Ha! It's impossible to steal anything from you Jay. You command top dollar! Now go scan my cards.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I have an extra Humphrey. I have a 7, but I have a 7.5 in the mail that just popped a couple of days ago. Sounds like a good time to sell or do you guys think it would be wiser to hold off until/if he is actually voted in? >>
Vince, Just my opinion but I would sell now. Last year, I was sitting on a PSA 7 GOldberg and put it on so that it ended a few days after the selections. I was offered 3 times what it sold for before it hit ebay but I took a gamble.........and lost. I know for a fact that there are several of us (me included) that will be salivating over the next Humphrey to hit ebay.
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Mark, I understand the post, but saying that you are glad that someone passed away just doesnt sit right with me. I have never in my life become "glad" after someone passed away no matter what i thought of them. When Stover tried to get Upshaw booted last year, I was fine with that, because I wasnt a big Upshaw fan as PA pres either. We just have different opinions on the subject that I would rather not argue about....... Dave
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Mark, I understand the post, but saying that you are glad that someone passed away just doesnt sit right with me. I have never in my life become "glad" after someone passed away no matter what i thought of them. When Stover tried to get Upshaw booted last year, I was fine with that, because I wasnt a big Upshaw fan as PA pres either. We just have different opinions on the subject that I would rather not argue about....... Dave >>
<< <i>
<< <i><< I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark >>
Mark, I understand the post, but saying that you are glad that someone passed away just doesnt sit right with me. I have never in my life become "glad" after someone passed away no matter what i thought of them. When Stover tried to get Upshaw booted last year, I was fine with that, because I wasnt a big Upshaw fan as PA pres either. We just have different opinions on the subject that I would rather not argue about....... Dave >>
Perhaps I am more on the players side because of my own medical history. I got hospitalized right when I turned 18 with no insurance. A couple years later I filed bankruptcy so I could go to college and all of that. Well, some of the bills were not on record when I filed bankruptcy. I was garnished 50% of my wages for almost 12 years....then being single, I got taxed about 27%. I can only imagine some of the players that went through the many hoops Gene put in front of them, only to be turned away. I feel I got screwed, but at least I got help. I can also imagine their anger as they continued to hear about the record network fees, while being told $400 is enough for your $2000 monthly medical bills. Am I saying it is all Gene's fault? Absolutely not. But when you take a title, like President, you are accepting responsibility. When you are the president and make yourself the key negotiator, and use your position to create obstacles, like sending players to multiple doctors, you are shouldering a lot of responsibility....credit and when due, blame.
The only person I saw give fair commentary is John Madden. Upshaw use to be an assistant coach under Madden from what Madden was saying (I never knew that). Madden did praise Gene on several things. Like Madden noted how he would do his team talk and it would go on and on (Madden is like that), and when he was done, Upshaw would always say something and back what Madden said. But Madden also noted his problems...which interesting, he seemed to think that Upshaw was always yelling and cussing, and that it was a good thing. That he was spirited.
So anyway, if you guys allow me I will take back that statement and say, "I am glad he is no longer in that position."
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i> But Madden also noted his problems...which interesting, he seemed to think that Upshaw was always yelling and cussing, and that it was a good thing. That he was spirited.
Mark >>
Who cares if he yelled and cussed??? He was a pro football player not a school teacher. Look, I'm a military guy. Not only that i'm an Infantry guy....a grunt...
The game of football is very similar to what I do for a living. It's very tough physically and mentally. We have teams, squads, platoons..We all have to work together to get things done. We are often put in life altering situations and you have to know that the guy next to you is going to do the right thing, and you want to know that same guy is looking out for you making sure you are doing the right thing. Yelling and cussing in these lines of work is a GIVEN. It is a necessary evil to make sure your point is being made. The last thing i want is some bleeding heart liberal fighting beside me who's afraid to raise his voice or say a bad word. It's a violent job, just like football is a violent sport..That kind of thing comes with the territory..
Does that mean it has a place in the negotiating room? Absolutely not..Does it mean Upshaw yelled and cussed over every issue in every meeting or negotiation? Absolutely not...And if you have some type of evidence that he did so, i'd LOVE to see/hear it.
I guess I just see Upshaw's "side" in this..He was attacked by MANY ex-players over this issue with probably many of the same arguments you are using. I'm sure Upshaw got sick of being called a traitor and being made the scapegoat over an issue in which his hands were tied. If it were me, I would get pissy too...
Unfortunately, for every guy that is REALLY hurt and TRULY needs serious medical attention, there are 10 other guys trying to milk the system. I see it every day in the military...So many guys that have been to Iraq and Afganistan who come back to the states and blame all of their problems (problems that they had even BEFORE they went overseas) on PTSD or because they were injured (but have since recovered)...It's the whole "one bad apple spoils the bunch", and I would venture to guess the NFL has run into the same thing.
This is not an excuse though. The NFL as a whole needs to find a fix for this. Look around this country, there are MILLIONS of people who do not have lifetime medical care. You hear the "Universal Health Care" plan thrown around yet no one wants to pay for it...I know I don't..I earned mine by serving my country, just like many others who earned good health care by going to college, getting a good job, etc...Again, Upshaw was in a position as a union Pres, but you're giving him WAY too much credit assuming he had the power to make changes, laws, whatever by himself. If you want to blame him, you should also blame the owners, the current players and even the ex-players for not finding a way to get it fixed.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"For these guys to say what they get is peanuts, they're being ungrateful," said Upshaw.
As President (actually executive director), Upshaw had a contract for $24 million in salary over six years. Upshaw also used his position to take an illegal $100,000 plus loan from the union. I don't know what he made signing autographs (which he did do for free in the mail), typical signing fees are $30-50,000 for two hours, but Upshaw's wallet got fat in his position.
So I didn't find it strange Upshaw did not see a problem. It is kind of like a current presidential candidate not seeing a housing crisis....and not even knowing how many homes he owned.
"Thirteen Hall of Famers interviewed by The Observer expressed concern that the NFL and the league players association, headed by Upshaw, don't do enough to help former players, especially pioneers of the game suffering crippling health and financial difficulties. "It's the deep, dark secret nobody wants to talk about," said Howie Long, a former Raiders defensive lineman who's now a studio analyst for Fox Sports."
"When I went to the Hall of Fame in 2000 and was inducted, it was a travesty the kind of carnage I saw out of these guys who were in their 50s and 60s, who had defined and in many ways laid the foundation for the NFL being what it is today," Long said.
"Many of them could barely rub two nickels together to get to Canton. Many of them couldn't afford to have their knee replaced or had fallen through whatever imaginary net there is from an economic standpoint. Not enough is being done."
Long said it's the dual responsibility of the league and the players association to fix the problem.
Other Hall of Famers say they feel neglected and abandoned by Upshaw.
"We figure all we have to do is go to my man," said former Baltimore Colts running back Lenny Moore. "He's the head of the NFL Players Association. He's the guy who ought to pry the door open for us."
Said ex-Houston Oilers defensive end Elvin Bethea: "The union doesn't care about us. You're a forgotten child."
Now Jason you keep mentioning they are better off now as a defense, and I will completely agree. But Upshaw, held that position for over 20 years. Show me one major sport where players are not better now then they were 20 years ago. Without researching, I would bet that even soccer players (ignoring the Beck contract) make more then they did 20 years ago. There is not even many non-sport fields where the employee is not better off. This is of course not figuring in cost of living and increasing cost of medical bills. I don't think any player who can't afford to replace his knee or the like, feels he is better off now.
Beside thinking the old players who could not afford medial were ungrateful, what else did Upshaw think?
"They (retirees) say they don't have anybody in the (bargaining) room. Well, they don't and they never will. I'm the only one in that room. They're not in the bargaining unit. They don't even have a vote."
It is a shame Upshaw was not that voice for them, but rather chose fought them. And I will note again, blame is not completely on Upshaw. But as Executive Director, key negotiator and according to Upshaw "the only one in that (bargaining) room", he earns a good share of the pie.....of the successes...and failures.
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Mark, as you said before, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Really isn't much more to say on it from my perspective. There are many issues contained within our discussion that we actually DO agree on. But the main point being that you think Upshaw is mainly to blame for the plight of the ex-players is something I can not buy into. I feel the same when I hear people bash President Bush as THE guy responsible for ALL the current problems in the country. People that actually believe a President of any large organization is responsible for solving all of it's problems are simply shortsighted and ill-informed..Yes they play a part, but typically MANY MANY MANY other factors and individuals are involved in the equations.
