Lol. Yeah, thanks Art. That one I actually got 75 cents more than I paid. Of course after ebay fees, it'll be a 10% loss. lol
I do appreciate the bids though. It was languishing around that $12 mark for about 5 days, I was a little worried it might not break the $30 mark.
I know $5 or $10 / card doesn't seem like much but when you consider they only sell for $30-50, it's a huge percentage decrease, and over 30 cards, that makes all the difference in the world.
For everyone else: The Larry Wilson 8.5 has been sold. The lucky owner can identify themselves when they choose. The other .5 cards are still available if anyone is interested.
Oi, Josh, don't look at me... I paid a bit over VCP average for the Lavelli. Don't worry, if you ever come to your senses and rejoin the HOFer set, consider it yours for what I paid for it... plus rental fees.
<< <i>Good Luck Tom, I hope you fare better than I did.
For everyone else: The Larry Wilson 8.5 has been sold. The lucky owner can identify themselves when they choose. The other .5 cards are still available if anyone is interested. >>
Wouldn't be hard to figure out...Just check the updated sets..
Also won't be hard to figure out who picked up the PSA 9 1971 Roger Wehrli from ebay. Seller ended early WITH bids, and whoever asked him to end early did so with bids already on it..I put a $500 bid on within 1 minute of the item being listed, so whoever made the request to end early did so even though others were already bidding on it...
Not sure how everyone else feels on the subject..Personally, I have no problem ending items early or with sellers that end items early that have ZERO bids...But once a card has others bidding, to me seems like you are pulling the rug out from under other obviously interested buyers...
Most likely I will block that seller from bidding on any of my cards and likewise won't bid on any of his in the future. I started doing this about 6 months-1 year ago when I see this happen. I'm fairly certain a HOF RC collector picked up the Wehrli by making an offer after bidding had already started on the card. If they e-mailed the seller prior to my bid within the first minute then I wouldn't have any problem with that, but making offers to end early after bidding has begun is BS IMO and something needs to be done about it.
Maybe we should start a bad business list of buyers/sellers.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Good Luck Tom, I hope you fare better than I did.
For everyone else: The Larry Wilson 8.5 has been sold. The lucky owner can identify themselves when they choose. The other .5 cards are still available if anyone is interested. >>
Wouldn't be hard to figure out...Just check the updated sets..
Also won't be hard to figure out who picked up the PSA 9 1971 Roger Wehrli from ebay. Seller ended early WITH bids, and whoever asked him to end early did so with bids already on it..I put a $500 bid on within 1 minute of the item being listed, so whoever made the request to end early did so even though others were already bidding on it...
Not sure how everyone else feels on the subject..Personally, I have no problem ending items early or with sellers that end items early that have ZERO bids...But once a card has others bidding, to me seems like you are pulling the rug out from under other obviously interested buyers...
Most likely I will block that seller from bidding on any of my cards and likewise won't bid on any of his in the future. I started doing this about 6 months-1 year ago when I see this happen. I'm fairly certain a HOF RC collector picked up the Wehrli by making an offer after bidding had already started on the card. If they e-mailed the seller prior to my bid within the first minute then I wouldn't have any problem with that, but making offers to end early after bidding has begun is BS IMO and something needs to be done about it.
Maybe we should start a bad business list of buyers/sellers.
Jason >>
Jason:
While I agree that such a move is dirty pool, I'm not sure you can really blame the seller or the buyer. As a collector, such activity sucks. As a business person, the buyer most probably offered a price that was less than they were actually willing to pay while the seller probably figured that the offer was as much or more than they were going to realize and they would save the eBay FV fees.
I have made "end it" offers on items on eBay, but only when they had no bids (so I hopefully won't end up on your doo-doo list) and I've had a few accepted. I've also had offers on cards that I have had up for auction, but I have ALWAYS let the auction run. Probably because the offers have usually been lowball, but the point is, I'd rather follow through on what I have up even it I get less than I was offered.
The classic example of making an offer and having it rejected was a little over a year ago when I needed 4 cards to complete my Topps Mexican set. A seller posted three of the cards and I made significant offers on all three and inquired about whether they had the 4th. They did but rejected my offer. I ended up winning the three cards for about $600 LESS than I had offered and bought the 4th card for a fraction of what I would've paid for it. The seller actually told me that because of the price of my original offer, he thought he had "gold" and that I was trying to lowball him. The truth was, I needed the cards because I had a buyer once the set was complete and I had been hunting for those cards for months! Thankfully, no one else needed them as badly as I did.
I agree with you Scott. I have made end it offers as well on cards with no bids, and if that is what happened in this case then no harm no foul..But I would find it hard to believe as I placed a bid on the card within the first minute that it was listed.
To me, a card with no bids is no different than a card being sold here on the boards or on a buy it now. It's a free market card..But once you have bids, it's the same as me agreeing to sell you a card and then coming back later and changing my mind because someone else came in AFTER our agreement with a higher offer. That's just a lack of honesty and integrity IMO, and it is something that has run more than a couple of collector's out of the NFL HOF RC game that I know of. I came close to selling off and leaving myself not too long ago over a similar situation (someone selling a card to another collector for a higher price even though we already had an agreement and I had already sent payment..)
IMO, this seller 99.9% likely lost money by selling early..Its a POP 1, and there is no telling how high it would have gone. I was fully prepared to pay $1,000 and I doubt I would have won it with that bid.
Just seems like we, as a group, could probably make a big dent into some of these buyers/sellers bottom line and send a message that doing bad business to one of us will equal getting no business from a bunch of us..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Just seems like we, as a group, could probably make a big dent into some of these buyers/sellers bottom line and send a message that doing bad business to one of us will equal getting no business from a bunch of us.. >>
It sounds great in principle, but the problem lies in the fact that if several of us made a pact to boycott, the sellers may lose out on a few bucks, but in the long run, the underbidder that would normally be beaten by the boycotters would build a set at a significant savings.
I think a better alternative is to build a network of "associates" around the country and when one of these buyers or sellers violates "our etiquette," we send the associate to visit them and depending upon the severity, the associate will either pull the valve stems from their vehicle(s), take a Louisville Slugger to their knees, kidnap their dog, or leave my wife with them...
It sounds great in principle, but the problem lies in the fact that if several of us made a pact to boycott, the sellers may lose out on a few bucks, but in the long run, the underbidder that would normally be beaten by the boycotters would build a set at a significant savings.
I think a better alternative is to build a network of "associates" around the country and when one of these buyers or sellers violates "our etiquette," we send the associate to visit them and depending upon the severity, the associate will either pull the valve stems from their vehicle(s), take a Louisville Slugger to their knees, kidnap their dog, or leave my wife with them... >>
LOLOL...Well, I don't know that I would take it THAT far...
Honestly, I'd rather see someone build a set at significant savings then to give a dishonorable seller my money..Maybe that's just me...
Don't forget the buyer in all this either..If these buyers who are willing to backdoor someone and buy a card that's already "promised" to someone else start having their bids blocked and/or start being told "no" to trades and private sales maybe they would stop making offers on cards that are already spoken for..This stuff has been going on for awhile, and most seem to turn a blind eye to it...It has caused us to lose more than a couple of the "good guys" of the hobby already..How many other collectors need to say "F- this" and leave before we realize that allowing the bad business to occur without recourse has the potential to suck the fun out of this hobby and in the end make ALL of our collections less valuable. I think it hurts all of us here when this type of thing is prevalent in our neighborhood (NFL HOF RCs).
95%+ of the guys on this set are top notch and would never compromise their integrity for a couple of extra dollars. But that other 5% is going to ruin it for everyone.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There seems to be an interesting distinction made between auction lots that have bids already and those that do not. I am curious if you could place a lot with Mastro, Mile High, REA, etc. and then tell them to pull the lot once the auction has started b/c you have the item "sold". I don't know the answer to this, but I would think not. Should eBay be treated differently? It seems as though it is, since you can contact and negotiate with the seller directly. This tends to create a more informal auction environment where ending auctions early is part of the business. A couple weeks back a 79 Topps Bradshaw PSA 10 was listed that would have looked nice in my 79 set, but it ended early. Yeah, I was bummed, as I didn't get my chance to snipe it. At the same time, if the seller thought he could get more by ending early, that is his chioce under the eBay rules which allow the auction to end early if it is "no longer available." I tend to think that, more times than not, the seller accepts less than what he would have gotten if he had just let the auction run (see Jason's Wehrli example). I guess the bottom line is that even though it is allowable under eBay rules, it is frustrating for us as bidders. Just my 2 cents.
Note sure if anyone here has the firepower to pull it off, but there is a PSA 8 Nagurski in SCP's auction, which begins on Thursday. Lot # 230.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
It sounds great in principle, but the problem lies in the fact that if several of us made a pact to boycott, the sellers may lose out on a few bucks, but in the long run, the underbidder that would normally be beaten by the boycotters would build a set at a significant savings.
