@pruebas said:
No one seems to care about the "Thursday" part anymore, so I will post this one that just popped at PCGS.
Despite a few hairlines, it has abundant luster and happily straight graded at PCGS. It is a beauty in-hand.
For those that don't know, it is a Mexican State Copper 1/4 Real (cuartilla) struck in silver.
Amazing!
I'd be thrilled to have a decent regular copper one. Congratulations!
Is this a coin you already owned or is it something you recently acquired?
If you recently purchased it is there a story on where you found it?
@pruebas said:
No one seems to care about the "Thursday" part anymore, so I will post this one that just popped at PCGS.
Despite a few hairlines, it has abundant luster and happily straight graded at PCGS. It is a beauty in-hand.
For those that don't know, it is a Mexican State Copper 1/4 Real (cuartilla) struck in silver.
Amazing!
I'd be thrilled to have a decent regular copper one. Congratulations!
Is this a coin you already owned or is it something you recently acquired?
If you recently purchased it is there a story on where you found it?
@JohnnyCache I was approached in Sep 2021 while I was at the Clyde Hubbard auction in Mexico City by a long-time collector friend from SLP. He is a real connoisseur of coins and owns many of "the best" coins that remain in Mexico. I have occasionally purchased from him over the last 25 years and have some really good coins pedigreed to him. Anyway, he asked me if I had this coin, to which I replied I did not.
Fast forward one year at the Sep 2022 convention in Mexico City, his son (who owns a coin business) had a table at the show and brought me the coin. I purchased it on the spot without any quibble on the price.
I submitted it at NYINC this year and the grade just posted yesterday.
@TwoKopeiki it says Zacatecas and I presume was struck there. No reason to think the dies were relocated elsewhere. I can add it to the 1832 Zacatecas cuartilla I purchased out of the Morton & Eden (unnamed) sale of the Clyde Hubbard Collection:
And the 1832 Zacatecas octavo I purchased from Dave O'Harrow:
@pruebas said: @JohnnyCache I was approached in Sep 2021 while I was at the Clyde Hubbard auction in Mexico City by a long-time collector friend from SLP. He is a real connoisseur of coins and owns many of "the best" coins that remain in Mexico......
I can add it to the 1832 Zacatecas cuartilla I purchased out of the Morton & Eden (unnamed) sale of the Clyde Hubbard Collection:
And the 1832 Zacatecas octavo I purchased from Dave O'Harrow:
I think I have to get a Wow out first, WOW! That1832 Zacatecas cuartilla is breathtaking.
Why do I never see these coins in anything other than almost slick?
Thanks for sharing the story. It's nice to have friends in numismatics.
You have amazing coins. I think all of us would agree on that.
So when someone like yourself says that your friend has many of "The Best" that remain in Mexico, it really gets the imagination going. With a son in the coin business though, hence an interest in numismatics, those coins are likely to remain exactly where they are for at least another generation.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t own a decent copper or brass one either. The silver strikes were special and preserved as such. These coppers were “used and abused” by the people. That’s what makes them so fun to collect.
Thanks for the clarification. I know it says Zacatecas, but the die work seems to be very well executed, which made me think these were done in Europe.
@TwoKopeiki said:
Thanks for the clarification. I know it says Zacatecas, but the die work seems to be very well executed, which made me think these were done in Europe.
I don’t think they were minted in Europe nor the dies cut in Europe. These are the same dies as the circulation strikes. They are noticeably crude in hand.
However, the Zacatecas mint was leased by a European firm (Maning & Marshall IIRC). Could be they sent (silver) samples back to Europe?
Well, if no one else is waiting for Thursday... this is a "new" purchase for me, last fall actually, as NGC AU58. Recently, finally crossed at grade and, somewhat more recently, I have now received the TrueView. I have some dirty old gold with copper spotting, and often use that indicator as a hint to originality, but I must say I'm really digging the copper "streak" on this one.
Looking for help on this one, please, specifically if you know of any auction appearances at any time in bronze. Mexican market being what it is, would like to know just how rare this is. 1789 Mexico AE proc by G Gil, Bust Carlos IV/denominated reverse ("8R"), Grove c-6a.
