Just heard NFLPA president Gene Upshaw has passed away from cancer.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm on pins and needles for the announcement of the senior candidates....
Greg M. >>
Greg, same here...
Still haven't gotten them...It's like breaking the DaVinci code..lol
The HOF only mailed FIVE packets out and only to the 5 senior committee members who are heading to Canton on the 27th. They were also marked as "CONFIDENTIAL"..I've never understood what the big secret is, but even the other 4 guys from the Senior committee most likely don't even know the semifinalist...
I'm still working the issue through a friend of a friend of a friend who supposedly has hands on the list as we speak. I will post here as soon as I get the names.
If there's anyone else out there with some info or in roads BY ALL MEANS post them here if you got em..lol
Once we get that list we can kick off the voting for any new selections for the Future HOF RC Senior Set. But need to know who we are working with first, and if there are any new names on the list other than Gradishar who will already be transitioning from Modern set to Senior set if/when Gayle ever gets to it.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm on pins and needles for the announcement of the senior candidates....
Greg M. >>
Greg, same here...
Still haven't gotten them...It's like breaking the DaVinci code..lol
The HOF only mailed FIVE packets out and only to the 5 senior committee members who are heading to Canton on the 27th. They were also marked as "CONFIDENTIAL"..I've never understood what the big secret is, but even the other 4 guys from the Senior committee most likely don't even know the semifinalist...
I'm still working the issue through a friend of a friend of a friend who supposedly has hands on the list as we speak. I will post here as soon as I get the names.
If there's anyone else out there with some info or in roads BY ALL MEANS post them here if you got em..lol
Once we get that list we can kick off the voting for any new selections for the Future HOF RC Senior Set. But need to know who we are working with first, and if there are any new names on the list other than Gradishar who will already be transitioning from Modern set to Senior set if/when Gayle ever gets to it.
Jason >>
Thanks Jason - much appreciated. So, what do you think of the situation in Georgia? Do you think NATO will finally grow a set and stand up to the bear?
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Thanks Jason - much appreciated. So, what do you think of the situation in Georgia? Do you think NATO will finally grow a set and stand up to the bear?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
HAHA..That's funny...That was a joke, right? I don't see that happening in my lifetime. They may put some BS sanctions on them, but nothing that will destroy the Russian economy or anything. Russia controls too much of the European oil flow now...Even more since they've gone into Georgia...
It's all about the $$$..Always has been, always will be.
Now back to football!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
WOW!!!!!!!!! I had CC special that arrived @ PSA Tues and my grades were already posted. Not too bad I guess. Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country 1 1 14031865 NEAR MINT 7 1955 BOWMAN 56 JOHN HOFFMAN Card US 2 1 14031866 EXCELLENT-MINT+ 6.5 1957 TOPPS 43 ED BROWN Card US 3 1 14031867 NEAR MINT 7 1960 TOPPS 21 CHICAGO BEARS Card US 4 1 14031868 NEAR MINT 7 1961 TOPPS 14 STAN JONES Card US 5 1 14031869 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 ST 1961 TOPPS 18 CHICAGO BEARS Card US 6 1 14031870 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1970 TOPPS 37 MIKE PYLE Card US 7 1 14031871 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1970 TOPPS 95 RICH JACKSON Card US 8 1 14031872 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1970 TOPPS 97 DICK POST Card US 9 1 14031873 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1970 TOPPS 156 CLAUDE HUMPHREY Card US 10 1 14031874 NEAR MINT 7 1970 TOPPS 163 DOUG BUFFONE Card US 11 1 14031875 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 3 M. SCHOTTENHEIMER Card US 12 1 14031876 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 233 LEMAR PARRISH Card US 13 1 14031877 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 45 LARRY CSONKA Card US 14 1 14031878 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 103 DICK GORDON Card US 15 1 14031879 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1971 TOPPS 211 JAKE SCOTT Card US 16 1 14031880 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1972 TOPPS 341 DICK BUTKUS IN ACTION Card US 17 1 14031881 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1973 TOPPS 517 REGGIE RUCKER Card US 18 1 14031882 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1974 TOPPS 233 CONRAD DOBLER Card US 19 1 14031883 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1974 TOPPS 314 REGGIE McKENZIE Card US 20 1 14031884 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1975 TOPPS 39 ROCKY BLEIER Card US 21 1 14031885 NEAR MINT 7 1978 TOPPS 200 WALTER PAYTON ALL-PRO Card US 22 1 14031886 GEM MINT 10 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 85T ERIK WILLIAMS Card US Total Items: 22 Date Received: 8/18/2008 Date Shipped: N/A Order Status: OK
Well mine doesn't even compare to that. Please let us know what you get. I didn't even know you had picked up one. Did you buy it raw and what grade are you hoping for?
<< <i>Jason, No news yet? You need to work you magic..... >>
Well, the Upshaw story has thrown a monkey wrench into things...The people who have access to the senior list are embroiled in that event right now...Not sure when his funeral is, but my guess is that I won't be able to come up with the list until after that. Maybe not even before next Wednesday when they select the 2...
I plan on asking for it again on Monday, and hopefully can get eyes on. Trust me, I want to see the list before the announcements are made so I can ensure I have all bases covered when it comes to possible cards I might need..lol..The sooner you can get the next Senior HOF selections, the less you will pay...And I will post here as soon as i get something, but I don;t plan on asking today or this weekend as I don't want to seem unsympathetic to the passing of Gene Upshaw..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Randy Gradishar has finally been moved from the modern to the senior HOF set.
Just letting you all know who collect there. Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What do you guys think of the new VCP grid? They now give the average of the last 12 months, looks like taking the last 10 sales, omitting the 2 highest & 2 lowest then averaging the rest. Would you now consider this the new "VCP average" or still go by the average of the last 5?
<< <i>What do you guys think of the new VCP grid? They now give the average of the last 12 months, looks like taking the last 10 sales, omitting the 2 highest & 2 lowest then averaging the rest. Would you now consider this the new "VCP average" or still go by the average of the last 5?
Jasen >>
I think its great...Very nice improvement...
Ok, I have new predictions for the 2 Senior guys finalists from this year based on some new info I received:
Bob Hayes LC Greenwood
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have some more poppage. 15 free subs from my sets. I feel like I got hammered on them. Definately going to resub the Jones and Sanders. Quick turnaround though. Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country 1 1 14031887 EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1963 TOPPS 44 DAVE JONES Card US 2 1 14031888 NEAR MINT 7 1970 TOPPS 151 TOM MACK Card US 3 1 14031889 N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS Card US 4 1 14031890 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 TOPPS 253 MIKE MUNCHAK Card US 5 1 14031891 GEM MINT 10 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 94T AENEAS WILLIAMS Card US 6 1 14031892 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1993 SP 6 JEROME BETTIS FOIL Card US 7 1 14031893 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1971 TOPPS 233 LEMAR PARRISH Card US 8 1 14031894 NEAR MINT 7 1986 TOPPS 154 SEAN LANDETA Card US 9 1 14031895 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1976 TOPPS 223 BILLY JOHNSON Card US 10 1 14031896 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS 490 CLIFF HARRIS Card US 11 1 14031897 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1988 TOPPS 300 KEVIN GREENE Card US 12 1 14031898 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 OC 1957 TOPPS 23 DON CHANDLER Card US 13 1 14031899 EXCELLENT+ 5.5 1957 TOPPS 15 JACK BUTLER Card US 14 1 14031900 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1983 TOPPS 38 MIKE SINGLETARY Card US 15 1 14031901 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1985 TOPPS 325 IRVING FRYAR Card US Total Items: 15 Date Received: 8/18/2008 Date Shipped: N/A Order Status: OK
<< <i>Ok, I have new predictions for the 2 Senior guys finalists from this year based on some new info I received:
Bob Hayes LC Greenwood
Jason >>
Greenwood??? Like we need another 70's Steeler player in the HOF.......
This was a copy and paste from your HOF potential SR's from Jan 2007. Boy how things change....
<< <i>First off, i think there are some seniors NOT on this list that are deserving...These senior finalists are not the same every year, but i'll give my take on the other 15 from this year...
