<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65 Yellowstone - MS68PL Yosemite - MS67DMPL Grand Canyon - MS69PL Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying???? >>
Great.....I have 17 "On the truck for delivery" today.....makes me kinda insecure ........cherry picked but now I have doubts....another hour should tell the story
<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65 Yellowstone - MS68PL Yosemite - MS67DMPL Grand Canyon - MS69PL Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying???? >>
Great.....I have 17 "On the truck for delivery" today.....makes me kinda insecure ........cherry picked but now I have doubts....another hour should tell the story >>
I sent in 12 that were much better than the first 10 I sent months ago. Those had some 68's and 69's. I'm thinking I'm going to be very disappointed. If they are on the truck haven't you already seen the grades online?
<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65 Yellowstone - MS68PL Yosemite - MS67DMPL Grand Canyon - MS69PL Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying???? >>
Great.....I have 17 "On the truck for delivery" today.....makes me kinda insecure ........cherry picked but now I have doubts....another hour should tell the story >>
I sent in 12 that were much better than the first 10 I sent months ago. Those had some 68's and 69's. I'm thinking I'm going to be very disappointed. If they are on the truck haven't you already seen the grades online? >>
Having graded 380 ATB bullion coins in the last 4-5 months, i can tell you that without a doubt in my mind... Grading has gotten a lot tougher. Numbers don't lie. The first couple of batches of coins we sent in, were close to 70% 69's, 27% 68's and only a few 67's and below. (there were no PL, DMPL's at this point...) The next few batches (right when DMPL, PL's were being given...) we were down to about 50% 69's 40% 68's and a good 10% of 67 and lower. The last couple batches sent in... we were down to 42-43% 69's and 67 and below was up to 15-20%
We always cherry picked them before sending them in, and doubt that we changed our criteria significantly, definitely not enough that would cause such large statistical differences.
Aron...thanks for that imput. This does seem to indicate that there may in fact be poor objective correlation with grading on these. Buy the coin not the grade! That has to be distressing to some people (or all of us!). Looks like first in is best, once some magical quoto is hit, management directive or ???, then grades go down. I am interested in more people's take on this but this does seem to be the theme based on recent postings
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My unscientific observation is the same regarding the grades for ATB 5oz coins. I have about 10 waiting and received 2 recently that plain ole shocked me. I've had enough pucks in hand from the beginning to see the difference in grades. I even had one DMPL that now would definitely grade a PL today. The other coin I received was a 67 DMPL that easily, imo, would have been a 68/69 DMPL candidate a couple of months ago. Kind of disappointing looking at my 69DMPL set now.
"Buy the coin - not the holder" is easy enough if you're at a coin show or B&M. Not so easy if you're online. Many of the imperfections that can downgrade a coin are just not that readily apparent with photographs, and especially with photographs through plastic! End result: even more NAD refunds on feebay.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
<< <i>From an article in today's Coin Update News "There were many claims that some AP’s appeared to be violating some of the Mint’s terms for distribution of the coins, such as by cherry picking the best coins for grading and then later re-selling those coins at a premium. The Mint recently announced that there are no grounds for conducting audits of how the AP’s handled the 2010 ATB bullion program. It specifically stated that the AP practice of having the coins graded before selling them was not a violation of the Mint’s terms of sale." And the June 13th issue of Coin World, pg 4, for those that can read the digital version: No Audit >>
The above is very similar to what others have posted before and I previously posted in this thread 5/18/11 - does the Coin update News article author cite a reference link for his source?
Just personally curious. I can't read the link posted. Anyone able to copy and PM the contents of the Coin Update News to me? If so, thanks in advance.
Anyway, here's what I wrote back then -
<Wednesday May 18, 2011 3:45 PM
Talked to the mint guy today for about 40 minutes. Bottom line regarding the mint's position on the saga of the APs + the 2010 pucks is -
If the market conditions changed and evolved after the 10% price control and the one per HH directive issued to the APs in Dec. 2010 came to be as it did, then that's the way it is, it's difficult for the mint to anticipate every twist and turn, that in retrospect, has occurred since the directive.
