That is an amazing price, I am speechless for the first time.
Congrats to everyone that bought and held on to these buffalo coins. >>
Yes, Congrats! Particularly those that may have FS Buffalos!
I avoid underestimating the power of these VERY popular and VERY sought after Buff Fractionals. For those measuring the potential, what set or individual Mint coin would
you use as a measuring stick? It's difficult to compare these with the Plat Sets, other Gold Sets, other World Mint Sets, etc..
The prices, although obscenely high, are indicative of a desire to own a VERY unique piece of Gold. We all know they will fluctuate. We have seen that happpen.
Right now; though, the fluctuations are in one direction.
Unless the Mint decides to strike some more after the capacity and planchet shortage subsides. For the moment and maybe long term they are a one year type coin. If the buffs stay a one year type all you say about how great they are is likley correct. If they strike buff bullion fractionals going forward then its not so certain. These are not one year type coins by force of annual changing designs. They are one year type coins by momentary circumstance. Circumstances can change.
I pulled up this email from one of my favorite dealers from 7/28/08. I remember thinking "nah, I'll wait, they'll sell tons of these, no point in paying so much for the FS label"... :-(
On the other hand, I am most grateful that I bought a bunch of them from the Mint in Nov. and kept most of them, just not PCGS FS. Oh well.
Anyway, thought you all might enjoy the email from July...
2008w Buffalos are here!!! I can now solidify and confirm the 69 pricing and PCGS 70 pricing (NGC 70 pricing available upon request). Here are the pricing for the sets and singles:
New 2008-W Buffalos…
2008-W 4 Piece Set Proof Buffalo PCGS PR69 DCAM First Strike – $2275
There's been a lot of discussion about the 2008 1/4-oz unc-w gold eagle, and yet the PCGS price guide still shows these with no particular premium. What's going on? Are they that slow?
Hey, where's that cool spreadsheet someone posted? I can't even remember who--sorry. I'd like to see it again, with the updated numbers if the author wouldn't mind. Thanks!
I agree with 7/8 that the 08w platinums are undervalued right now, especially now that the mintages have been finalized.
I also join in the surprise with how fast and how far the buffalos have run. As Eric points out, there is potential vulnerability if the Mint decided to revive the fractionals (which I doubt will happen). Only time will tell if it's a buffalo bubble; current prices could easily be justified by the larger gold collector base and the love of the buffalo design. The 2009 UHR gold sales figures suggest a significant base exists for modern gold coins with classic designs.
Anyone know if those UHRs could go into IRAs? Or thoughts on how many went to dealers? I've been VERY surprised how many sold, though I am delighted to have one myself.
They are not given class acceptance like the silver gold and platinum eagles are. They can be included if they are bought at no more than about 1.1 times melt.
The recently launched (in USA) platinum Exchange Traded Fund already has nearly 2 million shares, or 200K ounces. This additional investor demand, if it continues, could drive platinum prices higher and encourage further melting of platinum eagles.
I still don't understand why further investor demand would cause the melting of platinum eagles. I mean, they are already .9999 fine, guaranteed by the US Gov. Why melt them, only to incur further assaying costs? It just doesn't make sense. Pulling them off the market to stuff inside the ETF I can understand, but melting them - no. The only way this would make sense is if the bylaws of the ETF state that it can only hold bars of the metal (Credit Suisse or JM for example).
First to meet industrial/jewelry demand where 90% of platinum goes.
As far as the ETFs it would depend on how the ETF was set up.............
I'm sure in prospectus it clearly states in what form platinum is held.
Most likely in 10-100 oz assayed bars.
It would be very inefficient to have a large number of coins from various countries in various denominations.
Also these coins could be counterfiet.............certainly not assayed.
From a numismatic standpoint I think we will see continued melting/scrapage of raw and lower graded platinum coins skewing surviving populations toward MS/PR70s.
During the last price run-up, there were numerous reports of platinum eagles, both common and scarce, being sent to the melting pot. This occurred because the price that non-numismatic buyers were willing to pay (possibly for industrial uses and investor demand for physical bars) equaled or exceeded the price that owners of platinum eagles were willing to accept.