Charlie Conerly--No chance..Had a couple of huge seasons, but QB is tough...Freidman got in as a Senior QB recently, but his accomplishments were HUGE in comparison..Not HOF caliber Pat Fischer--Solid player, he was a great cover CB and could tackle...Longshot though, not HOF caliber L.C. Greenwood--I dont think LC ever gets in...He was a great player surrounded by greater players...Not HOF caliber Cliff Harris--Agree with Scott, Cliff Harris was DOMINANT as any safety in the 70's. Doesnt have alot of Pro bowls, but was HOF caliber player and deserves to be in..HOF caliber Bob Hayes--Had his shot as a Senior, highly unlikely he will ever get another..Not HOF caliber Chuck Howley--Very overlooked, but is hurt by the glut of excellent LB candidates..Toss up Claude Humphrey--Was more dominant than Greenwood but played in ATL for most of career..More deserving than LC, i thought he would be a Senior candidate this year..Maybe next...HOF caliber Lee Roy Jordan--See Howley above...I think Howley would be higher on my list, but not by much..Toss up Floyd Little--No chance..Flashy player, but not enough substance to his career..Not HOF caliber Jim Marshall--He was great because??He played forever??Solid guy, but no where near other HOF caliber DL Tommy Nobis--I actually put him above Howley and Jordan..Like Humprey, he didnt get the accolades playinf for an expansion team, but if you have ever seen film, the guy was a dminant force who didnt have much help around him..Like a Zach Thomas...Hes HOF caliber Dave Robinson--Another LB, see what i mean??lol...I put him behind the other 3 LBs, but he's a packer and that always pulls weight..not HOF caliber though Otis Taylor---Made some big plays in his career..One of the first "size matters" WRs..But not HOF caliber Mick Tingelhoff---I thought he would be the other Senior candidate this year...He was clearly one of the best in the game during his years..HOF caliber Billy Wilson--VERY overlooked Wr in my opinion..Much like a Tommy McDonald, i could see Wilson slipping in the HOF down the line..Was great for the 49ers during his day...Toss up
Unfortunately Dave, I'm not a voter...If I were, my choices most certainly wouldn't be Hayes and Greenwood. Those write-ups were based on my opinions...The predictions of Hayes and Greenwood are not based on my feelings towards the player, but rather evidence and opinions I've gotten either from the actual voters or from others "in the know"...
I got a tip on which players are flying into on the 27th to speak to the senior committee and give their first hand opinions on the final 15...Based on who those players are, Greenwood seems like the logical favorite...Just a hunch though...
Again, my predictions and opinions are just that..Nothing is ever certain until the 2 guys are announced. The 5 voters are going to debate and discuss who they want to select. It could be any 2 from the final 15, simply because most, if not all, are deserving...
I've said many times in the past Tommy Nobis and Mick Tingelhoff are the top senior candidates if I were voting...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Well, first I'd have to become a member of the media and be selected as a HOF voter..That will never happen...lol
My dream is to work at the HOF after I retire from the military in 2012...This is actually a realistic possibility because I'm friends with someone who already works there as a paid employee...They also have a volunteer program that you can apply for, where your duties consist of leading walking tours through the HOF. Good way to get your foot in the door, and for me I won't particularly have to have a payng job when I retire so as long as the wife doesnt mind living in Ohio, its something I am looking at.
Anyway, I still don't have eyes on the list..BUT, I did get an e-mail yesterday evening that confirms most of the usual, every year candidates are also on the list. No glaring omissions of guys who are on the final list every year. Based on that, it should mean these players are on it..
Bob Hayes Chuck Howley Dave Robinson Jim Marshall LC Greenwood Tommy Nobis Floyd Little Mick Tingelhoff
The same e-mail also mentions specifically that "a couple" of QBs are also on this list.. John Hadl and John Brodie were on it last year, Charlie Conerly has made the list in the past, but I think the 2 are Hadl and Brodie...
That would make 10 of the 15+ on the list...In the mailing the HOF sent out, they requested that the list remains private. One of the voters (Ira Miller) actually had his vote pulled because of spilling to much info last year. So the voters are being fairly protective this year...It will come out eventually though, at worst it will be after the 2 are selected. I still don;t understand why the Senior vote is so private when the modern cutdowns are publicly announced. The reason I was given is that since the Senior voting pool is so small (only 9 of them) they don't want to be inundated with e-mails and calls from fans wanting them to put in their favorite candidates. This does happen with modern candidates, but its spread over 40+ voters and not centralized to 9 of them.
Anyway, I don't think we will have any "surprise" selections this year like we did last time...The 5 guys going are fairly solid and I think they will pick amongst the most popular candidates so they can ensure both gain election in Feb.
Other than those mentioned above, the other "popular" candidates are Jerry Kramer, Claude Humphrey, Otis Taylor, Lee Roy Jordan and Cliff Harris. The will NOT select 2 Cowboys players in the same year though, so unless Bob Hayes gets bumped the other Cowboys guys won't get picked. Personally I think Gradishar will be on this list as well.
So, the UNOFFICIAL list I think we will see these 15 players: Bob Hayes Chuck Howley Dave Robinson Jim Marshall LC Greenwood Tommy Nobis Floyd Little Mick Tingelhoff John Hadl John Brodie Claude Humphrey Jerry Kramer Randy Gradishar Cliff Harris Lee Roy Jordan
Could be some others (more than 15) and a few of these are guesses. We'll see how close I am once we see the OFFICIAL list.
Jason
Edited to add: I think if John Brodie and or Al Wistert on this semifinal list, those are the 2 we will need to vote on for addition to the Future HOF Senior set. Every other guy who's ever been a semifinalist at least 2 times is already in the set. The only others guys who have ever been a semifinalist yet are not on our set: Ed Sprinkle, Pete Retzlaff and Marshall Goldberg..So keep an eye on those guys if they make the semi's, we should vote on their addition as well...I have some others Seniors i will throw into the voting for various reasons, but as always we will go with the consensus on who we want added.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Still no official list...So I thought I would go back and see how i did last year with my predictions..While I certainly did not think Goldberg and Thomas would be the picks, my info was pretty good, pretty close...I've highlighted were I was "sort of" right..lol
"""Wednesday August 22, 2007 11:11 PM
Alright, more info to pass along..
--Almost definitively at least one of the selections, if not both, is going to be a defensive player.
--The biggest logjam (obviously) is at LB.
--There is a push (I assume because of the Mike Vick issue) to get one of the 2 deserving Atlanta Falcons in this year.
Tommy Nobis fits all 3 of the above listed items, I'm going to be very surprised if he isn't one of the selections this time.
The 2nd spot seems more up for grabs. Both Howley and Hayes got high reviews. Kramer could actually leapfrog Tinglehoff and get in. I thought Goldberg and Wistert would really shock me, but these are the 2 guys have been waiting the longest . A couple of the 5 Senior committee guys making the selections in Canton tomorrow are the oldest of the old school and are the same ones who pushed to elect Friedman and Pollard a couple of years back.
Not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but only 5 of the 9 Senior Committee members actually go to Canton every year to select the final 2. Its done on a rotating basis, so the same voters don't go every year. Well this year would not surprise me to see either of the 2 WAY BACK players get in.""
Again, I will stick with my post above as to my predictions for this year and the following:
-Fairly confident that Bob Hayes will be one of the choices and will get elected this time..I was told "If Art Monk is in, Bob Hayes has to be there because he changed the way defenses played."
-Greenwood is really just a hunch. Based on the 2 HOFers who will be meeting with the Senior committee I have to think it is almost certainly a D-Lineman from the 60s-70s, and Greenwood, Jim Marshall and Claude Humphrey are the ones who fit that bill. I would just find it hard to believe that they could vote Humphrey in OVER "Mr. Falcon" Tommy Nobis t0 be the first Atlanta player enshrined. BUT, certainly doesn't mean they won't..lol..Wouldn't surprise me if Jim Marshall is picked though..With Cris Carter a lock for 2009 and Randall McDaniel a strong contender, they could easily choose to do the multiple players from one team thing again like they did with the Redskins this year...Tingelhoff is one of my favorites, but not likely this time IMO.
-2nd possibility based on the guest speakers is maybe a late 60's early 70's QB...This would be between Hadl and Brodie, but can they really overlook the defense guys again to put in a WR and a QB? If Bob Hayes ISN'T one of the 2 selection, I think it will be one of these QB's that trumps him somehow...
-Longest of longshots that a pre-modern player is picked this year. Based on the 5 going to Canton, it would be shock of the century if any of the old timers are picked this year...Not even sure which (if any) of them made the semi-list, but it won't matter..It will be 2 modern era players.
-Lastly, a couple of wildcards who, for various reasons, wouldn't surprise me if they are sleected...Jerry Kramer, Randy Gradishar, and Tommy Nobis...Anyone else with the exception of the few mentioned above will really surprise me.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Got some more poppage. 2 more freebies from set regs. Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country 1 1 14031902 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1974 TOPPS 183 JOE DeLAMIELLEURE Card US 2 1 14031903 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1979 TOPPS 411 DONNIE SHELL Card US Total Items: 2 Date Received: 8/18/2008
Yes, and I'm getting a little impatient. CHecked in on August 19th. Guarenteed 5 days. Today is day 6 with still no poppage. ITS ONE FRICKIN CARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! arg.........
