Anyone have any high-end, nicely centered 8's (late 50's, 1960's) HOF rookies for sale? I'm getting itchy Only looking for the cheapies now (Parker, Gregg, J. Johnson, etc.).
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Interesting article by one of the HOF Senior Committee voters...
By Jerry Magee UNION-TRIBUNE
July 27, 2008
Paul Tagliabue endorsed Jack Kemp for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
A touchy matter, this. Reference is to Jack Kemp's candidacy for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and, more particularly, Paul Tagliabue's support of it.
There is no problem here with Kemp's position. He escorted the Buffalo Bills to AFL championships in 1964 and 1965, each time in championship games maneuvering his side to conquests of the San Diego franchise that had surrendered him to the Bills for a $100 waiver claim. No Chargers quarterback – and I have observed them all – possessed the arm strength of Kemp. After fielding his fastballs in practice, receivers would leave the field with welts on their forearms. The man could bring it.
What makes me uncomfortable is Tagliabue's endorsement of Kemp. He expressed it in a letter to Joe Horrigan, an executive of the hall, and Horrigan forwarded it to the nine members of the hall's senior selection committee, on which I am privileged to serve.
I bring up this point with the greatest hesitancy. The hall's position is that expressions of support for a possible inductee are “for your eyes only,” in this instance meaning my eyes and the eyes of the eight others charged with weighing the merits of veteran candidates – those whose careers concluded at least 25 years ago.
I want to say here that in my thinking, the greatest honor that can come to a football writer is to have a voice in who is chosen for the hall. Anybody with any feeling for football as it is when it is played for money would feel this way. I have been twice blessed, first when I was included on the overall selection committee, later when I was tapped to sit in judgment on the veteran candidates. I revere the hall. Never have I flouted its standards. In this matter, however, I must.
Kemp, I want to emphasize, is blameless. The fault I find is with Tagliabue. As the former commissioner of the NFL, I do not believe he should have lent his name in supporting any candidate, certainly not one who has a continuing association with the league. Kemp serves as chairman of the board of USA Football, which acts to champion football, not football as it is played in the NFL or in the high schools and colleges, but all football, the game. Further, he is a board member of NFL Youth Football.
For Tagliabue to have singled out Kemp for his support simply was wrong, for several reasons. In his letter, the former commissioner cites Kemp's “profound impact on society with his almost two decades of service in the United States House of Representatives, his position as a candidate for Vice President of the United States, his leadership on issues of fairness, entrepreneurship and civil and human rights in our society, and as the former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.”
Kemp, indeed, is an individual of the highest quality, but by the hall's dictum, only what a person does on the field should be considered in deciding whether to have his bust displayed in the corridors of the Canton shrine. At a time when Lawrence Taylor's conduct would not have been viewed as exemplary, Taylor was a hall finalist. Properly, according to the hall's standards, he was accepted.
Citizenship is not at issue here. Whether one wins election to the hall is based purely on deeds performed between those white lines.
I also have to question if Tagliabue saw enough of Kemp to adjudge his merits as a quarterback. When Kemp was beginning his tenure with the then-Los Angeles Chargers in 1960, Tagliabue, now 67, was 19 and on the other side of the country, attending Georgetown University, from which he would become an honors graduate in 1962.
Something else disturbs me. Horrigan, the finest of men, included written messages of support for Kemp and one other senior candidate with the ballot on which the senior electors were charged with naming the 15 persons whose candidacies are to be debated in a meeting in Canton on Aug. 27. It would have been possible to interpret the inclusion of these messages as an indication that the hall was recommending these two.
Each year, I might note, five of the nine members of the senior committee get together to select the two senior candidates who are to be presented to the overall selection committee. This is not my year to go to Canton. I wish I were going. Not being there, I won't be able to champion John Hadl, should he make the cut to 15. Hadl last year received a sympathetic hearing by the committee. He is a most meritorious candidate.
As a football player, Kemp, too, is a viable candidate, with his 10 years as a professional, 21,218 yards passing and 114 TDs. This is how he should be considered – as a football player, only that. Mark that, Paul Tagliabue.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Great article - thanks for sharing. Has the senior finalist list of 15 been "released" yet? I'm pretty sure the list of the 15 senior finalists is already set and the 2 senior finalists will be chosen from that list at the end of August....right?
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Great article - thanks for sharing. Has the senior finalist list of 15 been "released" yet? I'm pretty sure the list of the 15 senior finalists is already set and the 2 senior finalists will be chosen from that list at the end of August....right?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Greg, I asked the same question to one of the Senior Committee voters that I know. The 9 members just received the preliminary list of candidates last week and they have 2 weeks to re-submit their 15 choices back to the HOF so they can tally the votes. So, most likely they won't have the semifinal list of 15 for another week or 2. Last year, they did not release that list of 15 to the public, but I was able to obtain it a week or so prior.
I'll keep my ear to the ground and pass the info if/when I hear anything..Worst case, we will find out the final 2 before we know who the 15 were. Eventually it will get leaked though. I always like to know who they are ahead of time so I can be sure to either own all 15, or at worst have an idea where to find any that I don't...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So what's everyone's predictions for the 2 senior candidates this year? I honestly don't have a clue, so I can't even hazard a guess. Maybe I'll go with Bob Hayes and ?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>So what's everyone's predictions for the 2 senior candidates this year? I honestly don't have a clue, so I can't even hazard a guess. Maybe I'll go with Bob Hayes and ? >>
I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year.
<< <i>I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year. >>
My question would be why? Kemp only played 8 full seasons, had as many as 20 TD passes just once, and retired with 114 TDs and 183 INTs. That's one hundred and eighty three interceptions. As erratic as the voting can be at times, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get in. But his stats are FAR from hall worthy.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I only know who 3 of the 5 senior selectors going to the 27 August meeting are so far, and it looks like a strong/good group. Not the old fogies they had last year, so hopes are high for good selections.
My top 10 for this year:
MICK TINGELHOFF...Top senior candidate on the board IMO, has been very close the last 4 years..I give him 80% chance TOMMY NOBIS..Mr. Falcon should be the first Atlanta player inducted...I'd say 90% that a LB will get selected this year, simply because it is the strongest position in the Senior pool, 60% it's Nobis CHUCK HOWLEY...Howley could easily be the choice over Nobis...They are very different players, so will basically boil down to which type of guy the voters value more..I'd give him a 40% chance CLAUDE HUMPHREY...Very deserving, but I have to think Nobis will go in before Humphrey..Especially with Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent so close on the modern ballot..20% L.C. GREENWOOD...Either Greenwood or Humphrey will get in within the next 3-4 years..They both belong.. 20% shot JERRY KRAMER...Another LONG overdue guy...If Kuechenberg somehow gets pushed back to the Senior pool after this year, Kramer's wait will be even longer..10% longshot RANDY GRADISHAR...First year on the Senior ballot, he will stay high in the rankings here before eventually getting in, but I'd be shocked if it were this year though.. 10% DAVE ROBINSON...Another of the long list of great LBs who have thus far been snubbed...I'd say the 3 before him are more deserving, plus Kramer is the better Packer choice..Still a strong candidate... 5% this year BOB HAYES...I think he will eventually get another shot at the HOF, but IMO, will be after the current group (Carter, Rice, Brown, Reed) all get out of the way. Based on this years voters, don't rule him out..At least one of the 5 selectors was the guy who championed Hayes back in 2004...5% this year CLIFF HARRIS..He would be higher on my list if Emmitt Thomas weren't selected last year..A 2nd DB from the same era in consecutive years? 5%
All others I'd give 1%...Note that Emmitt Thomas and Marshall Goldberg were probably the LONGEST of shots last year, yet they were selected..You really never know which way the voters will go, but as I said before...I have a good feeling that this years selectors won't go after the old timers and/or try to make some out of left field choice...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year. >>
My question would be why? Kemp only played 8 full seasons, had as many as 20 TD passes just once, and retired with 114 TDs and 183 INTs. That's one hundred and eighty three interceptions. As erratic as the voting can be at times, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get in. But his stats are FAR from hall worthy. >>
Agreed...I would choose Conerly, Hadl and Brodie over Kemp by a landslide, and i think most of the voters would do the same...
