<< <i>Is the DG set at $1159 a fair price for these? >>
Depends on how you look at it. Considering melt value is $1125 you are getting the slabs (not really graded) and shipping for $34, which isn't bad.
On the other hand, the APs are required to sell these at cost + 10% + shipping and handling. That seems to be averaging around $925 or so for the other APs. In that light you are paying over $200 for bulk grading with no numeric grade.
In my opinion, following the mints rules, they are over charging for these. They still may be a good deal, just not a great deal.
<< <i>Is the DG set at $1159 a fair price for these? >>
Depends on how you look at it. Considering melt value is $1125 you are getting the slabs (not really graded) and shipping for $34, which isn't bad.
On the other hand, the APs are required to sell these at cost + 10% + shipping and handling. That seems to be averaging around $925 or so for the other APs. In that light you are paying over $200 for bulk grading with no numeric grade.
In my opinion, following the mints rules, they are over charging for these. They still may be a good deal, just not a great deal. >>
And will see if the mint would like a copy of the form to show that there not following the pricing policy. Another rogue AP
I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway.
<< <i>I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway. >>
Imagine this. You pay bulk submission rates to get a couple hundred sets graded. You then "sell" MS69DMPL sets at below spot pricing to your customers who usually make multi-thousand dollar purchases from you. You just scored points with your customer and made them happy and it did not cost you that much. Your future orders from those happy customers more than pays for the grading fees and nobody broke any Mint rules.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Here is the reply I just got from Jack Hunt............We are responding to your concern regarding graded and ungraded America the Beautiful(ATB) coins. ATB coins were sold as *BULLION* at a set price dictated by the Mint. As an experiment a number of sets were graded and some individuals did receive them. Under no circumstances were coins represented and sold as graded. It was completely random who did and did not receive graded sets. Again, the coins were sold a bullion, just as the Mint instructed us.
If you are dissatisfied you are welcome to return your set for a payment of $1000.
With respect to the US Mint. We have met the Mint's sales conditions to the letter.
Sincerely, Well that explains everything, except where did all the 69's dmpl go ? Experiment? Oh maybe they didn't get any 69dmpls Random will see what everyone else reports getting.
Somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway. >>
Imagine this. You pay bulk submission rates to get a couple hundred sets graded. You then "sell" MS69DMPL sets at below spot pricing to your customers who usually make multi-thousand dollar purchases from you. You just scored points with your customer and made them happy and it did not cost you that much. Your future orders from those happy customers more than pays for the grading fees and nobody broke any Mint rules. >>
Its an explanation, but seems like a stretch. I think the bulk submission rates only get you a BU grade and not an actual number. But anyway, still seems like a risky, expensive thing to do to give some goodwill to your best customers. Plus, from reading the posts on here, it seems many loyal customers got raw, while many non-big customers got the graded sets.
I've never bought anything from from AMPEX. Never even created an account until maybe a month ago when I signed up for an alert if more ATB sets were available. I got the e-mail last week saying they were available, paid, and my order is supposed to ship tomorrow. They are supposed to be the slabbed "BU or better" sets. We'll see how many are BU and how many are 'better'...
<< <i>For all of you who ordered from Jack hunt and received a raw set May I encourage you to leave a nice message with jack. leave them a note And than after your done with leaving jack a nice message may I again encourage you to call the u.s. mint legal dept and talk to those people.The Mint Office of Legal Council (no one was in, of course) but it is the correct office and number: 202-354-7280.Now I have fought since the beginning when ampex started with there high prices, I have forwarded all articles and called when the gold center took us all for a ride, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT! It has now been proven that Jack hunt has cherry picked the coins they were suppose to release to the public, they should not be allowed to order the new ones period. For those of you getting graded coins have you noticed there are NO 69 dmpl being sent out? So while I totally feel screwed over How do the rest of you feel knowing that THIS company is going to keep all the 69dmpl and send you the crap? Yes I am Ticked off, and such is life, But if by chance you feel the same than make the phone call today................................................ >>
All of the AP's orders that I have read state that you are buying bullion coins and possibly have some kind of defects. This seems to be what is delivered, some better than others. You are buying them under spot. What's the beef?? >>
What does spot have to do with it? We are collectors.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway. >>
Imagine this. You pay bulk submission rates to get a couple hundred sets graded. You then "sell" MS69DMPL sets at below spot pricing to your customers who usually make multi-thousand dollar purchases from you. You just scored points with your customer and made them happy and it did not cost you that much. Your future orders from those happy customers more than pays for the grading fees and nobody broke any Mint rules. >>
Its an explanation, but seems like a stretch. I think the bulk submission rates only get you a BU grade and not an actual number. But anyway, still seems like a risky, expensive thing to do to give some goodwill to your best customers. Plus, from reading the posts on here, it seems many loyal customers got raw, while many non-big customers got the graded sets.
