The proofs enjoyed substantial sales in the initial years, declining sales during the 1999 to 2004 years. The 2004 offering period was cut short because of a change in marketing, which resulted in lower than expected/achievable direct sales and a spike in secondary market demand shortly after. 2004s had largely slipped under the radar of potential flippers, so not many hoards existed.
The declines in sales during 2003 and 2004 was mainly due to hefty price increases. The 2004 offering period wasn't cut all that short - they stopped offering them because nobody was buying them. I ordered mine on 2-24-05, and I think that they stopped sales in March or April. Part of the reason that the 2004s slipped under the radar was also because there was virtually *NO* information on how many were being sold. I tried several times to find out how sales were going, with no success.
It's anybody's guess whether the "W" Unc Plats will take off. My thought is that they will eventually. The "W" Unc AGEs seem to be generating healthy premiums, even without the advantage of a changing reverse. The "W" Unc Plat mintages are as low as any Modern mintages will ever get and they now comprise a discreet short set that is within reach, for the time being.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
That's what I said in my earlier post, they are skipping the w coins when they can.
So I am glad you agree with me finally. Now if you just change the w unc gold to w unc plats it could be the same outcome. The question is if the changing reverse is enough to alter the collectors and I don't think it is yet.
As to what people purchase for a type set, the smarter ones I think try to buy the lowest mintage coin they can afford in the best possible condition. So even the type collectors can help the low mintage coins.
Halfstrike, I wasn't agreeing with you. I don't think it's accurate to say people are "skipping the w coins when they can." Collectors simply choose what to purchase at a given time based on preference. The size of the base interested in Buffalo golds is simply larger than (and distinct from) the market for platinums. I doubt that most Buffalo gold purchasers weigh the pros and cons of a platinum purchase in making a decision to purchase Buffalo golds, any more than they "skip" any other coin that they could purchase with the same funds. They simply buy what they are interested in at the moment.
I also have a different opinion than you on whether the changing reverse is "enough to alter the collectors." A different reverse on a coin makes it it's own type coin. Wheat cents are different from Memorial cents based on a different reverse, as are the 4 new cent designs introduced this year. Bicentennial coins are distinct from their regular issue counterparts based on a different reverse. By definition, a different design is a different type. I don't think the changing reverse platinums are in the same category as the non-w bullion (eagle/sun reverse) platinum coins, and I would disagree with anyone inclined to argue they are the same type. I think secondary market price supports my opinion on this -- the low mintage w uncirculated platinums show a pretty substantial premium over issue price/melt, while the non-w uncirculated coins do not.
The declines in sales during 2003 and 2004 was mainly due to hefty price increases. The 2004 offering period wasn't cut all that short - they stopped offering them because nobody was buying them. I ordered mine on 2-24-05, and I think that they stopped sales in March or April. Part of the reason that the 2004s slipped under the radar was also because there was virtually *NO* information on how many were being sold. I tried several times to find out how sales were going, with no success.
It's anybody's guess whether the "W" Unc Plats will take off. My thought is that they will eventually. The "W" Unc AGEs seem to be generating healthy premiums, even without the advantage of a changing reverse. The "W" Unc Plat mintages are as low as any Modern mintages will ever get and they now comprise a discreet short set that is within reach, for the time being.
jmski52, prior to 2004, I think the offering period for platinum proofs was usually open through August (it's been awhile, so I could be wrong on that). The sales numbers were being published in Numismatic News for the 2004s -- Eric and I were following that, but I don't know that it was widely tracked at that time.
<< <i> I think secondary market price supports my opinion on this -- the low mintage w uncirculated platinums show a pretty substantial premium over issue price/melt, while the non-w uncirculated coins do not. >>
nyc here are the first few prices from the price guide for the $10 bullion plats.
All of those MS 70 prices are higher than for the MS 70 w 2006 to 2008 coins so the secondary market does not support your opinion on this apparently. Yes these are conditional rarities however people are paying high prices for the bullion plats if the numbers graded are low enough!
Since some of you are talking about the 2008 W Gold Buffalo's I have a question. Is there any difference between the $25 Unc Buffalo's in the 4 coin set compared to the $25 Buffalo's in the Double Prosperity Set. And if they are the same coin then what is the approx. Mintage of the $25 Unc Buffalo ?
<< <i>Since some of you are talking about the 2008 W Gold Buffalo's I have a question. Is there any difference between the $25 Unc Buffalo's in the 4 coin set compared to the $25 Buffalo's in the Double Prosperity Set. And if they are the same coin then what is the approx. Mintage of the $25 Unc Buffalo ? >>
Yes, they are exactly the same coin, as I understand it. I think that somewhere earlier in this thread is a nice chart that shows the exact numbers--something like 17,000. They have the highest mintage of any of the unc 2008 buffs, but are still doing pretty well on the secondary market, which just shows the strength of this issue.
Edited: actually, it looks like the mintage is north of 20,000. 9600 were sold individually and in 4-coin sets, so add that to the Double Prosperity Set and that's your answer.
prior to 2004, I think the offering period for platinum proofs was usually open through August (it's been awhile, so I could be wrong on that). The sales numbers were being published in Numismatic News for the 2004s
nyc, wow - now that you mention it, I do recall that the Proofs did seem to stick around forever, so August may be right. I wasn't getting NN back then, but now I wish that I had. I ordered my sets of 2004 Proofs totally in the dark.
They have the highest mintage of any of the unc 2008 buffs, but are still doing pretty well on the secondary market, which just shows the strength of this issue.
Edited: actually, it looks like the mintage is north of 20,000. 9600 were sold individually and in 4-coin sets, so add that to the Double Prosperity Set and that's your answer.
Gritsman, I might be WAY off base, but here's what I thought the last Buff numbers were:
Uncs: 1/10 oz. - 21,864 1/4 oz. - 26,797 1/2 oz. - 44,252 1 oz. - 21,374
Proofs: 1/10 oz. - 24,725 1/4 oz. - 22,060 1/2 oz. - 20,602 1 oz. - 20,580
If I'm wrong on this, can someone please straighten me out?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< I think secondary market price supports my opinion on this -- the low mintage w uncirculated platinums show a pretty substantial premium over issue price/melt, while the non-w uncirculated coins do not. >>
nyc here are the first few prices from the price guide for the $10 bullion plats.
All of those MS 70 prices are higher than for the MS 70 w 2006 to 2008 coins so the secondary market does not support your opinion on this apparently. Yes these are conditional rarities however people are paying high prices for the bullion plats if the numbers graded are low enough!
I note that even according to this price guide there is NO difference in price at MS69 for any of the listed bullion platinums. None.
That isn't the case with the w uncirculated platinums or proof platinum coins, where premiums exist even for "common" MS69/PF69 coins.
I generally don't trust price guides -- anyone can print a number on a list.
Granted, I don't follow bullion coin sales, but I have not seen any $10 bullion coins sell for $5,000+ as this price list suggests. I can get real-time market prices by looking at what real buyers actually pay searching sources like ebay and teletrade, and those clearly indicate that 2006(w) and 2008(w) platinums trade at premiums above melt regardless of grade.
the w gold eagle unc are also gold and have not done as well. From posts I have read, especially from newbie collectors, they seem to purchase on price as opposed the mintmark. So they can skip the w coins which holds down demand [collecting one coin for each year only].
The lower mintage "W" AGEs such as the 2006-W 1/4 oz. (+71%) and 1/2 oz. (+87%) coins, and the 2008-W 1/4 oz. (+49%) and 1 oz. (+11%) coins have solid premiums over the issue prices that are still increasing. If you calculate the premiums on the basis of the melt price of gold, the premiums are higher yet. Even the 2007-W coins have a premium now, and those in particular could be real sleepers.
The Gold Buffs just happen to be hot, due to the ever-popular design. Since the fractionals were a one-year issue, I can't see interest in them ever declining.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Okay, I dug out my old NNs and as of March 31st, it shows sales are final for the unc and proof buffs NOT counting the Double Prosperity set. Here are the #s:
Proof 1 oz 19,591 1/2 12,569 1/4 13,903 1/10 19,294
Unc 1 oz 9,427 1/2 9,600 1/4 10,420 1/10 18,847
The above numbers INCLUDE the four-coin sets. I think I recycled my last number for the Prosperity sets, but as of 2/17/09, it was at 6,450 and I think it went up over 10,000, making the 1/2-oz unc W the only buff over 20,000 mintage. If anyone has different numbers than these, I'd like to hear them, but these numbers stayed solid for a couple of months according to NN.