I think the "push" he received from Tagliabue will do exactly nothing for Kemp..Taglibue can't (and may never) get in, so why would the Senior voters take his word for it over there own beliefs on who belongs?
The answer is, they won't..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My positional rankings for the current Senior candidates:
QB- CHARLIE CONERLY JOHN HADL JOHN BRODIE RB- FLOYD LITTLE WR- BOB HAYES OTIS TAYLOR LAVIE DILWEG DEL SHOFNER MAC SPEEDIE DREW PEARSON BILLY WILSON TE- PETE RETZLAFF OC- MICK TINGELHOFF OG- JERRY KRAMER DICK STANFEL RILEY MATHESON DICK BARWEGAN ED BUDDE OX EMERSON JIM MCMILLIEN OT- AL WISTERT JIM TYRER
DE- CLAUDE HUMPHREY L.C. GREENWOOD JIM MARSHALL GENE BRITO RICH JACKSON ED SPRINKLE DT- ALEX KARRAS GENE LIPSCOMB LB- TOMMY NOBIS CHUCK HOWLEY RANDY GRADISHAR DAVE ROBINSON CHRIS HANBURGER LEE ROY JORDAN ANDY RUSSELL CB- JACK BUTLER BOBBY DILLON DICK LEBEAU LEMAR PARRISH PAT FISCHER S- CLIFF HARRIS JOHNNY ROBINSON JIMMY PATTON DICK ANDERSON
This is everyone I feel is a HOF quality player or at a minimum has been a Senior semifinalist the past 5 years... Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would give Hadl a slight nudge over Conerly...jmho. Also, I would love to see Al Wistert in the HOF. He is 95 and still sharp as a tack. I've gotten 5 or 6 cards autographed from him and he will write a page to page and a half note every time.
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
I would give Hadl a slight nudge over Conerly...jmho. Also, I would love to see Al Wistert in the HOF. He is 95 and still sharp as a tack. I've gotten 5 or 6 cards autographed from him and he will write a page to page and a half note every time.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Me too Greg..I really thought he would be the "old timer" choice last year, but for some idiotic reason they went with Goldberg instead...I'd be really surprised if a pre-1950 player is selected again this year..
The reason I like Conerly over Hadl is that Conerly was a league MVP and Championship winning QB of some of the historic Ginats teams of the 50's...Hadl has bigger stats though, and was a big part of Lance Alworth's AFL success. I wouldn't have a problem with either going in or even John Brodie, I think all are borderline HOF quality for varying reasons...But to be honest, the next Senior QB to make the HOF will very likely be Ken Stabler down the road...I don't know if Conerly, Hadl or Brodie will ever get in...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year. >>
My question would be why? Kemp only played 8 full seasons, had as many as 20 TD passes just once, and retired with 114 TDs and 183 INTs. That's one hundred and eighty three interceptions. As erratic as the voting can be at times, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get in. But his stats are FAR from hall worthy. >>
Was actually just trying to make a joke, playing off the article Jason posted. I don't think Kemp belongs in the Hall based upon his on-field performance either. You did get all riled up, though.....maybe you would even put Stabler in front of him??? LOL
<< <i>Just a reminder to you guys that tonight on NFL Network is the Top 10 "should-be" HOFers, 8pm ET I believe. My tivo is all set!
Jasen >>
Here's the top 10 from the show (Where I would rank these 10 in parenthesis):
1-Jerry Kramer (3) 2-Derrick Thomas (2) 3-Cris Carter (1) 4-Jim Marshall (9) 5-Bob Hayes (4) 6-Ken Stabler (6) 7-Ricky Watters (8) 8-Alex Karras (5) 9-Steve Tasker (10) 10- Ken Anderson (7)
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I wonder if Kramer will get an extra push for the HOF based on that. You never know I guess.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Let's hope so I've long believed he should already be in the HOF. Hornung and Taylor wouldn't be in there without him.
Gerald Louis "Jerry" Kramer (born January 23, 1936, in Jordan, Montana) is a former professional football player, author and sports commentator, best remembered for his 11-year NFL career with the Green Bay Packers as an offensive lineman. As a 6'3", 250 lb. right guard, #64 was an integral part of the famous "Packer Sweep", a signature play in which both guards rapidly pull out from their normal positions and lead-block for the running back going around the end. Kramer was an All-Pro five times, and a member of the NFL's 50th anniversary team in 1969, but surprisingly, even after appearing on the list of finalists ten times since becoming eligible, has not been inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He was inducted into the Green Bay Packers Hall of Fame in 1975.et's hope so, I've long believed he should already be in the HOF.
<< <i>I wonder if Kramer will get an extra push for the HOF based on that. You never know I guess. >>
There were quite a few HOF voters who were part of the show, making comments on the players and such...
He's definitely one of the stronger senior candidates..I ranked him 6th out of all the seniors...No reason he couldn't be one of the two..If he is, he will trump Tingelhoff and I think the 2nd guy will still be a defensive player, either a LB or DL...Nobis got a mention on the show...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>My positional rankings for the current Senior candidates:
QB- CHARLIE CONERLY JOHN HADL JOHN BRODIE RB- FLOYD LITTLE WR- BOB HAYES OTIS TAYLOR LAVIE DILWEG DEL SHOFNER MAC SPEEDIE DREW PEARSON BILLY WILSON TE- PETE RETZLAFF OC- MICK TINGELHOFF OG- JERRY KRAMER DICK STANFEL RILEY MATHESON DICK BARWEGAN ED BUDDE OX EMERSON JIM MCMILLIEN OT- AL WISTERT JIM TYRER
DE- CLAUDE HUMPHREY L.C. GREENWOOD JIM MARSHALL GENE BRITO RICH JACKSON ED SPRINKLE DT- ALEX KARRAS GENE LIPSCOMB LB- TOMMY NOBIS CHUCK HOWLEY RANDY GRADISHAR DAVE ROBINSON CHRIS HANBURGER LEE ROY JORDAN ANDY RUSSELL CB- JACK BUTLER BOBBY DILLON DICK LEBEAU LEMAR PARRISH PAT FISCHER S- CLIFF HARRIS JOHNNY ROBINSON JIMMY PATTON DICK ANDERSON
This is everyone I feel is a HOF quality player or at a minimum has been a Senior semifinalist the past 5 years... Jason >>
Nice rankings Jason. Nice to see you remember an old, old school Packer great in Lavie Dilweg. A well deserving old end who most have forgotten about after Don Hutson came along.
Where's halfback Verne Lewellen? Another Packers great from the same era. I think he was the leading Packers scorer until Hutson broke his team mark. Also was one of the greatest, if not the greatest punter of his era. First team All-league from '26-29. Key member of three straight NFL championship teams from '29-31. Scored 37 TD's, did it all really. Great two-way player.
The four deserving Packers lacking from the HOF are: Dilweg, Lewellan, D. Robinson, and J. Kramer.