I hope you're right though. I hope whoever the new guy is can be the one to bridge the gap between the owners and current players and find a way to get the old timers taken care of. It's way overdue, and guys are passing away in bad health without a penny to their names.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Mark, as you said before, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Really isn't much more to say on it from my perspective. There are many issues contained within our discussion that we actually DO agree on. But the main point being that you think Upshaw is mainly to blame for the plight of the ex-players is something I can not buy into. I feel the same when I hear people bash President Bush as THE guy responsible for ALL the current problems in the country. People that actually believe a President of any large organization is responsible for solving all of it's problems are simply shortsighted and ill-informed..Yes they play a part, but typically MANY MANY MANY other factors and individuals are involved in the equations.
I hope you're right though. I hope whoever the new guy is can be the one to bridge the gap between the owners and current players and find a way to get the old timers taken care of. It's way overdue, and guys are passing away in bad health without a penny to their names.
Jason >>
"I hope whoever the new guy is can be the one to bridge the gap between the owners and current players and find a way to get the old timers taken care of. It's way overdue, and guys are passing away in bad health without a penny to their names."
I hope so also.
I interviewed a dozen or so HOF'ers, mostly Colts, concerning Weeb Ewbank about 10-12 years ago. Got friendly with several including Lenny Moore. Moore was in terrible health the last 5-10 years of his life and ended up living with his son. He called me 5-6 times at least as he loved to talk about Weeb and the Colts. I enjoyed our conversations and considered him a friend, more then a contact as he originally was.
Anyway, since you are the resident football history guy, if you would like, I will dig through my stuff and find the interviews, they are on cassette tape, and if you would like them, you can have them. They will likely need transcribed or transferred to CD in the next 5-10 years so they do not get loss. I can't remember who all I interviewed, I do remember Art Donovan, Raymond Berry, Jim Parker, beside Moore. As well as a few non-hof'ers such as Matte and Weeb's wife and daughter.
You mentioned a few messages back wanting to work at the HOF library. I donated a bunch of stuff to them from the Ewbank estate...and never got a thank you. As I have not worked on this project in so long it is likely best to pass them along to someone who would curate them better, and I feel you are a good candidate.
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Jason, are your plans "really" to move to Ohio and work at the HOF? If so, that would be awesome............ >>
It's something I've been kicking around for awhile, and i'm very serious about it. After 20 years of serving, I really want to be able to continue doing something I really love rather than joining the typical workforce routine. Financially I will be in a position that I could live off my investment interest and retirement pay, so I could easily do one of the available volunteer jobs at the HOF..At least to start out anyway...Trying to get the wife on board is another matter..lol..Myself and my family are from Florida originally, and we tend to like WARM weather locations as well..
Mark, That would be awesome. I actually have a computer program and cable that allows me to do that. I've done it in the past for music cassettes. I can also contact a buddy of mine who works full-time at the HOF and ensure these get where they belong.
The HOF archives/library is just one piece of the pie there. It's only open by appointment, so there is no full-time staffer and it isn't open everyday. The fact that you didn't get a thank you pretty much speaks to the fact that it is a non-profit organization and like most of them, doesn't have a large budget towards salaries. They've been doing quite well with donations the past few years though and from what I've heard have some outstanding upgrades in the works.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, that is a really good point about the Hall being a non-profit. The HOF is indeed a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which means donations to the Hall can be tax deductible. Any of you big boys who have heirs that don't really have any interest in keeping your collections after you die should consider setting up a Charitable Remainder Trust and leave your cards to the Hall after you die. You can get a nice fat deduction on your current taxes (which will be nice if Obama wins), get to enjoy the cards while you're alive and when you die the Hall gets a stellar collection. If you want to get really fancy you can use the money you save on your taxes to purchase a life insurance policy through an irrevocable life insurance trust and leave it to your heirs to replace the value of the collection that goes to the HOF. That way, your heirs still get their $$$, the Hall gets your collection and the feds get nothing.
1955 Bowman Dick Stanfel PSA 6 - $25 obo (this is the nicest PSA 6 I have ever seen - it's a virtual lock for a PSA 7 if resubmitted) 1996 SP Marvin Harrison PSA 9 - $25 obo
Please PM or e-mail me at montooth13 at yahoo.com.
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Now that we know who the senior finalists are, could someone tell me if there are any first ballot locks for next year, is Bruce smith up? >>
Here are the top modern candidates for this year:
Bruce Smith Rod Woodson Cris Carter Shannon Sharpe Bob Kuechenberg Randall McDaniel Derrick Thomas Richard Dent John Randle Ken Stabler Russ Grimm Andre Reed Dermontti Dawson Ray Guy Lester Hayes
Smith and Woodson are the only "locks" IMO...I'd give Carter a 95%...After that, Shannon Sharpe and John Randle are on their first ballot, while Bob Kuechenberg and Ken Stabler are on their last...
My predictions as of right now for the Class of 2009 are:
Bruce Smith Rod Woodson Cris Carter Shannon Sharpe Bob Kuechenberg Bob Hayes Claude Humphrey
As stated above, Smith and Woodson are 100% locks. I don't see any way Carter gets passed over again. Also, both senior candidates will get the nod this time.
The 2 question marks are Sharpe and Kuechenberg. Kuechenberg will be a close call between him and Randall McDaniel. With Carter going as a Viking, plus the fact it is Kuechenberg's last shot as a modern candidate I think he slips in finally. On Sharpe, I initially though Derrick Thomas would go in the spot. But with Bruce Smith and now Claude Humphrey going in as pass rushers, I see D.T. getting pushed back again.
Pretty early to make those predictions though, I haven't heard any of the voters even talking about it yet..Usually won't until the semi-finalists and finalists are released..The nominees don't even come out until late Oct/Nov..lol
The above it based completely on my own opinion, and doesn't involve any type of info from the guys actually doing the voting...Unlike Bob Hayes which I posted he would be chosen as one of the senior guys back on 4 August.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Being from Chicago I'm pulling for Dent. Still burns my butt that Dean got in last year and he didn't. >>
With Bruce Smith and Humphrey going in, what are the chances another pass rusher is selected??? I'd say zero. Slots are tough to come by, I agree with you on Dean...He got in on the "Bob Hayes" clause that he changed the game as being the first pass rush specialist...I though he was easily the weakest selection from last year. Not only over Dent, but over Derrick Thomas??? Not if I was a voter...lol
Dent is close though. In fact, I'd bet he will be in the HOF no later than Class of 2011...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Your posts imply your belief that Humphrey will get the necessary votes on Super Bowl weekend. Do you think Hayes will get in as well, and are these predictions for the seniors based upon how you would vote or do they include input from your discussions with voters on how they feel about the candidates?
Your posts imply your belief that Humphrey will get the necessary votes on Super Bowl weekend. Do you think Hayes will get in as well, and are these predictions for the seniors based upon how you would vote or do they include input from your discussions with voters on how they feel about the candidates?
Jasen >>
Both will get the votes. The senior committee had a long discussion last year with the other non-senior committee Hall of Fame voters after Marshall Goldberg got nixed (rightfully so)..I wouldn't go so far as to call it a falling out, but the debate was heated. The outcome was the senior committee is going to focus on getting more of the "main stream" senior candidates elected rather than looking for extremely overlooked/forgotten players..
In the last 10 years, 15 players have been selected as Senior nominees...13 of those 15 are in the HOF, with the only 2 not getting the necessary votes being Bob Hayes in 2004 and Marshall Goldberg last year. The whole purpose of the senior committee is to get some of the guys elected who couldn't grab a spot during their modern eligibility. They've actually CHANGED the voting process to help the senior guys get in. The increased the senior nominees from one to two AND, the senior nominees can no longer steal a spot from a modern player. Under the new voting system, only 5 modern players can be elected in any given year, period. The 2 senior finalists are now voted on first and foremost. They can elect 0, 1, or 2, and it doesn't at all effect the modern candidates. In 2004, when Bob Hayes missed getting in, they used to mix the modern and senior finalists in the same debate. They also took all coaches and other non-players OFF the senior ballot...John Madden will be the last senior candidate coach..
Anyway, unless the senior committee chooses another Marshall Goldberg type player which I don't see happening again after last year, you can almost guarantee any senior selection will get the votes. If one or both of these candidates don't get in the HOF this year, I would venture to guess that they will do away with the senior committee altogether, or at best will totally change the process in which they pick the Senior players. Last year a couple of options were presented as future possibilities..One, is to include all the 40+ HOF voters in the senior selection process...The premise being that all of the 40+ would send in their ballots and the 2 candidates with the most votes would be inducted and would no longer require an additional 80% vote at the meeting in Feb. The second option would be to have all current HOF PLAYERS cast their votes for the senior selections and then include them as they do now as needing the 80% vote.