Looking over these again, I gotta add it looks like the 1/4 proof and unc, and the 1/2-ounce proof are going to be the big winners, but really an argument can be made for every single one of these coins! How many 1-ounce collectors are out there? How many 1/10-ounce coins have already been turned into jewelry? It could be that the 1/2-ounce unc will be the workhorse type coin of the year because of its relatively high mintage. I've been surprised to see it consistently hitting $8-900 in any state. Thoughts?
>>Looking over these again, I gotta add it looks like the 1/4 proof and unc, and the 1/2-ounce proof are going to be the big winners, but really an argument can be made for every single one of these coins! How many 1-ounce collectors are out there? How many 1/10-ounce coins have already been turned into jewelry? It could be that the 1/2-ounce unc will be the workhorse type coin of the year because of its relatively high mintage. I've been surprised to see it consistently hitting $8-900 in any state. Thoughts?<<
I like the 1/4 ounce uncirculated because it's most similar in size and looks to the buffalo nickel.
Re the 2008-W sales numbers, just how final are they? Last I heard, there was still a possibility of a downward revision for the burnished plats. Would this also be the case for the proof plats, buffalos and gold and silver eagles?
Granted, I don't follow bullion coin sales, but I have not seen any $10 bullion coins sell for $5,000+ as this price list suggests. I can get real-time market prices by looking at what real buyers actually pay searching sources like ebay and teletrade, and those clearly indicate that 2006(w) and 2008(w) platinums trade at premiums above melt regardless of grade. >>
These are the little 1/10 ounce coins per teletrade. These are the last auctions for these years as the bullion don't come up very often. But they do seem to show that the price guide is closer than you think.
2284:1991 Nov 8, 2006
1997 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade This is a low mintage coin Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. PCGS has certified a mere three coins at this lofty level. There were 70, 250 coins minted for this date. A coin destitined for the finest collection of high grade platinum bullion. Price realized $7000
2354:2579 Apr 16, 2007
2001 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $3500
2372:2897 May 27, 2007
2001 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS 70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $4500
Compare that to:
2711:2903 Jun 28, 2009
2006W Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade Superb Gem. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $360
2711:2905 Jun 28, 2009
2007W Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade Superb Gem. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $220
2702:2747 Jun 7, 2009
2008W Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $280
So you see some of those bullion plats have sold for far more than the w unc plats in the same grade.
<< <i>The Gold Buffs just happen to be hot, due to the ever-popular design. Since the fractionals were a one-year issue, I can't see interest in them ever declining. >>
Interest may not decline, but prices might if the Mint decides to resurrect the Buffs in the future? Although, if that happens there probably won't be lower sales than 2008...unless gold is $2K an ounce...
These are the little 1/10 ounce coins per teletrade. These are the last auctions for these years as the bullion don't come up very often. But they do seem to show that the price guide is closer than you think.
2284:1991 Nov 8, 2006
1997 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade This is a low mintage coin Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. PCGS has certified a mere three coins at this lofty level. There were 70, 250 coins minted for this date. A coin destitined for the finest collection of high grade platinum bullion. Price realized $7000
***
So you see some of those bullion plats have sold for far more than the w unc plats in the same grade.
That's helpful info. I certainly am not trying to disparage those who collect the non-changing reverse platinum bullion coins; everyone should collect what they like. If the non-changing reverse coins take off, that's great. Still, off-the-chart results for (what I assume are) a few ultra-low pop condition specimens have to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't necessarily represent a large collector base-- my guess is that these prices reflect a small base with deep pockets vying for a perfect set. I also guess that if the non-w bullion coins started grading the same as the w uncirculated plats (probably 30+% MS70), those prices would drop dramatically. I think the price of MS69 coins for each series is a much better indicator of collector base.
I don't collect the non-W bullion plats myself, but do think it's a very interesting series to watch. I agree with others that this has a tiny collector base, but what makes it so intriguing is the big question mark on how many have been destroyed or even been well-stored. If these ever do gain much of a collector base, it'll make for an interesting show!
Note the same can be said for the non-w gold eagles, which I do try to collect--at least any that look like they're going to be keys. Again, though, we may not really know about what may turn into keys later on because of "meltage".
<< <i> If the non-changing reverse coins take off, that's great. Still, off-the-chart results for (what I assume are) a few ultra-low pop condition specimens have to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't necessarily represent a large collector base-- my guess is that these prices reflect a small base with deep pockets vying for a perfect set. >>
nyc you brought up the state quarters and how that series has a changing reverse year within the regular reverse years. The same could be said for the bullion plats.
It's obvious the changing reverses don't turn the platinum coins into titanium.
So I also don't think it separates the coins into different series, one with a regular reverse and one with a changing reverse.
The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series, I think that is how they will be looked at many years from now. They are stuck in with them in the price guide already, sold online along with them, so I think they are part of the same series.
Like I said people can skip the w coins if they want, I am not saying that is the wise thing to do. Only there has to be an explanation for all of this.
<< <i> The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series >>
I don't agree at all ...
>>
Me either. I think the unc-w plats will either be taken as their own series or be considered part of a larger "all plat" collection that includes bullion, unc-ws, and proofs. What I think is most likely, however, is that these coins will struggle to find an identity and a collector base. As I've said before, a three-year series without popular designs is a hard one to get really excited about except for its low mintages. Personally, I consider them more allied to the proofs than to the bullion coins.
Unfortunately, I also don't think much is going to happen with any of the plats until:
a) platinum returns to $2300/oz or b) people resign themselves to the fact that platinum is never going to get that high again
I just can't believe how dead these things are right now!
nyc you brought up the state quarters and how that series has a changing reverse year within the regular reverse years. The same could be said for the bullion plats.
...I also don't think it separates the coins into different series, one with a regular reverse and one with a changing reverse.
The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series, I think that is how they will be looked at many years from now. They are stuck in with them in the price guide already, sold online along with them, so I think they are part of the same series.
Like I said people can skip the w coins if they want, I am not saying that is the wise thing to do
I think most quarter collectors probably view the 1932 to 1998 quarters as a set distinct from the state quarters. Also, unlike the state quarters, the non-w bullion plats continued to be issued during the changing reverse w uncirculated plat program. To me, that supports viewing them as distinct from the bullion series. Indeed, many collectors on this board even view coins issued in "satin finish" uncirculated mint sets as distinct from their business-strike counterparts, despite having the same design. Whether the correct terminology is different "series" or different "types", it remains that the "w" uncirculated coins are a distinct, discrete collectible subset of Mint-issued platinum coins.
I collect w-uncirculated and proof platinum coins and have absolutely no interest in collecting their non-w bullion counterparts. For now, anyway, the market seems to be on my side on this one -- as I've pointed out, 2006w and 2008w uncirculated plats hold a premium to melt regardless of grade, as do platinum proofs. The same can't be said for the non-w bullion coins. I'm not knocking the non-w bullion coins in stating this fact. They are certainly collectible in the same way the uncirculated ASE and AGE coins are collectible, but whatever base exists for them is, as you've acknowledged, at this point insufficient to create numismatic value over melt for any but a few low pop MS70 coins.
You say "The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series" - an opinion that I do not share.
Your observation that "They are stuck in with them in the price guide already" only reflects the reality that platinum coins as a whole are given short shrift by the people who make the guides. The 2009 Redbook simply lists the "w" coins as "Burnished," with no mention of the different reverses. A non-collector relying only on the Redbook would think the only difference is a mintmark and the finish -- the book itself is flawed in this respect. Most collectors understand that price guides are only a general reference and are often unreliable. A wise collector would never curtail his perspective based on the limitations of a price guide, recognizing that such guides are not infallible.
You say "people can skip the w coins if they want" -- a rather empty observation, people can skip any coin if they want. Collectors typically do focus on one coin series to the exclusion of another. Based on sales over the last few years, when it comes to platinum, it seems that most collectors are skipping the non-w bullion coins. Given the length of the stagnant reverse non-w bullion series (1997 to present) and the high acquisition costs, I don't expect that many collectors will flock to the bullion plats over their proof and "w" uncirculated counterparts. Maybe in the long run-- if bullion plats have low surviving rates as I suspect they may -- that could change.
nyc you have so many conflicts in your post, let me start with this one-
1...I think most quarter collectors probably view the 1932 to 1998 quarters as a set distinct from the state quarters....