About the only guy on the list I don't like is RB F. Little. When a lot of your voted him as the future senior running back I didn't get it then either. He was no better than Paul Lowe, Abner Haynes, or Clem Daniels. Little had five very good to great years. He also had some very poor years too. Never played on a winner. I don't know. Lowe and Haynes were in many championship games and have much higher averages rushing the ball. Haynes was Little's equal in returning kicks. Daniels had little peer out of the backfield receiving the ball. He's so overlooked. What a great player.
The rest of your list is spot on imho. Nice selections.
Here's something interesting I read..An idea about separating the Baseball HOFers into levels or tiers. I have adjusted the write up to be football related. Where would we rank the Senior candidates within this level/tier list?
Level 1 Ground floor of The Pyramid ... designated for marginal guys who were considered "Borderline Hall of Famers," either had a great career, but not long enough, or were very good for a long time, rarely great ... anyone voted in simply because they reached a benchmark would be thrown in here ... you could even include players who broke significant individual records.
Level 2 Second floor of The Pyramid ... not quite as cluttered, not as much space ... reserved for guys who were definitely Hall of Famers, but didn't quite possess a Level 3 resume for one or more of the following reasons:
1. Their team never won a Championship. 2. Something was missing from their career totals. 3. They never enjoyed an outrageously great, award winning single season. 4. Somebody else played their position during their time who was better. 5. Their career was shortened by injury and/or rapidly declining skills.
Level 3 Reserved for the "No-Doubt-About-It" Hall of Famers ... these guys were undoubtedly the best at their position for years and years, with all the requisite "resume" stats to match ... unfortunately, there's a distinct, crucial difference between Level 3 and Level 4 (explanation coming).
Level 4 These are basically "L3" guys, only there's something just inherently "greater" about them. Some possible indications:
1. Do you have to consider them in any "best of all-time" discussions? 2. Did they have transcendent games or memorable moments? 3. Were they just dominant/unstoppable during there era? 5. Will you always remember watching them play, even when you're 80 years old and peeing on yourself?
Level 5 Take a deep breath. Level 5 is the top of the pyramid, literally and figuratively. You can rattle the L5 guys off the top of your head: Johnny Unitas, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice. That's Level 5. The best of the best. The Pantheon.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here is where I see the top Senior guys according to the levels:
MICK TINGELHOFF...L2 TOMMY NOBIS..L2 CHUCK HOWLEY...L2 CLAUDE HUMPHREY...L2 L.C. GREENWOOD...L2 JERRY KRAMER...L2 RANDY GRADISHAR...L1 DAVE ROBINSON...L1 BOB HAYES...L1 CLIFF HARRIS..L1
Based on this, IMO, L2 and above are guys that should NO DOUBT be in the HOF..L1 guys are always going to be borderline, no matter if they get elected or not..There are plenty of L1 guys in the HOF already, but that doesn't make others any more worthy...These are the guys who, no question in my mind SHOULD be in the HOF already.
Modern-- Derrick Thomas...L4 Cris Carter...L3 Randall McDaniel..L3 Dermontti Dawson..L3 Richard Dent..L2 Bob Kuechenberg...L2
Seniors-- Mick Tingelhoff...L2 Tommy Nobis...L2 Chuck Howley...L2 Claude Humphrey...L2 LC Greenwood...L2 Jerry Kramer...L2
For the first ballot guys coming in 2009:
Bruce Smith...L4 Rod Woodson...L4 Shannon Sharpe...L3 John Randle...L2
Lastly, comparing to the last 3 HOF classes: Fred Dean..L1 Darrell Green...L4 Art Monk...L2 Emmitt Thomas...L1 Andre Tippett...L2 Gary Zimmerman...L3 Gene Hickerson...L2 Michael Irvin...L3 Bruce Matthews...L4 Charlie Sanders...L1 Thurman Thomas...L3 Roger Wehrli...L1 Troy Aikman...L4 Harry Carson...L2 John Madden...L1 Warren Moon...L3 Reggie White...L5 Rayfield Wright...L2
So in the past 3 classes, the voters have put in borderline modern candidates Fred Dean, Roger Wehrli while NOT putting in Derrick Thomas, Cris Carter, Randall McDaniel and Dermontti Dawson...The Senior Committee has selected Emmitt Thomas, Charlie Sanders and Jon Madden while NOT selecting any of the top L2 senior guys..Of course these are all based entirely on my opinion, but I'd really like to know how the voters can justify it..I wish they were held accountable for their votes..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hate interupt this with a little card question but does anyone have a 64 mackey in 8 they would like to sell? Please PM. Fuzz
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
Caught the first half of the 10 best players not in the HOF last night. So far, so good. The old time Raiders need to stop crying though . The radio host guy from Pittsburgh that they interview for all of these top 10 shows is one of the most annoying characters I've ever seen on TV. He's gotta go.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Interesting National so far. Saw 3 Nagurski's in the room. Memory Lane has their PSA 8, and there was a PSA 4 (priced at $6500) and a PSA 3 (WAY overpriced at $5200). None were what I would call high end for the grade. Plenty of Chicles in both low and high grade. If price were no object, you could probably build at least 2 complete sets from the room!
Many dealers were offering raw vintage well over SMR for the grade they were "suggesting" the card was. Several tables had some great deals and most dealers seemed to have positive comments about Wednesday and Thursday. Friday was a bit slow and bodes for a softer weekend. We'll see, but hopefully that means plenty of good buys on the material that still remains - - and there's plenty!
I would have to say that the selection this year is some of the best in recent memory. Whether looking for raw or graded vintage or vintage non-sport, there seems to be plenty of it. The only thing that seemed to be poorly represented was vintage hockey and pre-1972 basketball.
Looking forward to two more great days and if anyone is around, drop me a PM . . . I'd love to meet you if you've got the time!
Well it was at last year's National that I started this set, with the purchase of a Jim Brown 7 and a Herb Adderley 8. One year later, I am at 50% completion. So far it has been a lot of fun and a real education, as my previous background in the hobby was not in the vintage market. I still have quite a lot to learn and a lot to accomplish with this set. I want to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have helped me build my set thus far (I don't want to mention people by name just for fear of leaving somone out, but you know who you are). I look forward to continue building my set towards completion at the grade levels I have set for myself, and I will continue to post my Top 10 list periodically, as I've picked up quite a few so far this way. And since I could not attend this year's National, I am already making plans for next year in Cleveland in 2009!!!
I thought Monk's ovation was awesome. Gotta say, Darrell Green's "I belong here! I belong here!" bit was stupid. No reason for that.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Yep. It sucked. At least, I was very disappointed. Some guys were impressed, I really wasn't.
I met Joey Squires and Scott (otw). Nice guys, a little uglier than I expected though. >>
LOL
thats funny Josh, I met your wife in a stall in the mens room
Great to meet you JT and see you hard at work cruising the aisles, suitcase in tow. Sorry we couldnt hook up for dinner.
I didnt end up with much, there was alot of really high priced graded stuff, people wanted alot for their marginal raw stuff. I ended up buying a gai 8 57 topps wax pack. Rick Snyder found a psa 9 Paul Warfield for me that I was happy to see, he also agreed to sell a box of new kids on the block wax packs I bought on consignment
I tried really hard to get someone to buy Scott OTW's Bednarik psa 5, but his tattoos and mohawk scared them off. They ended up buying a few of Andy Beckers 35 chicles instead (what was left of them anyway)
met Paul (wolfbear), he was even sober at the time, so thats a good thing. He was wearing black socks and flip flops, past memorial day even, major fashion sin
Met Joe T (allen alan) and his dad, great guys who obviously love the hobby. Joes a nuclear engineer, who knew that?