Should be announced ot the public in the next couple of hours..
Not bad predictions, huh???lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I had a PSA 8 listed in my ebay store until yesterday for $39. I pulled it last night because I was pretty sure one of the three 60s-70s DL's would be chosen.
Needless to say, it was sold about an hour ago for double that...lol
I wonder what a Bob Hayes 8 would sell for in the next few days?? $500?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hayes, Humphrey named 2009 senior candidates August 27, 2008
Posted: 1:40 p.m. ET | Updated: 1:56 p.m. ET
Wide receiver Bob Hayes and defensive end Claude Humphrey have been selected by the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Seniors Committee as finalists for election into the Hall of Fame with the Class of 2009.
Hayes and Humphrey will join 15 still-to-be-named modern-era candidates on the list of finalists from which the Class of 2009 will be selected. The Hall of Fame selection meeting will be held on January 31, 2009, the day before Super Bowl XLIII in Tampa, Florida. To be elected, Hayes and Humphrey must each receive the same 80 percent voting support that is required of all finalists. The Hall’s Board of Selectors can elect a maximum of two senior candidates and five modern-era candidates for a class no smaller than four or larger than seven during next January’s meeting.
Both of the senior nominees have been finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in the past. Hayes was the seniors committee’s candidate in 2004 while Humphrey was a modern-era finalist three times (2003, 2005 and 2006).
Hayes, who earned the label “World’s Fastest Human” during his gold medal-winning performances in track during the 1964 Summer Olympics, took the NFL by storm upon joining the Dallas Cowboys a year later. As a rookie, Hayes led the NFL in 1965 with a 21.8 yards per catch average and scored a league-best 12 touchdown receptions. He recorded 1,000-yard seasons in both of his first two years in the NFL.
A three-time All-NFL pick, Hayes amassed 371 career receptions for 7,414 yards and 71 touchdowns during his 11-season career with the Cowboys (1965-1974) and the San Francisco 49ers (1975). He also returned 104 punts for 1,158 yards and three touchdowns; and had 23 kickoff returns for 581 yards.
Hayes, who passed away on September 18, 2002, played in six NFL/NFC championship games and started in two Super Bowls.
Humphrey was selected as the third player overall in the 1968 draft by the Falcons and had an immediate impact in the NFL. Named the NFL’s Defensive Rookie of the Year, Humphrey quickly developed a reputation as one of the best pass rushers in football.
Although the sack did not become an official statistic until 1982, Humphrey is unofficially credited as having 122 career sacks during his career with the Falcons (1968-1978) and Philadelphia Eagles (1979-1981).
He was named first team All-Pro in 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1977. A six-time Pro Bowl selection, Humphrey battled back from a potential career-ending knee injury that forced him to miss the entire 1975 season. He responded by recording a career-high 15 sacks in 1976.
Humphrey capped his career with three final seasons in Philadelphia. In 1980, he led the Eagles with a club-high 14.5 sacks as the Eagles won the NFC championship to earn a berth in Super Bowl XV.
The Class of 2009 will be formally inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame during the enshrinement ceremony on August 8 at Canton’s Fawcett Stadium.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark >>
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
All I can say is that he was certainly a GREAT offensive lineman. Anyone saying differently never watched him play...Secondly, for whatever issues Upshaw had the past few years while serving as the NFLPA President (and there were many), the record speaks for itself. Look at player salaries before his tenure and now after, the guy made a difference plain and simple.
That position (really anyone who serves as the head of a union) arguing, stalemates, disagreements..That's part of the job description...
It's a shame he couldn't solve every problem, but he certainly solved his share. Maybe the next guy can solve these other issues, but always know that solving one, will create 3 others...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark >>
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
All I can say is that he was certainly a GREAT offensive lineman. Anyone saying differently never watched him play...Secondly, for whatever issues Upshaw had the past few years while serving as the NFLPA President (and there were many), the record speaks for itself. Look at player salaries before his tenure and now after, the guy made a difference plain and simple.
That position (really anyone who serves as the head of a union) arguing, stalemates, disagreements..That's part of the job description...
It's a shame he couldn't solve every problem, but he certainly solved his share. Maybe the next guy can solve these other issues, but always know that solving one, will create 3 others...
Jason >>
Yeah, I suppose a little harsh...but absolutely the truth. They would get together to discuss the previous contract and Gene would be cussing and yelling, and nobody had the balls to tell him. Gene took on the stand of screw the players that could not afford to eat or pay for medicine from NFL related injuries. In fact, he would make the player go to 6-7 doctors to declare it was NFL related....and then still deny the guy.
Yes, they do have more then before Gene, but show me one sport where players don't get more now then they did in the 70s and 80s.
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark >>
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
All I can say is that he was certainly a GREAT offensive lineman. Anyone saying differently never watched him play...Secondly, for whatever issues Upshaw had the past few years while serving as the NFLPA President (and there were many), the record speaks for itself. Look at player salaries before his tenure and now after, the guy made a difference plain and simple.
That position (really anyone who serves as the head of a union) arguing, stalemates, disagreements..That's part of the job description...
It's a shame he couldn't solve every problem, but he certainly solved his share. Maybe the next guy can solve these other issues, but always know that solving one, will create 3 others...
Jason >>
Yeah, I suppose a little harsh...but absolutely the truth. They would get together to discuss the previous contract and Gene would be cussing and yelling, and nobody had the balls to tell him. Gene took on the stand of screw the players that could not afford to eat or pay for medicine from NFL related injuries. In fact, he would make the player go to 6-7 doctors to declare it was NFL related....and then still deny the guy.
Yes, they do have more then before Gene, but show me one sport where players don't get more now then they did in the 70s and 80s.
Mark >>
Mark, I think you are simplifying the situation. There is ALOT more that goes into retro-actively applying full health benefits to all former players. It's something that has been in the works and in discussion for some time now. I agree with you, it is an important issue, but you are talking a ton of cash that will have to come from somewhere. Much like universal healthcare proposed by the democrats right now. That still hasn't been passed either because if all the money it would require has to come from somewhere. As far as the NFL goes, the owners NOR the players want to give up the cash to support it.
Eventually they will find a happy medium, but hanging that entire issue on Gene Upshaw is very shortsighted IMO.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Will be interesting to see who they blame with Upshaw gone...As you say, should be a clear path to getting an agreement now right?? Willing to bet it still doesn't get done in the next year?
First order of business will be to get an agreement in place that prevents a work stoppage in a couple of years and causes the salary cap to disappear..Then it will be just like MLB with the Cowboys and Redskins and the big market teams signing all the expensive FAs..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Will be interesting to see who they blame with Upshaw gone...As you say, should be a clear path to getting an agreement now right?? Willing to bet it still doesn't get done in the next year?
First order of business will be to get an agreement in place that prevents a work stoppage in a couple of years and causes the salary cap to disappear..Then it will be just like MLB with the Cowboys and Redskins and the big market teams signing all the expensive FAs..
Jason >>
If you do not put words in my mouth Jason, I will do you the favor of not putting words in your mouth.
Nowhere did I say there would be clear path now. I just stated that when they got together, which they did multiple times on this issue, Gene would literally be yelling and cussing. It is my belief, and I don't see how anyone with inside knowledge such as yourself could deny, is that they were getting nowhere with Gene. How many times have you got into a cussing match and solved anything?
Ditka and others presented the players association with undeniable evidence of players with no money and injuries verified by multiple doctors as being NFL related. Gene basically told them to go screw themselves.
Now I see a salary cap that guarantees the owners will make billions this next year. I know when I go to the Chief games, I end up shelling out about $100, along with 50,000 other people, and the Chiefs air the game on TV for several million. The money is there and it was there. NFL is the fastest growing sport. The top teams can do a billion in merchandise sales.
Here is a pre-death quote by Ditka....who with others, has raised money to help out his fellow players, that Gene put threw multiple hoops...and then ignored.
"They're the people who are irresponsible," Ditka said of Upshaw and his fellow union leaders. "Nobody is less deserving of his position because he has no comprehension of what it means to give back to the game. He's a fraud."
and...
"[Upshaw is] taking loans from the Players Association which are illegal,'' Ditka said. ''You cannot take any loan which [is] over $4,000 from the union." ''He's on the books for over [a] $100,000 loan, which is really a criminal offense.''
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Great job on the prediction - thank god I have a PSA 7 Hayes and PSA 8 Humphrey. I love the future HOF sets...they really got me focused on picking up rc's of players that I otherwise wouldn't have.