What is all boils down to is trust. The 9 member senior committee is supposed to be made up of long tenured, respected HOF voters...For the other 30+ voters deny their selections is to essentially say they do not trust their opinions. Needless to say, after the Goldberg debacle, a couple of the senior members were changed...
I'd be willing to bet my collection that both will get the votes this year and that is not based on my opinion at all.
In fact, I have my questions about Hayes being HOF caliber...I do think he changed the game and all, but I don't know that he did it any better than a few other speed guys of that era...Humphrey I have no doubts about..IMO, he's the Richard Dent of the 70's..Big guy, great pass rusher who was also just as strong against the run...Had he played for a big name team in a big market, he would have been in the HOF long ago. He's the kind of player the Senior committee was created to help get elected.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'd be willing to bet my collection that both will get the votes this year and that is not based on my opinion at all.
In fact, I have my questions about Hayes being HOF caliber...I do think he changed the game and all, but I don't know that he did it any better than a few other speed guys of that era...Humphrey I have no doubts about..IMO, he's the Richard Dent of the 70's..Big guy, great pass rusher who was also just as strong against the run...Had he played for a big name team in a big market, he would have been in the HOF long ago. He's the kind of player the Senior committee was created to help get elected.
Jason >>
Can I put a donut up against your collection?
I see Nobis in the same boat as Humphrey. Ironic that they were teammates.
I'm still in the 55/45 range on Hayes. Granted, he was the catalyst for the implementation of the zone defense, but there was still the novelty factor to his game. Not so much as Renaldo Nehemiah when he joined the 49ers, but I think you catch my drift. Sure, some great numbers, but...
I would love to see Claude get in with Tommy going in next year. But I'm guessing Howley or Jordan will get the nod before Nobis... BOOOOOO!
I would love to see Claude get in with Tommy going in next year. But I'm guessing Howley or Jordan will get the nod before Nobis... BOOOOOO! >>
Two Falcons in back-to-back years after 40 years without anyone? Not likely..
While i think Humphrey is a fine candidate, the thing I didn't like is that MY top guy Tommy Nobis is going to be pushed back a few years now. Looking at possibles for next year and guys I think won't be picked for various things I heard in the last month or so..My VERY EARLY predictions for 2010 are:
Jerry Kramer Randy Gradishar
I don't think they will put another WR or DL guy up...I also don't think they'll choose a Falcon or a Cowboy. Just historically, they tend to try and spread the wealthy so to speak....
This knocks out strong candidates like Greenwood, Nobis, Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, Otis Taylor, etc...
This is also assuming Bob Kuechenberg gets in this year..If he doesn't, he becomes a Senior candidate, and knowing that many of the voters who have really pushed for Kuechenberg's induction ARE ON THE SENIOR COMMITTEE, I think he would be the choice in his first year as a Senior. Much like Rayfield Wright a few years back...
My #2 guy in the senior pool is Mick Tingelhoff..If you've seen any footage of him (other than his Super Bowl games..lol) he was a dominant Center...IMO, the 2nd best Center in the game during the 60's behind Jim Otto of course. But Jerry Kramer started getting a decent push last year, and was close again this year. I think he has leapfrogged Tingelhoff as the top OL candidate in the senior pool.
Next year has got to be the year they break open the backlog of LBs..But again, IMO, the top 3 guys there are Nobis, Howley and Dave Robinson...But I doubt they'll choose a Falcon and Cowboy in consecutive years..And they would also NEVER choose 2 players from THE SAME TEAM in the same year (Kramer and Robinson)..Which leaves Randy Gradishar as the next best guy. He's certainly the top inside 3-4 LB candidate...To me, if Harry Carson is in, Randy Gradishar is most certainly deserving.
Based on the rotation of the senior voters though, I wouldn't be surprised to see another Cowboy selected in 2011...If an LB is picked for 2010, then I'd guess Cliff Harris might finally get his call to the hall...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My four modern picks, ignoring I have nothing to with the process would be...
Bruce Smith Cris Carter Derrick Thomas John Randle
I am preparing myself to be upset about Derrick Thomas again.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>My four modern picks, ignoring I have nothing to with the process would be...
Bruce Smith Cris Carter Derrick Thomas John Randle
I am preparing myself to be upset about Derrick Thomas again. >>
John Randle over Rod Woodson? WOW....
I agree with you on the others, but to me, Woodson is a slam dunk...Was there a more complete DB in the 1990's than Woodson? He could cover, he could hit..Before his knee injury in 1995, I think he was on pace to be possible THE BEST of all-time..Even after that, he came back as a super solid Safety and played at an All-Pro level..Lott was a better hitter, Deion was a better cover guy, but Woodson was the total package..
Randle will definitely get in, but I wouldn't call him a first ballot guy. He wasn't good enough against the run, and as a DT, that has to be factored in. I'd like to see Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent go in before Randle, and I suspect that will be the case. Randle will get in at some point, most likely before Warren Sapp who comes up in 2013...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent.
<< <i>I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent. >>
I'm with ya Scott. I definitely think Haley is way underrated. It's supposed to be largely about Super Bowl wins right?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>My four modern picks, ignoring I have nothing to with the process would be...
Bruce Smith Cris Carter Derrick Thomas John Randle
I am preparing myself to be upset about Derrick Thomas again. >>
John Randle over Rod Woodson? WOW....
I agree with you on the others, but to me, Woodson is a slam dunk...Was there a more complete DB in the 1990's than Woodson? He could cover, he could hit..Before his knee injury in 1995, I think he was on pace to be possible THE BEST of all-time..Even after that, he came back as a super solid Safety and played at an All-Pro level..Lott was a better hitter, Deion was a better cover guy, but Woodson was the total package..
Randle will definitely get in, but I wouldn't call him a first ballot guy. He wasn't good enough against the run, and as a DT, that has to be factored in. I'd like to see Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent go in before Randle, and I suspect that will be the case. Randle will get in at some point, most likely before Warren Sapp who comes up in 2013...
Jason >>
Woodson was a better player. But hey, that is my list. I like Randle more for his trash talking he use to do. Kind of your mamma like trash talking.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I know this whole they can't put too many players from the same position or same team in the same HOF class thing exists, and I think it really sucks. You put the best players in. Period. I don't care if they all played the same position. That shouldn't matter.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I know this whole they can't put too many players from the same position or same team in the same HOF class thing exists, and I think it really sucks. You put the best players in. Period. I don't care if they all played the same position. That shouldn't matter. >>
I agree..The problem is there are 44 different opinions in the voting room..Just as we have shown here in our discussions, one guys "best player" is not another guys "best player"...When it comes to 2 guys from the same position, what happens is that they get compared to each other. Lets take the Art Monk over Cris Carter thing from last year...While I think Carter was the better WR, there were others who still believed Art Monk was the better WR. These are voters who have been pushing Monk and his candidacy for the last 7-8 years. Then here comes Cris Carter, SHOULD be a slam dunk HOFer, and had Art Monk been inducted 5 years ago, WOULD have been one..With so many deserving players, how can a voter say, "Ok, I'm going to vote for the first, second AND third best pass rusher candidates and not put in THE best Offensive Line candidate?
When they cut the list diwn from 15 to 10 to 5, those final 5 guys need 36 out of the 44 votes to get elected. If you have 10 guys backing Monk who say they won't vote for Carter until Art Monk gets his due, then what do you do? Choose Monk and have him voted down? That helps no one..That just makes your HOF class smaller and makes next years selections even tougher.
It's almost impossible to compare players not only from different eras, but even more so from different positions..How do you compare a DE vs. a WR and determine who was the better player? They did entirely different things on the field..But when they are the same position its much easier to compare them....
As far as teams go, with the modern selections, I don't necessarily think it is a factor. They have and probably will continue to vote guys from the same teams in the same years, like Monk and Green from last year. It is the senior guys that tend to get bumped because of this. With so many viable senior candidates, most of which are essentially within the same talent level, it only makes sense to spread the wealth. And with only 5 guys trying to make the right picks, guys they think are the most deserving and have the best shot at getting elected they want to make sure they are not catering to one team or to one segment of voters. You have to remember 32 of the 44 voters represent the NFL franchises. When a Vikings guy comes up for election, his presentation is given to the HOF voters by that teams representative. This is the part that becomes political and also don;t agree with, but I also understand how each team and each franchise wants its all-time great players to be recognized as all-time NFL greats.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent. >>
Ignored? He's been a HOF semi-finalist the past 3 years...5 rings from 2 different teams...Certainly he played a role, but I'd bet the 49ers and Cowboys would have been a Super Bowl teams even without Charles..These were the 2 greatest teams of the 80's and 90's....
