<< <i>Remember I mentioned that I ordered a few more from the Mint last week just for fun?
Got them today. All 08/08's. This will be my first ever return to the Mint. And before all the ethics professors come out and yell and me, I was going to keep them, but 2 of the 3 capsules were completely apart with the coins rolling around the shipping box. It's ridiculous how bad the quality is this year. I have no patience for garbage. >>
I don't know about that. I sent in 70 I ordered back in may/june timeframe to get graded at PCGS and 23 came back MS70.
Just an observation,but i have noticed that alot of sellers of this coin have 300 or less feedbacks and have been a member of ebay for a few years.Just wondering if they where coin collectors and if not how they found out about this coin.Any new info on the FOIA?
Hey Guys I have a PCGS f/s 69 2008 reverse 07 that I might put on ebay, and there are a few that are selling with 8/9 hrs left for $455 and a early ebayer on here sold his for $695 BIN. So should I put a price on BIN or start it at .99. What would be a BIN to dump it for quick money. Thanks for any help. Just found out I need a Muffler and a radiator for my old 91 explorer. I use that truck to pull my trailer for yard work and my sons Dirt bike. My wife says no more savings sell a damn coin George. Thanks Yaha
I'd do a BIN, not an auction, trend has been FS 69's low of I think 480 on auction, I think recent high BIN was mine at $695.99, I had it at 525 all day long and nothing, up'ed it and sold by morning...patience is key. Link from sold 7/25 + shipping....
I too feel that it is almost time for another climb in prices. They have been holding well over the last month. Once the mint says the 08's have sold out, I think they are going to go up. The mint must be almost ready to start making the 09's pretty soon.
in what kind of box did they put the three little blue boxes?.. was it a huge, over-sized box with some half-deflated airbags inside?..
You got it Harv, I think this is the THIRD time out of my 5 or 6 orders for ASE's this year that some were loose. The packaging stunk. When I packed it for return I put in a single piece of bubble wrap that I folded and it filled the gaps in the box. As for Memphis workers rifling through them, none of the coins appeared to be "popped out" of the blue velvet from behind. Just the capsules must be real cheap this year and don't seal well at all!
you don't get the original shipping (to you) charge refunded at all.. only the return (to them) shipping charge, and only if you call and ask for it..
Good to know, this is my first return, so I was just going to eat the cost. But thanks for letting me know.
<< <i>Remember I mentioned that I ordered a few more from the Mint last week just for fun?
Got them today. All 08/08's. This will be my first ever return to the Mint. And before all the ethics professors come out and yell and me, I was going to keep them, but 2 of the 3 capsules were completely apart with the coins rolling around the shipping box. It's ridiculous how bad the quality is this year. I have no patience for garbage. >>
I don't know about that. I sent in 70 I ordered back in may/june timeframe to get graded at PCGS and 23 came back MS70. >>
Jesse- You are luckier than I am this year I wasn't really referring to the quality of the coins this time around, but rather venting about the cheap shipping and packaging that causes them to open. The coins actually looked pretty nice, only a minor scratch or two, but I didn't want to deal with open capsules on brand new products.
I also got 12 about a month ago and the packing was real bad so I shipped them back. You would think they would have got the word by now, but no, they just ship them off to another sucker.
Here are the updated stats for the unc. 2008-W SAE & Rev 07 “error” – Mint production, TPG populations, & projected year-end (YE) mintage. Future updates will be posted monthly – unless there is a consensus that this info is no longer useful…
So as I understand this, if there are 350,000 2008w's then the error ratio will be at about 13% and if 400,000 the error ratio will be at about 11%. Even at 400,000 that will be a low mintage and there are many more collectors of these coins than that. Only about 1 out of ten will be able to own the 08 rev 07 and probably not even 1 out of a hundred will be able to afford them.
<< <i>none of the coins appeared to be "popped out" of the blue velvet from behind. >>
again, I'm just speculating, but just because one guy pushed them out from behind to check them, leaving a pushed-in dimple on the blue plastic thingie the capsule is pressed into.. doesn't mean they all did it the same way.. if they did it at all, which I think they did.. I don't have ANY idea how many warehouse guys The Mint has in Memphis.. if they're just contracted union labor, or actual gubmint employees.. no idea.. none.. I don't know if they work bare-handed or wear gloves.. I don't know if the same guys who pack and tape boxes are the same guys who drive forklifts and load trucks.. I'm just going by what I read here, and the pictures I've seen posted here.. and there's just way too much evidence that once the error was discovered, already-packed boxes were gone through looking for more.. and the only way to check since the error is the Reverse is to pop that capsule outta that blue holder.. and it can be pushed out from behind, or pulled out via the finger notch..
