<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
This follows under "c"
When I see a card that "I need" for a player set (when I collected it) I looked into every other option before accepting the BIN price. My biggest question was, "Can I sub a raw version for close to this price?" and for the player I collected, being modern and readily available, I could always sub a card (or two) and get the grade I want at the fraction of the BIN price.
When you are the buyer and fall under category "c" you pay a premium that you will never recover (which is why the card is not "worth" this amount).
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
lol, where do you see more and more BIN's? Where are your stats to support that? What I see when I look at completed auctions is a ton of items in red numbers that never had a bid and the occasional green auction bid or BIN. >>
What is this with the LOL BS??? It's simple ...look at Storm's numbers...if it wasn't working, people would not do it!!! chaz
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
This follows under "c"
When I see a card that "I need" for a player set (when I collected it) I looked into every other option before accepting the BIN price. My biggest question was, "Can I sub a raw version for close to this price?" and for the player I collected, being modern and readily available, I could always sub a card (or two) and get the grade I want at the fraction of the BIN price.
When you are the buyer and fall under category "c" you pay a premium that you will never recover (which is why the card is not "worth" this amount). >>
Bull...you paid for it so it is worth that......!!! chaz
A PSA 10 Jeter just showed up at $25k, clearly this won't happen but what is to keep someone from paying more then $4,750 SMR? Nothing.
If this was an auction it mind end at someprice between $1 and $25,000, with a BIN or best offer at least the seller can review bids and make a choice where to sell it to.
This auction might go for more or less with an auction vs a BIN, but many sellers do not want to take the risk of their card going for much less. Many have more in the cards then the auction prices are going for!
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
Are you disagreeing just to disagree or did you fail to realize the a/b/c aspects. "In dire need" can easily be replaced by "wanting ti bad enough now and not willing to wait."
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
Are you disagreeing just to disagree or did you fail to realize the a/b/c aspects. "In dire need" can easily be replaced by "wanting ti bad enough now and not willing to wait." >>
whatever..the marketplace is changing...no matter what. chaz
What is really funny is that a lot of the CU people saying auctions are the only way to go to determine true market value, are the same ones that if you go to their ebay ID all of their items are BIN and are usually at 250 to 500% of market and if they do run an auction probably have a friend to shill the auction up for them. these are the ones that are piessssed off because no one listens to their start the auction at 99 cents and let the market decide BS.
The market/economy is so bad you could run a 50 dollar bill on BIN with free shipping for $39.99 or BO and it would take 3 to 6 hours to sell it and you would probably get 5 to 10 best offers at 50% or less wondering why you didn't accept their 20.00 offer.
What is really funny is that a lot of the CU people saying auctions are the only way to go to determine true market value, are the same ones that if you go to their ebay ID all of their items are BIN and are usually at 250 to 500% of market and if they do run an auction probably have a friend to shill the auction up for them. these are the ones that are piessssed off because no one listens to their start the auction at 99 cents and let the market decide BS.
The market/economy is so bad you could run a 50 dollar bill on BIN with free shipping for $39.99 or BO and it would take 3 to 6 hours to sell it and you would probably get 5 to 10 best offers at 50% or less wondering why you didn't accept their 20.00 offer. >>
So, you're pretty much siding with everybody else that most BINs are grossly overpriced?
There is a lot of sound advice in this thread on why these cards are overpriced...check it out.
The BINs are overpriced. Just because a seller bought too high, does not mean he deserves to make a profit. Many people have lost their jobs--its not a unique sob story.
I simply keep an eye on the BINs until the last day. Then I email them a counter offer in a polite way. I state that I know they wanted this much for the card, but it did not sell and was wondering if they would take this much for it. Its a buyer's market, so don't be shy about the price you want to pay. I do this and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Just be polite as possible in the email because it is likely the seller paid too much for it, so be empathetic. I overpaid for lots of stuff, but its not worth crying about. Just cut your losses and move on.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
<< <i>The market/economy is so bad you could run a 50 dollar bill on BIN with free shipping for $39.99 or BO and it would take 3 to 6 hours to sell it and you would probably get 5 to 10 best offers at 50% or less wondering why you didn't accept their 20.00 offer >>
I was thinking the same exact thing!!!!! The only cards that seem to do any good are the fake Mantle cards in which the buyer either receives a fake card, or gets ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the mail!! If those buyers run out of money, or get sick of being scammed of FeeBay, I hate to see how much graded card auctions bring in the future!!
I'm not disputing that they are drying up, but the lack of auctions is making it great for sellers that properly list at auction. I don't have time to list a lot of stuff, only stuff I see at a good price with intent to flip quick, but there is a lot of money to be made by someone that takes the time to list exactly what the buyer is getting using good pics and descriptions. The seller also needs to provide great service after the sale and properly represent what the buyer is buying. The best sellers create a following and can get a premium for their stuff. I have 5.0's in every category, top rated seller, power seller and I work a 40-50 hour job along with other business interests. It doesn't take a lot to make money on ebay. I believe part of the problem is laziness and ignorance to the market in general.
bought this for $138 the other day as it was highlighted in another thread that I bought from a seller that didn't include the actual picture of the card. That kept the price down as does listing items with crappy, tiny, or only a few pictures.
This is what I mainly sell, vintage sets that I either put together or upgrade. I bought this one for $1335 and graded a few of the better ones. I've done this with 12-15 sets now and the least I've made is $500.
Nice work. As was mentioned earlier, the card grader is the one who makes the money. Find a nitche like you have and you will know what you are buying and what you can expect to get for it within a range if the cards come back as expected.
when the fish come around to see the shiny lure, they may get curious, but most will realize it's not what they want, because it ain't food.
when the bait drops, they swim to it if they think it's yummy.
the eBay sellers who overload on BIN's think that the shiny lures might bring some of the fish over to their more appealing yummy bait. i can see that working.
but, maybe it's time for eBay to consider a place for all the fishermen with the shiny lures, a separate pond.
Besides collectors purchasing less because of the economy those who used to make a purchase and sit on it a while as prices appreciate now have no confidence in future profits and only purchase at well below market prices. I have noticed the readily available commons I have already purchased have gone way down in price. The tougher low pop commons have either gone down only a little or not at all.
<< <i>Besides collectors purchasing less because of the economy those who used to make a purchase and sit on it a while as prices appreciate now have no confidence in future profits and only purchase at well below market prices. I have noticed the readily available commons I have already purchased have gone way down in price. The tougher low pop commons have either gone down only a little or not at all. >>
interesting point.
what used to be the cherry-on-top is now a great source of importance to some, and suddenly "low-pop" cards(you guys decide the interpretation) deserve an enhanced premium, so the "I got it, how bad do you want it?" theory applies.....it's not so much about demand, as much as desire.
demand requires a lot of strong influences, but desire just needs a nudge.
Tommy and Meteorite Guy both have a point. I sold the 68 set to Tommy because I didn't have the time to deal with listing it, grading it out, etc. It was in my best interest with that particular set to turn inventory. And to an extent I think turning inventory in this market is the way to go if you buy stuff right. My philosophy has normally been to turn it fast, make some buck, and go on to the next deal. Sometimes I'll be like Tommy and seek to maximize my profit, sometimes I'll take a nice cut and leave room for others.
That's what a lot of sellers do not understand with their BIN carp, get your cash flow moving and go get some some fresh inventory. But that's not surprising in this hobby, I have seen dozens of dealers slowly fade away because they cannot grasp the concept of keeping your inventory fresh. That's one reason among many why card shops died and why dealers gripe at shows. Why should I come over to your table when it's the same stuff I've looked at the past 5 shows? The same principle applies on Ebay.
And to Tommy's other point - auctions are more difficult these days, but not impossible. The recent auctions I ran this fall were within 90% of what I would've listed the stuff for on a BIN, which was fine with me.
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports. Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I disagree with Storm on the issue that LOTS of dealers have the cash to wait it out, LOTS of collectors and smaller dealers don't have the cash to do this.
Waiting 2 months to sell a card when you need money next week isn't goint to work for those guys.
I hope that Ebay goes to 100% BIN so that card shows, collector owned websites and collector owned trading sites will take up the bulk of the slack for the hobby.
National dealers can give a rats ass about Ebay right now, just ask them. They have a customer base that they buy and sell to and anything "left over" is whats on their tables or on Ebay. The card show circuit is where they make money buying collections. I would love to see the days return when card shows where the major source of new material for collectors and dealers.
I also love being able to find cards I need on collector sites and not have to worry about Paypal, Ebay crap.
Ebay wants to be Amazon fine, try finding a 1958 Yellow Letter Clemente PSA 8 on Amazon? Well good luck finding one on Ebay in the future as well.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
<< <i>I disagree with Storm on the issue that LOTS of dealers have the cash to wait it out, LOTS of collectors and smaller dealers don't have the cash to do this.
Waiting 2 months to sell a card when you need money next week isn't goint to work for those guys.
I hope that Ebay goes to 100% BIN so that card shows, collector owned websites and collector owned trading sites will take up the bulk of the slack for the hobby.
National dealers can give a rats ass about Ebay right now, just ask them. They have a customer base that they buy and sell to and anything "left over" is whats on their tables or on Ebay. The card show circuit is where they make money buying collections. I would love to see the days return when card shows where the major source of new material for collectors and dealers.
I also love being able to find cards I need on collector sites and not have to worry about Paypal, Ebay crap.
Ebay wants to be Amazon fine, try finding a 1958 Yellow Letter Clemente PSA 8 on Amazon? Well good luck finding one on Ebay in the future as well. >>
Dealers.... if they unite and it appears they are starting to ... really have the power by not selling the good stuff at feebay auctions and by waiting for their price. This is going to drive the price up eventually which is where it should go....if dealers stick to their guns, the fish (buyers) have to come around sooner or later to complete their sets in PSA...you cheap buyers aren't going to wait forever to fill those holes in your registry sets! chaz
<< <i>Dealers.... if they unite and it appears they are starting to ... really have the power by not selling the good stuff at feebay auctions and by waiting for their price. This is going to drive the price up eventually which is where it should go....if dealers stick to their guns, the fish (buyers) have to come around sooner or later to complete their sets in PSA...you cheap buyers aren't going to wait forever to fill those holes in your registry sets! chaz >>
or..... a lot of collectors will cease to be buyers, move on to other pursuits, etc. IOW, get priced out of the hobby. The market is what it is - these things aren't necessities.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>Dealers.... if they unite and it appears they are starting to ... really have the power by not selling the good stuff at feebay auctions and by waiting for their price. This is going to drive the price up eventually which is where it should go....if dealers stick to their guns, the fish (buyers) have to come around sooner or later to complete their sets in PSA...you cheap buyers aren't going to wait forever to fill those holes in your registry sets! chaz >>
or..... a lot of collectors will cease to be buyers, move on to other pursuits, etc. IOW, get priced out of the hobby. The market is what it is - these things aren't necessities. >>
I really don't see that happening at all.... once it's in your blood...it is almost impossible to walk away. Most will pay more to get what they want....if your a serious sports card collector...you won't walk... you'll pay.... chaz
Alot of collectors are downsizing their collections and some of the "good" stuff you see being offered by PWCC or Probstein is coming from those collectors. There are fewer registry chasers than you think.
In some categories collectors could just as easily choose raw, SGC or cheaper sets to keep collecting rather than paying higher prices than they want to.
Collecting sports cards is wide open and collectors seem good at finding things to collect in their price range.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
<< <i>Alot of collectors are downsizing their collections and some of the "good" stuff you see being offered by PWCC or Probstein is coming from those collectors. There are fewer registry chasers than you think.
In some categories collectors could just as easily choose raw, SGC or cheaper sets to keep collecting rather than paying higher prices than they want to.
Collecting sports cards is wide open and collectors seem good at finding things to collect in their price range. >>
C'mon...that is second rate and you know it. We all know that PSA gets the most bang so if you want a second rate collection (ok... SGC prewar is first rate) be my guest...chaz
So, you're pretty much siding with everybody else that most BINs are grossly overpriced?
There is a lot of sound advice in this thread on why these cards are overpriced...check it out. >>
No , I think there a lot of BIN that are reasonably priced 5 to 25 % above VCP or whatever guide that someone uses to gauge the market, but there are some that are priced at 150 to 300% above market.I ignore those. I also ignore the people that offer 40 to 50 % on best offer options. I do my research and figure what i believe is a fair BIN price with a little room for wiggle. I think there are a number of reasons that ebay 99 cent auctions are down: economy, holidays, fear of only 1 or 2 bidders, snipe programs (no bids on an item after 6 days+) ect ect.
Ebay has noticed the lack of auctions and realize that 99 cent auctions will not bring some quality items to the market, this I believe is why in the last few months ebay has been offering 100 free auctions (start at any price), this has brought some quality rare seldom seen items to the table except not at the 99 cent start price, I have some items that I refuse to start at 99 cents because the collector base for those items is very small, (which increases my risk of loss) so with the list at any price free auctions, I have been able to list them at a price I am comfortable with.
Example: I have a box of cards 24 packs list it on an auction for 95 + S/H or BIN for 124.99 free s/h or B/O and get an offer of 65 I counter at 105 least I will take. If it doesn't sell, will break the box and sell packs 2 for 9.99 + S/H end result I still get what I want it will just take longer.
another example:I have a 14k gold watch that will scrap at 140 to 150 my auction start price 149.99 , if it does not sell before long I will gut the watch sell the gold and then list the watch band & the watch guts for a start of 7.99. One thing I won't do is list it at a 99 cent auction and watch it sell for 30 to 50 dollars below the price of gold when i can walk it down the street and get 135 to 140 from the local scrap dealer.
There will always be the low ballers & bargain hunters, and just because item x sold for 25 at the last auction doesn't mean that it is not worth 50, and this is where VCP hurts the market in my opinion , because now the next person wants item x for 22.50 or less.
I remember preselling 89 U.D.for 23.99 a box (Factory cost 18.73 a box) and people (low ballers & bargain hunters) screaming you rip off, I 'll wait till it comes live and buy it for 15 a box.LOL when it became live 1.50 a pack and 50.00 a box, the same people screaming rip off now wanted all the boxes they could get for 23.99 to 40, they just didn't want to pay market value or take a risk on presell.
in 1989 I remember people screaming the sky is falling and now in 2010 basically the same people are screaming the sky is falling. I believe there are great deals out there now as there was in 1989 that if you buy it and wait 5 to 15 years there is a great deal of money to be made, but to buy it now and sell it tomorrow well that is a tricky game.
Not everyone is looking to make a profit on their purchases. I certainly don't mind paying a fair price for a nice card, but 95% (maybe more) of the BINs are o/c, way overpriced, or high priced but low end examples for their grades. Seriously, I think many many BIN sellers don't think a buyer can tell the difference between o/c and centered, and that all PSA 7's/8's etc are created equal. I'd love to see the average age of the BINs on eBay in addition to the volume numbers.
It's great for CHAZ to think that "dealers" could "unite" and have a significant effect on prices, but the reality is that the larger sellers, in total, account for only a minute portion of the sportscards offered on eBay. That would be like asking local farmers to hold firm on their price of corn thinking it will hold true everywhere else.
<< <i>It's great for CHAZ to think that "dealers" could "unite" and have a significant effect on prices, but the reality is that the larger sellers, in total, account for only a minute portion of the sportscards offered on eBay. That would be like asking local farmers to hold firm on their price of corn thinking it will hold true everywhere else. >>
I really think that it is something that is evolving on it's own and has been going on for sometime. I guess it just looks like dealers are "uniting". I think over the long term that BIN's will help the hobby as long as dealers stick to their guns and don't give good PSA 8's and 7's away on vintage. chaz
<< <i>"....I'd love to see the average age of the BINs on eBay in addition to the volume numbers." >>
//////////////////////////////////
That data is out there; VCP could prolly build a graph.
BUT, the "meaning" of the data would not be possible to interpret/define accurately. Obviously, the numbers could be used to support any theory in the matter.
WAG.......
I suspect we would see:
Auctions make up about 10% of listings.
Auctions make up about <50% of sales.
If we drew from that:
1. Auctions are the best way to move merch, we would be right.
2. Auctions are the best way to move merch profitably, we might not be right.
The best and simplest method to determine which listing scheme is "best" lacks the variables that NONE of us can know for certain. That method is - as noted by Chaz - stated in the raw numbers: If BINs did not 'best' serve the sellers' interests, they would not keep using BINs at a 90% rate.
Could the sellers all be wrong? I guess so. But, it's not likely.
After seeing sooooo many disastrous results in 2009 and 2010, sellers that do not need cash have simply decided that sitting on their stuff - via BINs - is more profitable than paying EBAY to help them give it away in an auction system that is so ill-attended that it barely functions.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
After seeing sooooo many disastrous results in 2009 and 2010, sellers that do not need cash have simply decided that sitting on their stuff - via BINs - is more profitable than paying EBAY to help them give it away in an auction system that is so ill-attended that it barely functions.
Amen! Anyone want a Mickey Mantle rookie card for $500?
<< <i>"....I'd love to see the average age of the BINs on eBay in addition to the volume numbers." >>
//////////////////////////////////
That data is out there; VCP could prolly build a graph.
BUT, the "meaning" of the data would not be possible to interpret/define accurately. Obviously, the numbers could be used to support any theory in the matter.
WAG.......
I suspect we would see:
Auctions make up about 10% of listings.
Auctions make up about <50% of sales.
If we drew from that:
1. Auctions are the best way to move merch, we would be right.
2. Auctions are the best way to move merch profitably, we might not be right.
The best and simplest method to determine which listing scheme is "best" lacks the variables that NONE of us can know for certain. That method is - as noted by Chaz - stated in the raw numbers: If BINs did not 'best' serve the sellers' interests, they would not keep using BINs at a 90% rate.
Could the sellers all be wrong? I guess so. But, it's not likely.
After seeing sooooo many disastrous results in 2009 and 2010, sellers that do not need cash have simply decided that sitting on their stuff - via BINs - is more profitable than paying EBAY to help them give it away in an auction system that is so ill-attended that it barely functions. >>
Morning, You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil
Actually Collect Non Sport, but am just so full of myself I post all over the place !!!!!!!
<< <i>Morning, You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil >>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz
<< <i>Morning, You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil >>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
Chaz some of that inventory turns helps people keep the lights on and food on the table so taking a 20% hit to keep the cash flow moving is something most buisnesses do.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
<< <i>I don't even look at BIN's for the most part and I have a feeling that it's that way for A LOT of people. >>
I look at BINs for low value modern set fillers, that's usually about it. I have bought a few overpriced (20% or so) BIN, but the occasion is rare.
Eventually (I mean within 6 months) the stuff I'm looking for is up for auction and that's where I snag it.
Most of my sets are fairly common in the grades I seek, so I have no problems, I also have about 10 projects at once going so there is rarely a lack of stuff to buy.
If the auction sellers go away, that's fine they won't get my $$$. I can quit as quick as I started and not worry a bit about it.
<< <i>Morning, You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil >>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
Chaz some of that inventory turns helps people keep the lights on and food on the table so taking a 20% hit to keep the cash flow moving is something most buisnesses do. >>
Just as long as your not giving them away...... chaz
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Mt you are right, inventory is a function of the asset. Common sports cards can not be compared to all markets, especially precous metals! >>
Exception being Gold Dust >>
thought we were done talking about wrestling cards??
<< <i>
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
This follows under "c"
When I see a card that "I need" for a player set (when I collected it) I looked into every other option before accepting the BIN price. My biggest question was, "Can I sub a raw version for close to this price?" and for the player I collected, being modern and readily available, I could always sub a card (or two) and get the grade I want at the fraction of the BIN price.
When you are the buyer and fall under category "c" you pay a premium that you will never recover (which is why the card is not "worth" this amount).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
lol, where do you see more and more BIN's? Where are your stats to support that? What I see when I look at completed auctions is a ton of items in red numbers that never had a bid and the occasional green auction bid or BIN. >>
What is this with the LOL BS??? It's simple ...look at Storm's numbers...if it wasn't working, people would not do it!!! chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
This follows under "c"
When I see a card that "I need" for a player set (when I collected it) I looked into every other option before accepting the BIN price. My biggest question was, "Can I sub a raw version for close to this price?" and for the player I collected, being modern and readily available, I could always sub a card (or two) and get the grade I want at the fraction of the BIN price.
When you are the buyer and fall under category "c" you pay a premium that you will never recover (which is why the card is not "worth" this amount). >>
Bull...you paid for it so it is worth that......!!! chaz
set a BIN price...
simple...
P.S. - people have been overpaying for PSA 8's for years..by no fault but their own...
now they are finally realizing they overpaid...
oh well...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
If this was an auction it mind end at someprice between $1 and $25,000, with a BIN or best offer at least the seller can review bids and make a choice where to sell it to.
This auction might go for more or less with an auction vs a BIN, but many sellers do not want to take the risk of their card going for much less. Many have more in the cards then the auction prices are going for!
<< <i>
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
Are you disagreeing just to disagree or did you fail to realize the a/b/c aspects. "In dire need" can easily be replaced by "wanting ti bad enough now and not willing to wait."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The marketplace for vintage (pre-1975 for argument's sake) collector and "investor" grade commons is a slippery slope. In essence, the market is driven by short supply when, in actuality, there is a surplus of material. Once a peak market price is set that warrants sorting through commons boxes or breaking product/sets, there is an influx of such items to the TPG's and then a glut that quenches the dearth that previously existed. The end result is lower prices than originally realized.
High grade vintage rookies and key stars are significantly more stable as the volume of submissions have already taken place and the market is much more stable and settled. However, absent continued demand, even these prices would be subject to downward progression. Likewise, super high grade, low pop items tend to have the most volatile price swings as an item may have an extremely limited sales history (as would be expected with a low pop item) and will usually attract the attention of several collectors with deep pockets, albeit, this market is traditionally very slim. As a result, the second or third exposures of the same item will most commonly trend lower than the initial offering.
Are BIN's the answer? Not exactly. They're simply a way for a seller to a.) generate potential counter-offers, b.) protect their investment, or c.) hope for someone in dire need to affect the transaction at the listed price.
While not as readily available as in the past, there are still more than enough set breaks and vintage offerings the occur over any given quarter to satisfy most set builders despite the plethora of seemingly overpriced BIN's. >>
I disagree. And my reason is simple... I see more and more sold BIN's. Collectors don't want to wait forever to get the card they need if it's staring right at them with a BIN. They will pay for it because in many cases they believe it's the true worth of the card. chaz >>
Are you disagreeing just to disagree or did you fail to realize the a/b/c aspects. "In dire need" can easily be replaced by "wanting ti bad enough now and not willing to wait." >>
whatever..the marketplace is changing...no matter what. chaz
What is really funny is that a lot of the CU people saying auctions are the only way to go to determine true market value, are the same ones that if you go to their ebay ID all of their items are BIN and are usually at 250 to 500% of market and if they do run an auction probably have a friend to shill the auction up for them. these are the ones that are piessssed off because no one listens to their start the auction at 99 cents and let the market decide BS.
The market/economy is so bad you could run a 50 dollar bill on BIN with free shipping for $39.99 or BO and it would take 3 to 6 hours to sell it and you would probably get 5 to 10 best offers at 50% or less wondering why you didn't accept their 20.00 offer.
<< <i>Chaz,
What is really funny is that a lot of the CU people saying auctions are the only way to go to determine true market value, are the same ones that if you go to their ebay ID all of their items are BIN and are usually at 250 to 500% of market and if they do run an auction probably have a friend to shill the auction up for them. these are the ones that are piessssed off because no one listens to their start the auction at 99 cents and let the market decide BS.
The market/economy is so bad you could run a 50 dollar bill on BIN with free shipping for $39.99 or BO and it would take 3 to 6 hours to sell it and you would probably get 5 to 10 best offers at 50% or less wondering why you didn't accept their 20.00 offer.
So, you're pretty much siding with everybody else that most BINs are grossly overpriced?
There is a lot of sound advice in this thread on why these cards are overpriced...check it out.
Yep...ebay wants to be more like amazon.com and they're getting there.
I simply keep an eye on the BINs until the last day. Then I email them a counter offer in a polite way. I state that I know they wanted this much for the card, but it did not sell and was wondering if they would take this much for it. Its a buyer's market, so don't be shy about the price you want to pay. I do this and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Just be polite as possible in the email because it is likely the seller paid too much for it, so be empathetic. I overpaid for lots of stuff, but its not worth crying about. Just cut your losses and move on.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>The market/economy is so bad you could run a 50 dollar bill on BIN with free shipping for $39.99 or BO and it would take 3 to 6 hours to sell it and you would probably get 5 to 10 best offers at 50% or less wondering why you didn't accept their 20.00 offer >>
I was thinking the same exact thing!!!!! The only cards that seem to do any good are the fake Mantle cards in which the buyer either receives a fake card, or gets ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the mail!! If those buyers run out of money, or get sick of being scammed of FeeBay, I hate to see how much graded card auctions bring in the future!!
VCP $74
'78 Hunter
bought this for $138 the other day as it was highlighted in another thread that I bought from a seller that didn't include the actual picture of the card. That kept the price down as does listing items with crappy, tiny, or only a few pictures.
This is what I mainly sell, vintage sets that I either put together or upgrade. I bought this one for $1335 and graded a few of the better ones. I've done this with 12-15 sets now and the least I've made is $500.
[L='68 Set]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250719940814&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT">'82 Ripken TT
'68 Set
auction = edible bait
when the fish come around to see the shiny lure, they may get curious, but most will realize it's not what they want, because it ain't food.
when the bait drops, they swim to it if they think it's yummy.
the eBay sellers who overload on BIN's think that the shiny lures might bring some of the fish over to their more appealing yummy bait. i can see that working.
but, maybe it's time for eBay to consider a place for all the fishermen with the shiny lures, a separate pond.
then, the hungry fish can go back to work.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>Besides collectors purchasing less because of the economy those who used to make a purchase and sit on it a while as prices appreciate now have no confidence in future profits and only purchase at well below market prices. I have noticed the readily available commons I have already purchased have gone way down in price. The tougher low pop commons have either gone down only a little or not at all. >>
interesting point.
what used to be the cherry-on-top is now a great source of importance to some, and suddenly "low-pop" cards(you guys decide the interpretation) deserve an enhanced premium, so the "I got it, how bad do you want it?" theory applies.....it's not so much about demand, as much as desire.
demand requires a lot of strong influences, but desire just needs a nudge.
That's what a lot of sellers do not understand with their BIN carp, get your cash flow moving and go get some some fresh inventory. But that's not surprising in this hobby, I have seen dozens of dealers slowly fade away because they cannot grasp the concept of keeping your inventory fresh. That's one reason among many why card shops died and why dealers gripe at shows. Why should I come over to your table when it's the same stuff I've looked at the past 5 shows? The same principle applies on Ebay.
And to Tommy's other point - auctions are more difficult these days, but not impossible. The recent auctions I ran this fall were within 90% of what I would've listed the stuff for on a BIN, which was fine with me.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Waiting 2 months to sell a card when you need money next week isn't goint to work for those guys.
I hope that Ebay goes to 100% BIN so that card shows, collector owned websites and collector owned trading sites will take up the bulk of the slack for the hobby.
National dealers can give a rats ass about Ebay right now, just ask them. They have a customer base that they buy and sell to and anything "left over" is whats on their tables or on Ebay. The card show circuit is where they make money buying collections. I would love to see the days return when card shows where the major source of new material for collectors and dealers.
I also love being able to find cards I need on collector sites and not have to worry about Paypal, Ebay crap.
Ebay wants to be Amazon fine, try finding a 1958 Yellow Letter Clemente PSA 8 on Amazon? Well good luck finding one on Ebay in the future as well.
<< <i>I disagree with Storm on the issue that LOTS of dealers have the cash to wait it out, LOTS of collectors and smaller dealers don't have the cash to do this.
Waiting 2 months to sell a card when you need money next week isn't goint to work for those guys.
I hope that Ebay goes to 100% BIN so that card shows, collector owned websites and collector owned trading sites will take up the bulk of the slack for the hobby.
National dealers can give a rats ass about Ebay right now, just ask them. They have a customer base that they buy and sell to and anything "left over" is whats on their tables or on Ebay. The card show circuit is where they make money buying collections. I would love to see the days return when card shows where the major source of new material for collectors and dealers.
I also love being able to find cards I need on collector sites and not have to worry about Paypal, Ebay crap.
Ebay wants to be Amazon fine, try finding a 1958 Yellow Letter Clemente PSA 8 on Amazon? Well good luck finding one on Ebay in the future as well. >>
Dealers.... if they unite and it appears they are starting to ... really have the power by not selling the good stuff at feebay auctions and by waiting for their price. This is going to drive the price up eventually which is where it should go....if dealers stick to their guns, the fish (buyers) have to come around sooner or later to complete their sets in PSA...you cheap buyers aren't going to wait forever to fill those holes in your registry sets! chaz
<< <i>Dealers.... if they unite and it appears they are starting to ... really have the power by not selling the good stuff at feebay auctions and by waiting for their price. This is going to drive the price up eventually which is where it should go....if dealers stick to their guns, the fish (buyers) have to come around sooner or later to complete their sets in PSA...you cheap buyers aren't going to wait forever to fill those holes in your registry sets! chaz >>
or..... a lot of collectors will cease to be buyers, move on to other pursuits, etc. IOW, get priced out of the hobby. The market is what it is - these things aren't necessities.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>
<< <i>Dealers.... if they unite and it appears they are starting to ... really have the power by not selling the good stuff at feebay auctions and by waiting for their price. This is going to drive the price up eventually which is where it should go....if dealers stick to their guns, the fish (buyers) have to come around sooner or later to complete their sets in PSA...you cheap buyers aren't going to wait forever to fill those holes in your registry sets! chaz >>
or..... a lot of collectors will cease to be buyers, move on to other pursuits, etc. IOW, get priced out of the hobby. The market is what it is - these things aren't necessities. >>
I really don't see that happening at all.... once it's in your blood...it is almost impossible to walk away. Most will pay more to get what they want....if your a serious sports card collector...you won't walk... you'll pay.... chaz
<< <i>these things aren't necessities. >>
yes they are. you <who needs food?> can't <buy my cards> live <you don't need food> without <buy my cards> them, and you know it.
<< <i>
<< <i>these things aren't necessities. >>
yes they are. you <who needs food?> can't <buy my cards> live <you don't need food> without <buy my cards> them, and you know it.
yes they are, yes they are, yes they are........ yes they are !!! chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Mt you are right, inventory is a function of the asset. Common sports cards can not be compared to all markets, especially precous metals! >>
Exception being Gold Dust >>
thought we were done talking about wrestling cards??
NICE EGG
In some categories collectors could just as easily choose raw, SGC or cheaper sets to keep collecting rather than paying higher prices than they want to.
Collecting sports cards is wide open and collectors seem good at finding things to collect in their price range.
<< <i>Alot of collectors are downsizing their collections and some of the "good" stuff you see being offered by PWCC or Probstein is coming from those collectors. There are fewer registry chasers than you think.
In some categories collectors could just as easily choose raw, SGC or cheaper sets to keep collecting rather than paying higher prices than they want to.
Collecting sports cards is wide open and collectors seem good at finding things to collect in their price range. >>
C'mon...that is second rate and you know it. We all know that PSA gets the most bang so if you want a second rate collection (ok... SGC prewar is first rate) be my guest...chaz
There is a lot of sound advice in this thread on why these cards are overpriced...check it out. >>
No , I think there a lot of BIN that are reasonably priced 5 to 25 % above VCP or whatever guide that someone uses to gauge the market, but there are some that are priced at 150 to 300% above market.I ignore those.
I also ignore the people that offer 40 to 50 % on best offer options. I do my research and figure what i believe is a fair BIN price with a little room for wiggle. I think there are a number of reasons that ebay 99 cent auctions are down: economy, holidays, fear of only 1 or 2 bidders, snipe programs (no bids on an item after 6 days+) ect ect.
Ebay has noticed the lack of auctions and realize that 99 cent auctions will not bring some quality items to the market, this I believe is why in the last few months ebay has been offering 100 free auctions (start at any price), this has brought some quality rare seldom seen items to the table except not at the 99 cent start price, I have some items that I refuse to start at 99 cents because the collector base for those items is very small, (which increases my risk of loss) so with the list at any price free auctions, I have been able to list them at a price I am comfortable with.
Example: I have a box of cards 24 packs list it on an auction for 95 + S/H or BIN for 124.99 free s/h or B/O and get an offer of 65 I counter at 105 least I will take. If it doesn't sell, will break the box and sell packs 2 for 9.99 + S/H end result I still get what I want it will just take longer.
another example:I have a 14k gold watch that will scrap at 140 to 150 my auction start price 149.99 , if it does not sell before long I will gut the watch sell the gold and then list the watch band & the watch guts for a start of 7.99. One thing I won't do is list it at a 99 cent auction and watch it sell for 30 to 50 dollars below the price of gold when i can walk it down the street and get 135 to 140 from the local scrap dealer.
There will always be the low ballers & bargain hunters, and just because item x sold for 25 at the last auction doesn't mean that it is not worth 50, and this is where VCP hurts the market in my opinion , because now the next person wants item x for 22.50 or less.
I remember preselling 89 U.D.for 23.99 a box (Factory cost 18.73 a box) and people (low ballers & bargain hunters) screaming you rip off, I 'll wait till it comes live and buy it for 15 a box.LOL when it became live 1.50 a pack and 50.00 a box, the same people screaming rip off now wanted all the boxes they could get for 23.99 to 40, they just didn't want to pay market value or take a risk on presell.
in 1989 I remember people screaming the sky is falling and now in 2010 basically the same people are screaming the sky is falling.
I believe there are great deals out there now as there was in 1989 that if you buy it and wait 5 to 15 years there is a great deal of money to be made, but to buy it now and sell it tomorrow well that is a tricky game.
Oh well off my soapbox or just my 2 cents worth.
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>It's great for CHAZ to think that "dealers" could "unite" and have a significant effect on prices, but the reality is that the larger sellers, in total, account for only a minute portion of the sportscards offered on eBay. That would be like asking local farmers to hold firm on their price of corn thinking it will hold true everywhere else. >>
I really think that it is something that is evolving on it's own and has been going on for sometime. I guess it just looks like dealers are "uniting". I think over the long term that BIN's will help the hobby as long as dealers stick to their guns and don't give good PSA 8's and 7's away on vintage. chaz
<< <i>"....I'd love to see the average age of the BINs on eBay in addition to the volume numbers." >>
//////////////////////////////////
That data is out there; VCP could prolly build a graph.
BUT, the "meaning" of the data would not be possible
to interpret/define accurately. Obviously, the numbers
could be used to support any theory in the matter.
WAG.......
I suspect we would see:
Auctions make up about 10% of listings.
Auctions make up about <50% of sales.
If we drew from that:
1. Auctions are the best way to move merch, we would be right.
2. Auctions are the best way to move merch profitably, we might not be right.
The best and simplest method to determine which listing scheme is "best"
lacks the variables that NONE of us can know for certain. That method is -
as noted by Chaz - stated in the raw numbers: If BINs did not 'best' serve
the sellers' interests, they would not keep using BINs at a 90% rate.
Could the sellers all be wrong? I guess so. But, it's not likely.
After seeing sooooo many disastrous results in 2009 and 2010, sellers
that do not need cash have simply decided that sitting on their stuff - via
BINs - is more profitable than paying EBAY to help them give it away in
an auction system that is so ill-attended that it barely functions.
that do not need cash have simply decided that sitting on their stuff - via
BINs - is more profitable than paying EBAY to help them give it away in
an auction system that is so ill-attended that it barely functions.
Amen! Anyone want a Mickey Mantle rookie card for $500?
<< <i>
<< <i>"....I'd love to see the average age of the BINs on eBay in addition to the volume numbers." >>
//////////////////////////////////
That data is out there; VCP could prolly build a graph.
BUT, the "meaning" of the data would not be possible
to interpret/define accurately. Obviously, the numbers
could be used to support any theory in the matter.
WAG.......
I suspect we would see:
Auctions make up about 10% of listings.
Auctions make up about <50% of sales.
If we drew from that:
1. Auctions are the best way to move merch, we would be right.
2. Auctions are the best way to move merch profitably, we might not be right.
The best and simplest method to determine which listing scheme is "best"
lacks the variables that NONE of us can know for certain. That method is -
as noted by Chaz - stated in the raw numbers: If BINs did not 'best' serve
the sellers' interests, they would not keep using BINs at a 90% rate.
Could the sellers all be wrong? I guess so. But, it's not likely.
After seeing sooooo many disastrous results in 2009 and 2010, sellers
that do not need cash have simply decided that sitting on their stuff - via
BINs - is more profitable than paying EBAY to help them give it away in
an auction system that is so ill-attended that it barely functions. >>
And as usual ,,,,,,BRAVO Storm !!
You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil
<< <i>he who dies with the most cards wins. >>
I love it !!! very true....very true!! chaz
<< <i>Morning,
You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz
<< <i>he who dies with the most cards wins. >>
unless your estate sells them to Mr Mint
<< <i>
<< <i>Morning,
You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
Chaz some of that inventory turns helps people keep the lights on and food on the table so taking a 20% hit to keep the cash flow moving is something most buisnesses do.
<< <i>I don't even look at BIN's for the most part and I have a feeling that it's that way for A LOT of people. >>
I look at BINs for low value modern set fillers, that's usually about it. I have bought a few overpriced (20% or so) BIN, but the occasion is rare.
Eventually (I mean within 6 months) the stuff I'm looking for is up for auction and that's where I snag it.
Most of my sets are fairly common in the grades I seek, so I have no problems, I also have about 10 projects at once going so there is rarely a lack of stuff to buy.
If the auction sellers go away, that's fine they won't get my $$$. I can quit as quick as I started and not worry a bit about it.
<< <i>I don't even look at BIN's for the most part and I have a feeling that it's that way for A LOT of people. >>
Nah..not if you want the good stuff. chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Morning,
You know I've read this whole thread and all I hear about is that BINS are way overpriced, and that may have some reality in that a large percentage are. But there is another portion of the story, Personally my BINS are NOT way overpriced, in fact my Bins are at worst %50-%75 percent of VCP and or SMR and I still have had struggling Sales the last 6 months. We all know the causes, the economy, two many cards being Graded, Blah, Blah, Blah..................
So there are a lot of us that aren't charging 300% of VCP and not getting Sales!!!
One of the positions I've read here is about flipping of Inventory and getting fresh stuff in your Store.....I believe that is a point that seems to be missing in this conversation. This is A-1 sound advice. I can point out inventory in Chumps and Bums that has been listed for 2+ years that hasn't moved that I want for one of my sets, but I am not paying their rediculous price, I have offered over the last two years %50-%75 of there asking 4-5 times and they counter with %15 Off! Frickin' keep it.
If it is me and it sits in my Store for more than a few months (With a few exceptions of course), it starts going down in price in each subsequent Sale until its gone, if it's sitting in my Store...Not Sold, it's Not worth anything, I don't care what your VCP or SMR say!!!!
No Sale, No Money!!!!!!!!!
YeeHah
Neil
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
Chaz some of that inventory turns helps people keep the lights on and food on the table so taking a 20% hit to keep the cash flow moving is something most buisnesses do. >>
Just as long as your not giving them away...... chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't even look at BIN's for the most part and I have a feeling that it's that way for A LOT of people. >>
Nah..not if you want the good stuff. chaz >>
Maybe the stuff isn't as good as some may think.