It is strange you would include the 1976 quarter in this series as it has a changing reverse. You seem to be saying what I did here, so you can include a changing reverse in a regular series when you want to.
2...Indeed, many collectors on this board even view coins issued in "satin finish" uncirculated mint sets as distinct from their business-strike counterparts, despite having the same design....
If the silver W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion silver eagle series, and the gold W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion gold eagle series, I don't see the burnished finish as any different with the platinum coins. This alone is not enough to make them separate.
3...For now, anyway, the market seems to be on my side on this one -- as I've pointed out, 2006w and 2008w uncirculated plats hold a premium to melt regardless of grade, as do platinum proofs...
The market is not quite on your side on this one, at least not in the way I see it. There are more bullion coins graded than Unc W coins graded, and all of those slabs have to have a home somewhere. If we go by your theory then coin prices alone dictate how many collectors are in a series. So the silver eagle series that has millions of coins in the market is not collected because few of the bullion coins go for higher premiums over spot prices. Now we know there are many collectors so that doesn't hold true, just as it wouldn't with the platinum bullion coins.
Probably the only thing we can draw from the coin prices is there are fewer collectors than the lowest mintage bullion coin, but not much else. To say that nobody collects them makes little sense as people do collect them.
Anyway take a look at the population report for PCGS graded coins. It is overwhelming the number of non W coins that are graded compared to W coins.
4...Based on sales over the last few years, when it comes to platinum, it seems that most collectors are skipping the non-w bullion coins. ...
Huh? Sales were higher for the bullion coins. If you mean aftermarket sales I think more bullion coins are sold. I guess you mean sales price which is higher, and that is true. But as I said that is not a reflection of the collector base, you can't prove the size of it at this point.
It shows what I have been saying, they are lumped together.
The bullion plats have four different reverses, 3 one year reverses and 1 12 year reverse. This is the way I think the coins will be viewed and perhaps valued in many years if not already. The 3 one year reverses are very low mintage compared to the combined total of the 12 1 year reverse. The coin prices reflect that and so this seems to be the way the market is valuing these coins today.
The best way to get the w unc coins to go up in value might be to have them tag along with the regular bullion but be promoted as a different reverse. Eventually I think this is how the market will sort this out, not separating the coins as you want.
nyc you have so many conflicts in your post, let me start with this one- 1...I think most quarter collectors probably view the 1932 to 1998 quarters as a set distinct from the state quarters.... It is strange you would include the 1976 quarter in this series as it has a changing reverse. You seem to be saying what I did here, so you can include a changing reverse in a regular series when you want to.
I didn't address the bicentennial quarter, but it certainly is treated (and was hoarded) as its own type coin. It also fits within the 1932-1998 series, since there was no "regular" issue reverse quarter in 1976. Conversely, the regular issue platinum bullion coins continued to be issued during the 2006 to 2008 w years.
2...Indeed, many collectors on this board even view coins issued in "satin finish" uncirculated mint sets as distinct from their business-strike counterparts, despite having the same design.... If the silver W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion silver eagle series, and the gold W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion gold eagle series, I don't see the burnished finish as any different with the platinum coins. This alone is not enough to make them separate.
I was speaking of the Mint sets. Not ASEs or AGEs. However, I tend to agree with you-- I personally don't view a burnished finish, by itself, as distinct enough to make a different type. However, most collectors seem to feel otherwise. Thus, for instance, the higher value for the special finish 1994 and 1997 nickel.
My point about finish was only to note that when as something as slight as finish creates a carve out, when you include the completely different reverse shown on the platinum w coins, there really can be little argument on the topic. Each is its own type coin, something that can't be said of the regular bullion coins.
3...For now, anyway, the market seems to be on my side on this one -- as I've pointed out, 2006w and 2008w uncirculated plats hold a premium to melt regardless of grade, as do platinum proofs... The market is not quite on your side on this one, at least not in the way I see it. There are more bullion coins graded than Unc W coins graded, and all of those slabs have to have a home somewhere. If we go by your theory then coin prices alone dictate how many collectors are in a series. So the silver eagle series that has millions of coins in the market is not collected because few of the bullion coins go for higher premiums over spot prices. Now we know there are many collectors so that doesn't hold true, just as it wouldn't with the platinum bullion coins. Probably the only thing we can draw from the coin prices is there are fewer collectors than the lowest mintage bullion coin, but not much else. To say that nobody collects them makes little sense as people do collect them.
Grading does not mean they are collected, only that they were submitted, probably by people hoping to make a MS70 grade that would appeal to the handful of collectors who care. Coin prices certainly DO demonstrate a collector base; I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. Prices go up when demand exceeds supply. There is really no numismatic premium demonstrated for the average grade bullion platinum coin. I never said, or even suggested, that "nobody collects them". I do agree with your conclusion that the prices indicate that there are fewer collectors than the lowest mintage bullion coin. That is not true for the platinum proofs or the w uncirculated coins, where prices demonstrate that demand exceeds supply, particularly with the lower mintage coins.
Anyway take a look at the population report for PCGS graded coins. It is overwhelming the number of non W coins that are graded compared to W coins.
which only proves that some people are submitting them, not that they are collected.
4...Based on sales over the last few years, when it comes to platinum, it seems that most collectors are skipping the non-w bullion coins. ... Huh? Sales were higher for the bullion coins. If you mean aftermarket sales I think more bullion coins are sold. I guess you mean sales price which is higher, and that is true. But as I said that is not a reflection of the collector base, you can't prove the size of it at this point.
Clearly I was talking about secondary market sales. Collectors paid a numismatic premium over melt for w uncirculated coins even when buying from the Mint, and they were purchased as collectibles, not as bullion. If someone only wanted the bullion, the bullion coins accomplished that purpose at a lower price. When prices for an average MS69 2006 w platinum are notably higher than melt, it's an indication that collectors are buying them and that demand exceeds supply, and that the collector base is larger than the population. We don't see this for average non-w bullion coins.
Now look at this- linky It shows what I have been saying, they are lumped together.
This is proof only that PCGS doesn't bother to differentiate the w uncirculated coins from the bullion coins in this list. At the top, it also says "circulation strikes" which is also mistaken. In a relatively new and not widely collected series like platinum, I doubt that much thought is given by the handful of individuals making these lists about the proper placement of the w uncirculated coins.
The bullion plats have four different reverses, 3 one year reverses and 1 12 year reverse. This is the way I think the coins will be viewed and perhaps valued in many years if not already.
The problem with your opinion on this is that the majority of w uncirculated platinum coin collectors seem to have no interest in the non-w coins, and people are clearly treating them as a different set.
More importantly, the U.S. Mint marketed them as a distinct set, a specific 3 year series. If the w uncirculated coins REPLACED the 2006, 2007 and 2008 years of the bullion program, I might agree with you that they could logically be considered part of the same program. Sort of like the 2009 Lincoln cents -- the new designs are their own type, but the Mint suspended the regular memorial reverse in 2009.
In 2006, the United States Mint embarked on a new, three-year series titled The Foundations of American Democracy. Each year, beginning in 2006, the reverse design has featured an image emblematic of one of the three institutional foundations of our American democracy – the Legislative, the Executive and the Judicial branches. This new series of designs was introduced in the order the branches of government appear in the U.S. Constitution.
Half, how do you support your flawed perspective when the U.S. Mint specifically describes the coins as a new three year series?
In 2006, the United States Mint embarked on a new, three-year series titled The Foundations of American Democracy. Each year, beginning in 2006, the reverse design has featured an image emblematic of one of the three institutional foundations of our American democracy – the Legislative, the Executive and the Judicial branches. This new series of designs was introduced in the order the branches of government appear in the U.S. Constitution. link
nyc if these coins had no mintmark then your theory may make more sense. They would have to be separated. But the mint made it so they could be split apart by mintmark and so that is how they are listed even though as far as I know all of the coins were struck at West Point.
Your part about the mint saying this is a new series is true as far as the reverse goes, they started out with the platnum proof coins and changed the reverse after the first year.
So let's review the proof platinum coins here so everyone is on the same page. Here are the earliest proofs.
