I picked up this coin at a local coin show on Friday:
Brazil 2000 Reis 1865
Silver, 37.0 mm, 25.33 gm
Obverse: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (In This Sign, Conquer)
Reverse: PETRUS II D.G. CONST IMP ET PERP BRAS DEF 1865
(Peter II, by the Grace of God, Constitutional Emperor and Perpetual Defender of Brazil)
Pedro II was the last king of Brazil and reigned from 1831 to 1889.
Not a coin, but another medal. And actually a US medal, but awarded to a very famous Mexican-American numismatist--Dr. Alberto Francisco Pradeau Aviles (1894-1980)--by the American Numismatic Society.
Dr. Pradeau is considered by many to be the foremost researcher on Mexican numismatics. He was a dentist in Los Angeles and wrote several important books on Mexican numismatics. His extensive collection of Mexican coins was sold in a series of three sales in 1970-1 by Superior Stamp and Coin (the Goldbergs).
He won the ANS' highest honor, the Archer Milton Huntington Medal in 1945. This example is his personal award medal and is named to him on the reverse.
I have never seen a silver example sold in public auction, and they are supposedly quite scarce. These tone strangely, perhaps due to their finish, so this example is quite nice, though of low relief typical of the era when the medal was designed (1908).
I will add links to the three Superior Pradeau sales once the NNP comes back online. But I believe Pradeau I was the first ever Superior auction.
A few parts to this post. First I'm excited to add this 2 reales from 1832 to my collection. Minted in Honduras this coin is much scarcer than the 1831 date. There are two obverse dies for the 1832 CAR issue, one of which is seen here:
For fun, we can also look at the 1831 coins and see three different examples of obverse die used. One way to tell them apart is to look at where the mountain's left edge touches the legend, either touching the B (first pic), Beneath the U (second pic) or in the center of the U (third pic). You can also look at where the sun's rays touches DE AM
Finally there is also a similar type from 1832 featuring a different legend, indicating it is provisional money instead of saying Republica Del Centro De Amer. It appears these are available dated 1832 or 1833 and again 1832 appears the scarcer date.
I imagine that all collectors of Mexican Revolution coinage already know this, but just in case you do not.
The Puebla "Tetela del Oro y Ocampo" 1915 2c (KM-759, GB-394) was restruck in modern times from the original dies. Note the rusty dies on the restrikes.
When buying an example, make sure you buy an original striking. PCGS denotes this, but NGC seems not to do so. And Stacks Bowers doesn't seem to indicate this either (probably due to NGC not mentioning it on their holder).
I have owned the dies for these for 25 years, but I did not do the restrikes. They were restruck way before then, and in large quantity. (The dies were on display at the "Viva la Revolucion" exhibit at the ANA in the early 2000s, but didn't make the book [exhibition catalog] due to screw-ups at the ANA.)
Also note there exist several denominations of Tetela del Oro y Ocampo coinage that are struck off-metal and/or uniface. These may have been restrikes too, but needs further investigation. Do not pay a lot for these!
@Euclid said:
A few parts to this post. First I'm excited to add this 2 reales from 1832 to my collection. Minted in Honduras this coin is much scarcer than the 1831 date. There are two obverse dies for the 1832 CAR issue, one of which is seen here:
For fun, we can also look at the 1831 coins and see three different examples of obverse die used. One way to tell them apart is to look at where the mountain's left edge touches the legend, either touching the B (first pic), Beneath the U (second pic) or in the center of the U (third pic). You can also look at where the sun's rays touches DE AM
Finally there is also a similar type from 1832 featuring a different legend, indicating it is provisional money instead of saying Republica Del Centro De Amer. It appears these are available dated 1832 or 1833 and again 1832 appears the scarcer date.
That's fascinating. Funny enough I wasn't even looking at the lettering and was thinking you meant at the base of the mountain on the right side as a tell. Which exits frame right rather than down. Still a difference but certainly not as easy to identify with lol.
@pruebas said:
I imagine that all collectors of Mexican Revolution coinage already know this, but just in case you do not.
The Puebla "Tetela del Oro y Ocampo" 1915 2c (KM-759, GB-394) was restruck in modern times from the original dies. Note the rusty dies on the restrikes.
When buying an example, make sure you buy an original striking. PCGS denotes this, but NGC seems not to do so. And Stacks Bowers doesn't seem to indicate this either (probably due to NGC not mentioning it on their holder).
I have owned the dies for these for 25 years, but I did not do the restrikes. They were restruck way before then, and in large quantity. (The dies were on display at the "Viva la Revolucion" exhibit at the ANA in the early 2000s, but didn't make the book [exhibition catalog] due to screw-ups at the ANA.)
Also note there exist several denominations of Tetela del Oro y Ocampo coinage that are struck off-metal and/or uniface. These may have been restrikes too, but needs further investigation. Do not pay a lot for these!
that's great to know! I had one of these recently and sold it. Had to go back and review the images to see but fortunately it was just a restrike. Now I know for next time!
Here's two I was very pleased to pick up for my collection. Unsure the direction I am going just yet but they were too nice to pass up.
Very nice looking 2 reales!!! If I may suggest do not be tempted to go outside your area of collecting there is simply to many temptations when it comes to Latin American/Mexican coins. The series you are doing is a great looking series try to finish that off or close to it before opening another door. I was all over the place the first year of collecting but now just focus on 1 reales (early milled series) maybe one day when it becomes much slower adding new coins I will myself open a new door but till then the focus will remain 1 reales.
Unless you have lots of funds then by all means collect another series while doing the 2 reales. Best to be a specialist than been all over the place. With the 2 reales Mexico if you add collecting varieties of the series you will be busy for a long long time and you may end up having the best known collection of that series out there or close to it in the long run.
Remember the milled 1732's are not cheap or easy to locate (minus the 8 reales rarity wise). Once you own a milled 1732 then best to stick with that series. The milled 1732 2 reales Mexico is not an easy coin to find but one will show up over time just like one did not long ago on eBay (the link I sent you via PM but was to late it had already sold before I saw it myself).
A few new additions from yesterday's Stacks sale of the remainder (i think) of the Phil Rutherford collection. Overall very interesting bidding. I felt that a lot of the "Details" coins and more common dates underperformed and some of the rarer varieties set new records. I added a few tougher dates and also picked up a few pieces that i thought went for a decent price for what the coins were.
1801/0-Mo FM 8 Reales PCGS VF25. Overpaid for it, but it's a tough variety, especially straight graded, and it completes my 1801 date/variety group (1801-FM (common), 1801-FT (common), 1801-FT/M (common), 1801/0-FM (R3), 1801/0-FT/M (R3), 1801/0-FT (R4))
1811/0-Mo HJ 8 Reales PCGS MS61. A nice pleasant example of this overdate variety with a touch of toning.
1814-Mo JJ 8 Reales PCGS AU53. This is actually a 4/3 overdate that PCGS missed. It also went for a song, so win-win.
1816/5-Mo JJ 8 Reales PCGS AU58. Beautifully toned and a top pop coin.
I got a few yesterday from Stacks, here are two of them.
I was quite flustered with the Tauler y Fau auction at the same time. I feel like my decision making was compromised 😂 Trying to watch two auctions at once was...interesting, especially while I'm trying to work. 😬
I benefited from a strange coincidence after my last post on 2 reales, namely that I came across another shortly after posting! This is the 1832 Honduras provisional silver 2 reales and I'm extremely grateful to a friend of mine who showed me it for sale.
Graded XF45, it's comparable in quality to the Richard Stuart Collection example, which is XF40, and I feel very lucky to have coins of the same caliber as Stuart in my collection. I think the fact that Stuart could not find one nicer than XF speaks to the absolute and conditional rarity of this issue.
It's graded as a Central American Republic instead of Honduras so the Stuart example still says none finer when you look up its certification. I'm not sure if this was a mistake or if this is just inconsistency on the part of the grader. The Richard Stuart gallery has the coin under Central American Republic, but the slab itself for that same coin says Honduras.
Given that there are two issues for the same year, one whose legend says Central American Republic, and the other whose legend says State of Honduras, it seems to me like the former should be CAR and the latter should be Honduras. I'm not sure I will bother reholdering since the coin speaks for itself, but I'm wondering if any expert could chime in on this point for my general knowledge. In A Monetary History of Central America, Brian Stickney speculates that the legend change was due to a debasing of the silver content, meaning the coins were no longer meeting CAR legal specifications.
Here's a neat pick-up from today's Sedwick sale. It's an 1809 Mexico 8 Reales with an unattributed TH/HJ over-assayer. This is probably the best example of this rare over-assayer I've seen with the vertical line of the J through the middle of the H, as well as the remains of the H legs on both sides of the T. The obverse shows evidence of a double-strike.
@TwoKopeiki said:
Here's a neat pick-up from today's Sedwick sale. It's an 1809 Mexico 8 Reales with an unattributed TH/HJ over-assayer. This is probably the best example of this rare over-assayer I've seen with the vertical line of the J through the middle of the H, as well as the remains of the H legs on both sides of the T. The obverse shows evidence of a double-strike.
That's a really clear over-assayer, nice pickup. There was quite a bit of flip flopping with assayers in 1809.
Nice pair - Way difficult to find these Nuevo Reino - Colombia and in this condition - Very good.
Also that 2R 1761 PCGS graded - Beautiful 2R!- I have one of the same year too, but still raw, have not got the chance to send it for grading, hope to do that anytime soon.
@SimonW said:
Picked this one up recently, it’s my second low grade Santiago 2R from the 1770’s.
Two early date Santiago mint 2R's - nice!
Both of those dates, 1775 and 1779, are found with some frequency. I have seen approx. 20 examples of each over the years.
The real tough ones are 1776, and even more so, 1777. If you come across one of those, grab it!
2R 1773 is also relatively scarce and interesting being the 1st year of issue.
The 1R's are also tough/rare, much more so than the 2R's. All 1770's dates, except 1778 and 1773.
@SimonW said:
Picked this one up recently, it’s my second low grade Santiago 2R from the 1770’s.
Two early date Santiago mint 2R's - nice!
Both of those dates, 1775 and 1779, are found with some frequency. I have seen approx. 20 examples of each over the years.
The real tough ones are 1776, and even more so, 1777. If you come across one of those, grab it!
2R 1773 is also relatively scarce and interesting being the 1st year of issue.
The 1R's are also tough/rare, much more so than the 2R's. All 1770's dates, except 1778 and 1773.
I’ve noticed that, all of your observations ring true from my experience.
Silver presentation example of a small scarce Hacienda token (Hacienda de Sierra Hermosa, Zacatecas), normally struck in brass.
The denomination seems to be 1 Trasquila (sheep shearing). Not sure if the token was good for one sheep shearing or in payment of one sheep shearing, or perhaps either.
@pruebas said:
Silver presentation example of a small scarce Hacienda token (Hacienda de Sierra Hermosa, Zacatecas), normally struck in brass.
The denomination seems to be 1 Trasquila (sheep shearing). Not sure if the token was good for one sheep shearing or in payment of one sheep shearing, or perhaps either.
That's an interesting token, I really like the toning, but I especially love the dappled effect depicting the ram/sheep's wool.
Here is some info gleaned from Krause-Rulua's Latin American Tokens Guide
@pruebas said:
Silver presentation example of a small scarce Hacienda token (Hacienda de Sierra Hermosa, Zacatecas), normally struck in brass.
The denomination seems to be 1 Trasquila (sheep shearing). Not sure if the token was good for one sheep shearing or in payment of one sheep shearing, or perhaps either.
That's an interesting token, I really like the toning, but I especially love the dappled effect depicting the ram/sheep's wool.
Here is some info gleaned from Krause-Rulua's Latin American Tokens Guide
Thanks @JohnnyCache
It’s also listed in Grove’s blue token book, which I can’t find right now. Grove-1611.
Comments
I picked up this coin at a local coin show on Friday:
Brazil 2000 Reis 1865
Silver, 37.0 mm, 25.33 gm
Obverse: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (In This Sign, Conquer)
Reverse: PETRUS II D.G. CONST IMP ET PERP BRAS DEF 1865
(Peter II, by the Grace of God, Constitutional Emperor and Perpetual Defender of Brazil)
Pedro II was the last king of Brazil and reigned from 1831 to 1889.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
The photos for the Type A and Type C aren't showing up in your post.
Odd. Must be something with PCGS redirects.
Try this:
https://images.pcgs.com/coinfacts/38665734_large.jpg
Type B (mostly used in 1808 and some in 1809)
https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/43618205/large/227403794.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/coinfacts/49509960_large.jpg
Type C (most common type, used in 1809 and later)
https://images.pcgs.com/coinfacts/42172390_large.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/coinfacts/25244368_large.jpg
8 Reales Madness Collection
Not a coin, but another medal. And actually a US medal, but awarded to a very famous Mexican-American numismatist--Dr. Alberto Francisco Pradeau Aviles (1894-1980)--by the American Numismatic Society.
Dr. Pradeau is considered by many to be the foremost researcher on Mexican numismatics. He was a dentist in Los Angeles and wrote several important books on Mexican numismatics. His extensive collection of Mexican coins was sold in a series of three sales in 1970-1 by Superior Stamp and Coin (the Goldbergs).
He won the ANS' highest honor, the Archer Milton Huntington Medal in 1945. This example is his personal award medal and is named to him on the reverse.
I have never seen a silver example sold in public auction, and they are supposedly quite scarce. These tone strangely, perhaps due to their finish, so this example is quite nice, though of low relief typical of the era when the medal was designed (1908).
I will add links to the three Superior Pradeau sales once the NNP comes back online. But I believe Pradeau I was the first ever Superior auction.
Pradeau Part I
Pradeau Part II
Pradeau Part III
A few parts to this post. First I'm excited to add this 2 reales from 1832 to my collection. Minted in Honduras this coin is much scarcer than the 1831 date. There are two obverse dies for the 1832 CAR issue, one of which is seen here:
For fun, we can also look at the 1831 coins and see three different examples of obverse die used. One way to tell them apart is to look at where the mountain's left edge touches the legend, either touching the B (first pic), Beneath the U (second pic) or in the center of the U (third pic). You can also look at where the sun's rays touches DE AM
Finally there is also a similar type from 1832 featuring a different legend, indicating it is provisional money instead of saying Republica Del Centro De Amer. It appears these are available dated 1832 or 1833 and again 1832 appears the scarcer date.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/honduras/honduras-provisional-2-reales-1832-t-f-xf40-ngc-/a/231724-63227.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
I imagine that all collectors of Mexican Revolution coinage already know this, but just in case you do not.
The Puebla "Tetela del Oro y Ocampo" 1915 2c (KM-759, GB-394) was restruck in modern times from the original dies. Note the rusty dies on the restrikes.
When buying an example, make sure you buy an original striking. PCGS denotes this, but NGC seems not to do so. And Stacks Bowers doesn't seem to indicate this either (probably due to NGC not mentioning it on their holder).
I have owned the dies for these for 25 years, but I did not do the restrikes. They were restruck way before then, and in large quantity. (The dies were on display at the "Viva la Revolucion" exhibit at the ANA in the early 2000s, but didn't make the book [exhibition catalog] due to screw-ups at the ANA.)
Also note there exist several denominations of Tetela del Oro y Ocampo coinage that are struck off-metal and/or uniface. These may have been restrikes too, but needs further investigation. Do not pay a lot for these!
Original strike:
Restrike:
Great info @pruebas !
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Fascinating. Thank you for the reply. I'm a YN so I'm not very knowledgeable compared to most people in this thread.
That's fascinating. Funny enough I wasn't even looking at the lettering and was thinking you meant at the base of the mountain on the right side as a tell. Which exits frame right rather than down. Still a difference but certainly not as easy to identify with lol.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
that's great to know! I had one of these recently and sold it. Had to go back and review the images to see but fortunately it was just a restrike. Now I know for next time!
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
An upgrade
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
And an addition to the pedigree set (that's three pedigrees in one coin if you're counting.)
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Here's two I was very pleased to pick up for my collection. Unsure the direction I am going just yet but they were too nice to pass up.
Video links:
https://imgur.com/cAYbblQ
https://imgur.com/Sx9Xbxe
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Very nice looking 2 reales!!! If I may suggest do not be tempted to go outside your area of collecting there is simply to many temptations when it comes to Latin American/Mexican coins. The series you are doing is a great looking series try to finish that off or close to it before opening another door. I was all over the place the first year of collecting but now just focus on 1 reales (early milled series) maybe one day when it becomes much slower adding new coins I will myself open a new door but till then the focus will remain 1 reales.
Unless you have lots of funds then by all means collect another series while doing the 2 reales. Best to be a specialist than been all over the place. With the 2 reales Mexico if you add collecting varieties of the series you will be busy for a long long time and you may end up having the best known collection of that series out there or close to it in the long run.
Remember the milled 1732's are not cheap or easy to locate (minus the 8 reales rarity wise). Once you own a milled 1732 then best to stick with that series. The milled 1732 2 reales Mexico is not an easy coin to find but one will show up over time just like one did not long ago on eBay (the link I sent you via PM but was to late it had already sold before I saw it myself).
A few new additions from yesterday's Stacks sale of the remainder (i think) of the Phil Rutherford collection. Overall very interesting bidding. I felt that a lot of the "Details" coins and more common dates underperformed and some of the rarer varieties set new records. I added a few tougher dates and also picked up a few pieces that i thought went for a decent price for what the coins were.
1801/0-Mo FM 8 Reales PCGS VF25. Overpaid for it, but it's a tough variety, especially straight graded, and it completes my 1801 date/variety group (1801-FM (common), 1801-FT (common), 1801-FT/M (common), 1801/0-FM (R3), 1801/0-FT/M (R3), 1801/0-FT (R4))
1811/0-Mo HJ 8 Reales PCGS MS61. A nice pleasant example of this overdate variety with a touch of toning.
1814-Mo JJ 8 Reales PCGS AU53. This is actually a 4/3 overdate that PCGS missed. It also went for a song, so win-win.
1816/5-Mo JJ 8 Reales PCGS AU58. Beautifully toned and a top pop coin.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Great stuff @TwoKopeiki
I got a few yesterday from Stacks, here are two of them.
I was quite flustered with the Tauler y Fau auction at the same time. I feel like my decision making was compromised 😂 Trying to watch two auctions at once was...interesting, especially while I'm trying to work. 😬
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I benefited from a strange coincidence after my last post on 2 reales, namely that I came across another shortly after posting! This is the 1832 Honduras provisional silver 2 reales and I'm extremely grateful to a friend of mine who showed me it for sale.
Graded XF45, it's comparable in quality to the Richard Stuart Collection example, which is XF40, and I feel very lucky to have coins of the same caliber as Stuart in my collection. I think the fact that Stuart could not find one nicer than XF speaks to the absolute and conditional rarity of this issue.
It's graded as a Central American Republic instead of Honduras so the Stuart example still says none finer when you look up its certification. I'm not sure if this was a mistake or if this is just inconsistency on the part of the grader. The Richard Stuart gallery has the coin under Central American Republic, but the slab itself for that same coin says Honduras.
Given that there are two issues for the same year, one whose legend says Central American Republic, and the other whose legend says State of Honduras, it seems to me like the former should be CAR and the latter should be Honduras. I'm not sure I will bother reholdering since the coin speaks for itself, but I'm wondering if any expert could chime in on this point for my general knowledge. In A Monetary History of Central America, Brian Stickney speculates that the legend change was due to a debasing of the silver content, meaning the coins were no longer meeting CAR legal specifications.
For reference:
1. https://coins.ha.com/itm/honduras/honduras-provisional-2-reales-1832-t-f-xf40-ngc-/a/231724-63227.s
2. https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4427710-012/40/
3. https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/stuart/40062/ (type 2 reales in the search to see the above coin under CAR)
Albeit perhaps not the most eye appealing coin, what we have here is a rather elusive example of the 1778/7 Bolivian 4 reales.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Two additional 4 reales to add to my recent newps.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Some Cobs I've picked up over the last few months:
1737/6 1/2 Real, G4
1733 Real, G6
1739 1/2 Real, doubling, G6
1739 1/2 Real VG10
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Here we have a situation where the coin in hand is significantly more attractive than its Trueview image would lead you to believe.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Here's a neat pick-up from today's Sedwick sale. It's an 1809 Mexico 8 Reales with an unattributed TH/HJ over-assayer. This is probably the best example of this rare over-assayer I've seen with the vertical line of the J through the middle of the H, as well as the remains of the H legs on both sides of the T. The obverse shows evidence of a double-strike.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Recent Heritage auction win.
An upgrade to my pillar set, replacing the AU55 I had in the 2 Reales spot.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
That's a really clear over-assayer, nice pickup. There was quite a bit of flip flopping with assayers in 1809.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Two recent wins...
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Nice pair - Way difficult to find these Nuevo Reino - Colombia and in this condition - Very good.
Also that 2R 1761 PCGS graded - Beautiful 2R!- I have one of the same year too, but still raw, have not got the chance to send it for grading, hope to do that anytime soon.
Picked this one up recently, it’s my second low grade Santiago 2R from the 1770’s.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
This is the other one.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Two early date Santiago mint 2R's - nice!
Both of those dates, 1775 and 1779, are found with some frequency. I have seen approx. 20 examples of each over the years.
The real tough ones are 1776, and even more so, 1777. If you come across one of those, grab it!
2R 1773 is also relatively scarce and interesting being the 1st year of issue.
The 1R's are also tough/rare, much more so than the 2R's. All 1770's dates, except 1778 and 1773.
I’ve noticed that, all of your observations ring true from my experience.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Silver presentation example of a small scarce Hacienda token (Hacienda de Sierra Hermosa, Zacatecas), normally struck in brass.
The denomination seems to be 1 Trasquila (sheep shearing). Not sure if the token was good for one sheep shearing or in payment of one sheep shearing, or perhaps either.
This one is on its way to me, not winning any beauty contests, but it's been a while since I've been able to add a guatemala 4R to the set.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
That's an interesting token, I really like the toning, but I especially love the dappled effect depicting the ram/sheep's wool.
Here is some info gleaned from Krause-Rulua's Latin American Tokens Guide
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Thanks @JohnnyCache
It’s also listed in Grove’s blue token book, which I can’t find right now. Grove-1611.