My opinion on Upshaw - he definately could have done better when it comes to providing benefits to the older players. He inherited a benefit/pension system whereby older players got a much smaller piece of the pie than the modern players. What's exascerbated the problem is the massive increase in salaries over the past 15 years. For example, when Stan Jones retired after the 63 season he was making $19k. If his pension was based upon his highest salary, then his pension would be 25% (for sake of argument) x $19k = $4750 or c. $400 per month - possibly indexed for inflation. Of course this looks a pittance when compared to modern salaries, however the pension system probably didn't take into account the massive salary increases. The same is probably true of their health care costs - just look at the price inflation for heath care premiums over the past 10 to 20 years...it's sick.
You provided a great analogy to the Universal Heath Care program espoused by Mr. Obama. It's a great idea, however noone is willing to write a check to provide the necessary funding.
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Great job on the prediction - thank god I have a PSA 7 Hayes and PSA 8 Humphrey. I love the future HOF sets...they really got me focused on picking up rc's of players that I otherwise wouldn't have.
My opinion on Upshaw - he definately could have done better when it comes to providing benefits to the older players. He inherited a benefit/pension system whereby older players got a much smaller piece of the pie than the modern players. What's exascerbated the problem is the massive increase in salaries over the past 15 years. For example, when Stan Jones retired after the 63 season he was making $19k. If his pension was based upon his highest salary, then his pension would be 25% (for sake of argument) x $19k = $4750 or c. $400 per month - possibly indexed for inflation. Of course this looks a pittance when compared to modern salaries, however the pension system probably didn't take into account the massive salary increases. The same is probably true of their health care costs - just look at the price inflation for heath care premiums over the past 10 to 20 years...it's sick.
You provided a great analogy to the Universal Heath Care program espoused by Mr. Obama. It's a great idea, however noone is willing to write a check to provide the necessary funding.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Very well stated Greg.
Mark, my apologies. While you didn't say it, but you certainly implied it with this statement:
"I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate."
I'm not sure where you get your information from or why you think Gene Upshaw controled everything that had to do with helping the older players with health issues, but just because Upshaw got into a pissing match in a meeting doesn;t mean he was the one and only guy holding up the process of getting a retro-active healthcare system approved.
It's professional football, it's about the money. The last collective bargaining agreement that was approved was so in favor of the players, many of the small market teams will have trouble turning a profit the next few years. 57% of the total football revenue goes to the ACTIVE players. So who's gonna pay for all the old timers? Why shouldn't the players be expected to shoulder that expense to take care of their own? Upshaw's disagreement was that he wanted the owners to bear most of that burden and the owners want the players to shoulder most of it. As the NFLPA rep, should Upshaw have said, sure, the players will pay for it all..I mean I don't hear many active players saying they would take a 10% paycut across the board to fund ex-players in need of assistance...
Again, I understand where you are coming from to a point. But you've either got mis-information or you have bought into some of the political retoric from the ex-players side without exploring the reasons that it hasn;t been approved yet.
My question to you, what will your opnion be if this issue still isn't resolved a year from now..Or 2 years from now?? Still Upshaw's fault for not agreeing that all active players take a paycut in order to fund the program?
Edited to add:
Much like any other contract negotiation, the NFLPA and the owners need to find a middle ground to get something done. Not just on this issue, but all the other issues of disagreement they currently have. Not sure if you are aware, but as of right now, we are looking at an NFL work stoppage in 2011. It may also mean the end to the salary cap. If a work stoppage happens NO ONE is getting paid...If the salary cap goes away, some cities are going to lose their teams.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What's sad is that it probably wouldn't require a huge pay decrease for the players to fund a pool to be shared w/ the retired players. What are total salaries for 2008...$2b to $3b? Let's say the players set aside $40mm to $60mm, that's only 2% of their gross pay. I think that most playerse could spare the 2%....(i.e. Tom Brady will earn $9.8mm instead of $10mm). I almost wonder if the contributions could be structure as a partial donation, which would be tax deductible (and hence neutral from the payor's perspective).
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
"My question to you, what will your opnion be if this issue still isn't resolved a year from now..Or 2 years from now?? Still Upshaw's fault for not agreeing that all active players take a paycut in order to fund the program?"
i respect your opinion a lot Jason. I do not know your occupation, but it appears you are a sports writer...or connected fairly close to the field. I have over 100 published articles myself, mostly scientific related, although I did some sport ghost writing for a few years. They usually tore up my article and it never appeared as I wrote it....enough that I usually did not feel it was my article....but it was what it was...and it paid the bills for a short time. I mention all this because I feel I can relate to you to some degree. So I hope we can agree to disagree if it should come to that.
I met Upshaw about 10 years ago. He was very pleasant, and presented himself well. I also think he was a great player and I believe he should be a HOF member. In fact, I use to produce postcards and almost entered a business agreement with him. I never could get a marque player to sign up though, as they all wanted $50,000 plus, so it never happened.
I also understand that in that position, you will pretty much just create enemies, nor do I know the NFL-Player Association solution in all of this.
However, none of that changes my opinion he was a traitor.
So to answer your question.
What happens after Gene, does not change the past. If you take a job of position on the other side of the fence of where you where, and passionately defend your position against those you were once one of to the manner Gene did, yes that makes you a traitor.
The webster online dictionary defines traitor as:
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty 2 : one who commits treason
Gene Upshaw 100% fits the first definition...IMO. He betrayed the trust of what use to be his fellow players and failed in obligation and duty to them, while his own wallet got fat.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
i respect your opinion a lot Jason. I do not know your occupation, but it appears you are a sports writer...or connected fairly close to the field. I have over 100 published articles myself, mostly scientific related, although I did some sport ghost writing for a few years. They usually tore up my article and it never appeared as I wrote it....enough that I usually did not feel it was my article....but it was what it was...and it paid the bills for a short time. I mention all this because I feel I can relate to you to some degree. So I hope we can agree to disagree if it should come to that.
I met Upshaw about 10 years ago. He was very pleasant, and presented himself well. I also think he was a great player and I believe he should be a HOF member. In fact, I use to produce postcards and almost entered a business agreement with him. I never could get a marque player to sign up though, as they all wanted $50,000 plus, so it never happened.
I also understand that in that position, you will pretty much just create enemies, nor do I know the NFL-Player Association solution in all of this.
However, none of that changes my opinion he was a traitor.
So to answer your question.
What happens after Gene, does not change the past. If you take a job of position on the other side of the fence of where you where, and passionately defend your position against those you were once one of to the manner Gene did, yes that makes you a traitor.
The webster online dictionary defines traitor as:
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty 2 : one who commits treason
Gene Upshaw 100% fits the first definition...IMO. He betrayed the trust of what use to be his fellow players and failed in obligation and duty to them, while his own wallet got fat. >>
Absolutely Mark...I agree to disagree pretty often in life..lol
Still not sure how it makes him a traitor. He was the NFLPA President and his #1 job description was to ensure active NFL players get the most money they can possibly get. Could he have done more to push the issue with the owners? Maybe..Maybe that's the negative and/or reason you think he was a traitor. But one guy can only do so much. If the owners are telling him they want the NFLPA to fund it, and the NFLPA is saying they want the owners to fund it Upshaw's only job in that debate is to defend the stance of the players. Many players felt he didn't represent them well, others thought he did great. It's a political/elected position and from everything I know of this particular issue, Upshaw was made out to be the fall guy for it. The owners looked to Gene to push the players to fund it..The players looked to Gene to get the owners to fund it..This is a fundamental dispute the takes place in MANY different inductries, not just professional football.
I stand behind my opinion in that Upshaw left the players union in 1000x better position than it was in when he took over at the NFLPA Pres. No, he didn't solve everything unfortunately. But can you can show me ONE President of any company (or government) that solved every issue under his stead?
I hope you're right. I hope whoever the next union leader is, he can be the guy who fixes the CBA and fixes player healthcare issues and whatever other pending items they have right now. Once those are fixed, he'll have 5 new things to solve that we don't even know anything about at this point...lol..Just the nature of business.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
i respect your opinion a lot Jason. I do not know your occupation, but it appears you are a sports writer...or connected fairly close to the field.
>>
BTW, thanks for thinking so highly, but I'm no sportswriter...Just an Army Infantry guy for the past 16 years...
Being a football historian first and foremost (my #1 hobby, even before cards) for the last 28 years I have made quite a few contacts in the field. Even lucky enough to call a couple of HOF voters friends.
5 years from now when I retire and get a job at the Pro Football HOF I'll be the first to take you to the HOF research library so you can review the "minutes" annotated for some of the owners meetings with the NFLPA during Upshaw's time. Maybe will give you a different perspective.