From PCGS With Bulk Submissions, you may indicate one (1) minimum grade on your submission form. PCGS will holder any coins that meet or exceed the requested minimum grade. No minimum MS or PR 70 submissions will be accepted. If you will accept any grade, please indicate that on the submission form. If no minimum is requested, all coins will be graded. Below is the current pricing for orders with a minimum grade listed:
If 60% of the coins submitted meet or exceed the minimum grade, each holdered coin will be charged $12. The coins that do not meet your minimum grade will be returned to you unholdered with no charge. If less than 60% of the coins submitted meet or exceed the minimum grade, each holdered coin will be charged $12 while the unholdered coins will be charged $5 each
$12 x200 =$2400. I think they could handle the charges.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Here is the reply I just got from Jack Hunt............We are responding to your concern regarding graded and ungraded America the Beautiful(ATB) coins. ATB coins were sold as *BULLION* at a set price dictated by the Mint. As an experiment a number of sets were graded and some individuals did receive them. Under no circumstances were coins represented and sold as graded. It was completely random who did and did not receive graded sets. Again, the coins were sold a bullion, just as the Mint instructed us.
If you are dissatisfied you are welcome to return your set for a payment of $1000.
With respect to the US Mint. We have met the Mint's sales conditions to the letter.
Sincerely, Well that explains everything, except where did all the 69's dmpl go ? Experiment? Oh maybe they didn't get any 69dmpls Random will see what everyone else reports getting. >>
Srsly. A grading experiment. Really? REALLY? I'm supposed to believe that JH spent their hard earned money on a grading experiment? That is absolutely laughable.
Thats the key phrase from Jack Hunt. Just what was the purpose of the experiment?
Time, effort, money was spent for an experiment to yield some result that could be used for some purpose.
A bit shady? Maybe. However, to take their side, if you received slabbed PCGS or NGC coins then they have delivered MORE than promised. If you received raw coins then thats all that was promised.
They have a business to run. I'll give them some slack here and save my energy for something more worthwhile to complain about. But I would like to know the purpose of the experiment.
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Here is the reply I just got from Jack Hunt............We are responding to your concern regarding graded and ungraded America the Beautiful(ATB) coins. ATB coins were sold as *BULLION* at a set price dictated by the Mint. As an experiment a number of sets were graded and some individuals did receive them. Under no circumstances were coins represented and sold as graded. It was completely random who did and did not receive graded sets. Again, the coins were sold a bullion, just as the Mint instructed us.
If you are dissatisfied you are welcome to return your set for a payment of $1000.
With respect to the US Mint. We have met the Mint's sales conditions to the letter.
Sincerely, Well that explains everything, except where did all the 69's dmpl go ? Experiment? Oh maybe they didn't get any 69dmpls Random will see what everyone else reports getting. >>
As an "experiment"? I laughed when I read that... I have no doubt that the best customers got the 69DMPLs.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Your description shows MS69DMPF , you need to fix that.
even if they did what they said as an experiment, they shouldn't be grading AND marking them up for the grading costs. Essentially, for these bullion coins, they are forcing a numismatic grading service's fees upon the customers.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place. >>
NM.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>even if they did what they said as an experiment, they shouldn't be grading AND marking them up for the grading costs. Essentially, for these bullion coins, they are forcing a numismatic grading service's fees upon the customers.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
This stinks.
Audit. Audit. Audit. >>
I don't think they are charging any more for the graded coins.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
My last comment on all of these APs. There's playing by the rules and there's "stretching" the rules. I've been able to formulate opinions based on the good folks here posting their experiences.