now whether they changed the specs or the supplier of this year's capsules so the halves just happen to fall apart more easily seems like a stretch to me.. my hunch is they were gone through deliberately, and sloppily pushed back together after the normal coins replaced the error coins.. that they did it in a huge hurry.. but without film or tape of what they did, or without being there to see what they did.. only they know what they did.. we'll never know.. i've been around enough warehouse workers in my life to know that you can gather them around and show them how you want something done, and as soon as you turn your back, they'll do it however they want to..
Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
I received the response from the mint. The response that cost $386 and change. Special thanks to the 40 individuals on these boards that contributed to the cost for the information.
First, the actual information...read it for yourself.
Now, some questions.
1) Why did the Mint neglect to answer my full inquiry, which included asking how many of these shipped, were any found and destroyed, etc?
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost nearly $400 to get a copy of that?
3) If I write another letter to the Disclosure Officer inquiring about the rest of my inquiry , will I be charged again?
4) To find out real information about how many were shipped/found/destroyed in Memphis, would we have to file a FOIA with the Fulfillment Center there?
Having 'popped out' over 900 of these let me say the easiest way to remove coin/capsule from blue velvet holder is to simply leave it in place, take top off 2 piece cardboard box and then with coin/box facing up firmly strike into cup of opposite hand with box/coin face down. It may take 2-3 strikes but they come out without damage to box or coin.
Same effect can be achieved by taking sealed mint shipping container and tossing box into and out of a truck several times.
Another question to ponder, since these are "Burnished Collector Coins" wouldn't quality control probably have pulled some, lowering the number some unknown amount more?
1) Why did the Mint neglect to answer my full inquiry, which included asking how many of these shipped, were any found and destroyed, etc?
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost nearly $400 to get a copy of that?
3) If I write another letter to the Disclosure Officer inquiring about the rest of my inquiry , will I be charged again?
4) To find out real information about how many were shipped/found/destroyed in Memphis, would we have to file a FOIA with the Fulfillment Center there?
Let the analysis begin! Lope >>
"18 dies were recorded, only 15 were used to produce coins".. okay, I see two with zero strikes.. that leaves 16.. what about the one with three recorded strikes.. what did it produce, chopped liver?.. or maybe it broke..
the others were used to make a wildly different number of coins.. from 198 / 3 (strikes each), to over 17,000 / 3 (strikes each)..
and even for all that money, they STILL didn't answer the REAL question, even though you asked it and we paid them to answer it: how many got out!..
Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
I received the response from the mint. The response that cost $386 and change. Special thanks to the 40 individuals on these boards that contributed to the cost for the information.
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost nearly $400 to get a copy of that? >>
I would ask them for an explanantion detail of how they arrived at their cost figure. I know that when I get public documents via an OPRA request, I am given a cost prior to receiving the documents, and that cost is strictly a function of the number of pages to be copied.
If their response is the cost covered their labor cost to review production records, then you may have an avenue to recover some of those costs as those same records had to have been reviewed to arrive at the 47,000 number provided by the Mint Spokesman months ago...
Lope - I think yawtta write back to them and say okay, thanks for the Mintage numbers, "but you didn't answer the other questions I paid you to answer" (or words to that effect), and see what they say.. you shouldn't have to file another FOIA request since they didn't answer all your questions in their reply, and didn't give any reason for not answering the other questions.. no redactions, no reason for not answering.. nothing.. the "how many actually got shipped" is, in the end result, a lot more important than how many were made.. eh?.. all the nearly $400.00 got us was a slightly lower "how many were made" number, and that is NOT the totality of what you / we paid them to find out..
Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
So, are the die numbers for a pair of dies? Or are they saying that the die numbers they have listed are for the die with the 2007 reverse, omitting the obverse (2008) die numbers?
<< <i>So, are the die numbers for a pair of dies? Or are they saying that the die numbers they have listed are for the die with the 2007 reverse, omitting the obverse (2008) die numbers? >>
good question Jesse. I was wondering the same thing. I'm sure someone here knows the answer to this?
Harv- I'm already thinking about how to word the letter that I'm going to send to them now. Any other thoughts or suggestions on what to say/how to say it?
