Monster boxes of all Mint bullion s/b available to all at the same price. After all, we all own the Mint (US Treasury) as we get to support it though our taxes.
the APs are required by the Mint to both buy from and sell to the public.
the AP network is a Mint created Mint bullion market.
This is why the Mint does not sell bullion directly to the public. 1. it would be unfair competition, since they are the sole producer and can probably beat the cost on the APs. 2. if the Mint were to buy and sell, it would mean the government runs the market (more than it already does).
how would you feel if NASDAQ and NYSE were run by the SEC ?
<< <i>the APs are required by the Mint to both buy from and sell to the public.
the AP network is a Mint created Mint bullion market.
This is why the Mint does not sell bullion directly to the public. 1. it would be unfair competition, since they are the sole producer and can probably beat the cost on the APs. 2. if the Mint were to buy and sell, it would mean the government runs the market (more than it already does).
how would you feel if NASDAQ and NYSE were run by the SEC ? >>
Yeah, I know, the AP system is created by the mint. And I don't disagree with any of your points, i.e., it's mint created, would be unfair competition and the mint buying / selling bullion under the current AP system would be a conflict of interest.
Point is this -
The mint should get rid of the AP system, sell bullion to the public at a rate lesser than charged to the public for numismatic items, but more per unit than charged to the APs due to volume / amount of $$$ per order, etc.
Just because the bullion distribution system via a few select APs is the way it is, doesn't make it right. It's wrong. The whole thing is wrong.
Keep arguing / presenting the current system as some system to continue.
The Mint selling bullion direct to the public at a lesser rate than numismatics, but greater than charged to the AP for reasons already cited is OK with me.
<< <i>how would you feel if NASDAQ and NYSE were run by the SEC ? >>
The SEC is an oversight organization. They do not produce a product for resale.
Maybe the Mint needs to be an oversight organization and because they are giving a few monopolies, they should enforce a percentage markup. Yes, it is unfair to give a few unfair competition from others.
I'm thinking if the Mint had just made a proof version, the public could buy direct from the Mint and decide to grade (or not). The dependence on AP's to put them on the market and hope for a decent price is making me rethink collecting these at all.
All the money in the world won't allow you buy sealed monster boxes direct from the Mint.
You'll have to buy them from an AP. At a premium.
And therein lies the rub as Shakespeare or someone once wrote.
Srsly. What a joke, the distribution of bullion via the AP system is crazy. >>
And do you also complain that you can't buy a new Ford/GM/Toyota/Name-Your-Brand direct from the company and that you have to go through your local high pressure/high mark-up car dealer? Same thing. That's how these things are sold. Get over it.
All the money in the world won't allow you buy sealed monster boxes direct from the Mint.
You'll have to buy them from an AP. At a premium.
And therein lies the rub as Shakespeare or someone once wrote.
Srsly. What a joke, the distribution of bullion via the AP system is crazy. >>
And do you also complain that you can't buy a new Ford/GM/Toyota/Name-Your-Brand direct from the company and that you have to go through your local high pressure/high mark-up car dealer? Same thing. That's how these things are sold. Get over it. >>
Hhhmmm. This must be one of those rhetorical questions, followed by an answer and what I should do about it.
<< <i>Back in March of 2011, posts to this thread celebrated killer private party MS + DMPL grading results from the TPGs.
Now, in mid-Aug 2011, posts to this thread advertise where the best deal from an AP or third part seller for an MS69XX is available ay a premium.
My, how times have changed. Take it for what you want, good, bad or indifferent. It speaks for itself.
Good luck, all. >>
For what it's worth, I agree with you. I joined PCGS and graded some 2010's and they turned out nice. But trying to get 2011's raw, not picked over to grade, just too hard for a novice. And now AP's are trying to gouge, at least it seems. Maybe there's just not the interest that 2010 brought. Thanks for all the good info though. I've learned a lot from some very smart people on this forum.
OK, now I'm filing a WTF are you talking about complaint with WTF are you talking about dept.
Good Lord.