<< <i>even if they did what they said as an experiment, they shouldn't be grading AND marking them up for the grading costs. Essentially, for these bullion coins, they are forcing a numismatic grading service's fees upon the customers.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
This stinks.
Audit. Audit. Audit. >>
I don't think they are charging any more for the graded coins. >>
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Your description shows MS69DMPF , you need to fix that. >>
Thanks
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>My last comment on all of these APs. There's playing by the rules and there's "stretching" the rules. I've been able to formulate opinions based on the good folks here posting their experiences. >>
When large quantities of money is involved I think we have seen that today there are a lot of rule stretchers. Some of our movers and shakers have even got bored of stretching and just decided to take the breaking road. Sad state of affairs.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
If JHCB did really do it as an experiment, one purpose may be in anticipation of the 2011 sets... Since the rules are different there, why not have some inhouse folks get a little lesson in grading the 2010s? Let them pick out a few hundred, write down what they think they will grade, submit, and see how they did.....get them used to DMPL vs PL and 69 vs 68 vs 6x....
IF, and that's a mighty big IF, that was their purpose, I wouldn't fault them for that.
Heck, as long as they aren't charging me for crap add-ons, and are selling their entire allotment the right way (ie...not out the back door), then it IS BULLION! BULLION BULLION BULLION
I'm a collector too, I collect(ed) SAEs as well. They are coin-BULLION. I understand that. I have graded some, I used to have a full set graded and now have 3 raw sets, extra raw, and still have about 2 dozen graded ones. These pucks are BULLION that can be graded. If you are buying them, it should be in that perspective.....BULLION that can be graded.
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is. >>
Again somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is. >>
Again somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters. >>
Maybe the complaints should also go to Congress who keeps coming up with crazy coin programs that the Mint has to execute. Plenty of places for criticism.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is. >>
Again somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters. >>
The mint didn't force anyone to keep the best coins and sell the crappy (bullion) coins. I would bet that the jump in ATB DMPL POP`s was from the grading (experiment) thats why they have not shown up for sale yet. All the mint did was try and keep the AP`s from overcharging,keeping it fair to the general public. The AP`s (some) don't seem to want to be fair to the general public.
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
<< <i>It's obvious the AP's are not very bright business people. I think they are very stupid.
The margins were already tight, then they pay PCGS to grade these, not to mention tying up $3million in an assets that are not appreciating.
Jack Hunt the stupidest person, so far, had to of lost money on this deal. >>
Jack Hunt may be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them. He is a very shrewd businessman. He's been around far too long for it to be otherwise. >>
Agreed.
This is all based on speculation....JH may see more value in giving a carrot to his loyal customer base than appeasing a lot of small rolling customers, which they may not want to deal with in the future anyway. And if they are in fact cherrypicking, they'd be doing it generally within the rules (though arguably not in spirit of a fair sale). AMark apparently took a different approach and their sale will certainly entice a lot of new folks to the company. Many of these folks will be small rollers though, but perhaps this is a business path AMark is potentially interested in. And certainly some of the ATB purchasers are high rollers that could end up spending a lot of money with the company.
I would love to see some audtis, but I just don't think that will happen. Best we can do is order from APs who did a wide and fair sale in the future. Personally, I'm going to be looking to AMark first.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>It's obvious the AP's are not very bright business people. I think they are very stupid.
The margins were already tight, then they pay PCGS to grade these, not to mention tying up $3million in an assets that are not appreciating.
Jack Hunt the stupidest person, so far, had to of lost money on this deal. >>
I think you are making a VERY big assumption...that these "stupid" dealers who got the coins graded sold all of them at cost to individuals....maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing and sold the high grade coins at a major markup...
Makes no sense to get them actually graded (not designated "choice" or "gem") and then pass them out as raw coins....the graded ones that did go out obviously did not impress them enough to sell separately
I think you are making a VERY big assumption...that these "stupid" dealers who got the coins graded sold all of them at cost to individuals....maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing and sold the high grade coins at a major markup...