Now look at the 1997 proof coin, what reverse is that? It looks to be the same as the non W bullion plats.
Is that 1997 proof coin considered different enough than the other plat proofs?
No.
So logic follows that the bullion plat with that same reverse is no different than the changing reverse unc W plats, they can exist in the same overall set just as they did it with the proofs.
So logic follows that the bullion plat with that same reverse is no different than the changing reverse unc W plats, they can exist in the same overall set just as they did it with the proofs.
Notice how the 1997 reverse existed only for that one year? and each subsequent year had its own reverse design?
Now look at the bullion platinums. The same reverse for each year. 1997 until present.
In 2006, 2007 and 2008, the Mint didn't suspend the stagnant reverse. It continued it. The Mint also issued a new three coin uncirculated platinum series, aimed and marketed to collectors. Platinum, yes. But it was marketed differently from the bullion coins, with distinct designs, different packaging and different pricing. It's a distinct set. The handful of platinum bullion coin collectors can ignore the 2006-2008 w coins, since they are distinct from the bullion coins. The larger group of Foundations of Liberty platinum coin collectors can ignore the bullion coins, since they are distinct from the 3 coin series. Or either group can branch into the other if they want. Most of the collectors here seem to grasp this, it's really not that confusing.
nyc you fail to address the overall situation, the old commemoratives have years of the same design, the silver w unc eagles and gold w unc eagles are part of their bullion sets. Only the plats you expect to be separated.
Even the proof plats have the reverse you think deserves to be separated.
Anyway I think some don't want the w unc to be part of the bullion as they think they will be worth more if they aren't. I am not sure this is accurate as if you have a larger population of overall coins then you probably have a larger potential collector base.
But at least there is no confusion over the buffalo gold fractionals.
nyc you fail to address the overall situation, the old commemoratives have years of the same design, the silver w unc eagles and gold w unc eagles are part of their bullion sets. Only the plats you expect to be separated.
Even the proof plats have the reverse you think deserves to be separated.
Well, the older commemoratives with years of the same designs are treated as type coins. So a relatively low mintage coin within some of those multi-year series-- say, for instance, a 1936D Daniel Boone, or a 1949 Booker T. Washington, really don't command a much of a premium compared to a more common single year issue commemorative type coin from the classic commemorative halves. And, of course, the bullion platinums are not commemoratives. Their design doesn't commemorate anything, and as a 12+ year series, they're a much larger set than any of the classic commemorative multi-year series.
Unlike the bullion platinums, the reverse of the 2006-2008 w uncirculateds does have something of a commemorative aspect; the 3 branches of government. On top of that, as you previously acknowledged, each year is its own type.
I haven't really mentioned the w ASEs or w AGEs, but there's no design difference, just a w mintmark and a burnished finish. I don't collect them, but it seems to be enough for those who do. Meanwhile, the platinum proof and w uncirculateds are in a class of their own. The different reverses makes each year its own type coin. Those types fit within a thematic series. There were the Vistas of Liberty from 1998 to 2002 and the Foundations of Democracy from 2006 to 2008. In my opinion, this makes them far more compelling as a collectible than the 1997 to 2008+ bullion platinums, with the stagnant eagle over the sun reverse.
<< <i>Their design doesn't commemorate anything, and as a 12+ year series, they're a much larger set than any of the classic commemorative multi-year series. >>
It doesn't appear so if you go by date and mintmark. The Oregon Trail is 14 coins. Arkansas is 15 coins. Booker T. is 18 coins. Carver is 12.
Anyway we also aren't talking about what is most compelling, only how these will be categorized. I have already said what is most compelling, but the question is if these fit in with the bullion coins. The same obverse links all of bullion plats just like the same obverse links all of the proof plats.
As the commemoratives show you have multiple years of the same design and it doesn't change the way they are viewed.
The 1997 bullion reverse is the same used as on the proof plat and those are all lumped together. So the bullion seem to be as well.
HalfStrike.....what makes you say that the one-ounce Buffalo bullion will be released? This is posted on the Mint website....
"As a result of the numismatic product portfolio analysis conducted last fall, beginning in 2009, American Buffalo Gold Proof fractional coins and the four-coin set are no longer available. Additionally, the United States Mint will no longer offer American Buffalo Gold Uncirculated Coins."
Doesn't that indicate that only the proof issues will be released?
Yes, but that doesn't address the bullion coins. Here is the latest.
Contrary to earlier reports from Coin World, the US Mint will be issuing 2009 American Gold Buffalo bullion coins during 2009.had published a story in their July 6, 2009 issue stating that the offering was canceled based on information received from the US Mint. This information was not correct and the Mint has already received the 24 karat gold planchets necessary to produce the coins.
Based on current information, the US Mint will offer one ounce 2009 Gold Buffalo bullion coins and one ounce 2009 Gold Buffalo proof coins. Last year, the US Mint sold 189,500 of the one ounce bullion coins and 19,591 of the one ounce proof coins.Release dates for this year's offerings have still not been provided.
Just noticed that a Louisa Adams FS Unc raw in sealed box sold for $900 on Ebay. The seller noted that is was the lowest mintage FS to date. I'm sure that some future issues will be lower. Do you all agree?
I also noticed that the 2008 Plat Proof sets seem to have dropped. Summer Slump?
The plat coins are a slow boat to China right now, it looks like it will take time for them to mature. Eventually they should be recognized for their rarity, but it appears it isn't like with the buffaloes.
CoinWorld had a small story which suggested that the West Point mint has started to gather the raw material to create: Proof 2009-W American Eagle gold Uncirculated 2009-W American Eagle gold Fractional 2009 American Eagle gold bullion coins Proof 2009-W American Buffalo 1-ounce $50 coins 2009 American Buffalo $50 bullion coin
And they also suggested that the West Point mint does plan to make American Eagle silver collector coins, but is still waiting for more silver planchets to come in before officially announcing it.
CoinWorld had a small story which suggested that the West Point mint has started to gather the raw material to create: Proof 2009-W American Eagle gold Uncirculated 2009-W American Eagle gold Fractional 2009 American Eagle gold bullion coins Proof 2009-W American Buffalo 1-ounce $50 coins 2009 American Buffalo $50 bullion coin
And they also suggested that the West Point mint does plan to make American Eagle silver collector coins, but is still waiting for more silver planchets to come in before officially announcing it.
................................
No mention pf 2009 platinum. >>
I think that Coin World also announcec that fractional 2009 gold proof coins might be minted also. Also the limit on the gold UHRs will be increased to 10 on 7/27/2009!
Can anyone tell me what the actual mintage figures were for the 2007 and / or 2008 standard-issue $50.00 one ounce American Gold Eagles that were sold as raw bullion?
Coin World dated 8/17/09 reported sales numbers from the US Mint for the 08W ASE, APE, & AGE proofs and uncirculated. Although the numbers are subject to final audit, the sales numbers have not changed from those that we have been seeing for most of this year.
That said, it seems that the following continue to be the case: - the 2008 W APE proofs are the lowest mintage - the 06-W APE uncs are the lower mintage than the 08-W APE uncs
Here is a wild card for all of the APE collectors..........
Will there be another great melt down in 2009 or 2010.
Personally I have been surprised platinum prices have held up so well through this recession despite an almost 50% reduction in US auto production.
If we are indeed in a worldwide recovery then industrial demand for platinum may push spot prices above $1500.
Question for the group..........at what price would you turn in your more common APEs?? For me $1700 will get me looking.................$1900 I'll be selling.
I agree, sell common APEs north of $1900. Pt price should be ~2000 now. Last time gold was 1000, Pt was 2000. The auto industry is the only reason Pt has ranged 900-1200. That'll change over the next 6-18 months.
Another Question: Why haven't more 2004 APEs been on the market? When the 2008 numbers hit the Red Book, 2004 prices are going to drop hard! Are people just hoping the numbers will audit higher than 2004? Do most people not know about the 2008 numbers? What gives?
<< <i>I agree, sell common APEs north of $1900. Pt price should be ~2000 now. Last time gold was 1000, Pt was 2000. The auto industry is the only reason Pt has ranged 900-1200. That'll change over the next 6-18 months.
