<< <i>I think it's a lot like those who claim taxes are too low yet never offer to send extra dollars in with their returns. >>
I have never heard anyone make that claim (other than the politician trying to raise them), but I understand what you are saying. >>
Watch practically anyone from Hollywood rail against "tax cuts for the Republican's rich cronies". Wonder how many of them are hip-deep in tax shelters.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>...but I'm not about to sort through 1,000 auctions to find the few dozen that are reasonably priced. >>
Why not sort them low-to-high and thus avoid looking at 995 of them? >>
The problem with that is I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest card. Also, once you get above about $5, you start seeing all kinds of cards that normally sell for less than $5.
Haven't read the whole post, but have read the first four pages.
Do have cards listed at auction for well below VCP average.
Are they listed at market price? I don't know.
You decide market price. Click on the link in my sig.
Brad
Check out my eBay listings for vintage graded baseball. BIN items are no more than 105% of VCP Average, auctions start at no more than 90% VCP Average. Refunds available on all sales. Buy and bid with confidence!
<< <i>Look at it this way. Where would we be without Ebay or Paypal? >>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? It makes me puke...."the most loved way to pay and be paid" ...we don't need them and they should be broken up.... they are a monopoly... chaz
<< <i>Look at it this way. Where would we be without Ebay or Paypal? >>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? It makes me puke...."the most loved way to pay and be paid" ...we don't need them and they should be broken up.... they are a monopoly... chaz >>
Not a monopoly.
I don't agree with their rules that help scammers, but there is very little wrong with their service. You pay to list your product and you pay to accept an easy and fast payment.
In business you have expenses.
Rent - credit card terminal - et cetera.
In 24 years I have never heard my dad complain about rent or the fees associated with his credit card terminal.
For those who complain, this is probably why you work for somebody else.
<< <i>Look at it this way. Where would we be without Ebay or Paypal? >>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? It makes me puke...."the most loved way to pay and be paid" ...we don't need them and they should be broken up.... they are a monopoly... chaz >>
Not a monopoly.
I don't agree with their rules that help scammers, but there is very little wrong with their service. You pay to list your product and you pay to accept an easy and fast payment.
In business you have expenses.
Rent - credit card terminal - et cetera.
In 24 years I have never heard my dad complain about rent or the fees associated with his credit card terminal.
For those who complain, this is probably why you work for somebody else.
Just saying. >>
Pure and simple...they suck and you'll never convince me otherwise. Personal checks and money orders are fine...what a bunch of bull that pigpal is safer..... chaz
Just another note...dealers really have the power if they want it cause they have the cards. They just have to wait it out...prices for good vintage cards aren't going to keep going down forever. They are at the bottom or near bottom now and sooner or later are going to start to rise again and BIN's (if dealers are patient and smart) will help the market rebound and sustain it... chaz
So, basically, the premise is that if dealers (who control only a slim segment of eBay sportscard listings) join forces, they can elevate and establish higher realized prices on vintage cards. And the examples being used are 1970's PSA 8 commons that are currently selling for $10 or less, but "should" be selling for $30.
Using the 1970's commons as an example and forgetting for a moment that PSA graded vintage commons are driven primarily because of the Set Registry, perhaps the OP could explain WHY something that is relatively worthless and quite plentiful in raw form should realize a consistent and exponential value in PSA 8 graded condition?
Has the OP disregarded population explosion? Supply and demand? The thinness of the marketplace for graded commons?
It is great to think that prices for cards that previously had an inflated value because of limited availability should now, in the face of increased availability and waning demand, be able to reestablish their previously inflated prices under the premise that the owners of a portion of these cards (dealers) could hard-line the marketplace.
<< <i>So, basically, the premise is that if dealers (who control only a slim segment of eBay sportscard listings) join forces, they can elevate and establish higher realized prices on vintage cards. And the examples being used are 1970's PSA 8 commons that are currently selling for $10 or less, but "should" be selling for $30.
Using the 1970's commons as an example and forgetting for a moment that PSA graded vintage commons are driven primarily because of the Set Registry, perhaps the OP could explain WHY something that is relatively worthless and quite plentiful in raw form should realize a consistent and exponential value in PSA 8 graded condition?
Has the OP disregarded population explosion? Supply and demand? The thinness of the marketplace for graded commons?
It is great to think that prices for cards that previously had an inflated value because of limited availability should now, in the face of increased availability and waning demand, be able to reestablish their previously inflated prices under the premise that the owners of a portion of these cards (dealers) could hard-line the marketplace. >>
I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz
<< <i>So, basically, the premise is that if dealers (who control only a slim segment of eBay sportscard listings) join forces, they can elevate and establish higher realized prices on vintage cards. And the examples being used are 1970's PSA 8 commons that are currently selling for $10 or less, but "should" be selling for $30.
Using the 1970's commons as an example and forgetting for a moment that PSA graded vintage commons are driven primarily because of the Set Registry, perhaps the OP could explain WHY something that is relatively worthless and quite plentiful in raw form should realize a consistent and exponential value in PSA 8 graded condition?
Has the OP disregarded population explosion? Supply and demand? The thinness of the marketplace for graded commons?
It is great to think that prices for cards that previously had an inflated value because of limited availability should now, in the face of increased availability and waning demand, be able to reestablish their previously inflated prices under the premise that the owners of a portion of these cards (dealers) could hard-line the marketplace. >>
very good post. The problem is that the OP has no idea as to the dynamics of real world economics or the concept of supply and demand. You hit the nail on the head with regards to low pop commons being primarily driven by the registry. He picked the most volatile market segment to try and make a point with, lol.
<< <i>Damn, the 3rd time this year I'm agreeing with Scott. Well said Sir. >>
Stop it Mickey (and why are you counting) or I will have to erroneously call you out and then realize my mistake and post an apology!!! Or I could just rip you for no reason and run and hide or ignore my stupidity like so many others do on here...
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless.
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
Of course you do! But you've failed to address any points I posed. Instead, you disclaim credit for what YOU said, redirect your position and then "disagree" when presented with contradictory history and evidence. Your opinion, while you're entitled to it, carries about as much weight and credibility as a politician . . . overblown on words, short on substance and fact.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
This BASEBALL cards. Real world economics do not apply to anything is scenario. Lets no be so full of ourselves to think that a piece of cardboard has any value other than what people are either selling it for or what people are paying for it.
Real world economics? Geez, yeah that explains why we have oil coming out every single crevice of this planet, reserves of oil out the bookoo, yet oil has almost tripled in price int he past 18 months.
Sorry, but citing "real world economics" in this discussion is a FAIL
This BASEBALL cards. Real world economics do not apply to anything is scenario. Lets no be so full of ourselves to think that a piece of cardboard has any value other than what people are either selling it for or what people are paying for it.
Real world economics? Geez, yeah that explains why we have oil coming out every single crevice of this planet, reserves of oil out the bookoo, yet oil has almost tripled in price int he past 18 months.
Sorry, but citing "real world economics" in this discussion is a FAIL >>
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
YOU are a dope. Read post of mtcards.... TIME is always on the side of the investor.... can't apply real world economics to cards!!!! chaz
<< <i> You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? >>
I disagree, I think ebay has revolutionized the hobby. If ebay never existed, I don't believe the hobby would be what it is today and compared to what it was like for me when I was younger, (1970's) it is much better.
I didn't have a card shop in my area, so I was forced to order from some catolog. You didn't even know what the card you were buying looked like until it showed up in your mailbox a month later.
I think ebay is great, I can sell the cards that I don't want and buy the cards that I do want and never have to write a check or go to the bank and get a MO to pay for them.
I can buy and sell cards at 2:00 am on weekends and holidays if I want to. I remember when the first card shop opened up in my area. He was closed on Sundays and Mondays and was open from 10am to 4pm. His inventory sucked and so did his prices.
I would not want to go back to those days anytime soon. Have I mentioned that I think ebay is great?
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
I agree that eBay is great. Most of the people who hate EBay are the old dealer cartel members who miss the days of being able to dictate what thei customers cards were worth and what prices their customers had to pay. You know, you sell them a '61 Mantle that they claim is Vg for $25 and then see it in their display next week as 'NM' for $200.
Thanks to grading and eBay, collectors have more power today than we've ever had. I'm in no hurry to go back to the days of relying on Renata Galasa or Fritsch to build my collection.
<< <i>I agree that eBay is great. Most of the people who hate EBay are the old dealer cartel members who miss the days of being able to dictate what thei customers cards were worth and what prices their customers had to pay. You know, you sell them a '61 Mantle that they claim is Vg for $25 and then see it in their display next week as 'NM' for $200.