He's a viable candidate, IMO about equal with Fred Dean. Neither were better than Dent or Derrick Thomas IMO..I think Haley will eventually get a shot as a finalist once Dent and Thomas are elected. Then comes Strahan in 2013..After that he'll probably be the top DE on the board for a few years and might finally get a shot.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent. >>
Ignored? He's been a HOF semi-finalist the past 3 years...5 rings from 2 different teams...Certainly he played a role, but I'd bet the 49ers and Cowboys would have been a Super Bowl teams even without Charles..These were the 2 greatest teams of the 80's and 90's....
He's a viable candidate, IMO about equal with Fred Dean. Neither were better than Dent or Derrick Thomas IMO..I think Haley will eventually get a shot as a finalist once Dent and Thomas are elected. Then comes Strahan in 2013..After that he'll probably be the top DE on the board for a few years and might finally get a shot.
Jason >>
Yes, ignored. Not by the voters, but in discussions on this forum and others. Haley tends to be an after thought and in that respect, he tends to be ignored.
Yes, ignored. Not by the voters, but in discussions on this forum and others. Haley tends to be an after thought and in that respect, he tends to be ignored. >>
I guess that's probably because he hasn't really gotten very close yet, therefore not really a reason to discuss him in a HOF Rookie card thread. Personally I think he belongs on the Modern-Future HOF set and I voted for his addition last year, but not enough others did.
Here are the players that did not receive at least 50% of the votes here from last years set additions...7 votes were needed:
Brian Dawkins, FS- 4 Charles Haley, DE- 4 Jason Taylor, DE- 3 Cortez Kennedy, DT- 3 Ken Anderson, QB- 2 Joe Jacoby, OT- 2 Steve Tasker, ST- 1 Rickey Jackson, LB- 1 Kevin Mawae, OC- 0 Donnie Shell, SS- 0
If he makes the HOF semi-finals again (for the 4th time), He'll become the most recognized (by the voters) modern candidate not currently on the future HOFer set. He will be among the additions will will vote for again this year (January) and if he gets the votes here on the message board, I will request his addition. Keep an eye out so you can champion his cause and help get him added. Not sure what else is required to keep him from being an afterthought???
I do think he is HOF caliber and will at some point get in..Just too many others still in line ahead of him. Same could have been said about Fred Dean a couple of years ago and now he's all of a sudden in the HOF and better players Dent and Derrick Thomas still are not in..So you never know...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Still digging up those tapes, might take me a week or two, but they will in your hands sometime. I will wait till to request your address...otherwise it fall off the last 20 messages and I will never find it. (I wish PSA let you look at the last 100 or 200 messages).
Anyway, thought I would share a little two-minute sketch I made. Just if nothing to show I can separate a players career from his after career days. (Which I have no problem doing with OJ, Michael Irvin, Lawrence Taylor...or any other "bad boy.")
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
First of the month, so I will again post my updated "top 10" wantlist. I keep getting a good response on this, so let me know if any of you guys have any of the following available:
Can someone tell me what Cortez Kennedy's best RC is? Also does anone have an extra raw 362 2002 UPPER DECK XL ALAN FANECA they would like to sell. Can't find one anywhere. Thanks, Tom
<< <i>Can someone tell me what Cortez Kennedy's best RC is? Also does anone have an extra raw 362 2002 UPPER DECK XL ALAN FANECA they would like to sell. Can't find one anywhere. Thanks, Tom >>
Cortez Kennedy's best rookie is the card found on the 1990's Team of the Decade set, which is 1990 Score Supplemental. Same set as the Emmitt and Seau RC's. PSA 10's of the card are under $20.
I got my Faneca from sending in a raw one pulled from a 2002 Upper Deck XL box. I know Jon (fight4olddc) got his PSA 10 from a raw ebay purchase.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cortez Kennedy's best rookie is the card found on the 1990's Team of the Decade set, which is 1990 Score Supplemental. Same set as the Emmitt and Seau RC's. PSA 10's of the card are under $20.
Thank's Jason, I must be brain dead today, I aready have the card in the 90's set. That Faneca is a tuff card to find.
<< <i>I know Jon (fight4olddc) got his PSA 10 from a raw ebay purchase. >>
Ughh. I was the underbidder on that one. I pushed it to like $34, which I thought was a crazy price for a raw card. Turns out it was an absolute steal. Jon certainly deserves his share of those though, so I'm glad it worked out well for him.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I know Jon (fight4olddc) got his PSA 10 from a raw ebay purchase. >>
Ughh. I was the underbidder on that one. I pushed it to like $34, which I thought was a crazy price for a raw card. Turns out it was an absolute steal. Jon certainly deserves his share of those though, so I'm glad it worked out well for him. >>
He was definitely happy/excited when it popped PSA 10...I was shocked simply because i never have that kinda luck buying raw on ebay. He probably would have ended up with the first PSA 10 anyway, so at least he got it on the cheap. PSA 10 would probably run easily over $100 at this point.
Remains to be seen how tough they are. i bought a box of 2002 XL and pulled 3 Faneca's. Only one was worth grading, and it was a PSA 9. It's cheap card stock and has the dark/colored borders, so might end up being touhg to find in PSA 10 condition.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just had some cards pop. 3 day turnaround on the Aug 15 day special. Nothing exceptional, bummed the one Jordan got an OC, same with the Page and Robinson rc's. I'll have to measure them up again and see if I can get straight 8's on them. If anyone needs/wants anything, looking for around VCP avg on them. Just shoot me a pm.
EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1954 BOWMAN 4 DOUG ATKINS EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1956 TOPPS 71 STAN JONES EXCELLENT-MINT+ 6.5 1956 TOPPS 41 ROOSEVELT BROWN NEAR MINT-MINT 8 OC 1961 TOPPS 45 HENRY JORDAN NEAR MINT 7 1961 TOPPS 45 HENRY JORDAN NEAR MINT 7 1963 FLEER 10 NICK BUONICONTI NEAR MINT 7 1964 PHILADELPHIA 3 JOHN MACKEY NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 PHILADELPHIA 72 WILLIE DAVIS NEAR MINT 7 1965 PHILADELPHIA 130 TIM BROWN NEAR MINT 7 1965 PHILADELPHIA 67 PAT STUDSTILL NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1965 PHILADELPHIA 25 ROOSEVELT TAYLOR NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1965 PHILADELPHIA 109 GEORGE ROSE NEAR MINT 7 1965 PHILADELPHIA 189 PAUL KRAUSE MINT 9 OC 1967 PHILADELPHIA 80 DAVE ROBINSON EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1967 PHILADELPHIA 183 CHRIS HANBURGER EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1967 PHILADELPHIA 53 CHUCK HOWLEY NEAR MINT 7 1967 PHILADELPHIA 54 LEE ROY JORDAN MINT 9 OC 1970 TOPPS 59 ALAN PAGE NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1971 TOPPS 113 KEN HOUSTON NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1972 TOPPS 186 EUGENE UPSHAW N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1979 TOPPS 310 JAMES LOFTON (A BVG 8.5 crackout - this is the 2nd try. Both times Evid of Trim) N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1993 SP 6 JEROME BETTIS FOIL (A BGS 9 Crackout - 2 tries. Came back min-size last time) NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 2008 BOWMAN 224 SAM FULD AUTOGRAPH-ORANGE GEM MINT 10 2008 BOWMAN CHROME PROSPECTS BCP123 JOSH SMOKER AUTOGRAPH MINT 9 2008 BOWMAN CHROME PROSPECTS BCP117 EDWARD KUNZ AUTOGRAPH MINT 9 2008 BOWMAN CHROME PROSPECTS BCP130 ALAN JOHNSON AUTOGRAPH
Jasen - I like the Cards this year. Not sure what they're doing with Leinart, but Warner does give them the best chance to win. However, if they think Leinart is the qb of the future or if they don't think they can make the SB with Warner, then I don't understand the decision to start him. I hope he does well though, I nabbed him in one of my fantasy leagues.
Tonight it is on ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL ?