Another Question: Why haven't more 2004 APEs been on the market? When the 2008 numbers hit the Red Book, 2004 prices are going to drop hard! Are people just hoping the numbers will audit higher than 2004? Do most people not know about the 2008 numbers? What gives? >>
7jaguars and others have pointed out that the 2004s are probably much more widely dispersed than the 2008s. While the 2008s are probably concentrated mostly in the hands of hoarders and dealers, the 2004s are primarily in individual hands, making them a lot less available. I don't know if this is true, but it sounds reasonable. I do think the 2008 price will eventually be tops, but that that won't necessarily crash the 2004s. It all depends on how many series collectors there are. I bought my 2004 at a very high price, but am still happy to have it and won't be dumping it. It could take ten years for this series to really catch on--maybe more.
<< <i>Coin World dated 8/17/09 reported sales numbers from the US Mint for the 08W ASE, APE, & AGE proofs and uncirculated. Although the numbers are subject to final audit, the sales numbers have not changed from those that we have been seeing for most of this year.
That said, it seems that the following continue to be the case: - the 2008 W APE proofs are the lowest mintage - the 06-W APE uncs are the lower mintage than the 08-W APE uncs >>
Comments
The declines in sales during 2003 and 2004 was mainly due to hefty price increases. The 2004 offering period wasn't cut all that short - they stopped offering them because nobody was buying them. I ordered mine on 2-24-05, and I think that they stopped sales in March or April. Part of the reason that the 2004s slipped under the radar was also because there was virtually *NO* information on how many were being sold. I tried several times to find out how sales were going, with no success.
It's anybody's guess whether the "W" Unc Plats will take off. My thought is that they will eventually. The "W" Unc AGEs seem to be generating healthy premiums, even without the advantage of a changing reverse. The "W" Unc Plat mintages are as low as any Modern mintages will ever get and they now comprise a discreet short set that is within reach, for the time being.
I knew it would happen.
So I am glad you agree with me finally. Now if you just change the w unc gold to w unc plats it could be the same outcome. The question is if the changing reverse is enough to alter the collectors and I don't think it is yet.
As to what people purchase for a type set, the smarter ones I think try to buy the lowest mintage coin they can afford in the best possible condition. So even the type collectors can help the low mintage coins.
Halfstrike, I wasn't agreeing with you. I don't think it's accurate to say people are "skipping the w coins when they can." Collectors simply choose what to purchase at a given time based on preference. The size of the base interested in Buffalo golds is simply larger than (and distinct from) the market for platinums. I doubt that most Buffalo gold purchasers weigh the pros and cons of a platinum purchase in making a decision to purchase Buffalo golds, any more than they "skip" any other coin that they could purchase with the same funds. They simply buy what they are interested in at the moment.
I also have a different opinion than you on whether the changing reverse is "enough to alter the collectors." A different reverse on a coin makes it it's own type coin. Wheat cents are different from Memorial cents based on a different reverse, as are the 4 new cent designs introduced this year. Bicentennial coins are distinct from their regular issue counterparts based on a different reverse. By definition, a different design is a different type. I don't think the changing reverse platinums are in the same category as the non-w bullion (eagle/sun reverse) platinum coins, and I would disagree with anyone inclined to argue they are the same type. I think secondary market price supports my opinion on this -- the low mintage w uncirculated platinums show a pretty substantial premium over issue price/melt, while the non-w uncirculated coins do not.
It's anybody's guess whether the "W" Unc Plats will take off. My thought is that they will eventually. The "W" Unc AGEs seem to be generating healthy premiums, even without the advantage of a changing reverse. The "W" Unc Plat mintages are as low as any Modern mintages will ever get and they now comprise a discreet short set that is within reach, for the time being.
jmski52, prior to 2004, I think the offering period for platinum proofs was usually open through August (it's been awhile, so I could be wrong on that). The sales numbers were being published in Numismatic News for the 2004s -- Eric and I were following that, but I don't know that it was widely tracked at that time.
<< <i> I think secondary market price supports my opinion on this -- the low mintage w uncirculated platinums show a pretty substantial premium over issue price/melt, while the non-w uncirculated coins do not. >>
nyc here are the first few prices from the price guide for the $10 bullion plats.
Platinum Eagles, MS Desig 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
99754 1997 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 7,000
9765 1998 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 4,000
9773 1999 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 5,000
9779 2000 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 7,500
9786 2001 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 5,250
9794 2002 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 1,550
21100 2003 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 1,250
All of those MS 70 prices are higher than for the MS 70 w 2006 to 2008 coins so the secondary market does not support your opinion on this apparently. Yes these are conditional rarities however people are paying high prices for the bullion plats if the numbers graded are low enough!
<< <i>Since some of you are talking about the 2008 W Gold Buffalo's I have a question. Is there any difference between the $25 Unc Buffalo's in the 4 coin set compared to the $25 Buffalo's in the Double Prosperity Set. And if they are the same coin then what is the approx. Mintage of the $25 Unc Buffalo ? >>
Yes, they are exactly the same coin, as I understand it. I think that somewhere earlier in this thread is a nice chart that shows the exact numbers--something like 17,000. They have the highest mintage of any of the unc 2008 buffs, but are still doing pretty well on the secondary market, which just shows the strength of this issue.
Edited: actually, it looks like the mintage is north of 20,000. 9600 were sold individually and in 4-coin sets, so add that to the Double Prosperity Set and that's your answer.
nyc, wow - now that you mention it, I do recall that the Proofs did seem to stick around forever, so August may be right. I wasn't getting NN back then, but now I wish that I had. I ordered my sets of 2004 Proofs totally in the dark.
They have the highest mintage of any of the unc 2008 buffs, but are still doing pretty well on the secondary market, which just shows the strength of this issue.
Edited: actually, it looks like the mintage is north of 20,000. 9600 were sold individually and in 4-coin sets, so add that to the Double Prosperity Set and that's your answer.
Gritsman, I might be WAY off base, but here's what I thought the last Buff numbers were:
Uncs:
1/10 oz. - 21,864
1/4 oz. - 26,797
1/2 oz. - 44,252
1 oz. - 21,374
Proofs:
1/10 oz. - 24,725
1/4 oz. - 22,060
1/2 oz. - 20,602
1 oz. - 20,580
If I'm wrong on this, can someone please straighten me out?
I knew it would happen.
nyc here are the first few prices from the price guide for the $10 bullion plats.
Platinum Eagles, MS Desig 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
99754 1997 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 7,000
9765 1998 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 4,000
9773 1999 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 5,000
9779 2000 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 7,500
9786 2001 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 5,250
9794 2002 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 1,550
21100 2003 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 1,250
All of those MS 70 prices are higher than for the MS 70 w 2006 to 2008 coins so the secondary market does not support your opinion on this apparently. Yes these are conditional rarities however people are paying high prices for the bullion plats if the numbers graded are low enough!
I note that even according to this price guide there is NO difference in price at MS69 for any of the listed bullion platinums. None.
That isn't the case with the w uncirculated platinums or proof platinum coins, where premiums exist even for "common" MS69/PF69 coins.
I generally don't trust price guides -- anyone can print a number on a list.
Granted, I don't follow bullion coin sales, but I have not seen any $10 bullion coins sell for $5,000+ as this price list suggests. I can get real-time market prices by looking at what real buyers actually pay searching sources like ebay and teletrade, and those clearly indicate that 2006(w) and 2008(w) platinums trade at premiums above melt regardless of grade.
The lower mintage "W" AGEs such as the 2006-W 1/4 oz. (+71%) and 1/2 oz. (+87%) coins, and the 2008-W 1/4 oz. (+49%) and 1 oz. (+11%) coins have solid premiums over the issue prices that are still increasing. If you calculate the premiums on the basis of the melt price of gold, the premiums are higher yet. Even the 2007-W coins have a premium now, and those in particular could be real sleepers.
The Gold Buffs just happen to be hot, due to the ever-popular design. Since the fractionals were a one-year issue, I can't see interest in them ever declining.
I knew it would happen.
Proof
1 oz 19,591
1/2 12,569
1/4 13,903
1/10 19,294
Unc
1 oz 9,427
1/2 9,600
1/4 10,420
1/10 18,847
The above numbers INCLUDE the four-coin sets. I think I recycled my last number for the Prosperity sets, but as of 2/17/09, it was at 6,450 and I think it went up over 10,000, making the 1/2-oz unc W the only buff over 20,000 mintage. If anyone has different numbers than these, I'd like to hear them, but these numbers stayed solid for a couple of months according to NN.