Met Joey O (Orlando) at a restaurant we were having dinner at, he's much more handsome in person than in his "taking his hacks" photo. I told him I was a huge fan of his wiwag deposition.
Got Rezza (the grader o' death ) to autograph my SMR magazine while we were at dinner, thinking about sending it into PSA/ DNA to see if they will authenticate it
Had alot of fun, meeting the people you talk to and see post everyday, looking at cards, wandering the halls, drinking, eating, and having my flight back to sunny tropical portland from chicago delayed 4 hours on friday.
Twas a shame you couldnt make it Marc, but Ill see you in vegas at the craps table in a few months
<< <i>I met Joey Squires and Scott (otw). Nice guys, a little uglier than I expected though. >>
Publius wrote:
<< <i>I tried really hard to get someone to buy Scott OTW's Bednarik psa 5, but his tattoos and mohawk scared them off. >>
Nice meeting both of you, too. You're right Joe, that mohawk is a real turn-off and a sales killer. Amazing that I can sell homes looking like that! Once I figure out how to grow the hair back in the spot that a mohawk grows, I'll be sure to do something about it!
They let you in the Men's room? With all the lipstick and the high heels, I'd have thought for sure they would have stopped you. I was surprised to see Scott had a mohawk, that killed me. Funny thing was, I whipped out my box-o-crap filled with PSA 10's only a registry nut would love and he goes "Is your name Josh". Holy crap, that freaked me out.
Wish I had met a couple others that were down there, but I was so busy at work I didn't get time to post on here and make any plans. I too am sorry we missed dinner. I'll give you a buzz this week though and we can chat. By the way, that "RAM" place is terrible. Absolutely f'n terrible. Should've went to Lou Malnatti's instead. That's twice I've missed it. Anyway, the Sun Times show is in November I think, you could fly in then. I'm going to try and make it down there.
But just wanted to give some advice...If you do not own a Bob Hayes RC, you might want to grab one prior to 27 August...
You heard it here first...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You had to love the big hand for the quite man 4+ mins standing O for Art Monk and it was not just the fans but the other HOF,ers says a lot. >>
That's because everybody on the planet, excepting about half a dozen people, knew he belonged there long ago.
Shag, did you catch Green's whole speech? He followed that up by saying that he had been blessed with the fame and influence he had in order to spread the Gospel. That's not really a view I share personally, but it wasn't the spasm of self-indulgence that ESPN's highlights made it look like.
<< <i>That's because everybody on the planet, excepting about half a dozen people, knew he belonged there long ago. >>
Count me in that half dozen I guess...Do i think he is HOF caliber? Yes, but he's borderline. Monk is/was and always will be FAR from the FIRST BALLOT LOCK HOFer that most Redskins fans believe he was. So what, he waited 8 years..He probably should have waited longer, because Cris Carter was a better WR than Art Monk and should have went in this year. Monk FINALLY got the sympathy votes because many of the voters have grown tired of debating his name every year.
Let's look at all of the modern-era HOF WRs and how long they had to wait...
Lance Alworth..First ballot Raymond Berry...First ballot Steve Largent..First ballot Paul Warfield..First ballot Charley Taylor...Waited 2 years (also retired as the all-time receptions leader) Michael Irvin...Waited 3 years Charlie Joiner...Waited 5 years (also retired all-time receptions leader) Fred Biletnikoff...Waited 5 years James Lofton...Waited 5 years Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch...Waited 7 years Tom Fears...Waited 8 years Art Monk...Waited 8 years Pete Pihos...Waited 8 years Don Maynard...Waited 9 years (also retired as the all-time receptions leader) Bobby Mitchell...Waited 10 years John Stallworth...Waited 10 years Dante Lavelli...Waited 13 years Lynn Swann..Waited 14 years Tommy McDonald...Waited 25 years
Sorry, but 8 years is not some horrific oversight to Monk..He is/was simply a borderline candidate..3 pro bowls and 1 First Team All-Pro in 16 years? If he was THAT great then he would have been more recognized during his playing years as such..My memory is that he was never considered one of the "greats" in the game until he started approaching, and then broke the all-time receptions record...
It is debatable to say he is or is not HOF material. He got the standing O because he was a good guy and people have felt sorry for him over the years...Plus he's been one of the most debated HOF snubs over the past decade. I applauded myself simply so we don't have to hear the Redskins fans whining another year...lolol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Thanks for the heads up on Hayes! Glad I already have mine (PSA 7). Who are you taking with your second guess? Tingelhoff or Nobis?
Dave >>
Well, those were my two predictions, but with Hayes getting pushed it could be either of them or someone else. I guess i'll go with Nobis to get another defensive player in from the laundry list...
I was actually fairly surprised to hear the things I heard about Hayes getting a BIG push this year..With Monk going in 2008, Carter in 2009, Rice in 2010, I figured that Hayes might have to wait a bit longer...Especially since it was just a few years ago he was a senior selection that did NOT get the votes for induction (2004)...
Based on what I was told, at least 2 of the 5 senior voters going to Canton on 27 August plan on pushing Bob Hayes as the top senior candidate..If that happens, it would be a 99% given that he will be one of the selections.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
They've both made the cut to 15 from the SENIOR pool almost every year.
Here are the Senior semifinalists the last 5 years who are not yet in the HOF:
Dick Anderson DB 2004---Never a finalist John Brodie QB 2008---Never a finalist Charlie Conerly QB 2006, 2007---7 time finalist Pat Fischer DB 2007---Never a finalist Marshall Goldberg RB 2008---finalist as a Senior candidate in 1979 and 2008 LC Greenwood DE 2007, 2008---6 time finalist John Hadl QB 2006, 2008---Never a finalist Cliff Harris DB 2005, 2006, 2007---1 time finalist Bob Hayes WR 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---finalist as a Senior candidate in 2004 Chuck Howley LB 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist Claude Humphrey DE 2007, 2008---3 time finalist Lee Roy Jordan LB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007---1 time finalist Alex Karras DT 2004, 2006---Never a finalist Jerry Kramer OL 2008---10 time finalist Dick LeBeau DB 2004, 2006---Never a finalist Floyd Little RB 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist Jim Marshall DE 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---1 time finalist Tommy Nobis LB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist Pete Retzlaff TE 2006---Never a finalist Dave Robinson LB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist Johnny Robinson DB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008---6 time finalist Ed Sprinkle DE 2006---Never a finalist Otis Taylor WR 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist Mick Tinglehoff OL 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist Billy Wilson WR 2005, 2007---Never a finalist Al Wistert OL 2008---Never a finalist
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here are the other current Senior eligible players who were MODERN finalists at one time, but have not been close in the recent senior voting:
Randy Gradishar-2 time modern finalist, this will be his first year in the Senior pool Jim Tyrer-Modern finalist in 1981, his only time Big Daddy Lipscomb- 2 time modern finalist, last time was 1977 Rosey Grier- Modern finalist in 1973, his only time Mac Speedie- 2 time modern finalist, last time was 1972 Duke Slater- 2 time modern finalist (this was before they started the Senior committee) in 70/71 Beattie Feathers- 1 time, 1970 (pre-Senior)
As you can see, very short list..For the most part, guys who were modern finalists either eventually got in, or have been close in the Senior voting.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>do you not think it will be Johnny Robinsons time next year? It is long overdue. >>
Doubtful, simply because they just inducted a senior candidate who played on the same team in the same defensive backfield, Emmitt Thomas...Not sure what went into Thomas leapfrogging Robinson..I say this because Robinson was a 6 time modern finalist while Emmitt Thomas never once was a modern finalist. Also, 2008 was the first time that Emmitt Thomas had made the final 15 seniors, while Robinson was in the final group 4 of the last 5 years...So seemingly, Robinson had been getting more support over the years than Thomas.