GO SKINS >>
Yes...and go GIANTS!!!!!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Anyone up for predicting this years playoff teams?
Here's mine- AFC:
New England Cleveland Indianapolis San Diego Jacksonville Denver
NFC: Dallas Minnesota New Orleans Seattle Philadelphia Green Bay
Super Bowl: New England over Dallas
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Comments
<< <i>I have an extra Humphrey. I have a 7, but I have a 7.5 in the mail that just popped a couple of days ago.
Sounds like a good time to sell or do you guys think it would be wiser to hold off until/if he is actually voted in? >>
Vince, Just my opinion but I would sell now. Last year, I was sitting on a PSA 7 GOldberg and put it on so that it ended a few days after the selections. I was offered 3 times what it sold for before it hit ebay but I took a gamble.........and lost. I know for a fact that there are several of us (me included) that will be salivating over the next Humphrey to hit ebay.
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i><< I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark
>>
Mark, I understand the post, but saying that you are glad that someone passed away just doesnt sit right with me. I have never in my life become "glad" after someone passed away no matter what i thought of them.
When Stover tried to get Upshaw booted last year, I was fine with that, because I wasnt a big Upshaw fan as PA pres either. We just have different opinions on the subject that I would rather not argue about.......
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Jasen
<< <i>
<< <i><< I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark
>>
Mark, I understand the post, but saying that you are glad that someone passed away just doesnt sit right with me. I have never in my life become "glad" after someone passed away no matter what i thought of them.
When Stover tried to get Upshaw booted last year, I was fine with that, because I wasnt a big Upshaw fan as PA pres either. We just have different opinions on the subject that I would rather not argue about.......
Dave >>
<< <i>
<< <i><< I was glad to see his passing >>
Thats a horrible thing to say.......... >>
You are only quoting part of my line. I am glad, because with Gene there, they were getting nowhere. There are 100s of previous players that need help. These same players needed help years ago, to them time is important. Simply put, they were never going to get it with Gene on top.
Ask Mike Ditka what he thinks. I bet his answer is much harsher then mine.
Mark
>>
Mark, I understand the post, but saying that you are glad that someone passed away just doesnt sit right with me. I have never in my life become "glad" after someone passed away no matter what i thought of them.
When Stover tried to get Upshaw booted last year, I was fine with that, because I wasnt a big Upshaw fan as PA pres either. We just have different opinions on the subject that I would rather not argue about.......
Dave >>
Perhaps I am more on the players side because of my own medical history. I got hospitalized right when I turned 18 with no insurance. A couple years later I filed bankruptcy so I could go to college and all of that. Well, some of the bills were not on record when I filed bankruptcy. I was garnished 50% of my wages for almost 12 years....then being single, I got taxed about 27%. I can only imagine some of the players that went through the many hoops Gene put in front of them, only to be turned away. I feel I got screwed, but at least I got help. I can also imagine their anger as they continued to hear about the record network fees, while being told $400 is enough for your $2000 monthly medical bills. Am I saying it is all Gene's fault? Absolutely not. But when you take a title, like President, you are accepting responsibility. When you are the president and make yourself the key negotiator, and use your position to create obstacles, like sending players to multiple doctors, you are shouldering a lot of responsibility....credit and when due, blame.
The only person I saw give fair commentary is John Madden. Upshaw use to be an assistant coach under Madden from what Madden was saying (I never knew that). Madden did praise Gene on several things. Like Madden noted how he would do his team talk and it would go on and on (Madden is like that), and when he was done, Upshaw would always say something and back what Madden said. But Madden also noted his problems...which interesting, he seemed to think that Upshaw was always yelling and cussing, and that it was a good thing. That he was spirited.
So anyway, if you guys allow me I will take back that statement and say, "I am glad he is no longer in that position."
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i> But Madden also noted his problems...which interesting, he seemed to think that Upshaw was always yelling and cussing, and that it was a good thing. That he was spirited.
Mark >>
Who cares if he yelled and cussed??? He was a pro football player not a school teacher. Look, I'm a military guy. Not only that i'm an Infantry guy....a grunt...
The game of football is very similar to what I do for a living. It's very tough physically and mentally. We have teams, squads, platoons..We all have to work together to get things done. We are often put in life altering situations and you have to know that the guy next to you is going to do the right thing, and you want to know that same guy is looking out for you making sure you are doing the right thing. Yelling and cussing in these lines of work is a GIVEN. It is a necessary evil to make sure your point is being made. The last thing i want is some bleeding heart liberal fighting beside me who's afraid to raise his voice or say a bad word. It's a violent job, just like football is a violent sport..That kind of thing comes with the territory..
Does that mean it has a place in the negotiating room? Absolutely not..Does it mean Upshaw yelled and cussed over every issue in every meeting or negotiation? Absolutely not...And if you have some type of evidence that he did so, i'd LOVE to see/hear it.
I guess I just see Upshaw's "side" in this..He was attacked by MANY ex-players over this issue with probably many of the same arguments you are using. I'm sure Upshaw got sick of being called a traitor and being made the scapegoat over an issue in which his hands were tied. If it were me, I would get pissy too...
Unfortunately, for every guy that is REALLY hurt and TRULY needs serious medical attention, there are 10 other guys trying to milk the system. I see it every day in the military...So many guys that have been to Iraq and Afganistan who come back to the states and blame all of their problems (problems that they had even BEFORE they went overseas) on PTSD or because they were injured (but have since recovered)...It's the whole "one bad apple spoils the bunch", and I would venture to guess the NFL has run into the same thing.
This is not an excuse though. The NFL as a whole needs to find a fix for this. Look around this country, there are MILLIONS of people who do not have lifetime medical care. You hear the "Universal Health Care" plan thrown around yet no one wants to pay for it...I know I don't..I earned mine by serving my country, just like many others who earned good health care by going to college, getting a good job, etc...Again, Upshaw was in a position as a union Pres, but you're giving him WAY too much credit assuming he had the power to make changes, laws, whatever by himself. If you want to blame him, you should also blame the owners, the current players and even the ex-players for not finding a way to get it fixed.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As President (actually executive director), Upshaw had a contract for $24 million in salary over six years. Upshaw also used his position to take an illegal $100,000 plus loan from the union. I don't know what he made signing autographs (which he did do for free in the mail), typical signing fees are $30-50,000 for two hours, but Upshaw's wallet got fat in his position.
So I didn't find it strange Upshaw did not see a problem. It is kind of like a current presidential candidate not seeing a housing crisis....and not even knowing how many homes he owned.
"Thirteen Hall of Famers interviewed by The Observer expressed concern that the NFL and the league players association, headed by Upshaw, don't do enough to help former players, especially pioneers of the game suffering crippling health and financial difficulties. "It's the deep, dark secret nobody wants to talk about," said Howie Long, a former Raiders defensive lineman who's now a studio analyst for Fox Sports."
"When I went to the Hall of Fame in 2000 and was inducted, it was a travesty the kind of carnage I saw out of these guys who were in their 50s and 60s, who had defined and in many ways laid the foundation for the NFL being what it is today," Long said.
"Many of them could barely rub two nickels together to get to Canton. Many of them couldn't afford to have their knee replaced or had fallen through whatever imaginary net there is from an economic standpoint. Not enough is being done."
Long said it's the dual responsibility of the league and the players association to fix the problem.
Other Hall of Famers say they feel neglected and abandoned by Upshaw.
"We figure all we have to do is go to my man," said former Baltimore Colts running back Lenny Moore. "He's the head of the NFL Players Association. He's the guy who ought to pry the door open for us."
Said ex-Houston Oilers defensive end Elvin Bethea: "The union doesn't care about us. You're a forgotten child."
Now Jason you keep mentioning they are better off now as a defense, and I will completely agree. But Upshaw, held that position for over 20 years. Show me one major sport where players are not better now then they were 20 years ago. Without researching, I would bet that even soccer players (ignoring the Beck contract) make more then they did 20 years ago. There is not even many non-sport fields where the employee is not better off. This is of course not figuring in cost of living and increasing cost of medical bills. I don't think any player who can't afford to replace his knee or the like, feels he is better off now.
Beside thinking the old players who could not afford medial were ungrateful, what else did Upshaw think?
"They (retirees) say they don't have anybody in the (bargaining) room. Well, they don't and they never will. I'm the only one in that room. They're not in the bargaining unit. They don't even have a vote."