Looking over these again, I gotta add it looks like the 1/4 proof and unc, and the 1/2-ounce proof are going to be the big winners, but really an argument can be made for every single one of these coins! How many 1-ounce collectors are out there? How many 1/10-ounce coins have already been turned into jewelry? It could be that the 1/2-ounce unc will be the workhorse type coin of the year because of its relatively high mintage. I've been surprised to see it consistently hitting $8-900 in any state. Thoughts?
Sales Numbers for 2008 AGE, APE, and ASE Coins
I like the 1/4 ounce uncirculated because it's most similar in size and looks to the buffalo nickel.
Re the 2008-W sales numbers, just how final are they? Last I heard, there was still a possibility of a downward revision for the burnished plats. Would this also be the case for the proof plats, buffalos and gold and silver eagles?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>
Platinum Eagles, MS Desig 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
99754 1997 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 7,000
9765 1998 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 4,000
9773 1999 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 5,000
9779 2000 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 7,500
9786 2001 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 5,250
9794 2002 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 1,550
21100 2003 $10 130 135 140 145 150 155 185 1,250
Granted, I don't follow bullion coin sales, but I have not seen any $10 bullion coins sell for $5,000+ as this price list suggests. I can get real-time market prices by looking at what real buyers actually pay searching sources like ebay and teletrade, and those clearly indicate that 2006(w) and 2008(w) platinums trade at premiums above melt regardless of grade. >>
These are the little 1/10 ounce coins per teletrade. These are the last auctions for these years as the bullion don't come up very often. But they do seem to show that the price guide is closer than you think.
2284:1991
Nov 8, 2006
1997 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade This is a low mintage coin
Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. PCGS has certified a mere three coins at this lofty level. There were 70, 250 coins minted for this date. A coin destitined for the finest collection of high grade platinum bullion. Price realized $7000
2354:2579
Apr 16, 2007
2001 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade
Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $3500
2372:2897
May 27, 2007
2001 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS 70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade
Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $4500
Compare that to:
2711:2903
Jun 28, 2009
2006W Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade
Superb Gem. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $360
2711:2905
Jun 28, 2009
2007W Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade
Superb Gem. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $220
2702:2747
Jun 7, 2009
2008W Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade
Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. Price realized $280
So you see some of those bullion plats have sold for far more than the w unc plats in the same grade.
<< <i>The Gold Buffs just happen to be hot, due to the ever-popular design. Since the fractionals were a one-year issue, I can't see interest in them ever declining. >>
Interest may not decline, but prices might if the Mint decides to resurrect the Buffs in the future? Although, if that happens there probably won't be lower sales than 2008...unless gold is $2K an ounce...
2284:1991
Nov 8, 2006
1997 Statue of Liberty PCGS MS70
This is a Registry Quality lot as designated by Teletrade This is a low mintage coin
Full satin-like mint luster. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. The ultimate certified grade. PCGS has certified a mere three coins at this lofty level. There were 70, 250 coins minted for this date. A coin destitined for the finest collection of high grade platinum bullion. Price realized $7000
***
So you see some of those bullion plats have sold for far more than the w unc plats in the same grade.
That's helpful info. I certainly am not trying to disparage those who collect the non-changing reverse platinum bullion coins; everyone should collect what they like. If the non-changing reverse coins take off, that's great. Still, off-the-chart results for (what I assume are) a few ultra-low pop condition specimens have to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't necessarily represent a large collector base-- my guess is that these prices reflect a small base with deep pockets vying for a perfect set. I also guess that if the non-w bullion coins started grading the same as the w uncirculated plats (probably 30+% MS70), those prices would drop dramatically. I think the price of MS69 coins for each series is a much better indicator of collector base.
Note the same can be said for the non-w gold eagles, which I do try to collect--at least any that look like they're going to be keys. Again, though, we may not really know about what may turn into keys later on because of "meltage".
<< <i> If the non-changing reverse coins take off, that's great. Still, off-the-chart results for (what I assume are) a few ultra-low pop condition specimens have to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't necessarily represent a large collector base-- my guess is that these prices reflect a small base with deep pockets vying for a perfect set. >>
nyc you brought up the state quarters and how that series has a changing reverse year within the regular reverse years. The same could be said for the bullion plats.
It's obvious the changing reverses don't turn the platinum coins into titanium.
So I also don't think it separates the coins into different series, one with a regular reverse and one with a changing reverse.
The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series, I think that is how they will be looked at many years from now. They are stuck in with them in the price guide already, sold online along with them, so I think they are part of the same series.
Like I said people can skip the w coins if they want, I am not saying that is the wise thing to do. Only there has to be an explanation for all of this.
<< <i>
<< <i> The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series >>
I don't agree at all ...
<< <i> The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series >>
I don't agree at all ...
Me either. I think the unc-w plats will either be taken as their own series or be considered part of a larger "all plat" collection that includes bullion, unc-ws, and proofs. What I think is most likely, however, is that these coins will struggle to find an identity and a collector base. As I've said before, a three-year series without popular designs is a hard one to get really excited about except for its low mintages. Personally, I consider them more allied to the proofs than to the bullion coins.
Unfortunately, I also don't think much is going to happen with any of the plats until:
a) platinum returns to $2300/oz
or
b) people resign themselves to the fact that platinum is never going to get that high again
I just can't believe how dead these things are right now!
Coin collecting is a hobby supported by people's discretionary income.
With recession, stock market crash, housing decline and rising unemployment it is surprising everything numismatic hasn't tanked 25-75%.
...I also don't think it separates the coins into different series, one with a regular reverse and one with a changing reverse.
The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series, I think that is how they will be looked at many years from now. They are stuck in with them in the price guide already, sold online along with them, so I think they are part of the same series.
Like I said people can skip the w coins if they want, I am not saying that is the wise thing to do
I think most quarter collectors probably view the 1932 to 1998 quarters as a set distinct from the state quarters. Also, unlike the state quarters, the non-w bullion plats continued to be issued during the changing reverse w uncirculated plat program. To me, that supports viewing them as distinct from the bullion series. Indeed, many collectors on this board even view coins issued in "satin finish" uncirculated mint sets as distinct from their business-strike counterparts, despite having the same design. Whether the correct terminology is different "series" or different "types", it remains that the "w" uncirculated coins are a distinct, discrete collectible subset of Mint-issued platinum coins.
I collect w-uncirculated and proof platinum coins and have absolutely no interest in collecting their non-w bullion counterparts. For now, anyway, the market seems to be on my side on this one -- as I've pointed out, 2006w and 2008w uncirculated plats hold a premium to melt regardless of grade, as do platinum proofs. The same can't be said for the non-w bullion coins. I'm not knocking the non-w bullion coins in stating this fact. They are certainly collectible in the same way the uncirculated ASE and AGE coins are collectible, but whatever base exists for them is, as you've acknowledged, at this point insufficient to create numismatic value over melt for any but a few low pop MS70 coins.
You say "The w unc plats are part of the regular plat bullion series" - an opinion that I do not share.
Your observation that "They are stuck in with them in the price guide already" only reflects the reality that platinum coins as a whole are given short shrift by the people who make the guides. The 2009 Redbook simply lists the "w" coins as "Burnished," with no mention of the different reverses. A non-collector relying only on the Redbook would think the only difference is a mintmark and the finish -- the book itself is flawed in this respect. Most collectors understand that price guides are only a general reference and are often unreliable. A wise collector would never curtail his perspective based on the limitations of a price guide, recognizing that such guides are not infallible.
You say "people can skip the w coins if they want" -- a rather empty observation, people can skip any coin if they want. Collectors typically do focus on one coin series to the exclusion of another. Based on sales over the last few years, when it comes to platinum, it seems that most collectors are skipping the non-w bullion coins. Given the length of the stagnant reverse non-w bullion series (1997 to present) and the high acquisition costs, I don't expect that many collectors will flock to the bullion plats over their proof and "w" uncirculated counterparts. Maybe in the long run-- if bullion plats have low surviving rates as I suspect they may -- that could change.
nyc you have so many conflicts in your post, let me start with this one-
1...I think most quarter collectors probably view the 1932 to 1998 quarters as a set distinct from the state quarters....
