<< One that I find curious, though, is how the Smithsonian unc gold has really dropped compared to higher mintage Olympic gold commems. I wonder what's going on with that--some kind of promotion maybe? More cohesiveness in the Olympic set? >>
The current prices for the 1995-96 uncirculated Olympic gold coins make no sense to me. The uncirculated 1995 Torch Runner has a 61% higher mintage than the Smithsonian, yet sells for about 25% more. The Torch Runner also has a higher mintage than the uncirculated 1996-D Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar, but sells for more than 3 times its price.
I don't see how current and future collector demand justifies this premium. Commemorative silver dollars are more widely collected than commemorative gold, so the Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar should at least match the price of the Torch Runner $5 gold. Furthermore, collectors prefer proofs by at least a 3 to 1 margin over uncirculated coins, as reflected in initial sales from the Mint. I can't see most collectors shelling out $800 or more for an uncirculated Torch Runner when the better-looking proof can be acquired for near melt.
Over the long run, I expect that these price relationships will adjust to reflect true collector demand.
By 2004, the trend in Plat mintages had been on a downward spiral due to the cost, and due to the attrition in the ranks of potential collectors for several years. It was clear that a key would have to materialize at some point, but nobody knew which year that would be. With that as a backdrop, the Mint decided to aggressively raise the price of the 2004 Proof Plats by 60% from the year before, which as you might expect served to dampen the already waning demand. The coin sales languished into March or April of 2005 before they were finally pulled. Nobody seemed to know even the approximate mintages and nobody wanted to sink a bunch of money into what seemed to be a declining series.
Anyone who bought the 2004 Plats had to swallow hard before doing it.
2008 was an entirely different situation. The Mint had been pumping out winners right and left for 3 years, and the 2008 Plats were a known entity. Buying the 2008 Plats was a much easier call, especially since the mintages were being tracked by several knowledgeable groups of collectors.
Eventually, the lower mintages will rule.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i><< One that I find curious, though, is how the Smithsonian unc gold has really dropped compared to higher mintage Olympic gold commems. I wonder what's going on with that--some kind of promotion maybe? More cohesiveness in the Olympic set? >>
The current prices for the 1995-96 uncirculated Olympic gold coins make no sense to me. The uncirculated 1995 Torch Runner has a 61% higher mintage than the Smithsonian, yet sells for about 25% more. The Torch Runner also has a higher mintage than the uncirculated 1996-D Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar, but sells for more than 3 times its price.
I don't see how current and future collector demand justifies this premium. Commemorative silver dollars are more widely collected than commemorative gold, so the Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar should at least match the price of the Torch Runner $5 gold. Furthermore, collectors prefer proofs by at least a 3 to 1 margin over uncirculated coins, as reflected in initial sales from the Mint. I can't see most collectors shelling out $800 or more for an uncirculated Torch Runner when the better-looking proof can be acquired for near melt.
Over the long run, I expect that these price relationships will adjust to reflect true collector demand. >>
A couple of thoughts on the afore mentioned variations in price/mintages...........
Overseas demand for Olympic coins may skew the normal price/mintage relationships. There almost certainly are more Olympic coins tucked away overseas than Smithsonian coins.
In the same vein, in regard to the Gold Torch Runner/ Wheelchair question 500 coins of each going overseas would have a far greater impact on surviving/available US $5 Olympic gold supplies than silver dollars.
Just a hunch but I would expect overseas buyers to be more likely to buy complete sets of gold/silver olympic offerings rather than typical US ratios of gold/silver as reflected soly by mintages.
An additional $20-$50 postage/Ins premium for an overseas buyer of a complete set or even a gold coin would not be too bad but same premium would be very significant if applied to single silver issues.
<< <i>L. Tyler PCGS-MS70 sold tonight at $1,063.75 and an A. Harrison PCGS-MS70 sold tonight at $1,035. Logical sales prices. Sellers' net about $900/coin.
Wondercoin >>
I am not seeing that. Where did they sell? Why is that logical when we are talking about a coin (Letitia) in top grade that is a good candidate for one of the lowest mintage of the series and when the coin costs nearly $800 raw and then there are grading and shipping fees on top of that? >>
Platinum does not really excite me yet as a collector/investor but in reading Eric's text the chapter on Plat eagles was interesting. Eric mentioned the bullion houses' role in that platinum spike of years past. That reminded me of a post made of a guy on another forum I visit that he ordered a few bullion plat quarter oz. eagles from apmex and one of them they sent him was a '08 w-unc.
That reminded me of a post made of a guy on another forum I visit that he ordered a few bullion plat quarter oz. eagles from apmex and one of them they sent him was a '08 w-unc.
<< <i>That reminded me of a post made of a guy on another forum I visit that he ordered a few bullion plat quarter oz. eagles from apmex and one of them they sent him was a '08 w-unc.
<< <i>The ms $5 gold commems prices have little to do with collector strength. Promotions, promotions and promotions........... by those with strong hands.
Eric >>
Who are they being promoted to? It's not like they can be put into IRAs.
Eric, As I continue to follow the price ascendancy of the plats they have surpassed the prices in your book. Do you have any plans to update prices or perhaps have a website for more up to the minute prices, changes, or observations about them? Your book must have been a monumental task but I believe it was also a labor of love. Thanks for giving us all some new perspectives into the investment aspect of coin collecting.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
We may start using KPs US Coin Digest to cover prices in multiple grades for all "Modern American Eagles" on a more rutine basis. We don't know what we are going to do just yet. Over time I would like to see all the modern Eagles have multiple grades and descriptions that look much like old fractional gold does in the Red Book.
<< <i>We may start using KPs US Coin Digest to cover prices in multiple grades for all "Modern American Eagles" on a more rutine basis. We don't know what we are going to do just yet. Over time I would like to see all the modern Eagles have multiple grades and descriptions that look much like old fractional gold does in the Red Book.
Notice I did not say American Billion Coins. :-)
Thanks!
Eric >>
I would think having 68-70 would cover you on almost everything, Eric. Coin prices change so much, I wouldn't worry about updating them more than once/year. Knowledgeable collectors know that auctions are the only reliable gauge of these things anyway.
<< <i>Wow, anyone notice eBay asks on some of the low mintage PCGS 70 Spouses at or over $5000. >>
What's new about that? They could ask 1 million a coin but you have to have a buyer.................. >>
Oh it's new but I understand your point. I only mention it because the sells have been going up recently and was curious if this it the next level. Time will tell of course.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
You know, I say who cares? I for one will not be a slavish buyer of all mint products, and especially those of the Chuck E. Cheese variety (with all due respect to mr. Mouse). Seriously, at what point would people not buy widgets produced by the mint?
I say more power to the flippers if they can find secondary buyers & god help whoever is left holding them when the musical chairs charade ends!
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Jackie has held up pretty well. Maybe Chuck E. does have a long term market. >>
You had to be in the right place at the right time. I paid a grand for the 2004 1/10 ounce plat. Will I sell at it's lower price? No The JR was a really low mintage coin at the time and was king for years so it's been resold to collectors that paid way way over the mint price at the time. Very few holder of this type of coin going to sell since they have quite a bit in them IMO.
The hags series is full or low mintage coins (common) with almost no collector base for the whole series. This will be another 1980's Arts 1/2 slugs that sell for near bullion IMO. Most are very ugly. The 4 coin series is the best bet on these or the very popular presidents. We'll see.
Gold going to really explode in the futue so everyone will be fine. The people that make money off this series might just be those holding them after the big melts but it could take a decade or two. These things hit $1500 each and you'll have few that take that chance IMO.....Just watch PM's you'll see.
Ttown, I agree with these statements. I do confess to buying a JR in unc. from Paul Sims of all people in 1998 (for $170!!!) but it too is ugly. This "widgetitis" is pretty scary and note that a few of the silver commems of the '30s have mintages ~2000 or so and have not increased in value.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
...and note that a few of the silver commems of the '30s have mintages ~2000 or so and have not increased in value. >>
I am not seeing that. Most of the ones I see are about $1500 to $3500 in 65. No increase in value???? And what was their original cost? $1.25? I don't know but probably near there.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I've got some proof 64 seated quarter with mintages in the 600 to 700 coin levels. They are dirt cheap if only mintage mattered. Seated coinage is very expensive but the proof counter parts aren't. It's simple supply and demand, if you really think everyone going to want one of these go for it.
I like 90% junk silver better if I were to pick a lottery pick. In 79/80 when it hit 50 the goverment forced the hunts to sell causing the silver market to crash preventing much melting. This time around it's been a slow build since 2002 and rising, waiting for the big move. More and more of this stuff going to be melted and is what most collectors building sets and new collectors start with. What happens when that is melted and most of the entry level/set material stuff is gone leaving UNC's for the most part. Well I guess it could be the death of the hobby or it could be one big windfall.
2,100 mintage commem halves that are date and mint mark rare in a series that is collected by design. This is not a valid reference point.
Letitia and Julia though they do have problems because their series has cohesion/looks issues are in fact type rare in an increasingly type differentiated market. They may end up being good coins maybe very good coins but I would not want to have over about $1,200 in one.
Eric
"I've got some proof 64 seated quarter with mintages in the 600 to 700 coin levels. They are dirt cheap if only mintage mattered. Seated coinage is very expensive but the proof counter parts aren't. It's simple supply and demand, if you really think everyone going to want one of these go for it."
The problem with this reference IMHO is that the seated quarters with motto that it looks like you are referencing are also collected mostly by type and not by date. Bowers estimates that about 18,000 seated proof quarters with motto are still in pr60-pr68 form. 18,000 coins for a coin collected by type (design) will take forever to get expensive........ and it is taking forever. If you have not gotten your market price up after 100 years it not going to happen.
<< <i> "I've got some proof 64 seated quarter with mintages in the 600 to 700 coin levels. They are dirt cheap if only mintage mattered. Seated coinage is very expensive but the proof counter parts aren't. It's simple supply and demand, if you really think everyone going to want one of these go for it."
The problem with this reference IMHO is that the seated quarters with motto that it looks like you are referencing are also collected mostly by type and not by date. Bowers estimates that about 18,000 seated proof quarters with motto are still in pr60-pr68 form. 18,000 coins for a coin collected by type (design) will take forever to get expensive........ and it is taking forever. If you have not gotten your market price up after 100 years it not going to happen. >>
And and you could argue that(using your language):
The problem with this reference IMHO is that the first spouce are also collected mostly by type and not by date. and X# of these coins times the whole series brings us right back to the example. A coin collected by type (design) will take forever to get expensive........ and it is taking forever.
Right now this series is full of speculators not collectors and that will need to happen. IMO you'll see new mintage lows every year as gold goes up in value and new lows are almost common place today unlike when this started with the plats in 2006.
<< <i>2,100 mintage commem halves that are date and mint mark rare in a series that is collected by design. This is not a valid reference point.
Letitia and Julia though they do have problems because their series has cohesion/looks issues are in fact type rare in an increasingly type differentiated market. They may end up being good coins maybe very good coins but I would not want to have over about $1,200 in one.
It is wise to be cautious, especially in a series that is not finished. In a strictly financial sense, they often say the profit is made in the purchase. Those paying the high ticket price may come out winners in the future but it is a risk they will have to weigh. True for all coin purchases. I often question the million dollar purchases of some rare coins but most of the time it seems to work out good for the buyer.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Right now this series is full of speculators not collectors and that will need to happen. IMO you'll see new mintage lows every year as gold goes up in value and new lows are almost common place today unlike when this started with the plats in 2006. >>
I don't know how a series that is full of speculators can only sell 2800 coins. IMO the low numbers indicate the speculators are elsewhere and the collectors rule. Look on eBay and you will usually see only a handfull of sellers-not indicative of a speculator's paradise. I would say that early on they were there but they soon left for greener pastures.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Right now this series is full of speculators not collectors and that will need to happen. IMO you'll see new mintage lows every year as gold goes up in value and new lows are almost common place today unlike when this started with the plats in 2006. >>
I don't know how a series that is full of speculators can only sell 2800 coins. IMO the low numbers indicate the speculators are elsewhere and the collectors rule. Look on eBay and you will usually see only a handfull of sellers-not indicative of a speculator's paradise. I would say that early on they were there but they soon left for greener pastures. >>
I bet a large number are owned by board members. Maybe you didn't follow all the speculation threads over the years. The average collector doesn't even know you can buy from the mint. We have people on these various threads buying 100 or 50 is that a collector or someone dumping on Ebay for a quick profit or a pre-release sell? You tell me, I know what I think. I'm a collector and all I've seen here lately is how much jack your guys are going to make. I guess it's nice to think these are all collector only buying 1 coin, read and you'll see otherwise. Ebay now is the new collector market, it sure isn't direct from the mint.
Go back and look at when the Buffalo came out everyone was buying way more than one. Was that mintage high or low? Same with the 06 W UNC plat. We all rushed to buy as many as we could get, of course I purchase 1 of each and didn't sell at the high and don't regret doing so although they've came way down. I collect the 1/10 and 1/4 ounce series.
The first hags have an almost identical structure to the old commem halves except they are struck on gold. Some of them are ugly. Some are stupid like the music center half and almost all the members are design differentiated. That does not stop the better-looking old commems with low mintages from having good key date behavior in a type context. Collecting by type is normally defined as collecting by design denomination and composition.
Maybe the market will think that just buying a single Martha will fill the personal need. I think HAGS will act like the old commem model. Collectors will buy the good-looking issues with low mintages and the liberty short set and be done with them. Many will languish for years but the cream will rise.
Maybe I just missed it but I have never heard of anyone buying 100 of these. I suppose it happens but that happens for anything the Mint produces- even platinum. Actually, I have seen more dumping on these than anything.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>The first hags have an almost identical structure to the old commem halves except they are struck on gold. Some of them are ugly. Some are stupid like the music center half and almost all the members are design differentiated. That does not stop the better-looking old commems with low mintages from having good key date behavior in a type context. Collecting by type is normally defined as collecting by design denomination and composition.
Maybe the market will think that just buying a single Martha will fill the personal need. I think HAGS will act like the old commem model. Collectors will buy the good-looking issues with low mintages and the liberty short set and be done with them. Many will languish for years but the cream will rise. >>
I totally agree......................... BTW Eric I liked your book.
The problem with gold is it's real money and is the standard that all fiat currency are measured. Gold doesn't go up or down it maintains it's buying power in todays dollars. So when gold goes north of $2000 and it looks like you made one heck of a purchase have you or can you just buy about the same in dollars then than now? I purchased $20 libs/saints in 2002 at $260 gold, that's the sign of printing money and gold holding it's value it really hasn't brought a ton of new collectors to that market.
There's various views and that's fine. Just make sure you buy what you like because just like 79/80 this will top and drop. Don't be stuck with ugly for 20 or 30 years, these cycles happen once or twice in ones lifetime and I'm lucky to have caught 2 (might be wishful thinking but we'll save that debate for the PM board).
Even the low-mintage ugly spouses will always carry a large premium. If they have nothing else going for them, they are a U.S. coins (unlike arts medallions), they are pure gold, and they are scarce. Perhaps the last of the ultra-low mintage gold issues. Collectors will not try to assemble aset but they will want one of the vaunted scarce ones for their collection. The numbers will speak loudly.
<< <i>Even the low-mintage ugly spouses will always carry a large premium. If they have nothing else going for them, they are a U.S. coins (unlike arts medallions), they are pure gold, and they are scarce. Perhaps the last of the ultra-low mintage gold issues. Collectors will not try to assemble aset but they will want one of the vaunted scarce ones for their collection. The numbers will speak loudly. >>
Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow
[Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow >>
Your gloomy forcast would seem to doom all coin collecting other than pulling a great set of post 1965 copper cents out of circulation.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
The 2009-2010 Spouse's have just as many or more bids (On eBay) as any gold out there. Look it up. I'm not talking about a Martha Washinton or even a Jefferson's Liberty. I'm talking about the 09-10 issues. Buchanan's Liberty will be very interesting. And you know Mary Todd Lincoln will be a popular issue. IMHO the 20th century coins will surge and the mintages will be higher, leaving the 09-10 as the cream of the crop....
<< <i>[Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow >>
Your gloomy forcast would seem to doom all coin collecting other than pulling a great set of post 1965 copper cents out of circulation. >>
Yes no need to call me a "tin foil" guy. It's all out there and it's not in hiding...believe what you want. The goverment stats are bad enough and they're making them to look the best they can. This is just a time to preserve capitol not play the casino, this too will pass and those with cash are going to be rich imo......timing everything in every market. Some of you will luck out thinking buying these coins is going to make you much $$$ when in fact the PM play is what's going to save you at present. The market will correct as things really get better and no one will want gold or silver, that's where the build of the collectors market will do well again. Coin collecting has never been an investment unless you think the past doesn't matter and this time it's different.
<< <i>The first hags have an almost identical structure to the old commem halves except they are struck on gold. Some of them are ugly. Some are stupid like the music center half and almost all the members are design differentiated. >>
Compared to classic commem halves, the First Spouse coins actually have quite a bit more design consistency. The obverses all have the portrait in the center, the name of the spouse on top, "In God We Trust" on the left, "Liberty" and the date on the right, and the presidency number and dates below the portrait. The reverses have consistent inscriptions around the rim. Only the designs in the center of the reverse vary to any great extent. The "Liberty" subset varies somewhat from the rest of the series but it has a reasonable amount of internal consistency.
Who said things were going to get better. This downward never ending spiral started with "DICK" Nixon. And it won't matter who's "DICK" is in charge now. This version of Apocalypto has been written and produced many years ago.
<< <i>Even the low-mintage ugly spouses will always carry a large premium. If they have nothing else going for them, they are a U.S. coins (unlike arts medallions), they are pure gold, and they are scarce. Perhaps the last of the ultra-low mintage gold issues. Collectors will not try to assemble aset but they will want one of the vaunted scarce ones for their collection. The numbers will speak loudly. >>
Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow >>
Don't get me wrong I'm VERY much on board with the ship-is-going-down outlook. The demographics alone suggest -- if not spell-- doom not only to the US economy, but even US coin collecting in general. But as long as you are investing in gold, spouses that are "bought well" will keep and I believe expand their premiums -- in absolute number of coins, sub-5000 is a very small # for US gold and that number will keep them afloat.
I too am on board with the "the US is in a world of poop" with our 60-120 trillion dollar debt to the pending baby boomers amoung others but I can think of no better place to hide than very high bullion content modern coins with mintages as close as you can get to zero. I do wish gold & platinum were cheaper and if you look at the CBOs numbers for the 2012-2015 period with deficits as a percentage of GDP falling back to 5% maybe gold will retrace in nominal dollars but when you look out to 2020 and see structural deficits running 10% of GDP and rising how can we expect the precious metals as a group to be cheaper than they are today?
I think we are all in the right place more or less.
i don't want to list on ebay and go the route but will unless i can get some reasonable offer from a dealer or other on some of my coins.
i really don't want to sell but need some cash now.
i have the followoing
2009 buffalo proof in OGP capsule never opened pcgs thomas jefferson liberty PF69 first strike 2008 celebration buffalo in unopened sealed box from the mint 2008 " " opened, never opened capsule in OGP 1882 pcgs XF45 $20 liberty gold 2000 ngc MS69 AGE $25 gold coin 1911 ngc ms69 st gauden $20 gold 1924 pcgs ms64 st gauden $20 gold 1894s pcgs ms62 liberty $20 gold 1896s pcgs ms62 liberty $20 gold 2006 $25 AGE in OGP unc/ms 1927 50 peso 37.5 g puro gold bought from dealer and told will grade ms64 its very good looking
i need to sell something, not all at all but something so I have 5K
I am in westchester county, ny
I will be in San Francisco Monday for two weeks
prefer to deal in person, cash i would only take a check that I sign hand back to you for cash as well.
I am going to go to scarsdale coin and see what John Lerner can offer me.
please pm me with any interest
your help is appreciated.
I am disabled and need to buy a power scooter and some other things for my kids.
trust me I wish I didn't have to sell anything.
thank you
if you want to speak to me then pm me your tel #
Ships are safe in harbor but thats not what ships were built for.
Your gloomy forcast would seem to doom all coin collecting other than pulling a great set of post 1965 copper cents out of circulation. >>
Yes no need to call me a "tin foil" guy. It's all out there and it's not in hiding...believe what you want. The goverment stats are bad enough and they're making them to look the best they can. This is just a time to preserve capitol not play the casino, this too will pass and those with cash are going to be rich imo......timing everything in every market. Some of you will luck out thinking buying these coins is going to make you much $$$ when in fact the PM play is what's going to save you at present. The market will correct as things really get better and no one will want gold or silver, that's where the build of the collectors market will do well again. Coin collecting has never been an investment unless you think the past doesn't matter and this time it's different. >>
For the record, I was not implying a rosy economic situation but pointing out that a bad economic environment will drag the value of most collectible coins down-not just the ones you don't like now. I am not sure why you cannot view a coin collection as an investment-and a fun one as long as it is kept in perspective.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
2009 buffalo proof in OGP capsule never opened pcgs thomas jefferson liberty PF69 first strike 2008 celebration buffalo in unopened sealed box from the mint 2008 " " opened, never opened capsule in OGP 2000 ngc MS69 AGE $25 gold coin 2006 $25 AGE in OGP unc/ms
All the above material is very common and will be in our lifetimes so you can sell it at just over melt to almost anybody. Kitco, Silver town, even the local shops should all pay at least melt.
Comments
The current prices for the 1995-96 uncirculated Olympic gold coins make no sense to me. The uncirculated 1995 Torch Runner has a 61% higher mintage than the Smithsonian, yet sells for about 25% more. The Torch Runner also has a higher mintage than the uncirculated 1996-D Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar, but sells for more than 3 times its price.
I don't see how current and future collector demand justifies this premium. Commemorative silver dollars are more widely collected than commemorative gold, so the Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar should at least match the price of the Torch Runner $5 gold. Furthermore, collectors prefer proofs by at least a 3 to 1 margin over uncirculated coins, as reflected in initial sales from the Mint. I can't see most collectors shelling out $800 or more for an uncirculated Torch Runner when the better-looking proof can be acquired for near melt.
Over the long run, I expect that these price relationships will adjust to reflect true collector demand.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Anyone who bought the 2004 Plats had to swallow hard before doing it.
2008 was an entirely different situation. The Mint had been pumping out winners right and left for 3 years, and the 2008 Plats were a known entity. Buying the 2008 Plats was a much easier call, especially since the mintages were being tracked by several knowledgeable groups of collectors.
Eventually, the lower mintages will rule.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i><< One that I find curious, though, is how the Smithsonian unc gold has really dropped compared to higher mintage Olympic gold commems. I wonder what's going on with that--some kind of promotion maybe? More cohesiveness in the Olympic set? >>
The current prices for the 1995-96 uncirculated Olympic gold coins make no sense to me. The uncirculated 1995 Torch Runner has a 61% higher mintage than the Smithsonian, yet sells for about 25% more. The Torch Runner also has a higher mintage than the uncirculated 1996-D Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar, but sells for more than 3 times its price.
I don't see how current and future collector demand justifies this premium. Commemorative silver dollars are more widely collected than commemorative gold, so the Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar should at least match the price of the Torch Runner $5 gold. Furthermore, collectors prefer proofs by at least a 3 to 1 margin over uncirculated coins, as reflected in initial sales from the Mint. I can't see most collectors shelling out $800 or more for an uncirculated Torch Runner when the better-looking proof can be acquired for near melt.
Over the long run, I expect that these price relationships will adjust to reflect true collector demand. >>
A couple of thoughts on the afore mentioned variations in price/mintages...........
Overseas demand for Olympic coins may skew the normal price/mintage relationships.
There almost certainly are more Olympic coins tucked away overseas than Smithsonian coins.
In the same vein, in regard to the Gold Torch Runner/ Wheelchair question 500 coins of each going overseas would have a far greater impact on surviving/available US $5 Olympic gold supplies than silver dollars.
Just a hunch but I would expect overseas buyers to be more likely to buy complete sets of gold/silver olympic offerings rather than typical US ratios of gold/silver as reflected soly by mintages.
An additional $20-$50 postage/Ins premium for an overseas buyer of a complete set or even a gold coin would not be too bad but same premium would be very significant if applied to single silver issues.
<< <i>
<< <i>L. Tyler PCGS-MS70 sold tonight at $1,063.75 and an A. Harrison PCGS-MS70 sold tonight at $1,035. Logical sales prices. Sellers' net about $900/coin.
Wondercoin >>
I am not seeing that. Where did they sell? Why is that logical when we are talking about a coin (Letitia) in top grade that is a good candidate for one of the lowest mintage of the series and when the coin costs nearly $800 raw and then there are grading and shipping fees on top of that? >>
I am not seeing that either.
Eric
What a lucky B! I never get that lucky!!!
<< <i>That reminded me of a post made of a guy on another forum I visit that he ordered a few bullion plat quarter oz. eagles from apmex and one of them they sent him was a '08 w-unc.
What a lucky B! I never get that lucky!!! >>
Amazing that Apmex missed that one!
<< <i>The ms $5 gold commems prices have little to do with collector strength. Promotions, promotions and promotions........... by those with strong hands.
Eric >>
Who are they being promoted to? It's not like they can be put into IRAs.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Notice I did not say American Billion Coins. :-)
Thanks!
Eric
<< <i>We may start using KPs US Coin Digest to cover prices in multiple grades for all "Modern American Eagles" on a more rutine basis. We don't know what we are going to do just yet. Over time I would like to see all the modern Eagles have multiple grades and descriptions that look much like old fractional gold does in the Red Book.
Notice I did not say American Billion Coins. :-)
Thanks!
Eric >>
I would think having 68-70 would cover you on almost everything, Eric. Coin prices change so much, I wouldn't worry about updating them more than once/year. Knowledgeable collectors know that auctions are the only reliable gauge of these things anyway.
RAW
MS68.......MS69.......MS70
<< <i>Wow, anyone notice eBay asks on some of the low mintage PCGS 70 Spouses at or over $5000. >>
What's new about that? They could ask 1 million a coin but you have to have a buyer..................
<< <i>Wow, anyone notice eBay asks on some of the low mintage PCGS 70 Spouses at or over $5000. >>
Yes, but the other day I saw (2) Gold Julia Tyler PCGS MS70 FS go for $ 400.00 each......LOL
Just an inside joke between me and myself...
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, anyone notice eBay asks on some of the low mintage PCGS 70 Spouses at or over $5000. >>
What's new about that? They could ask 1 million a coin but you have to have a buyer.................. >>
Oh it's new but I understand your point. I only mention it because the sells have been going up recently and was curious if this it the next level. Time will tell of course.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, anyone notice eBay asks on some of the low mintage PCGS 70 Spouses at or over $5000. >>
Yes, but the other day I saw (2) Gold Julia Tyler PCGS MS70 FS go for $ 400.00 each......LOL
Just an inside joke between me and myself...
I hope the both of you had a good laugh.
Good Luck in the future if you want a Julia Tyler !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look at the price's just on the 2010 Jane Pierce.
She may be a "hag" but she's lookin' kind of purdy to me.
I say more power to the flippers if they can find secondary buyers & god help whoever is left holding them when the musical chairs charade ends!
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Jackie has held up pretty well. Maybe Chuck E. does have a long term market. >>
You had to be in the right place at the right time. I paid a grand for the 2004 1/10 ounce plat. Will I sell at it's lower price? No
The JR was a really low mintage coin at the time and was king for years so it's been resold to collectors that paid way way over the mint price at the time. Very few holder of this type of coin going to sell since they have quite a bit in them IMO.
The hags series is full or low mintage coins (common) with almost no collector base for the whole series. This will be another 1980's Arts 1/2 slugs that sell for near bullion IMO. Most are very ugly. The 4 coin series is the best bet on these or the very popular presidents. We'll see.
Gold going to really explode in the futue so everyone will be fine. The people that make money off this series might just be those holding them after the big melts but it could take a decade or two. These things hit $1500 each and you'll have few that take that chance IMO.....Just watch PM's you'll see.
Well, just Love coins, period.
An 1893-S Morgan is a Widget. You can buy them on eBay 24/7 ...7 Days a Week
And it comes completely rubbed and worn out for your enjoyment..
I am not seeing that. Most of the ones I see are about $1500 to $3500 in 65. No increase in value???? And what was their original cost? $1.25? I don't know but probably near there.
I like 90% junk silver better if I were to pick a lottery pick. In 79/80 when it hit 50 the goverment forced the hunts to sell causing the silver market to crash preventing much melting. This time around it's been a slow build since 2002 and rising, waiting for the big move. More and more of this stuff going to be melted and is what most collectors building sets and new collectors start with. What happens when that is melted and most of the entry level/set material stuff is gone leaving UNC's for the most part. Well I guess it could be the death of the hobby or it could be one big windfall.
Letitia and Julia though they do have problems because their series has cohesion/looks issues are in fact type rare in an increasingly type differentiated market. They may end up being good coins maybe very good coins but I would not want to have over about $1,200 in one.
Eric
"I've got some proof 64 seated quarter with mintages in the 600 to 700 coin levels. They are dirt cheap if only mintage mattered. Seated coinage is very expensive but the proof counter parts aren't. It's simple supply and demand, if you really think everyone going to want one of these go for it."
The problem with this reference IMHO is that the seated quarters with motto that it looks like you are referencing are also collected mostly by type and not by date. Bowers estimates that about 18,000 seated proof quarters with motto are still in pr60-pr68 form. 18,000 coins for a coin collected by type (design) will take forever to get expensive........ and it is taking forever. If you have not gotten your market price up after 100 years it not going to happen.
<< <i>
"I've got some proof 64 seated quarter with mintages in the 600 to 700 coin levels. They are dirt cheap if only mintage mattered. Seated coinage is very expensive but the proof counter parts aren't. It's simple supply and demand, if you really think everyone going to want one of these go for it."
The problem with this reference IMHO is that the seated quarters with motto that it looks like you are referencing are also collected mostly by type and not by date. Bowers estimates that about 18,000 seated proof quarters with motto are still in pr60-pr68 form. 18,000 coins for a coin collected by type (design) will take forever to get expensive........ and it is taking forever. If you have not gotten your market price up after 100 years it not going to happen. >>
And and you could argue that(using your language):
The problem with this reference IMHO is that the first spouce are also collected mostly by type and not by date. and X# of these coins times the whole series brings us right back to the example. A coin collected by type (design) will take forever to get expensive........ and it is taking forever.
Right now this series is full of speculators not collectors and that will need to happen. IMO you'll see new mintage lows every year as gold goes up in value and new lows are almost common place today unlike when this started with the plats in 2006.
<< <i>2,100 mintage commem halves that are date and mint mark rare in a series that is collected by design. This is not a valid reference point.
Letitia and Julia though they do have problems because their series has cohesion/looks issues are in fact type rare in an increasingly type differentiated market. They may end up being good coins maybe very good coins but I would not want to have over about $1,200 in one.
It is wise to be cautious, especially in a series that is not finished. In a strictly financial sense, they often say the profit is made in the purchase. Those paying the high ticket price may come out winners in the future but it is a risk they will have to weigh. True for all coin purchases. I often question the million dollar purchases of some rare coins but most of the time it seems to work out good for the buyer.
I don't know how a series that is full of speculators can only sell 2800 coins. IMO the low numbers indicate the speculators are elsewhere and the collectors rule. Look on eBay and you will usually see only a handfull of sellers-not indicative of a speculator's paradise. I would say that early on they were there but they soon left for greener pastures.
<< <i>Right now this series is full of speculators not collectors and that will need to happen. IMO you'll see new mintage lows every year as gold goes up in value and new lows are almost common place today unlike when this started with the plats in 2006. >>
I don't know how a series that is full of speculators can only sell 2800 coins. IMO the low numbers indicate the speculators are elsewhere and the collectors rule. Look on eBay and you will usually see only a handfull of sellers-not indicative of a speculator's paradise. I would say that early on they were there but they soon left for greener pastures. >>
I bet a large number are owned by board members. Maybe you didn't follow all the speculation threads over the years. The average collector doesn't even know you can buy from the mint. We have people on these various threads buying 100 or 50 is that a collector or someone dumping on Ebay for a quick profit or a pre-release sell? You tell me, I know what I think. I'm a collector and all I've seen here lately is how much jack your guys are going to make. I guess it's nice to think these are all collector only buying 1 coin, read and you'll see otherwise. Ebay now is the new collector market, it sure isn't direct from the mint.
Go back and look at when the Buffalo came out everyone was buying way more than one. Was that mintage high or low? Same with the 06 W UNC plat. We all rushed to buy as many as we could get, of course I purchase 1 of each and didn't sell at the high and don't regret doing so although they've came way down. I collect the 1/10 and 1/4 ounce series.
Maybe the market will think that just buying a single Martha will fill the personal need. I think HAGS will act like the old commem model. Collectors will buy the good-looking issues with low mintages and the liberty short set and be done with them. Many will languish for years but the cream will rise.
<< <i>The first hags have an almost identical structure to the old commem halves except they are struck on gold. Some of them are ugly. Some are stupid like the music center half and almost all the members are design differentiated. That does not stop the better-looking old commems with low mintages from having good key date behavior in a type context. Collecting by type is normally defined as collecting by design denomination and composition.
Maybe the market will think that just buying a single Martha will fill the personal need. I think HAGS will act like the old commem model. Collectors will buy the good-looking issues with low mintages and the liberty short set and be done with them. Many will languish for years but the cream will rise. >>
I totally agree......................... BTW Eric I liked your book.
The problem with gold is it's real money and is the standard that all fiat currency are measured. Gold doesn't go up or down it maintains it's buying power in todays dollars. So when gold goes north of $2000 and it looks like you made one heck of a purchase have you or can you just buy about the same in dollars then than now? I purchased $20 libs/saints in 2002 at $260 gold, that's the sign of printing money and gold holding it's value it really hasn't brought a ton of new collectors to that market.
There's various views and that's fine. Just make sure you buy what you like because just like 79/80 this will top and drop. Don't be stuck with ugly for 20 or 30 years, these cycles happen once or twice in ones lifetime and I'm lucky to have caught 2 (might be wishful thinking but we'll save that debate for the PM board).
<< <i>Even the low-mintage ugly spouses will always carry a large premium. If they have nothing else going for them, they are a U.S. coins (unlike arts medallions), they are pure gold, and they are scarce. Perhaps the last of the ultra-low mintage gold issues. Collectors will not try to assemble aset but they will want one of the vaunted scarce ones for their collection. The numbers will speak loudly. >>
Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow
Your gloomy forcast would seem to doom all coin collecting other than pulling a great set of post 1965 copper cents out of circulation.
<< <i>[Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow
Your gloomy forcast would seem to doom all coin collecting other than pulling a great set of post 1965 copper cents out of circulation. >>
Yes no need to call me a "tin foil" guy. It's all out there and it's not in hiding...believe what you want. The goverment stats are bad enough and they're making them to look the best they can. This is just a time to preserve capitol not play the casino, this too will pass and those with cash are going to be rich imo......timing everything in every market. Some of you will luck out thinking buying these coins is going to make you much $$$ when in fact the PM play is what's going to save you at present. The market will correct as things really get better and no one will want gold or silver, that's where the build of the collectors market will do well again. Coin collecting has never been an investment unless you think the past doesn't matter and this time it's different.
<< <i>The first hags have an almost identical structure to the old commem halves except they are struck on gold. Some of them are ugly. Some are stupid like the music center half and almost all the members are design differentiated. >>
Compared to classic commem halves, the First Spouse coins actually have quite a bit more design consistency. The obverses all have the portrait in the center, the name of the spouse on top, "In God We Trust" on the left, "Liberty" and the date on the right, and the presidency number and dates below the portrait. The reverses have consistent inscriptions around the rim. Only the designs in the center of the reverse vary to any great extent. The "Liberty" subset varies somewhat from the rest of the series but it has a reasonable amount of internal consistency.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
So to you "My Fellow American's"
<< <i>
<< <i>Even the low-mintage ugly spouses will always carry a large premium. If they have nothing else going for them, they are a U.S. coins (unlike arts medallions), they are pure gold, and they are scarce. Perhaps the last of the ultra-low mintage gold issues. Collectors will not try to assemble aset but they will want one of the vaunted scarce ones for their collection. The numbers will speak loudly. >>
Yes all the problems of the world are solved and people are now where they can spend into space again. The middle class is growing and taxes are about to go down. Almost every household has lots of cash (US/WorldWide). Yes food, clothes, mandated health care, utilities etc aren't a problem for most people since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Wishful thinking but you better wake up although I wish you are right.....................................You could be dead before that happens maybe your kids or grand kids might have a shot when the go on the roadshow
Don't get me wrong I'm VERY much on board with the ship-is-going-down outlook. The demographics alone suggest -- if not spell-- doom not only to the US economy, but even US coin collecting in general. But as long as you are investing in gold, spouses that are "bought well" will keep and I believe expand their premiums -- in absolute number of coins, sub-5000 is a very small # for US gold and that number will keep them afloat.
I think we are all in the right place more or less.
Eric
please offer me some advice
i need to raise some cash now.
i don't want to list on ebay and go the route but will unless i can get some reasonable offer from a dealer or other on some of my coins.
i really don't want to sell but need some cash now.
i have the followoing
2009 buffalo proof in OGP capsule never opened
pcgs thomas jefferson liberty PF69 first strike
2008 celebration buffalo in unopened sealed box from the mint
2008 " " opened, never opened capsule in OGP
1882 pcgs XF45 $20 liberty gold
2000 ngc MS69 AGE $25 gold coin
1911 ngc ms69 st gauden $20 gold
1924 pcgs ms64 st gauden $20 gold
1894s pcgs ms62 liberty $20 gold
1896s pcgs ms62 liberty $20 gold
2006 $25 AGE in OGP unc/ms
1927 50 peso 37.5 g puro gold bought from dealer and told will grade ms64 its very good looking
i need to sell something, not all at all but something so I have 5K
I am in westchester county, ny
I will be in San Francisco Monday for two weeks
prefer to deal in person, cash
i would only take a check that I sign hand back to you for cash as well.
I am going to go to scarsdale coin and see what John Lerner can offer me.
please pm me with any interest
your help is appreciated.
I am disabled and need to buy a power scooter and some other things for my kids.
trust me I wish I didn't have to sell anything.
thank you
if you want to speak to me then pm me your tel #
Yes no need to call me a "tin foil" guy. It's all out there and it's not in hiding...believe what you want. The goverment stats are bad enough and they're making them to look the best they can. This is just a time to preserve capitol not play the casino, this too will pass and those with cash are going to be rich imo......timing everything in every market. Some of you will luck out thinking buying these coins is going to make you much $$$ when in fact the PM play is what's going to save you at present. The market will correct as things really get better and no one will want gold or silver, that's where the build of the collectors market will do well again. Coin collecting has never been an investment unless you think the past doesn't matter and this time it's different. >>
For the record, I was not implying a rosy economic situation but pointing out that a bad economic environment will drag the value of most collectible coins down-not just the ones you don't like now. I am not sure why you cannot view a coin collection as an investment-and a fun one as long as it is kept in perspective.
pcgs thomas jefferson liberty PF69 first strike
2008 celebration buffalo in unopened sealed box from the mint
2008 " " opened, never opened capsule in OGP
2000 ngc MS69 AGE $25 gold coin
2006 $25 AGE in OGP unc/ms
All the above material is very common and will be in our lifetimes so you can sell it at just over melt to almost anybody. Kitco, Silver town, even the local shops should all pay at least melt.
Thanks
Eric
PS: You cash requirement hurts you sale options.