If the price of platinum goes high enough, I would expect this chain of events to repeat itself.
<< <i>The recently launched (in USA) platinum Exchange Traded Fund already has nearly 2 million shares, or 200K ounces. This additional investor demand, if it continues, could drive platinum prices higher and encourage further melting of platinum eagles. >>
I would like to understand this more. What economic forces drive an individual to melt a coin when they could just trade the coin outright?
OOps, Should have read further before posting. Never mind. Although, other than the IRA or ETF storage requirements I would think that industrial demand would be the largest factor, not spot price.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I would like to understand this more. What economic forces drive an individual to melt a coin when they could just trade the coin outright? >>
One possible scenario: Price of platinum rises. A collector sells or trades a platinum coin to local coin dealer for bullion-related price. The dealer, if unable to resell the platinum coin to a collector, sends it to a company that buys coins for melting. Coin gets melted and becomes part of a platinum bar. Bar then gets sold to investor or industrial user.
>> I would think that industrial demand would be the largest factor, not spot price. <<
The level of industrial demand is a big factor in determining the spot price.
<< <i>I would like to understand this more. What economic forces drive an individual to melt a coin when they could just trade the coin outright? >>
One possible scenario: Price of platinum rises. A collector sells or trades a platinum coin to local coin dealer for bullion-related price. The dealer, if unable to resell the platinum coin to a collector, sends it to a company that buys coins for melting. Coin gets melted and becomes part of a platinum bar. Bar then gets sold to investor or industrial user.
>> I would think that industrial demand would be the largest factor, not spot price. <<
The level of industrial demand is a big factor in determining the spot price. >>
True, but speculation or hoarding can also cause price increases. Too bad there isn't a law requiring smelters to report coins melted by date. That would be nice but I don't think it would ever be done though.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I still don't understand why further investor demand would cause the melting of platinum eagles. I mean, they are already .9999 fine, guaranteed by the US Gov. Why melt them, only to incur further assaying costs? It just doesn't make sense. Pulling them off the market to stuff inside the ETF I can understand, but melting them - no. The only way this would make sense is if the bylaws of the ETF state that it can only hold bars of the metal (Credit Suisse or JM for example).
I think "converted to non-numismatic use" is probably what is meant when most people say "melt". When a collector coin is sold to a non-collector who is buying bullion and doesn't care about condition (say, a juicy fingerprint planted square on lady liberty), it is effectively converted to non-numismatic use. Once a coin is taken out of the 69-70 grading range, it essentially loses almost all, if not all, numismatic value over bullion -- a situation I expect will exist for the foreseeable future. When platinum rose to $2300+ an ounce, the numismatic value of all but the lowest mintage platinum coins was subsumed by the metal value, so even a coin like a MS69 2006 w $100 APE effectively had zero premium to melt.
Some who sold these coins to non-collectors for bullion value at the time reported handling them in such a manner as to remove them from the collector market. Whether the coins were ultimately melted or not is less important than the shrinking population of 69-70 graded coins.
Some modern detractors suggest that because virtually all moderns are 69-70s, they aren't really coins. However, other circulating coins exhibit similar price behavior; the only difference being that, for circulating coins, the grade threshold where numismatic premium begins is lower. This doesn't speak to inherent collectibility of an issue, though, it only suggests where the supply and demand curves meet.
$7,600 for a sealed 4 coin buffalo proof set...............No too shabby
That's great, as long as the guy who bought it doesn't open it and then return claiming "open capsule." Because I've had that happen with a sealed box sale, and paypal sided with the buyer.
I used to be happy to sell a sealed box on ebay, but never again.