It is strange you would include the 1976 quarter in this series as it has a changing reverse. You seem to be saying what I did here, so you can include a changing reverse in a regular series when you want to.
2...Indeed, many collectors on this board even view coins issued in "satin finish" uncirculated mint sets as distinct from their business-strike counterparts, despite having the same design....
If the silver W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion silver eagle series, and the gold W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion gold eagle series, I don't see the burnished finish as any different with the platinum coins. This alone is not enough to make them separate.
3...For now, anyway, the market seems to be on my side on this one -- as I've pointed out, 2006w and 2008w uncirculated plats hold a premium to melt regardless of grade, as do platinum proofs...
The market is not quite on your side on this one, at least not in the way I see it. There are more bullion coins graded than Unc W coins graded, and all of those slabs have to have a home somewhere. If we go by your theory then coin prices alone dictate how many collectors are in a series. So the silver eagle series that has millions of coins in the market is not collected because few of the bullion coins go for higher premiums over spot prices. Now we know there are many collectors so that doesn't hold true, just as it wouldn't with the platinum bullion coins.
Probably the only thing we can draw from the coin prices is there are fewer collectors than the lowest mintage bullion coin, but not much else. To say that nobody collects them makes little sense as people do collect them.
Anyway take a look at the population report for PCGS graded coins. It is overwhelming the number of non W coins that are graded compared to W coins.
4...Based on sales over the last few years, when it comes to platinum, it seems that most collectors are skipping the non-w bullion coins. ...
Huh? Sales were higher for the bullion coins.
Now look at this-
linky
It shows what I have been saying, they are lumped together.
The bullion plats have four different reverses, 3 one year reverses and 1 12 year reverse. This is the way I think the coins will be viewed and perhaps valued in many years if not already. The 3 one year reverses are very low mintage compared to the combined total of the 12 1 year reverse. The coin prices reflect that and so this seems to be the way the market is valuing these coins today.
The best way to get the w unc coins to go up in value might be to have them tag along with the regular bullion but be promoted as a different reverse. Eventually I think this is how the market will sort this out, not separating the coins as you want.
I didn't address the bicentennial quarter, but it certainly is treated (and was hoarded) as its own type coin. It also fits within the 1932-1998 series, since there was no "regular" issue reverse quarter in 1976. Conversely, the regular issue platinum bullion coins continued to be issued during the 2006 to 2008 w years.
2...Indeed, many collectors on this board even view coins issued in "satin finish" uncirculated mint sets as distinct from their business-strike counterparts, despite having the same design.... If the silver W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion silver eagle series, and the gold W unc eagles are part of the regular bullion gold eagle series, I don't see the burnished finish as any different with the platinum coins. This alone is not enough to make them separate.
I was speaking of the Mint sets. Not ASEs or AGEs. However, I tend to agree with you-- I personally don't view a burnished finish, by itself, as distinct enough to make a different type. However, most collectors seem to feel otherwise. Thus, for instance, the higher value for the special finish 1994 and 1997 nickel.
My point about finish was only to note that when as something as slight as finish creates a carve out, when you include the completely different reverse shown on the platinum w coins, there really can be little argument on the topic. Each is its own type coin, something that can't be said of the regular bullion coins.
3...For now, anyway, the market seems to be on my side on this one -- as I've pointed out, 2006w and 2008w uncirculated plats hold a premium to melt regardless of grade, as do platinum proofs... The market is not quite on your side on this one, at least not in the way I see it. There are more bullion coins graded than Unc W coins graded, and all of those slabs have to have a home somewhere. If we go by your theory then coin prices alone dictate how many collectors are in a series. So the silver eagle series that has millions of coins in the market is not collected because few of the bullion coins go for higher premiums over spot prices. Now we know there are many collectors so that doesn't hold true, just as it wouldn't with the platinum bullion coins. Probably the only thing we can draw from the coin prices is there are fewer collectors than the lowest mintage bullion coin, but not much else. To say that nobody collects them makes little sense as people do collect them.
Grading does not mean they are collected, only that they were submitted, probably by people hoping to make a MS70 grade that would appeal to the handful of collectors who care. Coin prices certainly DO demonstrate a collector base; I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. Prices go up when demand exceeds supply. There is really no numismatic premium demonstrated for the average grade bullion platinum coin. I never said, or even suggested, that "nobody collects them". I do agree with your conclusion that the prices indicate that there are fewer collectors than the lowest mintage bullion coin. That is not true for the platinum proofs or the w uncirculated coins, where prices demonstrate that demand exceeds supply, particularly with the lower mintage coins.
Anyway take a look at the population report for PCGS graded coins. It is overwhelming the number of non W coins that are graded compared to W coins.
which only proves that some people are submitting them, not that they are collected.
4...Based on sales over the last few years, when it comes to platinum, it seems that most collectors are skipping the non-w bullion coins. ...
Huh? Sales were higher for the bullion coins. If you mean aftermarket sales I think more bullion coins are sold. I guess you mean sales price which is higher, and that is true. But as I said that is not a reflection of the collector base, you can't prove the size of it at this point.
Clearly I was talking about secondary market sales. Collectors paid a numismatic premium over melt for w uncirculated coins even when buying from the Mint, and they were purchased as collectibles, not as bullion. If someone only wanted the bullion, the bullion coins accomplished that purpose at a lower price. When prices for an average MS69 2006 w platinum are notably higher than melt, it's an indication that collectors are buying them and that demand exceeds supply, and that the collector base is larger than the population. We don't see this for average non-w bullion coins.
Now look at this- linky It shows what I have been saying, they are lumped together.
This is proof only that PCGS doesn't bother to differentiate the w uncirculated coins from the bullion coins in this list. At the top, it also says "circulation strikes" which is also mistaken. In a relatively new and not widely collected series like platinum, I doubt that much thought is given by the handful of individuals making these lists about the proper placement of the w uncirculated coins.
The bullion plats have four different reverses, 3 one year reverses and 1 12 year reverse. This is the way I think the coins will be viewed and perhaps valued in many years if not already.
The problem with your opinion on this is that the majority of w uncirculated platinum coin collectors seem to have no interest in the non-w coins, and people are clearly treating them as a different set.
More importantly, the U.S. Mint marketed them as a distinct set, a specific 3 year series. If the w uncirculated coins REPLACED the 2006, 2007 and 2008 years of the bullion program, I might agree with you that they could logically be considered part of the same program. Sort of like the 2009 Lincoln cents -- the new designs are their own type, but the Mint suspended the regular memorial reverse in 2009.
Here's a link for you: Mint website
The Mint describes it as a new 3 year series:
In 2006, the United States Mint embarked on a new, three-year series titled The Foundations of American Democracy. Each year, beginning in 2006, the reverse design has featured an image emblematic of one of the three institutional foundations of our American democracy – the Legislative, the Executive and the Judicial branches. This new series of designs was introduced in the order the branches of government appear in the U.S. Constitution.
If we go by your logic then those coins are not part of the regular bullion coins due to all of the issues you claim, yet they are.
Just as the old silver commemoratives have years of the same design, so do the bullion plats. Just accept this fate and be happy.
In 2006, the United States Mint embarked on a new, three-year series titled The Foundations of American Democracy. Each year, beginning in 2006, the reverse design has featured an image emblematic of one of the three institutional foundations of our American democracy – the Legislative, the Executive and the Judicial branches. This new series of designs was introduced in the order the branches of government appear in the U.S. Constitution.
link
Your part about the mint saying this is a new series is true as far as the reverse goes, they started out with the platnum proof coins and changed the reverse after the first year.
So let's review the proof platinum coins here so everyone is on the same page. Here are the earliest proofs.
Now look at the 1997 proof coin, what reverse is that? It looks to be the same as the non W bullion plats.
Is that 1997 proof coin considered different enough than the other plat proofs?
No.
So logic follows that the bullion plat with that same reverse is no different than the changing reverse unc W plats, they can exist in the same overall set just as they did it with the proofs.
So you see, this all makes sense.
Notice how the 1997 reverse existed only for that one year? and each subsequent year had its own reverse design?
Now look at the bullion platinums. The same reverse for each year. 1997 until present.
