Late Thursday win to see my submission processed. This was the most exciting piece for me, and is going in the type/mint set I'm slowly chipping away at.
Late Thursday win to see my submission processed. This was the most exciting piece for me, and is going in the type/mint set I'm slowly chipping away at.
Great piece! Really well struck from what I've seen of those.
Yes, I know it is not Thursday, but @pruebas said in the past that it does not matter... I just got this one from one of the members @ELuis and wanted to give him a public recognition. Great coin, thanks..
Sold a property on Thursday of last week. I've made it a practice to reward my main contractors when I do that. In this case it was my main guy and his new assistant. Asked one of my local dealers if they had a 2 or 2.5 peso for the new guy. They dug deep and found these pieces that had been the stock of a local guy who fancied himself a dealer. My dealer got them 12 years ago and forgot about them. Got them for a little over melt:
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@pruebas said:
OK, since the USA is part of North America, here is a token made in England (Soho Mint) for Kentucky. It never got beyond the pattern stage. They come in bronzed copper (shown here) and silver, the copper being rarer. It's called a Myddelton token (so named because Mr. P. P. P. Myddelton had it made), and it's avidly collected by US colonial coin collectors.
@MrEureka picked this up raw in London and I purchased it and slabbed it. It unfortunately has two grade-limiting spots.
I have now completed my collection of US and Canada Soho patterns. Just purchased a Myddelton - Copper Company of Upper Canada mule from the Sydney Martin Collection.
(For some reason, PCGS TrueView imbedded links are not working anymore, so images are missing. I have updated my post so the images now appears above along with my newp below.)
Wow, it's very interesting image, great art. I have never seen it before.
Why are two boys going to Fridom? USA and Canada? And is GB letting off them? The USA had the war for this, not like the image. Or don't i understand this?
I happily bid on this piece, not because it was a Proclamation Medal (though I do like them) nor because it honored Ferdinand VII (no way an honorable monarch). In truth, back in 2021, for some reason I cannot remember, I was trying to put together a type set of 1808 Bolivian coins. Couldn't resist an 1808 Bolivian medal!
Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis
Very nice pickup, I had strongly considered going for it, more than once in fact, but it would have put a serious dent into future coin purchases for me, so I had to refrain.
@Boosibri said:
Came from a Pat Johnson sale, then to CRO, to me
Ah. I was wondering how I had overlooked this coin because it is so nice. Checking back I discovered that I did, indeed, bid on it at the time but it ran up higher than I was willing to go. Congrats to you.
I like this Peso too, bought two from a 1967 roll that was just opened by the guy, too bad that I pass by when he did that, to stop it and buy the unopened roll, but was too late.
It is called "Peso Tepalcate" called like this for the low fineness of 0.1000 and I think Tepalcate means low value or useless something like that.
There is an album for these:
Added a quick translation of the description above:
Known as "Common or Tepalcate Peso".
These started to circulate in 1957, just to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Constitution and for 11 years were minted these pesos. The mintage ended in 1967. They have a diameter of 34.5mm, weight 16.00g and the fineness of 0.100 of silver.
Observe: National coat with the leyend "Estados Unidos Mexicanos, Un Peso" and the date.
Reverse: Image of the general Don Jose Maria Morelos y Pavon with the "Mo" mint house.
I think it is cool.
Oh, and I sent one of the 1967 for grading to our hosts.
Eluis - do you know how they prepared the planchets so that the surface of the coin showed as though it was high content silver? I had posted speculation before that maybe they blanched them in acid first to make the percentage of silver on the surface higher than the core. Somewhere on the internet there is a picture of someone who had broken or cut one of the coins and the center looks very much like pot metal...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars said:
Eluis - do you know how they prepared the planchets so that the surface of the coin showed as though it was high content silver? I had posted speculation before that maybe they blanched them in acid first to make the percentage of silver on the surface higher than the core. Somewhere on the internet there is a picture of someone who had broken or cut one of the coins and the center looks very much like pot metal...
Do not know any of the process, I know that the 1957 Peso with Benito Juarez and 500,000 mintage is called also Tepalcate since also have 0.1000 of silver and on these you do not see the same surface (I have one in gem and if I compare both there is a lot of difference) it looks more grey.
Edited to add an image for reference.
Here is a Mexico 1994 Silver 5 Coins Gem Proof Set, one or maybe two of the coins have a fingerprint too bad for that, but think overall is a nice set:
In hand they looked way nicer indeed, if I do not have any other coins to sent for grading guess these can be good candidates.
I was thinking about your question during the day today and thought to myself that I suppose it could also possibly be a 9/0, not just an 9/8 as I originally suspected.
So I made a mental note for myself to check and see if Brad had identified the overdate in his book and what specifically he thought the overdate was.
I just got the opportunity to do so and was pleasantly surprised to see this.
Here's a coin I'm happy to have received yesterday. I think I was lucky to have seen it listed at a fixed price and I didn't hesitate very long before buying it. There is a problem area from where I suspect the coin was removed from a mount but handling it I don't mind as much as I thought I would. It's a really fun coin to hold and examine, and there is a lot to see on the edge. Problem free examples of the type are so rare and expensive that I did not anticipate finding one and I was not even thinking about trying to acquire one. So having one fall into my lap was quite a surprise.