I think a better alternative is to build a network of "associates" around the country and when one of these buyers or sellers violates "our etiquette," we send the associate to visit them and depending upon the severity, the associate will either pull the valve stems from their vehicle(s), take a Louisville Slugger to their knees, kidnap their dog, or leave my wife with them... >>
LOLOL...Well, I don't know that I would take it THAT far... >>
You're right... Leaving my wife with them would be cruel and unusual punishment and probably a violation of the Geneva Convention.
<< <i>There seems to be an interesting distinction made between auction lots that have bids already and those that do not. I am curious if you could place a lot with Mastro, Mile High, REA, etc. and then tell them to pull the lot once the auction has started b/c you have the item "sold". I don't know the answer to this, but I would think not. Should eBay be treated differently? It seems as though it is, since you can contact and negotiate with the seller directly. This tends to create a more informal auction environment where ending auctions early is part of the business. A couple weeks back a 79 Topps Bradshaw PSA 10 was listed that would have looked nice in my 79 set, but it ended early. Yeah, I was bummed, as I didn't get my chance to snipe it. At the same time, if the seller thought he could get more by ending early, that is his chioce under the eBay rules which allow the auction to end early if it is "no longer available." I tend to think that, more times than not, the seller accepts less than what he would have gotten if he had just let the auction run (see Jason's Wehrli example). I guess the bottom line is that even though it is allowable under eBay rules, it is frustrating for us as bidders. Just my 2 cents.
Jasen >>
ebay doesn't allow it. The practice is actually considered a circumvention of ebay fees:
"Once an item is listed on eBay, you can not sell the item outside of eBay. You must sell it to the highest bidder. If your listing ends without a winning buyer, you can re-list the item. If the item sells the second time and qualifies for a re-list credit, eBay will refund the Insertion Fee for the re-listing."
Its a loophole, plain and simple, and the above includes ALL items, not just ones with bids...Its really up to each individual to decide what they think is fair. I know many of us do not like seeing items pulled out from under us that we have bids on and a reasonable belief that we could win the item via fair auction. If enough of us feel the same AND TAKE ACTION, I think we can limit and or end this practice at least when it pertains to HOF RCs...
At a minimum, we could consolidate a list of buyers and sellers who take part in this practice, which would help each of us when deciding who to spend our money with or who we sell our cards to.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>At a minimum, we could consolidate a list of buyers and sellers who take part in this practice, which would help each of us when deciding who to spend our money with or who we sell our cards to. >>
And when Jasen wants to sell his '48 Leo, he better let me know or my wife will be on the next plane out!
What came first the chicken or the egg . In my opion there is no difference to buying an item off line with a current bid or one without a bid, they both create the same outcome. Which is more and more buyers trying to buy off line in fear that they never get the chance to bid on the item period . Just an opion. And we all know opions are like ? I do agree with the fact that the majority of the time the seller loses out and leaves money on the table, because you only ever receive offers on the rare items. Its not like your selling a Howie Long PSA 8 off ebay.
By the way I read a great article on Gale Sayers that I never knew
Gale Sayers turned down Lamar Hunt the first time. He wouldn’t do it again. One of the greatest running backs in history accepted the Lamar Hunt Lifetime Achievement Award on Thursday night at the Sprint Center at the Kansas City Sports Commission’s annual banquet.
In 1965, after concluding a fabulous career at Kansas, Sayers was selected by the Chiefs in the first round of the AFL draft, the fifth overall pick.
He also was taken by the Chicago Bears in the NFL draft. Sayers was the Bears’ second choice in the first round, behind linebacker Dick Butkus.
Hunt, the Chiefs owner who died in 2006, had helped create the AFL in 1960. But when it came to the bottom line, the established league won out.
“I signed a four-year contract with the Bears for $25,000 a year,” Sayers said. “I thought (Hunt) would give me something better. He offered $27,500.
“I thought, ‘New league, no, I can’t do that.’ You didn’t know it was going to be a good league, so I decided to go with the Bears.”
And history was made — by both teams. In Chicago, Sayers became the stuff of legend. He was among the game’s first stop-on-a-dime, cut-back, juke-a-defender artists. Volumes of NFL Films are dedicated to the magic of Sayers’ 68-game career, sadly cut short by a knee injury.
The Chiefs survived nicely. Sayers accumulated big numbers as a running back and return specialist, but his Chicago teams never reached the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Chiefs were putting together some of the best teams in franchise history.
“If I went with Kansas City, they might not have drafted Mike Garrett the next year, and I probably would have been on the team that went to the Super Bowl,” Sayers said. “But I enjoyed my career, as short as it was.”
Sayers, known as the Kansas Comet during his Jayhawk days, was thrilled to watch his alma mater go 12-1 last season, finishing with an Orange Bowl victory. He sees no reason why Kansas can’t take a place among the group of schools that competes at the highest level nationally in football and basketball.
“If we can do it in basketball, why can’t we do it in football?” Sayers said. “There are too many programs around the country that have good football and good basketball.”
Sayers sees Kansas on the right track and pointed to athletic director Lew Perkins, who accepted the Citation for Amateur Sports Excellence Award on Thursday.
“The excellence can continue, but you still have to have the funding to go out and recruit top players,” Sayers said. “Lew Perkins is doing a great job, building up the facilities, and it’s allowing us to compete with the rest of the Big 12.”
Can you imagine how NFL history would have changed if Sayers would have joined Dawson , Otis Taylor , Buchanan and Bobby Bell on the same team . WOW !!!!
<< <i>Note sure if anyone here has the firepower to pull it off, but there is a PSA 8 Nagurski in SCP's auction, which begins on Thursday. Lot # 230. >>
Aaah, SCP is where that ended up huh?. A Nag-8 was being touted for sale behind the scenes a few months ago, and I was told it went to an auction house instead.
Hellooooo Kitty
As far as cards being sold off line of ebay once they've been listed, I hate it. I hate it when their aren't any bids on it, and I hate it when their are already bids on it even worse.
I dont think its cool for people to even ask for auctions to be ended early, but it happens. Ive had cards pulled out from under my bids before too, Im sure we all have and there's nothing we can do about it, forming committees or singing songs (I aint gonna play Sun City) about it, whatever. I just take note of parties involved and move on, another card will come along someday, they always do.
Jason I know you like to emal people and ask about ending auctions early. While I dont approve of it, like I said earlier, I understand it to be part of the game. I would chalk this up to someone just being a little craftier than you are and move on. .02
Jason I know you like to emal people and ask about ending auctions early. While I dont approve of it, like I said earlier, I understand it to be part of the game. I would chalk this up to someone just being a little craftier than you are and move on. .02 >>
I've never once e-mailed someone about a card with bids on it or that was already spoken for...And haven't e-mailed anyone to end a card WITHOUT bids in probably a year and most likely won't ever again...I didn't e-mail on the Wehrli either, rather I placed an early bid to let the seller know that other interested parties are out there...
I used to do it fairly often on cards without bids, mainly for the reason Dan pointed out which was to try to stay competitive with many others who were doing the same...I don't think that made it right, and even though I saved money at times, I also overpaid at other times...I haven't seen it happening all that much lately, and I attribute that to the fact that many of the collectors who were doing it no longer collect this set.
It's too bad that most will do the same as you and simply take note and move along...Basically gives those involved a free pass and just means it's more than likely to happen again and again...I don't think it would take many bad examples being set before most would no longer take part. Just my issue I guess..If not one else cares then so be it. I'll be "taking note" of these buyers and sellers from here on and will most likely post their names here for public consumption. What others choose to do with that info is each persons business. Personally, I won't be doing business with those buyers/sellers for any amount of money.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Alright, now it's my turn to chime in. I absolutely agree that ending an auction early that already has bidders is WRONG. I hate it when it happens and I too have been burned by greedy sellers who probably would have made more $$ if they simply let the auction run. If you are a seller on ebay, as we all are from time to time, why not list items as BIN/BO instead of ending the auction early?
I think you either have to make a choice to let the auction run it's course or decide a BIN/BO price, but if you choose the auction route then let it play out, period. I hate sellers that conduct business that way.
One final question, what are your thoughts on revealing the reserve amount to those who request it? I get requests regarding the reserve amount, but I do not reveal it as I believe it's unfair to other bidders and watchers.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>At a minimum, we could consolidate a list of buyers and sellers who take part in this practice, which would help each of us when deciding who to spend our money with or who we sell our cards to. >>
And when Jasen wants to sell his '48 Leo, he better let me know or my wife will be on the next plane out! >>
Actually, a little birdy told me to check the card again, as he believed it was mislabeled. Sure enough, I have the Leo red jersey instead of the maroon jersey. If you check the pop report, you'll see how rare the red jersey variety is, so the card is at PSA being re-labeled to indicate the correct Red Jersey variety. From there I will decide what to do with it. Don't be surprised if it ends up in an auction house sometime this fall. Thanks again to the little birdy!