With Thomas getting voted in, I think Robinson is going to have a while longer to wait..Maybe a long while...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ok...I guess what I meant was why neither of them ever made the final 15 when they were modern candidates? It seems they would have at least gotten a sniff if they were HOF worthy now?
Jason - Didn't Bob Hayes get a big push last year too?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Not sure what went into Thomas leapfrogging Robinson..I say this because Robinson was a 6 time modern finalist while Emmitt Thomas never once was a modern finalist.
WELL I THINK IT WAS THE YEAR OF THE SKINS that pushed him over the top .Since he coached in Washington so long durring the years of Art @ Green was Darrells dback coach it just made the time right
Now for us Skins fans crying dont worry Jason i will just move on to lobbying for the Hogs, We will strt with Grimm and go from there
Comments
Jim Hart
Tommy Nobis
Maxie Baughan
Jerry Kramer
Ken Anderson
Ray Guy
Alex Karras
L.C. Greenwood
Robert Brazile
Bob Kuechenberg
Randy Gradishar
Jasen
By Jerry Magee
UNION-TRIBUNE
July 27, 2008
Paul Tagliabue endorsed Jack Kemp for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
A touchy matter, this. Reference is to Jack Kemp's candidacy for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and, more particularly, Paul Tagliabue's support of it.
There is no problem here with Kemp's position. He escorted the Buffalo Bills to AFL championships in 1964 and 1965, each time in championship games maneuvering his side to conquests of the San Diego franchise that had surrendered him to the Bills for a $100 waiver claim. No Chargers quarterback – and I have observed them all – possessed the arm strength of Kemp. After fielding his fastballs in practice, receivers would leave the field with welts on their forearms. The man could bring it.
What makes me uncomfortable is Tagliabue's endorsement of Kemp. He expressed it in a letter to Joe Horrigan, an executive of the hall, and Horrigan forwarded it to the nine members of the hall's senior selection committee, on which I am privileged to serve.
I bring up this point with the greatest hesitancy. The hall's position is that expressions of support for a possible inductee are “for your eyes only,” in this instance meaning my eyes and the eyes of the eight others charged with weighing the merits of veteran candidates – those whose careers concluded at least 25 years ago.
I want to say here that in my thinking, the greatest honor that can come to a football writer is to have a voice in who is chosen for the hall. Anybody with any feeling for football as it is when it is played for money would feel this way. I have been twice blessed, first when I was included on the overall selection committee, later when I was tapped to sit in judgment on the veteran candidates. I revere the hall. Never have I flouted its standards. In this matter, however, I must.
Kemp, I want to emphasize, is blameless. The fault I find is with Tagliabue. As the former commissioner of the NFL, I do not believe he should have lent his name in supporting any candidate, certainly not one who has a continuing association with the league. Kemp serves as chairman of the board of USA Football, which acts to champion football, not football as it is played in the NFL or in the high schools and colleges, but all football, the game. Further, he is a board member of NFL Youth Football.
For Tagliabue to have singled out Kemp for his support simply was wrong, for several reasons. In his letter, the former commissioner cites Kemp's “profound impact on society with his almost two decades of service in the United States House of Representatives, his position as a candidate for Vice President of the United States, his leadership on issues of fairness, entrepreneurship and civil and human rights in our society, and as the former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.”
Kemp, indeed, is an individual of the highest quality, but by the hall's dictum, only what a person does on the field should be considered in deciding whether to have his bust displayed in the corridors of the Canton shrine. At a time when Lawrence Taylor's conduct would not have been viewed as exemplary, Taylor was a hall finalist. Properly, according to the hall's standards, he was accepted.
Citizenship is not at issue here. Whether one wins election to the hall is based purely on deeds performed between those white lines.
I also have to question if Tagliabue saw enough of Kemp to adjudge his merits as a quarterback. When Kemp was beginning his tenure with the then-Los Angeles Chargers in 1960, Tagliabue, now 67, was 19 and on the other side of the country, attending Georgetown University, from which he would become an honors graduate in 1962.
Something else disturbs me. Horrigan, the finest of men, included written messages of support for Kemp and one other senior candidate with the ballot on which the senior electors were charged with naming the 15 persons whose candidacies are to be debated in a meeting in Canton on Aug. 27. It would have been possible to interpret the inclusion of these messages as an indication that the hall was recommending these two.
Each year, I might note, five of the nine members of the senior committee get together to select the two senior candidates who are to be presented to the overall selection committee. This is not my year to go to Canton. I wish I were going. Not being there, I won't be able to champion John Hadl, should he make the cut to 15. Hadl last year received a sympathetic hearing by the committee. He is a most meritorious candidate.
As a football player, Kemp, too, is a viable candidate, with his 10 years as a professional, 21,218 yards passing and 114 TDs. This is how he should be considered – as a football player, only that. Mark that, Paul Tagliabue.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Great article - thanks for sharing. Has the senior finalist list of 15 been "released" yet? I'm pretty sure the list of the 15 senior finalists is already set and the 2 senior finalists will be chosen from that list at the end of August....right?
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
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E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jason,
Great article - thanks for sharing. Has the senior finalist list of 15 been "released" yet? I'm pretty sure the list of the 15 senior finalists is already set and the 2 senior finalists will be chosen from that list at the end of August....right?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Greg, I asked the same question to one of the Senior Committee voters that I know. The 9 members just received the preliminary list of candidates last week and they have 2 weeks to re-submit their 15 choices back to the HOF so they can tally the votes. So, most likely they won't have the semifinal list of 15 for another week or 2. Last year, they did not release that list of 15 to the public, but I was able to obtain it a week or so prior.
I'll keep my ear to the ground and pass the info if/when I hear anything..Worst case, we will find out the final 2 before we know who the 15 were. Eventually it will get leaked though. I always like to know who they are ahead of time so I can be sure to either own all 15, or at worst have an idea where to find any that I don't...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>So what's everyone's predictions for the 2 senior candidates this year? I honestly don't have a clue, so I can't even hazard a guess. Maybe I'll go with Bob Hayes and ? >>
I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year.
Jasen
<< <i>I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year. >>
My question would be why? Kemp only played 8 full seasons, had as many as 20 TD passes just once, and retired with 114 TDs and 183 INTs. That's one hundred and eighty three interceptions. As erratic as the voting can be at times, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get in. But his stats are FAR from hall worthy.
I only know who 3 of the 5 senior selectors going to the 27 August meeting are so far, and it looks like a strong/good group. Not the old fogies they had last year, so hopes are high for good selections.