As I recall, a bunch of my Buff capsules were also loose in the box, but the larger issue is with ebay in general. If you are a seller of high value coins, ebay offers virtually no protection from unscrupulous buyers these days. Am I mistaken?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Could you cover yourself if you say in the description that "unopened boxes fromt he mint often have loose capsules and or coins and buyer agrees to accept the coins in this condition if it occurs" or something like that?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Could you cover yourself if you say in the description that "unopened boxes fromt he mint often have loose capsules and or coins and buyer agrees to accept the coins in this condition if it occurs" or something like that?
In my experience attempted disclaimers don't matter to paypal. You are at the mercy of the buyer. Ebay and paypal have turned caveat emptor on its head. Sellers beware.
First off I'd like to say that even though I do not post as much as I'd like to on this thread, I would like to thank ericj96 for creating it and I look forward to purchasing one of his books when it comes available. I have learned so much here from all of the knowledgeable people that frequent this thread. I was wondering if anyone had any opinion as of late about the '09 proof platinum coin that came out less than a couple of months ago. Is it a hit or a miss, especially with the spot price of platinum getting closer to the issue price. Also, does anyone have a link to what the August offering will look like? I look forward to all your opinions, Thanks, Tony.
Beer is Proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy -Benjamin Franklin-
The 2009 proof one-ounce Platinum Eagle will probably keep a decent premium because it is the only one available dated 2009.
However, with numerous lower-mintage platinum eagles available, I wouldn't expect it to be an outstanding percentage gainer unless the price of platinum goes to the moon.
<< <i>As I recall, a bunch of my Buff capsules were also loose in the box, but the larger issue is with ebay in general. If you are a seller of high value coins, ebay offers virtually no protection from unscrupulous buyers these days. Am I mistaken? >>
I understand that the majority of people on Ebay are honest, but selling anything high end or more than you can afford to lose on Ebay is a roll of the dice. If you happen to run into a crook on Ebay who states to the police and Ebay that the box he signed for was empty or did not contain what it was supposed to contain, you can lose everything. I have sold AGEs at the local B&M for less than I would have received on Ebay just for the peace of mind (and all cash in hand ). Some people have stated they will not sell anything high end on Ebay unless the seller has a 100% rating and some history of buying coins with more than 25 feedbacks.
<< <i>As I recall, a bunch of my Buff capsules were also loose in the box, but the larger issue is with ebay in general. If you are a seller of high value coins, ebay offers virtually no protection from unscrupulous buyers these days. Am I mistaken? >>
I understand that the majority of people on Ebay are honest, but selling anything high end or more than you can afford to lose on Ebay is a roll of the dice. If you happen to run into a crook on Ebay who states to the police and Ebay that the box he signed for was empty or did not contain what it was supposed to contain, you can lose everything. I have sold AGEs at the local B&M for less than I would have received on Ebay just for the peace of mind (and all cash in hand ). Some people have stated they will not sell anything high end on Ebay unless the seller has a 100% rating and some history of buying coins with more than 25 feedbacks. >>
As to the loose capsule issue, I had several quarter and half buff proofs with loose capsules and some with the coins totally out of the capsule.
Before selling high-dollar sealed coins on ebay, I have an X-ray tech friend X-ray the box. This will not diagnose a loose capsule, but it will confirm the presence of the coins and loose coins.
If you know any X-ray tecs, Radiologists or Sheriff Deputies who work courtrooms with X-ray scanners this is something to consider.
Of course, they could loosen when shipped to the buyer, but at least they made it to me O.K. and I've had no complaints from buyers.
Certainly this offers absolutely no protection from crooks who claim an empty box, etc. which is a very possible and sobering scenario.
Ebay seems to ALWAYS side with the buyer, no matter how poor a buyer and how good the record of he seller. Indeed...seller beware.
I agree with nycounsel on the sealed box sale - not a good idea.
As for the 09-W Proof Plat - I am not a fan, it is struck in far too great a quantity, it is only bringing higher prices because of the quick sellout (IMO PM IRA money), subsequent "slow at the draw" buyers being shut out and relatively few graded and fs coins available.
As for the 08-w PLAT burnished coins, these are a steal at current prices. Three out of 4 are lowest mintage (under 3K) for the series.