Seems as if extremely few were issued in any metal because with bust obv. & 8R rev, it might be used for currency. All I can find are two in silver: 1)Grove C-6 Ponterio 04/98 #2595 called "only example seen" and 2)another (?same as 1?) sold Aureo "4 known" 2020 for 12K euro hammer. Thanks in advance.
@Que_sai_je said:
Looking for help on this one, please, specifically if you know of any auction appearances at any time in bronze. Mexican market being what it is, would like to know just how rare this is. 1789 Mexico AE proc by G Gil, Bust Carlos IV/denominated reverse ("8R"), Grove c-6a.
Seems as if extremely few were issued in any metal because with bust obv. & 8R rev, it might be used for currency. All I can find are two in silver: 1)Grove C-6 Ponterio 04/98 #2595 called "only example seen" and 2)another (?same as 1?) sold Aureo "4 known" 2020 for 12K euro hammer. Thanks in advance.
This is a Father Fisher restrike from the 1860s. Those dies were not meant to go together, so it's also a mule. I bet there isn't a proper edge.
There was a Hidalgo auction that had a bunch of Fisher pieces. Let me see if I can locate the sale and maybe this one was there.
Congrats on the high end and pop top collections of these pieces, guys.
The problem with being a box of 20 collector is that I can only rationalize buying these pieces as "bullion"
But they can be awfully pretty bullion.
This one was toward the higher end of the pops when I got it several years back. Almost cameo black & white. But so many have been made in the last 8 or 10 years and I suspect there are several more uncirculated rolls out there.
Congrats on the high end and pop top collections of these pieces, guys.
The problem with being a box of 20 collector is that I can only rationalize buying these pieces as "bullion"
But they can be awfully pretty bullion.
This one was toward the higher end of the pops when I got it several years back. Almost cameo black & white. But so many have been made in the last 8 or 10 years and I suspect there are several more uncirculated rolls out there.
@Que_sai_je said:
Looking for help on this one, please, specifically if you know of any auction appearances at any time in bronze. Mexican market being what it is, would like to know just how rare this is. 1789 Mexico AE proc by G Gil, Bust Carlos IV/denominated reverse ("8R"), Grove c-6a.
Seems as if extremely few were issued in any metal because with bust obv. & 8R rev, it might be used for currency. All I can find are two in silver: 1)Grove C-6 Ponterio 04/98 #2595 called "only example seen" and 2)another (?same as 1?) sold Aureo "4 known" 2020 for 12K euro hammer. Thanks in advance.
This is a Father Fisher strike from the 1860s. Those dies were not meant to go together, so it's also a mule. I bet there isn't a proper edge.
There was a Hidalgo auction that had a bunch of Fisher pieces. Let me see if I can locate the sale and maybe this one was there.
The Alberto Hidalgo auction of October 2014 has 124 procs, including many Fisher restrikes and some mules. This one does not appear to be in that sale.
There is an interesting article in the December 2020 USMEX Journal "The Proclamation Medals of Charles IV in Valladolid de Michoacan" by Ricardo Vargas which has some info and references, but this one is not mentioned.
You could also check the Skilton sale (Thomas Elder, 1925) which has been reprinted by Numismatics International, so should be easy enough to locate.
The reverse die is from a "jura" of Mexico City, but that medal is not considered a coin despite having a denomination listed. Nor are the others with different denominations.
OK, since the USA is part of North America, here is a token made in England (Soho Mint) for Kentucky. It never got beyond the pattern stage. They come in bronzed copper (shown here) and silver, the copper being rarer. It's called a Myddelton token (so named because Mr. P. P. P. Myddelton had it made), and it's avidly collected by US colonial coin collectors.
@MrEureka picked this up raw in London and I purchased it and slabbed it. It unfortunately has two grade-limiting spots.
@pruebas said:
OK, since the USA is part of North America, here is a token made in England (Soho Mint) for Kentucky. It never got beyond the pattern stage. They come in bronzed copper (shown here) and silver, the copper being rarer. It's called a Myddelton token (so named because Mr. P. P. P. Myddelton had it made), and it's avidly collected by US colonial coin collectors.
@MrEureka picked this up raw in London and I purchased it and slabbed it. It unfortunately has two grade-limiting spots.
Very nice! So now you have both versions, this one and the Silver
Is the dated side considered the obverse? It was shown opposite of this previously in the NGC image.