Best 'o Luck. >>
Life is unfair! Period end. WTF is this gibberish. Get over it. This is life. The mint, the APs etc. That is the way it is and will be. Quit whining or get off the bus!
Successful trades/buys/sells with gdavis70, adriana, wondercoin, Weiss, nibanny, IrishMike, commoncents05, pf70collector, kyleknap, barefootjuan, coindeuce, WhiteTornado, Nefprollc, ajw, JamesM, PCcoins, slinc, coindudeonebay,beernuts, and many more
Same here. Who ever springs for buy gets theirs for $250 after eBay bucks or maybe MCM will make us a better deal if they don't have to pay the ebay fees. They still want $500 on their website though distribution costs my eat that up.
Life is unfair! Period end. WTF is this gibberish. Get over it. This is life. The mint, the APs etc. That is the way it is and will be. Quit whining or get off the bus!
It's been awhile since I have dropped into the world of Pucks, and from the tone - it seems that the bullion distribution system is being screwed with again.
The intent of the program and legislation was to make 5 ozers available at roughly the same premiums as for Silver Eagles and other bullion, correct?
If that's not the case, why would anyone support the program?
Collectors will collect, regardless of what the rest will do - but as for me, this investor isn't going to invest when all of the potential is drained out on the front end.
Hey APs. Hey Mint. Go pound sand.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
The APs and their preferred customers might be making a decent profit in the few years of this series with their manipulation and gouging. But long term? The hand that feeds can only be bitten so many times before it finds something else to collect that isn't so much of a pain in the a$$. This is the route I think the ATB 5 oz are going, especially in high grades.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
The APs and their preferred customers might be making a decent profit in the few years of this series with their manipulation and gouging. But long term? The hand that feeds can only be bitten so many times before it finds something else to collect that isn't so much of a pain in the a$$.
Americans are getting pretty good at spotting a Ponzi scheme. After all, we have first-hand experience now. We have Social Security, a world reserve fiat currency called the Dollar; we have the stock market; and now we have: Pucks
Every good Ponzi scheme requires new blood to continue. What are the signs of a Ponzi scheme? Well, for one thing - the ones on top always do best, and the 2nd & 3rd tiers do ok. After that, forget it. Can you find yourself on this chart?
Yeah, scratching my head on this MCM listing for ebay, lots of 10 and 20 for resellers at $350 vs $499 for regular people/collectors who only buy one. Glad I'm done with 2011. Will be rethinking collecting these depending on how it goes forward.
I believe the only real potential is in the first 5 bullion puck graded MS69DMPL as the overall mintage was limited to 33,000 and they are the best looking compared to the frosty P version. The only problem I can see is no one will want to collect the whole series due to cost which will cause it to be a dead horse and may hurt the first 5.
Now, with the second round comming out at over 100,000+ each and if the AP's are required to buy all the mint produces, as indicated above somewhere, I just don't see them as anything more than being something to stack as bullion. This is all subject to grades though. Ten MS69DMPL out of a 100,000+ coins may be a different story.
<< <i>Yeah, scratching my head on this MCM listing for ebay, lots of 10 and 20 for resellers at $350 vs $499 for regular people/collectors who only buy one. Glad I'm done with 2011. Will be rethinking collecting these depending on how it goes forward. >>
Yup, kind of a poke in the eye isn't it. Something tells me thaey have a bunch of them and are trying to blow them out the dor before PCGS updates their Pop. report. Hum, maybe that is why it takes so long for them to update it. Give their dealers a chance to sell excess inventory at a good premium prior to the real numbers come out causing the price to drop.
<< <i>Olympic PCGS 69DM FS pops up to 570....wasn't this at ~380 a few days ago? I wonder what PCGS' procedure is for updating stats...
APMEX appears to have only moved one coin/150 in the last few days @ $539. >>
When I called them, they said one guy was in charge of updating it and it was a manual process. With thousand of coins to update, it takes a long time.
<< <i>Olympic PCGS 69DM FS pops up to 570....wasn't this at ~380 a few days ago? I wonder what PCGS' procedure is for updating stats...
APMEX appears to have only moved one coin/150 in the last few days @ $539. >>
When I called them, they said one guy was in charge of updating it and it was a manual process. With thousand of coins to update, it takes a long time. >>
If there's one thing PCGS could do for the collecting community, it would be something closer to a live update. This shouldn't be hard with today's database systems.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>If there's one thing PCGS could do for the collecting community, it would be live updates. This shouldn't be hard with a good database system. Grade the coins, punch the numbers into the database..... >>
Oh, I am sure the database exists. I can't beleive they use Post-it notes or hand written ledgers to account for the grading populations. Maybe they should spend a little time improving their current services rather than producing other fee based add-ons. Allowing their basic service to go stale is not a good business model.
I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)?
Or they should have a good data backup plan. We backup all of our data daily in addition to running a RAID system for critical daily operations. Still, it would only require a few keystrokes (or set it to automatically update) to update the internet "report" (I am sure it is not a database) nightly. It seems to me what they were telling me is someone manually does in and changes each number on the website report.
It sounded really goofy to me and wasn't worth pursuing with the frontline person who answered the phone.
I think the AP greedy gus' are not satisfied with the millions they make selling bullion and now they want to capture numismatic profits on top. It reminds me of the story of the dog with a bone who saw his reflection on the water and in the process of trying to take the other dog's bone lost his. They could really ruin the interst in these with their actions. I am hoping they lose their bone.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)? >>
It is my understand all of the first 5 (2010) were FS eligible. However, there is a time limit on the 2011.
<< <i>I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)? >>
It is my understand all of the first 5 (2010) were FS eligible. However, there is a time limit on the 2011. >>
Thanks, that was what I thought but did not know if AP's had any advantage with submission timeline (2011) over individuals.
The only advantage they have is they get them first, cherry pick them and can delay sending them until it is to later for us common folk to send them in.
<< <i>Or they should have a good data backup plan. We backup all of our data daily in addition to running a RAID system for critical daily operations. Still, it would only require a few keystrokes (or set it to automatically update) to update the internet "report" (I am sure it is not a database) nightly. It seems to me what they were telling me is someone manually does in and changes each number on the website report.
It sounded really goofy to me and wasn't worth pursuing with the frontline person who answered the phone. >>
I wouldn't necessarily think I'm right, but that story sounds so low tech I would trust it less than my guess.
You are talking to a CS rep and not a database person. They may have just been giving you their guess.
<< <i>I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)? >>
It is my understand all of the first 5 (2010) were FS eligible. However, there is a time limit on the 2011. >>
Thanks, that was what I thought but did not know if AP's had any advantage with submission timeline (2011) over individuals. >>
I would hope they have to play by the same rules.
I also note the possibility of submitting a sealed and dated monster box with a ship date before the FS cutoff.
Comments
<< <i>It would be fair if we all had the money to buy as many as they do. >>
No it wouldn't.
All the money in the world won't allow you buy sealed monster boxes direct from the Mint.
You'll have to buy them from an AP. At a premium.
And therein lies the rub as Shakespeare or someone once wrote.
Srsly. What a joke, the distribution of bullion via the AP system is crazy.
the AP network is a Mint created Mint bullion market.
This is why the Mint does not sell bullion directly to the public.
1. it would be unfair competition, since they are the sole producer and can probably beat the cost on the APs.
2. if the Mint were to buy and sell, it would mean the government runs the market (more than it already does).
how would you feel if NASDAQ and NYSE were run by the SEC ?
<< <i>the APs are required by the Mint to both buy from and sell to the public.
the AP network is a Mint created Mint bullion market.
This is why the Mint does not sell bullion directly to the public.
1. it would be unfair competition, since they are the sole producer and can probably beat the cost on the APs.
2. if the Mint were to buy and sell, it would mean the government runs the market (more than it already does).
how would you feel if NASDAQ and NYSE were run by the SEC ? >>
Yeah, I know, the AP system is created by the mint. And I don't disagree with any of your points, i.e., it's mint created, would be unfair competition and the mint buying / selling bullion under the current AP system would be a conflict of interest.
Point is this -
The mint should get rid of the AP system, sell bullion to the public at a rate lesser than charged to the public for numismatic items, but more per unit than charged to the APs due to volume / amount of $$$ per order, etc.
Just because the bullion distribution system via a few select APs is the way it is, doesn't make it right. It's wrong. The whole thing is wrong.
Keep arguing / presenting the current system as some system to continue.
The Mint selling bullion direct to the public at a lesser rate than numismatics, but greater than charged to the AP for reasons already cited is OK with me.
After all, it's just bullion, isn't it?
similar to he NYSE and NASDAQ they are spcialists or market makers -- the buyers of last resort.
who will be the buyers of last resort in your system?
<< <i>how would you feel if NASDAQ and NYSE were run by the SEC ? >>
The SEC is an oversight organization. They do not produce a product for resale.
Maybe the Mint needs to be an oversight organization and because they are giving a few monopolies, they should enforce a percentage markup. Yes, it is unfair to give a few unfair competition from others.
<< <i>and the upside is a guaranteed place that's buying and that s competitive in price to other world bullion.
similar to he NYSE and NASDAQ they are spcialists or market makers -- the buyers of last resort.
who will be the buyers of last resort in your system? >>
OK, now I'm filing a WTF are you talking about complaint with WTF are you talking about dept.
Good Lord.
Best 'o Luck.
the Mint has created a marketplace with the AP program.
there are guaranteed buyers for all Mint bullion: the APs.
if you let the Mint sell bullion direct, who will be the guaranteed buyers in the marketplace?
<< <i>it's a market.
the Mint has created a marketplace with the AP program.
there are guaranteed buyers for all Mint bullion: the APs.
if you let the Mint sell bullion direct, who will be the guaranteed buyers in the marketplace? >>
Thanks for the clarity, MsMorriane.
In answer to your question - there is no guarantee that the APs will buy ALL the US Mint bullion inventory.
Please cite where this condition is true for the APs agreements with the US Mint.
Nor will the the public guarantee sales of all bullion.
Where is that WTF dept? Keep teeing 'em up, I'll keep knocking 'em out of the park, but I'm losing interest fast.
In fact, I'm done + out. Bye.
the Mint makes the AP sell to the public AND buy from the public.
the AP network is a market where the APs are required to buy back from the public.
if you give the Mint the power to sell to the public, then who will be the people who buy back from the public?
<< <i>but that isn't really the point,
the Mint makes the AP sell to the public AND buy from the public.
the AP network is a market where the APs are required to buy back from the public.
if you give the Mint the power to sell to the public, then who will be the people who buy back from the public? >>
I said I was out, but warrants response -
It's the public who will buy back from the public.
where is that WTF dept?
Good Lord.
<< <i>No it wouldn't.
All the money in the world won't allow you buy sealed monster boxes direct from the Mint.
You'll have to buy them from an AP. At a premium.
And therein lies the rub as Shakespeare or someone once wrote.
Srsly. What a joke, the distribution of bullion via the AP system is crazy. >>
And do you also complain that you can't buy a new Ford/GM/Toyota/Name-Your-Brand direct from the company and that you have to go through your local high pressure/high mark-up car dealer? Same thing. That's how these things are sold. Get over it.
<< <i>
<< <i>No it wouldn't.
All the money in the world won't allow you buy sealed monster boxes direct from the Mint.
You'll have to buy them from an AP. At a premium.
And therein lies the rub as Shakespeare or someone once wrote.
Srsly. What a joke, the distribution of bullion via the AP system is crazy. >>
And do you also complain that you can't buy a new Ford/GM/Toyota/Name-Your-Brand direct from the company and that you have to go through your local high pressure/high mark-up car dealer? Same thing. That's how these things are sold. Get over it. >>
Hhhmmm. This must be one of those rhetorical questions, followed by an answer and what I should do about it.
Thanks!
Now, in mid-Aug 2011, posts to this thread advertise where the best deal from an AP or third part seller for an MS69XX is available ay a premium.
My, how times have changed. Take it for what you want, good, bad or indifferent. It speaks for itself.
Good luck, all.
<< <i>Back in March of 2011, posts to this thread celebrated killer private party MS + DMPL grading results from the TPGs.
Now, in mid-Aug 2011, posts to this thread advertise where the best deal from an AP or third part seller for an MS69XX is available ay a premium.
My, how times have changed. Take it for what you want, good, bad or indifferent. It speaks for itself.
Good luck, all. >>
For what it's worth, I agree with you. I joined PCGS and graded some 2010's and they turned out nice. But trying to get 2011's raw, not picked over to grade, just too hard for a novice. And now AP's are trying to gouge, at least it seems. Maybe there's just not the interest that 2010 brought. Thanks for all the good info though. I've learned a lot from some very smart people on this forum.
The problem now is the ap's have ruined the chance for anyone to come up with a high grade coin without buying it from them at their high price.
<< <i>
<< <i>but that isn't really the point,
the Mint makes the AP sell to the public AND buy from the public.
the AP network is a market where the APs are required to buy back from the public.
if you give the Mint the power to sell to the public, then who will be the people who buy back from the public? >>
I said I was out, but warrants response -
It's the public who will buy back from the public.
where is that WTF dept?
Good Lord. >>
possible, but you also have to think on the intermediate size range.
dealers gotta move quantity.
these guys deal in buying quantity.
I'm not sure it'd be so easy to find another dealer wanting to take quantity.
OK, now I'm filing a WTF are you talking about complaint with WTF are you talking about dept.
Good Lord.
Best 'o Luck. >>
Life is unfair!
Period end.
WTF is this gibberish.
Get over it.
This is life. The mint, the APs etc.
That is the way it is and will be.
Quit whining or get off the bus!
The ride down appears to have started on EBAY
for the Olympic DMPL. Buy It Now is $499.00.
(I didn't grade 'cuz I don't like the oversize holders):
With the possibility of getting coins like this at a reasonable price from the AP's gone, I no longer collect them. Period. End of story.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
Not all the people buying these are taking the DMPLs and submitting them.
You just need to shop around.
Olympic
Chickasaw
-Keith
so, put me down for 1 olympic.
18 more?
the jury is still out on the chickasaw.
they have one on the ATB puck program
<< <i>I'm in for one of each at $350. >>
Same here. Who ever springs for buy gets theirs for $250 after eBay bucks or maybe MCM will make us a better deal if they don't have to pay the ebay fees. They still want $500 on their website though distribution costs my eat that up.
Here's a hint, apmex, ebay.
Period end.
WTF is this gibberish.
Get over it.
This is life. The mint, the APs etc.
That is the way it is and will be.
Quit whining or get off the bus!
It's been awhile since I have dropped into the world of Pucks, and from the tone - it seems that the bullion distribution system is being screwed with again.
The intent of the program and legislation was to make 5 ozers available at roughly the same premiums as for Silver Eagles and other bullion, correct?
If that's not the case, why would anyone support the program?
Collectors will collect, regardless of what the rest will do - but as for me, this investor isn't going to invest when all of the potential is drained out on the front end.
Hey APs. Hey Mint. Go pound sand.
I knew it would happen.
Americans are getting pretty good at spotting a Ponzi scheme. After all, we have first-hand experience now. We have Social Security, a world reserve fiat currency called the Dollar; we have the stock market; and now we have: Pucks
Every good Ponzi scheme requires new blood to continue. What are the signs of a Ponzi scheme? Well, for one thing - the ones on top always do best, and the 2nd & 3rd tiers do ok. After that, forget it. Can you find yourself on this chart?
Mint = Tier One;
APs = Tier Two;
Grading Companies = Tier Three;
Dealers = Tier Four;
Collectors/Investors/Speculators = Tier Screwed. Let'em eat cake.
I knew it would happen.
Now, with the second round comming out at over 100,000+ each and if the AP's are required to buy all the mint produces, as indicated above somewhere, I just don't see them as anything more than being something to stack as bullion. This is all subject to grades though. Ten MS69DMPL out of a 100,000+ coins may be a different story.
APMEX appears to have only moved one coin/150 in the last few days @ $539
<< <i>Yeah, scratching my head on this MCM listing for ebay, lots of 10 and 20 for resellers at $350 vs $499 for regular people/collectors who only buy one. Glad I'm done with 2011. Will be rethinking collecting these depending on how it goes forward. >>
Yup, kind of a poke in the eye isn't it. Something tells me thaey have a bunch of them and are trying to blow them out the dor before PCGS updates their Pop. report. Hum, maybe that is why it takes so long for them to update it. Give their dealers a chance to sell excess inventory at a good premium prior to the real numbers come out causing the price to drop.
I am going to continue to pick up one 69 dmpl of each but will not deal with the ap's because of the cost of grading and good coin availability.
<< <i>Olympic PCGS 69DM FS pops up to 570....wasn't this at ~380 a few days ago? I wonder what PCGS' procedure is for updating stats...
APMEX appears to have only moved one coin/150 in the last few days @ $539. >>
When I called them, they said one guy was in charge of updating it and it was a manual process. With thousand of coins to update, it takes a long time.
<< <i>
<< <i>Olympic PCGS 69DM FS pops up to 570....wasn't this at ~380 a few days ago? I wonder what PCGS' procedure is for updating stats...
APMEX appears to have only moved one coin/150 in the last few days @ $539. >>
When I called them, they said one guy was in charge of updating it and it was a manual process. With thousand of coins to update, it takes a long time. >>
If there's one thing PCGS could do for the collecting community, it would be something closer to a live update. This shouldn't be hard with today's database systems.
<< <i>If there's one thing PCGS could do for the collecting community, it would be live updates. This shouldn't be hard with a good database system. Grade the coins, punch the numbers into the database..... >>
Oh, I am sure the database exists. I can't beleive they use Post-it notes or hand written ledgers to account for the grading populations. Maybe they should spend a little time improving their current services rather than producing other fee based add-ons. Allowing their basic service to go stale is not a good business model.
then another that is connected to the internet. If the one that is connected to the internet is hacked, it can be overwritten with the good database.
this would require periodic updates from the one database to the other.
It sounded really goofy to me and wasn't worth pursuing with the frontline person who answered the phone.
<< <i>I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)? >>
It is my understand all of the first 5 (2010) were FS eligible. However, there is a time limit on the 2011.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)? >>
It is my understand all of the first 5 (2010) were FS eligible. However, there is a time limit on the 2011. >>
Thanks, that was what I thought but did not know if AP's had any advantage with submission timeline (2011) over individuals.
<< <i>Or they should have a good data backup plan. We backup all of our data daily in addition to running a RAID system for critical daily operations. Still, it would only require a few keystrokes (or set it to automatically update) to update the internet "report" (I am sure it is not a database) nightly. It seems to me what they were telling me is someone manually does in and changes each number on the website report.
It sounded really goofy to me and wasn't worth pursuing with the frontline person who answered the phone. >>
I wouldn't necessarily think I'm right, but that story sounds so low tech I would trust it less than my guess.
You are talking to a CS rep and not a database person. They may have just been giving you their guess.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a general question about grading and FS. I know if I send in coins and want FS there is a deadline posted. What about AP's? Do they have to meet the same deadline or do they have longer to submit (meaning graded coins can keep coming out, raising pops)? >>
It is my understand all of the first 5 (2010) were FS eligible. However, there is a time limit on the 2011. >>
Thanks, that was what I thought but did not know if AP's had any advantage with submission timeline (2011) over individuals. >>
I would hope they have to play by the same rules.
I also note the possibility of submitting a sealed and dated monster box with a ship date before the FS cutoff.