I'd tell you everything discussed, but it doesn't really matter, once the APs self-certified that the 2010 bullion was sold according to the mint directive, all controls are off the APs for the 2010 bullion. Even if the APs haven't shipped them yet. Re-selling 2010 pucks obtained from other sources is OK. Graded coins is OK.
I was told that the audit of APs was discussed but the legal consul office decided not to.
<< <i>From an article in today's Coin Update News "There were many claims that some AP’s appeared to be violating some of the Mint’s terms for distribution of the coins, such as by cherry picking the best coins for grading and then later re-selling those coins at a premium. The Mint recently announced that there are no grounds for conducting audits of how the AP’s handled the 2010 ATB bullion program. It specifically stated that the AP practice of having the coins graded before selling them was not a violation of the Mint’s terms of sale." And the June 13th issue of Coin World, pg 4, for those that can read the digital version: No Audit >>
The above is very similar to what others have posted before and I previously posted in this thread 5/18/11 - does the Coin update News article author cite a reference link for his source? >>
Because these were released today, I posted them. The Coin Update article was part 2 under his own by line and had today's date. Coin Update News I will make a PDF of the Coin World article and PM you. This is the reporter who was assigned after I emailed the editor and stated in his first email to me "I'm still not really sure what the problem or complaint is, if there is one.". I already knew he wasn't going to be tough. He was going to believe what APMEX and Jack Hunt said, hook, line and sinker. Which you will be gob smacked when you read what APMEX said about the letters on the boxes. An out right lie.
Well, kinda disappointed since these were cherry picked from a group of 25. No clue why or how the 63's are graded as such.....(I make a habit of not looking at the grades online, makes for a Xmas like adventure when they arrive)
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67PL 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS66DM 25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68PL 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63PL
This note is to the U S Mint. I understand your power lunches and your golf outing take up alot of time, and being that you are probally only making 100 grand a year I can see what kind of stress your under. I guess at 54 I should be used to the goverment screwing us all over, these guys just have no commen sense. I will now sell my 3 sets either to ampex or anyone who wants to take the chance on grading. 1100 a set just like ampex is offering. I so looked forward to this series and after spending all the time looking at these AP's (WHICH WAS THE MINTS JOB) And taking the time to supply them with this information has token its toll on me. I am just sick that our own goverment is so blind, and lazy. Gonna cancel all my future orders with these crooks and go back to collecting coins I like. A Blind Donkey could have seen what was going on and yet our great U S Mint Decided to leave there blinders on SHAME ON YOU U.S MINT. Enjoy
I think that for those that feel Apmex and others violated the directives, maybe you need to start calling your state representatives and complain about the issue. Only then will someone take action against these crooks...
<< <i>Well, kinda disappointed since these were cherry picked from a group of 25. No clue why or how the 63's are graded as such.....(I make a habit of not looking at the grades online, makes for a Xmas like adventure when they arrive) >>
Well at least you got a Grand Canyon 69dm. When did you submit these? I can't understand why I'm still waiting since 5-2.
<< <i>Well, kinda disappointed since these were cherry picked from a group of 25. No clue why or how the 63's are graded as such.....(I make a habit of not looking at the grades online, makes for a Xmas like adventure when they arrive)
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67PL 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS66DM 25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68PL 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63PL >>
I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones.
<< <i>Well at least you got a Grand Canyon 69dm. When did you submit these? I can't understand why I'm still waiting since 5-2. >>
It has been taking about a month for me to get grades on my past 3 submissions. You should get results any day now.
<< <i>I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones. >>
If you don't have "the eye" for grading moderns you'll always be surprised with the results...