My starting point for learning about the coin was A Monetary History of Central America by Brian Stickney. There are also some informative past auction descriptions on Heritage Auctions if anyone wants to learn more.
The Central American Republic's constitution of 1824 described coins that were to be minted in the same fineness as Spanish government issues, but with "some minor differences permitted". This coin was minted in Honduras one year later, however after just a few months of minting, the nonstandard issues were declared illegal in favor of more standardized production and many may have been melted.
There are some points of disagreement among references I found especially around the silver purity of this coin, so I'm hoping to figure that out soon. One says it is 0.750 fine, while another says 0.903, and a third says it was struck at the higher fineness of colonial cobs to make up for its appearance. The last explanation makes sense to me and I don't see why you'd add the minor difference clause to the constitution without the intention of doing something like that. At the same time I don't think a reduction from around 90% to 75% would be considered a minor difference, though I'm no constitutional scholar.
I'm also curious about the lettering on this example, especially in CENT and CRESC. Specifically whether there is some die clashing in those areas, or if there is something else going on. I didn't see other examples online with the same appearance there.
@Euclid said:
Here's a coin I'm happy to have received yesterday. I think I was lucky to have seen it listed at a fixed price and I didn't hesitate very long before buying it. There is a problem area from where I suspect the coin was removed from a mount but handling it I don't mind as much as I thought I would. It's a really fun coin to hold and examine, and there is a lot to see on the edge. Problem free examples of the type are so rare and expensive that I did not anticipate finding one and I was not even thinking about trying to acquire one. So having one fall into my lap was quite a surprise.
That's a really awesome piece! I love when a coin's history is up for debate, and we don't have all the information. It really adds depth to it. Great look aside from the spot and a high level of detail which I think is important when finding any example can be cost prohibitive.
Anyone ever seen a counterfeit of this pattern before?
Obviously meant to fool collectors since it's a pattern and not a circulating coin.
(It should technically be called a salesman's sample.)
Comments
newp
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
I was thinking that the star symbol had something to do with the "Star of Lima."
DPOTD
You are 130 years too late!
This is what the Star of Lima looks like. Admittedly, this is the "finest known" 8R example per Sedwick, so they don't all look as good.
Late Thursday win to see my submission processed. This was the most exciting piece for me, and is going in the type/mint set I'm slowly chipping away at.
Great piece! Really well struck from what I've seen of those.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Yes, I know it is not Thursday, but @pruebas said in the past that it does not matter... I just got this one from one of the members @ELuis and wanted to give him a public recognition. Great coin, thanks..
Sold a property on Thursday of last week. I've made it a practice to reward my main contractors when I do that. In this case it was my main guy and his new assistant. Asked one of my local dealers if they had a 2 or 2.5 peso for the new guy. They dug deep and found these pieces that had been the stock of a local guy who fancied himself a dealer. My dealer got them 12 years ago and forgot about them. Got them for a little over melt:
--Severian the Lame
I have now completed my collection of US and Canada Soho patterns. Just purchased a Myddelton - Copper Company of Upper Canada mule from the Sydney Martin Collection.
(For some reason, PCGS TrueView imbedded links are not working anymore, so images are missing. I have updated my post so the images now appears above along with my newp below.)
Wow, it's very interesting image, great art. I have never seen it before.
Why are two boys going to Fridom? USA and Canada? And is GB letting off them? The USA had the war for this, not like the image. Or don't i understand this?
Peace.
Nicaragua with Betsy Ross and the moon landing
Peru 1 Dinero 1893 TF 1/0
I happily bid on this piece, not because it was a Proclamation Medal (though I do like them) nor because it honored Ferdinand VII (no way an honorable monarch). In truth, back in 2021, for some reason I cannot remember, I was trying to put together a type set of 1808 Bolivian coins. Couldn't resist an 1808 Bolivian medal!
DPOTD
Picked this one up last week.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I don’t know anything about that type but it looks like way more detail on the host coin than normal.
If you’re accustomed to looking at the “normal” Bolivian cobs, yeah, this looks a little funny. But….
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Two recent new Trueviews
Funny, the Ferd VII is no where as far as the image makes it seem and the Libre is no where near as misshapen as the photograph.
Latin American Collection
Outstanding
8 Reales Madness Collection
That indeed is a choice host coin for the type!
Royally nice
Latin American Collection
Latin American Collection
Very nice pickup, I had strongly considered going for it, more than once in fact, but it would have put a serious dent into future coin purchases for me, so I had to refrain.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
what auction was this coin featured in?
appears to be this coin from the Pat Johnson collection but reholdered
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-XUHZG/guatemala-4-reales-1807-ng-m-nueva-guatemala-mint-charles-iv-pcgs-ms-62
Came from a Pat Johnson sale, then to CRO, to me
Latin American Collection
Ah. I was wondering how I had overlooked this coin because it is so nice. Checking back I discovered that I did, indeed, bid on it at the time but it ran up higher than I was willing to go. Congrats to you.
