So what's the plan Monday? Are APMEX and Gold Center (OTC) the only APs who could be selling these? As far as I can tell, none of the others have given a hint they will be ready Monday. We know Dillon Gage is 1/11 and Coins 'N Things is 1/17.
<< <i>The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
I have visited it several times and bought numismatic gold there numerous times. From what I have read on various threads, bullion sales must go through the AP's
<< <i>And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director of the National Park Service, or the designee of the Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than 1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items as the Director determines to be appropriate.
I'm still giving 9:20 A.M. as the over/under for The Gold Center's sellout time. Anybody want to stand outside their door and count customers until the "SOLD OUT" notice is given???? TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I'm still giving 9:20 A.M. as the over/under for The Gold Center's sellout time. Anybody want to stand outside their door and count customers until the "SOLD OUT" notice is given???? TD >>
I'll do it. Little worried about the cold, but probably won't need to use both hands, so I can keep one in my mitten...
<< And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director of the National Park Service, or the designee of the Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than 1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
------------------------- "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Edited: Friday December 31, 2010 at 6:14 PM by OPA
I was under the same impression - that the auth. legislation specified that only APs could sell the bullion version.
That said, I was told personally by the ATB Program Director that, on the Monday that they halted sales, selling directly and not via the APs was considered AND was deemed legal by The Mint's legal dept. Those who advocated this were overruled (talk about a HUGE mistake). Nonetheless, he was very clear that this was an option.
<< And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director of the National Park Service, or the designee of the Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than 1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
------------------------- "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Edited: Friday December 31, 2010 at 6:14 PM by OPA
I was under the same impression - that the auth. legislation specified that only APs could sell the bullion version.
That said, I was told personally by the ATB Program Director that, on the Monday that they halted sales, selling directly and not via the APs was considered AND was deemed legal by The Mint's legal dept. Those who advocated this were overruled (talk about a HUGE mistake). Nonetheless, he was very clear that this was an option. >>
But under who's authority...Congress sure didn't give it to them
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>are they definitely going to sell them monday morning, or is this just more internet rumor ? >>
From what i was told monday 10 am and they want you to bring a picture id .They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list.
<< And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director of the National Park Service, or the designee of the Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than 1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
------------------------- "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Edited: Friday December 31, 2010 at 6:14 PM by OPA
I was under the same impression - that the auth. legislation specified that only APs could sell the bullion version.
That said, I was told personally by the ATB Program Director that, on the Monday that they halted sales, selling directly and not via the APs was considered AND was deemed legal by The Mint's legal dept. Those who advocated this were overruled (talk about a HUGE mistake). Nonetheless, he was very clear that this was an option. >>
But under who's authority...Congress sure didn't give it to them >>
An excellent question. I was at work and short on time. I did not have the Auth. Legis. in front of me.
I told him that not just I, but many members of a large coin forum, were under the same impression (that the APs were the legislated sellers). He very clearly insisted that The Mint's legal dept. had definitively told them that The Mint could sell the bullion issue.
It is incredible to me that, knowing what a cluster the AP arrangement was, and that this was PRIOR to ANY pucks being shipped, that The Mint did not decide to sell direct.
Nonetheless, this is what I was very clearly told, straight from the horse's mouth.
Guys - think a little. You get too hung up on the legal mumbo jumbo.......
Think of how you classify a bullion issue with a low mintage.....
It's easy to reclassify it as a numismatic coin based on it's limited mintage,
Numismatic coins can be sold direct via the USM.
Whether that was the angle or not, they definitely had the choice. They discussed it - from what I was told. Again, they "came down" hard on these guys (AP's) and wanted to give them the chance to do the right thing.
Clearly, they haven't.
Clearly, the USM has made a mistake.
With the mounting evidence in front of them, they should use their "audit" provision of the agreement to visit all 9 AP's to determine who is inline with the agreement. One or more of them must have released 100's of sets or more to the TV guys.
It is not too late to make a change. The USM should demand that the AP's put these on sale immediately.
The cluster didn't begin until December 3rd, when APMEX put 1000 coins up for sale to the public. The Mint suspended sales on December 6th. Had they decided to sell them on their website, they would have had to set a price, obtain packaging and shipping containers AND get the coins out the door in 17 working days. That is assuming an AP doesn't have a judge issue a restraining order forcing the Mint to suspend sales until they convince the judge they have the legal authority to sell bullion to the public. Just because an in-house lawyer says something is legal does not mean a Federal judge will agree with them.
<< <i>From what i was told monday 10 am and they want you to bring a picture id .They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
Uh-oh.
I'm on Apmex alert and Dillon Gage + Fidelitrade lists.
The way this FUBAR puck thing is going, my name + address on another's APs list will deny me.
Off to the annual New Year's party and a few computer free hours.
We have thousands of troops in harms' way tonight in remote and hostile areas, thousands of miles from family, defending our great nation and our freedom.