It is a shame Upshaw was not that voice for them, but rather chose fought them. And I will note again, blame is not completely on Upshaw. But as Executive Director, key negotiator and according to Upshaw "the only one in that (bargaining) room", he earns a good share of the pie.....of the successes...and failures.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I hope you're right though. I hope whoever the new guy is can be the one to bridge the gap between the owners and current players and find a way to get the old timers taken care of. It's way overdue, and guys are passing away in bad health without a penny to their names.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Mark, as you said before, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Really isn't much more to say on it from my perspective. There are many issues contained within our discussion that we actually DO agree on. But the main point being that you think Upshaw is mainly to blame for the plight of the ex-players is something I can not buy into. I feel the same when I hear people bash President Bush as THE guy responsible for ALL the current problems in the country. People that actually believe a President of any large organization is responsible for solving all of it's problems are simply shortsighted and ill-informed..Yes they play a part, but typically MANY MANY MANY other factors and individuals are involved in the equations.
I hope you're right though. I hope whoever the new guy is can be the one to bridge the gap between the owners and current players and find a way to get the old timers taken care of. It's way overdue, and guys are passing away in bad health without a penny to their names.
Jason >>
"I hope whoever the new guy is can be the one to bridge the gap between the owners and current players and find a way to get the old timers taken care of. It's way overdue, and guys are passing away in bad health without a penny to their names."
I hope so also.
I interviewed a dozen or so HOF'ers, mostly Colts, concerning Weeb Ewbank about 10-12 years ago. Got friendly with several including Lenny Moore. Moore was in terrible health the last 5-10 years of his life and ended up living with his son. He called me 5-6 times at least as he loved to talk about Weeb and the Colts. I enjoyed our conversations and considered him a friend, more then a contact as he originally was.
Anyway, since you are the resident football history guy, if you would like, I will dig through my stuff and find the interviews, they are on cassette tape, and if you would like them, you can have them. They will likely need transcribed or transferred to CD in the next 5-10 years so they do not get loss. I can't remember who all I interviewed, I do remember Art Donovan, Raymond Berry, Jim Parker, beside Moore. As well as a few non-hof'ers such as Matte and Weeb's wife and daughter.
You mentioned a few messages back wanting to work at the HOF library. I donated a bunch of stuff to them from the Ewbank estate...and never got a thank you. As I have not worked on this project in so long it is likely best to pass them along to someone who would curate them better, and I feel you are a good candidate.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Jason, are your plans "really" to move to Ohio and work at the HOF? If so, that would be awesome............ >>
It's something I've been kicking around for awhile, and i'm very serious about it. After 20 years of serving, I really want to be able to continue doing something I really love rather than joining the typical workforce routine. Financially I will be in a position that I could live off my investment interest and retirement pay, so I could easily do one of the available volunteer jobs at the HOF..At least to start out anyway...Trying to get the wife on board is another matter..lol..Myself and my family are from Florida originally, and we tend to like WARM weather locations as well..
Mark, That would be awesome. I actually have a computer program and cable that allows me to do that. I've done it in the past for music cassettes. I can also contact a buddy of mine who works full-time at the HOF and ensure these get where they belong.
The HOF archives/library is just one piece of the pie there. It's only open by appointment, so there is no full-time staffer and it isn't open everyday. The fact that you didn't get a thank you pretty much speaks to the fact that it is a non-profit organization and like most of them, doesn't have a large budget towards salaries. They've been doing quite well with donations the past few years though and from what I've heard have some outstanding upgrades in the works.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
1955 Bowman Dick Stanfel PSA 6 - $25 obo (this is the nicest PSA 6 I have ever seen - it's a virtual lock for a PSA 7 if resubmitted)
1996 SP Marvin Harrison PSA 9 - $25 obo
Please PM or e-mail me at montooth13 at yahoo.com.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Now that we know who the senior finalists are, could someone tell me if there are any first ballot locks for next year, is Bruce smith up? >>
Here are the top modern candidates for this year:
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Cris Carter
Shannon Sharpe
Bob Kuechenberg
Randall McDaniel
Derrick Thomas
Richard Dent
John Randle
Ken Stabler
Russ Grimm
Andre Reed
Dermontti Dawson
Ray Guy
Lester Hayes
Smith and Woodson are the only "locks" IMO...I'd give Carter a 95%...After that, Shannon Sharpe and John Randle are on their first ballot, while Bob Kuechenberg and Ken Stabler are on their last...
My predictions as of right now for the Class of 2009 are:
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Cris Carter
Shannon Sharpe
Bob Kuechenberg
Bob Hayes
Claude Humphrey
As stated above, Smith and Woodson are 100% locks. I don't see any way Carter gets passed over again. Also, both senior candidates will get the nod this time.
The 2 question marks are Sharpe and Kuechenberg. Kuechenberg will be a close call between him and Randall McDaniel. With Carter going as a Viking, plus the fact it is Kuechenberg's last shot as a modern candidate I think he slips in finally. On Sharpe, I initially though Derrick Thomas would go in the spot. But with Bruce Smith and now Claude Humphrey going in as pass rushers, I see D.T. getting pushed back again.
Pretty early to make those predictions though, I haven't heard any of the voters even talking about it yet..Usually won't until the semi-finalists and finalists are released..The nominees don't even come out until late Oct/Nov..lol
The above it based completely on my own opinion, and doesn't involve any type of info from the guys actually doing the voting...Unlike Bob Hayes which I posted he would be chosen as one of the senior guys back on 4 August.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Being from Chicago I'm pulling for Dent. Still burns my butt that Dean got in last year and he didn't. >>
With Bruce Smith and Humphrey going in, what are the chances another pass rusher is selected??? I'd say zero. Slots are tough to come by, I agree with you on Dean...He got in on the "Bob Hayes" clause that he changed the game as being the first pass rush specialist...I though he was easily the weakest selection from last year. Not only over Dent, but over Derrick Thomas??? Not if I was a voter...lol
Dent is close though. In fact, I'd bet he will be in the HOF no later than Class of 2011...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Your posts imply your belief that Humphrey will get the necessary votes on Super Bowl weekend. Do you think Hayes will get in as well, and are these predictions for the seniors based upon how you would vote or do they include input from your discussions with voters on how they feel about the candidates?
Jasen
<< <i>Jason,
Your posts imply your belief that Humphrey will get the necessary votes on Super Bowl weekend. Do you think Hayes will get in as well, and are these predictions for the seniors based upon how you would vote or do they include input from your discussions with voters on how they feel about the candidates?
Jasen >>
Both will get the votes. The senior committee had a long discussion last year with the other non-senior committee Hall of Fame voters after Marshall Goldberg got nixed (rightfully so)..I wouldn't go so far as to call it a falling out, but the debate was heated. The outcome was the senior committee is going to focus on getting more of the "main stream" senior candidates elected rather than looking for extremely overlooked/forgotten players..
In the last 10 years, 15 players have been selected as Senior nominees...13 of those 15 are in the HOF, with the only 2 not getting the necessary votes being Bob Hayes in 2004 and Marshall Goldberg last year. The whole purpose of the senior committee is to get some of the guys elected who couldn't grab a spot during their modern eligibility. They've actually CHANGED the voting process to help the senior guys get in. The increased the senior nominees from one to two AND, the senior nominees can no longer steal a spot from a modern player. Under the new voting system, only 5 modern players can be elected in any given year, period. The 2 senior finalists are now voted on first and foremost. They can elect 0, 1, or 2, and it doesn't at all effect the modern candidates. In 2004, when Bob Hayes missed getting in, they used to mix the modern and senior finalists in the same debate. They also took all coaches and other non-players OFF the senior ballot...John Madden will be the last senior candidate coach..
Anyway, unless the senior committee chooses another Marshall Goldberg type player which I don't see happening again after last year, you can almost guarantee any senior selection will get the votes. If one or both of these candidates don't get in the HOF this year, I would venture to guess that they will do away with the senior committee altogether, or at best will totally change the process in which they pick the Senior players. Last year a couple of options were presented as future possibilities..One, is to include all the 40+ HOF voters in the senior selection process...The premise being that all of the 40+ would send in their ballots and the 2 candidates with the most votes would be inducted and would no longer require an additional 80% vote at the meeting in Feb. The second option would be to have all current HOF PLAYERS cast their votes for the senior selections and then include them as they do now as needing the 80% vote.
What is all boils down to is trust. The 9 member senior committee is supposed to be made up of long tenured, respected HOF voters...For the other 30+ voters deny their selections is to essentially say they do not trust their opinions. Needless to say, after the Goldberg debacle, a couple of the senior members were changed...