So I called APMEX Tuesday about my puck set order and the rep was really nice, called down to shipping and was told that my set would ship Tuesday and I'd get a shipping notification Tues night. Well that didn't happen. I still don't know why I'm last to receive my set when I was among the first to order and pay... Anyone else still waiting?
<< <i> I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones >>
The only credibility that a grading company has is its' consistency and fairness. If that is in question then all grades received become a random event and basically pointless.
A 69 DMPL now should have been graded exactly the same 5 months ago and again 5 months from now. Otherwise what is the point of a price guide....
<< <i> I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones >>
The only credibility that a grading company has is its' consistency and fairness. If that is in question then all grades received become a random event and basically pointless.
A 69 DMPL now should have been graded exactly the same 5 months ago and again 5 months from now. Otherwise what is the point of a price guide.... >>
I understand the "learning curve" and the more you see, the better a comparison can be made argument. But I agree 100% about the consistancy issue. A by-product is that the submissions will slow down.
I'm sure PCGS is mindful of this as it makes good business sense to be as fair and consistent as possible. That's what they do and why they are in business.
I have hunderd year old coins that are better than that.
As for MS69's, I wonder if PCGS is treating these like they are supposed to be MS70. LIke any flaw makes them a 68 or lower, when in fact a 69 has a flaw.
<< <i>If you don't have "the eye" for grading moderns you'll always be surprised with the results... >>
I sure wish I had "the eye". I submitted 30 2011 ASE proofs and 85% were PF70. Problem is I think the PUCKS take a different eye and I haven't found a transplant candidate yet.
I have hunderd year old coins that are better than that.
As for MS69's, I wonder if PCGS is treating these like they are supposed to be MS70. LIke any flaw makes them a 68 or lower, when in fact a 69 has a flaw. >>
As soon as a policy adjustment is made that says that there WILL be no MS70 coins from this bullion series that skews the whole grading curve. Of course there will be a few perfect coins and to say otherwise is just not fair to those lucky enough to have them.
So, as you said, a perfect coin then become a 69 and a minor mark drops to 68 etc.
There was the same short lived policy for the ASE's when the spotting issue was discovered. Grading shifted across the street and the policy was changed. Sucks if you were early to the game on that one and sucks with the pucks that ARE perfect.
<< <i> ......................... As soon as a policy adjustment is made that says that there WILL be no MS70 coins from this bullion series that skews the whole grading curve. Of course there will be a few perfect coins and to say otherwise is just not fair to those lucky enough to have them. ......... >>
Really seems as though PCGS is shooting itself in the foot with this one. Bottom line - if you have a perfect bullion coin, either submit to a grading service that will recognize it as such, or keep it raw. Either way, PCGS loses, as does the hobby.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me I sure wish I had kept better track of what was what. These 12 coins came from 3 sets of Jack Hunt and 1 set of Fidelitrade. I have learned some valuable lessons and in the end......the learning will not cost me much if anything as I can still burn and turn and come out all right. I will buy some Grand Canyon 68 DMPL's with the proceeds of some of these sales. Any market for a matched set of 64 pl's?
Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS65PL Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS65DM Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS66PL Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL
<< <i>This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me >>
lightcycler: Did you examine these coins before submitting? The 64 and 65 pieces had to be pretty beat up. Please post some images when they return and sorry about your bad luck.
<< <i>This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me >>
lightcycler: Did you examine these coins before submitting? The 64 and 65 pieces had to be pretty beat up. Please post some images when they return and sorry about your bad luck. >>
i got 1 64 out of 4 sets that i submitted. the obverse has a lot of scrapes on it. the other 19 coins had almost no visible marks and graded 68 and 69 with a couple of 67`s in the mix.
if it graded 64 or 65 you should see some hits or scratches on the coins.