Really, unless you were in the room for all those discussions ( I wasn't either) we are really just going off hearsay...The "minutes" are always recorded though, and serve as a transcript of exactly who said what and whith whom the true issues reside.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have an extra Humphrey. I have a 7, but I have a 7.5 in the mail that just popped a couple of days ago. Sounds like a good time to sell or do you guys think it would be wiser to hold off until/if he is actually voted in?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Now arn't ya glad you stole that one of me andy........Gees I really couldn't stand the begging and seeing a grown man cry.......until I had to give it away to stop all that. I still have about 5 nice psa 8's He is long overdue. A nice bob hayes s very hard to find...
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Comments
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Just heard NFLPA president Gene Upshaw has passed away from cancer.
Jason >>
Wow - RIP. Gene was definately a polarizing figure, however it's still sad to see that he's passed.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
I'm on pins and needles for the announcement of the senior candidates....
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
B
<< <i>Jason,
I'm on pins and needles for the announcement of the senior candidates....
Greg M. >>
Greg, same here...
Still haven't gotten them...It's like breaking the DaVinci code..lol
The HOF only mailed FIVE packets out and only to the 5 senior committee members who are heading to Canton on the 27th. They were also marked as "CONFIDENTIAL"..I've never understood what the big secret is, but even the other 4 guys from the Senior committee most likely don't even know the semifinalist...
I'm still working the issue through a friend of a friend of a friend who supposedly has hands on the list as we speak. I will post here as soon as I get the names.
If there's anyone else out there with some info or in roads BY ALL MEANS post them here if you got em..lol
Once we get that list we can kick off the voting for any new selections for the Future HOF RC Senior Set. But need to know who we are working with first, and if there are any new names on the list other than Gradishar who will already be transitioning from Modern set to Senior set if/when Gayle ever gets to it.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jason,
I'm on pins and needles for the announcement of the senior candidates....
Greg M. >>
Greg, same here...
Still haven't gotten them...It's like breaking the DaVinci code..lol
The HOF only mailed FIVE packets out and only to the 5 senior committee members who are heading to Canton on the 27th. They were also marked as "CONFIDENTIAL"..I've never understood what the big secret is, but even the other 4 guys from the Senior committee most likely don't even know the semifinalist...
I'm still working the issue through a friend of a friend of a friend who supposedly has hands on the list as we speak. I will post here as soon as I get the names.
If there's anyone else out there with some info or in roads BY ALL MEANS post them here if you got em..lol
Once we get that list we can kick off the voting for any new selections for the Future HOF RC Senior Set. But need to know who we are working with first, and if there are any new names on the list other than Gradishar who will already be transitioning from Modern set to Senior set if/when Gayle ever gets to it.
Jason >>
Thanks Jason - much appreciated. So, what do you think of the situation in Georgia? Do you think NATO will finally grow a set and stand up to the bear?
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Thanks Jason - much appreciated. So, what do you think of the situation in Georgia? Do you think NATO will finally grow a set and stand up to the bear?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
HAHA..That's funny...That was a joke, right? I don't see that happening in my lifetime. They may put some BS sanctions on them, but nothing that will destroy the Russian economy or anything. Russia controls too much of the European oil flow now...Even more since they've gone into Georgia...
It's all about the $$$..Always has been, always will be.
Now back to football!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country
1 1 14031865 NEAR MINT 7 1955 BOWMAN 56 JOHN HOFFMAN Card US
2 1 14031866 EXCELLENT-MINT+ 6.5 1957 TOPPS 43 ED BROWN Card US
3 1 14031867 NEAR MINT 7 1960 TOPPS 21 CHICAGO BEARS Card US
4 1 14031868 NEAR MINT 7 1961 TOPPS 14 STAN JONES Card US
5 1 14031869 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 ST 1961 TOPPS 18 CHICAGO BEARS Card US
6 1 14031870 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1970 TOPPS 37 MIKE PYLE Card US
7 1 14031871 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1970 TOPPS 95 RICH JACKSON Card US
8 1 14031872 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1970 TOPPS 97 DICK POST Card US
9 1 14031873 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1970 TOPPS 156 CLAUDE HUMPHREY Card US
10 1 14031874 NEAR MINT 7 1970 TOPPS 163 DOUG BUFFONE Card US
11 1 14031875 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 3 M. SCHOTTENHEIMER Card US
12 1 14031876 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 233 LEMAR PARRISH Card US
13 1 14031877 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 45 LARRY CSONKA Card US
14 1 14031878 NEAR MINT 7 1971 TOPPS 103 DICK GORDON Card US
15 1 14031879 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1971 TOPPS 211 JAKE SCOTT Card US
16 1 14031880 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1972 TOPPS 341 DICK BUTKUS IN ACTION Card US
17 1 14031881 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1973 TOPPS 517 REGGIE RUCKER Card US
18 1 14031882 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1974 TOPPS 233 CONRAD DOBLER Card US
19 1 14031883 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1974 TOPPS 314 REGGIE McKENZIE Card US
20 1 14031884 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1975 TOPPS 39 ROCKY BLEIER Card US
21 1 14031885 NEAR MINT 7 1978 TOPPS 200 WALTER PAYTON ALL-PRO Card US
22 1 14031886 GEM MINT 10 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 85T ERIK WILLIAMS Card US
Total Items: 22
Date Received: 8/18/2008
Date Shipped: N/A
Order Status: OK
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>That's cool. I have a 1 card Express sub checked in on Monday. You beat me!! (It's a Nagurski) >>
Please let us know what you get.
I didn't even know you had picked up one. Did you buy it raw and what grade are you hoping for?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Jason, No news yet? You need to work you magic..... >>
Well, the Upshaw story has thrown a monkey wrench into things...The people who have access to the senior list are embroiled in that event right now...Not sure when his funeral is, but my guess is that I won't be able to come up with the list until after that. Maybe not even before next Wednesday when they select the 2...
I plan on asking for it again on Monday, and hopefully can get eyes on. Trust me, I want to see the list before the announcements are made so I can ensure I have all bases covered when it comes to possible cards I might need..lol..The sooner you can get the next Senior HOF selections, the less you will pay...And I will post here as soon as i get something, but I don;t plan on asking today or this weekend as I don't want to seem unsympathetic to the passing of Gene Upshaw..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Just letting you all know who collect there.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
<< <i>What do you guys think of the new VCP grid? They now give the average of the last 12 months, looks like taking the last 10 sales, omitting the 2 highest & 2 lowest then averaging the rest. Would you now consider this the new "VCP average" or still go by the average of the last 5?
Jasen >>
I think its great...Very nice improvement...
Ok, I have new predictions for the 2 Senior guys finalists from this year based on some new info I received:
Bob Hayes
LC Greenwood
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country
1 1 14031887 EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1963 TOPPS 44 DAVE JONES Card US
2 1 14031888 NEAR MINT 7 1970 TOPPS 151 TOM MACK Card US
3 1 14031889 N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS Card US
4 1 14031890 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 TOPPS 253 MIKE MUNCHAK Card US
5 1 14031891 GEM MINT 10 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 94T AENEAS WILLIAMS Card US
6 1 14031892 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1993 SP 6 JEROME BETTIS FOIL Card US
7 1 14031893 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1971 TOPPS 233 LEMAR PARRISH Card US
8 1 14031894 NEAR MINT 7 1986 TOPPS 154 SEAN LANDETA Card US
9 1 14031895 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1976 TOPPS 223 BILLY JOHNSON Card US
10 1 14031896 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1975 TOPPS 490 CLIFF HARRIS Card US
11 1 14031897 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1988 TOPPS 300 KEVIN GREENE Card US
12 1 14031898 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 OC 1957 TOPPS 23 DON CHANDLER Card US
13 1 14031899 EXCELLENT+ 5.5 1957 TOPPS 15 JACK BUTLER Card US
14 1 14031900 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1983 TOPPS 38 MIKE SINGLETARY Card US
15 1 14031901 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1985 TOPPS 325 IRVING FRYAR Card US
Total Items: 15
Date Received: 8/18/2008
Date Shipped: N/A
Order Status: OK
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Ok, I have new predictions for the 2 Senior guys finalists from this year based on some new info I received:
Bob Hayes
LC Greenwood
Jason >>
Greenwood??? Like we need another 70's Steeler player in the HOF.......
This was a copy and paste from your HOF potential SR's from Jan 2007. Boy how things change....
<< <i>First off, i think there are some seniors NOT on this list that are deserving...These senior finalists are not the same every year, but i'll give my take on the other 15 from this year...