I know some folks that sold probably on the order of 100+ pieces combined (mostly 1/4's) to big bullion dealers (introduction into the bullion circle) for small profits earlier last year?
Now let's guess how many of those will grade the hated 69? Answer = None anymore.
So, not only is it very very limited in mintage, it is even less available because of "introduction into bullion circles".........
The person that bought the first strike buffalo set could have bought 7 buffalo sets and a prosperity set just over a year ago for the same amount of money. I still think the 69 and raw coin prices are a very good value, but 15k is getting a little high even for me.
<< <i>that plat set is much more rare than that dcam buff set.....
which would you rather have? >>
Your assumption is correct, however, as mentioned in previous posts... "who the heck collects plats?" The handful that do, will not make that much of a difference. I'd stick with the buff set.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
2008 W Proof/MS Buffalo coins meteor price escalations... IMHO these very low mintage, very desirable designed coins were probably a once-in-a-lifetime numismatic event. How could even the coin mavens predict their current or future values ? I am aware that the USM could duplicate similar low mintage collector coins in a later year but currently the Mint cannot event produce collector Eagles ! Comments...
I'd rather be sitting on a pile of buffalo gold; it's clearly performed better than the platinum. If I was purchasing one or the other today, I think the platinums are probably a safer choice... arguably less downside risk since they haven't shot up nearly as much and to the extent they've increased in value, much of it can be attributed to platinum bouncing back from $800-900 in late 2008 to $1500-1600 today.
Long run, my personal preference remains with the platinum, which has little downside on the fundamentals (being more scarce by multiples, higher bullion value and a one year type). Realistically I think the gold buffalos will remain hotter than the platinums for the foreseeable future; the collector base at this point is much more established and the platinums face an uphill battle competing with such a solid demand curve.
The gold buffalo demand is a little hard to pinpoint-- there are a number of gold moderns with much lower mintages, and (although the 1 ounce continues) they are closer to a one-off than they key to a series, but there can be little doubt that part of the appeal is crossover from buffalo nickel collectors (and a number of other collectors) who love the design. I can't argue with that.
In November 2008, when many of us went on a spending spree, it was clear that the platinums were a winner, and there was virtually no downside to backing up the truck. At the same time, there was less known about how many buffalos were struck, and the news that fractional program was being discontinued was several weeks away. Now we can look back and see that the platinum folks were right-- it was a safe call-- and coins purchased during the platinum rush of late 2008 have done well; just not as well as the folks profiting from the buffalo stampede.
Adding to what nycounsel just said, the Gold Buff demand wasn't as obvious a year ago as it is now. From a demand point of view, this could also portend positive things for the Liberty "Spouses", as they are also "re-issued" classic designs, in gold.
Long run, my personal preference remains with the platinum, which has little downside on the fundamentals (being more scarce by multiples, higher bullion value
Agreed. Add mining costs and relative scarcity to the mix as well.
I will also point out that the 2008-W Burnished Plats have now taken off and are advancing strongly.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I definitely agree with jmski52 . The low mintage gold spouse coins are really interesting. It seems like all of us recognize the potential of gold coins with mintages under 5,000, but there doesn't seem to be any speculative feeding frenzy. Maybe it's post '08-09 collector/speculator fatigue, or the immense burden of taking on the First Spouse series, or the problem of picking a key in an ongoing, unpopular and expensive series. At some point, though, it's hard to ignore that some of these coins will almost certainly prove winners when the dust settles and we get our legs back.
I also agree with 2manycoins2fewfunds. I can't imagine that the prices we've seen recently (for instance, with FS buffalo gold sets selling for $15k+) can continue at the breakneck pace. I suppose there might still be room for profit, but the rate of return will slow.
Comments
<< <i>Looks like a $5 gold buffalo proof FS PCGS PF70 just sold for $3177 on Ebay.
That's for the little $5 coin, LOL.
A Proof Buffalo PCGS PR70 FS 4 coin set went for $13,100.
Ebay linky
That is an amazing price, I am speechless for the first time.
Congrats to everyone that bought and held on to these buffalo coins.
Yes, Congrats! Particularly those that may have FS Buffalos!
I avoid underestimating the power of these VERY popular and VERY sought after Buff Fractionals. For those measuring the potential, what set or individual Mint coin would
you use as a measuring stick? It's difficult to compare these with the Plat Sets, other Gold Sets, other World Mint Sets, etc..
The prices, although obscenely high, are indicative of a desire to own a VERY unique piece of Gold. We all know they will fluctuate. We have seen that happpen.
Right now; though, the fluctuations are in one direction.
Miles
Moderation in all things guys.
Eric
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130354841885&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
and over$1700 for the 1/4oz
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130354854947&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
WOW!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140370179855
I pulled up this email from one of my favorite dealers from 7/28/08. I remember thinking "nah, I'll wait, they'll sell tons of these, no point in paying so much for the FS label"... :-(
On the other hand, I am most grateful that I bought a bunch of them from the Mint in Nov. and kept most of them, just not PCGS FS. Oh well.
Anyway, thought you all might enjoy the email from July...
2008w Buffalos are here!!! I can now solidify and confirm the 69 pricing and PCGS 70 pricing (NGC 70 pricing available upon request). Here are the pricing for the sets and singles:
New 2008-W Buffalos…
2008-W 4 Piece Set Proof Buffalo PCGS PR69 DCAM First Strike – $2275
2008-W $50 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR69 DCAM First Strike – $1225
2008-W $25 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR69 DCAM First Strike - $640
2008-W $10 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR69 DCAM First Strike - $340
2008-W $5 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR69 DCAM First Strike - $175
2008-W 4 Piece Set Proof Buffalo PCGS PR70 DCAM First Strike – $3450
2008-W $50 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR70 DCAM First Strike – $1875
2008-W $25 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR70 DCAM First Strike - $950
2008-W $10 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR70 DCAM First Strike - $550
2008-W $5 Proof Buffalo PCGS PR70 DCAM First Strike - $325
2008-W 4 Piece Set Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS69 First Strike - $1995
2008-W $50 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS69 First Strike - $1075
2008-W $25 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS69 First Strike - $550
2008-W $10 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS69 First Strike - $299
2008-W $5 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS69 First Strike - $150
2008-W 4 Piece Set Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS70 First Strike - $3050
2008-W $50 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS70 First Strike - $1700
2008-W $25 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS70 First Strike - $875
2008-W $10 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS70 First Strike - $475
2008-W $5 Burnished Uncirculated Buffalo PCGS MS70 First Strike - $295
I also join in the surprise with how fast and how far the buffalos have run. As Eric points out, there is potential vulnerability if the Mint decided to revive the fractionals (which I doubt will happen). Only time will tell if it's a buffalo bubble; current prices could easily be justified by the larger gold collector base and the love of the buffalo design. The 2009 UHR gold sales figures suggest a significant base exists for modern gold coins with classic designs.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aq9BkVUjk6W8&pos=4
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
First to meet industrial/jewelry demand where 90% of platinum goes.
As far as the ETFs it would depend on how the ETF was set up.............
I'm sure in prospectus it clearly states in what form platinum is held.
Most likely in 10-100 oz assayed bars.
It would be very inefficient to have a large number of coins from various countries in various denominations.
Also these coins could be counterfiet.............certainly not assayed.
From a numismatic standpoint I think we will see continued melting/scrapage of raw and lower graded platinum coins skewing surviving populations toward MS/PR70s.
If the price of platinum goes high enough, I would expect this chain of events to repeat itself.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>The recently launched (in USA) platinum Exchange Traded Fund already has nearly 2 million shares, or 200K ounces. This additional investor demand, if it continues, could drive platinum prices higher and encourage further melting of platinum eagles. >>
I would like to understand this more. What economic forces drive an individual to melt a coin when they could just trade the coin outright?
OOps, Should have read further before posting. Never mind. Although, other than the IRA or ETF storage requirements I would think that industrial demand would be the largest factor, not spot price.
<< <i>I would like to understand this more. What economic forces drive an individual to melt a coin when they could just trade the coin outright? >>
One possible scenario: Price of platinum rises. A collector sells or trades a platinum coin to local coin dealer for bullion-related price. The dealer, if unable to resell the platinum coin to a collector, sends it to a company that buys coins for melting. Coin gets melted and becomes part of a platinum bar. Bar then gets sold to investor or industrial user.
>> I would think that industrial demand would be the largest factor, not spot price. <<
The level of industrial demand is a big factor in determining the spot price.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>
<< <i>I would like to understand this more. What economic forces drive an individual to melt a coin when they could just trade the coin outright? >>
One possible scenario: Price of platinum rises. A collector sells or trades a platinum coin to local coin dealer for bullion-related price. The dealer, if unable to resell the platinum coin to a collector, sends it to a company that buys coins for melting. Coin gets melted and becomes part of a platinum bar. Bar then gets sold to investor or industrial user.
>> I would think that industrial demand would be the largest factor, not spot price. <<
The level of industrial demand is a big factor in determining the spot price. >>
True, but speculation or hoarding can also cause price increases. Too bad there isn't a law requiring smelters to report coins melted by date. That would be nice but I don't think it would ever be done though.
I think "converted to non-numismatic use" is probably what is meant when most people say "melt". When a collector coin is sold to a non-collector who is buying bullion and doesn't care about condition (say, a juicy fingerprint planted square on lady liberty), it is effectively converted to non-numismatic use. Once a coin is taken out of the 69-70 grading range, it essentially loses almost all, if not all, numismatic value over bullion -- a situation I expect will exist for the foreseeable future. When platinum rose to $2300+ an ounce, the numismatic value of all but the lowest mintage platinum coins was subsumed by the metal value, so even a coin like a MS69 2006 w $100 APE effectively had zero premium to melt.
Some who sold these coins to non-collectors for bullion value at the time reported handling them in such a manner as to remove them from the collector market. Whether the coins were ultimately melted or not is less important than the shrinking population of 69-70 graded coins.
Some modern detractors suggest that because virtually all moderns are 69-70s, they aren't really coins. However, other circulating coins exhibit similar price behavior; the only difference being that, for circulating coins, the grade threshold where numismatic premium begins is lower. This doesn't speak to inherent collectibility of an issue, though, it only suggests where the supply and demand curves meet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270517567599&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
That's great, as long as the guy who bought it doesn't open it and then return claiming "open capsule." Because I've had that happen with a sealed box sale, and paypal sided with the buyer.
I used to be happy to sell a sealed box on ebay, but never again.
I knew it would happen.
I recieved >100 buffalo sets and singles and found at least one loose capsule in every other set and loose coins in at least 10% of boxes.
This % of loose capsules and loose coins would likely only increase with another round of mailings.
I knew it would happen.
In my experience attempted disclaimers don't matter to paypal. You are at the mercy of the buyer. Ebay and paypal have turned caveat emptor on its head. Sellers beware.
However, with numerous lower-mintage platinum eagles available, I wouldn't expect it to be an outstanding percentage gainer unless the price of platinum goes to the moon.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>As I recall, a bunch of my Buff capsules were also loose in the box, but the larger issue is with ebay in general. If you are a seller of high value coins, ebay offers virtually no protection from unscrupulous buyers these days. Am I mistaken? >>
<< <i>
<< <i>As I recall, a bunch of my Buff capsules were also loose in the box, but the larger issue is with ebay in general. If you are a seller of high value coins, ebay offers virtually no protection from unscrupulous buyers these days. Am I mistaken? >>
As to the loose capsule issue, I had several quarter and half buff proofs with loose capsules and some with the coins totally out of the capsule.
Before selling high-dollar sealed coins on ebay, I have an X-ray tech friend X-ray the box. This will not diagnose a loose capsule, but it will confirm the presence of the coins and loose coins.
If you know any X-ray tecs, Radiologists or Sheriff Deputies who work courtrooms with X-ray scanners this is something to consider.
Of course, they could loosen when shipped to the buyer, but at least they made it to me O.K. and I've had no complaints from buyers.
Certainly this offers absolutely no protection from crooks who claim an empty box, etc. which is a very possible and sobering scenario.
Ebay seems to ALWAYS side with the buyer, no matter how poor a buyer and how good the record of he seller. Indeed...seller beware.
As for the 09-W Proof Plat - I am not a fan, it is struck in far too great a quantity, it is only bringing higher prices because of the quick sellout (IMO PM IRA money), subsequent "slow at the draw" buyers being shut out and relatively few graded and fs coins available.
I know some folks that sold probably on the order of 100+ pieces combined (mostly 1/4's) to big bullion dealers (introduction into the bullion circle) for small profits earlier last year?
Now let's guess how many of those will grade the hated 69? Answer = None anymore.
So, not only is it very very limited in mintage, it is even less available because of "introduction into bullion circles".........
More Buffalo Madness
Miles
Platinum Rising
Miles
<< <i>2008 was a very good year....
Platinum Rising
Miles >>
Both of these are amazing. The buffs are more surprising with their higher mintages, but I'm glad to see the plats starting to pick up a bit, too.
which would you rather have?
<< <i>that plat set is much more rare than that dcam buff set.....
which would you rather have? >>
Your assumption is correct, however, as mentioned in previous posts... "who the heck collects plats?" The handful that do, will not make that much of a difference. I'd stick with the buff set.
I'd rather be sitting on a pile of buffalo gold; it's clearly performed better than the platinum. If I was purchasing one or the other today, I think the platinums are probably a safer choice... arguably less downside risk since they haven't shot up nearly as much and to the extent they've increased in value, much of it can be attributed to platinum bouncing back from $800-900 in late 2008 to $1500-1600 today.
Long run, my personal preference remains with the platinum, which has little downside on the fundamentals (being more scarce by multiples, higher bullion value and a one year type). Realistically I think the gold buffalos will remain hotter than the platinums for the foreseeable future; the collector base at this point is much more established and the platinums face an uphill battle competing with such a solid demand curve.
The gold buffalo demand is a little hard to pinpoint-- there are a number of gold moderns with much lower mintages, and (although the 1 ounce continues) they are closer to a one-off than they key to a series, but there can be little doubt that part of the appeal is crossover from buffalo nickel collectors (and a number of other collectors) who love the design. I can't argue with that.
In November 2008, when many of us went on a spending spree, it was clear that the platinums were a winner, and there was virtually no downside to backing up the truck. At the same time, there was less known about how many buffalos were struck, and the news that fractional program was being discontinued was several weeks away. Now we can look back and see that the platinum folks were right-- it was a safe call-- and coins purchased during the platinum rush of late 2008 have done well; just not as well as the folks profiting from the buffalo stampede.
Long run, my personal preference remains with the platinum, which has little downside on the fundamentals (being more scarce by multiples, higher bullion value
Agreed. Add mining costs and relative scarcity to the mix as well.
I will also point out that the 2008-W Burnished Plats have now taken off and are advancing strongly.
I knew it would happen.
If you bought any 2008-W platinum or gold buffalos you have done well.
To argue which is the bigger winner short or long term is of limited value.
It is unlikely the rate of return over next 1-5 years will equal the 100-200%+ return we already have seen in 15 months..............
I also agree with 2manycoins2fewfunds. I can't imagine that the prices we've seen recently (for instance, with FS buffalo gold sets selling for $15k+) can continue at the breakneck pace. I suppose there might still be room for profit, but the rate of return will slow.
APPEAL. Eye appeal. Intrinsic appeal. Artistic appeal.
While the Buff design is stunning,; the Spouse is bland, boring, with typically VERY unappealing reverses, regardless of mintage.
Collecting need not be complicated. Appeal need not be complex.
I bought Spouses and Buffalos. One excited me and the other didn't. One continues to excite/interest me along with many other collectors!
Miles