I don't think they would be allowes under the rules to do that but maybe the lawyers said otherwise.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
The ONLY reason these idiots got caught with their pants down is because the Mint is making them certify they sold all their 2010 coins before getting any 2011 coins.
This is making the AP's show their true colors.
If you think you are getting a fair deal from Jack, go ahead and keep dealing with him. I won't.
<< <i>maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing and sold the high grade coins at a major markup... >>
This would definetely be against the Mint's rules on the limited markup. And since the Mint has said they need to sell the 2010s before they get the 2011s, surely the Mint requires some recordkeeping on sales. So, for an AP to hold back some high-grade coins for premium resale, they would need to cook the books to some degree and lie to the Mint. Not saying that it is not happening, but it really sounds pretty risky for an AP. But, I can't think of any other reason for them to get the coins graded.
Just received the following email from Jack Hunt. I placed orders but never paid. After reading this thread, I'm glad I didn't.
Hello,
On April 10th you placed an order for a set of 2010 America the Beautiful coins at JackHuntATB.com. Order confirmation numbers fell in range of #XXXX - #XXXX.
As clearly stated in our sales terms and conditions payment must be received within seven days. As of today, April 20th, we have yet to receive your payment. Unless you can produce a tracking number for payment mailed to us on or before April 18th your order is CANCELED.
Please note that JHCB will return all payments postmarked April 19th or later and will not respond to emails regarding payments sent after April 18th.
Sincerely,
JHCB
Successful BSTs with adriana, barrytrot, Bochiman, Dabigkahuna, Modern Coin Mart, oilstates2003, terburn88, THEGENERAL
I only know this much, unless these "mint" versions dazzle me I will be collecting the bullion version....and after dealing with 6 different APs, Amark will get my business. Following the mints rules should not have taken brain surgery intelligence, and all the hoops and games were for their benefit, not the customers. They all had a chance to widen their customer base but that was too big a bother, and not enough profit for them. I just hope the mint really does do something to those that so blatantly messed with the rules.
One last point, since these are going to be so cost prohibitive, very few will collect them all. But, I do think many will collect those that are meaningful to them or emblematic of the National Parks, (Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Glacier, Shenandoah, Yosemite,etc), or possibly the "historic" parks. I won't be getting rid of any of my Yellowstones, Grand Canyons, or Yosemites until I see how this plays out. I could see a small collection of the key parks being a very attractive set.
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Sold for buy it now price of $1950.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Comments
<< <i>Is the DG set at $1159 a fair price for these? >>
Depends on how you look at it. Considering melt value is $1125 you are getting the slabs (not really graded) and shipping for $34, which isn't bad.
On the other hand, the APs are required to sell these at cost + 10% + shipping and handling. That seems to be averaging around $925 or so for the other APs. In that light you are paying over $200 for bulk grading with no numeric grade.
In my opinion, following the mints rules, they are over charging for these. They still may be a good deal, just not a great deal.
PLEASE allow this GIANT & informative thread to continue!
Miles
<< <i>
<< <i>Is the DG set at $1159 a fair price for these? >>
Depends on how you look at it. Considering melt value is $1125 you are getting the slabs (not really graded) and shipping for $34, which isn't bad.
On the other hand, the APs are required to sell these at cost + 10% + shipping and handling. That seems to be averaging around $925 or so for the other APs. In that light you are paying over $200 for bulk grading with no numeric grade.
In my opinion, following the mints rules, they are over charging for these. They still may be a good deal, just not a great deal. >>
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>Is the DG set at $1159 a fair price for these? >>
Considering APMEX just sold their remaining sets in PCGS "BU or Better" slabs for under $1,000 I don't think the DG price is "fair."
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway.
<< <i>I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway. >>
Imagine this. You pay bulk submission rates to get a couple hundred sets graded. You then "sell" MS69DMPL sets at below spot pricing to your customers who usually make multi-thousand dollar purchases from you. You just scored points with your customer and made them happy and it did not cost you that much. Your future orders from those happy customers more than pays for the grading fees and nobody broke any Mint rules.
the Beautiful(ATB) coins. ATB coins were sold as *BULLION* at a set
price dictated by the Mint. As an experiment a number of sets were
graded and some individuals did receive them. Under no circumstances
were coins represented and sold as graded. It was completely random who
did and did not receive graded sets. Again, the coins were sold a
bullion, just as the Mint instructed us.