Charlie Conerly--No chance..Had a couple of huge seasons, but QB is tough...Freidman got in as a Senior QB recently, but his accomplishments were HUGE in comparison..Not HOF caliber
Pat Fischer--Solid player, he was a great cover CB and could tackle...Longshot though, not HOF caliber
L.C. Greenwood--I dont think LC ever gets in...He was a great player surrounded by greater players...Not HOF caliber
Cliff Harris--Agree with Scott, Cliff Harris was DOMINANT as any safety in the 70's. Doesnt have alot of Pro bowls, but was HOF caliber player and deserves to be in..HOF caliber
Bob Hayes--Had his shot as a Senior, highly unlikely he will ever get another..Not HOF caliber
Chuck Howley--Very overlooked, but is hurt by the glut of excellent LB candidates..Toss up
Claude Humphrey--Was more dominant than Greenwood but played in ATL for most of career..More deserving than LC, i thought he would be a Senior candidate this year..Maybe next...HOF caliber
Lee Roy Jordan--See Howley above...I think Howley would be higher on my list, but not by much..Toss up
Floyd Little--No chance..Flashy player, but not enough substance to his career..Not HOF caliber
Jim Marshall--He was great because??He played forever??Solid guy, but no where near other HOF caliber DL
Tommy Nobis--I actually put him above Howley and Jordan..Like Humprey, he didnt get the accolades playinf for an expansion team, but if you have ever seen film, the guy was a dminant force who didnt have much help around him..Like a Zach Thomas...Hes HOF caliber
Dave Robinson--Another LB, see what i mean??lol...I put him behind the other 3 LBs, but he's a packer and that always pulls weight..not HOF caliber though
Otis Taylor---Made some big plays in his career..One of the first "size matters" WRs..But not HOF caliber
Mick Tingelhoff---I thought he would be the other Senior candidate this year...He was clearly one of the best in the game during his years..HOF caliber
Billy Wilson--VERY overlooked Wr in my opinion..Much like a Tommy McDonald, i could see Wilson slipping in the HOF down the line..Was great for the 49ers during his day...Toss up
Jason
>>
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
I got a tip on which players are flying into on the 27th to speak to the senior committee and give their first hand opinions on the final 15...Based on who those players are, Greenwood seems like the logical favorite...Just a hunch though...
Again, my predictions and opinions are just that..Nothing is ever certain until the 2 guys are announced. The 5 voters are going to debate and discuss who they want to select. It could be any 2 from the final 15, simply because most, if not all, are deserving...
I've said many times in the past Tommy Nobis and Mick Tingelhoff are the top senior candidates if I were voting...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I wonder what it would take to get you on the selectors board....
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
My dream is to work at the HOF after I retire from the military in 2012...This is actually a realistic possibility because I'm friends with someone who already works there as a paid employee...They also have a volunteer program that you can apply for, where your duties consist of leading walking tours through the HOF. Good way to get your foot in the door, and for me I won't particularly have to have a payng job when I retire so as long as the wife doesnt mind living in Ohio, its something I am looking at.
Anyway, I still don't have eyes on the list..BUT, I did get an e-mail yesterday evening that confirms most of the usual, every year candidates are also on the list. No glaring omissions of guys who are on the final list every year. Based on that, it should mean these players are on it..
Bob Hayes
Chuck Howley
Dave Robinson
Jim Marshall
LC Greenwood
Tommy Nobis
Floyd Little
Mick Tingelhoff
The same e-mail also mentions specifically that "a couple" of QBs are also on this list.. John Hadl and John Brodie were on it last year, Charlie Conerly has made the list in the past, but I think the 2 are Hadl and Brodie...
That would make 10 of the 15+ on the list...In the mailing the HOF sent out, they requested that the list remains private. One of the voters (Ira Miller) actually had his vote pulled because of spilling to much info last year. So the voters are being fairly protective this year...It will come out eventually though, at worst it will be after the 2 are selected. I still don;t understand why the Senior vote is so private when the modern cutdowns are publicly announced. The reason I was given is that since the Senior voting pool is so small (only 9 of them) they don't want to be inundated with e-mails and calls from fans wanting them to put in their favorite candidates. This does happen with modern candidates, but its spread over 40+ voters and not centralized to 9 of them.
Anyway, I don't think we will have any "surprise" selections this year like we did last time...The 5 guys going are fairly solid and I think they will pick amongst the most popular candidates so they can ensure both gain election in Feb.
Other than those mentioned above, the other "popular" candidates are Jerry Kramer, Claude Humphrey, Otis Taylor, Lee Roy Jordan and Cliff Harris. The will NOT select 2 Cowboys players in the same year though, so unless Bob Hayes gets bumped the other Cowboys guys won't get picked. Personally I think Gradishar will be on this list as well.
So, the UNOFFICIAL list I think we will see these 15 players:
Bob Hayes
Chuck Howley
Dave Robinson
Jim Marshall
LC Greenwood
Tommy Nobis
Floyd Little
Mick Tingelhoff
John Hadl
John Brodie
Claude Humphrey
Jerry Kramer
Randy Gradishar
Cliff Harris
Lee Roy Jordan
Could be some others (more than 15) and a few of these are guesses. We'll see how close I am once we see the OFFICIAL list.
Jason
Edited to add: I think if John Brodie and or Al Wistert on this semifinal list, those are the 2 we will need to vote on for addition to the Future HOF Senior set. Every other guy who's ever been a semifinalist at least 2 times is already in the set. The only others guys who have ever been a semifinalist yet are not on our set: Ed Sprinkle, Pete Retzlaff and Marshall Goldberg..So keep an eye on those guys if they make the semi's, we should vote on their addition as well...I have some others Seniors i will throw into the voting for various reasons, but as always we will go with the consensus on who we want added.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"""Wednesday August 22, 2007 11:11 PM
Alright, more info to pass along..
--Almost definitively at least one of the selections, if not both, is going to be a defensive player.
--The biggest logjam (obviously) is at LB.
--There is a push (I assume because of the Mike Vick issue) to get one of the 2 deserving Atlanta Falcons in this year.
Tommy Nobis fits all 3 of the above listed items, I'm going to be very surprised if he isn't one of the selections this time.
The 2nd spot seems more up for grabs. Both Howley and Hayes got high reviews. Kramer could actually leapfrog Tinglehoff and get in. I thought Goldberg and Wistert would really shock me, but these are the 2 guys have been waiting the longest . A couple of the 5 Senior committee guys making the selections in Canton tomorrow are the oldest of the old school and are the same ones who pushed to elect Friedman and Pollard a couple of years back.
Not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but only 5 of the 9 Senior Committee members actually go to Canton every year to select the final 2. Its done on a rotating basis, so the same voters don't go every year. Well this year would not surprise me to see either of the 2 WAY BACK players get in.""
Again, I will stick with my post above as to my predictions for this year and the following:
-Fairly confident that Bob Hayes will be one of the choices and will get elected this time..I was told "If Art Monk is in, Bob Hayes has to be there because he changed the way defenses played."
-Greenwood is really just a hunch. Based on the 2 HOFers who will be meeting with the Senior committee I have to think it is almost certainly a D-Lineman from the 60s-70s, and Greenwood, Jim Marshall and Claude Humphrey are the ones who fit that bill. I would just find it hard to believe that they could vote Humphrey in OVER "Mr. Falcon" Tommy Nobis t0 be the first Atlanta player enshrined. BUT, certainly doesn't mean they won't..lol..Wouldn't surprise me if Jim Marshall is picked though..With Cris Carter a lock for 2009 and Randall McDaniel a strong contender, they could easily choose to do the multiple players from one team thing again like they did with the Redskins this year...Tingelhoff is one of my favorites, but not likely this time IMO.
-2nd possibility based on the guest speakers is maybe a late 60's early 70's QB...This would be between Hadl and Brodie, but can they really overlook the defense guys again to put in a WR and a QB? If Bob Hayes ISN'T one of the 2 selection, I think it will be one of these QB's that trumps him somehow...
-Longest of longshots that a pre-modern player is picked this year. Based on the 5 going to Canton, it would be shock of the century if any of the old timers are picked this year...Not even sure which (if any) of them made the semi-list, but it won't matter..It will be 2 modern era players.
-Lastly, a couple of wildcards who, for various reasons, wouldn't surprise me if they are sleected...Jerry Kramer, Randy Gradishar, and Tommy Nobis...Anyone else with the exception of the few mentioned above will really surprise me.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country
1 1 14031902 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1974 TOPPS 183 JOE DeLAMIELLEURE Card US
2 1 14031903 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1979 TOPPS 411 DONNIE SHELL Card US
Total Items: 2
Date Received: 8/18/2008
Dave, You still waiting on yours?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Bob Hayes
Claude Humphrey
Should be announced ot the public in the next couple of hours..