I'd be willing to bet my collection that both will get the votes this year and that is not based on my opinion at all.
In fact, I have my questions about Hayes being HOF caliber...I do think he changed the game and all, but I don't know that he did it any better than a few other speed guys of that era...Humphrey I have no doubts about..IMO, he's the Richard Dent of the 70's..Big guy, great pass rusher who was also just as strong against the run...Had he played for a big name team in a big market, he would have been in the HOF long ago. He's the kind of player the Senior committee was created to help get elected.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'd be willing to bet my collection that both will get the votes this year and that is not based on my opinion at all.
In fact, I have my questions about Hayes being HOF caliber...I do think he changed the game and all, but I don't know that he did it any better than a few other speed guys of that era...Humphrey I have no doubts about..IMO, he's the Richard Dent of the 70's..Big guy, great pass rusher who was also just as strong against the run...Had he played for a big name team in a big market, he would have been in the HOF long ago. He's the kind of player the Senior committee was created to help get elected.
Jason >>
Can I put a donut up against your collection?
I see Nobis in the same boat as Humphrey. Ironic that they were teammates.
I'm still in the 55/45 range on Hayes. Granted, he was the catalyst for the implementation of the zone defense, but there was still the novelty factor to his game. Not so much as Renaldo Nehemiah when he joined the 49ers, but I think you catch my drift. Sure, some great numbers, but...
I would love to see Claude get in with Tommy going in next year. But I'm guessing Howley or Jordan will get the nod before Nobis... BOOOOOO!
<< <i>
I would love to see Claude get in with Tommy going in next year. But I'm guessing Howley or Jordan will get the nod before Nobis... BOOOOOO! >>
Two Falcons in back-to-back years after 40 years without anyone? Not likely..
While i think Humphrey is a fine candidate, the thing I didn't like is that MY top guy Tommy Nobis is going to be pushed back a few years now. Looking at possibles for next year and guys I think won't be picked for various things I heard in the last month or so..My VERY EARLY predictions for 2010 are:
Jerry Kramer
Randy Gradishar
I don't think they will put another WR or DL guy up...I also don't think they'll choose a Falcon or a Cowboy. Just historically, they tend to try and spread the wealthy so to speak....
This knocks out strong candidates like Greenwood, Nobis, Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, Otis Taylor, etc...
This is also assuming Bob Kuechenberg gets in this year..If he doesn't, he becomes a Senior candidate, and knowing that many of the voters who have really pushed for Kuechenberg's induction ARE ON THE SENIOR COMMITTEE, I think he would be the choice in his first year as a Senior. Much like Rayfield Wright a few years back...
My #2 guy in the senior pool is Mick Tingelhoff..If you've seen any footage of him (other than his Super Bowl games..lol) he was a dominant Center...IMO, the 2nd best Center in the game during the 60's behind Jim Otto of course. But Jerry Kramer started getting a decent push last year, and was close again this year. I think he has leapfrogged Tingelhoff as the top OL candidate in the senior pool.
Next year has got to be the year they break open the backlog of LBs..But again, IMO, the top 3 guys there are Nobis, Howley and Dave Robinson...But I doubt they'll choose a Falcon and Cowboy in consecutive years..And they would also NEVER choose 2 players from THE SAME TEAM in the same year (Kramer and Robinson)..Which leaves Randy Gradishar as the next best guy. He's certainly the top inside 3-4 LB candidate...To me, if Harry Carson is in, Randy Gradishar is most certainly deserving.
Based on the rotation of the senior voters though, I wouldn't be surprised to see another Cowboy selected in 2011...If an LB is picked for 2010, then I'd guess Cliff Harris might finally get his call to the hall...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Bruce Smith
Cris Carter
Derrick Thomas
John Randle
I am preparing myself to be upset about Derrick Thomas again.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>My four modern picks, ignoring I have nothing to with the process would be...
Bruce Smith
Cris Carter
Derrick Thomas
John Randle
I am preparing myself to be upset about Derrick Thomas again. >>
John Randle over Rod Woodson? WOW....
I agree with you on the others, but to me, Woodson is a slam dunk...Was there a more complete DB in the 1990's than Woodson? He could cover, he could hit..Before his knee injury in 1995, I think he was on pace to be possible THE BEST of all-time..Even after that, he came back as a super solid Safety and played at an All-Pro level..Lott was a better hitter, Deion was a better cover guy, but Woodson was the total package..
Randle will definitely get in, but I wouldn't call him a first ballot guy. He wasn't good enough against the run, and as a DT, that has to be factored in. I'd like to see Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent go in before Randle, and I suspect that will be the case. Randle will get in at some point, most likely before Warren Sapp who comes up in 2013...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent. >>
I'm with ya Scott. I definitely think Haley is way underrated. It's supposed to be largely about Super Bowl wins right?
<< <i>
<< <i>My four modern picks, ignoring I have nothing to with the process would be...
Bruce Smith
Cris Carter
Derrick Thomas
John Randle
I am preparing myself to be upset about Derrick Thomas again. >>
John Randle over Rod Woodson? WOW....
I agree with you on the others, but to me, Woodson is a slam dunk...Was there a more complete DB in the 1990's than Woodson? He could cover, he could hit..Before his knee injury in 1995, I think he was on pace to be possible THE BEST of all-time..Even after that, he came back as a super solid Safety and played at an All-Pro level..Lott was a better hitter, Deion was a better cover guy, but Woodson was the total package..
Randle will definitely get in, but I wouldn't call him a first ballot guy. He wasn't good enough against the run, and as a DT, that has to be factored in. I'd like to see Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent go in before Randle, and I suspect that will be the case. Randle will get in at some point, most likely before Warren Sapp who comes up in 2013...
Jason >>
Woodson was a better player. But hey, that is my list. I like Randle more for his trash talking he use to do. Kind of your mamma like trash talking.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>I know this whole they can't put too many players from the same position or same team in the same HOF class thing exists, and I think it really sucks. You put the best players in. Period. I don't care if they all played the same position. That shouldn't matter. >>
I agree..The problem is there are 44 different opinions in the voting room..Just as we have shown here in our discussions, one guys "best player" is not another guys "best player"...When it comes to 2 guys from the same position, what happens is that they get compared to each other. Lets take the Art Monk over Cris Carter thing from last year...While I think Carter was the better WR, there were others who still believed Art Monk was the better WR. These are voters who have been pushing Monk and his candidacy for the last 7-8 years. Then here comes Cris Carter, SHOULD be a slam dunk HOFer, and had Art Monk been inducted 5 years ago, WOULD have been one..With so many deserving players, how can a voter say, "Ok, I'm going to vote for the first, second AND third best pass rusher candidates and not put in THE best Offensive Line candidate?
When they cut the list diwn from 15 to 10 to 5, those final 5 guys need 36 out of the 44 votes to get elected. If you have 10 guys backing Monk who say they won't vote for Carter until Art Monk gets his due, then what do you do? Choose Monk and have him voted down? That helps no one..That just makes your HOF class smaller and makes next years selections even tougher.
It's almost impossible to compare players not only from different eras, but even more so from different positions..How do you compare a DE vs. a WR and determine who was the better player? They did entirely different things on the field..But when they are the same position its much easier to compare them....
As far as teams go, with the modern selections, I don't necessarily think it is a factor. They have and probably will continue to vote guys from the same teams in the same years, like Monk and Green from last year. It is the senior guys that tend to get bumped because of this. With so many viable senior candidates, most of which are essentially within the same talent level, it only makes sense to spread the wealth. And with only 5 guys trying to make the right picks, guys they think are the most deserving and have the best shot at getting elected they want to make sure they are not catering to one team or to one segment of voters. You have to remember 32 of the 44 voters represent the NFL franchises. When a Vikings guy comes up for election, his presentation is given to the HOF voters by that teams representative. This is the part that becomes political and also don;t agree with, but I also understand how each team and each franchise wants its all-time great players to be recognized as all-time NFL greats.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent. >>
Ignored? He's been a HOF semi-finalist the past 3 years...5 rings from 2 different teams...Certainly he played a role, but I'd bet the 49ers and Cowboys would have been a Super Bowl teams even without Charles..These were the 2 greatest teams of the 80's and 90's....