Yes, I like this one and got one of the 1957 One peso coins from the Heritage weekly sale about 2 months ago in 67....
Well, just Love coins, period.
I like this Peso too, bought two from a 1967 roll that was just opened by the guy, too bad that I pass by when he did that, to stop it and buy the unopened roll, but was too late.
It is called "Peso Tepalcate" called like this for the low fineness of 0.1000 and I think Tepalcate means low value or useless something like that.
There is an album for these:
Added a quick translation of the description above:
Known as "Common or Tepalcate Peso".
These started to circulate in 1957, just to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Constitution and for 11 years were minted these pesos. The mintage ended in 1967. They have a diameter of 34.5mm, weight 16.00g and the fineness of 0.100 of silver.
Observe: National coat with the leyend "Estados Unidos Mexicanos, Un Peso" and the date.
Reverse: Image of the general Don Jose Maria Morelos y Pavon with the "Mo" mint house.
I think it is cool.
Oh, and I sent one of the 1967 for grading to our hosts.
Eluis - do you know how they prepared the planchets so that the surface of the coin showed as though it was high content silver? I had posted speculation before that maybe they blanched them in acid first to make the percentage of silver on the surface higher than the core. Somewhere on the internet there is a picture of someone who had broken or cut one of the coins and the center looks very much like pot metal...
Well, just Love coins, period.
Do not know any of the process, I know that the 1957 Peso with Benito Juarez and 500,000 mintage is called also Tepalcate since also have 0.1000 of silver and on these you do not see the same surface (I have one in gem and if I compare both there is a lot of difference) it looks more grey.
Edited to add an image for reference.
Here is a Mexico 1994 Silver 5 Coins Gem Proof Set, one or maybe two of the coins have a fingerprint too bad for that, but think overall is a nice set:
In hand they looked way nicer indeed, if I do not have any other coins to sent for grading guess these can be good candidates.
I don't come around this forum much anymore, but when I do, this thread is one of my top destinations. Great stuff guys.
Dan! I wish you came around a bit more often
Where are all those chopmarked beauties?
8 Reales Madness Collection
The “rock” is actually ore from the mountain in Potosi! It’s a REAL piece of South America.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Ok alright, here's a few to share...
This one shows evidence of silver stealing.
Great coins thanks for sharing!!!
Very tough proper bust of the 1808 Ferdinand VII 1/2R
Latin American Collection
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Awesome group 👍
I wonder if with the Real PCGS were not able to determine the overdate year. I've never seen it designated like that before.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Same here, to me it looks like the top of an 8 though perhaps it wasn't conclusive enough for them to call it such.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
@TwoKopeiki
I was thinking about your question during the day today and thought to myself that I suppose it could also possibly be a 9/0, not just an 9/8 as I originally suspected.
So I made a mental note for myself to check and see if Brad had identified the overdate in his book and what specifically he thought the overdate was.
I just got the opportunity to do so and was pleasantly surprised to see this.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Nice. Your coin imaged.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Here's a coin I'm happy to have received yesterday. I think I was lucky to have seen it listed at a fixed price and I didn't hesitate very long before buying it. There is a problem area from where I suspect the coin was removed from a mount but handling it I don't mind as much as I thought I would. It's a really fun coin to hold and examine, and there is a lot to see on the edge. Problem free examples of the type are so rare and expensive that I did not anticipate finding one and I was not even thinking about trying to acquire one. So having one fall into my lap was quite a surprise.
My starting point for learning about the coin was A Monetary History of Central America by Brian Stickney. There are also some informative past auction descriptions on Heritage Auctions if anyone wants to learn more.
The Central American Republic's constitution of 1824 described coins that were to be minted in the same fineness as Spanish government issues, but with "some minor differences permitted". This coin was minted in Honduras one year later, however after just a few months of minting, the nonstandard issues were declared illegal in favor of more standardized production and many may have been melted.
There are some points of disagreement among references I found especially around the silver purity of this coin, so I'm hoping to figure that out soon. One says it is 0.750 fine, while another says 0.903, and a third says it was struck at the higher fineness of colonial cobs to make up for its appearance. The last explanation makes sense to me and I don't see why you'd add the minor difference clause to the constitution without the intention of doing something like that. At the same time I don't think a reduction from around 90% to 75% would be considered a minor difference, though I'm no constitutional scholar.
I'm also curious about the lettering on this example, especially in CENT and CRESC. Specifically whether there is some die clashing in those areas, or if there is something else going on. I didn't see other examples online with the same appearance there.
That's a really awesome piece! I love when a coin's history is up for debate, and we don't have all the information. It really adds depth to it. Great look aside from the spot and a high level of detail which I think is important when finding any example can be cost prohibitive.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Some modern coin gems:
Anyone ever seen a counterfeit of this pattern before?
Obviously meant to fool collectors since it's a pattern and not a circulating coin.
(It should technically be called a salesman's sample.)
Nice looking pattern!!!
I do believe this thread has resulted in me creeping over to the darkside and contemplating a box of 20 representing the America's- thanks a lot!