<< <i>This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me >>
lightcycler: Did you examine these coins before submitting? The 64 and 65 pieces had to be pretty beat up. Please post some images when they return and sorry about your bad luck. >>
Fact is I looked at them only with the naked eye. The coins I submitted mid march that got those grades were beat up. I was stupid to get those graded but felt it was the best way to sell them, no buyer beware. These were not. I should have given them an acetone dip for sure. I will take the best pics I can when I get them back. I expected those grades with my first submission. I in no way expected this one. My belief is that die polish was not graded down severley at first but is today.
As far as grading goes etc I"m relatively new to the game. In the end I"m a PM guy dinking in the graded coin game. I buy silver so in the end.....don't really care so much. My 3 sets of B's and one set of D from Apmex kind of beat these all to heck huh? How did they get so many highly graded coins?
<< <i>I can assure you that is my last submission. >>
That's too bad. I am a rookie here also, with less than 3 years of experience submitting coins. It takes a little time to learn the basics but it is not rocket science and can be both fun and profitable. I've struck out a few times and hit a couple home runs. It's been a winner for me overall and I hope to be around for a long time.
<< <i>i got 1 64 out of 4 sets that i submitted. the obverse has a lot of scrapes on it. the other 19 coins had almost no visible marks and graded 68 and 69 with a couple of 67`s in the mix.
if it graded 64 or 65 you should see some hits or scratches on the coins. >>
When was your submission? The ones I submitted were nothing like that. That is what sucks so much. I'll take pics when they come back.
<< <i>i got 1 64 out of 4 sets that i submitted. the obverse has a lot of scrapes on it. the other 19 coins had almost no visible marks and graded 68 and 69 with a couple of 67`s in the mix.
if it graded 64 or 65 you should see some hits or scratches on the coins. >>
When was your submission? The ones I submitted were nothing like that. That is what sucks so much. I'll take pics when they come back. >>
10 coins entered pcgs pipeline on 02/24 and another 10 on 04/21.
here are my grade from today.They were alot better than my grades on the $5 medal of honors.All 13 submitted were 69s.
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69P 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Also got my grades on my 3 amarks I submitted and the GC was also a 69dmpl,yellowstone 68dmpl and yosemite 69pl
<< <i>here are my grade from today.They were alot better than my grades on the $5 medal of honors.All 13 submitted were 69s.
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69P 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Also got my grades on my 3 amarks I submitted and the GC was also a 69dmpl,yellowstone 68dmpl and yosemite 69pl >>
Just checked closely my Prudential. All were DMPL or PL but were were scratched. It's too bad these were't handled a little more carefully, they would have been nice coins.
<< <i>What is with the Glacier pucks? 1461 graded and ALL are MS69PL.....how's that for consistency...no DMPL's,,,all 69's >>
MCM has been unloading a ton of these on the Bay this week. Every couple days another batch of 10 auctions end. There are a few DMPLs out there from other sellers, but so far the bulk of them have been 69 PLs .
<< <i>here are my grade from today.They were alot better than my grades on the $5 medal of honors.All 13 submitted were 69s.
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM 25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM 25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69P 25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Also got my grades on my 3 amarks I submitted and the GC was also a 69dmpl,yellowstone 68dmpl and yosemite 69pl >>
Blue I am interested in how your Amarks graded but was confused by your post. Could you please elaborate?
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Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
It was a hood not yosemite that was ms69PL. All my yellowstone were ugly so I did not send them in.I still have not got a yellowstone DMPL out of the 4 or 5 I sent in before.Most were 69PL.
All APs or a few of the suspected ones? As a taxpayer, it shouldn't be a question of money but in our President's words - "Transparency." If the Federal Government is doing business with unethical companies, or alleged unethical companies, then an investigation or audit is demanded, not asked for. At the very, very least, some APs violated the spirit of the US Mint's intentions by controlling the product unfairly and profited by doing it.
