I'm new to this thread and have nothing to do with PSA registry sets. I do collect HOFers from the 1975 Topps mini set. One thing I learned on this thread is that the Blyleven card often comes with a (PD) qualifier.
I just picked this one up on eBay and I'm pretty happy with it. Back when I was a kid, I never would have considered the card to be anything but perfect.
Edited to add: THe card looks much nicer in actual size
Nice1 on the Heideman!, IMO that card might actually be tougher to find in high grade full-sized than the C.Wash. There are only 2 full-sized 9s - I have seen them all and the pop will soon be 4 not 6. Also, that card has been graded short much more often than CWash for some reason (timing of the submissions around 2008). I know that MM got a great 9 Heideman and a great deal on it.
As for the Blyleven, that card is a petry dish of afflictions from centering, diamond-cuts, shorts, and PDs. Many of the stars in the minis are much harder than their pops might indicate (Carew, Garvey, Jackson, Bench, B. Robinson (I estimate legit pop at 6-8) and F. Robinson, Aaron 1 and 660, Ryan, Ryan HL#5, Fingers, Perry, Winfield, Palmer (this card is SO hard to find in a legit 9), Gibson, Schmidt, and DEF Yount, Brett, and Hernandez rookies which were brutalized by the knife...damn that is just about all of them). Be VERY careful to check whether the star cards fill the holder. As has been stated here a couple times - and I can definitely verify this - star power has dramatically waned over the past 3 years...you just dont see strong 9 star cards offered outside of set-breaks. Basically, the only star 9s that have been sold recently have been from the huge breaks by MattyC and Eric
My 11-card sub popped this afternoon. No complaints here. I knew most of those 7's were borderline. And many of the 7's here have better eye appeal than one's currently in my set, so I am happy. I'm slowly making my way toward an all 8 or better set.
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 23 BILL RUSSELL Card NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 30 BERT BLYLEVEN Card NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 163 JIM BREWER Card MINT 9 1975 TOPPS MINI 290 JON MATLACK Card NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 345 CLAY CARROLL Card NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 380 SAL BANDO Card NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 405 JOHN MONTAGUE Card NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 442 MAXIMINO LEON Card NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 473 KEN McMULLEN Card NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 512 LARRY MILBOURNE Card NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1975 TOPPS MINI 570 JIM WYNN Card
got the mini cello box today. nicely packaged and sent quick. a couple f nice surprises with mvps on back. the psa 7 ryan cello is oc/mc, but it also has koufax on back.
<< <i>got the mini cello box today. nicely packaged and sent quick. a couple f nice surprises with mvps on back. the psa 7 ryan cello is oc/mc, but it also has koufax on back. >>
Nice pickup, Jim!
If you're looking to move any of the PSA 9 packs with commons showing, you know where to find me!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
On a serious note, what is up with the psa 9 Ryan? Clearly short. Though the top border has nice fuzz to it, the top right corner is obviously crushed and it shows on back as well. Nicely centered and good eye appeal. Someone is going to get hosed.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The Killebrew is tragic. The Munson is bad too. I'd like to see a ruler on the Yount to see if it is over 80mm. It might not be too bad, as it in one of the old holders.
As a sad side note though, the action on the Killebrew reinforces the point that there is plenty of interest in high grade minis that has been pent up, its just bad that someone naive is going to pay a lot for that holder.
that sub is an awesome example of something it takes a mini collector to appreciate. matlack is a beast 9 and a couple tough 8s to boot. nicely done.
Thanks, Jim. I hear you. Sub results like that for most (if not all) other sets of that era would have really discouraged/angered the submitter. Knowing the difficulty of most of those cards I submitted, I was extremely happy with the results. With low pop mini's, it only takes 2 or 3 good hits (sometimes just 1) to make a submission of that size worthwhile.
I agree with Jim, the Bill Russell and Clay Carroll are pretty tough 8s. In regards to the Yount, look at the back scan, it only looks better compared with the Killebrew which is "legendary" in its height impediment.
Jim, yes, the fact that PSA hasn't graded most natural shorts is the number one reason the pops are low. I was just stating another reason. Glad you filled the gigantic whole, reiterating the obvious one
Yes, very true. The Maximino Leon is also a tough 8 due to centering and PD issues like with the Russell. When talking about 8's, the Russell usually commands a slightly higher price than the Leon I think not due to differences in difficulty but differences in the popularity of the player (Russell gets a premium because he is more well known and was a Dodger). The Carroll has the added difficulty, because one has to deal with not only centering and PD issues, but the size issue as well.
On a related matter, the issue of having to deal with size alone makes cards like the Montague, Bando, and Milbourne tough even in a 7.
The Maximino Leon card I think is one of those underrated toughies. I'll use the Russell as a comparison. According to the POP report as of today, there have been 67 Russells graded and 74 Leons. Of the 67 Russells, 78% of those have been graded at an 8 or higher. The breakdown on Russell is: 35 eights, 16 nines, and 1 ten. Of the 74 Leons graded, 64% have of those have been graded 8 or higher. The breakdown is as follows: 41 eights, 6 nines, and 0 tens.
I've never thought of the Leon as being more difficult than the Russell, but it appears to be that way.
I've always thought of Leon as a beast in this set. 8s used to command a very pretty penny, but didnt recover in the same way as others. Kind of like Rennie Stennett (was an $80 8 at one time) and some others. Henry will have better numbers, but the Russell turns up short far, far more often as they usually have centering issues and there is a benefit. The Leon almost always has printing issues. I am lucky to own a really nice 9 of Leon and a self pulled/graded 9 of Russell. I also owned 2 short Russell 9s. Still have one and gave the other to a board member as a filler when it was the last card he needed to complete his set.
Ugh! lol You revealed a couple of my hidden gems! In regards to the Russell 9 - of the 16 - I know that 5 are bad (40164483, 90372512, 14283692, 60046350, 60046525) jpgs are readily available at VCP, 4 are good that I know of 08253219, 16198708 and two in my collection (havent been home to scan them)...so that is a huge buy for me in a 9. I know many 8s are bad for this card as well As for the Leon 9 there are only 6 and I have logged 5 of them and they all look good to me (14238183, 07284738, 60045913?, 15897259, 16131630) As a major disclaimer: some of these are just eyeballs, some from auction scans - so they are not entirely foolproof...a few I put question marks because I could not tell exactly by scan and the height was borderline.
I checked my inventory and somehow I have 3 psa 9 Leons (I believe I won Eric's and MattyCs?) and Russells...so 4 of the Leons have been accounted for. I know that MM has one so there are 5...maybe Tommy has the other I am not sure. As for the Russells, the pop will go down to 14 soon (4016 and 9037 will go bye bye) the other three I have are full i believe. I just read Jim's post and he is spot on as usual, the Russell 8s and 9s are highly vulnerable because the defect is almost always T/B centering therefore there was an opportunity to cut some short during the window. The Leon has many other issues, also, I believe there was a run of solid 8s from the conlon collection.
I am not sure Indy...I might be confident with the general statement that Russell is harder to find in an 8 but that Leon is very difficult in a 9. The one unknown is the actual number of Russell 9s that fill the holder. It is probably less than 10 is my guess...therefore, it is entirely possible that you are correct - that there are less viable Russells 8 and above than Leon. Russell was one of my major sleepers for a while
FYI, regarding the two PSA 10's #125 Ken Singleton, and #163 Jim Brewer. I was offered them and passed due to the amounts the seller wanted. The seller was asking $2,500 for the #125 Singleton, $1,200 for the #163 Brewer. While these cards look great, those prices are considerably higher than other common 10's have been going for with those pop's. If someone would like to offer me $2,500 for one common PSA 10 card from my set, I'd be more than happy to consider those offers Even if you question the other Singleton PSA 10's validity, there are no other common 1 of 1 PSA 10 75 Topps Mini's that have gone for anywhere near that kind of money. Until now?
I paid significantly less than those proposals MM, but for me the deal was the Brewer. There are only 6 9s (soon to be 5) and one other is worse than this Singleton 10 (14258762) Therefore, the real populatoin of Brewer 9s is a maximum 4 probably 3. Also, not all common pop1 10s are alike as you are aware. There are some that I am sure we will find more examples of, but what is the likelihood of finding another Brewer perfectly centered and as brilliant as that? Not high is my guess. Also, the Brewer and Singleton are iconic commons in an inconic set so they get a premium. As an exemplar, the Gates Brown psa 10 twice sold for over 1K, I lost once and decided I wouldn't lose out again when Eric sold his collection. Again, I think the likelihood that another Gates Brown, Singleton, or Brewer 10 will pop up anytime soon is low. To be honest, it is hard to find ANY Brewers that are centered.
I have some interesting observations. I don't know what to make of all of it, but here they are. Look at the left edge of the Singleton that Henry just posted. It looks just like the left edge of the Blyleven on eBay. I also looked at a few cards in my registry set. I found the following that are full size, but have a similar left edge: Bench 260, Rivers, Patek, Rogers, and Montanez. Again, they are all full size. But, what I find interesting is that if you go to page 7 of this thread and look at the sheets I posted, EVERY CARD I mentioned with the similar left edge is on the middle sheet (i.e., same sheet). Also, go to page 2 of this thread, and look at the Rogers, Zisk, and others that BoSox posted - they have a similar cut. Guess what sheet they came off of - the same one as Singleton, Montanez, etc. I would be curious to hear if any of you have noticed a left edge cut like the Blyleven and Singleton on your cards and which of the cards they would be. It wouldn't surprise me if they all came off of that same sheet.
Incidentally, I have noticed such an edge in other years - for example '79 T baseball, so I don't find it to be unusual. The fact that PSA seems to be holdering all of these cards with similar edges (and the flips are all recent), including the minis, makes me think they are legit.
On a related point, this past weekend at my local monthly card show, a dealer had '79 T baseball that came from what they called a "cut card case." There were whole runs of cards (like 20 or so one player). I did a search on the term and learned that a cut card case contained cards numbering in the thousands all from ONE 132-CARD SHEET and stacked freely in a box without any kind of wrapping. Apparently, Topps sold these cards this way at the end of the print year to select dealers. Putting 2 and 2 together, it makes me wonder if Mini's off of that middle sheet were similarly distributed in cut card cases and that there is a relationship to that left edge. Maybe they cut the cards differently for the cut card cases. I know it's a stretch, but I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has ever heard of mini's being distributed in bulk this way. Also, has anyone heard of a cut card case?
I don't know if you all remember this Lolich I posted in the old thread. But, it looks like the Blyleven and Singleton in terms of its edges and being a tad short. Guess what sheet it came from?
How many cards have you seen that have worn/handled top corners and top/side edges, yet the bottoms corners are pack sharp or better, oh and it is short....
Not sure where you are going with these posts Indy. First, to my knowledge there were no cut card cases for minis (you are correct in that cut card cases were just a packaging difference, there were no cut differences. Basically, it was a way for Topps to dump excess inventory quickly to major dealers who would then create sets). Second, that particular color combo can be very rare in high grade because almost all the cards are 80/20 or worse TB. However, because many of them (i.e. Lolich, Brewer, Singleton) dont also have common print defects (Davis and C.Wash snowstorm) it was possible to cut them during the window when there was confusion as to the appropriate height of the card (5 1/8 versus 5 3/8). Matt Morse signalled to me that old Becketts actually had the wrong size printed for a short period then changed it. Third, most of these problem cards eminate from a single source which is easily traceable on VCP from a particular number of years and with similar register numbers (the dreaded 6004 registered cards). Once the board raised this issue the stream of shorts magically stopped. Even with all of this, one can easily see how truly rare these cards are becaue the pops are still in line with, for example the 1971 Claude Raymond (around 35 8s and 2 9s) which sells for well north of 500.00 in an 8.
Here is a stunning observation, if true. I believe that the pops of the 1975 regular issue have been going up faster than the minis even AFTER the Conlon collection was sold! Is this true? I cant find the exact numbers - but it looks like it.
Actually, all the corners on the Lolich are razor sharp. The wear on the top edge of the Lolich looks like it was cut from the actual cutting process. In other words, there is no handling wear on the card.
I'm just wondering why is it that alot of cards that are a tad short seem to be coming from that particular sheet. Is there a possibility that cards off of it could possibly be cut short at the factory? I'd like to know.
Thanks Henry for the info on cut card cases. That rules out that theory. I guess I'm just a little jittery seeing cards a tad short in recent flips, and I'm trying to make sense of it.
Don't rule out cut card cases as I think they do/did actually exist. I took some pictures to illustrate the point and will try to post them tomorrow.
At the risk of confusing the issue all to heck and back, and also to help illustrate what a difficult job graders have, I believe that there are not only cut card cases, but fractionally short cards of all flavors out in the wild that are in fact natural.
Big statement, I know. I and others here have opened enough packs of different types and from enough different cases to conclude that only green and red yellow cards came naturally short in packs.
I have, in my possession, a lot of almost 200 mini Joe Rudis. They are overall gorgeous. Well centered and sharp, with some snow problems mixed in. Every single one is cut exactly the same. Every single one is also 1/16-1/32 short. Nobody took the time to personally cut these cards. For starters, if they cut them for gain, they would have graded them. Secondly, they are all dead clean on every edge. They all have pack fresh gloss. Centering however varies a bit, as does print with the snow issue. What doesn't vary is the size. What it says to me is that 200 or more sheets, of the same sheet, werfe cut at the same time on the same machine. Where else could that have reasonably happened, other than at the factory? I also have a similar amount of Andy Messersmith with the same story and others as well. The kicker is that these cards came from more than one source as parts of bulk buys.
Last, and very important, none of the edges have that sharp, shiny look that is a dead give away as recently cut. They all have edges that look like they were pressed and cut with a not quiet sharp enough blade and look exactly like the edges that you often see on 1976s, suggesting that they were in fact leftovers cut after the fact at the factory... yes I took a big leap there and know it, but I think it is more than possible.
I can not come up with any other explanation other than cut card cases.
like they were pressed and cut with a not [quite] sharp enough blade
That's exactly the look I'm talking about in my prior posts with regard to the edges. It's just that from what I've seen, the left edge is just a little more "pressed" than the others so that the top glossy surface of the card right along the edge angles downward just enough that it reflects the light when looking at the card dead-on. You can see something like it on the Blyleven and the Singleton. The Lolich had it also - you just can't see it in that scan.
I have/had a raw Rudi precisely as you described yours. After you post your scans, I'll dig it up from my raw collection (and others) if I still have it and compare it to yours.
They did not have cut card cases for 1975 minis (only regular issue I was told - has anyone ever heard or seen a cut-card mini case?). I have broken a couple cut card cases. Again, dont let the name confuse you. All this means is that Topps dropped 12000 cards in a large box without any case or vending box. Just stacked them up and dropped them in at the end of the year. This is not a term to reveal a different cutting process or different sizes. I have the same issue Jim with a pile of Lonborgs (like you describe with the Rudis). Only Topps can answer this. We do know what the intended and correct size of the mini issue is: whether the card was miscut at factory or recut at the hands of the unscrupulous they wont be in my collection, and I wont resell them to another collector if I have the misfortune of acquiring them. What is interesting is the damage they have done to the value of high end minis. At some sick level I should be thankful because it has greatly aided my ability to acquire some great cards. For example, the disatrous 6004 Inda-card auction demolished many established prices for low pop commons (I call this the 6004 auction where 100s of glaringly short cards were sold in one set break...most of the offending cards had a registration number starting with 6004...). One example is the 111 Garrett. It is a relatively difficult card with a population of 12 in psa 9 condition. It used to sell for 60.00 plus, then the 6004 auction had a significantly short card for sale: The card sold for 17.20 and the Garrett VCP was emaciated. So I was able to subsequently pick up one or two cheaply. Another phenomenon I have seen with dozens of cards is that the same short card will be sold multiple times every-time there is an increase in price which basically brings the price back down. There is one particular short Brett 9 that has passed hands 3 times. The 219 Hermann 9 has had 2 cards (one short one good) sold 4 times over the past decade so the price remains suppressed at around 125.00 for an exceptionally hard card. As soon as a new fantastic card is uncovered and maybe sold for 300+, the crap card will follow bringing the price back down. The problem with minis is that the crap card receives SO much less at auction. The mini is maligned by this issue. It has been different with the 1972, 1973, and even the 1975 issues which have appreciated with upward momentum on lower pop 9s. If we want to debate the issue about shorts ad infinitum I am fine with it, I will just keep buying nice examples of minis cheaply to be honest
Another example: Rojas (169) pop 12 in a 9...has a VCP of 30.11 before the latest sale with Probstein...I have documented 9 solid examples and only ONE short (14955630), however this one card has been sold 3 times over the past 5 years and each time for significantly less than a full-sized card. This one card has held down the price of Rojas and I have picked up some incredible bargains as the underbidder has basically used VCP. Another? 421 METS team with pop only 9 in psa9...two cards one short (15304068) and one questionable (14232596) has been sold 5 times over the past 5-7 years! Another? 069 Odom (pop 13 with 3 known shorts). This card did not come up very often and sold for between 60-90 dollars - however the 6004 auction dropped the price to 23.00. Right after, a couple beautiful examples came up for sale from Eric, MattyC and another seller. I won several of them for a pittance only because the 6004 auction dropped the price and bidders based their snipe on VCP. I share all this now for the new guys building their sets. This set is much more complex to price than any other 1970s decade set I have worked on; but it has been a joy to investigate the pricing of these cards!
I have a pile of Lonborgs as well. I have cracked cut card cases myself and have seen them come two ways: Random like vending and where all of the same player were bunched together. In the case where all were bunched together by player, almost every card subbed of any player came back n6. Whether the minis came from a "cut card case(s)" or out the back door of topps, I believe these cards are factory cards, not collector cut. If they were collector cut, there would be no low pops at all. There would also be inconsistancy in the size.
I'm not suggesting whether these should be graded, just sharing some detective work that shows just how hard this is.
I assembled a couple of lots of players that I bought in bulk as parts of other deals. The first three are of course of minis, the last two are of a lot of over 100 1971 Topps #321 Tom Matchick. The Matchicks are shown as they are from an original buyer of cut card cases from Topps. The sheen the cards show is hard to see in a photo, but I am talking about the left edge when they are all laid on their side in a box. Vending has a particular look, you all know the look. These on the other hand "shine" and lay perfectly even. Also, the top right corner/edge of the 1971s are very similar to the minis, showing the same odd wear, keeping them as 8s. A number of the minis seen in the first three photos came from the same source as the confirmed cut card Matchicks. Conclusive? No. Interesting? Yes.
<< <i>Another example: Rojas (169) pop 12 in a 9...has a VCP of 30.11 before the latest sale with Probstein...I have documented 9 solid examples and only ONE short (14955630), however this one card has been sold 3 times over the past 5 years and each time for significantly less than a full-sized card. This one card has held down the price of Rojas and I have picked up some incredible bargains as the underbidder has basically used VCP. Another? 421 METS team with pop only 9 in psa9...two cards one short (15304068) and one questionable (14232596) has been sold 5 times over the past 5-7 years! Another? 069 Odom (pop 13 with 3 known shorts). This card did not come up very often and sold for between 60-90 dollars - however the 6004 auction dropped the price to 23.00. Right after, a couple beautiful examples came up for sale from Eric, MattyC and another seller. I won several of them for a pittance only because the 6004 auction dropped the price and bidders based their snipe on VCP. I share all this now for the new guys building their sets. This set is much more complex to price than any other 1970s decade set I have worked on; but it has been a joy to investigate the pricing of these cards! >>
Tolan is another example as I can recall a short one selling for way below VCP, too.
I echo what Jim said about other color combos being slightly short out of the pack. I self-submit the vast majority of cards for my set with cards I've personally pulled from packs and have seen this happen where a different color combo will come out very slightly short in the holder, but it is almost always nowhere near what you will see when compared to the cards in question, which are more easily recognizable.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
All I can say is wow as to all those runs of cards. I find it hard to believe that somebody tracked down hundreds of sheets or 100's of Rudi's, Rivers, Longborgs, etc., to "manufacture" those. I can't imagine the time it would take to find 200 Rudi's with the exact same coloring, exact same centering, and exact same PD.
Here is a raw Rudi purchased at a card show in 2008 or 2009. Same cut as the stack of Duff's. Same centering. Same intensely bold color. Same PD. Mine looks like it came off of the same print run as that stack. Mine is 79.9 mm tall by 57 mm wide. So, yes, it's slightly short.
For some strange reason I can remember get see through bags of mini's at Kmart in 1976? I don't know if it was left overs and they bagged them up and sold them or it was a local distributor that did it? Can anyone else remember this?
interesting jim...i have a huge 5000 ct box of raw. my longborg stack is half that, and i know I have 5-10 examples like you have that were significantly shorter of other cards. BTW that is a lot of Rudi! If I were PSA I would just MC any that are submitted at that height as simple miscuts and simplify the issue. I am fine with min size req strategy they use, but it just makes life difficult for them. Did you guys pick up some raw from that high end set break that used psa in their headline? Some of those cards look great
<< <i>For some strange reason I can remember get see through bags of mini's at Kmart in 1976? I don't know if it was left overs and they bagged them up and sold them or it was a local distributor that did it? Can anyone else remember this? >>
I have a very vague recollection of this. I do know that in my area of Michigan there were NO regular issue Topps. Every store ONLY sold the minis. This has been part of my argument that the mini is misclassified. It was more than a test issue. It was the regular issue in many parts of Michigan and up and down the west coast. Dealers were probably given a choice on which to sell, perhaps, but I suspect that Topps just sent the mini as its regular issue to most places like liquor stores, 7-11s and Kmarts.
Henry, I would agree the Brewer card would be the better deal of the two cards, at a reduced price. The Singleton was no bargain even had it been reduced by half. I highly doubt the seller cut the prices that low, as I had offered a price in that range and the seller passed on it. Perhaps you were aided by my unwillingness to offer an amount near the sellers demand? There are probably only 3 collectors willing to pay a price in excess of $800 for a common PSA 10 Mini. The only time there is a slight deveation from this pattern is usually when it's near impossible to get a given example in PSA 9. Then, like you mentioned with the Gates Brown PSA 10, the price may swing a bit over $1,000. You could count the number of times a common PSA 10 sold for over $1,000 on one hand (when Eric wasn't bidding.... lol). The seller see's that I don't have a PSA 9 or better in a Singleton and he tries to get 3 times the cards value? Sorry, I'll live with my PSA 8 thank you! This was one of the primary reasons I had made my set private on the Set Registry. I make it public and it's ironic how another PSA 10 of Singleton showed up and was offered to me so soon after I did this? Was it simply a coincidence? Perhaps, but it's a pretty amazing coincidence if you ask me! One things clear, price gouging was in play I don't blame a seller for trying..... but holding firm on a price known to be well in excess of the going highest rate on a card? Pretty much ends the loyal customer relationship for me!
MM with all due respect, to even suggest, let alone conclude at the emergence of a newly graded singleton 10 was in some way connected to the publishing of your set is ....
There are absolutley risks with publishing a set as even the cards that I need get juiced, so I am not arguing that point and risk, you are correct on both counts.
That said, Singleton has been a beast for the entire existance of the registry. 8s have sold for over $200 (in 2008) and it was a one pop 9 for many years. There has only been one public sale of a 9 that wasnt butchered and it went for 910, or 300 more than the previously 1 pop butchered 10. As someone who knows this set, are you suggesting that somehow the Gates 10 is any different or more special in circumstance than the singleton, when if anything, it is inferior?
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I just picked this one up on eBay and I'm pretty happy with it. Back when I was a kid, I never would have considered the card to be anything but perfect.
Edited to add: THe card looks much nicer in actual size
As for the Blyleven, that card is a petry dish of afflictions from centering, diamond-cuts, shorts, and PDs. Many of the stars in the minis are much harder than their pops might indicate (Carew, Garvey, Jackson, Bench, B. Robinson (I estimate legit pop at 6-8) and F. Robinson, Aaron 1 and 660, Ryan, Ryan HL#5, Fingers, Perry, Winfield, Palmer (this card is SO hard to find in a legit 9), Gibson, Schmidt, and DEF Yount, Brett, and Hernandez rookies which were brutalized by the knife...damn that is just about all of them). Be VERY careful to check whether the star cards fill the holder. As has been stated here a couple times - and I can definitely verify this - star power has dramatically waned over the past 3 years...you just dont see strong 9 star cards offered outside of set-breaks. Basically, the only star 9s that have been sold recently have been from the huge breaks by MattyC and Eric
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 23 BILL RUSSELL Card
NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 30 BERT BLYLEVEN Card
NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 163 JIM BREWER Card
MINT 9 1975 TOPPS MINI 290 JON MATLACK Card
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 345 CLAY CARROLL Card
NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 380 SAL BANDO Card
NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 405 JOHN MONTAGUE Card
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 442 MAXIMINO LEON Card
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS MINI 473 KEN McMULLEN Card
NEAR MINT 7 1975 TOPPS MINI 512 LARRY MILBOURNE Card
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1975 TOPPS MINI 570 JIM WYNN Card
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<< <i>got the mini cello box today. nicely packaged and sent quick. a couple f nice surprises with mvps on back. the psa 7 ryan cello is oc/mc, but it also has koufax on back. >>
Nice pickup, Jim!
If you're looking to move any of the PSA 9 packs with commons showing, you know where to find me!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
On a serious note, what is up with the psa 9 Ryan? Clearly short. Though the top border has nice fuzz to it, the top right corner is obviously crushed and it shows on back as well. Nicely centered and good eye appeal. Someone is going to get hosed.
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As a sad side note though, the action on the Killebrew reinforces the point that there is plenty of interest in high grade minis that has been pent up, its just bad that someone naive is going to pay a lot for that holder.
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Thanks, Jim. I hear you. Sub results like that for most (if not all) other sets of that era would have really discouraged/angered the submitter. Knowing the difficulty of most of those cards I submitted, I was extremely happy with the results. With low pop mini's, it only takes 2 or 3 good hits (sometimes just 1) to make a submission of that size worthwhile.
In regards to the Yount, look at the back scan, it only looks better compared with the Killebrew which is "legendary" in its height impediment.
Jim, yes, the fact that PSA hasn't graded most natural shorts is the number one reason the pops are low.
I was just stating another reason. Glad you filled the gigantic whole, reiterating the obvious one
Thanks,
Scott
1975 Topps Registry Set "Scott's 75 Topps Set"
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Yes, very true. The Maximino Leon is also a tough 8 due to centering and PD issues like with the Russell. When talking about 8's, the Russell usually commands a slightly higher price than the Leon I think not due to differences in difficulty but differences in the popularity of the player (Russell gets a premium because he is more well known and was a Dodger). The Carroll has the added difficulty, because one has to deal with not only centering and PD issues, but the size issue as well.
On a related matter, the issue of having to deal with size alone makes cards like the Montague, Bando, and Milbourne tough even in a 7.
I've never thought of the Leon as being more difficult than the Russell, but it appears to be that way.
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As for the Leon 9 there are only 6 and I have logged 5 of them and they all look good to me (14238183, 07284738, 60045913?, 15897259, 16131630)
As a major disclaimer: some of these are just eyeballs, some from auction scans - so they are not entirely foolproof...a few I put question marks because I could not tell exactly by scan and the height was borderline.
Sounds like the Russell is rarer than the Leon in high grade.
I paid significantly less than those proposals MM, but for me the deal was the Brewer. There are only 6 9s (soon to be 5) and one other is worse than this Singleton 10 (14258762) Therefore, the real populatoin of Brewer 9s is a maximum 4 probably 3. Also, not all common pop1 10s are alike as you are aware. There are some that I am sure we will find more examples of, but what is the likelihood of finding another Brewer perfectly centered and as brilliant as that? Not high is my guess. Also, the Brewer and Singleton are iconic commons in an inconic set so they get a premium. As an exemplar, the Gates Brown psa 10 twice sold for over 1K, I lost once and decided I wouldn't lose out again when Eric sold his collection. Again, I think the likelihood that another Gates Brown, Singleton, or Brewer 10 will pop up anytime soon is low. To be honest, it is hard to find ANY Brewers that are centered.
<< <i>What do you all think of that Blyleven in 8 that was just listed tonight on the bay? >>
That Blyleven is a "likely" trim but it is not plainly obvious. That is, the height is almost at the minimum I would accept. Tough call, that one.
Incidentally, I have noticed such an edge in other years - for example '79 T baseball, so I don't find it to be unusual. The fact that PSA seems to be holdering all of these cards with similar edges (and the flips are all recent), including the minis, makes me think they are legit.
On a related point, this past weekend at my local monthly card show, a dealer had '79 T baseball that came from what they called a "cut card case." There were whole runs of cards (like 20 or so one player). I did a search on the term and learned that a cut card case contained cards numbering in the thousands all from ONE 132-CARD SHEET and stacked freely in a box without any kind of wrapping. Apparently, Topps sold these cards this way at the end of the print year to select dealers. Putting 2 and 2 together, it makes me wonder if Mini's off of that middle sheet were similarly distributed in cut card cases and that there is a relationship to that left edge. Maybe they cut the cards differently for the cut card cases. I know it's a stretch, but I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has ever heard of mini's being distributed in bulk this way. Also, has anyone heard of a cut card case?
I don't know if you all remember this Lolich I posted in the old thread. But, it looks like the Blyleven and Singleton in terms of its edges and being a tad short. Guess what sheet it came from?
My observtion of the Lolich is this:
How many cards have you seen that have worn/handled top corners and top/side edges, yet the bottoms corners are pack sharp or better, oh and it is short....
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I'm just wondering why is it that alot of cards that are a tad short seem to be coming from that particular sheet. Is there a possibility that cards off of it could possibly be cut short at the factory? I'd like to know.
At the risk of confusing the issue all to heck and back, and also to help illustrate what a difficult job graders have, I believe that there are not only cut card cases, but fractionally short cards of all flavors out in the wild that are in fact natural.
Big statement, I know. I and others here have opened enough packs of different types and from enough different cases to conclude that only green and red yellow cards came naturally short in packs.
I have, in my possession, a lot of almost 200 mini Joe Rudis. They are overall gorgeous. Well centered and sharp, with some snow problems mixed in. Every single one is cut exactly the same. Every single one is also 1/16-1/32 short. Nobody took the time to personally cut these cards. For starters, if they cut them for gain, they would have graded them. Secondly, they are all dead clean on every edge. They all have pack fresh gloss. Centering however varies a bit, as does print with the snow issue. What doesn't vary is the size.
What it says to me is that 200 or more sheets, of the same sheet, werfe cut at the same time on the same machine. Where else could that have reasonably happened, other than at the factory? I also have a similar amount of Andy Messersmith with the same story and others as well. The kicker is that these cards came from more than one source as parts of bulk buys.
Last, and very important, none of the edges have that sharp, shiny look that is a dead give away as recently cut. They all have edges that look like they were pressed and cut with a not quiet sharp enough blade and look exactly like the edges that you often see on 1976s, suggesting that they were in fact leftovers cut after the fact at the factory... yes I took a big leap there and know it, but I think it is more than possible.
I can not come up with any other explanation other than cut card cases.
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With regard to this statement:
like they were pressed and cut with a not [quite] sharp enough blade
That's exactly the look I'm talking about in my prior posts with regard to the edges. It's just that from what I've seen, the left edge is just a little more "pressed" than the others so that the top glossy surface of the card right along the edge angles downward just enough that it reflects the light when looking at the card dead-on. You can see something like it on the Blyleven and the Singleton. The Lolich had it also - you just can't see it in that scan.
I have/had a raw Rudi precisely as you described yours. After you post your scans, I'll dig it up from my raw collection (and others) if I still have it and compare it to yours.
I have the same issue Jim with a pile of Lonborgs (like you describe with the Rudis). Only Topps can answer this. We do know what the intended and correct size of the mini issue is: whether the card was miscut at factory or recut at the hands of the unscrupulous they wont be in my collection, and I wont resell them to another collector if I have the misfortune of acquiring them.
What is interesting is the damage they have done to the value of high end minis. At some sick level I should be thankful because it has greatly aided my ability to acquire some great cards.
For example, the disatrous 6004 Inda-card auction demolished many established prices for low pop commons (I call this the 6004 auction where 100s of glaringly short cards were sold in one set break...most of the offending cards had a registration number starting with 6004...). One example is the 111 Garrett. It is a relatively difficult card with a population of 12 in psa 9 condition. It used to sell for 60.00 plus, then the 6004 auction had a significantly short card for sale: The card sold for 17.20 and the Garrett VCP was emaciated. So I was able to subsequently pick up one or two cheaply.
Another phenomenon I have seen with dozens of cards is that the same short card will be sold multiple times every-time there is an increase in price which basically brings the price back down. There is one particular short Brett 9 that has passed hands 3 times. The 219 Hermann 9 has had 2 cards (one short one good) sold 4 times over the past decade so the price remains suppressed at around 125.00 for an exceptionally hard card. As soon as a new fantastic card is uncovered and maybe sold for 300+, the crap card will follow bringing the price back down. The problem with minis is that the crap card receives SO much less at auction. The mini is maligned by this issue. It has been different with the 1972, 1973, and even the 1975 issues which have appreciated with upward momentum on lower pop 9s.
If we want to debate the issue about shorts ad infinitum I am fine with it, I will just keep buying nice examples of minis cheaply to be honest
I share all this now for the new guys building their sets. This set is much more complex to price than any other 1970s decade set I have worked on; but it has been a joy to investigate the pricing of these cards!
I'm not suggesting whether these should be graded, just sharing some detective work that shows just how hard this is.
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<< <i>Another example: Rojas (169) pop 12 in a 9...has a VCP of 30.11 before the latest sale with Probstein...I have documented 9 solid examples and only ONE short (14955630), however this one card has been sold 3 times over the past 5 years and each time for significantly less than a full-sized card. This one card has held down the price of Rojas and I have picked up some incredible bargains as the underbidder has basically used VCP. Another? 421 METS team with pop only 9 in psa9...two cards one short (15304068) and one questionable (14232596) has been sold 5 times over the past 5-7 years! Another? 069 Odom (pop 13 with 3 known shorts). This card did not come up very often and sold for between 60-90 dollars - however the 6004 auction dropped the price to 23.00. Right after, a couple beautiful examples came up for sale from Eric, MattyC and another seller. I won several of them for a pittance only because the 6004 auction dropped the price and bidders based their snipe on VCP.
I share all this now for the new guys building their sets. This set is much more complex to price than any other 1970s decade set I have worked on; but it has been a joy to investigate the pricing of these cards! >>
Tolan is another example as I can recall a short one selling for way below VCP, too.
I echo what Jim said about other color combos being slightly short out of the pack. I self-submit the vast majority of cards for my set with cards I've personally pulled from packs and have seen this happen where a different color combo will come out very slightly short in the holder, but it is almost always nowhere near what you will see when compared to the cards in question, which are more easily recognizable.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
All I can say is wow as to all those runs of cards. I find it hard to believe that somebody tracked down hundreds of sheets or 100's of Rudi's, Rivers, Longborgs, etc., to "manufacture" those. I can't imagine the time it would take to find 200 Rudi's with the exact same coloring, exact same centering, and exact same PD.
Here is a raw Rudi purchased at a card show in 2008 or 2009. Same cut as the stack of Duff's. Same centering. Same intensely bold color. Same PD. Mine looks like it came off of the same print run as that stack. Mine is 79.9 mm tall by 57 mm wide. So, yes, it's slightly short.
I don't know if it was left overs and they bagged them up and sold them or it was a local
distributor that did it? Can anyone else remember this?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>For some strange reason I can remember get see through bags of mini's at Kmart in 1976?
I don't know if it was left overs and they bagged them up and sold them or it was a local
distributor that did it? Can anyone else remember this? >>
I have a very vague recollection of this. I do know that in my area of Michigan there were NO regular issue Topps. Every store ONLY sold the minis. This has been part of my argument that the mini is misclassified. It was more than a test issue. It was the regular issue in many parts of Michigan and up and down the west coast. Dealers were probably given a choice on which to sell, perhaps, but I suspect that Topps just sent the mini as its regular issue to most places like liquor stores, 7-11s and Kmarts.
There are absolutley risks with publishing a set as even the cards that I need get juiced, so I am not arguing that point and risk, you are correct on both counts.
That said, Singleton has been a beast for the entire existance of the registry. 8s have sold for over $200 (in 2008) and it was a one pop 9 for many years. There has only been one public sale of a 9 that wasnt butchered and it went for 910, or 300 more than the previously 1 pop butchered 10. As someone who knows this set, are you suggesting that somehow the Gates 10 is any different or more special in circumstance than the singleton, when if anything, it is inferior?
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