Thanks to grading and eBay, collectors have more power today than we've ever had. I'm in no hurry to go back to the days of relying on Renata Galasa or Fritsch to build my collection. >>
Well-stated, both you and bunker. Gone are the days of feeling like the mark at the card table whenever you tried to do business with the "old guard" at a show or a shop.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
I agree on the availability issue that Ebay and grading in conjunction made buying sportscards into a commoditity type transaction.
Before grading overgrading, fakes and alterations were almost a guarantee with enough transactions but grading allowed bigger money and more people to feel confident in their purchases.
Now the issue with all of this is that now we are at a realization that
1. Low pops don't stay low pops for long 2. There was alot more post war cards out there in high grade than we ever thought. 3. There was a crap ton more 70s unopened and vending sets lying around that will could eventually kill all card pops.
The salad days of pre 2001 are over. If you are quoting prices from that time period then you are a dinosaur.
Chaz likes to say if a card brought 500 one time and now it VCP's for 250 I want 450 for it is kinda insane. Collectors will learn patience just like dealers and what happens when both sides do the same thing? Nobody buys anything.
Don't believe me? I lived through the late 80s thru mid 90s when vintage was dead at card shows. Priced too high and condition was always suspect. Now it will be condition ok but pricing too high, collectors will find something else to buy.
Hell I know lots of high end wax busters who hate hockey but bust it because of UD not making high end baseball this year. Instead of overpaying for Topps crapp they found something else to take the place of what they wanted. I think it could happen to the set registry as well.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
With the economy in a serious downturn you can't expect people to pay top dollar for run of the mill commons even though they once did. If you don't want to sell at moderated prices it is best to sit on them and hope things improve in the future.
Without EBAY I believe that PSA would be about dead. The registry is what keeps PSA alive. Ebay keeps the registry alive.
How many cards do we have graded to truly collect or keep? About 30%? I think about 20% tops. We all grade alot of cards because of the registry, EBAY. I would not grade any 1970's unless they were stars before all the registry business. Before the year 2000 I wonder how many 1976-1980 cards were graded?
As far as the whole economics with cards..........normal supply and demand does not totally apply. Although we have watched the pops of cards go up and generally the value has gone down. Some examples of certain players in high grade defy this whole scenerio.
As far as dealers or sellers holding out for their prices....this is not smart on commonly traded cards. Cards will generally never be back to 2002 prices. Too many examples have been graded. I believe some dealers will just die with their cards before selling near market value. I'm sure many dealers with huge PSA 9 inventories have some regrets.
<< <i>Without EBAY I believe that PSA would be about dead. The registry is what keeps PSA alive. Ebay keeps the registry alive.
Mickey71 >>
i would ask you to consider what might happen to card shows if there were no eBay, as in, a lot of them might still be around and would help drive the distribution of PSA graded cards, however:
1) there would be a lot of hijinks going on that we might never know about without our local detective operatives, you know who you are....
2) some of us may never have gotten to know Dmitri Young's checkbook.
and
C) everything Mr. Mint says would probably still be gospel.
depends how you look at it, i guess.
the only without eBay scenario i could imagine as negative would be those folks with no access to a sales outlet for their stuff wouldn't be able to distribute their nice cards to people who would in turn have them graded, so these folks would need to hike outta the mountains and deserts to get to a big card show and get hosed by a big dealer, who in turn will overprice the card and sell wherever, eBay, card store, street fair, don't matter......we'll NEVER see it until it's too late.
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
YOU are a dope. Read post of mtcards.... TIME is always on the side of the investor.... can't apply real world economics to cards!!!! chaz >>
Dope? At least I can read other people's posts and realize what they're saying and who they are saying it to and not try to use them someone else's thoughts and misapply them to other comments to avoid the reality posed by others. You haven't answered one question I've asked or refuted anything I've said. You're like the Monty Python "Argument Session."
If you really believe that supply/demand have nothing to do with the past/present/future value of your beloved $30 1970's commons that sell for less than $10, then perhaps you should reconsider the application of the term "dope."
I'll stand by the historic trends of graded sports cards and the relationship between the population, the demand and the future increase of population that will continue to surpass demand. The majority of set builders chased these commons in the earlier days of the Registry and artificially inflated the prices of commons as there were very few "dealers" doing bulk submissions on commons until they realized that there was a marketplace for them that was willing to pay prices that rewarded searching inventory and/or breaking sets or sealed product. As these collectors filled their sets and as dealers submitted more and more product, demand waned and hence, prices dropped. These dealers had two choices... Either sit with the product until another set builder entered the fray and hope they would pay a premium price, or sell them for whatever they could get for their inventory and use those funds to reposition in other areas.
Time favors the collector that is patient. Not the investor! Investors hoarding graded commons are foolish. They'll find their commons will eventually be akin to Enron stock. And how many investors plan on seeing a return on that investment regardless of how long they wait?
I've made my points, and as long as you refuse to do anything but avoid them and twist your replies or misapply someone else's comments that weren't related to my comments, I'll refrain from any further commentary.
Gotta love when someone hits the trigger on BIN's PSA 7's at around $30.....meanwhile your 8's sit at $18 and noone even sees them.....BEST MATCH MUMBO JUMBO WINS AGAIN!!!!
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
YOU are a dope. Read post of mtcards.... TIME is always on the side of the investor.... can't apply real world economics to cards!!!! chaz >>
Dope? At least I can read other people's posts and realize what they're saying and who they are saying it to and not try to use them someone else's thoughts and misapply them to other comments to avoid the reality posed by others. You haven't answered one question I've asked or refuted anything I've said. You're like the Monty Python "Argument Session."
If you really believe that supply/demand have nothing to do with the past/present/future value of your beloved $30 1970's commons that sell for less than $10, then perhaps you should reconsider the application of the term "dope."
I'll stand by the historic trends of graded sports cards and the relationship between the population, the demand and the future increase of population that will continue to surpass demand. The majority of set builders chased these commons in the earlier days of the Registry and artificially inflated the prices of commons as there were very few "dealers" doing bulk submissions on commons until they realized that there was a marketplace for them that was willing to pay prices that rewarded searching inventory and/or breaking sets or sealed product. As these collectors filled their sets and as dealers submitted more and more product, demand waned and hence, prices dropped. These dealers had two choices... Either sit with the product until another set builder entered the fray and hope they would pay a premium price, or sell them for whatever they could get for their inventory and use those funds to reposition in other areas.
Time favors the collector that is patient. Not the investor! Investors hoarding graded commons are foolish. They'll find their commons will eventually be akin to Enron stock. And how many investors plan on seeing a return on that investment regardless of how long they wait?
I've made my points, and as long as you refuse to do anything but avoid them and twist your replies or misapply someone else's comments that weren't related to my comments, I'll refrain from any further commentary. >>
What is this baloney about not answering your points? Why because I don't need a half a page of baloney to answer them? You got your answer when another member said that you can't apply real world economics to the sports card market which I totally believe. BIN's have made and will continue to make their mark on pricing. If dealers aren't willing to part as quickly with their better cards as before by not selling through auctions and using BIN's, most collectors will break down eventually and pay the higher price because there aren't as many PSA 8's out there as you think. chaz
This BASEBALL cards. Real world economics do not apply to anything is scenario. Lets no be so full of ourselves to think that a piece of cardboard has any value other than what people are either selling it for or what people are paying for it.
Real world economics? Geez, yeah that explains why we have oil coming out every single crevice of this planet, reserves of oil out the bookoo, yet oil has almost tripled in price int he past 18 months.
Sorry, but citing "real world economics" in this discussion is a FAIL >>
another brilliant post, lmao. Of course real world economics apply. Cards are like any other item of value. It has a supply and a demand. If the supply is higher than the demand then the price must come down to meet the demand. If the demand is higher than the supply then the price will go up until the demand is met at a certain price point. Of course the dynamics of simply economics are skewed on certain vintage stuff like Mantle's, etc...because the demand will pretty much remain constant even if the supply rises.
Your statement about cards not having any value other than what people are selling it for or buying it for can be said for all items. Plasma tv's once sold for $5000 and now you can get 50 inch plasmas for $700. I guess the plasma makers should have all banded together and kept the price at $5000 even though the demand for plasmas at that price dropped and interest in new technology rose. It's a shame that some people don't get that.
Comments
<< <i>some dealers are essentially fishing for a sucker,
Well said itzagoner, that's pretty much how I see most BINs.
where you cheap bargain hunting dealers and buyers (and you know who you are)
So bargain hunting is a bad thing? How do you define bargain?
I guess I don't agree with chazonomics. >>
I like that ... chazonomics...has a nice ring to it... chaz
where buyers need to do the same...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
<< <i>I think it's a lot like those who claim taxes are too low yet never offer to send extra dollars in with their returns. >>
I have never heard anyone make that claim (other than the politician trying to raise them), but I understand what you are saying.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's a lot like those who claim taxes are too low yet never offer to send extra dollars in with their returns. >>
I have never heard anyone make that claim (other than the politician trying to raise them), but I understand what you are saying. >>
Watch practically anyone from Hollywood rail against "tax cuts for the Republican's rich cronies". Wonder how many of them are hip-deep in tax shelters.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's a lot like those who claim taxes are too low yet never offer to send extra dollars in with their returns. >>
I have never heard anyone make that claim (other than the politician trying to raise them), but I understand what you are saying. >>
Michael Moore is another.
<< <i>...but I'm not about to sort through 1,000 auctions to find the few dozen that are reasonably priced. >>
Why not sort them low-to-high and thus avoid looking at 995 of them?
<< <i>
<< <i>...but I'm not about to sort through 1,000 auctions to find the few dozen that are reasonably priced. >>
Why not sort them low-to-high and thus avoid looking at 995 of them? >>
The problem with that is I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest card. Also, once you get above about $5, you start seeing all kinds of cards that normally sell for less than $5.
Do have cards listed at auction for well below VCP average.
Are they listed at market price? I don't know.
You decide market price. Click on the link in my sig.
Brad
<< <i>Look at it this way. Where would we be without Ebay or Paypal? >>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? It makes me puke...."the most loved way to pay and be paid" ...we don't need them and they should be broken up.... they are a monopoly... chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>Look at it this way. Where would we be without Ebay or Paypal? >>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? It makes me puke...."the most loved way to pay and be paid" ...we don't need them and they should be broken up.... they are a monopoly... chaz >>
Not a monopoly.
I don't agree with their rules that help scammers, but there is very little wrong with their service. You pay to list your product and you pay to accept an easy and fast payment.
In business you have expenses.
Rent - credit card terminal - et cetera.
In 24 years I have never heard my dad complain about rent or the fees associated with his credit card terminal.
For those who complain, this is probably why you work for somebody else.
Just saying.
I have ZERO problem with EBAY/PayPal "fees."
I have MAJOR problems with their "policies."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Look at it this way. Where would we be without Ebay or Paypal? >>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? It makes me puke...."the most loved way to pay and be paid" ...we don't need them and they should be broken up.... they are a monopoly... chaz >>
Not a monopoly.
I don't agree with their rules that help scammers, but there is very little wrong with their service. You pay to list your product and you pay to accept an easy and fast payment.
In business you have expenses.
Rent - credit card terminal - et cetera.
In 24 years I have never heard my dad complain about rent or the fees associated with his credit card terminal.
For those who complain, this is probably why you work for somebody else.
Just saying. >>
Pure and simple...they suck and you'll never convince me otherwise. Personal checks and money orders are fine...what a bunch of bull that pigpal is safer..... chaz
the glut of pricey vintage is waiting for a new home at The Island Of Misfit Athletes.
the best of the best is selling at ridiculous prices and rising.....rich investors are just moving their money to a safer place.
the rest of us might as well be drunken spectators.
<< <i>the board gets dumber with every post that chaz makes. >>
take a hike turkey....chaz
Using the 1970's commons as an example and forgetting for a moment that PSA graded vintage commons are driven primarily because of the Set Registry, perhaps the OP could explain WHY something that is relatively worthless and quite plentiful in raw form should realize a consistent and exponential value in PSA 8 graded condition?
Has the OP disregarded population explosion? Supply and demand? The thinness of the marketplace for graded commons?
It is great to think that prices for cards that previously had an inflated value because of limited availability should now, in the face of increased availability and waning demand, be able to reestablish their previously inflated prices under the premise that the owners of a portion of these cards (dealers) could hard-line the marketplace.
Mickey71
<< <i>So, basically, the premise is that if dealers (who control only a slim segment of eBay sportscard listings) join forces, they can elevate and establish higher realized prices on vintage cards. And the examples being used are 1970's PSA 8 commons that are currently selling for $10 or less, but "should" be selling for $30.
Using the 1970's commons as an example and forgetting for a moment that PSA graded vintage commons are driven primarily because of the Set Registry, perhaps the OP could explain WHY something that is relatively worthless and quite plentiful in raw form should realize a consistent and exponential value in PSA 8 graded condition?
Has the OP disregarded population explosion? Supply and demand? The thinness of the marketplace for graded commons?
It is great to think that prices for cards that previously had an inflated value because of limited availability should now, in the face of increased availability and waning demand, be able to reestablish their previously inflated prices under the premise that the owners of a portion of these cards (dealers) could hard-line the marketplace. >>
I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz
<< <i>So, basically, the premise is that if dealers (who control only a slim segment of eBay sportscard listings) join forces, they can elevate and establish higher realized prices on vintage cards. And the examples being used are 1970's PSA 8 commons that are currently selling for $10 or less, but "should" be selling for $30.
Using the 1970's commons as an example and forgetting for a moment that PSA graded vintage commons are driven primarily because of the Set Registry, perhaps the OP could explain WHY something that is relatively worthless and quite plentiful in raw form should realize a consistent and exponential value in PSA 8 graded condition?
Has the OP disregarded population explosion? Supply and demand? The thinness of the marketplace for graded commons?
It is great to think that prices for cards that previously had an inflated value because of limited availability should now, in the face of increased availability and waning demand, be able to reestablish their previously inflated prices under the premise that the owners of a portion of these cards (dealers) could hard-line the marketplace. >>
very good post. The problem is that the OP has no idea as to the dynamics of real world economics or the concept of supply and demand. You hit the nail on the head with regards to low pop commons being primarily driven by the registry. He picked the most volatile market segment to try and make a point with, lol.
<< <i>Damn, the 3rd time this year I'm agreeing with Scott. Well said Sir. >>
Stop it Mickey (and why are you counting) or I will have to erroneously call you out and then realize my mistake and post an apology!!! Or I could just rip you for no reason and run and hide or ignore my stupidity like so many others do on here...
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
Disagree. chaz
<< <i>Disagree. chaz >>
Of course you do! But you've failed to address any points I posed. Instead, you disclaim credit for what YOU said, redirect your position and then "disagree" when presented with contradictory history and evidence. Your opinion, while you're entitled to it, carries about as much weight and credibility as a politician . . . overblown on words, short on substance and fact.
<< <i>
you'll never convince me otherwise...... chaz >>
Fixed it for ya.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
This BASEBALL cards. Real world economics do not apply to anything is scenario. Lets no be so full of ourselves to think that a piece of cardboard has any value other than what people are either selling it for or what people are paying for it.
Real world economics? Geez, yeah that explains why we have oil coming out every single crevice of this planet, reserves of oil out the bookoo, yet oil has almost tripled in price int he past 18 months.
Sorry, but citing "real world economics" in this discussion is a FAIL
<< <i>Real world economics?
This BASEBALL cards. Real world economics do not apply to anything is scenario. Lets no be so full of ourselves to think that a piece of cardboard has any value other than what people are either selling it for or what people are paying for it.
Real world economics? Geez, yeah that explains why we have oil coming out every single crevice of this planet, reserves of oil out the bookoo, yet oil has almost tripled in price int he past 18 months.
Sorry, but citing "real world economics" in this discussion is a FAIL >>
I could not have said it any better..... chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
YOU are a dope. Read post of mtcards.... TIME is always on the side of the investor.... can't apply real world economics to cards!!!! chaz
<< <i>
You mean feebay and pigpal....we'd have been better off without them...especially Pigpal... did you see their new logo? >>
I disagree, I think ebay has revolutionized the hobby. If ebay never existed, I don't believe the hobby would be what it is today and compared to what it was like for me when I was younger, (1970's) it is much better.
I didn't have a card shop in my area, so I was forced to order from some catolog. You didn't even know what the card you were buying looked like until it showed up in your mailbox a month later.
I think ebay is great, I can sell the cards that I don't want and buy the cards that I do want and never have to write a check or go to the bank and get a MO to pay for them.
I can buy and sell cards at 2:00 am on weekends and holidays if I want to. I remember when the first card shop opened up in my area. He was closed on Sundays and Mondays and was open from 10am to 4pm. His inventory sucked and so did his prices.
I would not want to go back to those days anytime soon. Have I mentioned that I think ebay is great?
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>nice post Bunker!!!
2 current employees of feebay....yuck!! chaz
Thanks to grading and eBay, collectors have more power today than we've ever had. I'm in no hurry to go back to the days of relying on Renata Galasa or Fritsch to build my collection.
<< <i>I agree that eBay is great. Most of the people who hate EBay are the old dealer cartel members who miss the days of being able to dictate what thei customers cards were worth and what prices their customers had to pay. You know, you sell them a '61 Mantle that they claim is Vg for $25 and then see it in their display next week as 'NM' for $200.
Thanks to grading and eBay, collectors have more power today than we've ever had. I'm in no hurry to go back to the days of relying on Renata Galasa or Fritsch to build my collection. >>
Well-stated, both you and bunker. Gone are the days of feeling like the mark at the card table whenever you tried to do business with the "old guard" at a show or a shop.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
Before grading overgrading, fakes and alterations were almost a guarantee with enough transactions but grading allowed bigger money and more people to feel confident in their purchases.
Now the issue with all of this is that now we are at a realization that
1. Low pops don't stay low pops for long
2. There was alot more post war cards out there in high grade than we ever thought.
3. There was a crap ton more 70s unopened and vending sets lying around that will could eventually kill all card pops.
The salad days of pre 2001 are over. If you are quoting prices from that time period then you are a dinosaur.
Chaz likes to say if a card brought 500 one time and now it VCP's for 250 I want 450 for it is kinda insane. Collectors will learn patience just like dealers and what happens when both sides do the same thing? Nobody buys anything.
Don't believe me? I lived through the late 80s thru mid 90s when vintage was dead at card shows. Priced too high and condition was always suspect. Now it will be condition ok but pricing too high, collectors will find something else to buy.
Hell I know lots of high end wax busters who hate hockey but bust it because of UD not making high end baseball this year. Instead of overpaying for Topps crapp they found something else to take the place of what they wanted. I think it could happen to the set registry as well.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
How many cards do we have graded to truly collect or keep? About 30%? I think about 20% tops. We all grade alot of cards because of the registry, EBAY. I would not grade any 1970's unless they were stars before all the registry business. Before the year 2000 I wonder how many 1976-1980 cards were graded?
As far as the whole economics with cards..........normal supply and demand does not totally apply. Although we have watched the pops of cards go up and generally the value has gone down. Some examples of certain players in high grade defy this whole scenerio.
As far as dealers or sellers holding out for their prices....this is not smart on commonly traded cards. Cards will generally never be back to 2002 prices. Too many examples have been graded. I believe some dealers will just die with their cards before selling near market value. I'm sure many dealers with huge PSA 9 inventories have some regrets.
Mickey71
<< <i>Without EBAY I believe that PSA would be about dead. The registry is what keeps PSA alive. Ebay keeps the registry alive.
Mickey71 >>
i would ask you to consider what might happen to card shows if there were no eBay, as in, a lot of them might still be around and would help drive the distribution of PSA graded cards, however:
1) there would be a lot of hijinks going on that we might never know about without our local detective operatives, you know who you are....
2) some of us may never have gotten to know Dmitri Young's checkbook.
and
C) everything Mr. Mint says would probably still be gospel.
depends how you look at it, i guess.
the only without eBay scenario i could imagine as negative would be those folks with no access to a sales outlet for their stuff wouldn't be able to distribute their nice cards to people who would in turn have them graded, so these folks would need to hike outta the mountains and deserts to get to a big card show and get hosed by a big dealer, who in turn will overprice the card and sell wherever, eBay, card store, street fair, don't matter......we'll NEVER see it until it's too late.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
YOU are a dope. Read post of mtcards.... TIME is always on the side of the investor.... can't apply real world economics to cards!!!! chaz >>
Dope? At least I can read other people's posts and realize what they're saying and who they are saying it to and not try to use them someone else's thoughts and misapply them to other comments to avoid the reality posed by others. You haven't answered one question I've asked or refuted anything I've said. You're like the Monty Python "Argument Session."
If you really believe that supply/demand have nothing to do with the past/present/future value of your beloved $30 1970's commons that sell for less than $10, then perhaps you should reconsider the application of the term "dope."
I'll stand by the historic trends of graded sports cards and the relationship between the population, the demand and the future increase of population that will continue to surpass demand. The majority of set builders chased these commons in the earlier days of the Registry and artificially inflated the prices of commons as there were very few "dealers" doing bulk submissions on commons until they realized that there was a marketplace for them that was willing to pay prices that rewarded searching inventory and/or breaking sets or sealed product. As these collectors filled their sets and as dealers submitted more and more product, demand waned and hence, prices dropped. These dealers had two choices... Either sit with the product until another set builder entered the fray and hope they would pay a premium price, or sell them for whatever they could get for their inventory and use those funds to reposition in other areas.
Time favors the collector that is patient. Not the investor! Investors hoarding graded commons are foolish. They'll find their commons will eventually be akin to Enron stock. And how many investors plan on seeing a return on that investment regardless of how long they wait?
I've made my points, and as long as you refuse to do anything but avoid them and twist your replies or misapply someone else's comments that weren't related to my comments, I'll refrain from any further commentary.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not talking about commons that are readily avlailable but 50's 60's and early 70's...as time goes by demand will increase and so will values.. chaz >>
Sorry, but YOU cited the 1970's examples.
To humor you, if demand increases and IF prices rise on 1950's and 1960's commons, supply will rise in excess of demand (why do you think the prices have dropped over the past few years). If you do not comprehend the glut of raw, near mint to near mint/mint vintage material that has yet to be graded, then any further discussion is pointless. >>
YOU are a dope. Read post of mtcards.... TIME is always on the side of the investor.... can't apply real world economics to cards!!!! chaz >>
Dope? At least I can read other people's posts and realize what they're saying and who they are saying it to and not try to use them someone else's thoughts and misapply them to other comments to avoid the reality posed by others. You haven't answered one question I've asked or refuted anything I've said. You're like the Monty Python "Argument Session."
If you really believe that supply/demand have nothing to do with the past/present/future value of your beloved $30 1970's commons that sell for less than $10, then perhaps you should reconsider the application of the term "dope."
I'll stand by the historic trends of graded sports cards and the relationship between the population, the demand and the future increase of population that will continue to surpass demand. The majority of set builders chased these commons in the earlier days of the Registry and artificially inflated the prices of commons as there were very few "dealers" doing bulk submissions on commons until they realized that there was a marketplace for them that was willing to pay prices that rewarded searching inventory and/or breaking sets or sealed product. As these collectors filled their sets and as dealers submitted more and more product, demand waned and hence, prices dropped. These dealers had two choices... Either sit with the product until another set builder entered the fray and hope they would pay a premium price, or sell them for whatever they could get for their inventory and use those funds to reposition in other areas.
Time favors the collector that is patient. Not the investor! Investors hoarding graded commons are foolish. They'll find their commons will eventually be akin to Enron stock. And how many investors plan on seeing a return on that investment regardless of how long they wait?
I've made my points, and as long as you refuse to do anything but avoid them and twist your replies or misapply someone else's comments that weren't related to my comments, I'll refrain from any further commentary. >>
What is this baloney about not answering your points? Why because I don't need a half a page of baloney to answer them? You got your answer when another member said that you can't apply real world economics to the sports card market which I totally believe. BIN's have made and will continue to make their mark on pricing. If dealers aren't willing to part as quickly with their better cards as before by not selling through auctions and using BIN's, most collectors will break down eventually and pay the higher price because there aren't as many PSA 8's out there as you think. chaz
<< <i>Real world economics?
This BASEBALL cards. Real world economics do not apply to anything is scenario. Lets no be so full of ourselves to think that a piece of cardboard has any value other than what people are either selling it for or what people are paying for it.
Real world economics? Geez, yeah that explains why we have oil coming out every single crevice of this planet, reserves of oil out the bookoo, yet oil has almost tripled in price int he past 18 months.
Sorry, but citing "real world economics" in this discussion is a FAIL >>
another brilliant post, lmao. Of course real world economics apply. Cards are like any other item of value. It has a supply and a demand. If the supply is higher than the demand then the price must come down to meet the demand. If the demand is higher than the supply then the price will go up until the demand is met at a certain price point. Of course the dynamics of simply economics are skewed on certain vintage stuff like Mantle's, etc...because the demand will pretty much remain constant even if the supply rises.
Your statement about cards not having any value other than what people are selling it for or buying it for can be said for all items. Plasma tv's once sold for $5000 and now you can get 50 inch plasmas for $700. I guess the plasma makers should have all banded together and kept the price at $5000 even though the demand for plasmas at that price dropped and interest in new technology rose. It's a shame that some people don't get that.