In 2006, 2007 and 2008, the Mint didn't suspend the stagnant reverse. It continued it. The Mint also issued a new three coin uncirculated platinum series, aimed and marketed to collectors. Platinum, yes. But it was marketed differently from the bullion coins, with distinct designs, different packaging and different pricing. It's a distinct set. The handful of platinum bullion coin collectors can ignore the 2006-2008 w coins, since they are distinct from the bullion coins. The larger group of Foundations of Liberty platinum coin collectors can ignore the bullion coins, since they are distinct from the 3 coin series. Or either group can branch into the other if they want. Most of the collectors here seem to grasp this, it's really not that confusing.
Even the proof plats have the reverse you think deserves to be separated.
Anyway I think some don't want the w unc to be part of the bullion as they think they will be worth more if they aren't. I am not sure this is accurate as if you have a larger population of overall coins then you probably have a larger potential collector base.
But at least there is no confusion over the buffalo gold fractionals.
Even the proof plats have the reverse you think deserves to be separated.
Well, the older commemoratives with years of the same designs are treated as type coins. So a relatively low mintage coin within some of those multi-year series-- say, for instance, a 1936D Daniel Boone, or a 1949 Booker T. Washington, really don't command a much of a premium compared to a more common single year issue commemorative type coin from the classic commemorative halves. And, of course, the bullion platinums are not commemoratives. Their design doesn't commemorate anything, and as a 12+ year series, they're a much larger set than any of the classic commemorative multi-year series.
Unlike the bullion platinums, the reverse of the 2006-2008 w uncirculateds does have something of a commemorative aspect; the 3 branches of government. On top of that, as you previously acknowledged, each year is its own type.
I haven't really mentioned the w ASEs or w AGEs, but there's no design difference, just a w mintmark and a burnished finish. I don't collect them, but it seems to be enough for those who do. Meanwhile, the platinum proof and w uncirculateds are in a class of their own. The different reverses makes each year its own type coin. Those types fit within a thematic series. There were the Vistas of Liberty from 1998 to 2002 and the Foundations of Democracy from 2006 to 2008. In my opinion, this makes them far more compelling as a collectible than the 1997 to 2008+ bullion platinums, with the stagnant eagle over the sun reverse.
<< <i>Their design doesn't commemorate anything, and as a 12+ year series, they're a much larger set than any of the classic commemorative multi-year series.
>>
It doesn't appear so if you go by date and mintmark. The Oregon Trail is 14 coins. Arkansas is 15 coins. Booker T. is 18 coins. Carver is 12.
Anyway we also aren't talking about what is most compelling, only how these will be categorized. I have already said what is most compelling, but the question is if these fit in with the bullion coins. The same obverse links all of bullion plats just like the same obverse links all of the proof plats.
As the commemoratives show you have multiple years of the same design and it doesn't change the way they are viewed.
The 1997 bullion reverse is the same used as on the proof plat and those are all lumped together. So the bullion seem to be as well.
It has already happened, just sit back and relax.
Cool! What are the chances for a 2009 platinum anything?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<<Cool! What are the chances for a 2009 platinum anything? >>
Magic 8 Ball says "The Future Looks Cloudy"
Damn think never worked right!
"As a result of the numismatic product portfolio analysis conducted last fall, beginning in 2009, American Buffalo Gold Proof fractional coins and the four-coin set are no longer available. Additionally, the United States Mint will no longer offer American Buffalo Gold Uncirculated Coins."
Doesn't that indicate that only the proof issues will be released?
Contrary to earlier reports from Coin World, the US Mint will be issuing 2009 American Gold Buffalo bullion coins during 2009.had published a story in their July 6, 2009 issue stating that the offering was canceled based on information received from the US Mint. This information was not correct and the Mint has already received the 24 karat gold planchets necessary to produce the coins.
Based on current information, the US Mint will offer one ounce 2009 Gold Buffalo bullion coins and one ounce 2009 Gold Buffalo proof coins. Last year, the US Mint sold 189,500 of the one ounce bullion coins and 19,591 of the one ounce proof coins.Release dates for this year's offerings have still not been provided.
Linky
I also noticed that the 2008 Plat Proof sets seem to have dropped. Summer Slump?
CoinWorld had a small story which suggested that the West Point mint has started to gather the raw material to create:
Proof 2009-W American Eagle gold
Uncirculated 2009-W American Eagle gold
Fractional 2009 American Eagle gold bullion coins
Proof 2009-W American Buffalo 1-ounce $50 coins
2009 American Buffalo $50 bullion coin
And they also suggested that the West Point mint does plan to make American Eagle silver collector coins, but is still waiting for more silver planchets to come in before officially announcing it.
................................
No mention pf 2009 platinum.
<< <i>Saw this posted today-
CoinWorld had a small story which suggested that the West Point mint has started to gather the raw material to create:
Proof 2009-W American Eagle gold
Uncirculated 2009-W American Eagle gold
Fractional 2009 American Eagle gold bullion coins
Proof 2009-W American Buffalo 1-ounce $50 coins
2009 American Buffalo $50 bullion coin
And they also suggested that the West Point mint does plan to make American Eagle silver collector coins, but is still waiting for more silver planchets to come in before officially announcing it.
................................
No mention pf 2009 platinum. >>
I think that Coin World also announcec that fractional 2009 gold proof coins might be minted also. Also the limit on the gold UHRs will be increased to 10 on 7/27/2009!
Can anyone tell me what the actual mintage figures were for the 2007 and / or 2008
standard-issue $50.00 one ounce American Gold Eagles that were sold as raw bullion?
Many thanks!
- 2009 Buffalo Gold Proof Coin 1 oz may not be minted after all!
- 2009 Buffalo Bullion Gold 1 oz coin is targeted for production in October 2009.
Although the numbers are subject to final audit, the sales numbers have not changed from those that we have been seeing for most of this year.
This link to Coin Net shows the unchanged sales numbers for 08 W coins:
http://www.coinnews.net/tools/us-mint-collector-bullion-coin-prices-premiums-and-sales-figures/
That said, it seems that the following continue to be the case:
- the 2008 W APE proofs are the lowest mintage
- the 06-W APE uncs are the lower mintage than the 08-W APE uncs
Will there be another great melt down in 2009 or 2010.
Personally I have been surprised platinum prices have held up so well through this recession despite an almost 50% reduction in US auto production.
If we are indeed in a worldwide recovery then industrial demand for platinum may push spot prices above $1500.
Question for the group..........at what price would you turn in your more common APEs??
For me $1700 will get me looking.................$1900 I'll be selling.
Another Question: Why haven't more 2004 APEs been on the market? When the 2008 numbers hit the Red Book, 2004 prices are going to drop hard! Are people just hoping the numbers will audit higher than 2004? Do most people not know about the 2008 numbers? What gives?
Most are tucked away in collections.
If you are a collector of a series you don't dump your 2004s simply because the 2008s are lower mintage.
<< <i>I agree, sell common APEs north of $1900. Pt price should be ~2000 now. Last time gold was 1000, Pt was 2000. The auto industry is the only reason Pt has ranged 900-1200. That'll change over the next 6-18 months.
Another Question: Why haven't more 2004 APEs been on the market? When the 2008 numbers hit the Red Book, 2004 prices are going to drop hard! Are people just hoping the numbers will audit higher than 2004? Do most people not know about the 2008 numbers? What gives? >>
7jaguars and others have pointed out that the 2004s are probably much more widely dispersed than the 2008s. While the 2008s are probably concentrated mostly in the hands of hoarders and dealers, the 2004s are primarily in individual hands, making them a lot less available. I don't know if this is true, but it sounds reasonable. I do think the 2008 price will eventually be tops, but that that won't necessarily crash the 2004s. It all depends on how many series collectors there are. I bought my 2004 at a very high price, but am still happy to have it and won't be dumping it. It could take ten years for this series to really catch on--maybe more.
<< <i>Coin World dated 8/17/09 reported sales numbers from the US Mint for the 08W ASE, APE, & AGE proofs and uncirculated.
Although the numbers are subject to final audit, the sales numbers have not changed from those that we have been seeing for most of this year.
This link to Coin Net shows the unchanged sales numbers for 08 W coins:
http://www.coinnews.net/tools/us-mint-collector-bullion-coin-prices-premiums-and-sales-figures/
That said, it seems that the following continue to be the case:
- the 2008 W APE proofs are the lowest mintage
- the 06-W APE uncs are the lower mintage than the 08-W APE uncs >>