FOIA costs are generally the costs and man hours associated with providing the information, not just copying expense, that is always extra and per page. That said, I doubt that information wasn't readily available and think you got hosed. I would do a follow up but referencing your original request, with a second request in Bullet format. Something such as Dear/// I am in receipt of your response to my FOIA request dated, etc. Please be advised that your response is deficient or otherwise incomplete in that you failed to provide the following information requested: Then break it into Numbered parts 2,3, 4... As such please provide the following within ..Just my thoughts...
Lope - Casman saved me the typing.. I would do what he suggested.. a bulleted list of what you asked, what they answered, and what they didn't answer, and request those answers you / we paid for.. all we've learned is that they now claim they made about 700 fewer coins than the "47,000" number Michael White was told to spew to the Press and the public.. and not much more than that.. the number of coins made per die is pretty much irrelevant.. as Casman or whoever said, you got hosed.. a typical non-reply reply to a couple of very specific questions.. for which you paid an exhorbitant amount of money.. my follow-up to them would be "polite but firm".. the whole point of this exercise was, I thought, to try to nail them down as to how many got shipped.. not just how many were made.. and their answer was " ".. {{crickets chirping}}..
Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
1) Why did the Mint neglect to answer my full inquiry, which included asking how many of these shipped, were any found and destroyed, etc?
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost nearly $400 to get a copy of that?
3) If I write another letter to the Disclosure Officer inquiring about the rest of my inquiry , will I be charged again?
4) To find out real information about how many were shipped/found/destroyed in Memphis, would we have to file a FOIA with the Fulfillment Center there? >>
The US Mint needs to honor your request and supply all of the information you paid for since you did exactly as they asked. I would write them another letter informing them all of the questions were not answered and demand them to do so. You know they kept figures on how many of the coins were found and destroyed but they are obviously going to try and get out of answering the question. Stay with it Lope and hold their nose to the grindstone.
There is one interesting tidbit here. . . If I'm deciphering this correctly, each W'Eagle receives 3 strikes Didn't realize that. Also didn't realize that there is a such a variation in die life, from 0-1 to nearly 6000 coins per die.
Regards, John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Lope, a copy of that letter (or whatever the final version becomes) should be sent to the editor of the Red Book (and CW, NN, etc.), so an "official" mintage number can be published.
Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.
It would be interesting to see the die numbers for another "normal" day of use at the mint for the ASE's. Do they always have such large differences between die's used? Do they always have such variability in the number of strikes for each coin?
<< <i>Lope, a copy of that letter (or whatever the final version becomes) should be sent to the editor of the Red Book (and CW, NN, etc.), so an "official" mintage number can be published. >>
May I suggest changing sent to sold...so we can get our money back? edited the poor punctuation
<< <i>It would be interesting to see the die numbers for another "normal" day of use at the mint for the ASE's. Do they always have such large differences between die's used? Do they always have such variability in the number of strikes for each coin?
Well, now I know how this happens >>
Since the Mint admits in their response to Lope's FOIA each of these coins was struck three times, wouldn't that mean the coin shown here by Jesse could be certified as a triple strike error?
<< <i>It would be interesting to see the die numbers for another "normal" day of use at the mint for the ASE's. Do they always have such large differences between die's used? Do they always have such variability in the number of strikes for each coin?
Well, now I know how this happens >>
Since the Mint admits in their response to Lope's FOIA each of these coins was struck three times, wouldn't that mean the coin shown here by Jesse could be certified as a triple strike error? >>
HMMMMMM, you mean as opposed to machine ejection doubling or tripling being the cause? Very interesting
Comments
And you forgot to say 5300!!!
5301
<< <i>Remember I mentioned that I ordered a few more from the Mint last week just for fun?
Got them today. All 08/08's. This will be my first ever return to the Mint. And before all the
ethics professors come out and yell and me, I was going to keep them, but 2 of the 3 capsules were
completely apart with the coins rolling around the shipping box. It's ridiculous how bad the quality is
this year. I have no patience for garbage. >>
I don't know about that. I sent in 70 I ordered back in may/june timeframe to get graded at PCGS and 23 came back MS70.
<< <i>Is it my imagination or have the 69's gone soft in the past day or so? >>
Maybe for the non First Strike holdered 69's...
I listed one on Sunday for a BIN of 760 and it sold in 4 hours.
I said to myself you priced it too low.
So I waited a couple of days and decided to try it again and listed one this morning for a BIN of 790.
It just sold in 7 hours.
If you decide to sell one list at a very strong BIN and have patience as Casman said.
My remaining 3 won't be sold soon. I will be buying and grading more this week.