My top 10 for this year:
MICK TINGELHOFF...Top senior candidate on the board IMO, has been very close the last 4 years..I give him 80% chance
TOMMY NOBIS..Mr. Falcon should be the first Atlanta player inducted...I'd say 90% that a LB will get selected this year, simply because it is the strongest position in the Senior pool, 60% it's Nobis
CHUCK HOWLEY...Howley could easily be the choice over Nobis...They are very different players, so will basically boil down to which type of guy the voters value more..I'd give him a 40% chance
CLAUDE HUMPHREY...Very deserving, but I have to think Nobis will go in before Humphrey..Especially with Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent so close on the modern ballot..20%
L.C. GREENWOOD...Either Greenwood or Humphrey will get in within the next 3-4 years..They both belong.. 20% shot
JERRY KRAMER...Another LONG overdue guy...If Kuechenberg somehow gets pushed back to the Senior pool after this year, Kramer's wait will be even longer..10% longshot
RANDY GRADISHAR...First year on the Senior ballot, he will stay high in the rankings here before eventually getting in, but I'd be shocked if it were this year though.. 10%
DAVE ROBINSON...Another of the long list of great LBs who have thus far been snubbed...I'd say the 3 before him are more deserving, plus Kramer is the better Packer choice..Still a strong candidate... 5% this year
BOB HAYES...I think he will eventually get another shot at the HOF, but IMO, will be after the current group (Carter, Rice, Brown, Reed) all get out of the way. Based on this years voters, don't rule him out..At least one of the 5 selectors was the guy who championed Hayes back in 2004...5% this year
CLIFF HARRIS..He would be higher on my list if Emmitt Thomas weren't selected last year..A 2nd DB from the same era in consecutive years? 5%
All others I'd give 1%...Note that Emmitt Thomas and Marshall Goldberg were probably the LONGEST of shots last year, yet they were selected..You really never know which way the voters will go, but as I said before...I have a good feeling that this years selectors won't go after the old timers and/or try to make some out of left field choice...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year. >>
My question would be why? Kemp only played 8 full seasons, had as many as 20 TD passes just once, and retired with 114 TDs and 183 INTs. That's one hundred and eighty three interceptions. As erratic as the voting can be at times, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get in. But his stats are FAR from hall worthy. >>
Agreed...I would choose Conerly, Hadl and Brodie over Kemp by a landslide, and i think most of the voters would do the same...
I think the "push" he received from Tagliabue will do exactly nothing for Kemp..Taglibue can't (and may never) get in, so why would the Senior voters take his word for it over there own beliefs on who belongs?
The answer is, they won't..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
QB- CHARLIE CONERLY JOHN HADL JOHN BRODIE
RB- FLOYD LITTLE
WR- BOB HAYES OTIS TAYLOR LAVIE DILWEG DEL SHOFNER MAC SPEEDIE DREW PEARSON BILLY WILSON
TE- PETE RETZLAFF
OC- MICK TINGELHOFF
OG- JERRY KRAMER DICK STANFEL RILEY MATHESON DICK BARWEGAN ED BUDDE OX EMERSON JIM MCMILLIEN
OT- AL WISTERT JIM TYRER
DE- CLAUDE HUMPHREY L.C. GREENWOOD JIM MARSHALL GENE BRITO RICH JACKSON ED SPRINKLE
DT- ALEX KARRAS GENE LIPSCOMB
LB- TOMMY NOBIS CHUCK HOWLEY RANDY GRADISHAR DAVE ROBINSON CHRIS HANBURGER LEE ROY JORDAN ANDY RUSSELL
CB- JACK BUTLER BOBBY DILLON DICK LEBEAU LEMAR PARRISH PAT FISCHER
S- CLIFF HARRIS JOHNNY ROBINSON JIMMY PATTON DICK ANDERSON
This is everyone I feel is a HOF quality player or at a minimum has been a Senior semifinalist the past 5 years...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would give Hadl a slight nudge over Conerly...jmho. Also, I would love to see Al Wistert in the HOF. He is 95 and still sharp as a tack. I've gotten 5 or 6 cards autographed from him and he will write a page to page and a half note every time.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jason,
I would give Hadl a slight nudge over Conerly...jmho. Also, I would love to see Al Wistert in the HOF. He is 95 and still sharp as a tack. I've gotten 5 or 6 cards autographed from him and he will write a page to page and a half note every time.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Me too Greg..I really thought he would be the "old timer" choice last year, but for some idiotic reason they went with Goldberg instead...I'd be really surprised if a pre-1950 player is selected again this year..
The reason I like Conerly over Hadl is that Conerly was a league MVP and Championship winning QB of some of the historic Ginats teams of the 50's...Hadl has bigger stats though, and was a big part of Lance Alworth's AFL success. I wouldn't have a problem with either going in or even John Brodie, I think all are borderline HOF quality for varying reasons...But to be honest, the next Senior QB to make the HOF will very likely be Ken Stabler down the road...I don't know if Conerly, Hadl or Brodie will ever get in...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I heard a strong push is being made for Jack Kemp this year. >>
My question would be why? Kemp only played 8 full seasons, had as many as 20 TD passes just once, and retired with 114 TDs and 183 INTs. That's one hundred and eighty three interceptions. As erratic as the voting can be at times, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get in. But his stats are FAR from hall worthy. >>
Was actually just trying to make a joke, playing off the article Jason posted. I don't think Kemp belongs in the Hall based upon his on-field performance either. You did get all riled up, though.....maybe you would even put Stabler in front of him??? LOL
Jasen
<< <i>Just a reminder to you guys that tonight on NFL Network is the Top 10 "should-be" HOFers, 8pm ET I believe. My tivo is all set!
Jasen >>
Here's the top 10 from the show (Where I would rank these 10 in parenthesis):
1-Jerry Kramer (3)
2-Derrick Thomas (2)
3-Cris Carter (1)
4-Jim Marshall (9)
5-Bob Hayes (4)
6-Ken Stabler (6)
7-Ricky Watters (8)
8-Alex Karras (5)
9-Steve Tasker (10)
10- Ken Anderson (7)
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Gerald Louis "Jerry" Kramer (born January 23, 1936, in Jordan, Montana) is a former professional football player, author and sports commentator, best remembered for his 11-year NFL career with the Green Bay Packers as an offensive lineman. As a 6'3", 250 lb. right guard, #64 was an integral part of the famous "Packer Sweep", a signature play in which both guards rapidly pull out from their normal positions and lead-block for the running back going around the end. Kramer was an All-Pro five times, and a member of the NFL's 50th anniversary team in 1969, but surprisingly, even after appearing on the list of finalists ten times since becoming eligible, has not been inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He was inducted into the Green Bay Packers Hall of Fame in 1975.et's hope so, I've long believed he should already be in the HOF.
<< <i>I wonder if Kramer will get an extra push for the HOF based on that. You never know I guess. >>
There were quite a few HOF voters who were part of the show, making comments on the players and such...
He's definitely one of the stronger senior candidates..I ranked him 6th out of all the seniors...No reason he couldn't be one of the two..If he is, he will trump Tingelhoff and I think the 2nd guy will still be a defensive player, either a LB or DL...Nobis got a mention on the show...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>My positional rankings for the current Senior candidates:
QB- CHARLIE CONERLY JOHN HADL JOHN BRODIE
RB- FLOYD LITTLE
WR- BOB HAYES OTIS TAYLOR LAVIE DILWEG DEL SHOFNER MAC SPEEDIE DREW PEARSON BILLY WILSON
TE- PETE RETZLAFF
OC- MICK TINGELHOFF
OG- JERRY KRAMER DICK STANFEL RILEY MATHESON DICK BARWEGAN ED BUDDE OX EMERSON JIM MCMILLIEN
OT- AL WISTERT JIM TYRER
DE- CLAUDE HUMPHREY L.C. GREENWOOD JIM MARSHALL GENE BRITO RICH JACKSON ED SPRINKLE
DT- ALEX KARRAS GENE LIPSCOMB
LB- TOMMY NOBIS CHUCK HOWLEY RANDY GRADISHAR DAVE ROBINSON CHRIS HANBURGER LEE ROY JORDAN ANDY RUSSELL
CB- JACK BUTLER BOBBY DILLON DICK LEBEAU LEMAR PARRISH PAT FISCHER
S- CLIFF HARRIS JOHNNY ROBINSON JIMMY PATTON DICK ANDERSON
This is everyone I feel is a HOF quality player or at a minimum has been a Senior semifinalist the past 5 years...