Not bad predictions, huh???lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Anyone have an extra 8?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Needless to say, it was sold about an hour ago for double that...lol
I wonder what a Bob Hayes 8 would sell for in the next few days?? $500?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hayes, Humphrey named 2009 senior candidates
August 27, 2008
Posted: 1:40 p.m. ET | Updated: 1:56 p.m. ET
Wide receiver Bob Hayes and defensive end Claude Humphrey have been selected by the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Seniors Committee as finalists for election into the Hall of Fame with the Class of 2009.
Hayes and Humphrey will join 15 still-to-be-named modern-era candidates on the list of finalists from which the Class of 2009 will be selected. The Hall of Fame selection meeting will be held on January 31, 2009, the day before Super Bowl XLIII in Tampa, Florida. To be elected, Hayes and Humphrey must each receive the same 80 percent voting support that is required of all finalists. The Hall’s Board of Selectors can elect a maximum of two senior candidates and five modern-era candidates for a class no smaller than four or larger than seven during next January’s meeting.
Both of the senior nominees have been finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in the past. Hayes was the seniors committee’s candidate in 2004 while Humphrey was a modern-era finalist three times (2003, 2005 and 2006).
Hayes, who earned the label “World’s Fastest Human” during his gold medal-winning performances in track during the 1964 Summer Olympics, took the NFL by storm upon joining the Dallas Cowboys a year later. As a rookie, Hayes led the NFL in 1965 with a 21.8 yards per catch average and scored a league-best 12 touchdown receptions. He recorded 1,000-yard seasons in both of his first two years in the NFL.
A three-time All-NFL pick, Hayes amassed 371 career receptions for 7,414 yards and 71 touchdowns during his 11-season career with the Cowboys (1965-1974) and the San Francisco 49ers (1975). He also returned 104 punts for 1,158 yards and three touchdowns; and had 23 kickoff returns for 581 yards.
Hayes, who passed away on September 18, 2002, played in six NFL/NFC championship games and started in two Super Bowls.
Humphrey was selected as the third player overall in the 1968 draft by the Falcons and had an immediate impact in the NFL. Named the NFL’s Defensive Rookie of the Year, Humphrey quickly developed a reputation as one of the best pass rushers in football.
Although the sack did not become an official statistic until 1982, Humphrey is unofficially credited as having 122 career sacks during his career with the Falcons (1968-1978) and Philadelphia Eagles (1979-1981).
He was named first team All-Pro in 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1977. A six-time Pro Bowl selection, Humphrey battled back from a potential career-ending knee injury that forced him to miss the entire 1975 season. He responded by recording a career-high 15 sacks in 1976.
Humphrey capped his career with three final seasons in Philadelphia. In 1980, he led the Eagles with a club-high 14.5 sacks as the Eagles won the NFC championship to earn a berth in Super Bowl XV.
The Class of 2009 will be formally inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame during the enshrinement ceremony on August 8 at Canton’s Fawcett Stadium.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say..........
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark >>
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
All I can say is that he was certainly a GREAT offensive lineman. Anyone saying differently never watched him play...Secondly, for whatever issues Upshaw had the past few years while serving as the NFLPA President (and there were many), the record speaks for itself. Look at player salaries before his tenure and now after, the guy made a difference plain and simple.
That position (really anyone who serves as the head of a union) arguing, stalemates, disagreements..That's part of the job description...
It's a shame he couldn't solve every problem, but he certainly solved his share. Maybe the next guy can solve these other issues, but always know that solving one, will create 3 others...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark >>
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
All I can say is that he was certainly a GREAT offensive lineman. Anyone saying differently never watched him play...Secondly, for whatever issues Upshaw had the past few years while serving as the NFLPA President (and there were many), the record speaks for itself. Look at player salaries before his tenure and now after, the guy made a difference plain and simple.
That position (really anyone who serves as the head of a union) arguing, stalemates, disagreements..That's part of the job description...
It's a shame he couldn't solve every problem, but he certainly solved his share. Maybe the next guy can solve these other issues, but always know that solving one, will create 3 others...
Jason >>
Yeah, I suppose a little harsh...but absolutely the truth. They would get together to discuss the previous contract and Gene would be cussing and yelling, and nobody had the balls to tell him. Gene took on the stand of screw the players that could not afford to eat or pay for medicine from NFL related injuries. In fact, he would make the player go to 6-7 doctors to declare it was NFL related....and then still deny the guy.
Yes, they do have more then before Gene, but show me one sport where players don't get more now then they did in the 70s and 80s.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>
<< <i>I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am amazed at all the non stop Gene Upshaw was great on ESPN and ESPN2 this last week. Upshaw protected the pocketbooks of owners, while watching his fellow players not be able to afford medicine, not a hero in my book. Rather a traitor who turned on his own for a paycheck. I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate. Upshaw would yell and cuss and few would challenge him.
Mark >>
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
All I can say is that he was certainly a GREAT offensive lineman. Anyone saying differently never watched him play...Secondly, for whatever issues Upshaw had the past few years while serving as the NFLPA President (and there were many), the record speaks for itself. Look at player salaries before his tenure and now after, the guy made a difference plain and simple.
That position (really anyone who serves as the head of a union) arguing, stalemates, disagreements..That's part of the job description...
It's a shame he couldn't solve every problem, but he certainly solved his share. Maybe the next guy can solve these other issues, but always know that solving one, will create 3 others...
Jason >>
Yeah, I suppose a little harsh...but absolutely the truth. They would get together to discuss the previous contract and Gene would be cussing and yelling, and nobody had the balls to tell him. Gene took on the stand of screw the players that could not afford to eat or pay for medicine from NFL related injuries. In fact, he would make the player go to 6-7 doctors to declare it was NFL related....and then still deny the guy.
Yes, they do have more then before Gene, but show me one sport where players don't get more now then they did in the 70s and 80s.
Mark >>
Mark, I think you are simplifying the situation. There is ALOT more that goes into retro-actively applying full health benefits to all former players. It's something that has been in the works and in discussion for some time now. I agree with you, it is an important issue, but you are talking a ton of cash that will have to come from somewhere. Much like universal healthcare proposed by the democrats right now. That still hasn't been passed either because if all the money it would require has to come from somewhere. As far as the NFL goes, the owners NOR the players want to give up the cash to support it.
Eventually they will find a happy medium, but hanging that entire issue on Gene Upshaw is very shortsighted IMO.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Will be interesting to see who they blame with Upshaw gone...As you say, should be a clear path to getting an agreement now right?? Willing to bet it still doesn't get done in the next year?
First order of business will be to get an agreement in place that prevents a work stoppage in a couple of years and causes the salary cap to disappear..Then it will be just like MLB with the Cowboys and Redskins and the big market teams signing all the expensive FAs..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Will be interesting to see who they blame with Upshaw gone...As you say, should be a clear path to getting an agreement now right?? Willing to bet it still doesn't get done in the next year?
First order of business will be to get an agreement in place that prevents a work stoppage in a couple of years and causes the salary cap to disappear..Then it will be just like MLB with the Cowboys and Redskins and the big market teams signing all the expensive FAs..
Jason >>
If you do not put words in my mouth Jason, I will do you the favor of not putting words in your mouth.
Nowhere did I say there would be clear path now. I just stated that when they got together, which they did multiple times on this issue, Gene would literally be yelling and cussing. It is my belief, and I don't see how anyone with inside knowledge such as yourself could deny, is that they were getting nowhere with Gene. How many times have you got into a cussing match and solved anything?
Ditka and others presented the players association with undeniable evidence of players with no money and injuries verified by multiple doctors as being NFL related. Gene basically told them to go screw themselves.
Now I see a salary cap that guarantees the owners will make billions this next year. I know when I go to the Chief games, I end up shelling out about $100, along with 50,000 other people, and the Chiefs air the game on TV for several million. The money is there and it was there. NFL is the fastest growing sport. The top teams can do a billion in merchandise sales.
Here is a pre-death quote by Ditka....who with others, has raised money to help out his fellow players, that Gene put threw multiple hoops...and then ignored.
"They're the people who are irresponsible," Ditka said of Upshaw and his fellow union leaders. "Nobody is less deserving of his position because he has no comprehension of what it means to give back to the game. He's a fraud."
and...
"[Upshaw is] taking loans from the Players Association which are illegal,'' Ditka said. ''You cannot take any loan which [is] over $4,000 from the union." ''He's on the books for over [a] $100,000 loan, which is really a criminal offense.''