If you are dissatisfied you are welcome to return your set for a payment
of $1000.
With respect to the US Mint. We have met the Mint's sales conditions to
the letter.
Sincerely,
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>Here is the reply I just got from Jack Hunt............ As an experiment a number of sets were
graded and some individuals did receive them.
Experiment? I hope the laboratory did not blow up.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway. >>
Imagine this. You pay bulk submission rates to get a couple hundred sets graded. You then "sell" MS69DMPL sets at below spot pricing to your customers who usually make multi-thousand dollar purchases from you. You just scored points with your customer and made them happy and it did not cost you that much. Your future orders from those happy customers more than pays for the grading fees and nobody broke any Mint rules. >>
Its an explanation, but seems like a stretch. I think the bulk submission rates only get you a BU grade and not an actual number. But anyway, still seems like a risky, expensive thing to do to give some goodwill to your best customers. Plus, from reading the posts on here, it seems many loyal customers got raw, while many non-big customers got the graded sets.
I've never bought anything from from AMPEX. Never even created an account until maybe a month ago when I signed up for an alert if more ATB sets were available. I got the e-mail last week saying they were available, paid, and my order is supposed to ship tomorrow. They are supposed to be the slabbed "BU or better" sets. We'll see how many are BU and how many are 'better'...
<< <i>
<< <i>For all of you who ordered from Jack hunt and received a raw set May I encourage you to leave a nice message with jack. leave them a note And than after your done with leaving jack a nice message may I again encourage you to call the u.s. mint legal dept and talk to those people.The Mint Office of Legal Council (no one was in, of course) but it is the correct office and number: 202-354-7280.Now I have fought since the beginning when ampex started with there high prices, I have forwarded all articles and called when the gold center took us all for a ride, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT! It has now been proven that Jack hunt has cherry picked the coins they were suppose to release to the public, they should not be allowed to order the new ones period. For those of you getting graded coins have you noticed there are NO 69 dmpl being sent out? So while I totally feel screwed over How do the rest of you feel knowing that THIS company is going to keep all the 69dmpl and send you the crap? Yes I am Ticked off, and such is life, But if by chance you feel the same than make the phone call today................................................
All of the AP's orders that I have read state that you are buying bullion coins and possibly have some kind of defects. This seems to be what is delivered, some better than others. You are buying them under spot. What's the beef?? >>
What does spot have to do with it? We are collectors.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand the graded/slabbed coins. The APs can only sell the sets at a certain, limited mark-up as directed by the Mint. All coins would have sold out if they were raw.
Why would the APs add the probably very large of expense of having many 100s graded if it doesn't add anything to the price they can sell them at (since they are limited to selling at the Mint-mandated mark-up)? The response is probably so they can keep the best ones for themselves to sell at a higher cost, but it seems the costs of having everything graded to just profit on the relatively few 69DMs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that they have to show the Mint they have actually sold all of their alotments at the mandated price. To hold back the 69DMs to sell at a higher price would basically mean cooking the books and lying to the Mint. Seems pretty risky for them.
But, I really can't think of another explanation for going to the expense of grading all these coins that were going to sell raw anyway. >>
Imagine this. You pay bulk submission rates to get a couple hundred sets graded. You then "sell" MS69DMPL sets at below spot pricing to your customers who usually make multi-thousand dollar purchases from you. You just scored points with your customer and made them happy and it did not cost you that much. Your future orders from those happy customers more than pays for the grading fees and nobody broke any Mint rules. >>
Its an explanation, but seems like a stretch. I think the bulk submission rates only get you a BU grade and not an actual number. But anyway, still seems like a risky, expensive thing to do to give some goodwill to your best customers. Plus, from reading the posts on here, it seems many loyal customers got raw, while many non-big customers got the graded sets.