Jason >>
Nice rankings Jason. Nice to see you remember an old, old school Packer great in Lavie Dilweg. A well deserving old end who most have forgotten about after Don Hutson came along.
Where's halfback Verne Lewellen? Another Packers great from the same era. I think he was the leading Packers scorer until Hutson broke his team mark. Also was one of the greatest, if not the greatest punter of his era. First team All-league from '26-29. Key member of three straight NFL championship teams from '29-31. Scored 37 TD's, did it all really. Great two-way player.
The four deserving Packers lacking from the HOF are: Dilweg, Lewellan, D. Robinson, and J. Kramer.
About the only guy on the list I don't like is RB F. Little. When a lot of your voted him as the future senior running back I didn't get it then either. He was no better than Paul Lowe, Abner Haynes, or Clem Daniels. Little had five very good to great years. He also had some very poor years too. Never played on a winner. I don't know. Lowe and Haynes were in many championship games and have much higher averages rushing the ball. Haynes was Little's equal in returning kicks. Daniels had little peer out of the backfield receiving the ball. He's so overlooked. What a great player.
The rest of your list is spot on imho. Nice selections.
Rich
Level 1
Ground floor of The Pyramid ... designated for marginal guys who were considered "Borderline Hall of Famers," either had a great career, but not long enough, or were very good for a long time, rarely great ... anyone voted in simply because they reached a benchmark would be thrown in here ... you could even include players who broke significant individual records.
Level 2
Second floor of The Pyramid ... not quite as cluttered, not as much space ... reserved for guys who were definitely Hall of Famers, but didn't quite possess a Level 3 resume for one or more of the following reasons:
1. Their team never won a Championship.
2. Something was missing from their career totals.
3. They never enjoyed an outrageously great, award winning single season.
4. Somebody else played their position during their time who was better.
5. Their career was shortened by injury and/or rapidly declining skills.
Level 3
Reserved for the "No-Doubt-About-It" Hall of Famers ... these guys were undoubtedly the best at their position for years and years, with all the requisite "resume" stats to match ... unfortunately, there's a distinct, crucial difference between Level 3 and Level 4 (explanation coming).
Level 4
These are basically "L3" guys, only there's something just inherently "greater" about them. Some possible indications:
1. Do you have to consider them in any "best of all-time" discussions?
2. Did they have transcendent games or memorable moments?
3. Were they just dominant/unstoppable during there era?
5. Will you always remember watching them play, even when you're 80 years old and peeing on yourself?
Level 5
Take a deep breath. Level 5 is the top of the pyramid, literally and figuratively. You can rattle the L5 guys off the top of your head: Johnny Unitas, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice. That's Level 5. The best of the best. The Pantheon.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
MICK TINGELHOFF...L2
TOMMY NOBIS..L2
CHUCK HOWLEY...L2
CLAUDE HUMPHREY...L2
L.C. GREENWOOD...L2
JERRY KRAMER...L2
RANDY GRADISHAR...L1
DAVE ROBINSON...L1
BOB HAYES...L1
CLIFF HARRIS..L1
And the NFL Network Top 10 list:
1-Jerry Kramer...L2
2-Derrick Thomas...L4
3-Cris Carter...L3
4-Jim Marshall...L1
5-Bob Hayes...L1
6-Ken Stabler...L1
7-Ricky Watters...L1
8-Alex Karras...L1
9-Steve Tasker...L1
10- Ken Anderson...L1
Based on this, IMO, L2 and above are guys that should NO DOUBT be in the HOF..L1 guys are always going to be borderline, no matter if they get elected or not..There are plenty of L1 guys in the HOF already, but that doesn't make others any more worthy...These are the guys who, no question in my mind SHOULD be in the HOF already.
Modern--
Derrick Thomas...L4
Cris Carter...L3
Randall McDaniel..L3
Dermontti Dawson..L3
Richard Dent..L2
Bob Kuechenberg...L2
Seniors--
Mick Tingelhoff...L2
Tommy Nobis...L2
Chuck Howley...L2
Claude Humphrey...L2
LC Greenwood...L2
Jerry Kramer...L2
For the first ballot guys coming in 2009:
Bruce Smith...L4
Rod Woodson...L4
Shannon Sharpe...L3
John Randle...L2
Lastly, comparing to the last 3 HOF classes:
Fred Dean..L1
Darrell Green...L4
Art Monk...L2
Emmitt Thomas...L1
Andre Tippett...L2
Gary Zimmerman...L3
Gene Hickerson...L2
Michael Irvin...L3
Bruce Matthews...L4
Charlie Sanders...L1
Thurman Thomas...L3
Roger Wehrli...L1
Troy Aikman...L4
Harry Carson...L2
John Madden...L1
Warren Moon...L3
Reggie White...L5
Rayfield Wright...L2
So in the past 3 classes, the voters have put in borderline modern candidates Fred Dean, Roger Wehrli while NOT putting in Derrick Thomas, Cris Carter, Randall McDaniel and Dermontti Dawson...The Senior Committee has selected Emmitt Thomas, Charlie Sanders and Jon Madden while NOT selecting any of the top L2 senior guys..Of course these are all based entirely on my opinion, but I'd really like to know how the voters can justify it..I wish they were held accountable for their votes..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Please PM.
Fuzz
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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Many dealers were offering raw vintage well over SMR for the grade they were "suggesting" the card was. Several tables had some great deals and most dealers seemed to have positive comments about Wednesday and Thursday. Friday was a bit slow and bodes for a softer weekend. We'll see, but hopefully that means plenty of good buys on the material that still remains - - and there's plenty!
I would have to say that the selection this year is some of the best in recent memory. Whether looking for raw or graded vintage or vintage non-sport, there seems to be plenty of it. The only thing that seemed to be poorly represented was vintage hockey and pre-1972 basketball.
Looking forward to two more great days and if anyone is around, drop me a PM . . . I'd love to meet you if you've got the time!
Jasen
You had to love the big hand for the quite man 4+ mins standing O for Art Monk and it was not just the fans but the other HOF,ers says a lot.
Congrats to all of them
<< <i>Any news from The National? >>
Yep. It sucked. At least, I was very disappointed. Some guys were impressed, I really wasn't.
I met Joey Squires and Scott (otw). Nice guys, a little uglier than I expected though.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>
<< <i>Any news from The National? >>
Yep. It sucked. At least, I was very disappointed. Some guys were impressed, I really wasn't.
I met Joey Squires and Scott (otw). Nice guys, a little uglier than I expected though. >>
LOL
thats funny Josh, I met your wife in a stall in the mens room
Great to meet you JT and see you hard at work cruising the aisles, suitcase in tow. Sorry we couldnt hook up for dinner.
I didnt end up with much, there was alot of really high priced graded stuff, people wanted alot for their marginal raw stuff. I ended up buying a gai 8 57 topps wax pack. Rick Snyder found a psa 9 Paul Warfield for me that I was happy to see, he also agreed to sell a box of new kids on the block wax packs I bought on consignment
I tried really hard to get someone to buy Scott OTW's Bednarik psa 5, but his tattoos and mohawk scared them off.
met Paul (wolfbear), he was even sober at the time, so thats a good thing. He was wearing black socks and flip flops, past memorial day even, major fashion sin
Met Joe T (allen alan) and his dad, great guys who obviously love the hobby. Joes a nuclear engineer, who knew that?
Met Joey O (Orlando) at a restaurant we were having dinner at, he's much more handsome in person than in his "taking his hacks" photo. I told him I was a huge fan of his wiwag deposition.