@pruebas said:
OK, since the USA is part of North America, here is a token made in England (Soho Mint) for Kentucky. It never got beyond the pattern stage. They come in bronzed copper (shown here) and silver, the copper being rarer. It's called a Myddelton token (so named because Mr. P. P. P. Myddelton had it made), and it's avidly collected by US colonial coin collectors.
@MrEureka picked this up raw in London and I purchased it and slabbed it. It unfortunately has two grade-limiting spots.
Very nice! So now you have both versions, this one and the Silver
Is the dated side considered the obverse? It was shown opposite of this previously in the NGC image.
I do. I wanted all the Soho patterns for North America. I had them for Mexico already.
For Canada, I obtained an original bronze Copper Company of Upper Canada token from Doug Robins' sale(s). There were no silver originals of that token, so I bought a 1894 restrike in silver, ex. John Temple. Here is the TrueView of that piece. The rest are NGC without good photos.
For my US pieces, I bought both the silver and bronze Myddelton tokens.
I suppose I could expand into Bermuda, Jamaica, etc., but I'm less keen on that.
As far as the obverse, I believe the side with the date is the obverse.
These silver onza patterns walked in the door at a coin stall in Mexico City last year. They were still in their original unopened cellophane packaging from the mint! A friend of mine was in the right place at the right time to buy them.
Each of these has a plain edge, whereas the "normal" patterns and issued pieces have a reeded edge.
Additionally, this pattern type often comes with (incuse, reverse) PRUEBA stamped on them. These particular specimens do not have that stamp.
Just goes to show that even an advanced collection can still get new additions once in a while.
Wonderful additions, everyone! @pruebas those Onza patterns are quite a find!
It's been a while since I had a new addition, but here's something neat. 1780 Mexico 8 Reales in AU58+. Based on the holder and certificate number range, this one is definitely one of the early pluses from 2010. Great strike and the TV reveals nice peripheral color starting to develop.
I purchased this Carlos IV Proclamation medal by mistake. I had meant to bid on something else. Additionally, I had forgotten that I had purchased a much better example 5 years ago. Nevertheless, the photo of this medal is much nicer than the prior example's photo. Probably due to the fact that I manually chose a larger f-stop. Anywhere, here it is. Could someone tell me how it is identified as being a Peru medal? The pomegranate?
Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis
@harasha said:
I purchased this Carlos IV Proclamation medal by mistake. I had meant to bid on something else. Additionally, I had forgotten that I had purchased a much better example 5 years ago. Nevertheless, the photo of this medal is much nicer than the prior example's photo. Probably due to the fact that I manually chose a larger f-stop. Anywhere, here it is. Could someone tell me how it is identified as being a Peru medal? The pomegranate?
For me, the giveaway is the crowned eagle/shield between the pillars. But that is only from prior experience, not from any legend on the piece.
Late Thursday win to see my submission processed. This was the most exciting piece for me, and is going in the type/mint set I'm slowly chipping away at.
Late Thursday win to see my submission processed. This was the most exciting piece for me, and is going in the type/mint set I'm slowly chipping away at.
Great piece! Really well struck from what I've seen of those.
Yes, I know it is not Thursday, but @pruebas said in the past that it does not matter... I just got this one from one of the members @ELuis and wanted to give him a public recognition. Great coin, thanks..
Sold a property on Thursday of last week. I've made it a practice to reward my main contractors when I do that. In this case it was my main guy and his new assistant. Asked one of my local dealers if they had a 2 or 2.5 peso for the new guy. They dug deep and found these pieces that had been the stock of a local guy who fancied himself a dealer. My dealer got them 12 years ago and forgot about them. Got them for a little over melt:
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
Comments
@pruebas never disappoints.
That has to be a Zacatecas one @TwoKopeiki
Amazing!
I'd be thrilled to have a decent regular copper one. Congratulations!
Is this a coin you already owned or is it something you recently acquired?
If you recently purchased it is there a story on where you found it?
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
But it’s only Tuesday…
Latin American Collection
@JohnnyCache I was approached in Sep 2021 while I was at the Clyde Hubbard auction in Mexico City by a long-time collector friend from SLP. He is a real connoisseur of coins and owns many of "the best" coins that remain in Mexico. I have occasionally purchased from him over the last 25 years and have some really good coins pedigreed to him. Anyway, he asked me if I had this coin, to which I replied I did not.
Fast forward one year at the Sep 2022 convention in Mexico City, his son (who owns a coin business) had a table at the show and brought me the coin. I purchased it on the spot without any quibble on the price.
I submitted it at NYINC this year and the grade just posted yesterday.
@TwoKopeiki it says Zacatecas and I presume was struck there. No reason to think the dies were relocated elsewhere. I can add it to the 1832 Zacatecas cuartilla I purchased out of the Morton & Eden (unnamed) sale of the Clyde Hubbard Collection:
And the 1832 Zacatecas octavo I purchased from Dave O'Harrow:
I think I have to get a Wow out first, WOW! That1832 Zacatecas cuartilla is breathtaking.
Why do I never see these coins in anything other than almost slick?
Thanks for sharing the story. It's nice to have friends in numismatics.
You have amazing coins. I think all of us would agree on that.
So when someone like yourself says that your friend has many of "The Best" that remain in Mexico, it really gets the imagination going. With a son in the coin business though, hence an interest in numismatics, those coins are likely to remain exactly where they are for at least another generation.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
And for what it’s worth, I don’t own a decent copper or brass one either. The silver strikes were special and preserved as such. These coppers were “used and abused” by the people. That’s what makes them so fun to collect.
Thanks for the clarification. I know it says Zacatecas, but the die work seems to be very well executed, which made me think these were done in Europe.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I don’t think they were minted in Europe nor the dies cut in Europe. These are the same dies as the circulation strikes. They are noticeably crude in hand.
However, the Zacatecas mint was leased by a European firm (Maning & Marshall IIRC). Could be they sent (silver) samples back to Europe?
Well, if no one else is waiting for Thursday... this is a "new" purchase for me, last fall actually, as NGC AU58. Recently, finally crossed at grade and, somewhat more recently, I have now received the TrueView. I have some dirty old gold with copper spotting, and often use that indicator as a hint to originality, but I must say I'm really digging the copper "streak" on this one.
Recent purchase at spot. 1920 Colombia Cinco Pesos with "A" mint mark.
Looking for help on this one, please, specifically if you know of any auction appearances at any time in bronze. Mexican market being what it is, would like to know just how rare this is.
1789 Mexico AE proc by G Gil, Bust Carlos IV/denominated reverse ("8R"), Grove c-6a.
Seems as if extremely few were issued in any metal because with bust obv. & 8R rev, it might be used for currency. All I can find are two in silver: 1)Grove C-6 Ponterio 04/98 #2595 called "only example seen" and 2)another (?same as 1?) sold Aureo "4 known" 2020 for 12K euro hammer. Thanks in advance.
This is a Father Fisher restrike from the 1860s. Those dies were not meant to go together, so it's also a mule. I bet there isn't a proper edge.
There was a Hidalgo auction that had a bunch of Fisher pieces. Let me see if I can locate the sale and maybe this one was there.
mijo, que did you do with my peso?
The Alberto Hidalgo auction of October 2014 has 124 procs, including many Fisher restrikes and some mules. This one does not appear to be in that sale.
There is an interesting article in the December 2020 USMEX Journal "The Proclamation Medals of Charles IV in Valladolid de Michoacan" by Ricardo Vargas which has some info and references, but this one is not mentioned.
You could also check the Skilton sale (Thomas Elder, 1925) which has been reprinted by Numismatics International, so should be easy enough to locate.
The reverse die is from a "jura" of Mexico City, but that medal is not considered a coin despite having a denomination listed. Nor are the others with different denominations.
It’s Thursday in Japan so here ya go
Ex. Vidal Quadra’s y Ramon
Very rare (R5 in Gilboy, R4 in Yonaka) 2R
Latin American Collection
Proper Thursday post, albeit at 3:11am eastern time.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
It's right there, homie. Just a bit of contrast to show the cameo.
--Severian the Lame
Well, today IS Thursday! 😂
4 Reales Potosi Mint
Oh baby! That’s beautiful!!!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Giving some colour to life! Have a great Thursday.
OK, since the USA is part of North America, here is a token made in England (Soho Mint) for Kentucky. It never got beyond the pattern stage. They come in bronzed copper (shown here) and silver, the copper being rarer. It's called a Myddelton token (so named because Mr. P. P. P. Myddelton had it made), and it's avidly collected by US colonial coin collectors.
@MrEureka picked this up raw in London and I purchased it and slabbed it. It unfortunately has two grade-limiting spots.
Very nice! So now you have both versions, this one and the Silver
Is the dated side considered the obverse? It was shown opposite of this previously in the NGC image.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Great looking coin congrats!!!
I do. I wanted all the Soho patterns for North America. I had them for Mexico already.
For Canada, I obtained an original bronze Copper Company of Upper Canada token from Doug Robins' sale(s). There were no silver originals of that token, so I bought a 1894 restrike in silver, ex. John Temple. Here is the TrueView of that piece. The rest are NGC without good photos.
For my US pieces, I bought both the silver and bronze Myddelton tokens.
I suppose I could expand into Bermuda, Jamaica, etc., but I'm less keen on that.
As far as the obverse, I believe the side with the date is the obverse.
Actually, the Heritage photos of the original piece in copper aren't bad. From the Doug Robins Collection.
Here they are:
Here's a colorful AU55 2 Reales Mexico City:
Beautiful!
Latin American Collection
This is a pristine MS66 1902 Mo peso. Not just I was missing it in my NGC set, but is also a top pop.
Happy Thursday!
A very low grade toughie I got on the bay recently
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Here's some luster (MS 67) for Thursday:
These silver onza patterns walked in the door at a coin stall in Mexico City last year. They were still in their original unopened cellophane packaging from the mint! A friend of mine was in the right place at the right time to buy them.
Each of these has a plain edge, whereas the "normal" patterns and issued pieces have a reeded edge.
Additionally, this pattern type often comes with (incuse, reverse) PRUEBA stamped on them. These particular specimens do not have that stamp.
Just goes to show that even an advanced collection can still get new additions once in a while.
Waiting to get this toned one in hand...
My current "Box of 20"
CRO newp.
Provenance Ex. David O'Harrow (He was, amongst many other things, the co-author of Hookneck)
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Wonderful additions, everyone! @pruebas those Onza patterns are quite a find!
It's been a while since I had a new addition, but here's something neat. 1780 Mexico 8 Reales in AU58+. Based on the holder and certificate number range, this one is definitely one of the early pluses from 2010. Great strike and the TV reveals nice peripheral color starting to develop.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Just got it in-hand and it fits the collection well. Looks 62 by today's standard. Very pleased with it.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpqSG1fMqUz/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
8 Reales Madness Collection
A cut piece of eight.
A revalued 8 reale from the Potosi mint scandal.
A three dated 2 reale.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Love the colorful luster!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I like it !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I purchased this Carlos IV Proclamation medal by mistake. I had meant to bid on something else. Additionally, I had forgotten that I had purchased a much better example 5 years ago. Nevertheless, the photo of this medal is much nicer than the prior example's photo. Probably due to the fact that I manually chose a larger f-stop. Anywhere, here it is. Could someone tell me how it is identified as being a Peru medal? The pomegranate?
DPOTD
For me, the giveaway is the crowned eagle/shield between the pillars. But that is only from prior experience, not from any legend on the piece.
That in the center is the 'Escudo de Armas' - Coat of Arms of Lima:
hth
newp
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
I was thinking that the star symbol had something to do with the "Star of Lima."
DPOTD
You are 130 years too late!
This is what the Star of Lima looks like. Admittedly, this is the "finest known" 8R example per Sedwick, so they don't all look as good.
Late Thursday win to see my submission processed. This was the most exciting piece for me, and is going in the type/mint set I'm slowly chipping away at.
Great piece! Really well struck from what I've seen of those.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Yes, I know it is not Thursday, but @pruebas said in the past that it does not matter... I just got this one from one of the members @ELuis and wanted to give him a public recognition. Great coin, thanks..
Sold a property on Thursday of last week. I've made it a practice to reward my main contractors when I do that. In this case it was my main guy and his new assistant. Asked one of my local dealers if they had a 2 or 2.5 peso for the new guy. They dug deep and found these pieces that had been the stock of a local guy who fancied himself a dealer. My dealer got them 12 years ago and forgot about them. Got them for a little over melt:
--Severian the Lame