<< <i>Alright, now it's my turn to chime in. I absolutely agree that ending an auction early that already has bidders is WRONG. I hate it when it happens and I too have been burned by greedy sellers who probably would have made more $$ if they simply let the auction run. If you are a seller on ebay, as we all are from time to time, why not list items as BIN/BO instead of ending the auction early?
I think you either have to make a choice to let the auction run it's course or decide a BIN/BO price, but if you choose the auction route then let it play out, period. I hate sellers that conduct business that way.
One final question, what are your thoughts on revealing the reserve amount to those who request it? I get requests regarding the reserve amount, but I do not reveal it as I believe it's unfair to other bidders and watchers.
Comments???
Doc >>
So what you are saying is if a seller chooses the auction route they should stick that way out, but you only mention that you think it's wrong if they end an auction with a bidder on it? So it's ok if there's no bidders?
Joe is absolutely right, just sounds like some whining involved here, and we all know $1,000 wouldn't even come close to winning that card.
So what you are saying is if a seller chooses the auction route they should stick that way out, but you only mention that you think it's wrong if they end an auction with a bidder on it? So it's ok if there's no bidders?
Joe is absolutely right, just sounds like some whining involved here, and we all know $1,000 wouldn't even come close to winning that card. >>
There were others bidding higher that i've talked to via e-mail. I think it's up to each individual to decide what is ok with them and what isnt..Sounds like you must not have a problem with a seller pulling a card even though they've already promised to sell to those who were already bidding on it...To me, that's the same as selling a card privately to a 2nd buyer even though you've already promised to sell to a 1st buyer simply because the 2nd guy came with a higher offer. If that's how you do business, then thanks for letting us know.
When there are no bidders, I personally don't feel that the seller has that responsibility yet and has not promised to sell the card to anyone as no one has staked any type of claim to that card. That being said, I do see how others would have an issue with it, mainly because it falls into the category of a card being pulled that was GOING to be offered in public sale yet was sold privately only after the buyer saw it listed on ebay.
Let's not reduce this issue to ONE card. This happens often, and has been going on for some time...We can't police all of ebay, but I think if we had 5-10 of the top HOF RC buyers start boycotting sellers/buyers who do this, 99% of it would disappear from the NFL HOF RC area at least.
Again, everyone gets to choose where to draw their own line here. My point is that we SHOULD at a minimum being drawing one. For me, being honest there just are not that many cards that I even need for the set anymore..My main concern is for the up and coming collectors who need multiple cards and are just getting into building their set. I'd hate to see collectors run off or be discouraged because of something like this. That hurts the long-term value of all of our collections.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
To me, once a seller decides to auction an item, it is an auction, end of discussion. Whether it has bids or not, unless there is some outside occurrence (and I don't mean a private message to buy it now or something like that) it should run it's full course.
I'm sure we all have our own things that make us draw the line and choose not to bid on certain items despite needing/wanting them for our collections. I'm not going to say anything negative if you and others choose to post or announce when you see something that doesn't seem right and choose not to bid, but if it still doesn't fall in line with what I deem inappropriate, I obviously still might choose to bid.
And for the record, I really can't remember offering to buy a card with or without bidders on it outside of ebay, at least in the past 5 years I am for sure, and that is around 2,000 transactions. I have, after buying alot of cards from a few sellers, struck up deals outside of ebay prior to them listing the card.
somone has suggested for sellers that like to pull the auction for a private sale to use BIN/BO. well just follow the cash as that is all the seller is looking at any way. if i remember correctly BIN/BO have a higher listing fee than a plain auction...plus you might even get some of the fee refunded if its pulled. on top of that you wont have to pay the value added ebay fee. so its all about the money to sellers that do this.
myself i would have a problem with doing that...in fact i dont like it even if there arent any bidders. but i have had others from these boards attempt (both with succes and without) to have sellers end auctions early.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Do you have a scan handy of the red background? Dont think ive ever seen one.
Dave >>
Dave,
The background is still blue, it's the jersey that is red. I have all my cards available for viewing, just click on my set. I believe I'm #27 or so at the moment. When you hold up the red next to the maroon the difference is clearly obvious. Only 2 red jerseys are listed in the pop report, the highest graded being a 5Q.
Don't get too excited. PSA drops a lot of the variations in the "See Varieties" listing. There are 50 Nomellinis in that subcatagory. That's 2.5x more than the 19 total Maroon Jersey/Red Jersey-Blue Background/Red/Jersey-White Background listings.
My guess is that about 1/3 of the "See Varieties" are Red-Blue while the other 2/3 are Maroon/Blue and maybe there's another Red-White in there. The Red-White is an absolute monster!
Yes, you are correct that I have no problem ending an auction early IF there have been no bids. Once a bid is made the bidder is obligated to purchase that item even if they are the only bidder, or realize they have overbid, or don't want the item, whatever. So the seller should be obligated to sell it as well. Short of retracting your bid, which we all know isn't great for your feedback, the bidder has to buy the item and the seller SHOULD have to sell it regardless of the price.
It's irrelevant to me if the auction has ended or not, it makes no difference other than to simply prolong the eventual business transaction. Once a seller receives a bid, consider it sold. Again I go back to the BIN/BO feature which you can set a price and control what you want an item to sell for. With an auction you cannot, or should I say SHOULD NOT be able to and that it the risk you take as a seller. To me it quite simply is a matter of integrity on the part of the seller.
It is a risk/reward scenario that as a business owner I agree with however, in regards to ebay the seller who ends an aution early(with bids) has a distinct advantage over any bidders. Let me use an example:
Let's say I have a PSA 10 Favre rookie that I feel is worth $300. I put it on ebay as an auction hoping to get something near that, but for what ever reason I only get 1 bid of $10 which we all know is well below market value for that card, but I now feel obligated to let the auction run it's course and hopefuly get more bids, but if it does not and the guy who bid $10 wins, then I am stuck and too bad for me, that's life. I could have done a reserve or BIN, but that is the chance you take. If I had accepted the $200 offer to sell it early(after receiving the $10 bid) I'd be better off but the bidder who may have won it for $10 gets screwed. It's simply not right.
Conversely, same auction, same card, same $10 opening bidder but instead I have some other crazy bidders and the card gets to $2000, well great for me for taking the risk and not doing a BIN. In both cases I win.
<< <i>To me, once a seller decides to auction an item, it is an auction, end of discussion. Whether it has bids or not, unless there is some outside occurrence (and I don't mean a private message to buy it now or something like that) it should run it's full course.
I'm sure we all have our own things that make us draw the line and choose not to bid on certain items despite needing/wanting them for our collections. I'm not going to say anything negative if you and others choose to post or announce when you see something that doesn't seem right and choose not to bid, but if it still doesn't fall in line with what I deem inappropriate, I obviously still might choose to bid.
And for the record, I really can't remember offering to buy a card with or without bidders on it outside of ebay, at least in the past 5 years I am for sure, and that is around 2,000 transactions. I have, after buying alot of cards from a few sellers, struck up deals outside of ebay prior to them listing the card. >>
Well said and I agree with this..I would add that many/most of my "off ebay" transactions were done with sellers that I knew and had past dealings with. In most cases, I've contacted them directly (either via phone or e-mail) when I saw an item listed with no bids..I will often get cards made available via e-mail, but not always. Sometimes the dealer/seller will simply list all inventory rather than send out e-mails saying that a card is available. Many times this was a BIN/BO that the seller listed, and I rarely ever used the "contact seller" link through ebay to see if the seller would be interested in selling offline. 99% of the time, I would only do this with sellers I know and have done business with in the past.
Like I said, to me, not really much difference in that (no bids on item) and e-mailing a dealer about a card on a website or even buying a card listed here in the thread for sale. But it is for each individual to decide how you want to handle it. I would just like to see names/ebay IDs of those who are doing it so I can MAKE that decision. When they do it off the radar and everyone just turns a blind eye, its going to keep going on and those who think there is nothing wrong with it, will continue to think that.
From here on out, I personally will post ANY and ALL "off ebay" transactions either to me or from me. Bids, no bids, all of it. I will list the card, the date, and ebay ID of the buyer/seller as well. Anyone else willing to do their part is welcome to join. if you receive a request to end early, post that buyers name...if it had bids, let us know..No bids, let us know that...Knowledge is power..Without knowing who the culprets are, how can make any type of informed decision on which sellers have integrity and which do not...
If this type of thing doesn't bother you, then by all means continue to turn the other cheek.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Don't get too excited. PSA drops a lot of the variations in the "See Varieties" listing. There are 50 Nomellinis in that subcatagory. That's 2.5x more than the 19 total Maroon Jersey/Red Jersey-Blue Background/Red/Jersey-White Background listings.
My guess is that about 1/3 of the "See Varieties" are Red-Blue while the other 2/3 are Maroon/Blue and maybe there's another Red-White in there. The Red-White is an absolute monster! >>
That is why I may not end up selling it, as it may not get much of a premium and I want a 6 for my set anyway so I would just have to replace it. At least it will have the correct variation on the flip. Anyone out there have a Chicle Strong or Hinkle in PSA 5 available?
<< <i>but its cheaper for a seller to remove the item than to list as a BIN/BO. less ebay fees. >>
And that's the whole point...If a seller is willing to screw you over for a few extra bucks, that's a seller I don't want to do business with...Honestly, I'd rather not even OWN the card than to pay money to someone who will back out of a listing WITH BIDS because they think it saves them money, even though they USED ebay to advertise the sale of the card.
If you made an agreement to sell a card offline (never listed on ebay) for $500, and a day later, got another offer from buyer #2 for $800, would you tell the first buyer nevermind and sell to buyer #2?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<DIV class=copy>He was mean. He was nasty. And, boy, could he lay a hit on a ball-carrier. That was Sam Huff, one of the greatest middle linebackers in NFL history. For 13 seasons, his first eight with the Giants (1956-63) and last five with the Redskins (1964-67, 1969), Huff was one of the most feared defenders in the league. A field general equipped with razor-sharp instincts, he sniffed out runners and receivers like a hound dog and roamed the field like a hawk, intercepting 30 passes, one of the highest totals ever for a linebacker.
<TD class=VI><B>Sam Huff at his locker. </B></TD></TR></TABLE>Huff achieved nearly all of his fame with the Giants, playing in four of his five Pro Bowls and earning all four of his All-Pro distinctions. With No. 70 manning the middle, the Giants made it to six NFL championship games, winning once. Huff was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1982. He was called an "inspirational leader, brilliant diagnostician with great speed, tackling ability...noted for hard-hitting duels with premiere running backs"--Cleveland's Jim Brown and Green Bay's Jim Taylor to name a few. A native of Edna Gas, West Virginia, Huff won a football scholarship to West Virginia. He earned All-American honored playing guard and tackle on offense and defense, and made a slew of all-star teams. He was enshrined in the College Football Hall of Fame in 1980. The Giants drafted Huff in the third round in 1956. But he was undersized at defensive tackle and discontented with coach Jim Lee Howell, so he walked out of training camp with fellow rookie Don Chandler. Both were talked back into the fold, and early in the season, Huff got the break that launched his star-studded career. When middle linebacker Ray Beck injured his ankle, defensive coach (and later famed Cowboys head coach) Tom Landry asked Huff if he'd like to try the position. Lots of people focused on the eventual Rookie of the Year in 1956, when the Giants downed the Bears 47-7 in the championship game. Playing behind a talented line consisting of ends Andy Robustelli and Jim Katcavage, and tackles Rosey Grier and Dick Modzelewski in the Giants' modern 4-3 scheme, Huff came to personify a ferocious defense that propelled the Giants to appearances in five more title games in the coming seasons. Meanwhile, Huff was glamorizing the middle linebacker position. In 1959, when named the NFL's most outstanding lineman (linebackers at the time were considered linemen), he appeared on the cover of TIME magazine, which described him as "a confident, smiling fighter, fired with a devout desire to sink a thick shoulder into every ball-carrier in the NFL." The next year, CBS aired a documentary narrated by celebrated anchorman Walter Cronkite called "The Violent World of Sam Huff." Huff was a fan favorite in New York, where chants of "Huff, Huff, Huff, Huff" reverberated through Yankee Stadium. But Huff's glory ride in the Big Apple ended in April 1964. Coach Allie Sherman, who was trading stars from the Giants' defense like shuffling a deck of cards, dealt Huff to the Redskins for talented halfback and punt returner Dick James, defensive end Andy Stynchula and a draft pick. Huff was furious at Sherman, a feeling that exists to this day, and hinted at quitting football. "I didn't want to be traded from a championship team, a championship organization," said Huff, who arrived in Washington the same year as future Hall of Fame quarterback Sonny Jurgensen. Continued Huff: "We had just lost to the Bears in the 1963 championship, and the head coach gets rid of five guys on the defensive unit. Allie Sherman was an offensive-oriented coach, and he didn't like us because we were Tom Landry's team that he put together defensively. "I'll never forget that trade. I look at my life in Washington and with the Redskins and can't forget what I've accomplished here. But at the time, the trade was very, very upsetting." Huff delayed signing with the Redskins for more than two months. He recalled that Redskins head coach Bill McPeak enticed him into playing for Washington by coming to his home in New York and offering him his No. 70 jersey. He also said the Redskins doubled his salary and offered a no-trade clause in his contract.
<TD class=VI><B>Sam Huff </B></TD></TR></TABLE>With Huff on board, the Redskins' defense improved to No. 2 in the league in 1965. He made the Pro Bowl for the last time that year and remained a steady presence on the field until an ankle injury in 1967 hauled his streak of 150 straight games played. In one of the legendary games in NFL history, Huff galvanized his Redskins teammates on Nov. 27, 1966 at RFK Stadium. They responded by beating the Giants 72-41 in the highest-scoring game in league history. He retired after the 1967 season. But when as assistant coach from his Giants years and one of his mentors, the legendary Vince Lombardi, signed on in 1969 to coach the Redskins, the 34-year-old linebacker returned as a player-coach. The Redskins posted a 7-5-2 mark under Lombardi, their first winning season in 14 years, and Huff, the defensive captain, picked off three passes, returning one 18 yards for a touchdown. "I thought the world of Lombardi and Tom Landry, they were such great, great people in the sports world," Huff said. "They had a great influence on my life." After retiring for good, Huff spent one season coaching the Redskins' linebackers in 1970. He has worked in the radio booth as a Redskins color analyst--along-side Jurgensen--for more than 30 years, as fans of the organization are well aware. </DIV>
As great as Huff was, it still took him EIGHT tries to make the HOF....Within those 8 years, he only made the final 15 THREE times...He was not even a finalist his first 2 years of eligibility, but then in his 3rd and 4th years he finally was..In his 5th, 6th and 7th years of eligibility, he was again left off the list of final 15 candidates. In 1982, he made the final 15 again and was elected.
Just wanted to point out a great example of a HOF caliber player who had to WAIT a few years for induction..This has always been the case..Here are some of the modern era (no Senior candidate) guys who were on the ballot with Huff and inducted OVER Huff during the preceding 7 years that Huff was eligible (along with how long each had to wait):
Roosevelt Brown-Waited 9 Years George Connor-Waited 15 Years Dante Lavelli-Waited 13 Years Lenny Moore-Waited 3 Years Len Ford-Waited 13 Years Jim Taylor-Waited 4 Years Frank Gifford-Waited 8 Years Forrest Gregg-Elected First Year of Eligibility Gale Sayers-Elected First Year of Eligibility Bart Starr-Elected First Year of Eligibility Lance Alworth-Elected First Year of Eligibility Weeb Ewbank-Waited 5 Years Ray Nitschke-Elected First Year of Eligibility Larry Wilson-Elected First Year of Eligibility Dick Butkus-Elected First Year of Eligibility Yale Lary-Waited 10 Years Ron Mix-Waited 3 Years Johnny Unitas-Elected First Year of Eligibility Herb Adderley-Waited 3 Years David (Deacon) Jones-Elected First Year of Eligibility Bob Lilly-Elected First Year of Eligibility Jim Otto-Elected First Year of Eligibility George Blanda-Elected First Year of Eligibility Willie Davis-Waited 7 Years Jim Ringo-Waited 9 Years
This doesn't make him any less of a HOF quality guy..Just that the seats are limited and sometimes great players have to wait for others who maybe weren't as great simply based on the position they played or maybe the franchise they played for.
You look at some of the names on this list and how long they had to wait and it provides some perspective for the current HOF situation...You also look at all the first ballot guys, and it's amazing how tough it must have been to pick and choose the HOFers through those years..Very similar to what we will see in the next 5 years..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Speaking of Sam Huff, is this the nicest 7 you guys have ever seen for this card or what? Maybe one day I'll send it back to PSA for the 8.5 it deserves:
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Speaking of Sam Huff, is this the nicest 7 you guys have ever seen for this card or what? Maybe one day I'll send it back to PSA for the 8.5 it deserves:
>>
Shag,
That is one of the nicest Huff's I've seen 9's included. I searched for 6 months for a centered 8 Huff...and it wasn't easy to find. Unless there is a flaw that's not visible in the scan, I would definately send in for review. It might take you 2 or 3 tries, but that may end up in a PSA 9 holder one day. How much did you pay for it?
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
I got it for $50 raw from an eBay store and sent it to PSA myself.
Andy
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I would crack that thing for sure, it's beautiful, especially the centering. My 8 isn't that nice.
Doc >>
Neither is mine..I used to own a PSA 9, and that card is comparable..Then again, we are judging via scan, which doesn't always show EVERY flaw, so there could be something we can't see...
Here's my old PSA 9:
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hey guys, just had a 1997 sp authentic tony gonzalez pop in a psa 10. If you get a chance can someone shoot me a PM with an average price for this card. I know its a pretty high pop so I am not expecting anything too major but I am wondering if we are talking about a $50 card or a $150 card.
I was missing this card in my Young collection so it was greatly needed.
Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Comments
I do appreciate the bids though. It was languishing around that $12 mark for about 5 days, I was a little worried it might not break the $30 mark.
I know $5 or $10 / card doesn't seem like much but when you consider they only sell for $30-50, it's a huge percentage decrease, and over 30 cards, that makes all the difference in the world.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
That's bad news for me, I just listed a bunch HOF RCs from upgrades.
e-Bay auctions
Tom
For everyone else: The Larry Wilson 8.5 has been sold. The lucky owner can identify themselves when they choose. The other .5 cards are still available if anyone is interested.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Snorto~
<< <i>Good Luck Tom, I hope you fare better than I did.
For everyone else: The Larry Wilson 8.5 has been sold. The lucky owner can identify themselves when they choose. The other .5 cards are still available if anyone is interested. >>
Wouldn't be hard to figure out...Just check the updated sets..
Also won't be hard to figure out who picked up the PSA 9 1971 Roger Wehrli from ebay. Seller ended early WITH bids, and whoever asked him to end early did so with bids already on it..I put a $500 bid on within 1 minute of the item being listed, so whoever made the request to end early did so even though others were already bidding on it...
Not sure how everyone else feels on the subject..Personally, I have no problem ending items early or with sellers that end items early that have ZERO bids...But once a card has others bidding, to me seems like you are pulling the rug out from under other obviously interested buyers...
Most likely I will block that seller from bidding on any of my cards and likewise won't bid on any of his in the future. I started doing this about 6 months-1 year ago when I see this happen. I'm fairly certain a HOF RC collector picked up the Wehrli by making an offer after bidding had already started on the card. If they e-mailed the seller prior to my bid within the first minute then I wouldn't have any problem with that, but making offers to end early after bidding has begun is BS IMO and something needs to be done about it.
Maybe we should start a bad business list of buyers/sellers.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Good Luck Tom, I hope you fare better than I did.
For everyone else: The Larry Wilson 8.5 has been sold. The lucky owner can identify themselves when they choose. The other .5 cards are still available if anyone is interested. >>
Wouldn't be hard to figure out...Just check the updated sets..
Also won't be hard to figure out who picked up the PSA 9 1971 Roger Wehrli from ebay. Seller ended early WITH bids, and whoever asked him to end early did so with bids already on it..I put a $500 bid on within 1 minute of the item being listed, so whoever made the request to end early did so even though others were already bidding on it...
Not sure how everyone else feels on the subject..Personally, I have no problem ending items early or with sellers that end items early that have ZERO bids...But once a card has others bidding, to me seems like you are pulling the rug out from under other obviously interested buyers...
Most likely I will block that seller from bidding on any of my cards and likewise won't bid on any of his in the future. I started doing this about 6 months-1 year ago when I see this happen. I'm fairly certain a HOF RC collector picked up the Wehrli by making an offer after bidding had already started on the card. If they e-mailed the seller prior to my bid within the first minute then I wouldn't have any problem with that, but making offers to end early after bidding has begun is BS IMO and something needs to be done about it.
Maybe we should start a bad business list of buyers/sellers.
Jason >>
Jason:
While I agree that such a move is dirty pool, I'm not sure you can really blame the seller or the buyer. As a collector, such activity sucks. As a business person, the buyer most probably offered a price that was less than they were actually willing to pay while the seller probably figured that the offer was as much or more than they were going to realize and they would save the eBay FV fees.
I have made "end it" offers on items on eBay, but only when they had no bids (so I hopefully won't end up on your doo-doo list) and I've had a few accepted. I've also had offers on cards that I have had up for auction, but I have ALWAYS let the auction run. Probably because the offers have usually been lowball, but the point is, I'd rather follow through on what I have up even it I get less than I was offered.
The classic example of making an offer and having it rejected was a little over a year ago when I needed 4 cards to complete my Topps Mexican set. A seller posted three of the cards and I made significant offers on all three and inquired about whether they had the 4th. They did but rejected my offer. I ended up winning the three cards for about $600 LESS than I had offered and bought the 4th card for a fraction of what I would've paid for it. The seller actually told me that because of the price of my original offer, he thought he had "gold" and that I was trying to lowball him. The truth was, I needed the cards because I had a buyer once the set was complete and I had been hunting for those cards for months! Thankfully, no one else needed them as badly as I did.
To me, a card with no bids is no different than a card being sold here on the boards or on a buy it now. It's a free market card..But once you have bids, it's the same as me agreeing to sell you a card and then coming back later and changing my mind because someone else came in AFTER our agreement with a higher offer. That's just a lack of honesty and integrity IMO, and it is something that has run more than a couple of collector's out of the NFL HOF RC game that I know of. I came close to selling off and leaving myself not too long ago over a similar situation (someone selling a card to another collector for a higher price even though we already had an agreement and I had already sent payment..)
IMO, this seller 99.9% likely lost money by selling early..Its a POP 1, and there is no telling how high it would have gone. I was fully prepared to pay $1,000 and I doubt I would have won it with that bid.
Just seems like we, as a group, could probably make a big dent into some of these buyers/sellers bottom line and send a message that doing bad business to one of us will equal getting no business from a bunch of us..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Just seems like we, as a group, could probably make a big dent into some of these buyers/sellers bottom line and send a message that doing bad business to one of us will equal getting no business from a bunch of us.. >>
It sounds great in principle, but the problem lies in the fact that if several of us made a pact to boycott, the sellers may lose out on a few bucks, but in the long run, the underbidder that would normally be beaten by the boycotters would build a set at a significant savings.
I think a better alternative is to build a network of "associates" around the country and when one of these buyers or sellers violates "our etiquette," we send the associate to visit them and depending upon the severity, the associate will either pull the valve stems from their vehicle(s), take a Louisville Slugger to their knees, kidnap their dog, or leave my wife with them...
<< <i>
It sounds great in principle, but the problem lies in the fact that if several of us made a pact to boycott, the sellers may lose out on a few bucks, but in the long run, the underbidder that would normally be beaten by the boycotters would build a set at a significant savings.
I think a better alternative is to build a network of "associates" around the country and when one of these buyers or sellers violates "our etiquette," we send the associate to visit them and depending upon the severity, the associate will either pull the valve stems from their vehicle(s), take a Louisville Slugger to their knees, kidnap their dog, or leave my wife with them... >>
LOLOL...Well, I don't know that I would take it THAT far...
Honestly, I'd rather see someone build a set at significant savings then to give a dishonorable seller my money..Maybe that's just me...
Don't forget the buyer in all this either..If these buyers who are willing to backdoor someone and buy a card that's already "promised" to someone else start having their bids blocked and/or start being told "no" to trades and private sales maybe they would stop making offers on cards that are already spoken for..This stuff has been going on for awhile, and most seem to turn a blind eye to it...It has caused us to lose more than a couple of the "good guys" of the hobby already..How many other collectors need to say "F- this" and leave before we realize that allowing the bad business to occur without recourse has the potential to suck the fun out of this hobby and in the end make ALL of our collections less valuable. I think it hurts all of us here when this type of thing is prevalent in our neighborhood (NFL HOF RCs).
95%+ of the guys on this set are top notch and would never compromise their integrity for a couple of extra dollars. But that other 5% is going to ruin it for everyone.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
<< <i>
<< <i>
It sounds great in principle, but the problem lies in the fact that if several of us made a pact to boycott, the sellers may lose out on a few bucks, but in the long run, the underbidder that would normally be beaten by the boycotters would build a set at a significant savings.
I think a better alternative is to build a network of "associates" around the country and when one of these buyers or sellers violates "our etiquette," we send the associate to visit them and depending upon the severity, the associate will either pull the valve stems from their vehicle(s), take a Louisville Slugger to their knees, kidnap their dog, or leave my wife with them... >>
LOLOL...Well, I don't know that I would take it THAT far... >>
You're right... Leaving my wife with them would be cruel and unusual punishment and probably a violation of the Geneva Convention.
<< <i>There seems to be an interesting distinction made between auction lots that have bids already and those that do not. I am curious if you could place a lot with Mastro, Mile High, REA, etc. and then tell them to pull the lot once the auction has started b/c you have the item "sold". I don't know the answer to this, but I would think not. Should eBay be treated differently? It seems as though it is, since you can contact and negotiate with the seller directly. This tends to create a more informal auction environment where ending auctions early is part of the business. A couple weeks back a 79 Topps Bradshaw PSA 10 was listed that would have looked nice in my 79 set, but it ended early. Yeah, I was bummed, as I didn't get my chance to snipe it. At the same time, if the seller thought he could get more by ending early, that is his chioce under the eBay rules which allow the auction to end early if it is "no longer available." I tend to think that, more times than not, the seller accepts less than what he would have gotten if he had just let the auction run (see Jason's Wehrli example). I guess the bottom line is that even though it is allowable under eBay rules, it is frustrating for us as bidders. Just my 2 cents.
Jasen >>
ebay doesn't allow it. The practice is actually considered a circumvention of ebay fees:
"Once an item is listed on eBay, you can not sell the item outside of eBay. You must sell it to the highest bidder. If your listing ends without a winning buyer, you can re-list the item. If the item sells the second time and qualifies for a re-list credit, eBay will refund the Insertion Fee for the re-listing."
Its a loophole, plain and simple, and the above includes ALL items, not just ones with bids...Its really up to each individual to decide what they think is fair. I know many of us do not like seeing items pulled out from under us that we have bids on and a reasonable belief that we could win the item via fair auction. If enough of us feel the same AND TAKE ACTION, I think we can limit and or end this practice at least when it pertains to HOF RCs...
At a minimum, we could consolidate a list of buyers and sellers who take part in this practice, which would help each of us when deciding who to spend our money with or who we sell our cards to.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>At a minimum, we could consolidate a list of buyers and sellers who take part in this practice, which would help each of us when deciding who to spend our money with or who we sell our cards to. >>
And when Jasen wants to sell his '48 Leo, he better let me know or my wife will be on the next plane out!
In my opion there is no difference to buying an item off line with a current bid or one without a bid, they both create the same outcome. Which is more and more buyers trying to buy off line in fear that they never get the chance to bid on the item period . Just an opion. And we all know opions are like ?
I do agree with the fact that the majority of the time the seller loses out and leaves money on the table, because you only ever receive offers on the rare items. Its not like your selling a Howie Long PSA 8 off ebay.
By the way I read a great article on Gale Sayers that I never knew
Gale Sayers turned down Lamar Hunt the first time. He wouldn’t do it again.
One of the greatest running backs in history accepted the Lamar Hunt Lifetime Achievement Award on Thursday night at the Sprint Center at the Kansas City Sports Commission’s annual banquet.
In 1965, after concluding a fabulous career at Kansas, Sayers was selected by the Chiefs in the first round of the AFL draft, the fifth overall pick.
He also was taken by the Chicago Bears in the NFL draft. Sayers was the Bears’ second choice in the first round, behind linebacker Dick Butkus.
Hunt, the Chiefs owner who died in 2006, had helped create the AFL in 1960. But when it came to the bottom line, the established league won out.
“I signed a four-year contract with the Bears for $25,000 a year,” Sayers said. “I thought (Hunt) would give me something better. He offered $27,500.
“I thought, ‘New league, no, I can’t do that.’ You didn’t know it was going to be a good league, so I decided to go with the Bears.”
And history was made — by both teams. In Chicago, Sayers became the stuff of legend. He was among the game’s first stop-on-a-dime, cut-back, juke-a-defender artists. Volumes of NFL Films are dedicated to the magic of Sayers’ 68-game career, sadly cut short by a knee injury.
The Chiefs survived nicely. Sayers accumulated big numbers as a running back and return specialist, but his Chicago teams never reached the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Chiefs were putting together some of the best teams in franchise history.
“If I went with Kansas City, they might not have drafted Mike Garrett the next year, and I probably would have been on the team that went to the Super Bowl,” Sayers said. “But I enjoyed my career, as short as it was.”
Sayers, known as the Kansas Comet during his Jayhawk days, was thrilled to watch his alma mater go 12-1 last season, finishing with an Orange Bowl victory. He sees no reason why Kansas can’t take a place among the group of schools that competes at the highest level nationally in football and basketball.
“If we can do it in basketball, why can’t we do it in football?” Sayers said. “There are too many programs around the country that have good football and good basketball.”
Sayers sees Kansas on the right track and pointed to athletic director Lew Perkins, who accepted the Citation for Amateur Sports Excellence Award on Thursday.
“The excellence can continue, but you still have to have the funding to go out and recruit top players,” Sayers said. “Lew Perkins is doing a great job, building up the facilities, and it’s allowing us to compete with the rest of the Big 12.”
Can you imagine how NFL history would have changed if Sayers would have joined Dawson , Otis Taylor , Buchanan and Bobby Bell on the same team . WOW !!!!
<< <i>Note sure if anyone here has the firepower to pull it off, but there is a PSA 8 Nagurski in SCP's auction, which begins on Thursday. Lot # 230. >>
Aaah, SCP is where that ended up huh?. A Nag-8 was being touted for sale behind the scenes a few months ago, and I was told it went to an auction house instead.
Hellooooo Kitty
As far as cards being sold off line of ebay once they've been listed, I hate it. I hate it when their aren't any bids on it, and I hate it when their are already bids on it even worse.
I dont think its cool for people to even ask for auctions to be ended early, but it happens. Ive had cards pulled out from under my bids before too, Im sure we all have and there's nothing we can do about it, forming committees or singing songs (I aint gonna play Sun City) about it, whatever. I just take note of parties involved and move on, another card will come along someday, they always do.
Jason I know you like to emal people and ask about ending auctions early. While I dont approve of it, like I said earlier, I understand it to be part of the game. I would chalk this up to someone just being a little craftier than you are and move on. .02
<< <i>
Jason I know you like to emal people and ask about ending auctions early. While I dont approve of it, like I said earlier, I understand it to be part of the game. I would chalk this up to someone just being a little craftier than you are and move on. .02 >>
I've never once e-mailed someone about a card with bids on it or that was already spoken for...And haven't e-mailed anyone to end a card WITHOUT bids in probably a year and most likely won't ever again...I didn't e-mail on the Wehrli either, rather I placed an early bid to let the seller know that other interested parties are out there...
I used to do it fairly often on cards without bids, mainly for the reason Dan pointed out which was to try to stay competitive with many others who were doing the same...I don't think that made it right, and even though I saved money at times, I also overpaid at other times...I haven't seen it happening all that much lately, and I attribute that to the fact that many of the collectors who were doing it no longer collect this set.
It's too bad that most will do the same as you and simply take note and move along...Basically gives those involved a free pass and just means it's more than likely to happen again and again...I don't think it would take many bad examples being set before most would no longer take part. Just my issue I guess..If not one else cares then so be it. I'll be "taking note" of these buyers and sellers from here on and will most likely post their names here for public consumption. What others choose to do with that info is each persons business. Personally, I won't be doing business with those buyers/sellers for any amount of money.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think you either have to make a choice to let the auction run it's course or decide a BIN/BO price, but if you choose the auction route then let it play out, period. I hate sellers that conduct business that way.
One final question, what are your thoughts on revealing the reserve amount to those who request it? I get requests regarding the reserve amount, but I do not reveal it as I believe it's unfair to other bidders and watchers.
Comments???
Doc
Have shine box will travel is available to go where needed.
at the very least, I coud defenitly be yur asociat in FLA.
ALSO --
In addition to the other cards I listed I'm also taking offers on the following:
1954 Bowman George Blanda PSA 9 NQ
1975 Topps Dan Fouts PSA 10
1998 SP Peyton Manning PSA 10
2000 SP Tom Brady PSA 10
Can anyone chime in with the last Brady 10 and Manning 10 prices.
Thanks,
Marc
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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<< <i>
Can anyone chime in with the last Brady 10 and Manning 10 prices.
Thanks,
Marc >>
Marc, this site isn't great and I think it misses wuite a few prices, but worth the FREE TRIAL price of FREE and does have some modern prices..
Modern Price Guide
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks for under $30 for a year I subscribed.
Marc.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
<< <i>
<< <i>At a minimum, we could consolidate a list of buyers and sellers who take part in this practice, which would help each of us when deciding who to spend our money with or who we sell our cards to. >>
And when Jasen wants to sell his '48 Leo, he better let me know or my wife will be on the next plane out!
Actually, a little birdy told me to check the card again, as he believed it was mislabeled. Sure enough, I have the Leo red jersey instead of the maroon jersey. If you check the pop report, you'll see how rare the red jersey variety is, so the card is at PSA being re-labeled to indicate the correct Red Jersey variety. From there I will decide what to do with it. Don't be surprised if it ends up in an auction house sometime this fall. Thanks again to the little birdy!
Jasen
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Alright, now it's my turn to chime in. I absolutely agree that ending an auction early that already has bidders is WRONG. I hate it when it happens and I too have been burned by greedy sellers who probably would have made more $$ if they simply let the auction run. If you are a seller on ebay, as we all are from time to time, why not list items as BIN/BO instead of ending the auction early?
I think you either have to make a choice to let the auction run it's course or decide a BIN/BO price, but if you choose the auction route then let it play out, period. I hate sellers that conduct business that way.
One final question, what are your thoughts on revealing the reserve amount to those who request it? I get requests regarding the reserve amount, but I do not reveal it as I believe it's unfair to other bidders and watchers.
Comments???
Doc >>
So what you are saying is if a seller chooses the auction route they should stick that way out, but you only mention that you think it's wrong if they end an auction with a bidder on it? So it's ok if there's no bidders?
Joe is absolutely right, just sounds like some whining involved here, and we all know $1,000 wouldn't even come close to winning that card.
<< <i>
So what you are saying is if a seller chooses the auction route they should stick that way out, but you only mention that you think it's wrong if they end an auction with a bidder on it? So it's ok if there's no bidders?
Joe is absolutely right, just sounds like some whining involved here, and we all know $1,000 wouldn't even come close to winning that card. >>
There were others bidding higher that i've talked to via e-mail. I think it's up to each individual to decide what is ok with them and what isnt..Sounds like you must not have a problem with a seller pulling a card even though they've already promised to sell to those who were already bidding on it...To me, that's the same as selling a card privately to a 2nd buyer even though you've already promised to sell to a 1st buyer simply because the 2nd guy came with a higher offer. If that's how you do business, then thanks for letting us know.
When there are no bidders, I personally don't feel that the seller has that responsibility yet and has not promised to sell the card to anyone as no one has staked any type of claim to that card. That being said, I do see how others would have an issue with it, mainly because it falls into the category of a card being pulled that was GOING to be offered in public sale yet was sold privately only after the buyer saw it listed on ebay.
Let's not reduce this issue to ONE card. This happens often, and has been going on for some time...We can't police all of ebay, but I think if we had 5-10 of the top HOF RC buyers start boycotting sellers/buyers who do this, 99% of it would disappear from the NFL HOF RC area at least.
Again, everyone gets to choose where to draw their own line here. My point is that we SHOULD at a minimum being drawing one. For me, being honest there just are not that many cards that I even need for the set anymore..My main concern is for the up and coming collectors who need multiple cards and are just getting into building their set. I'd hate to see collectors run off or be discouraged because of something like this. That hurts the long-term value of all of our collections.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm sure we all have our own things that make us draw the line and choose not to bid on certain items despite needing/wanting them for our collections. I'm not going to say anything negative if you and others choose to post or announce when you see something that doesn't seem right and choose not to bid, but if it still doesn't fall in line with what I deem inappropriate, I obviously still might choose to bid.
And for the record, I really can't remember offering to buy a card with or without bidders on it outside of ebay, at least in the past 5 years I am for sure, and that is around 2,000 transactions. I have, after buying alot of cards from a few sellers, struck up deals outside of ebay prior to them listing the card.
myself i would have a problem with doing that...in fact i dont like it even if there arent any bidders. but i have had others from these boards attempt (both with succes and without) to have sellers end auctions early.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Do you have a scan handy of the red background? Dont think ive ever seen one.
Dave >>
Dave,
The background is still blue, it's the jersey that is red. I have all my cards available for viewing, just click on my set. I believe I'm #27 or so at the moment. When you hold up the red next to the maroon the difference is clearly obvious. Only 2 red jerseys are listed in the pop report, the highest graded being a 5Q.
Jasen
Don't get too excited. PSA drops a lot of the variations in the "See Varieties" listing. There are 50 Nomellinis in that subcatagory. That's 2.5x more than the 19 total Maroon Jersey/Red Jersey-Blue Background/Red/Jersey-White Background listings.
My guess is that about 1/3 of the "See Varieties" are Red-Blue while the other 2/3 are Maroon/Blue and maybe there's another Red-White in there. The Red-White is an absolute monster!
It's irrelevant to me if the auction has ended or not, it makes no difference other than to simply prolong the eventual business transaction. Once a seller receives a bid, consider it sold. Again I go back to the BIN/BO feature which you can set a price and control what you want an item to sell for. With an auction you cannot, or should I say SHOULD NOT be able to and that it the risk you take as a seller. To me it quite simply is a matter of integrity on the part of the seller.
It is a risk/reward scenario that as a business owner I agree with however, in regards to ebay the seller who ends an aution early(with bids) has a distinct advantage over any bidders. Let me use an example:
Let's say I have a PSA 10 Favre rookie that I feel is worth $300. I put it on ebay as an auction hoping to get something near that, but for what ever reason I only get 1 bid of $10 which we all know is well below market value for that card, but I now feel obligated to let the auction run it's course and hopefuly get more bids, but if it does not and the guy who bid $10 wins, then I am stuck and too bad for me, that's life. I could have done a reserve or BIN, but that is the chance you take. If I had accepted the $200 offer to sell it early(after receiving the $10 bid) I'd be better off but the bidder who may have won it for $10 gets screwed. It's simply not right.
Conversely, same auction, same card, same $10 opening bidder but instead I have some other crazy bidders and the card gets to $2000, well great for me for taking the risk and not doing a BIN. In both cases I win.
Sorry for my rant,
Doc
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>To me, once a seller decides to auction an item, it is an auction, end of discussion. Whether it has bids or not, unless there is some outside occurrence (and I don't mean a private message to buy it now or something like that) it should run it's full course.
I'm sure we all have our own things that make us draw the line and choose not to bid on certain items despite needing/wanting them for our collections. I'm not going to say anything negative if you and others choose to post or announce when you see something that doesn't seem right and choose not to bid, but if it still doesn't fall in line with what I deem inappropriate, I obviously still might choose to bid.
And for the record, I really can't remember offering to buy a card with or without bidders on it outside of ebay, at least in the past 5 years I am for sure, and that is around 2,000 transactions. I have, after buying alot of cards from a few sellers, struck up deals outside of ebay prior to them listing the card. >>
Well said and I agree with this..I would add that many/most of my "off ebay" transactions were done with sellers that I knew and had past dealings with. In most cases, I've contacted them directly (either via phone or e-mail) when I saw an item listed with no bids..I will often get cards made available via e-mail, but not always. Sometimes the dealer/seller will simply list all inventory rather than send out e-mails saying that a card is available. Many times this was a BIN/BO that the seller listed, and I rarely ever used the "contact seller" link through ebay to see if the seller would be interested in selling offline. 99% of the time, I would only do this with sellers I know and have done business with in the past.
Like I said, to me, not really much difference in that (no bids on item) and e-mailing a dealer about a card on a website or even buying a card listed here in the thread for sale. But it is for each individual to decide how you want to handle it. I would just like to see names/ebay IDs of those who are doing it so I can MAKE that decision. When they do it off the radar and everyone just turns a blind eye, its going to keep going on and those who think there is nothing wrong with it, will continue to think that.
From here on out, I personally will post ANY and ALL "off ebay" transactions either to me or from me. Bids, no bids, all of it. I will list the card, the date, and ebay ID of the buyer/seller as well. Anyone else willing to do their part is welcome to join. if you receive a request to end early, post that buyers name...if it had bids, let us know..No bids, let us know that...Knowledge is power..Without knowing who the culprets are, how can make any type of informed decision on which sellers have integrity and which do not...
If this type of thing doesn't bother you, then by all means continue to turn the other cheek.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jasen:
Don't get too excited. PSA drops a lot of the variations in the "See Varieties" listing. There are 50 Nomellinis in that subcatagory. That's 2.5x more than the 19 total Maroon Jersey/Red Jersey-Blue Background/Red/Jersey-White Background listings.
My guess is that about 1/3 of the "See Varieties" are Red-Blue while the other 2/3 are Maroon/Blue and maybe there's another Red-White in there. The Red-White is an absolute monster! >>
That is why I may not end up selling it, as it may not get much of a premium and I want a 6 for my set anyway so I would just have to replace it. At least it will have the correct variation on the flip. Anyone out there have a Chicle Strong or Hinkle in PSA 5 available?
Jasen
<< <i>but its cheaper for a seller to remove the item than to list as a BIN/BO. less ebay fees. >>
And that's the whole point...If a seller is willing to screw you over for a few extra bucks, that's a seller I don't want to do business with...Honestly, I'd rather not even OWN the card than to pay money to someone who will back out of a listing WITH BIDS because they think it saves them money, even though they USED ebay to advertise the sale of the card.
If you made an agreement to sell a card offline (never listed on ebay) for $500, and a day later, got another offer from buyer #2 for $800, would you tell the first buyer nevermind and sell to buyer #2?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Here is the direct link looks better
<DIV class=title>Flashback: Huff Changed the NFL Game</DIV>
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<TD class=A1><SPAN class=red>By Michael Richman</SPAN>
Special to Redskins.com
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<TD class=A1 align=right><SPAN class=red>June 25, 2008</SPAN>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<DIV class=copy>He was mean. He was nasty. And, boy, could he lay a hit on a ball-carrier.
That was Sam Huff, one of the greatest middle linebackers in NFL history.
For 13 seasons, his first eight with the Giants (1956-63) and last five with the Redskins (1964-67, 1969), Huff was one of the most feared defenders in the league.
A field general equipped with razor-sharp instincts, he sniffed out runners and receivers like a hound dog and roamed the field like a hawk, intercepting 30 passes, one of the highest totals ever for a linebacker.
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<TD class=VI><B>Sam Huff at his locker. </B></TD></TR></TABLE>Huff achieved nearly all of his fame with the Giants, playing in four of his five Pro Bowls and earning all four of his All-Pro distinctions. With No. 70 manning the middle, the Giants made it to six NFL championship games, winning once.
Huff was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1982. He was called an "inspirational leader, brilliant diagnostician with great speed, tackling ability...noted for hard-hitting duels with premiere running backs"--Cleveland's Jim Brown and Green Bay's Jim Taylor to name a few.
A native of Edna Gas, West Virginia, Huff won a football scholarship to West Virginia. He earned All-American honored playing guard and tackle on offense and defense, and made a slew of all-star teams. He was enshrined in the College Football Hall of Fame in 1980.
The Giants drafted Huff in the third round in 1956. But he was undersized at defensive tackle and discontented with coach Jim Lee Howell, so he walked out of training camp with fellow rookie Don Chandler. Both were talked back into the fold, and early in the season, Huff got the break that launched his star-studded career.
When middle linebacker Ray Beck injured his ankle, defensive coach (and later famed Cowboys head coach) Tom Landry asked Huff if he'd like to try the position.
Lots of people focused on the eventual Rookie of the Year in 1956, when the Giants downed the Bears 47-7 in the championship game.
Playing behind a talented line consisting of ends Andy Robustelli and Jim Katcavage, and tackles Rosey Grier and Dick Modzelewski in the Giants' modern 4-3 scheme, Huff came to personify a ferocious defense that propelled the Giants to appearances in five more title games in the coming seasons.
Meanwhile, Huff was glamorizing the middle linebacker position.
In 1959, when named the NFL's most outstanding lineman (linebackers at the time were considered linemen), he appeared on the cover of TIME magazine, which described him as "a confident, smiling fighter, fired with a devout desire to sink a thick shoulder into every ball-carrier in the NFL."
The next year, CBS aired a documentary narrated by celebrated anchorman Walter Cronkite called "The Violent World of Sam Huff."
Huff was a fan favorite in New York, where chants of "Huff, Huff, Huff, Huff" reverberated through Yankee Stadium.
But Huff's glory ride in the Big Apple ended in April 1964. Coach Allie Sherman, who was trading stars from the Giants' defense like shuffling a deck of cards, dealt Huff to the Redskins for talented halfback and punt returner Dick James, defensive end Andy Stynchula and a draft pick.
Huff was furious at Sherman, a feeling that exists to this day, and hinted at quitting football.
"I didn't want to be traded from a championship team, a championship organization," said Huff, who arrived in Washington the same year as future Hall of Fame quarterback Sonny Jurgensen.
Continued Huff: "We had just lost to the Bears in the 1963 championship, and the head coach gets rid of five guys on the defensive unit. Allie Sherman was an offensive-oriented coach, and he didn't like us because we were Tom Landry's team that he put together defensively.
"I'll never forget that trade. I look at my life in Washington and with the Redskins and can't forget what I've accomplished here. But at the time, the trade was very, very upsetting."
Huff delayed signing with the Redskins for more than two months. He recalled that Redskins head coach Bill McPeak enticed him into playing for Washington by coming to his home in New York and offering him his No. 70 jersey. He also said the Redskins doubled his salary and offered a no-trade clause in his contract.
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<TD class=VI><B>Sam Huff </B></TD></TR></TABLE>With Huff on board, the Redskins' defense improved to No. 2 in the league in 1965. He made the Pro Bowl for the last time that year and remained a steady presence on the field until an ankle injury in 1967 hauled his streak of 150 straight games played.
In one of the legendary games in NFL history, Huff galvanized his Redskins teammates on Nov. 27, 1966 at RFK Stadium. They responded by beating the Giants 72-41 in the highest-scoring game in league history.
He retired after the 1967 season. But when as assistant coach from his Giants years and one of his mentors, the legendary Vince Lombardi, signed on in 1969 to coach the Redskins, the 34-year-old linebacker returned as a player-coach.
The Redskins posted a 7-5-2 mark under Lombardi, their first winning season in 14 years, and Huff, the defensive captain, picked off three passes, returning one 18 yards for a touchdown.
"I thought the world of Lombardi and Tom Landry, they were such great, great people in the sports world," Huff said. "They had a great influence on my life."
After retiring for good, Huff spent one season coaching the Redskins' linebackers in 1970.
He has worked in the radio booth as a Redskins color analyst--along-side Jurgensen--for more than 30 years, as fans of the organization are well aware. </DIV>
Just wanted to point out a great example of a HOF caliber player who had to WAIT a few years for induction..This has always been the case..Here are some of the modern era (no Senior candidate) guys who were on the ballot with Huff and inducted OVER Huff during the preceding 7 years that Huff was eligible (along with how long each had to wait):
Roosevelt Brown-Waited 9 Years
George Connor-Waited 15 Years
Dante Lavelli-Waited 13 Years
Lenny Moore-Waited 3 Years
Len Ford-Waited 13 Years
Jim Taylor-Waited 4 Years
Frank Gifford-Waited 8 Years
Forrest Gregg-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Gale Sayers-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Bart Starr-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Lance Alworth-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Weeb Ewbank-Waited 5 Years
Ray Nitschke-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Larry Wilson-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Dick Butkus-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Yale Lary-Waited 10 Years
Ron Mix-Waited 3 Years
Johnny Unitas-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Herb Adderley-Waited 3 Years
David (Deacon) Jones-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Bob Lilly-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Jim Otto-Elected First Year of Eligibility
George Blanda-Elected First Year of Eligibility
Willie Davis-Waited 7 Years
Jim Ringo-Waited 9 Years
This doesn't make him any less of a HOF quality guy..Just that the seats are limited and sometimes great players have to wait for others who maybe weren't as great simply based on the position they played or maybe the franchise they played for.
You look at some of the names on this list and how long they had to wait and it provides some perspective for the current HOF situation...You also look at all the first ballot guys, and it's amazing how tough it must have been to pick and choose the HOFers through those years..Very similar to what we will see in the next 5 years..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
'35 Strong PSA 5
'35 Kinkle PSA 5
'50 Groza PSA 7
'50 Perry PSA 7
'50 Canadeo PSA 7
'52 Stydahar PSA 7 (large)
'54 Atkins PSA 7
'55 Kinard PSA 7
'67 Smith PSA 8
'78 Dean PSA 9
Let me know if any of you guys have any of these available, thanks.
Jasen
Also a 7.5 Canadeo hit hit tonight
<< <i>Speaking of Sam Huff, is this the nicest 7 you guys have ever seen for this card or what? Maybe one day I'll send it back to PSA for the 8.5 it deserves:
Shag,
That is one of the nicest Huff's I've seen 9's included. I searched for 6 months for a centered 8 Huff...and it wasn't easy to find. Unless there is a flaw that's not visible in the scan, I would definately send in for review. It might take you 2 or 3 tries, but that may end up in a PSA 9 holder one day. How much did you pay for it?
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
I got it for $50 raw from an eBay store and sent it to PSA myself.
Andy
Doc
<< <i>I would crack that thing for sure, it's beautiful, especially the centering. My 8 isn't that nice.
Doc >>
Neither is mine..I used to own a PSA 9, and that card is comparable..Then again, we are judging via scan, which doesn't always show EVERY flaw, so there could be something we can't see...
Here's my old PSA 9:
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks for your time,
Roger-
Thought I would share one of my later additions.
I was missing this card in my Young collection so it was greatly needed.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Jasen
I am looking for realistic offer for "future hall of famer"
1968 Topps # 163 Andy Russell PSA 10 1 of 1
email me at madmandreamer@aol.com
Thanks,
Marc
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------