Got Rezza (the grader o' death ) to autograph my SMR magazine while we were at dinner, thinking about sending it into PSA/ DNA to see if they will authenticate it
Had alot of fun, meeting the people you talk to and see post everyday, looking at cards, wandering the halls, drinking, eating, and having my flight back to sunny tropical portland from chicago delayed 4 hours on friday.
Twas a shame you couldnt make it Marc, but Ill see you in vegas at the craps table in a few months
Joe
<< <i>I met Joey Squires and Scott (otw). Nice guys, a little uglier than I expected though. >>
Publius wrote:
<< <i>I tried really hard to get someone to buy Scott OTW's Bednarik psa 5, but his tattoos and mohawk scared them off.
Nice meeting both of you, too. You're right Joe, that mohawk is a real turn-off and a sales killer. Amazing that I can sell homes looking like that! Once I figure out how to grow the hair back in the spot that a mohawk grows, I'll be sure to do something about it!
Wish I had met a couple others that were down there, but I was so busy at work I didn't get time to post on here and make any plans. I too am sorry we missed dinner. I'll give you a buzz this week though and we can chat. By the way, that "RAM" place is terrible. Absolutely f'n terrible. Should've went to Lou Malnatti's instead. That's twice I've missed it. Anyway, the Sun Times show is in November I think, you could fly in then. I'm going to try and make it down there.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
But just wanted to give some advice...If you do not own a Bob Hayes RC, you might want to grab one prior to 27 August...
You heard it here first...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>So who watched the inductions last night ?
You had to love the big hand for the quite man 4+ mins standing O for Art Monk and it was not just the fans but the other HOF,ers says a lot. >>
That's because everybody on the planet, excepting about half a dozen people, knew he belonged there long ago.
Shag, did you catch Green's whole speech? He followed that up by saying that he had been blessed with the fame and influence he had in order to spread the Gospel. That's not really a view I share personally, but it wasn't the spasm of self-indulgence that ESPN's highlights made it look like.
<< <i>That's because everybody on the planet, excepting about half a dozen people, knew he belonged there long ago. >>
Count me in that half dozen I guess...Do i think he is HOF caliber? Yes, but he's borderline. Monk is/was and always will be FAR from the FIRST BALLOT LOCK HOFer that most Redskins fans believe he was. So what, he waited 8 years..He probably should have waited longer, because Cris Carter was a better WR than Art Monk and should have went in this year. Monk FINALLY got the sympathy votes because many of the voters have grown tired of debating his name every year.
Let's look at all of the modern-era HOF WRs and how long they had to wait...
Lance Alworth..First ballot
Raymond Berry...First ballot
Steve Largent..First ballot
Paul Warfield..First ballot
Charley Taylor...Waited 2 years (also retired as the all-time receptions leader)
Michael Irvin...Waited 3 years
Charlie Joiner...Waited 5 years (also retired all-time receptions leader)
Fred Biletnikoff...Waited 5 years
James Lofton...Waited 5 years
Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch...Waited 7 years
Tom Fears...Waited 8 years
Art Monk...Waited 8 years
Pete Pihos...Waited 8 years
Don Maynard...Waited 9 years (also retired as the all-time receptions leader)
Bobby Mitchell...Waited 10 years
John Stallworth...Waited 10 years
Dante Lavelli...Waited 13 years
Lynn Swann..Waited 14 years
Tommy McDonald...Waited 25 years
Sorry, but 8 years is not some horrific oversight to Monk..He is/was simply a borderline candidate..3 pro bowls and 1 First Team All-Pro in 16 years? If he was THAT great then he would have been more recognized during his playing years as such..My memory is that he was never considered one of the "greats" in the game until he started approaching, and then broke the all-time receptions record...
It is debatable to say he is or is not HOF material. He got the standing O because he was a good guy and people have felt sorry for him over the years...Plus he's been one of the most debated HOF snubs over the past decade. I applauded myself simply so we don't have to hear the Redskins fans whining another year...lolol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Thanks for the heads up on Hayes! Glad I already have mine (PSA 7). Who are you taking with your second guess? Tingelhoff or Nobis?
Dave >>
Well, those were my two predictions, but with Hayes getting pushed it could be either of them or someone else. I guess i'll go with Nobis to get another defensive player in from the laundry list...
I was actually fairly surprised to hear the things I heard about Hayes getting a BIG push this year..With Monk going in 2008, Carter in 2009, Rice in 2010, I figured that Hayes might have to wait a bit longer...Especially since it was just a few years ago he was a senior selection that did NOT get the votes for induction (2004)...
Based on what I was told, at least 2 of the 5 senior voters going to Canton on 27 August plan on pushing Bob Hayes as the top senior candidate..If that happens, it would be a 99% given that he will be one of the selections.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Here are the Senior semifinalists the last 5 years who are not yet in the HOF:
Dick Anderson DB 2004---Never a finalist
John Brodie QB 2008---Never a finalist
Charlie Conerly QB 2006, 2007---7 time finalist
Pat Fischer DB 2007---Never a finalist
Marshall Goldberg RB 2008---finalist as a Senior candidate in 1979 and 2008
LC Greenwood DE 2007, 2008---6 time finalist
John Hadl QB 2006, 2008---Never a finalist
Cliff Harris DB 2005, 2006, 2007---1 time finalist
Bob Hayes WR 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---finalist as a Senior candidate in 2004
Chuck Howley LB 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist
Claude Humphrey DE 2007, 2008---3 time finalist
Lee Roy Jordan LB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007---1 time finalist
Alex Karras DT 2004, 2006---Never a finalist
Jerry Kramer OL 2008---10 time finalist
Dick LeBeau DB 2004, 2006---Never a finalist
Floyd Little RB 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist
Jim Marshall DE 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---1 time finalist
Tommy Nobis LB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist
Pete Retzlaff TE 2006---Never a finalist
Dave Robinson LB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist
Johnny Robinson DB 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008---6 time finalist
Ed Sprinkle DE 2006---Never a finalist
Otis Taylor WR 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist
Mick Tinglehoff OL 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008---Never a finalist
Billy Wilson WR 2005, 2007---Never a finalist
Al Wistert OL 2008---Never a finalist
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Randy Gradishar-2 time modern finalist, this will be his first year in the Senior pool
Jim Tyrer-Modern finalist in 1981, his only time
Big Daddy Lipscomb- 2 time modern finalist, last time was 1977
Rosey Grier- Modern finalist in 1973, his only time
Mac Speedie- 2 time modern finalist, last time was 1972
Duke Slater- 2 time modern finalist (this was before they started the Senior committee) in 70/71
Beattie Feathers- 1 time, 1970 (pre-Senior)
As you can see, very short list..For the most part, guys who were modern finalists either eventually got in, or have been close in the Senior voting.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>do you not think it will be Johnny Robinsons time next year? It is long overdue. >>
Doubtful, simply because they just inducted a senior candidate who played on the same team in the same defensive backfield, Emmitt Thomas...Not sure what went into Thomas leapfrogging Robinson..I say this because Robinson was a 6 time modern finalist while Emmitt Thomas never once was a modern finalist. Also, 2008 was the first time that Emmitt Thomas had made the final 15 seniors, while Robinson was in the final group 4 of the last 5 years...So seemingly, Robinson had been getting more support over the years than Thomas.
With Thomas getting voted in, I think Robinson is going to have a while longer to wait..Maybe a long while...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
WELL I THINK IT WAS THE YEAR OF THE SKINS that pushed him over the top .Since he coached in Washington so long durring the years of Art @ Green was Darrells dback coach it just made the time right
Now for us Skins fans crying dont worry Jason i will just move on to lobbying for the Hogs, We will strt with Grimm and go from there
And for the Sr list whats up with old # 55