From PCGS
With Bulk Submissions, you may indicate one (1) minimum grade on your submission form. PCGS will holder any coins that meet or exceed the requested minimum grade. No minimum MS or PR 70 submissions will be accepted. If you will accept any grade, please indicate that on the submission form. If no minimum is requested, all coins will be graded. Below is the current pricing for orders with a minimum grade listed:
If 60% of the coins submitted meet or exceed the minimum grade, each holdered coin will be charged $12. The coins that do not meet your minimum grade will be returned to you unholdered with no charge.
If less than 60% of the coins submitted meet or exceed the minimum grade, each holdered coin will be charged $12 while the unholdered coins will be charged $5 each
$12 x200 =$2400. I think they could handle the charges.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Here is the reply I just got from Jack Hunt............We are responding to your concern regarding graded and ungraded America
the Beautiful(ATB) coins. ATB coins were sold as *BULLION* at a set
price dictated by the Mint. As an experiment a number of sets were
graded and some individuals did receive them. Under no circumstances
were coins represented and sold as graded. It was completely random who
did and did not receive graded sets. Again, the coins were sold a
bullion, just as the Mint instructed us.
If you are dissatisfied you are welcome to return your set for a payment
of $1000.
With respect to the US Mint. We have met the Mint's sales conditions to
the letter.
Sincerely,
Srsly. A grading experiment. Really? REALLY? I'm supposed to believe that JH spent their hard earned money on a grading experiment? That is absolutely laughable.
<< <i>With the Jack Hunt fiasco are we are about to see a lot of MS69DMPLs flood the market? >>
Doubt it. I would bet they did not grade but a few since it was an "experiment" and whatever they got is already reflected in the numbers.
Thats the key phrase from Jack Hunt. Just what was the purpose of the experiment?
Time, effort, money was spent for an experiment to yield some result that could be used for some purpose.
A bit shady? Maybe. However, to take their side, if you received slabbed PCGS or NGC coins then they have
delivered MORE than promised. If you received raw coins then thats all that was promised.
They have a business to run. I'll give them some slack here and save my energy for something more worthwhile to complain about. But I would like to know the purpose of the experiment.
<< <i>
<< <i>With the Jack Hunt fiasco are we are about to see a lot of MS69DMPLs flood the market? >>
Doubt it. I would bet they did not grade but a few since it was an "experiment" and whatever they got is already reflected in the numbers. >>
Well I posted my PCGS MS69DMPL Yellowstone on ebay, what do you think this coin will be worth in 1 and 5 years from now?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150594577309&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#shId
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Here is the reply I just got from Jack Hunt............We are responding to your concern regarding graded and ungraded America
the Beautiful(ATB) coins. ATB coins were sold as *BULLION* at a set
price dictated by the Mint. As an experiment a number of sets were
graded and some individuals did receive them. Under no circumstances
were coins represented and sold as graded. It was completely random who
did and did not receive graded sets. Again, the coins were sold a
bullion, just as the Mint instructed us.
If you are dissatisfied you are welcome to return your set for a payment
of $1000.
With respect to the US Mint. We have met the Mint's sales conditions to
the letter.
Sincerely,
As an "experiment"? I laughed when I read that... I have no doubt that the best customers got the 69DMPLs.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With the Jack Hunt fiasco are we are about to see a lot of MS69DMPLs flood the market? >>
Doubt it. I would bet they did not grade but a few since it was an "experiment" and whatever they got is already reflected in the numbers. >>
Well I posted my PCGS MS69DMPL Yellowstone on ebay, what do you think this coin will be worth in 1 and 5 years from now?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150594577309&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#shId
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Your description shows MS69DMPF , you need to fix that.
Loves me some shiny!
Boy that is a tough question. I can tell you it will either be worth more, less, or about the same in a few years. All depends on the unknown future.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
This stinks.
Audit. Audit. Audit.
<< <i>Gem BU equates to minimum MS-65. Correct? >>
I have no clue. You'd have to call PCGS and ask.
<< <i>
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
>>
NM.
<< <i>even if they did what they said as an experiment, they shouldn't be grading AND marking them up for the grading costs. Essentially, for these bullion coins, they are forcing a numismatic grading service's fees upon the customers.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
This stinks.
Audit. Audit. Audit. >>
I don't think they are charging any more for the graded coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>even if they did what they said as an experiment, they shouldn't be grading AND marking them up for the grading costs. Essentially, for these bullion coins, they are forcing a numismatic grading service's fees upon the customers.
Should the company be forced to lose money on the grading fees then? Yes. They should never have submitted them with the intent of recouping the fees in the first place. What the company should have done was never submit them in the first place.
This stinks.
Audit. Audit. Audit. >>
I don't think they are charging any more for the graded coins. >>
Opps...
Jack Hunt isn't.
I was thinking Dillon Gage.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With the Jack Hunt fiasco are we are about to see a lot of MS69DMPLs flood the market? >>
Doubt it. I would bet they did not grade but a few since it was an "experiment" and whatever they got is already reflected in the numbers. >>
Well I posted my PCGS MS69DMPL Yellowstone on ebay, what do you think this coin will be worth in 1 and 5 years from now?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150594577309&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#shId
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Your description shows MS69DMPF , you need to fix that. >>
Thanks
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>My last comment on all of these APs. There's playing by the rules and there's "stretching" the rules. I've been able to formulate opinions based on the good folks here posting their experiences. >>
When large quantities of money is involved I think we have seen that today there are a lot of rule stretchers. Some of our movers and shakers have even got bored of stretching and just decided to take the breaking road. Sad state of affairs.
As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
If JHCB did really do it as an experiment, one purpose may be in anticipation of the 2011 sets...
Since the rules are different there, why not have some inhouse folks get a little lesson in grading the 2010s?
Let them pick out a few hundred, write down what they think they will grade, submit, and see how they did.....get them used to DMPL vs PL and 69 vs 68 vs 6x....
IF, and that's a mighty big IF, that was their purpose, I wouldn't fault them for that.
Heck, as long as they aren't charging me for crap add-ons, and are selling their entire allotment the right way (ie...not out the back door), then it IS BULLION!
BULLION BULLION BULLION
I'm a collector too, I collect(ed) SAEs as well. They are coin-BULLION. I understand that. I have graded some, I used to have a full set graded and now have 3 raw sets, extra raw, and still have about 2 dozen graded ones.
These pucks are BULLION that can be graded. If you are buying them, it should be in that perspective.....BULLION that can be graded.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is. >>
Again somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is. >>
Again somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters. >>
Maybe the complaints should also go to Congress who keeps coming up with crazy coin programs that the Mint has to execute. Plenty of places for criticism.
Exactly.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
Apmex 2011 release
<< <i>
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, the only AP that had a legitimate reason for slabbing was A-Mark. The rest, including APMEX, are all suspect. And JH's "explanation" is down right insulting. This entire process has been manipulated from Day 1. Everyone, at every step of the way, has had their hand out. Nothing about this program would surprise me any more. It is what it is. >>
Again somehow the focus got shifted to the AP's and off the US Mint. This fiasco is the mint's fault and they should get the majority of the complaint letters. >>
The mint didn't force anyone to keep the best coins and sell the crappy (bullion) coins. I would bet that the jump in ATB DMPL POP`s was from the grading (experiment) thats why they have not shown up for sale yet. All the mint did was try and keep the AP`s from overcharging,keeping it fair to the general public. The AP`s (some) don't seem to want to be fair to the general public.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With the Jack Hunt fiasco are we are about to see a lot of MS69DMPLs flood the market? >>
Doubt it. I would bet they did not grade but a few since it was an "experiment" and whatever they got is already reflected in the numbers. >>
Well I posted my PCGS MS69DMPL Yellowstone on ebay, what do you think this coin will be worth in 1 and 5 years from now?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150594577309&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#shId
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Good luck
The margins were already tight, then they pay PCGS to grade these, not to mention tying up $3million in an assets that are not appreciating.
Jack Hunt the stupidest person, so far, had to of lost money on this deal.
Be fair with the little people? Nice quaint concept for the Harvard crowd but highly impractical. Now pass the grey poupon lovie.
<< <i>It's obvious the AP's are not very bright business people. I think they are very stupid.
The margins were already tight, then they pay PCGS to grade these, not to mention tying up $3million in an assets that are not appreciating.
Jack Hunt the stupidest person, so far, had to of lost money on this deal. >>
Jack Hunt may be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them. He is a very shrewd businessman. He's been around far too long for it to be otherwise.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
<< <i>
<< <i>It's obvious the AP's are not very bright business people. I think they are very stupid.
The margins were already tight, then they pay PCGS to grade these, not to mention tying up $3million in an assets that are not appreciating.
Jack Hunt the stupidest person, so far, had to of lost money on this deal. >>
Jack Hunt may be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them. He is a very shrewd businessman. He's been around far too long for it to be otherwise. >>
Agreed.
This is all based on speculation....JH may see more value in giving a carrot to his loyal customer base than appeasing a lot of small rolling customers, which they may not want to deal with in the future anyway. And if they are in fact cherrypicking, they'd be doing it generally within the rules (though arguably not in spirit of a fair sale). AMark apparently took a different approach and their sale will certainly entice a lot of new folks to the company. Many of these folks will be small rollers though, but perhaps this is a business path AMark is potentially interested in. And certainly some of the ATB purchasers are high rollers that could end up spending a lot of money with the company.
I would love to see some audtis, but I just don't think that will happen. Best we can do is order from APs who did a wide and fair sale in the future. Personally, I'm going to be looking to AMark first.
<< <i>It's obvious the AP's are not very bright business people. I think they are very stupid.
The margins were already tight, then they pay PCGS to grade these, not to mention tying up $3million in an assets that are not appreciating.
Jack Hunt the stupidest person, so far, had to of lost money on this deal. >>
I think you are making a VERY big assumption...that these "stupid" dealers who got the coins graded sold all of them at cost to individuals....maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing and sold the high grade coins at a major markup...
Makes no sense to get them actually graded (not designated "choice" or "gem") and then pass them out as raw coins....the graded ones that did go out obviously did not impress them enough to sell separately
I don't think they would be allowes under the rules to do that but maybe the lawyers said otherwise.
The rules were clear.
The ONLY reason these idiots got caught with their pants down is because the Mint is making them certify they sold all their 2010 coins before getting any 2011 coins.
This is making the AP's show their true colors.
If you think you are getting a fair deal from Jack, go ahead and keep dealing with him. I won't.
<< <i>maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing and sold the high grade coins at a major markup... >>
This would definetely be against the Mint's rules on the limited markup. And since the Mint has said they need to sell the 2010s before they get the 2011s, surely the Mint requires some recordkeeping on sales. So, for an AP to hold back some high-grade coins for premium resale, they would need to cook the books to some degree and lie to the Mint. Not saying that it is not happening, but it really sounds pretty risky for an AP. But, I can't think of any other reason for them to get the coins graded.
Hello,
On April 10th you placed an order for a set of 2010 America the Beautiful coins at JackHuntATB.com. Order confirmation numbers fell in range of #XXXX - #XXXX.
As clearly stated in our sales terms and conditions payment must be received within seven days. As of today, April 20th, we have yet to receive your payment. Unless you can produce a tracking number for payment mailed to us on or before April 18th your order is CANCELED.
Please note that JHCB will return all payments postmarked April 19th or later and will not respond to emails regarding payments sent after April 18th.
Sincerely,
JHCB
<< <i>But, I can't think of any other reason for them to get the coins graded. >>
Exactly....
One last point, since these are going to be so cost prohibitive, very few will collect them all. But, I do think many will collect those that are meaningful to them or emblematic of the National Parks, (Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Glacier, Shenandoah, Yosemite,etc), or possibly the "historic" parks. I won't be getting rid of any of my Yellowstones, Grand Canyons, or Yosemites until I see how this plays out. I could see a small collection of the key parks being a very attractive set.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With the Jack Hunt fiasco are we are about to see a lot of MS69DMPLs flood the market? >>
Doubt it. I would bet they did not grade but a few since it was an "experiment" and whatever they got is already reflected in the numbers. >>
Well I posted my PCGS MS69DMPL Yellowstone on ebay, what do you think this coin will be worth in 1 and 5 years from now?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150594577309&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#shId
I really wanted to hold but I do not have anymore MS69DMPL coins and really want to try and make a couple sets. I do have quite a few MS68DMPL so maybe I can complete a set of them. >>
Sold for buy it now price of $1950.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.