Forget the US Mint, they obviously don't seem to care. File a small claims lawsuit against the AP who you feel has violated the rules. In Florida, this would easily fall under False and Misleading Advertising and Sale. You can then request discovery from the company that supports your claim or depose their employees to get the answers to your questions. Your damages would be the difference between the value of a random set of coins vs. the average set of coins left after being cherry picked.
Comments
I did not expect the mint to do anything else.
They can not handle what they are now selling , never mint take over what the AP's are selling.
Hot Springs - MS65
Yellowstone - MS68PL
Yosemite - MS67DMPL
Grand Canyon - MS69PL
Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying????
<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65
Yellowstone - MS68PL
Yosemite - MS67DMPL
Grand Canyon - MS69PL
Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying????
65, 66, 67, 68, 69... Congratulations, you drew a straight!
<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65
Yellowstone - MS68PL
Yosemite - MS67DMPL
Grand Canyon - MS69PL
Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying????
Great.....I have 17 "On the truck for delivery" today.....makes me kinda insecure ........cherry picked but now I have doubts....another hour should tell the story
<< <i>
<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65
Yellowstone - MS68PL
Yosemite - MS67DMPL
Grand Canyon - MS69PL
Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying????
Great.....I have 17 "On the truck for delivery" today.....makes me kinda insecure ........cherry picked but now I have doubts....another hour should tell the story >>
I sent in 12 that were much better than the first 10 I sent months ago. Those had some 68's and 69's. I'm thinking I'm going to be very disappointed. If they are on the truck haven't you already seen the grades online?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My worst grades to date.... by a mile. I cant complain tho, its been a great ride while it lasted.
Hot Springs - MS65
Yellowstone - MS68PL
Yosemite - MS67DMPL
Grand Canyon - MS69PL
Mount Hood - MS66DMPL
Who's buying????
Great.....I have 17 "On the truck for delivery" today.....makes me kinda insecure ........cherry picked but now I have doubts....another hour should tell the story >>
I sent in 12 that were much better than the first 10 I sent months ago. Those had some 68's and 69's. I'm thinking I'm going to be very disappointed. If they are on the truck haven't you already seen the grades online? >>
Having graded 380 ATB bullion coins in the last 4-5 months, i can tell you that without a doubt in my mind... Grading has gotten a lot tougher. Numbers don't lie.
The first couple of batches of coins we sent in, were close to 70% 69's, 27% 68's and only a few 67's and below. (there were no PL, DMPL's at this point...)
The next few batches (right when DMPL, PL's were being given...) we were down to about 50% 69's 40% 68's and a good 10% of 67 and lower.
The last couple batches sent in... we were down to 42-43% 69's and 67 and below was up to 15-20%
We always cherry picked them before sending them in, and doubt that we changed our criteria significantly, definitely not enough that would cause such large statistical differences.
- Aron
This does seem to indicate that there may in fact be poor objective correlation with grading on these. Buy the coin not the grade!
That has to be distressing to some people (or all of us!).
Looks like first in is best, once some magical quoto is hit, management directive or ???, then grades go down.
I am interested in more people's take on this but this does seem to be the theme based on recent postings
"Buy the coin - not the holder" is easy enough if you're at a coin show or B&M. Not so easy if you're online. Many of the imperfections that can downgrade a coin are just not that readily apparent with photographs, and especially with photographs through plastic! End result: even more NAD refunds on feebay.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
<< <i>From an article in today's Coin Update News
"There were many claims that some AP’s appeared to be violating some of the Mint’s terms for distribution of the coins, such as by cherry picking the best coins for grading and then later re-selling those coins at a premium. The Mint recently announced that there are no grounds for conducting audits of how the AP’s handled the 2010 ATB bullion program. It specifically stated that the AP practice of having the coins graded before selling them was not a violation of the Mint’s terms of sale."
And the June 13th issue of Coin World, pg 4, for those that can read the digital version: No Audit >>
The above is very similar to what others have posted before and I previously posted in this thread 5/18/11 - does the Coin update News article author cite a reference link for his source?