He's a viable candidate, IMO about equal with Fred Dean. Neither were better than Dent or Derrick Thomas IMO..I think Haley will eventually get a shot as a finalist once Dent and Thomas are elected. Then comes Strahan in 2013..After that he'll probably be the top DE on the board for a few years and might finally get a shot.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I keep hearing Richard Dent, but how come everyone seems to ignore Charles Haley? One dimensional? He was more than that. How many Super Bowl rings? Five. That isn't exactly an accident or the byproduct of a good agent. >>
Ignored? He's been a HOF semi-finalist the past 3 years...5 rings from 2 different teams...Certainly he played a role, but I'd bet the 49ers and Cowboys would have been a Super Bowl teams even without Charles..These were the 2 greatest teams of the 80's and 90's....
He's a viable candidate, IMO about equal with Fred Dean. Neither were better than Dent or Derrick Thomas IMO..I think Haley will eventually get a shot as a finalist once Dent and Thomas are elected. Then comes Strahan in 2013..After that he'll probably be the top DE on the board for a few years and might finally get a shot.
Jason >>
Yes, ignored. Not by the voters, but in discussions on this forum and others. Haley tends to be an after thought and in that respect, he tends to be ignored.
<< <i>
Yes, ignored. Not by the voters, but in discussions on this forum and others. Haley tends to be an after thought and in that respect, he tends to be ignored. >>
I guess that's probably because he hasn't really gotten very close yet, therefore not really a reason to discuss him in a HOF Rookie card thread. Personally I think he belongs on the Modern-Future HOF set and I voted for his addition last year, but not enough others did.
Here are the players that did not receive at least 50% of the votes here from last years set additions...7 votes were needed:
Brian Dawkins, FS- 4
Charles Haley, DE- 4
Jason Taylor, DE- 3
Cortez Kennedy, DT- 3
Ken Anderson, QB- 2
Joe Jacoby, OT- 2
Steve Tasker, ST- 1
Rickey Jackson, LB- 1
Kevin Mawae, OC- 0
Donnie Shell, SS- 0
If he makes the HOF semi-finals again (for the 4th time), He'll become the most recognized (by the voters) modern candidate not currently on the future HOFer set. He will be among the additions will will vote for again this year (January) and if he gets the votes here on the message board, I will request his addition. Keep an eye out so you can champion his cause and help get him added. Not sure what else is required to keep him from being an afterthought???
I do think he is HOF caliber and will at some point get in..Just too many others still in line ahead of him. Same could have been said about Fred Dean a couple of years ago and now he's all of a sudden in the HOF and better players Dent and Derrick Thomas still are not in..So you never know...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Still digging up those tapes, might take me a week or two, but they will in your hands sometime. I will wait till to request your address...otherwise it fall off the last 20 messages and I will never find it. (I wish PSA let you look at the last 100 or 200 messages).
Anyway, thought I would share a little two-minute sketch I made. Just if nothing to show I can separate a players career from his after career days. (Which I have no problem doing with OJ, Michael Irvin, Lawrence Taylor...or any other "bad boy.")
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
'33 Grange 5
'35 Hinkle 5
'48 Baugh 6
'52 Stydahar 7 (large)
'54 Atkins 7
'61 Maynard 8
'64 Buchanan 8
'65 W. Brown 8
'73 Dierdorf 9
'73 Youngblood 9
Thanks again!
Jasen
Also does anone have an extra raw 362 2002 UPPER DECK XL ALAN FANECA they would like to sell. Can't find one anywhere.
Thanks,
Tom
<< <i>Can someone tell me what Cortez Kennedy's best RC is?
Also does anone have an extra raw 362 2002 UPPER DECK XL ALAN FANECA they would like to sell. Can't find one anywhere.
Thanks,
Tom >>
Cortez Kennedy's best rookie is the card found on the 1990's Team of the Decade set, which is 1990 Score Supplemental. Same set as the Emmitt and Seau RC's. PSA 10's of the card are under $20.
I got my Faneca from sending in a raw one pulled from a 2002 Upper Deck XL box. I know Jon (fight4olddc) got his PSA 10 from a raw ebay purchase.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thank's Jason, I must be brain dead today, I aready have the card in the 90's set.
That Faneca is a tuff card to find.
<< <i>I know Jon (fight4olddc) got his PSA 10 from a raw ebay purchase. >>
Ughh. I was the underbidder on that one. I pushed it to like $34, which I thought was a crazy price for a raw card. Turns out it was an absolute steal. Jon certainly deserves his share of those though, so I'm glad it worked out well for him.
<< <i>
<< <i>I know Jon (fight4olddc) got his PSA 10 from a raw ebay purchase. >>
Ughh. I was the underbidder on that one. I pushed it to like $34, which I thought was a crazy price for a raw card. Turns out it was an absolute steal. Jon certainly deserves his share of those though, so I'm glad it worked out well for him. >>
He was definitely happy/excited when it popped PSA 10...I was shocked simply because i never have that kinda luck buying raw on ebay. He probably would have ended up with the first PSA 10 anyway, so at least he got it on the cheap. PSA 10 would probably run easily over $100 at this point.
Remains to be seen how tough they are. i bought a box of 2002 XL and pulled 3 Faneca's. Only one was worth grading, and it was a PSA 9. It's cheap card stock and has the dark/colored borders, so might end up being touhg to find in PSA 10 condition.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just had some cards pop. 3 day turnaround on the Aug 15 day special. Nothing exceptional, bummed the one Jordan got an OC, same with the Page and Robinson rc's. I'll have to measure them up again and see if I can get straight 8's on them. If anyone needs/wants anything, looking for around VCP avg on them. Just shoot me a pm.
EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1954 BOWMAN 4 DOUG ATKINS
EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1956 TOPPS 71 STAN JONES
EXCELLENT-MINT+ 6.5 1956 TOPPS 41 ROOSEVELT BROWN
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 OC 1961 TOPPS 45 HENRY JORDAN
NEAR MINT 7 1961 TOPPS 45 HENRY JORDAN
NEAR MINT 7 1963 FLEER 10 NICK BUONICONTI
NEAR MINT 7 1964 PHILADELPHIA 3 JOHN MACKEY
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 PHILADELPHIA 72 WILLIE DAVIS
NEAR MINT 7 1965 PHILADELPHIA 130 TIM BROWN
NEAR MINT 7 1965 PHILADELPHIA 67 PAT STUDSTILL
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1965 PHILADELPHIA 25 ROOSEVELT TAYLOR
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1965 PHILADELPHIA 109 GEORGE ROSE
NEAR MINT 7 1965 PHILADELPHIA 189 PAUL KRAUSE
MINT 9 OC 1967 PHILADELPHIA 80 DAVE ROBINSON
EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1967 PHILADELPHIA 183 CHRIS HANBURGER
EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1967 PHILADELPHIA 53 CHUCK HOWLEY
NEAR MINT 7 1967 PHILADELPHIA 54 LEE ROY JORDAN
MINT 9 OC 1970 TOPPS 59 ALAN PAGE
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1971 TOPPS 113 KEN HOUSTON
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1972 TOPPS 186 EUGENE UPSHAW
N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1979 TOPPS 310 JAMES LOFTON (A BVG 8.5 crackout - this is the 2nd try. Both times Evid of Trim)
N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1993 SP 6 JEROME BETTIS FOIL (A BGS 9 Crackout - 2 tries. Came back min-size last time)
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 2008 BOWMAN 224 SAM FULD AUTOGRAPH-ORANGE
GEM MINT 10 2008 BOWMAN CHROME PROSPECTS BCP123 JOSH SMOKER AUTOGRAPH
MINT 9 2008 BOWMAN CHROME PROSPECTS BCP117 EDWARD KUNZ AUTOGRAPH
MINT 9 2008 BOWMAN CHROME PROSPECTS BCP130 ALAN JOHNSON AUTOGRAPH
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Jasen
Jasen - I like the Cards this year. Not sure what they're doing with Leinart, but Warner does give them the best chance to win. However, if they think Leinart is the qb of the future or if they don't think they can make the SB with Warner, then I don't understand the decision to start him. I hope he does well though, I nabbed him in one of my fantasy leagues.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
That's a very nice 2.
Keep me in mind if you upgrade, lol.
Tom
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Tonight it is on ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL ?
GO SKINS
<< <i>CANT WAIT MY FELLOW FOOTBALL FANS
Tonight it is on ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL ?
GO SKINS >>
Yes...and go GIANTS!!!!!
I gotta go with the "other" Manning though.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Here's mine- AFC:
New England
Cleveland
Indianapolis
San Diego
Jacksonville
Denver
NFC:
Dallas
Minnesota
New Orleans
Seattle
Philadelphia
Green Bay
Super Bowl: New England over Dallas
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Isn't Peyton now the other Manning?