after he retired and rape them on school property.
Many people knew and did nothing. They should all lose their jobs immediately.
<< <i>^^^^
Steve, i hope you didnt take my post personal, i just remembered the book and made me say "huh". Again sorry if i offended you, just thought it was ironic. >>
Of course not - actually I think it has been a pretty good lively thread thus far with some good opinions and viewpoints on the subject which being a Penn State grad, is of importance to me.
It's sad because Penn State football was doing quite well this season, and I was looking forward to the big game against Nebraska and a nice bowl bid, and frankly, I will still enjoy the game and the bowl. But it's sad and it's no fun discussing crap like this about my school...however any sadness I feel, pales in comparison to what these innocent children experienced which will haunt them for the rest of their lives - that is the real tragedy here.
<< <i><<During testimony before the grand jury, Schultz acknowledged that he was aware of a 1998 University Police investigation that also involved allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky and young boys in the football showers, but did not pursue the matter further and did not seek any additional review in light of the new report in 2002.
The grand jury also noted that the 1998 report involving Sandusky and boys in the showers was reviewed by University Police and Child Protective Services, with the blessing of Wendell Courtney, who at the time served as University Counsel and was (and remains) counsel to The Second Mile – though no criminal charges were ever pursued.>>
I also heard today on Mike & Mike that very very early in all of this, a mother came forward, and police detectives listened (behind the scenes) while the mother confronted Sandusky about the incident between Sandusky and her young son. Sandusky admitted the wrong-doing and used phrases like "I want to die" over his shame. Despite having evidence, the case was dropped.
My point is that as far back as the late 90's, law enforcement and protective services were involved and did nothing to prevent it from happening again. To me, this is where everything failed. It essentially enabled Sandusky, and one could perhaps make a case that if law enforcement didn't care at that time, what good would there be in going to them again (either as another victim or as a school administrator or as Joe Paterno). To me, it's not far fetched to believe that even law enforcement chose to look the other way instead of challenge and /or bring down the hallowed institution. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. >>
In my opinion, this is the crux of the matter.
Did everyone pretty much do what they were required to do? Yeah, probably.
Did ANYONE go beyond that and do what they morally NEEDED to do? Nope.
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<< <i>Wow Steve you certainly have become increasingly bitter as the days go by.
Yes I work for the U.S. taxpayer, however I have worked for several administrations and actually share many of your views yet choose to keep my opinions close to the vest. I enjoy being my own person, not beholden to one view or set of views. That translates to my work. I serve at the pleasure of the man in charge at the time, do so willingly and without reservation. Guess what? At my level that means that nothing really changes from one administration to the next. Before you mention it, I am not a union member and am not eligible for any of the benefits of union bargaining.
I find it amusing that someone would say I do not hold a football coach in good favor because I may not agree with his politics. That's pretty wacky man. Can't say anyone has ever accused me of that.
Perhaps you're just a bit sensitive because your alma mater is going through some tough times. You'll get over it.
Keep up the rants. Everyone enjoys how you insist on dividing us by your own assumption, then cutting each of us down so expertly. //sarcasm
Politics does not belong in this discussion. The energy for personal attacks should be used to explore the lack of action that allowed a pedophile to continue buggering children while coaching a high level NCAA football team, then allowed him to bring those children to the premises after he retired and rape them on school property.
Many people knew and did nothing. They should all lose their jobs immediately. >>
I'm glad you corrected some of the facts about yourself, and anyway I was intentionally painting a broad brush in my response to your post...and my comments stand about that. I'm not being bitter at all, I already clearly stated that this incident will not one bit change my love for Penn State or Penn State football. But I'm certainly not happy about my school being bashed and defamed because of one alleged pervert and a few stupid administrators. That Keith simply is not fair, it's not even close to being fair, and you are being closed minded about this and I explained what I believe are the political reasons for that, which you imply are not true for you and that's fine...but again, it was a broad brush and I do a lot of reading about politics and might even be considered a political junkie, and I am definitely not wrong about my general premise in the post.
They must have realized that a million dollar lawsuit was right around the corner if they kept a guy with this kind of problem.
That is the part I can't figure out.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The Franklin Scandal Tried in Civil Court
U.S. government mind control programs, like MK-Ultra and Monarch, directed against helpless victims--human guinea pigs--have been virtually ignored by the Big Media Cartel. On Feb. 27, 1999, however, U.S. District Court Judge Warren Urbom found former Franklin S&L manager Lawrence E. King guilty of numerous crimes committed against mind control victim Paul A. Bonacci.
King, serving a 15-year sentence for his role in the theft of $40 million from Franklin, an Omaha, Neb., credit union, was ordered by Judge Urbom to pay Bonacci $800,000 in compensatory damages and an additional $200,000 in punitive damages.
This legal judgement against a notorious perpetrator of satanic-ritual child abuse is unprecedented. In the Memorandum of Decision, Judge Urbom wrote, "King continually subjected the plaintiff [Bonacci] to repeated sexual assaults, false imprisonment, infliction of extreme emotional distress, organized and directed satanic rituals, forced the plaintiff to 'scavenge' for children to be a part of the defendant King's sexual abuse and pornography ring, forced the plaintiff to engage in numerous sexual contacts with the defendant King and others and participate in deviate sexual games and masochistic orgies with other minor children.
"He [Bonacci] has suffered burns, broken fingers, beatings of the head and face and other indignities by the wrongful actions of the defendant King," the judge declared. "In addition to the misery of going through the experiences just related over a period of eight years [1980-1988], the plaintiff has suffered the lingering results to the present time. "He [Bonacci] is a victim of multiple personality disorder, involving as many as 14 distinct personalities aside from his primary personality," wrote the judge.
"He has given up a desired military career and received threats on his life. He suffers from sleeplessness, has bad dreams, has difficulty holding a job, is fearful that others are following him, fears getting killed, has depressing flashbacks, and is verbally violent on occasion, all in connection with the multiple personality disorder and caused by the wrongful activities of the defendant King."
Franklin Cover-up
Bonacci's lawyer, John DeCamp, has waged a long, lonely and expensive legal campaign in exposing crimes involving an international pedophile-pornography ring.
In 1991, DeCamp filed a 12-count suit in federal court, charging 16 prominent individuals and institutions, including Lawrence E. King, Omaha World Herald Publisher Harold Andersen and the Omaha Police Department with conspiracy to deprive Paul Bonacci of his civil rights. DeCamp's suit detailed slander, false imprisonment, child abuse, assault, battery and infliction of emotional distress suffered by Bonacci.
The complex case also involved high-level politicians, business leaders, judges and police officials with connections to the drug distribution/money laundering operations known as "Iran"-Contra which goes back to then Vice-President George Bush. DeCamp, a former Nebraska State Senator, even wrote a groundbreaking book about the sordid history of the case called The Franklin Cover-Up: Child Abuse, Satanism and Murder in Nebraska.
Monarch Project
The horrendous Monarch Project "refers to young people in America who were victims of mind control experiments run either by U.S. government agencies such as the Central Intelligence Agency or military intelligence agencies," writes DeCamp. "The story told by Monarch victims--one of whom was Paul Bonacci--is that they were tortured for the purpose of creating 'multiple personalities' within them," DeCamp continues from his book. "These multiple personalities could then be programmed--as spies, 'drug mules,' prostitutes or assassins."
An article by Anton Chaitkin, quoted in the book, states that "professionals probing the child victims of 'Monarch' say there are clearly two responsible elements at work: the government/military, and cooperating satanic (or more exactly pagan) cults. These are multi-generation groups, whose parents donate their own children--who are proudly called 'bloodline' or simply 'blood' cultists--to be smashed with drugs and electric shock and shaped. Other children are kidnapped and sold into this hell, or are brought in gradually through day care situations.
"Paul Bonacci and other child victims have given evidence in great depth on the central role of Lt. Col. Michael Aquino in this depravity," continues Chaitkin. "Aquino, alleged to have recently retired from an active military role, was long the leader of an Army psychological warfare section which drew on his 'expertise' and personal practices in brainwashing, Satanism, Nazism, homosexual pedophilia and murder." DeCamp's victory in court and the million dollar judgement is a vindication of mind control survivors Paul Bonacci, Alisha Owens and others who were falsely imprisoned to keep them from testifying against their abusers.
Police and FBI Cover-Up
According to the sworn testimony of Noreen Gosch, an activist on behalf of "Missing Children," whose own 12-year-old son Johnny, a West Des Moines, Iowa paperboy kidnapped in 1991, was drugged and sold into prostitution and pornography. "There was no law on the books in Iowa or most any other state in the country specifying that the police would have to act sooner than 72 hours-even though we had five witnesses that could describe the car, the man and various details of the kidnapping. So I wrote the first piece of legislation which became the Johnny Gosch Bill.
Gosch also alleges that the FBI were active in quashing a TV expose. "Just prior to the 'America's Most Wanted' story going on the air...within a week or two of airtime, the FBI in Quantico, Virg. contacted 'America's Most Wanted' and told them to kill the story," Gosch continued. They did not want the Johnny Gosch story broadcast," she says. The only reason the story went on is because John Walsh is a personal friend, and he stood up to them, and he said this story goes. This woman does not lie. I've known her for years. We're going with the story. You can fire me afterwards. We're doing the story.
And they did the story. But the FBI tried to kill this story."
When DeCamp, the attorney, asked her if she knew why, she replied, "Well, of course. It would have opened up the biggest scandal in the United States, bigger than the Iran-Contra story. Bigger than President Clinton's infidelities." The Satanic-Military MK-Ultra Mind Control Connection Continuing her sworn testimony, Noreen Gosch spoke about "the MK-Ultra program developed in the 1950s by the CIA. It was used to help spy on other countries during the Cold War because they felt that the other countries were spying on us. It was very successful.
"...Then there was a man by the name of Michael Aquino. He was in the military. He had top Pentagon clearance. He was a Satanist. He's founded the Temple of Set. And he was also a very close friend of Anton LaVey [the late founder of the Church of Satan].
The two of them were very active in ritualistic sexual abuse. And they deferred funding from this government program to use this experimentation upon children where they deliberately split off the personalities of these children into multiples, so that when they're questioned, or put under oath, or questioned under lie detector, that unless the operator knows how to question a multiple personality disorder they turn up with no evidence.
"They use these kids to sexually compromise politicians or anyone else they wish to have control of," Gosch continued. "This sounds so far out and so bizarre. I had trouble accepting it in the beginning myself, until I was presented with the data. We have the proof. In black and white."
DeCamp asked her, "You known that Colonel Aquino was drummed out of the military?" "He was," replied Gosch. "But then there were no charges filed against him that stuck [the San Francisco Presidio child abuse allegations]...I know that Michael Aquino has been in Iowa. I know that Michael Aquino has been to Offutt Air Force Base [described by numerous victims as a center of mind control-ritual abuse]. I know that he had contact with many of these children."
Bonacci's Story
One of the most heart-rendering parts of the court transcript is the testimony of Paul A. Bonacci, the mind control victim survivor, on whose behalf DeCamp sued Lawrence E. King. Bonacci testifed that King took him on many trips to Washington, D.C., Kansas City, Chicago, Minnesota and Los Angeles, where he prostituted the kidnapped and drugged youngster to the rich and famous--and depraved.
Bonacci said that "one person I'm not afraid to talk about because Larry King always said him and this guy were on opposite ends of the field because this guy was a Democrat and Larry King was a Republican...And this guy--every time I see him on TV, my wife knows my hatred for him...His name is Barney Frank."
When asked if he "relationships" with him, Bonacci replied, "In Washington, D.C. And also I was sent to a house, I believe it was in Massachusetts in Boston where I believe it was his house because there's pictures on the wall with him and different people and stuff, that he had met I guess, but it was in his basement.
Suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder, currently called Dissassociative Identity Disorder (DID), Bonacci testified that as one of his alters called Wesley, he lured Johnny Gosch into the van when he was kidnapped.
"I went up to him, asked him [Gosch] a question," said Bonacci. "At that point he was close enough to the car where Tony [another kidnapper] had pulled up in the van and they pushed him in the car and they had a rag with chloroform in the bag that they had us stick over his face. And then put it back in the bag after he was out...We drove several miles...we met up with a station wagon and a van several times."
After switching vehicles and changing direction, the kidnapping of Johnny Gosch was over.
More Chilling Memories
When the judge asked Paul Bonacci if Lawrence E. King ever sexually abused him, he answered, "Yes, he did on numerous occasions." How many times would you estimate, the judge then asked. "Probably a couple of hundred. Within all of the different personalities. Beginning at the time I was approximately 12 or 13 years old. Up until I was about 17 or 18."
And what was his primary duty, according to directions he received from Mr. King, asked the judge. "It depended on what was needed," replied Bonacci. "Most of the time it was to compromise politicians so he could get whatever he wanted from them...If they wanted to get something passed, through the legislature or whatever, he would put some people that were against it in a compromising position, by using us boys and girls." And how often was he used at these "parties" in Washington? the judge asked.
"Kind of hard to say," replied Bonacci. "Because there were times when there would be four or five in a night. And I hardly knew, I didn't know most of them. But probably a couple of thousand times." New Ramifications Since the judgment in favor of Paul Bonacci contradicts the previous findings of the U.S. Attorney, Nebraska Attorney General, and the entire judicial system regarding the "Franklin Cover-Up,"
DeCamp has issued an open letter challenging the verdicts of the last ten years of court battles regarding this case and its principals. DeCamp wrote, "I believe that the U.S. Attorney has no choice but to either charge the witnesses with perjury having testified under oath in a federal court...or the U.S. Attorney has an obligation to investigate further into the Franklin saga and reopen matters.
"This time there are pictures [tens of thousands of pornographic photos taken by Rusty Nelson], continues DeCamp. "This time Rusty Nelson [King's former porno photographer] exists and testified completely contrary to Chief Wadman's testimony under oath to the legislature. This time Noreen Gosch validated the credibility and story of Paul Bonacci...At a minimum some Federal or State authority has an obligation to reopen the Alisha Owen case."
Alisha Owen, another mind control victim, was sent to prison for 15 years for refusing to recant her testimony against her abusers, namely former Omaha Police Chief Wadman. Despite this victory, the mind control cover-up continues-as long as Alisha Owen and others remain in prison.
And the Monarch Program? As more and more survivors appear and give eyewitness accounts of mind control atrocities, these outrageous human rights abuses-the Secret Holocaust of the 20th Century-will finally become common knowledge.
Joe Pa has cancelled his presser.
This is similar to Sandusky before he was arrested as far as if he hadn't yet been legally accused of anything, What was Joe Paterno supposed to do? And what were the others supposed to do who knew Sandusky and have been around him for years. There are many "nice guys" in sports who bring children to practices and games to give them the experience and enjoyment of sports...and they are not pedophiles...how was anyone supposed to really know about Sandusky's alleged behavior?
Well, I've spoken my peace on the subject. Back to work so I can pay for my cable service to watch my Penn State games.
What's up with Mike McQueary? When is this dope going to get kicked to the curb? The world is waiting for Penn State to do the right thing.
Jos Pa also will not be involved in the Big 10 phone confrence either this afternoon.
HES GONE!
Coward Joe Paterno cancels press conference.
What a pathetic program Pedo State is.
Fire them all destroy there legacy and NCAA needs to give them the Death penalty.
<< <i>Sardusky was visiting Penn state last week!
Coward Joe Paterno cancels press conference.
What a pathetic program Pedo State is.
Fire them all destroy there legacy and NCAA needs to give them the Death penalty. >>
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT PLEASE
Joe didnt cancel it, the University called him at home and told him it was cancelled.
1) Jopa did what he was legally required to do.
2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did.
3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on...
4) Should JoPa be fired from the Coaching -- No -- he did not try to cover anything up (like Tressel in OSU). He reported the item which was brought to his manner.
5) Should have McQuerry gone to the police if nothing happen (let's face it here, he was old enough to know what to do.)
6) I am hearing "rumors" that some believe this may be linked to the scandal, as that this DA was looking into something about PSU at the time.. Missing DA
7) I think what is coming out is unacceptable, and do not condone anything...
Legally -- JoPa did what he was required to do by Law.
Morally -- JoPa didn't follow through.
Should he be fired? No...
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<< <i>ok... my 2 cents. Just level set... I am a Penn State Hater..
1) Jopa did what he was legally required to do.
2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did.
3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on...
4) Should JoPa be fired from the Coaching -- No -- he did not try to cover anything up (like Tressel in OSU). He reported the item which was brought to his manner.
5) Should have McQuerry gone to the police if nothing happen (let's face it here, he was old enough to know what to do.)
6) I am hearing "rumors" that some believe this may be linked to the scandal, as that this DA was looking into something about PSU at the time.. Missing DA
7) I think what is coming out is unacceptable, and do not condone anything...
Legally -- JoPa did what he was required to do by Law.
Morally -- JoPa didn't follow through.
Should he be fired? No... >>
I strongly disagree with that
.....the part about the hating Penn State.
I think I already covered my opinion as to why Paterno reported the incident to the university administrators and left it at that. Those university administrators are being criminally prosecuted for their actions or non-actions. I don't think Paterno could possibly anticipate that they could be so derelict in their duties especially to the point of alleged criminal behavior. Perhaps Paterno did follow up to some degree and these administrators told him everything was okay or words to that effect. So what was Paterno supposed to do, especially with a guy who was no longer even working under him as a coach. At this point, I see no fault whatsoever with Joe Paterno, and it seems like the prosecutors agree as well.
Understandable though, considering everything Philadelphia sports-wise that he thought were true...simply is not.
The Patroit-News calls for Joe's ouster
I agree he has to go but it should have been Sunday night and not at the end of the season. MJ
edited to add - Matt Millen is still an idiot
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<< <i>Typical SteveK bias. He would be all over the guy if it were a rival program.
Understandable though, considering everything Philadelphia sports-wise that he thought were true...simply is not. >>
Im an OSU fan, even after the bull@^$# that went down with the tatoos and everything else, I still love my Buckeyes, as well as Jim Tressel. Dont hate on Steve for standing up for his alma mater. His BLUE blood runs deep.
1) After Paterno learned of the allegations, did the accused continue to have contact with any kids in any capacity associated with the football program?
2) After Paterno learned of the allegations, did Paterno have any association with the accused in any capacity on campus or in association with the football program?
If the answer is yes to either of these questions, then there is no question that Paterno should be axed, and his reputation forever in the mud.
As for Stevek's bias, when it comes to something like this, and your biased love for a sports team trumps your common sensibility...then he is a bigger fool than everyone already knows he is.
3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on...>>>
I'll start with the obligatory "I don't condone anything that went on with Sandusky molesting children". It's obviously a heinous crime that will scar, if not ruin, these kid's lives forever.
Now that that is out of the way, I think points 2 and 3 from SA's post go a long way in determining how much blame JoePa should take. We don't know how many times JoePa followed up with the AD to see what the situation is. Given his 30+ year relationship with Sandusky, I assume the two of them were probably pretty good friends, maybe the best of friends. I would think he didn't just report it once and then forget about it, but if he did, maybe he did just because he didn't want to think about his friend doing those things. And since Sandusky was 3 years removed from his position at Penn State when he learned of the incident, JoePa probably felt that the AD and school president would be more appropriate to handle the situation.
What's he supposed to do, follow up with the AD every week to see how the case against his friend of 30+ years is going??
All conjecture on my part, but I know I'd probably have the same reaction and have a hard time turning against my friend of 30 years, even after hearing second hand about a despicable act like this. In all honesty, I probably would have done exactly what JoePa did (and I bet a lot of those that want to string him up would too, even if they won't admit it).
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<< <i><<<2) JoPa did not witness the issue, and Sandusky was not on the staff of PSU at the time, JoPa should not be held accountable for what the AD did.
3) Should have JoPa followed up with the AD? Yes -- But at this time we do not know if he did or didn't, if the AD stated they did not report it should he went to the police -- Yes.... But we do not know exactly what he was told was going on...>>>
I'll start with the obligatory "I don't condone anything that went on with Sandusky molesting children". It's obviously a heinous crime that will scar, if not ruin, these kid's lives forever.
Now that that is out of the way, I think points 2 and 3 from SA's post go a long way in determining how much blame JoePa should take. We don't know how many times JoePa followed up with the AD to see what the situation is. Given his 30+ year relationship with Sandusky, I assume the two of them were probably pretty good friends, maybe the best of friends. I would think he didn't just report it once and then forget about it, but if he did, maybe he did just because he didn't want to think about his friend doing those things. And since Sandusky was 3 years removed from his position at Penn State when he learned of the incident, JoePa probably felt that the AD and school president would be more appropriate to handle the situation.
What's he supposed to do, follow up with the AD every week to see how the case against his friend of 30+ years is going??
All conjecture on my part, but I know I'd probably have the same reaction and have a hard time turning against my friend of 30 years, even after hearing second hand about a despicable act like this. In all honesty, I probably would have done exactly what JoePa did (and I bet a lot of those that want to string him up would too, even if they won't admit it). >>
Excellent post. I agree on all counts. I think the point here isn't that Paterno is a bad guy; the point is that Paterno is a very good man who clearly dropped the ball. I don't know why the tone of this thread swings between lynching Paterno for being a phony and a coward and unwavering, unconditional support for him, when the proper reaction to this scandal and Paterno's involvement in it is clearly somewhere in the middle.
Good people make mistakes; they sometimes take the low road, or the easy way out, when they know better. They try to ignore things that they know they shouldn't be ignoring. Paterno is a great football coach, and by all accounts a great man, but just like the rest of us he is flawed- as this scandal has demonstrated.
If JoPa's head rolls for this, that would be completely ridiculous, and I would probably stop paying attention to college sports all together. JoPa did what he was supposed to do. Just because he's the biggest name in Penn State, doesn't mean this scandal should cost him his job.
The authorities knew about Sandusky's habits in 1998, but did nothing to stop it. The Grad Student who reported the incident to Paterno never reported the incident to authorities, and this incident is still alleged because they still don't have an ID on the kid. Paterno reported the incident to his superiors. Maybe he could/should have done more. Apparently he never heard anything else about the incident from his superiors, so maybe he assumed it had been dealt with or nothing happened. "Pedo State".. really. If Sandusky is a pervert, he should burn in Hell, but Penn State students and alumni shouldn't bear the consequences of this.
Edit: this really has nothing to do with Sports.
<< <i>Well at least the players didn't trade their signed uniforms for tattoos, because we all know that's completely heinous and the team would have been banned from having a football team all together.
If JoPa's head rolls for this, that would be completely ridiculous, and I would probably stop paying attention to college sports all together. JoPa did what he was supposed to do. Just because he's the biggest name in Penn State, doesn't mean this scandal should cost him his job. >>
ok lets look at it this way.
Joe Pa : excuse me Mr A.D., i need to tell you something
AD : ok ill look into it
...ho hum,,,,10 years later
BOOM
Now anyone with a brain would be on the A.D.'s butt on a daily basis from day 1 trying to find out whats going on with the issues. If im Joe that piece of shyt would not be allowed with 50 miles of my facilty. So yes i think Joe knew about it for a while just looked the other way, maybe because he didnt know what to do.
DING DONG - call the police