Those of us who are healthy and prosperous (i.e., anyone who's even thinking about buying the pucks) should give thanks for our good fortune and keep those less fortunate in our thoughts and prayers.
In the end, they're coins, stuff, whatever - fun to write about, want and debate.
They're most definitely not the important stuff.
As the year concludes and another begins anew, I wish all of you and yours a safe, happy and healthy new year.
Please keep our troops, law enforcement officers and first responders in your thoughts as they stand watch and stand ready to protect you and yours.
<< <i>They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
I call total BS on this. Nothing says the APs must share lists. How are they going to do real-time updates? Can't be done and won't be done. It's one set per household, per AP. Of course, that is assuming you can get the AP to sell to the real public, which reality has shown is doubtful. Hopefully a few more of the APs will open up next week...
Good luck with that. If the USM decided to go DIRECT sales, it would be in collectors hands before ANY decision in ANY courtroom took place. >>
We have Federal judges getting involved in every aspect of daily live these days. The AP would argue they would be irreparable harmed if the Mint proceeds and that the Mint Director's decision to classify these numismatic was both arbitrary and capricious. There are a lot of Federal judges out there, and I am sure the attorneys for the AP's have a good idea which one would they would file in.
Edit: ``(2) Availability for sale.--Bullion coins minted under paragraph (1)-- ``(A) shall become available for sale no sooner than the first day of the calendar year in which the circulating quarter dollar of which such bullion coin is a duplicate is issued; and ``(B) may only be available for sale during the year in which such circulating quarter dollar is issued. ``(3) Distribution.-- ``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director of the National Park Service, or the designee of the Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than 1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items as the Director determines to be appropriate.
The law states 'in addition' to the authorized dealers, so any attempt to exclude them from dealing with these coins would result in legal jeopardy for the Mint.
<< <i> Please keep our troops, law enforcement officers and first responders in your thoughts as they stand watch and stand ready to protect you and yours.
<< <i>They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
I call total BS on this. Nothing says the APs must share lists. How are they going to do real-time updates? Can't be done and won't be done. It's one set per household, per AP. Of course, that is assuming you can get the AP to sell to the real public, which reality has shown is doubtful. Hopefully a few more of the APs will open up next week... >>
Hey, he did put the magical dancing smiley on the post!!!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Apparently, the APs are cross-referencing names. I predicted this last week and was told I was dreaming. This is probably what the delay is all about, and is most likely why Dillon Gage is calling people and asking them for their addresses. They simply won't call back the people who already purchased from Apmex.
So now we know. The APs were probably told to stagger their sales, one AP at a time, so that one AP sells and forwards the list to the next AP for comparison, and then that AP sells. Pretty crude but effective. Again, Fidelitrade, because they are only allowing the purchase of 1 coin, could screw things up for people by not allowing them to buy from an additional AP in order to get the other 4 coins in the set, if they buy from Fidelitrade first. So buyer beware.
I think that it boils down to the fact that the APs are basically giving away thousands of dollars by selling the sets at 900.00. There is never a free lunch, so I doubt that there is any way that anyone is going to easily get a set who isn't connected, unless they already got them from Apmex.
<<<< They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
<<I call total BS on this. Nothing says the APs must share lists. How are they going to do real-time updates? Can't be done and won't be done. It's one set per household, per AP. Of course, that is assuming you can get the AP to sell to the real public, which reality has shown is doubtful. Hopefully a few more of the APs will open up next week... >>
<< <i>Apparently, the APs are cross-referencing names. ...This is probably what the delay is all about, and is most likely why Dillon Gage is calling people and asking them for their addresses. They simply won't call back the people who already purchased from Apmex. >>
Yeah, I agree, circumstantial evidence points to there is / may be some attempt and effort by responsible APs to cross reference the one per HH requirement.
<< <i>... so that one AP sells and forwards the list to the next AP for comparison, and then that AP sells. Pretty crude but effective. >>
Yep, maybe, we'll see...
<< <i>Again, Fidelitrade, because they are only allowing the purchase of 1 coin >>
Nope.
I talked to F-trade Linda Tues, $927 per set. At the rate this stupid puck sale is going that will probably change. Who knows?
<< <i>could screw things up for people by not allowing them to buy from an additional AP in order to get the other 4 coins in the set, if they buy from Fidelitrade first. So buyer beware. >>
This thing screwed up?
C'mon, you're pulling my lariat.
People excluded from buying another set of pucks because they are on another AP list? Surely you jest. That could not possibly happen.
We havent talked about the possibility of cross referencing names.
It could very well happen.
Other AP's have spoken about requiring DL's for proof of address.
These guys are staggering sales. We will know very soon. The first guy who already bought from APMEX who secures another set somewhere else has broken thru. If he is turned away, then we will know.
Do we have any information from the original APMEX buyers? Did they require any proof of residence beyond your account at APMEX?