Just personally curious. I can't read the link posted. Anyone able to copy and PM the contents of the Coin Update News to me? If so, thanks in advance.
Anyway, here's what I wrote back then -
<Wednesday May 18, 2011 3:45 PM
Talked to the mint guy today for about 40 minutes. Bottom line regarding the mint's position on the saga of the APs + the 2010 pucks is -
If the market conditions changed and evolved after the 10% price control and the one per HH directive issued to the APs in Dec. 2010 came to be as it did, then that's the way it is, it's difficult for the mint to anticipate every twist and turn, that in retrospect, has occurred since the directive.
I'd tell you everything discussed, but it doesn't really matter, once the APs self-certified that the 2010 bullion was sold according to the mint directive, all controls are off the APs for the 2010 bullion. Even if the APs haven't shipped them yet. Re-selling 2010 pucks obtained from other sources is OK. Graded coins is OK.
I was told that the audit of APs was discussed but the legal consul office decided not to.
And that's the way it is. >
<< <i>
<< <i>From an article in today's Coin Update News
"There were many claims that some AP’s appeared to be violating some of the Mint’s terms for distribution of the coins, such as by cherry picking the best coins for grading and then later re-selling those coins at a premium. The Mint recently announced that there are no grounds for conducting audits of how the AP’s handled the 2010 ATB bullion program. It specifically stated that the AP practice of having the coins graded before selling them was not a violation of the Mint’s terms of sale."
And the June 13th issue of Coin World, pg 4, for those that can read the digital version: No Audit >>
The above is very similar to what others have posted before and I previously posted in this thread 5/18/11 - does the Coin update News article author cite a reference link for his source? >>
Because these were released today, I posted them. The Coin Update article was part 2 under his own by line and had today's date.
Coin Update News
I will make a PDF of the Coin World article and PM you. This is the reporter who was assigned after I emailed the editor and stated in his first email to me "I'm still not really sure what the problem or complaint is, if there is one.". I already knew he wasn't going to be tough. He was going to believe what APMEX and Jack Hunt said, hook, line and sinker. Which you will be gob smacked when you read what APMEX said about the letters on the boxes. An out right lie.
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67PL
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS66DM
25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68PL
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63PL
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Is that the health care bill on that cart?
<< <i>Is that the health care bill on that cart? >>
Looks like Obama.
<< <i>Well, kinda disappointed since these were cherry picked from a group of 25. No clue why or how the 63's are graded as such.....(I make a habit of not looking at the grades online, makes for a Xmas like adventure when they arrive) >>
Well at least you got a Grand Canyon 69dm. When did you submit these? I can't understand why I'm still waiting since 5-2.
<< <i>Well, kinda disappointed since these were cherry picked from a group of 25. No clue why or how the 63's are graded as such.....(I make a habit of not looking at the grades online, makes for a Xmas like adventure when they arrive)
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67PL
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS66DM
25C Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68PL
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS63PL >>
I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones.
<< <i>Well at least you got a Grand Canyon 69dm. When did you submit these? I can't understand why I'm still waiting since 5-2. >>
It has been taking about a month for me to get grades on my past 3 submissions. You should get results any day now.
<< <i>I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones. >>
If you don't have "the eye" for grading moderns you'll always be surprised with the results...
So I called APMEX Tuesday about my puck set order and the rep was really nice, called down to shipping and was told that my set would ship Tuesday and I'd get a shipping notification Tues night. Well that didn't happen. I still don't know why I'm last to receive my set when I was among the first to order and pay... Anyone else still waiting?
<< <i> I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones >>
The only credibility that a grading company has is its' consistency and fairness. If that is in question then all grades received become a random event and basically pointless.
A 69 DMPL now should have been graded exactly the same 5 months ago and again 5 months from now. Otherwise what is the point of a price guide....
<< <i>
<< <i> I was just as surprised as you with my coins. The first ten I submitted a while ago were not as nice as my last ten, but were graded much higher than my recent ones >>
The only credibility that a grading company has is its' consistency and fairness. If that is in question then all grades received become a random event and basically pointless.
A 69 DMPL now should have been graded exactly the same 5 months ago and again 5 months from now. Otherwise what is the point of a price guide.... >>
I understand the "learning curve" and the more you see, the better a comparison can be made argument. But I agree 100% about the consistancy issue. A by-product is that the submissions will slow down.
I'm sure PCGS is mindful of this as it makes good business sense to be as fair and consistent as possible. That's what they do and why they are in business.
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I have hunderd year old coins that are better than that.
As for MS69's, I wonder if PCGS is treating these like they are supposed to be MS70. LIke any flaw makes them a 68 or lower, when in fact a 69 has a flaw.
<< <i>If you don't have "the eye" for grading moderns you'll always be surprised with the results... >>
I sure wish I had "the eye". I submitted 30 2011 ASE proofs and 85% were PF70. Problem is I think the PUCKS take a different eye and I haven't found a transplant candidate yet.
<< <i>MS63 !!
I have hunderd year old coins that are better than that.
As for MS69's, I wonder if PCGS is treating these like they are supposed to be MS70. LIke any flaw makes them a 68 or lower, when in fact a 69 has a flaw. >>
As soon as a policy adjustment is made that says that there WILL be no MS70 coins from this bullion series that skews the whole grading curve. Of course there will be a few perfect coins and to say otherwise is just not fair to those lucky enough to have them.
So, as you said, a perfect coin then become a 69 and a minor mark drops to 68 etc.
There was the same short lived policy for the ASE's when the spotting issue was discovered. Grading shifted across the street and the policy was changed. Sucks if you were early to the game on that one and sucks with the pucks that ARE perfect.
<< <i>
<< <i> .........................
As soon as a policy adjustment is made that says that there WILL be no MS70 coins from this bullion series that skews the whole grading curve. Of course there will be a few perfect coins and to say otherwise is just not fair to those lucky enough to have them. .........
>>
Really seems as though PCGS is shooting itself in the foot with this one. Bottom line - if you have a perfect bullion coin, either submit to a grading service that will recognize it as such, or keep it raw. Either way, PCGS loses, as does the hobby.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL
Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS65PL
Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL
Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL
Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL
Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS65DM
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS66PL
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS64PL
<< <i>I'm still pretty new to grading. Does PCGS actually announce that it will not grade 70s? Has this happened in the past? >>
Well with just under 38,000 graded the number of 70's is....let me get my calculator...adding all the parks together....MS/PL/DMPL stats.....
Total = ZERO
As I said in my previous post it happened with the ASE's when the milk spotting issue arose....
Edited to add: NGC has taken the same stance this time so no advantage to change submission allegiances
<< <i>This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me >>
lightcycler: Did you examine these coins before submitting? The 64 and 65 pieces had to be pretty beat up. Please post some images when they return and sorry about your bad luck.
<< <i>
<< <i>This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me >>
lightcycler: Did you examine these coins before submitting? The 64 and 65 pieces had to be pretty beat up. Please post some images when they return and sorry about your bad luck. >>
i got 1 64 out of 4 sets that i submitted. the obverse has a lot of scrapes on it. the other 19 coins had almost no visible marks and graded 68 and 69 with a couple of 67`s in the mix.
if it graded 64 or 65 you should see some hits or scratches on the coins.
here are some pics.
<< <i>
<< <i>This tells me I didn't look close enough at the coins and Jack Hunts graders were much better than me >>
lightcycler: Did you examine these coins before submitting? The 64 and 65 pieces had to be pretty beat up. Please post some images when they return and sorry about your bad luck. >>
Fact is I looked at them only with the naked eye. The coins I submitted mid march that got those grades were beat up. I was stupid to get those graded but felt it was the best way to sell them, no buyer beware. These were not. I should have given them an acetone dip for sure. I will take the best pics I can when I get them back. I expected those grades with my first submission. I in no way expected this one. My belief is that die polish was not graded down severley at first but is today.
As far as grading goes etc I"m relatively new to the game. In the end I"m a PM guy dinking in the graded coin game. I buy silver so in the end.....don't really care so much. My 3 sets of B's and one set of D from Apmex kind of beat these all to heck huh? How did they get so many highly graded coins?
I can assure you that is my last submission.
<< <i>I can assure you that is my last submission. >>
That's too bad. I am a rookie here also, with less than 3 years of experience submitting coins. It takes a little time to learn the basics but it is not rocket science and can be both fun and profitable. I've struck out a few times and hit a couple home runs. It's been a winner for me overall and I hope to be around for a long time.
<< <i>i got 1 64 out of 4 sets that i submitted. the obverse has a lot of scrapes on it. the other 19 coins had almost no visible marks and graded 68 and 69 with a couple of 67`s in the mix.
if it graded 64 or 65 you should see some hits or scratches on the coins. >>
When was your submission? The ones I submitted were nothing like that. That is what sucks so much. I'll take pics when they come back.
Yosemite NP - MS69DM
Hot Springs NP - MS68DM
Grand Canyon NP - MS67DM
Grand Canyon NP - MS68PL
Yellowstone NP - MS69PL
Yellowstone NP - MS68PL
Mount Hood NP -MS69PL
Mount Hood NP - MS67DM
I was expecting worse after reading recent reports, so I'm happy overall.
<< <i>
<< <i>i got 1 64 out of 4 sets that i submitted. the obverse has a lot of scrapes on it. the other 19 coins had almost no visible marks and graded 68 and 69 with a couple of 67`s in the mix.
if it graded 64 or 65 you should see some hits or scratches on the coins. >>
When was your submission? The ones I submitted were nothing like that. That is what sucks so much. I'll take pics when they come back. >>
10 coins entered pcgs pipeline on 02/24 and another 10 on 04/21.
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69P
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Also got my grades on my 3 amarks I submitted and the GC was also a 69dmpl,yellowstone 68dmpl and yosemite 69pl
<< <i>here are my grade from today.They were alot better than my grades on the $5 medal of honors.All 13 submitted were 69s.
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69P
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Also got my grades on my 3 amarks I submitted and the GC was also a 69dmpl,yellowstone 68dmpl and yosemite 69pl >>
Very nice!! Who were these from?
<< <i>What is with the Glacier pucks? 1461 graded and ALL are MS69PL.....how's that for consistency...no DMPL's,,,all 69's >>
MCM has been unloading a ton of these on the Bay this week. Every couple days another batch of 10 auctions end. There are a few DMPLs out there from other sellers, but so far the bulk of them have been 69 PLs .
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>here are my grade from today.They were alot better than my grades on the $5 medal of honors.All 13 submitted were 69s.
Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS67DM
25C Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Yosemite NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
25C Grand Canyon NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69P
25C Hot Springs NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69DM
Also got my grades on my 3 amarks I submitted and the GC was also a 69dmpl,yellowstone 68dmpl and yosemite 69pl >>
Blue I am interested in how your Amarks graded but was confused by your post. Could you please elaborate?
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Mount Hood NP - 5 oz Silver US MS69PL
Yellowstone NP - 5 oz Silver US MS68DM
It was a hood not yosemite that was ms69PL. All my yellowstone were ugly so I did not send them in.I still have not got a yellowstone DMPL out of the 4 or 5 I sent in before.Most were 69PL.
<< <i>What is with the Glacier pucks? 1461 graded and ALL are MS69PL.....how's that for consistency...no DMPL's,,,all 69's >>
mine haven't graded yet.
We are trying to convince the Mint to audit the APs.
but audits cost money.
What can you say to convince the Mint to spend the money?