I think they are ready to make another climb if that is possible. It amazes me how much strength these show in their prices.
Rookie Joe
in what kind of box did they put the three little blue boxes?.. was it a huge, over-sized box with some half-deflated airbags inside?..
You got it Harv, I think this is the THIRD time out of my 5 or 6 orders for ASE's this year that some were loose. The packaging stunk. When I packed it for return I put in a single piece of bubble wrap that I folded and it filled the gaps in the box. As for Memphis workers rifling through them, none of the coins appeared to be "popped out" of the blue velvet from behind. Just the capsules must be real cheap this year and don't seal well at all!
you don't get the original shipping (to you) charge refunded at all.. only the return (to them) shipping charge, and only if you call and ask for it..
Good to know, this is my first return, so I was just going to eat the cost. But thanks for letting me know.
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-------------------------
<< <i>
<< <i>Remember I mentioned that I ordered a few more from the Mint last week just for fun?
Got them today. All 08/08's. This will be my first ever return to the Mint. And before all the
ethics professors come out and yell and me, I was going to keep them, but 2 of the 3 capsules were
completely apart with the coins rolling around the shipping box. It's ridiculous how bad the quality is
this year. I have no patience for garbage. >>
I don't know about that. I sent in 70 I ordered back in may/june timeframe to get graded at PCGS and 23 came back MS70. >>
Jesse- You are luckier than I am this year
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-------------------------
It's time to buy back in.
I think they are near the bottom in price as the FS POP hasn't been moving much anymore.
<< <i>none of the coins appeared to be "popped out" of the blue velvet from behind. >>
again, I'm just speculating, but just because one guy pushed them out from behind to check them, leaving a pushed-in dimple on the blue plastic thingie the capsule is pressed into.. doesn't mean they all did it the same way.. if they did it at all, which I think they did.. I don't have ANY idea how many warehouse guys The Mint has in Memphis.. if they're just contracted union labor, or actual gubmint employees.. no idea.. none.. I don't know if they work bare-handed or wear gloves.. I don't know if the same guys who pack and tape boxes are the same guys who drive forklifts and load trucks.. I'm just going by what I read here, and the pictures I've seen posted here.. and there's just way too much evidence that once the error was discovered, already-packed boxes were gone through looking for more.. and the only way to check since the error is the Reverse is to pop that capsule outta that blue holder.. and it can be pushed out from behind, or pulled out via the finger notch..
now whether they changed the specs or the supplier of this year's capsules so the halves just happen to fall apart more easily seems like a stretch to me.. my hunch is they were gone through deliberately, and sloppily pushed back together after the normal coins replaced the error coins.. that they did it in a huge hurry.. but without film or tape of what they did, or without being there to see what they did.. only they know what they did.. we'll never know.. i've been around enough warehouse workers in my life to know that you can gather them around and show them how you want something done, and as soon as you turn your back, they'll do it however they want to..
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
I received the response from the mint. The response that cost $386 and change. Special thanks to the 40 individuals on these boards
that contributed to the cost for the information.
First, the actual information...read it for yourself.
Now, some questions.
1) Why did the Mint neglect to answer my full inquiry, which included asking how many of these shipped, were any found and destroyed, etc?
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost
nearly $400 to get a copy of that?
3) If I write another letter to the Disclosure Officer inquiring about the rest of my inquiry
4) To find out real information about how many were shipped/found/destroyed in Memphis, would we have to file a FOIA with the Fulfillment
Center there?
Let the analysis begin!
Lope
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
Same effect can be achieved by taking sealed mint shipping container and tossing box into and out of a truck several times.
<< <i>That's 682 less than we thought there were. I still say this is going to be a very valuable coin. >>
<
<< <i>
Now, some questions.
1) Why did the Mint neglect to answer my full inquiry, which included asking how many of these shipped, were any found and destroyed, etc?
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost
nearly $400 to get a copy of that?
3) If I write another letter to the Disclosure Officer inquiring about the rest of my inquiry
4) To find out real information about how many were shipped/found/destroyed in Memphis, would we have to file a FOIA with the Fulfillment
Center there?
Let the analysis begin!
Lope >>
"18 dies were recorded, only 15 were used to produce coins".. okay, I see two with zero strikes.. that leaves 16.. what about the one with three recorded strikes.. what did it produce, chopped liver?.. or maybe it broke..
the others were used to make a wildly different number of coins.. from 198 / 3 (strikes each), to over 17,000 / 3 (strikes each)..
and even for all that money, they STILL didn't answer the REAL question, even though you asked it and we paid them to answer it: how many got out!..
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>FOIA RESULTS ARE IN...SORT OF
I received the response from the mint. The response that cost $386 and change. Special thanks to the 40 individuals on these boards
that contributed to the cost for the information.
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost nearly $400 to get a copy of that? >>
I would ask them for an explanantion detail of how they arrived at their cost figure. I know that when I get public documents via an OPRA request, I am given a cost prior to receiving the documents, and that cost is strictly a function of the number of pages to be copied.
If their response is the cost covered their labor cost to review production records, then you may have an avenue to recover some of those costs as those same records had to have been reviewed to arrive at the 47,000 number provided by the Mint Spokesman months ago...
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>So, are the die numbers for a pair of dies? Or are they saying that the die numbers they have listed are for the die with the 2007 reverse, omitting the obverse (2008) die numbers? >>
good question Jesse. I was wondering the same thing. I'm sure someone here knows the answer to this?
Harv- I'm already thinking about how to word the letter that I'm going to send to them now. Any other thoughts or suggestions on what to say/how to say it?
Thanks
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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I wonder about that die that struck only 3 times. Perhaps this was one of the three dies that never produced coins?
Perhaps no planchet was fed in and it just did three nasty die clashes, then they tossed it.
I'm sure they were laughing at their partial answer as it was carefully crafted to produce more questions.
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>Now, some questions.
1) Why did the Mint neglect to answer my full inquiry, which included asking how many of these shipped, were any found and destroyed, etc?
2) This is evidently the same information that the PR guy (Michael White) was given initially for his statement. If that's the case, why did it cost
nearly $400 to get a copy of that?
3) If I write another letter to the Disclosure Officer inquiring about the rest of my inquiry
4) To find out real information about how many were shipped/found/destroyed in Memphis, would we have to file a FOIA with the Fulfillment
Center there? >>
The US Mint needs to honor your request and supply all of the information you paid for since you did exactly as they asked. I would write them another letter informing them all of the questions were not answered and demand them to do so. You know they kept figures on how many of the coins were found and destroyed but they are obviously going to try and get out of answering the question. Stay with it Lope and hold their nose to the grindstone.
Thanks again!
first column is die number, second is # of strikes, third is #/3
7328135 3420 1140.00
7328151 1218 406.00
7328178 0 0.00
7328182 17355 5785.00
7328185 14397 4799.00
7328186 9489 3163.00
7328190 7371 2457.00
7328196 3 1.00
7328200 198 66.00
7328200 12492 4164.00
7328201 5712 1904.00
7328204 603 201.00
7328205 12864 4288.00
7328206 15300 5100.00
7328208 12882 4294.00
7328215 0 0.00
7328218 13746 4582.00
7328222 11904 3968.00
0.00
Total Strikes 138954 46318.00
46318
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>It never happened Jessewvu...
lol. I did the same thing when I saw the numbers. I checked the math to make sure they were divisible by three.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
Well, now I know how this happens
<< <i>Lope, a copy of that letter (or whatever the final version becomes) should be sent to the editor of the Red Book (and CW, NN, etc.), so an "official" mintage number can be published. >>
May I suggest changing sent to sold...so we can get our money back?
edited the poor punctuation
LINK
Not too bad, but after all the damn fees plus free shipping, you can take $30-$40 off that price!
Edited: Now if only I force myself to pay off bills with the two I'm selling. I always get the urge to "re-invest" in other coins!
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-------------------------
<< <i>It would be interesting to see the die numbers for another "normal" day of use at the mint for the ASE's. Do they always have such large differences between die's used? Do they always have such variability in the number of strikes for each coin?
Well, now I know how this happens
Since the Mint admits in their response to Lope's FOIA each of these coins was struck three times, wouldn't that mean the coin shown here by Jesse could be certified as a triple strike error?
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be interesting to see the die numbers for another "normal" day of use at the mint for the ASE's. Do they always have such large differences between die's used? Do they always have such variability in the number of strikes for each coin?
Well, now I know how this happens
Since the Mint admits in their response to Lope's FOIA each of these coins was struck three times, wouldn't that mean the coin shown here by Jesse could be certified as a triple strike error? >>
HMMMMMM, you mean as opposed to machine ejection doubling or tripling being the cause? Very interesting
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
<< <i>HMMMMMM, you mean as opposed to machine ejection doubling or tripling being the cause? Very interesting
Exactly!