It's interesting - there are several who bought from APMEX.....
did they require any other proof? Copy of a DL, SS#?
Considering they have to comply with selling to the "American Public" -----who says a buyer isnt a foreign national? if they didnt check, they are in non compliance....correct?
Buying these was like buying any other stuff from APMEX but I think their privacy policy does not allow the sharing of who ordered these, not that it matters.
<< <i>It's interesting - there are several who bought from APMEX.....
did they require any other proof? Copy of a DL, SS#?
Considering they have to comply with selling to the "American Public" -----who says a buyer isnt a foreign national? if they didnt check, they are in non compliance....correct? >>
Don't know about Apmex practices, I'm only on alert for ATBs, I've never bought from Apmex before.
I do know F-trade told me that I would have to fill out a form and respond. I expect that would include a SSN. Also a promise that I have not bought a set of pucks from another AP.
<< <i>are they definitely going to sell them monday morning, or is this just more internet rumor ? >>
From what i was told monday 10 am and they want you to bring a picture id .They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
I call BS. APMEX is not authorized to share data like that.
<< <i>It's interesting - there are several who bought from APMEX.....
did they require any other proof? Copy of a DL, SS#?
Considering they have to comply with selling to the "American Public" -----who says a buyer isnt a foreign national? if they didnt check, they are in non compliance....correct? >>
Don't know about Apmex practices, I'm only on alert for ATBs, I've never bought from Apmex before.
I do know F-trade told me that I would have to fill out a form and respond. I expect that would include a SSN. Also a promise that I have not bought a set of pucks from another AP.
But who knows.
The lack of info only leads to speculation. >>
The form is probably an account application. This was way back before the mint's d-day release even, and I can't recall everything I gave to MTB, but I know it included a scanned image of my driver's license. It was all part of their normal account operations. (anti-money laundering things, and such)
Boy, their marketing departments are going to be busy in the future.
<< <i>The cluster didn't begin until December 3rd, when APMEX put 1000 coins up for sale to the public. The Mint suspended sales on December 6th. Had they decided to sell them on their website, they would have had to set a price, obtain packaging and shipping containers AND get the coins out the door in 17 working days. That is assuming an AP doesn't have a judge issue a restraining order forcing the Mint to suspend sales until they convince the judge they have the legal authority to sell bullion to the public. Just because an in-house lawyer says something is legal does not mean a Federal judge will agree with them. >>
acutally before that with Monaco tentaively selling them at $975, then upping the price, and then upping it again to $1500. This was before APMEX.
Actually, they only had to sell them by the end of the year, not ship them. Maybe the chance they couldn't sell them all in time was the reason they stuck with the AP method. They are technically all sold now.
Well guys take this info for what is worth but a fellow on the Kitco forum has posted the following:
Yes they did. From talking with my dealer (who has dealt with most of the AP's at on etime or another) told me the Gold Center in Springfield is at the core of this problem. Supposedly they were able to attain 9000 sets at the mint price and then started buying up the rest from other Ap's. It was suggested that we email our senators to investigate this price gouging.
Can it possibly be true that one AP bought the other APs allotment due to the lack of a distribution method on their part, which they could then sell to the TV hulksters at a hefty price. This is turning into the twilight zone
It all just comes down to names and addresses. A previous post said HSN had 4500 employees and I said how would the y have paid, shipped, received, sent for grading and received them back all in a couple of weeks
Well, duh, all they need are the names and addresses of those willing employees given to a willing AP and THAT will be "selling to the public" even though those people never touched the coins. I am sure this is what the delay is.... just a gathering a names to comply with this requirement.
They will leave a hundred or so sets for an announced sale that will sell out in 30 min. Done deal.....sold to the public...made a MUCH better profit from the HSN types and the secondary sellers are happy. The REAL public is screwed and the AP's are sitting back with a big grin saying "That's what you get when you mandate what we can charge for our product"...
Question is.....who in their right mind will pay multi thousands for this set in the aftermarket??
I don't think there is any comparison of lists between AP's needed 'cuz there won't be very many available anyway.....already sold 90-95% to the Big Boys
<< <i>Supposedly they were able to attain 9000 sets at the mint price and then started buying up the rest from other Ap's. It was suggested that we email our senators to investigate this price gouging. >>
We know that one AP acquiring 9000 sets direct is not possible. Initial allocations were 3300 sets each, two AP's decided not to participate, leaving 6600 sets to be allocated over the "participating" AP's.
Assuming they split the last 6600 evenly, each of them approx had 4000 sets each.
Nowhere near 9000.
It is possible that one AP sold their allotment to another AP, for the 10% markup, then the next AP will need to comply with the one per HH criteria - who knows?
Off to the annual New Year's party and a few computer free hours.
We have thousands of troops in harms' way tonight in remote and hostile areas, thousands of miles from family, defending our great nation and our freedom.
Those of us who are healthy and prosperous (i.e., anyone who's even thinking about buying the pucks) should give thanks for our good fortune and keep those less fortunate in our thoughts and prayers.
In the end, they're coins, stuff, whatever - fun to write about, want and debate.
They're most definitely not the important stuff.
As the year concludes and another begins anew, I wish all of you and yours a safe, happy and healthy new year.
Please keep our troops, law enforcement officers and first responders in your thoughts as they stand watch and stand ready to protect you and yours.
Happy New Year and may G-d bless you all.
R- >>
So true. Thanks Raufus, Happy New Year To you and yours and all forum members!! Im sitting here nursing a hangover and wondering why it is raining in Pittsburgh and messing up the Winter Classic.
I think the APs are calling the mints bluff. There are only 11 APs. Do you think the mint will screw with their distribution of all future bullion. Probably unlikely. They will let the APs do what they want. In the interest of PR, the mint will pretend they care.
If you go to the HSN site, you can play the video of HSN selling the coins. In the video, the salesperson says that he just walked in to one of the APs and bought hundreds of sets. He didn't say that he presented the AP with a list of names to justify the purchase. So, if true, the AP gave hundreds of sets to 1 purchaser.
<< <i>Supposedly they were able to attain 9000 sets at the mint price and then started buying up the rest from other Ap's. It was suggested that we email our senators to investigate this price gouging. >>
We know that one AP acquiring 9000 sets direct is not possible. Initial allocations were 3300 sets each, two AP's decided not to participate, leaving 6600 sets to be allocated over the "participating" AP's.
Assuming they split the last 6600 evenly, each of them approx had 4000 sets each.
Nowhere near 9000.
It is possible that one AP sold their allotment to another AP, for the 10% markup, then the next AP will need to comply with the one per HH criteria - who knows? >>
Having computer trouble this morning, so will answer in stages and just keep editing.
The original allortment was 3,000 sets each per 11 AP's.
Nine of the AP's participated in the first allotment, leaving 6,000 sets.
The 6,000 sets were supposed to be divided up among the nine participating AP's, to be equally divided by the number of participants in the bonus round.
(edited to add): If eight of the nine AP's in the bonus round passed, then the 6,000 sets would all go to the one AP that participated. Thus, it is possible that one AP could legally GET 9,000 sets.
One might wonder why the other eight AP's would pass on the bonus round. Here is an idle speculation:
Perhaps they were offered a share in the profits by the party that did purchase the 6,000 sets. They could thus share in the windfall profits while remaining clean in the eyes of the Mint as far as the 6,000 sets are concerned, since they never touched the coins. All they have to do is sell their original 3,000 sets righteously.
(further edited to add): Additional idle speculation: The party that now controlled 9,000 sets could make a bloody fortune selling them through the telemarketers, even after kicking back part of the profits to the other eight AP's (if indeed that is what has happened/will happen). The party in question could then afford to give up its AP status with the Mint, either for a few years until things cool down or forever, if that is what transpires.
(last edit): All of this is mere speculation on my part. I may be wrong. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Last night on hsn Mike and the fatman were selling these five pieces in anacs69 for $4799. They had 210 sets for sale. How can that be? >>
That's why I said almost all of these sets are already sold....gone....all the "boys" have them by the hundreds.
It's kinda funny thinking back of the comments that the prices will plummet when "all these sets hit the market"
Ain't gonna happen.......
....still say $1395 was a good price >>
Good point...that price of $1395 is now looking to be a good price. Now the question is after all the excitement and frenzy... are there enough collectors to buy all 33K sets out there at say... just for example at $5000/per set since the "big boys" control the price? Or could you use that 5K to buy something else numismatically speaking what coin would you buy instead
I just wanted to thank all the brave phone callers and internet heroes that were protecting me buy doing their civic duty when they lock hands and form a line at the Gold Center Monday. After all, this is where the "people" will be and I'm sure they will all be anxious to give their thanks in person for all the help.
It's time to call the Mint on Monday and complain loudly. The evidence of deceit is overwhelming. Mint needs to suspend all sales and perform an audit of each AP to find the guilty parties.
Comments
<< <i>The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
I have visited it several times and bought numismatic gold there numerous times. From what I have read on various threads, bullion sales must go through the AP's
<< <i>
<< <i>And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized
dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing
bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing
bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director
of the National Park Service, or the designee of the
Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under
this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than
1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's
designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items
as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
Anybody want to stand outside their door and count customers until the "SOLD OUT" notice is given????
TD
<< <i>I'm still giving 9:20 A.M. as the over/under for The Gold Center's sellout time.
Anybody want to stand outside their door and count customers until the "SOLD OUT" notice is given????
TD >>
I'll do it. Little worried about the cold, but probably won't need to use both hands, so I can keep one in my mitten...
<< And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized
dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing
bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing
bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director
of the National Park Service, or the designee of the
Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under
this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than
1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's
designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items
as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
-------------------------
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Edited: Friday December 31, 2010 at 6:14 PM by OPA
I was under the same impression - that the auth. legislation specified that only APs could sell the bullion version.
That said, I was told personally by the ATB Program Director that, on the Monday that they halted sales, selling directly and not via the APs was considered AND was deemed legal by The Mint's legal dept. Those who advocated this were overruled (talk about a HUGE mistake). Nonetheless, he was very clear that this was an option.
<< <i><<
<< And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized
dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing
bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing
bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director
of the National Park Service, or the designee of the
Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under
this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than
1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's
designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items
as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
-------------------------
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Edited: Friday December 31, 2010 at 6:14 PM by OPA
I was under the same impression - that the auth. legislation specified that only APs could sell the bullion version.
That said, I was told personally by the ATB Program Director that, on the Monday that they halted sales, selling directly and not via the APs was considered AND was deemed legal by The Mint's legal dept. Those who advocated this were overruled (talk about a HUGE mistake). Nonetheless, he was very clear that this was an option. >>
But under who's authority...Congress sure didn't give it to them
<< <i>are they definitely going to sell them monday morning, or is this just more internet rumor ? >>
From what i was told monday 10 am and they want you to bring a picture id .They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>
<< <i><<
<< And when APMEX cut their order to 400 and all other AP's said 'No Thanks', the Mint has 13 working days to get all the remaining pucks sold. How? Legally can't sell them direct to the public, so they are melted and 400 people that had bought from APMEX would be paying off their mortgages. >>
The have a little website online - have you ever visited it?
They could have sold them DIRECT. They were not bound to only selling through AP's. The option was considered. Didnt you see my earlier post? >>
On what page is your post that indicates the Mint is authorized to sell the bullion version directly to the public? I'm still under the impression, perhaps wrong, that congress did not give them that authority, same as the bullion ASE's, AGE's & APE's...
The way I read the legislation that covers the bullion pucks...the only ones authorized are the AP's & National Parks
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized
dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing
bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing
bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director
of the National Park Service, or the designee of the
Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under
this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than
1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's
designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items
as the Director determines to be appropriate.
ubl456.110">Public Law 456.110
-------------------------
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Edited: Friday December 31, 2010 at 6:14 PM by OPA
I was under the same impression - that the auth. legislation specified that only APs could sell the bullion version.
That said, I was told personally by the ATB Program Director that, on the Monday that they halted sales, selling directly and not via the APs was considered AND was deemed legal by The Mint's legal dept. Those who advocated this were overruled (talk about a HUGE mistake). Nonetheless, he was very clear that this was an option. >>
But under who's authority...Congress sure didn't give it to them >>
An excellent question. I was at work and short on time. I did not have the Auth. Legis. in front of me.
I told him that not just I, but many members of a large coin forum, were under the same impression (that the APs were the legislated sellers). He very clearly insisted that The Mint's legal dept. had definitively told them that The Mint could sell the bullion issue.
It is incredible to me that, knowing what a cluster the AP arrangement was, and that this was PRIOR to ANY pucks being shipped, that The Mint did not decide to sell direct.
Nonetheless, this is what I was very clearly told, straight from the horse's mouth.
Guys - think a little. You get too hung up on the legal mumbo jumbo.......
Think of how you classify a bullion issue with a low mintage.....
It's easy to reclassify it as a numismatic coin based on it's limited mintage,
Numismatic coins can be sold direct via the USM.
Whether that was the angle or not, they definitely had the choice. They discussed it - from what I was told. Again, they "came down" hard on these guys (AP's) and wanted to give them the chance to do the right thing.
Clearly, they haven't.
Clearly, the USM has made a mistake.
With the mounting evidence in front of them, they should use their "audit" provision of the agreement to visit all 9 AP's to determine who is inline with the agreement. One or more of them must have released 100's of sets or more to the TV guys.
It is not too late to make a change. The USM should demand that the AP's put these on sale immediately.
Even if that many are released.
That AP is one that from th beginning didnt want to sell ANY sets. The said that to me on the phone at least twice. "We dont have to sell ANY".
BS.
No way a Federal judge is gonna get involved.
Good luck with that. If the USM decided to go DIRECT sales, it would be in collectors hands before ANY decision in ANY courtroom took place.
<< <i>From what i was told monday 10 am and they want you to bring a picture id .They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list.
Uh-oh.
I'm on Apmex alert and Dillon Gage + Fidelitrade lists.
The way this FUBAR puck thing is going, my name + address on another's APs list will deny me.
Off to the annual New Year's party and a few computer free hours.
We have thousands of troops in harms' way tonight in remote and hostile areas, thousands of miles from family, defending our great nation and our freedom.
Those of us who are healthy and prosperous (i.e., anyone who's even thinking about buying the pucks) should give thanks for our good fortune and keep those less fortunate in our thoughts and prayers.
In the end, they're coins, stuff, whatever - fun to write about, want and debate.
They're most definitely not the important stuff.
As the year concludes and another begins anew, I wish all of you and yours a safe, happy and healthy new year.
Please keep our troops, law enforcement officers and first responders in your thoughts as they stand watch and stand ready to protect you and yours.
Happy New Year and may G-d bless you all.
R-
<< <i>They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
I call total BS on this. Nothing says the APs must share lists. How are they going to do real-time updates? Can't be done and won't be done. It's one set per household, per AP. Of course, that is assuming you can get the AP to sell to the real public, which reality has shown is doubtful. Hopefully a few more of the APs will open up next week...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>OK taxmad.
No way a Federal judge is gonna get involved.
Good luck with that. If the USM decided to go DIRECT sales, it would be in collectors hands before ANY decision in ANY courtroom took place. >>
We have Federal judges getting involved in every aspect of daily live these days. The AP would argue they would be irreparable harmed if the Mint proceeds and that the Mint Director's decision to classify these numismatic was both arbitrary and capricious. There are a lot of Federal judges out there, and I am sure the attorneys for the AP's have a good idea which one would they would file in.
Edit: ``(2) Availability for sale.--Bullion coins minted under
paragraph (1)--
``(A) shall become available for sale no sooner than
the first day of the calendar year in which the
circulating quarter dollar of which such bullion coin is
a duplicate is issued; and
``(B) may only be available for sale during the year
in which such circulating quarter dollar is issued.
``(3) Distribution.--
``(A) In general.--In addition to the authorized
dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing
bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing
bullion coins issued under this subsection, the Director
of the National Park Service, or the designee of the
Director, may purchase numismatic items issued under
this subsection, but only in units of no fewer than
1,000 at a time, and the Director, or the Director's
designee, may resell or repackage such numismatic items
as the Director determines to be appropriate.
The law states 'in addition' to the authorized dealers, so any attempt to exclude them from dealing with these coins would result in legal jeopardy for the Mint.
<< <i> Please keep our troops, law enforcement officers and first responders in your thoughts as they stand watch and stand ready to protect you and yours.
Happy New Year and may G-d bless you all.
R- >>
and to you Raufus
<< <i>
<< <i>They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
I call total BS on this. Nothing says the APs must share lists. How are they going to do real-time updates? Can't be done and won't be done. It's one set per household, per AP. Of course, that is assuming you can get the AP to sell to the real public, which reality has shown is doubtful. Hopefully a few more of the APs will open up next week... >>
Hey, he did put the magical dancing smiley on the post!!!
So now we know. The APs were probably told to stagger their sales, one AP at a time, so that one AP sells and forwards the list to the next AP for comparison, and then that AP sells. Pretty crude but effective.
Again, Fidelitrade, because they are only allowing the purchase of 1 coin, could screw things up for people by not allowing them to buy from an additional AP in order to get the other 4 coins in the set, if they buy from Fidelitrade first. So buyer beware.
I think that it boils down to the fact that the APs are basically giving away thousands of dollars by selling the sets at 900.00. There is never a free lunch, so I doubt that there is any way that anyone is going to easily get a set who isn't connected, unless they already got them from Apmex.
<<<< They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list. >>
<<I call total BS on this. Nothing says the APs must share lists. How are they going to do real-time updates? Can't be done and won't be done. It's one set per household, per AP. Of course, that is assuming you can get the AP to sell to the real public, which reality has shown is doubtful. Hopefully a few more of the APs will open up next week... >>
<< <i>Apparently, the APs are cross-referencing names. ...This is probably what the delay is all about, and is most likely why Dillon Gage is calling people and asking them for their addresses. They simply won't call back the people who already purchased from Apmex. >>
Yeah, I agree, circumstantial evidence points to there is / may be some attempt and effort by responsible APs to cross reference the one per HH requirement.
<< <i>... so that one AP sells and forwards the list to the next AP for comparison, and then that AP sells. Pretty crude but effective. >>
Yep, maybe, we'll see...
<< <i>Again, Fidelitrade, because they are only allowing the purchase of 1 coin >>
Nope.
I talked to F-trade Linda Tues, $927 per set. At the rate this stupid puck sale is going that will probably change. Who knows?
<< <i>could screw things up for people by not allowing them to buy from an additional AP in order to get the other 4 coins in the set, if they buy from Fidelitrade first. So buyer beware. >>
This thing screwed up?
C'mon, you're pulling my lariat.
People excluded from buying another set of pucks because they are on another AP list? Surely you jest. That could not possibly happen.
Happy New Year!
It could very well happen.
Other AP's have spoken about requiring DL's for proof of address.
These guys are staggering sales. We will know very soon. The first guy who already bought from APMEX who secures another set somewhere else has broken thru. If he is turned away, then we will know.
Do we have any information from the original APMEX buyers? Did they require any proof of residence beyond your account at APMEX?
<< <i>We havent talked about the possibility of cross referencing names. >>
Names? Think SSN.
did they require any other proof? Copy of a DL, SS#?
Considering they have to comply with selling to the "American Public" -----who says a buyer isnt a foreign national? if they didnt check, they are in non compliance....correct?
<< <i>It's interesting - there are several who bought from APMEX.....
did they require any other proof? Copy of a DL, SS#?
Considering they have to comply with selling to the "American Public" -----who says a buyer isnt a foreign national? if they didnt check, they are in non compliance....correct? >>
Don't know about Apmex practices, I'm only on alert for ATBs, I've never bought from Apmex before.
I do know F-trade told me that I would have to fill out a form and respond. I expect that would include a SSN. Also a promise that I have not bought a set of pucks from another AP.
But who knows.
The lack of info only leads to speculation.
<< <i>Buying these was like buying any other stuff from APMEX >>
Yup..no additional info was required...Name & address + payment method.
<< <i>
<< <i>are they definitely going to sell them monday morning, or is this just more internet rumor ? >>
From what i was told monday 10 am and they want you to bring a picture id .They have gotten the list from ampex and will be watching for any names already on the list.
I call BS. APMEX is not authorized to share data like that.
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>
<< <i>It's interesting - there are several who bought from APMEX.....
did they require any other proof? Copy of a DL, SS#?
Considering they have to comply with selling to the "American Public" -----who says a buyer isnt a foreign national? if they didnt check, they are in non compliance....correct? >>
Don't know about Apmex practices, I'm only on alert for ATBs, I've never bought from Apmex before.
I do know F-trade told me that I would have to fill out a form and respond. I expect that would include a SSN. Also a promise that I have not bought a set of pucks from another AP.
But who knows.
The lack of info only leads to speculation. >>
The form is probably an account application. This was way back before the mint's d-day release even, and I can't recall everything I gave to MTB, but I know it included a scanned image of my driver's license. It was all part of their normal account operations. (anti-money laundering things, and such)
Boy, their marketing departments are going to be busy in the future.
<< <i>The cluster didn't begin until December 3rd, when APMEX put 1000 coins up for sale to the public. The Mint suspended sales on December 6th. Had they decided to sell them on their website, they would have had to set a price, obtain packaging and shipping containers AND get the coins out the door in 17 working days. That is assuming an AP doesn't have a judge issue a restraining order forcing the Mint to suspend sales until they convince the judge they have the legal authority to sell bullion to the public. Just because an in-house lawyer says something is legal does not mean a Federal judge will agree with them. >>
acutally before that with Monaco tentaively selling them at $975, then upping the price, and then upping it again to $1500. This was before APMEX.
Actually, they only had to sell them by the end of the year, not ship them. Maybe the chance they couldn't sell them all in time was the reason they stuck with the AP method. They are technically all sold now.
Best of Luck in acquiring a set of the America The Beautiful 5 ouncers at a reasonable price.
Yes they did. From talking with my dealer (who has dealt with most of the AP's at on etime or another) told me the Gold Center in Springfield is at the core of this problem. Supposedly they were able to attain 9000 sets at the mint price and then started buying up the rest from other Ap's. It was suggested that we email our senators to investigate this price gouging.
Can it possibly be true that one AP bought the other APs allotment due to the lack of a distribution method on their part, which they could then sell to the TV hulksters at a hefty price. This is turning into the twilight zone
Well, duh, all they need are the names and addresses of those willing employees given to a willing AP and THAT will be "selling to the public" even though those people never touched the coins. I am sure this is what the delay is.... just a gathering a names to comply with this requirement.
They will leave a hundred or so sets for an announced sale that will sell out in 30 min. Done deal.....sold to the public...made a MUCH better profit from the HSN types and the secondary sellers are happy. The REAL public is screwed and the AP's are sitting back with a big grin saying "That's what you get when you mandate what we can charge for our product"...
Question is.....who in their right mind will pay multi thousands for this set in the aftermarket??
I don't think there is any comparison of lists between AP's needed 'cuz there won't be very many available anyway.....already sold 90-95% to the Big Boys
Edited to add: Happy New Year to all
Negative feedback rating:
Seller declined to proceed with the transaction and didn't deliver. NOT RELIABLE Buyer:
Dec-15-10 14:13
2010 5 oz America the Beautiful SILVER 5 coin set (#220707590616)
Negative feedback rating :
This seller cancelled sale of purchased item -- Terrible Seller --Avoid !!!!!
Dec-18-10 17:22
2010 5 oz America the Beautiful SILVER 5 coin set (#320627549016)
<< <i>Supposedly they were able to attain 9000 sets at the mint price and then started buying up the rest from other Ap's. It was suggested that we email our senators to investigate this price gouging. >>
We know that one AP acquiring 9000 sets direct is not possible. Initial allocations were 3300 sets each, two AP's decided not to participate, leaving 6600 sets to be allocated over the "participating" AP's.