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Great job on the prediction - thank god I have a PSA 7 Hayes and PSA 8 Humphrey. I love the future HOF sets...they really got me focused on picking up rc's of players that I otherwise wouldn't have.
My opinion on Upshaw - he definately could have done better when it comes to providing benefits to the older players. He inherited a benefit/pension system whereby older players got a much smaller piece of the pie than the modern players. What's exascerbated the problem is the massive increase in salaries over the past 15 years. For example, when Stan Jones retired after the 63 season he was making $19k. If his pension was based upon his highest salary, then his pension would be 25% (for sake of argument) x $19k = $4750 or c. $400 per month - possibly indexed for inflation. Of course this looks a pittance when compared to modern salaries, however the pension system probably didn't take into account the massive salary increases. The same is probably true of their health care costs - just look at the price inflation for heath care premiums over the past 10 to 20 years...it's sick.
You provided a great analogy to the Universal Heath Care program espoused by Mr. Obama. It's a great idea, however noone is willing to write a check to provide the necessary funding.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jason,
Great job on the prediction - thank god I have a PSA 7 Hayes and PSA 8 Humphrey. I love the future HOF sets...they really got me focused on picking up rc's of players that I otherwise wouldn't have.
My opinion on Upshaw - he definately could have done better when it comes to providing benefits to the older players. He inherited a benefit/pension system whereby older players got a much smaller piece of the pie than the modern players. What's exascerbated the problem is the massive increase in salaries over the past 15 years. For example, when Stan Jones retired after the 63 season he was making $19k. If his pension was based upon his highest salary, then his pension would be 25% (for sake of argument) x $19k = $4750 or c. $400 per month - possibly indexed for inflation. Of course this looks a pittance when compared to modern salaries, however the pension system probably didn't take into account the massive salary increases. The same is probably true of their health care costs - just look at the price inflation for heath care premiums over the past 10 to 20 years...it's sick.
You provided a great analogy to the Universal Heath Care program espoused by Mr. Obama. It's a great idea, however noone is willing to write a check to provide the necessary funding.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Very well stated Greg.
Mark, my apologies. While you didn't say it, but you certainly implied it with this statement:
"I was glad to see his passing, cause maybe now the players association and the players can come to an agreement, with Upshaw it was stalemate."
I'm not sure where you get your information from or why you think Gene Upshaw controled everything that had to do with helping the older players with health issues, but just because Upshaw got into a pissing match in a meeting doesn;t mean he was the one and only guy holding up the process of getting a retro-active healthcare system approved.
It's professional football, it's about the money. The last collective bargaining agreement that was approved was so in favor of the players, many of the small market teams will have trouble turning a profit the next few years. 57% of the total football revenue goes to the ACTIVE players. So who's gonna pay for all the old timers? Why shouldn't the players be expected to shoulder that expense to take care of their own? Upshaw's disagreement was that he wanted the owners to bear most of that burden and the owners want the players to shoulder most of it. As the NFLPA rep, should Upshaw have said, sure, the players will pay for it all..I mean I don't hear many active players saying they would take a 10% paycut across the board to fund ex-players in need of assistance...
Again, I understand where you are coming from to a point. But you've either got mis-information or you have bought into some of the political retoric from the ex-players side without exploring the reasons that it hasn;t been approved yet.
My question to you, what will your opnion be if this issue still isn't resolved a year from now..Or 2 years from now?? Still Upshaw's fault for not agreeing that all active players take a paycut in order to fund the program?
Edited to add:
Much like any other contract negotiation, the NFLPA and the owners need to find a middle ground to get something done. Not just on this issue, but all the other issues of disagreement they currently have. Not sure if you are aware, but as of right now, we are looking at an NFL work stoppage in 2011. It may also mean the end to the salary cap. If a work stoppage happens NO ONE is getting paid...If the salary cap goes away, some cities are going to lose their teams.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
i respect your opinion a lot Jason. I do not know your occupation, but it appears you are a sports writer...or connected fairly close to the field. I have over 100 published articles myself, mostly scientific related, although I did some sport ghost writing for a few years. They usually tore up my article and it never appeared as I wrote it....enough that I usually did not feel it was my article....but it was what it was...and it paid the bills for a short time. I mention all this because I feel I can relate to you to some degree. So I hope we can agree to disagree if it should come to that.
I met Upshaw about 10 years ago. He was very pleasant, and presented himself well. I also think he was a great player and I believe he should be a HOF member. In fact, I use to produce postcards and almost entered a business agreement with him. I never could get a marque player to sign up though, as they all wanted $50,000 plus, so it never happened.
I also understand that in that position, you will pretty much just create enemies, nor do I know the NFL-Player Association solution in all of this.
However, none of that changes my opinion he was a traitor.
So to answer your question.
What happens after Gene, does not change the past. If you take a job of position on the other side of the fence of where you where, and passionately defend your position against those you were once one of to the manner Gene did, yes that makes you a traitor.
The webster online dictionary defines traitor as:
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty 2 : one who commits treason
Gene Upshaw 100% fits the first definition...IMO. He betrayed the trust of what use to be his fellow players and failed in obligation and duty to them, while his own wallet got fat.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>
i respect your opinion a lot Jason. I do not know your occupation, but it appears you are a sports writer...or connected fairly close to the field. I have over 100 published articles myself, mostly scientific related, although I did some sport ghost writing for a few years. They usually tore up my article and it never appeared as I wrote it....enough that I usually did not feel it was my article....but it was what it was...and it paid the bills for a short time. I mention all this because I feel I can relate to you to some degree. So I hope we can agree to disagree if it should come to that.
I met Upshaw about 10 years ago. He was very pleasant, and presented himself well. I also think he was a great player and I believe he should be a HOF member. In fact, I use to produce postcards and almost entered a business agreement with him. I never could get a marque player to sign up though, as they all wanted $50,000 plus, so it never happened.
I also understand that in that position, you will pretty much just create enemies, nor do I know the NFL-Player Association solution in all of this.
However, none of that changes my opinion he was a traitor.
So to answer your question.
What happens after Gene, does not change the past. If you take a job of position on the other side of the fence of where you where, and passionately defend your position against those you were once one of to the manner Gene did, yes that makes you a traitor.
The webster online dictionary defines traitor as:
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty 2 : one who commits treason
Gene Upshaw 100% fits the first definition...IMO. He betrayed the trust of what use to be his fellow players and failed in obligation and duty to them, while his own wallet got fat. >>
Absolutely Mark...I agree to disagree pretty often in life..lol
Still not sure how it makes him a traitor. He was the NFLPA President and his #1 job description was to ensure active NFL players get the most money they can possibly get. Could he have done more to push the issue with the owners? Maybe..Maybe that's the negative and/or reason you think he was a traitor. But one guy can only do so much. If the owners are telling him they want the NFLPA to fund it, and the NFLPA is saying they want the owners to fund it Upshaw's only job in that debate is to defend the stance of the players. Many players felt he didn't represent them well, others thought he did great. It's a political/elected position and from everything I know of this particular issue, Upshaw was made out to be the fall guy for it. The owners looked to Gene to push the players to fund it..The players looked to Gene to get the owners to fund it..This is a fundamental dispute the takes place in MANY different inductries, not just professional football.
I stand behind my opinion in that Upshaw left the players union in 1000x better position than it was in when he took over at the NFLPA Pres. No, he didn't solve everything unfortunately. But can you can show me ONE President of any company (or government) that solved every issue under his stead?
I hope you're right. I hope whoever the next union leader is, he can be the guy who fixes the CBA and fixes player healthcare issues and whatever other pending items they have right now. Once those are fixed, he'll have 5 new things to solve that we don't even know anything about at this point...lol..Just the nature of business.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
i respect your opinion a lot Jason. I do not know your occupation, but it appears you are a sports writer...or connected fairly close to the field.
>>
BTW, thanks for thinking so highly, but I'm no sportswriter...Just an Army Infantry guy for the past 16 years...
Being a football historian first and foremost (my #1 hobby, even before cards) for the last 28 years I have made quite a few contacts in the field. Even lucky enough to call a couple of HOF voters friends.
5 years from now when I retire and get a job at the Pro Football HOF I'll be the first to take you to the HOF research library so you can review the "minutes" annotated for some of the owners meetings with the NFLPA during Upshaw's time. Maybe will give you a different perspective.
Really, unless you were in the room for all those discussions ( I wasn't either) we are really just going off hearsay...The "minutes" are always recorded though, and serve as a transcript of exactly who said what and whith whom the true issues reside.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sounds like a good time to sell or do you guys think it would be wiser to hold off until/if he is actually voted in?
I'm officially in the market for a nice Hayes 8.
He is long overdue.
A nice bob hayes s very hard to find...
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets