Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available.
<< <i> More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills) - physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection - hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs.
<< <i> More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills) - physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection - hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs. >>
wha???? markets bounce back and this is a great opportunity to buy but it is drying up....there are only so many of these vintage cards available in 7 or 8..as time goes by... these cards will pass what they were years ago...no doubt...smart dealers realize this.. chaz
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz
<< <i> More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills) - physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection - hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs. >>
wha???? markets bounce back and this is a great opportunity to buy but it is drying up....there are so many of these vintage cards available..as time goes by... these cards will pass what they were years ago...no doubt...smart dealers realize this.. chaz >>
Professionally graded cards is not a market. It is a fad. But if it makes you feel better to play market, go right a head.
What I mean by "fad" is that 95% of the cards that are graded right now shouldn't be. These are the commons and the modern ones.
The main purpose of grading is to guide the inexperienced buyer in their purchase. The second purpose is for collectors to protect their raw cards from damage by preserving them in a holder. Other than these two reasons I cannot think of any other reason for having grading companies.
The fad is in the registry sets, where premiums are paid for low pop cards and commons are slabbed for no purpose whatsoever than to build a set of plastic rather than a set of cards. The premiums are drying up. For most it is better to sub for $5 than pay the higher BIN price -- making these cards sell around the sub fee.
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
My God, you're old! >>
Where are your manners boy???? Talkin' to us old timers this way. chaz
<< <i> More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills) - physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection - hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs. >>
wha???? markets bounce back and this is a great opportunity to buy but it is drying up....there are so many of these vintage cards available..as time goes by... these cards will pass what they were years ago...no doubt...smart dealers realize this.. chaz >>
Professionally graded cards is not a market. It is a fad. But if it makes you feel better to play market, go right a head.
What I mean by "fad" is that 95% of the cards that are graded right now shouldn't be. These are the commons and the modern ones.
The main purpose of grading is to guide the inexperienced buyer in their purchase. The second purpose is for collectors to protect their raw cards from damage by preserving them in a holder. Other than these two reasons I cannot think of any other reason for having grading companies.
The fad is in the registry sets, where premiums are paid for low pop cards and commons are slabbed for no purpose whatsoever than to build a set of plastic rather than a set of cards. The premiums are drying up. For most it is better to sub for $5 than pay the higher BIN price -- making these cards sell around the sub fee. >>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
My God, you're old! >>
Where are your manners boy???? Talkin' to us old timers this way. chaz >>
he called you his God.....but, i think they frown on religious chit-chat here.
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
The time value of money tends to be very low when real interest rates hover in the 1% range.
A couple other points (not directed at bking, just points related to this discussion):
1) The 'market price' for commonly traded sports cards has been set by hobbyists who aren't operating with a profit motive. If you're dealing in commonly traded cards ('73 Schmidts, etc), and you continually sell at the market price, you will go broke. There are no full time card dealers who can consistently sell at the market clearing price for commonly traded cards.
2) As storm wisely said, if BINs were such a bad idea then they wouldn't dominate the listings.
3) Every auction will only hammer at a price slightly higher than that which the second highest bidder will pay. If the high bidder was willing to pay significantly more than the 2nd highest bidder then the seller has left money on the table-- and in some cases, a lot of it. The pertinent question is never 'did I make money'; it's 'did I make as much as possible'. And you will not make as much as possible as long as you allow the 2nd-most-interested buyer to set the price for you.
One of the marketing strategies for grading companies is to have a card in their slab sell for an insane amount.
I'm a bit cynical when I hear someone buys a modern sportscard for over $50,000 in a Beckett holder. Makes me think someone affiliated with that company bought the card.
Another marketing strategy (and one proven to be [g]gold for the company) is PSA's set registry. Now people have a reason to sub commons from modern sets. Through early competition the cards demanded a premium. Now that more modern cards are in slabs, and $4.50-$5 grading services, pops have increased and the premiums have dried up.
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
NOT at a 40 -50 % discount (LOSS) using a damn auction. TVM will never catch up to the losses a dealer experiences selling his product quick because his dollar is more valuable today....give me a break... chaz
What you guys are simply talking about is illiquid assets. Everyone seems to want baseball cards to be liquid assets where there is an instant market and an established price with which easy sale is obtained of your asset. However, baseball cards, heck collectibles in general, exist in a illiquid market. With an illiquid asset, if your intent is to sell quickly you generally sell at a loss to someone looking to achieve a gain. However, if you are willing to wait for the proper buyer for an illiquid asset you can generally return the perceived value of the item.
Auctions are ebays method of fast delivery, which will result in the sale of an illiquid asset below market price except in the event that a qualified buyer with a higher perceived value gets involved in the bidding process. This buyer is generally not purchasing for profit or to make money...
BINs and fixed prices are ebays method of waiting for the right buyer to sell an illiquid asset. When a buyer and a seller sync up in terms of perceived value the sale is made.
Collectibles are not cash, and no book or price guide is the authority. A sale won't be made unless a buyer agrees on the perceived value of a fixed price item or in the case of an auction, a buyer perceives a bargain or the price is below the perceived value of the buyer.
<< <i>What you guys are simply talking about is illiquid assets. Everyone seems to want baseball cards to be liquid assets where there is an instant market and an established price with which easy sale is obtained of your asset. However, baseball cards, heck collectibles in general, exist in a illiquid market. With an illiquid asset, if your intent is to sell quickly you generally sell at a loss to someone looking to achieve a gain. However, if you are willing to wait for the proper buyer for an illiquid asset you can generally return the perceived value of the item.
Auctions are ebays method of fast delivery, which will result in the sale of an illiquid asset below market price except in the event that a qualified buyer with a higher perceived value gets involved in the bidding process. This buyer is generally not purchasing for profit or to make money...
BINs and fixed prices are ebays method of waiting for the right buyer to sell an illiquid asset. When a buyer and a seller sync up in terms of perceived value the sale is made.
Collectibles are not cash, and no book or price guide is the authority. A sale won't be made unless a buyer agrees on the perceived value of a fixed price item or in the case of an auction, a buyer perceives a bargain or the price is below the perceived value of the buyer. >>
So for argument sake, if your selling a vintage set, say 1959 Topps, a nice raw set with some key cards graded, are you gonna let this go at auction .99 cent, no reserve? or are you gonna put this up with a buy it now, best offer scenario?
Or run an auction with a reserve? (doesnt everyone hate reserves?)
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
NOT at a 40 -50 % discount (LOSS) using a damn auction. TVM will never catch up to the losses a dealer experiences selling his product quick because his dollar is more valuable today....give me a break... chaz >>
But your ENTIRE argument seems to be based on the assumption that prices will rise. Can I borrow that crystal ball for a bit?
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
NOT at a 40 -50 % discount (LOSS) using a damn auction. TVM will never catch up to the losses a dealer experiences selling his product quick because his dollar is more valuable today....give me a break... chaz >>
But your ENTIRE argument seems to be based on the assumption that prices will rise. Can I borrow that crystal ball for a bit? >>
<< <i>So for argument sake, if your selling a vintage set, say 1959 Topps, a nice raw set with some key cards graded, are you gonna let this go at auction .99 cent, no reserve? or are you gonna put this up with a buy it now, best offer scenario?
Or run an auction with a reserve? (doesnt everyone hate reserves?) >>
////////////////////////////
LOTS of the folks who say they avoid BINs, also say they avoid auctions with "reserves."
If I was listing such a set, I would likely go with a high BIN and use the B/O feature.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
The comment that card grading is a fad is simply absurd.
A huge percentage of card sales occur at auction either online or in person. The grading system is the only way to differentiate between a cards condition.
If you think it is a fad explain why almost all high priced sales are of graded cards?
I don't think the collecting of low population cards will end either. You can buy a pack of modern cards and pull a 1/1 card. The problem is there are a ton of brands and a ton of different 1/1 variations.
To own an older card that has a condition that is so much stronger then most is a cool thing and becuase people have ego's the desire to have something others don't will never end.
I think over time as more of a set gets submitted that low population cards can actually increase in value at a rate that is substantially higher then many of the key cards.
If you look at the recent SCP auctions check the results of some of the cards against the SMR. Many were dramatically higher and it was not the big names in the sets but cards that are very rare for their condition or print run.
Card prices are a function of supply and popularity and many cards will never recover. There is no chance in my mind that a 1985 Topps Mark McGwire will ever see it's peak values not just becuase of supply but simply perception of him as an athlete. The older cards have in many cases much less supply and the ability to damage one's reputation is much less. I don't see them picking up substantially until unemployment drops but long term I tend to agree with Chaz that many will see higher prices over time.
Someone posted a picture of a card add and I am sure in 1964 many thought $250 for a Honus Wagner was absurd. The same can happen to others cards just on a smaller scale due to much higher print runs.
I am still buying cards agressively so I think there are sets that have further room to move on the upside.
It is one thing to be an optimist and to think that prices will get back to where they once were, I hope you are right. Many, many of the BINs on pre-war cards (pre-1945) on ebay are listed at amounts that the cards never brought at the heighth of the market. Some sellers don't have to move inventory to survive and that is evident in their pricing. Some sellers want to set the market on certain issues. None of that is wrong, the goods are theirs to sell, eat, sit on, whatever. It has always been the case that a little patience will be rewarded on the buying end. Some people (me) prefer not to plow more into a card than I can reasonably expect to get out of it if I want/have to sell it. There is nothing that I have to have.
I completely understand the point of not wanting to give a card away and the risk of an auction scenario. The fact of the matter is most of the BIN prices seem to be set at a considerable amount higher than anything that would approach giving them away on the stuff I collect.
I'm not sure that BINs flourish bc it is an effective way of selling more goods, it is an effective way of lowering/eradicating risk.
<< <i>It is one thing to be an optimist and to think that prices will get back to where they once were, I hope you are right. Many, many of the BINs on pre-war cards (pre-1945) on ebay are listed at amounts that the cards never brought at the heighth of the market. Some sellers don't have to move inventory to survive and that is evident in their pricing. Some sellers want to set the market on certain issues. None of that is wrong, the goods are theirs to sell, eat, sit on, whatever. It has always been the case that a little patience will be rewarded on the buying end. Some people (me) prefer not to plow more into a card than I can reasonably expect to get out of it if I want/have to sell it. There is nothing that I have to have.
I completely understand the point of not wanting to give a card away and the risk of an auction scenario. The fact of the matter is most of the BIN prices seem to be set at a considerable amount higher than anything that would approach giving them away on the stuff I collect.
I'm not sure that BINs flourish bc it is an effective way of selling more goods, it is an effective way of lowering/eradicating risk. >>
Disagree. Like many, I don't think you really know card values. Can't go by the SMR, have to use VCP to get an accurate assessment of the value of a card for the past couple of years. If a good vintage card sold for 500 bucks 2 years ago and it is selling for 250 now, I am going to list it at 475 and take 450. You have these bottom feeding vultures that offer me 200 (just happened) for the card, I just laughed at them and told them I appreciate the offer but no way am I selling, I'll wait and I will get my price eventually. If you are an eager SELLER, you are going to lose. chaz
Disagree and I might know a thing or two about card values. I am not talking about a card that sold for $500 a few years ago listed for $475 now. I am talking about cards that never sold for $500 listed for $1100 and $800 and so on.
edit to add: I have never used the SMR for anything other than some light bathroom reading. VCP is an accurate guide for what I could expect to get for a card if I put it up for auction, nothing more. I have bought cards for over 30 years. Maybe the reason I am so ill-informed is that I am not a seller, only a bottom-feeder.
<< <i>Disagree and I might know a thing or two about card values. I am not talking about a card that sold for $500 a few years ago listed for $475 now. I am talking about cards that never sold for $500 listed for $1100 and $800 and so on. >>
If a good vintage card sold for 500 bucks 2 years ago and it is selling for 250 now, I am going to list it at 475 and take 450. You have these bottom feeding vultures that offer me 200 (just happened) for the card, I just laughed at them and told them I appreciate the offer but no way am I selling,
If a good vintage card sold for 500 bucks 2 years ago and it is selling for 250 now, I am going to list it at 475 and take 450. You have these bottom feeding vultures that offer me 200 (just happened) for the card, I just laughed at them and told them I appreciate the offer but no way am I selling, >>
<< <i>Disagree and I might know a thing or two about card values. I am not talking about a card that sold for $500 a few years ago listed for $475 now. I am talking about cards that never sold for $500 listed for $1100 and $800 and so on.
edit to add: I have never used the SMR for anything other than some light bathroom reading. VCP is an accurate guide for what I could expect to get for a card if I put it up for auction, nothing more. I have bought cards for over 30 years. Maybe the reason I am so ill-informed is that I am not a seller, only a bottom-feeder. >>
Again you are misinformed or haven't been to the VCP site.... there are a ton of successful BIN's and set price sales on there. Oh by the way, I got my first cards in 1961. chaz
<< <i>You want specifics from smuggo, but don't give any in return, sounds fair. I see how you may have trouble dealing on ebay, maybe you should try MEbay.
edit: spelling >>
Who the hell are you and where did you come from???? Not another bottom feeding vulture??? chaz
I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way?
<< <i>I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way? >>
Not into name calling but you started it first with the "mebay". I am just trying to make a point that things are changing and it's not business as usual for bottom feeding buyers and dealers. chaz
<< <i>I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way? >>
Not into name calling but you started it first with the "mebay". I am just trying to make a point that things are changing and it's not business as usual for bottom feeding buyers and dealers. chaz >>
Its seems you are upset with the prices realized on FEEBAY (your word) auctions. You start a thread pointing out how the dealers are striking back by going to BIN with prices from when the market was strong (in the worst economy most of us have seen). You tell us that everything will rebound and the days of cheap high end slabs are over, and the dealers will be reaping the gains in the end. You dismiss many of the valid points that are contrary to your thoughts that have been presented by some on this thread. You ask for specifics when someone tells of whacko over-pricing, but when confronted to show your evidence you balk. It seems you want sychophants, not opinions. So yeah, MEbay seems to fit.
Good luck on top, I'll be down here feeding at the bottom.
Well I will defer to my elders. I didn't get my first cards until 1966.
Prices are relative. If we have a card and we won't accept less than $500 for it, that makes it that value to us.
It's not worth that until a legitimate arms-length transaction takes place and it becomes worth that to someome else.
You are correct I have never used VCP to look up set prices, I don't buy sets anymore as I have most of the Topps sets from 1952 up. Sadly the '52 set stops at 310.
Again, patience is rewarded on both ends. You hold out until you get your price and some buyers hold out until they get their price, the two are not mutually exclusive as with most cards there are numerous oppotunities unless you are collecting genuine rarities (Just So, Kalamazoo Bats, etc.) or condition rarities.
A lot of ebay "listers" maybe it is an overstatement to call them sellers are really just collectors that double as fishermen. If they can get their price they will sell, if not, so be it.
<< <i>I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way? >>
Not into name calling but you started it first with the "mebay". I am just trying to make a point that things are changing and it's not business as usual for bottom feeding buyers and dealers. chaz >>
Its seems you are upset with the prices realized on FEEBAY (your word) auctions. You start a thread pointing out how the dealers are striking back by going to BIN with prices from when the market was strong (in the worst economy most of us have seen). You tell us that everything will rebound and the days of cheap high end slabs are over, and the dealers will be reaping the gains in the end. You dismiss many of the valid points that are contrary to your thoughts that have been presented by some on this thread. You ask for specifics when someone tells of whacko over-pricing, but when confronted to show your evidence you balk. It seems you want sychophants, not opinions. So yeah, MEbay seems to fit.
Good luck on top, I'll be down here feeding at the bottom. >>
<< <i>Well I will defer to my elders. I didn't get my first cards until 1966.
Prices are relative. If we have a card and we won't accept less than $500 for it, that makes it that value to us.
It's not worth that until a legitimate arms-length transaction takes place and it becomes worth that to someome else.
You are correct I have never used VCP to look up set prices, I don't buy sets anymore as I have most of the Topps sets from 1952 up. Sadly the '52 set stops at 310.
Again, patience is rewarded on both ends. You hold out until you get your price and some buyers hold out until they get their price, the two are not mutually exclusive as with most cards there are numerous oppotunities unless you are collecting genuine rarities (Just So, Kalamazoo Bats, etc.) or condition rarities.
A lot of ebay "listers" maybe it is an overstatement to call them sellers are really just collectors that double as fishermen. If they can get their price they will sell, if not, so be it. >>
okay..but there is an unmistakable trend away from auctions. chaz
Well I never disagreed that there was a trend away from auctions. But I don't think that it was the absolute auction format that gutted the card market. The results reflected other economic factors at work. Sellers tired of the results and fled toward the "safe haven" of a BIN listing where the results were far more manageable. It's really anybody's guess as to when or if the market will fully rebound. You choose to be an optimist, I hope you are right.
I would also add that if you are an eager buyer you lose too.
Prior to EBAY you went to card shows, shops and trade magazines.
They had a price and then you tried to haggle from there. They were never exposed to losing cards for low prices.
There are so many factors that influence how well an auction does. You need a good title so a search is easy. Great pics. And you need a strong group of buyers to surface during the auction duration.
With a 30 day BIN you clearly get much less eyeballs but you never give a card away.
In full disclosure I have only sold via auction and have never been disapointed in the results. I do have one item for sale with BIN at a high price simply to see if I can get any bites with no interest in selling at a low price becuase I can't replace the item.
<< <i>Well I never disagreed that there was a trend away from auctions. But I don't think that it was the absolute auction format that gutted the card market. The results reflected other economic factors at work. Sellers tired of the results and fled toward the "safe haven" of a BIN listing where the results were far more manageable. It's really anybody's guess as to when or if the market will fully rebound. You choose to be an optimist, I hope you are right.
I would also add that if you are an eager buyer you lose too. >>
Excellent point and one that I purposely left out of the equation...lol. chaz
I have never been very successful with BINs or BO for that matter.I use the auction method and end up rather succesfull with the results.As far as buying I now go to Sports Lots for most of my commoms and save a good amount of money.I rarely recieve a card that I am disapointed with.You are playing a game of chance as most of the cards are not pictured however like any seller on ebay you do not want to make a fool of yourself by grading a card nrmt and what you recieve is a vg as they do have a feedback section and a record of each seller.
<< <i>I would also add that if you are an eager buyer you lose too. >>
gotta dispute this notion, at least temporarily, as i've just completed what may be one of my best ever weeks of eager buying.....there is a lot more out there than just overpriced BIN's.....i think the attitudes of sellers aren't necessarily those of desperation, but simply people looking out for a good, safe transaction, the collection of funds and then moving on, and those folks have no need to dwell on the activities of the behemoths on eBay.
i recall vividly a similar pattern developing in the early 90's when a lot of people were selling out and it was a great time to be card buyer, the only difference was the hustle factor was enhanced and there was a heckuva lot of phone calls.
like a kid in a candy store, seems like old times are back again.
You misinterpreted my point. I was speaking of being so eager to buy/acquire a certain card(s) that you routinely overpay compared to what the same card can be aquired for with a little patience. These are not rarities we are collecting for the most part. I am an eager buyer if I see something and I think the price is right. I have over 900 feeedback in the last 6 months on ebay, all as a buyer, so I am an eager buyer to some extent. I just pick my spots and pulling the trigger on what IMO are overpriced BINs are not part of the equation. Now if I had been building a sets for years and years and am down to 1-2 cards bf I can put it away, would I pay a slight premium, sure/maybe. I guess when you have been in the hobby for 30 years you get to the point where you don't have to have anything right this instant. Everybody's different, no right or wrong here, matters of perspective.
<< <i>You misinterpreted my point. I was speaking of being so eager to buy/acquire a certain card(s) that you routinely overpay compared to what the same card can be aquired for with a little patience. These are not rarities we are collecting for the most part. I am an eager buyer if I see something and I think the price is right. I have over 900 feeedback in the last 6 months on ebay, all as a buyer, so I am an eager buyer to some extent. I just pick my spots and pulling the trigger on what IMO are overpriced BINs are not part of the equation. Now if I had been building a sets for years and years and am down to 1-2 cards bf I can put it away, would I pay a slight premium, sure/maybe. I guess when you have been in the hobby for 30 years you get to the point where you don't have to have anything right this instant. Everybody's different, no right or wrong here, matters of perspective. >>
we can collaborate on a good point.
i guess what i'm trying to imply as a direct response to the OP, is that BIN's are not the dominant force of the market unless you choose to let them be that way.....instead of bemoaning the fact some dealers are essentially fishing for a sucker, it would be wise to invest that energy in locating what you desire in a more realistic buying environment, one that actually allows you to be competitive and actually BUY something....and you are correct about being patient when it comes to meeting standards for yourself, but some of us need to stay in business, too.
<< <i>I see the days where you cheap bargain hunting dealers and buyers (and you know who you are) hunting for good PSA 8 vintage late 50's , 60's and early 70's .....those days are numbered on feebay cause I see that dealers aren't taking that crap and a beating anymore cause they need the money quick which drives down prices. Dealers through BIN's and fixed pricing aren't taking $12.50 for a good PSA 8 1973 Topps football card for example ...they are doing BIN's for $30.00 which is what the card is worth(and has sold for in the past for 30 bucks) and they are willing to wait to get it..... times they are a changin' ..... chaz >>
A few comments after reading through this thread.
First, I'll be happy to feed you 1973 PSA 8 commons all day long at $30. In fact, I'll be happy to sell most for $10. I barely remember a time when these cards were selling for $30. Maybe for a short spell 8-9 years ago.
Second, regarding BINs, I completely ignore them and search 'auctions only'. There may be some decent BIN prices set around VCP but I'm not about to sort through 1,000 auctions to find the few dozen that are reasonably priced.
Aside from that, there's been some good comments arguing both sides of the coin. I don't consider myself a bottom feeder. I'm willing to pay fair market value which is usually not what SMR or Beckett list a card for. On the selling side, I typically list with a starting price around VCP average, +/- based on the recent pricing trends. In fact, I have 100 listed now...sorry for the shameful plug in the non BST board.
Comments
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available.
<< <i>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills)
- physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection
- hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs.
<< <i>
<< <i>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills)
- physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection
- hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs. >>
wha???? markets bounce back and this is a great opportunity to buy but it is drying up....there are only so many of these vintage cards available in 7 or 8..as time goes by... these cards will pass what they were years ago...no doubt...smart dealers realize this.. chaz
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills)
- physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection
- hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs. >>
wha???? markets bounce back and this is a great opportunity to buy but it is drying up....there are so many of these vintage cards available..as time goes by... these cards will pass what they were years ago...no doubt...smart dealers realize this.. chaz >>
Professionally graded cards is not a market. It is a fad. But if it makes you feel better to play market, go right a head.
What I mean by "fad" is that 95% of the cards that are graded right now shouldn't be. These are the commons and the modern ones.
The main purpose of grading is to guide the inexperienced buyer in their purchase. The second purpose is for collectors to protect their raw cards from damage by preserving them in a holder. Other than these two reasons I cannot think of any other reason for having grading companies.
The fad is in the registry sets, where premiums are paid for low pop cards and commons are slabbed for no purpose whatsoever than to build a set of plastic rather than a set of cards. The premiums are drying up. For most it is better to sub for $5 than pay the higher BIN price -- making these cards sell around the sub fee.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
My God, you're old!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
My God, you're old! >>
Where are your manners boy???? Talkin' to us old timers this way.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
More than a few months??? How about more than a few years!! C'mon, you got to hold out from these cheap skate buyers and other cheap skate dealers who are going to sell your precious cards at a show or relist with feebay at a much higher price !!! Eventually vintage card values are going to go up.... just a matter of time.....just hold out brother..it will be worth it!!! chaz >>
People who want their item gone and cash in their pockets in less than two weeks list items at auction.
Some reasons for wanting item gone:
- move inventory for cash to buy something else (either more inventory or necessities like bills)
- physicaly make room for more items in their inventory or personal collection
- hobby switch (collecting something new / focusing on another area of their collection / leaving the hobby altogether)
When you list the item at auction at a low starting price without reserve you are accepting that that item will at least bring that much. It is an amount you have already agreed to and anything above that should be considered bonus. You sell the card, if a dealer bought it he adds it to his inventory -- everybody should be happy.
The problem here is this: you know what the dealer purchased the card for. This information is the businessman's number one secret and is none of your business.
The dealer has time and patience to keep the card in a box and wait for the right customer, knowing that customer may never come.
It's not that dealers are "wising up" it's that there are more and more average people sitting at home, with time to twiddle their thumbs, buying these cards at auction thinking that they are worth more because they saw them sell at their low pop premium in good economic times, and trying to make money by listing them as BINs. >>
wha???? markets bounce back and this is a great opportunity to buy but it is drying up....there are so many of these vintage cards available..as time goes by... these cards will pass what they were years ago...no doubt...smart dealers realize this.. chaz >>
Professionally graded cards is not a market. It is a fad. But if it makes you feel better to play market, go right a head.
What I mean by "fad" is that 95% of the cards that are graded right now shouldn't be. These are the commons and the modern ones.
The main purpose of grading is to guide the inexperienced buyer in their purchase. The second purpose is for collectors to protect their raw cards from damage by preserving them in a holder. Other than these two reasons I cannot think of any other reason for having grading companies.
The fad is in the registry sets, where premiums are paid for low pop cards and commons are slabbed for no purpose whatsoever than to build a set of plastic rather than a set of cards. The premiums are drying up. For most it is better to sub for $5 than pay the higher BIN price -- making these cards sell around the sub fee. >>
A fad ?? Are you nuts?????? chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
My God, you're old! >>
Where are your manners boy???? Talkin' to us old timers this way.
he called you his God.....but, i think they frown on religious chit-chat here.
anyways, you're respected.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
The time value of money tends to be very low when real interest rates hover in the 1% range.
A couple other points (not directed at bking, just points related to this discussion):
1) The 'market price' for commonly traded sports cards has been set by hobbyists who aren't operating with a profit motive. If you're dealing in commonly traded cards ('73 Schmidts, etc), and you continually sell at the market price, you will go broke. There are no full time card dealers who can consistently sell at the market clearing price for commonly traded cards.
2) As storm wisely said, if BINs were such a bad idea then they wouldn't dominate the listings.
3) Every auction will only hammer at a price slightly higher than that which the second highest bidder will pay. If the high bidder was willing to pay significantly more than the 2nd highest bidder then the seller has left money on the table-- and in some cases, a lot of it. The pertinent question is never 'did I make money'; it's 'did I make as much as possible'. And you will not make as much as possible as long as you allow the 2nd-most-interested buyer to set the price for you.
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A fad ?? Are you nuts?????? chaz >>
One of the marketing strategies for grading companies is to have a card in their slab sell for an insane amount.
I'm a bit cynical when I hear someone buys a modern sportscard for over $50,000 in a Beckett holder. Makes me think someone affiliated with that company bought the card.
Another marketing strategy (and one proven to be [g]gold for the company) is PSA's set registry. Now people have a reason to sub commons from modern sets. Through early competition the cards demanded a premium. Now that more modern cards are in slabs, and $4.50-$5 grading services, pops have increased and the premiums have dried up.
If you paid premium, you lost, big time.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
NOT at a 40 -50 % discount (LOSS) using a damn auction. TVM will never catch up to the losses a dealer experiences selling his product quick because his dollar is more valuable today....give me a break... chaz
Auctions are ebays method of fast delivery, which will result in the sale of an illiquid asset below market price except in the event that a qualified buyer with a higher perceived value gets involved in the bidding process. This buyer is generally not purchasing for profit or to make money...
BINs and fixed prices are ebays method of waiting for the right buyer to sell an illiquid asset. When a buyer and a seller sync up in terms of perceived value the sale is made.
Collectibles are not cash, and no book or price guide is the authority. A sale won't be made unless a buyer agrees on the perceived value of a fixed price item or in the case of an auction, a buyer perceives a bargain or the price is below the perceived value of the buyer.
<< <i>What you guys are simply talking about is illiquid assets. Everyone seems to want baseball cards to be liquid assets where there is an instant market and an established price with which easy sale is obtained of your asset. However, baseball cards, heck collectibles in general, exist in a illiquid market. With an illiquid asset, if your intent is to sell quickly you generally sell at a loss to someone looking to achieve a gain. However, if you are willing to wait for the proper buyer for an illiquid asset you can generally return the perceived value of the item.
Auctions are ebays method of fast delivery, which will result in the sale of an illiquid asset below market price except in the event that a qualified buyer with a higher perceived value gets involved in the bidding process. This buyer is generally not purchasing for profit or to make money...
BINs and fixed prices are ebays method of waiting for the right buyer to sell an illiquid asset. When a buyer and a seller sync up in terms of perceived value the sale is made.
Collectibles are not cash, and no book or price guide is the authority. A sale won't be made unless a buyer agrees on the perceived value of a fixed price item or in the case of an auction, a buyer perceives a bargain or the price is below the perceived value of the buyer. >>
Well said. chaz
Or run an auction with a reserve? (doesnt everyone hate reserves?)
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
NOT at a 40 -50 % discount (LOSS) using a damn auction. TVM will never catch up to the losses a dealer experiences selling his product quick because his dollar is more valuable today....give me a break... chaz >>
But your ENTIRE argument seems to be based on the assumption that prices will rise. Can I borrow that crystal ball for a bit?
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sellers dont HAVE to give their stuff away. Either set a reserve or SELL IT BETTER!! Being a VP of Marketing, I can tell you that the businesses that aren't going out of business are the ones that are doing what it takes to survive in this economy. They ARE NOT just hoarding their inventory because they think it's going too cheaply. They are marketing their services and goods better than the other guy or they are cutting prices to meet the market. If they think their stuff is going too cheaply then it stands to reason that they would be able to BUY stuff cheaper as well. In turn, that would allow them to sell it cheaper. I don't know if Chaz has ever had a course in basic economics or marketing but it sure does seem that way.
That being said, if sellers can afford to sit on their stuff and don't need to sell it in order for their businesses to survive, then by all means sit on it. It doesn't bother me one bit. It does, however, make it easier on the sellers that effectively list at auction because the supply isn't as readily available. >>
Listen Mr. marketing mgr , I majored in mktg at Drexel and I will give you a tidbit from a U of P economics prof that I had at Drexel over 30 years ago and that is............. IF YOU ARE AN EAGER SELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE......that's as basic as it gets so put that in your marketing mgr's hat and smoke it!!!! chaz >>
Feel free to ask that prof about TVM. Often times the money that comes from a sale is FAR more valuable than inventory that mAY or MAY NOT appreciate. >>
NOT at a 40 -50 % discount (LOSS) using a damn auction. TVM will never catch up to the losses a dealer experiences selling his product quick because his dollar is more valuable today....give me a break... chaz >>
But your ENTIRE argument seems to be based on the assumption that prices will rise. Can I borrow that crystal ball for a bit? >>
Yes they will....over time....chaz
<< <i>So for argument sake, if your selling a vintage set, say 1959 Topps, a nice raw set with some key cards graded, are you gonna let this go at auction .99 cent, no reserve? or are you gonna put this up with a buy it now, best offer scenario?
Or run an auction with a reserve? (doesnt everyone hate reserves?) >>
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LOTS of the folks who say they avoid BINs, also say
they avoid auctions with "reserves."
If I was listing such a set, I would likely go with a high
BIN and use the B/O feature.
<< <i>what color is the sky where you are? >>
I prefer to be an optimist....chaz
A huge percentage of card sales occur at auction either online or in person. The grading system is the only way to differentiate between a cards condition.
If you think it is a fad explain why almost all high priced sales are of graded cards?
I don't think the collecting of low population cards will end either. You can buy a pack of modern cards and pull a 1/1 card. The problem is there are a ton of brands and a ton of different 1/1 variations.
To own an older card that has a condition that is so much stronger then most is a cool thing and becuase people have ego's the desire to have something others don't will never end.
I think over time as more of a set gets submitted that low population cards can actually increase in value at a rate that is substantially higher then many of the key cards.
If you look at the recent SCP auctions check the results of some of the cards against the SMR. Many were dramatically higher and it was not the big names in the sets but cards that are very rare for their condition or print run.
Card prices are a function of supply and popularity and many cards will never recover. There is no chance in my mind that a 1985 Topps Mark McGwire will ever see it's peak values not just becuase of supply but simply perception of him as an athlete. The older cards have in many cases much less supply and the ability to damage one's reputation is much less. I don't see them picking up substantially until unemployment drops but long term I tend to agree with Chaz that many will see higher prices over time.
Someone posted a picture of a card add and I am sure in 1964 many thought $250 for a Honus Wagner was absurd. The same can happen to others cards just on a smaller scale due to much higher print runs.
I am still buying cards agressively so I think there are sets that have further room to move on the upside.
I completely understand the point of not wanting to give a card away and the risk of an auction scenario. The fact of the matter is most of the BIN prices seem to be set at a considerable amount higher than anything that would approach giving them away on the stuff I collect.
I'm not sure that BINs flourish bc it is an effective way of selling more goods, it is an effective way of lowering/eradicating risk.
<< <i>It is one thing to be an optimist and to think that prices will get back to where they once were, I hope you are right. Many, many of the BINs on pre-war cards (pre-1945) on ebay are listed at amounts that the cards never brought at the heighth of the market. Some sellers don't have to move inventory to survive and that is evident in their pricing. Some sellers want to set the market on certain issues. None of that is wrong, the goods are theirs to sell, eat, sit on, whatever. It has always been the case that a little patience will be rewarded on the buying end. Some people (me) prefer not to plow more into a card than I can reasonably expect to get out of it if I want/have to sell it. There is nothing that I have to have.
I completely understand the point of not wanting to give a card away and the risk of an auction scenario. The fact of the matter is most of the BIN prices seem to be set at a considerable amount higher than anything that would approach giving them away on the stuff I collect.
I'm not sure that BINs flourish bc it is an effective way of selling more goods, it is an effective way of lowering/eradicating risk. >>
Disagree. Like many, I don't think you really know card values. Can't go by the SMR, have to use VCP to get an accurate assessment of the value of a card for the past couple of years. If a good vintage card sold for 500 bucks 2 years ago and it is selling for 250 now, I am going to list it at 475 and take 450. You have these bottom feeding vultures that offer me 200 (just happened) for the card, I just laughed at them and told them I appreciate the offer but no way am I selling, I'll wait and I will get my price eventually. If you are an eager SELLER, you are going to lose. chaz
edit to add: I have never used the SMR for anything other than some light bathroom reading. VCP is an accurate guide for what I could expect to get for a card if I put it up for auction, nothing more. I have bought cards for over 30 years. Maybe the reason I am so ill-informed is that I am not a seller, only a bottom-feeder.
<< <i>Disagree and I might know a thing or two about card values. I am not talking about a card that sold for $500 a few years ago listed for $475 now. I am talking about cards that never sold for $500 listed for $1100 and $800 and so on. >>
Can you give me some examples?? chaz
If a good vintage card sold for 500 bucks 2 years ago and it is selling for 250 now, I am going to list it at 475 and take 450. You have these bottom feeding vultures that offer me 200 (just happened) for the card, I just laughed at them and told them I appreciate the offer but no way am I selling,
<< <i>What card is this?
If a good vintage card sold for 500 bucks 2 years ago and it is selling for 250 now, I am going to list it at 475 and take 450. You have these bottom feeding vultures that offer me 200 (just happened) for the card, I just laughed at them and told them I appreciate the offer but no way am I selling, >>
Take a guess...chaz
<< <i>Disagree and I might know a thing or two about card values. I am not talking about a card that sold for $500 a few years ago listed for $475 now. I am talking about cards that never sold for $500 listed for $1100 and $800 and so on.
edit to add: I have never used the SMR for anything other than some light bathroom reading. VCP is an accurate guide for what I could expect to get for a card if I put it up for auction, nothing more. I have bought cards for over 30 years. Maybe the reason I am so ill-informed is that I am not a seller, only a bottom-feeder.
Again you are misinformed or haven't been to the VCP site.... there are a ton of successful BIN's and set price sales on there. Oh by the way, I got my first cards in 1961. chaz
edit: spelling
<< <i>You want specifics from smuggo, but don't give any in return, sounds fair. I see how you may have trouble dealing on ebay, maybe you should try MEbay.
edit: spelling >>
Who the hell are you and where did you come from???? Not another bottom feeding vulture??? chaz
<< <i>I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way? >>
Not into name calling but you started it first with the "mebay". I am just trying to make a point that things are changing and it's not business as usual for bottom feeding buyers and dealers. chaz
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<< <i>I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way? >>
Not into name calling but you started it first with the "mebay". I am just trying to make a point that things are changing and it's not business as usual for bottom feeding buyers and dealers. chaz >>
Its seems you are upset with the prices realized on FEEBAY (your word) auctions. You start a thread pointing out how the dealers are striking back by going to BIN with prices from when the market was strong (in the worst economy most of us have seen). You tell us that everything will rebound and the days of cheap high end slabs are over, and the dealers will be reaping the gains in the end. You dismiss many of the valid points that are contrary to your thoughts that have been presented by some on this thread. You ask for specifics when someone tells of whacko over-pricing, but when confronted to show your evidence you balk. It seems you want sychophants, not opinions. So yeah, MEbay seems to fit.
Good luck on top, I'll be down here feeding at the bottom.
Prices are relative. If we have a card and we won't accept less than $500 for it, that makes it that value to us.
It's not worth that until a legitimate arms-length transaction takes place and it becomes worth that to someome else.
You are correct I have never used VCP to look up set prices, I don't buy sets anymore as I have most of the Topps sets from 1952 up. Sadly the '52 set stops at 310.
Again, patience is rewarded on both ends. You hold out until you get your price and some buyers hold out until they get their price, the two are not mutually exclusive as with most cards there are numerous oppotunities unless you are collecting genuine rarities (Just So, Kalamazoo Bats, etc.) or condition rarities.
A lot of ebay "listers" maybe it is an overstatement to call them sellers are really just collectors that double as fishermen. If they can get their price they will sell, if not, so be it.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I've been here and elsewhere awhile, I buy for the price I want and don't whine about it. I sell for whatever I get and don't whine about that either. Call me whatever you like, but most I've had transactions with here and on Ebay are quite pleased with the transactions. Anymore names you'd like to throw my way? >>
Not into name calling but you started it first with the "mebay". I am just trying to make a point that things are changing and it's not business as usual for bottom feeding buyers and dealers. chaz >>
Its seems you are upset with the prices realized on FEEBAY (your word) auctions. You start a thread pointing out how the dealers are striking back by going to BIN with prices from when the market was strong (in the worst economy most of us have seen). You tell us that everything will rebound and the days of cheap high end slabs are over, and the dealers will be reaping the gains in the end. You dismiss many of the valid points that are contrary to your thoughts that have been presented by some on this thread. You ask for specifics when someone tells of whacko over-pricing, but when confronted to show your evidence you balk. It seems you want sychophants, not opinions. So yeah, MEbay seems to fit.
Good luck on top, I'll be down here feeding at the bottom. >>
whatever..hope you feel better. chaz
<< <i>Well I will defer to my elders. I didn't get my first cards until 1966.
Prices are relative. If we have a card and we won't accept less than $500 for it, that makes it that value to us.
It's not worth that until a legitimate arms-length transaction takes place and it becomes worth that to someome else.
You are correct I have never used VCP to look up set prices, I don't buy sets anymore as I have most of the Topps sets from 1952 up. Sadly the '52 set stops at 310.
Again, patience is rewarded on both ends. You hold out until you get your price and some buyers hold out until they get their price, the two are not mutually exclusive as with most cards there are numerous oppotunities unless you are collecting genuine rarities (Just So, Kalamazoo Bats, etc.) or condition rarities.
A lot of ebay "listers" maybe it is an overstatement to call them sellers are really just collectors that double as fishermen. If they can get their price they will sell, if not, so be it. >>
okay..but there is an unmistakable trend away from auctions. chaz
Actually I feel about the same, but thanks for your thoughts.
Take care, Rob
<< <i>"whatever..hope you feel better. chaz "
Actually I feel about the same, but thanks for your thoughts.
Take care, Rob >>
No problem. You take care as well. chaz
I would also add that if you are an eager buyer you lose too.
They had a price and then you tried to haggle from there. They were never exposed to losing cards for low prices.
There are so many factors that influence how well an auction does. You need a good title so a search is easy. Great pics. And you need a strong group of buyers to surface during the auction duration.
With a 30 day BIN you clearly get much less eyeballs but you never give a card away.
In full disclosure I have only sold via auction and have never been disapointed in the results. I do have one item for sale with BIN at a high price simply to see if I can get any bites with no interest in selling at a low price becuase I can't replace the item.
<< <i>Well I never disagreed that there was a trend away from auctions. But I don't think that it was the absolute auction format that gutted the card market. The results reflected other economic factors at work. Sellers tired of the results and fled toward the "safe haven" of a BIN listing where the results were far more manageable. It's really anybody's guess as to when or if the market will fully rebound. You choose to be an optimist, I hope you are right.
I would also add that if you are an eager buyer you lose too. >>
Excellent point and one that I purposely left out of the equation...lol. chaz
<< <i>
My God, you're old! >>
Where are your manners boy???? Talkin' to us old timers this way.
Get off my lawn!!
<< <i>I would also add that if you are an eager buyer you lose too. >>
gotta dispute this notion, at least temporarily, as i've just completed what may be one of my best ever weeks of eager buying.....there is a lot more out there than just overpriced BIN's.....i think the attitudes of sellers aren't necessarily those of desperation, but simply people looking out for a good, safe transaction, the collection of funds and then moving on, and those folks have no need to dwell on the activities of the behemoths on eBay.
i recall vividly a similar pattern developing in the early 90's when a lot of people were selling out and it was a great time to be card buyer, the only difference was the hustle factor was enhanced and there was a heckuva lot of phone calls.
like a kid in a candy store, seems like old times are back again.
<< <i>You misinterpreted my point. I was speaking of being so eager to buy/acquire a certain card(s) that you routinely overpay compared to what the same card can be aquired for with a little patience. These are not rarities we are collecting for the most part. I am an eager buyer if I see something and I think the price is right. I have over 900 feeedback in the last 6 months on ebay, all as a buyer, so I am an eager buyer to some extent. I just pick my spots and pulling the trigger on what IMO are overpriced BINs are not part of the equation. Now if I had been building a sets for years and years and am down to 1-2 cards bf I can put it away, would I pay a slight premium, sure/maybe. I guess when you have been in the hobby for 30 years you get to the point where you don't have to have anything right this instant. Everybody's different, no right or wrong here, matters of perspective. >>
we can collaborate on a good point.
i guess what i'm trying to imply as a direct response to the OP, is that BIN's are not the dominant force of the market unless you choose to let them be that way.....instead of bemoaning the fact some dealers are essentially fishing for a sucker, it would be wise to invest that energy in locating what you desire in a more realistic buying environment, one that actually allows you to be competitive and actually BUY something....and you are correct about being patient when it comes to meeting standards for yourself, but some of us need to stay in business, too.
<< <i>I see the days where you cheap bargain hunting dealers and buyers (and you know who you are) hunting for good PSA 8 vintage late 50's , 60's and early 70's .....those days are numbered on feebay cause I see that dealers aren't taking that crap and a beating anymore cause they need the money quick which drives down prices. Dealers through BIN's and fixed pricing aren't taking $12.50 for a good PSA 8 1973 Topps football card for example ...they are doing BIN's for $30.00 which is what the card is worth(and has sold for in the past for 30 bucks) and they are willing to wait to get it..... times they are a changin' ..... chaz >>
A few comments after reading through this thread.
First, I'll be happy to feed you 1973 PSA 8 commons all day long at $30. In fact, I'll be happy to sell most for $10. I barely remember a time when these cards were selling for $30. Maybe for a short spell 8-9 years ago.
Second, regarding BINs, I completely ignore them and search 'auctions only'. There may be some decent BIN prices set around VCP but I'm not about to sort through 1,000 auctions to find the few dozen that are reasonably priced.
Aside from that, there's been some good comments arguing both sides of the coin. I don't consider myself a bottom feeder. I'm willing to pay fair market value which is usually not what SMR or Beckett list a card for. On the selling side, I typically list with a starting price around VCP average, +/- based on the recent pricing trends. In fact, I have 100 listed now...sorry for the shameful plug in the non BST board.
Well said itzagoner, that's pretty much how I see most BINs.
where you cheap bargain hunting dealers and buyers (and you know who you are)
So bargain hunting is a bad thing? How do you define bargain?
I guess I don't agree with chazonomics.
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>some dealers are essentially fishing for a sucker,
Well said itzagoner, that's pretty much how I see most BINs.
where you cheap bargain hunting dealers and buyers (and you know who you are)
So bargain hunting is a bad thing? How do you define bargain?
I guess I don't agree with chazonomics. >>
I think it's a lot like those who claim taxes are too low yet never offer to send extra dollars in with their returns.