Assuming they split the last 6600 evenly, each of them approx had 4000 sets each.
Nowhere near 9000.
It is possible that one AP sold their allotment to another AP, for the 10% markup, then the next AP will need to comply with the one per HH criteria - who knows?
<< <i>To all the puckies -
Off to the annual New Year's party and a few computer free hours.
We have thousands of troops in harms' way tonight in remote and hostile areas, thousands of miles from family, defending our great nation and our freedom.
Those of us who are healthy and prosperous (i.e., anyone who's even thinking about buying the pucks) should give thanks for our good fortune and keep those less fortunate in our thoughts and prayers.
In the end, they're coins, stuff, whatever - fun to write about, want and debate.
They're most definitely not the important stuff.
As the year concludes and another begins anew, I wish all of you and yours a safe, happy and healthy new year.
Please keep our troops, law enforcement officers and first responders in your thoughts as they stand watch and stand ready to protect you and yours.
Happy New Year and may G-d bless you all.
R- >>
So true. Thanks Raufus, Happy New Year To you and yours and all forum members!! Im sitting here nursing a hangover and wondering why it is raining in Pittsburgh and messing up the Winter Classic.
Box of 20
If you go to the HSN site, you can play the video of HSN selling the coins. In the video, the salesperson says that he just walked in to one of the APs and bought hundreds of sets. He didn't say that he presented the AP with a list of names to justify the purchase. So, if true, the AP gave hundreds of sets to 1 purchaser.
http://www.hsn.com/collectibles/2010-set-of-5-ms69-le-fdoi-national-parks-coin-set_p-6317345_xp.aspx?webm_id=6317345&web_id=6317345&ocm=sekw|items_recently_aired&cm_re=merchzone_carousel*page1_spot3_image*merchzones&o=search-RI&cm_sp=Recommended*Search*top
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>Last night on hsn Mike and the fatman were selling these five pieces in anacs69 for $4799. They had 210 sets for sale. How can that be? >>
That's why I said almost all of these sets are already sold....gone....all the "boys" have them by the hundreds.
It's kinda funny thinking back of the comments that the prices will plummet when "all these sets hit the market"
Ain't gonna happen.......
....still say $1395 was a good price
<< <i>
<< <i>Supposedly they were able to attain 9000 sets at the mint price and then started buying up the rest from other Ap's. It was suggested that we email our senators to investigate this price gouging. >>
We know that one AP acquiring 9000 sets direct is not possible. Initial allocations were 3300 sets each, two AP's decided not to participate, leaving 6600 sets to be allocated over the "participating" AP's.
Assuming they split the last 6600 evenly, each of them approx had 4000 sets each.
Nowhere near 9000.
It is possible that one AP sold their allotment to another AP, for the 10% markup, then the next AP will need to comply with the one per HH criteria - who knows? >>
Having computer trouble this morning, so will answer in stages and just keep editing.
The original allortment was 3,000 sets each per 11 AP's.
Nine of the AP's participated in the first allotment, leaving 6,000 sets.
The 6,000 sets were supposed to be divided up among the nine participating AP's, to be equally divided by the number of participants in the bonus round.
(edited to add):
If eight of the nine AP's in the bonus round passed, then the 6,000 sets would all go to the one AP that participated. Thus, it is possible that one AP could legally GET 9,000 sets.
One might wonder why the other eight AP's would pass on the bonus round. Here is an idle speculation:
Perhaps they were offered a share in the profits by the party that did purchase the 6,000 sets. They could thus share in the windfall profits while remaining clean in the eyes of the Mint as far as the 6,000 sets are concerned, since they never touched the coins. All they have to do is sell their original 3,000 sets righteously.
(further edited to add):
Additional idle speculation: The party that now controlled 9,000 sets could make a bloody fortune selling them through the telemarketers, even after kicking back part of the profits to the other eight AP's (if indeed that is what has happened/will happen). The party in question could then afford to give up its AP status with the Mint, either for a few years until things cool down or forever, if that is what transpires.
(last edit):
All of this is mere speculation on my part. I may be wrong.
TD
$2998 didn't sell
<< <i>
<< <i>Last night on hsn Mike and the fatman were selling these five pieces in anacs69 for $4799. They had 210 sets for sale. How can that be? >>
That's why I said almost all of these sets are already sold....gone....all the "boys" have them by the hundreds.
It's kinda funny thinking back of the comments that the prices will plummet when "all these sets hit the market"
Ain't gonna happen.......
....still say $1395 was a good price >>
Good point...that price of $1395 is now looking to be a good price. Now the question is after all the excitement and frenzy... are there enough collectors to buy all 33K sets out there at say... just for example at $5000/per set since the "big boys" control the price? Or could you use that 5K to buy something else numismatically speaking what coin would you buy instead
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny