I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
True HOFer, that means no discussion or debate needed...First ballot most likely...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree....but the yardage alone..(accumulator). Makes his card worth picking up.....IMO. I....for one, Have speculated on much....MUCH less than what Gore has accomplished in his career......im sure we all have.
As far as purchasing rookie cards are concerned, I don't see a problem with buying any of the guys we have discussed here..Foreman, Anderson, Gore, Corey Dillon, Fred Taylor..All great rookies to own...
Just don't want to see them listed on the Future HOF RC set prematurely, only to determine they should be removed later and not be able to get the votes to remove (See Jason Elam, Jimmy Smith, LeRoy Butler, etc)...
And even with his current accumulation, he simply doesnt belong on a set reserved for likely to definite HOFers yet...Lets see where he is after 2017 and maybe discuss it again.
IMO, if someone requests his addition prior to that he won't get the votes, and that will hurt any future votes for him.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
DeMarcus Ware has announced his retirement,,,
True HOFer, that means no discussion or debate needed...First ballot most likely...
Ware should be a player who requires little work by his representative when he becomes eligible five years from now.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I think if you look at this years dtaft class. Many outside Linebackers are listed as "Edge". This, to me, means that Ware, and players like him....like Von Miller, have redefined the position. Much like LT did with Middle LB.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
I think if you look at this years dtaft class. Many outside Linebackers are listed as "Edge". This, to me, means that Ware, and players like him....like Von Miller, have redefined the position. Much like LT did with Middle LB.
You probably need to back up a little further there with the position redefining..Pretty sure Kevin Greene, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman need to be the guys mentioned as redefining Designated Pass Rusher position...the "EDGE" designation was something the All-Pro voters decided to officially make a position this year..But how outside rush LBs have been used is not new at all...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hi all, if anyone needs a PSA 10 1981 Topps Dan Hampton HOF rookie for their Registry, please message me. I just have one in from psa. Pop 12. The last one sold for $1550 and I would do that via check or MO or $. PayPal would have to be extra.
Ugh....first time for me. Bought an upgrade 1964 Olsen from a pretty big auction company. Card looked solid on the bid page. Got the card in and noticed that, inside the PSA 8 holder, it had a water stain on the bottom left corner. Very hard to see in the pics, but in person, it is very clearly apparent. Auction states all sales are final. Not sure how to proceed with this. Any of you had this type of issue?
Due to much discussion on this thread about grading prospects. I just popped 2 Chrome Earl Thomas 10s. I will have them in hand in a week or so. I will be keeping one, but im offering the other here before Ebay. Anyone intetested, PM me with offers. Thanks.
Im interested to see if the Colts new GM brings in a RB1 or RB2 to the Colts..Will give us an early idea of what his team feels he has left in the tank. I do believe he will play this season...Enough to get to 14k+ or 100+? Remains to be seen
Was looking over the recent draft ans noticed the Colts drafted RB Marlon Mack in round 4...I would expect this to mean Gore will be losing a ton of touches this year as they transition towards Mack as their future starter..I think Gore is still likely the "starter", but wont sniff the 300 touches he got last season..More likely to be somewhere in the 150 touch range...
My prediction for his numbers this year? 500-600 yards and 3-4 TDs..If that turns out to be his final season, his stat line wont be 14k yards or 100 TDs...Nor a Pro Bowl or All-Pro...Wouldnt get my HOF vote...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Im interested to see if the Colts new GM brings in a RB1 or RB2 to the Colts..Will give us an early idea of what his team feels he has left in the tank. I do believe he will play this season...Enough to get to 14k+ or 100+? Remains to be seen
Was looking over the recent draft ans noticed the Colts drafted RB Marlon Mack in round 4...I would expect this to mean Gore will be losing a ton of touches this year as they transition towards Mack as their future starter..I think Gore is still likely the "starter", but wont sniff the 300 touches he got last season..More likely to be somewhere in the 150 touch range...
My prediction for his numbers this year? 500-600 yards and 3-4 TDs..If that turns out to be his final season, his stat line wont be 14k yards or 100 TDs...Nor a Pro Bowl or All-Pro...Wouldnt get my HOF vote...
Without knowing how Mack will perform I think it is hard to gauge Gore's production. Mack might be the number one back or he could be further down the depth chart.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
Well...it is now a pop 6. The only sale I could find was a PWCC auction that ended at $72. Before mine were graded.
Just an update...Listed my Extra Thomas on the bay for a 7 day auction with a $55 starting bid. Within 3 hours I got a message from a buyer wondering if I would move it for $75 now. I ended the auction and relisted it as a BIN for 71.50 plus 3.50 to ship. GONE immediately.
So its looking like 70ish would be my answer to that question....as of now. Im sure it will decrease as the pop rises...just like anything else.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
Well...it is now a pop 6. The only sale I could find was a PWCC auction that ended at $72. Before mine were graded.
Just an update...Listed my Extra Thomas on the bay for a 7 day auction with a $55 starting bid. Within 3 hours I got a message from a buyer wondering if I would move it for $75 now. I ended the auction and relisted it as a BIN for 71.50 plus 3.50 to ship. GONE immediately.
So its looking like 70ish would be my answer to that question....as of now. Im sure it will decrease as the pop rises...just like anything else.
Good to know. I appreciate the info. I have been 9ed to death lately on my Chrome rc subs between 2009-2014. A few nice 10s but I am growing a nice collection of Dez Bryant RCs in PSA 9. Good to see someone is hitting 10s
Did pretty well on the Chrome I subbed this last time though. Hit 10s on Travis Fredrick, Honeybadger, Travis Kelce, and LeVeon Bell....which is an extra for me if anyone is interested. Aside from the 2 Thomas RCs. Nothing major, ...but wins for me.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
Did pretty well on the Chrome I subbed this last time though. Hit 10s on Travis Fredrick, Honeybadger, Travis Kelce, and LeVeon Bell....which is an extra for me if anyone is interested. Aside from the 2 Thomas RCs. Nothing major, ...but wins for me.
Awesome I just hit 10s on Clay Matthews. Jordy Nelson (refractor) Le'Veon Bell (refractor), DeMarco Murray, and an 89 Score Deion. I got 9ed yet again on JJ Watt though. Cannot hit that one in a 10 for the life of me
Great job. I am only needing the xfractor for Matthews in a 10 to have the rainbow.....(with the exception of the super, and the red/25....never see these). I do have an extra copy of the copper refractor/649 in a 10 available if anyone is interested in the colors. Its the only other refractor besides the red that is serial #d. Think its currently a pop 7.
There was a decent priced Watt 10 on the bay a while back....not sure if its still up or not.
Longtime lurker here. Returned to the hobby a few years ago after a 20-year hiatus and picked up where I left off...collecting pro football HOF rookies. I look forward to the announcement of senior committee nominees like it's a holiday. With that in mind...
Any insights into this year's contenders based on recent trends? Any guys particularly close to getting over the bar in recent years that have a strong advocate this year?
My thoughts on the seniors this year (we will get 2):
Odds are against anyone from the Safety position, or who played into the 1980s after S Kenny Easley was selected last year...That knocks out a descent sized group...Also wouldn't expect a QB, Special Teams player or a Raiders player due to those position pools already being thin and Stabler/Guy going in recent years.
The biggest backlogged positions IMO are LB and OL...Closely followed by DB and WR...Jim Marshall could also get a push due to the Super Bowl location this year, but the committee did select DL in both 2013 and 2014 so that could also hurt his odds...I will rank my top 5 possibles based on recent pushes and some of the other variables I mentioned here...
1-Jerry Kramer...He gets pushed every single year and with the next possible "Packers" player coming up Charles Woodson in 2021, this year could be his year...Then again, I think most people assume he will be a pick every year..IMO the most overlooked Senior candidate in existence...Named to NFL's 50th anniversary team as a top 50 player of all-time...To me, this is an easy one, but you need senior committee members in Canton on selection day who aren't trying to shock the world and I haven't heard with 5 are going this year yet...
2-Eddie Meador..He's gotten lots of discussion and votes in recent years..With the Rams moving, this could make for a nice story (all the voters are SPORTS WRITERS)
3-Lavvie Dilweg...Another Packer who likely wouldnt go in WITH Kramer..But if Kramer is headed to snubsville again, and the committee decides to look back at some of the older candidates after a 9 year run of post war candidates Dilweg has gotten plenty of discussion in the past year or two.
4-Al Wistert..His push from a few years ago (he made the final 5 senior list) seems to have gone quiet...But like Dilweg, I think this year the committee could look for some of the true old timers..If they don't go Dilweg, Wistert is the next best old timer (Pre-1950s),
5- Insert just about any LB here...Howley, Nobis, Curtis, Brazile, Gradishar...All have gotten strong consideration over the past 5-6 years and it would be a coin flip determining which guy they would choose to try and continue to fix this backlog after finally putting Hanburger, Robinson and Richter in a few years back...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@DEFPOTEC said:
I have University of Michigan roots, so I'd like to see Wistert get one of the nods. Do we know which day the two nominees will be announced?
Mid-August..We will usually hear about the 5 Senior voters traveling to Canton a few days prior. Usually the final day they will bring in current HOFers who can speak on their final list of 5 Senior nominees and give opinions on them.Of course, guys like Wistert, there aren't many (any?) HOFers left who played with or against him..But If the voter rotation is what I believe it will be this year, I think we will get a pre-war finalist this year. Might be the last one we ever see, as some of the older senior committee members won't be around for too many more years.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It's to bad they don't set up a special committee like they did in baseball to look specifically at players long ago that might have been overlooked. I hope at least one player is from that era.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
A poll in line with what we have discussed here...As you see the list of names presented, keep in mind that Rick Gosselin is a long time member of the HOF senior committee..He's not just pulling these names out of thin air...Looks like the Jerry Kramer crowd stacked the ballot, but looks like all of these candidates are from the 60's-70s-80s era...
In which case, Kramer still is and has been the easiest candidate they could select. If he gets into the room this year, his election may be unanimous...At some point, the committee has to stop looking for forgotten players and put in guys who were denied election for other reasons...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The problem with Howley is that nothing distinguishes him from the rest of the Senior pool...5 first team All-Pros? There are 3 in the Senior Pool with 6...and 6 others with 5 (Jerry Kramer being one them)..Also, getting those nods in the 1960s hurts the value because the NFL and AFL both had a set of first team All-Pros vs. later when the team came from the NFL/AFL combined making it much tougher...
Super Bowl MVP? A ton of those guys not in the HOF...Yes, he is a rarity, a defensive player for a losing team, but look at the Colts offensive numbers that game and you'll understand why none of them were chosen..lol
Howley is a fine candidate and I don't think anyone would be upset or in disbelief if/when he ever becomes a senior committee finalist selection...But the list of "overlooked" and "deserving" candidates is long, yet the committee only gets to choose either 1 or 2 Seniors each year..Can make a case for about 30-40 guys on par with Howley...
I do believe he will eventually be inducted but could be another 40 year wait to be honest...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@BigRed7 said:
I was listening to a radio show this week, I can't remember the name Fox Sports, and the guest said that he'd be pushing for Duke Slater.
Another excellent pre-war candidate. Although haven't heard his name being pushed by any of the senior committee members in quite a few years.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
20s- Duke Slater
30s- Lavvie Dilweg
40s- Al Wistert
50s- Charlie Conerly
60s- Jerry Kramer
70s- L.C Greenwood
80s- Lester Hayes
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
The problem with Howley is that nothing distinguishes him from the rest of the Senior pool...5 first team All-Pros? There are 3 in the Senior Pool with 6...and 6 others with 5 (Jerry Kramer being one them)..Also, getting those nods in the 1960s hurts the value because the NFL and AFL both had a set of first team All-Pros vs. later when the team came from the NFL/AFL combined making it much tougher...
Super Bowl MVP? A ton of those guys not in the HOF...Yes, he is a rarity, a defensive player for a losing team, but look at the Colts offensive numbers that game and you'll understand why none of them were chosen..lol
Howley is a fine candidate and I don't think anyone would be upset or in disbelief if/when he ever becomes a senior committee finalist selection...But the list of "overlooked" and "deserving" candidates is long, yet the committee only gets to choose either 1 or 2 Seniors each year..Can make a case for about 30-40 guys on par with Howley...
I do believe he will eventually be inducted but could be another 40 year wait to be honest...
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
The problem with Howley is that nothing distinguishes him from the rest of the Senior pool...5 first team All-Pros? There are 3 in the Senior Pool with 6...and 6 others with 5 (Jerry Kramer being one them)..Also, getting those nods in the 1960s hurts the value because the NFL and AFL both had a set of first team All-Pros vs. later when the team came from the NFL/AFL combined making it much tougher...
Funny that getting those nods during the 1960's didn't hurt the HOF candidacy of other linebackers who spent the majority of their career in the 1960's. Specifically:
Nick Buoniconti - 5x All-AFL (5 overlapping with NFL).
Dick Butkis 6x All-Pro (4 overlapping with AFL), 2x second team All-Pro (1x overlapping with AFL).
Sam Huff 4x All-Pro (1 overlapping with AFL), 2x second team All-Pro (both overlapping with AFL).
Ray Nitschke 3x All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL), 4x second team All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL).
Dave Robinson 2x All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL), 1x second team All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL).
Dave Wilcox - 5x All-Pro (1x overlapping with AFL), 2x second team All-Pro (1 overlapping with AFL).
Chuck Howley - 5x All-Pro (4x overlapping with AFL), 1x second team All-Pro.
So I don't see how this is an issue for Howley when it wasn't for the others - a number of whom have been in for a long, long time.
Super Bowl MVP? A ton of those guys not in the HOF...Yes, he is a rarity, a defensive player for a losing team, but look at the Colts offensive numbers that game and you'll understand why none of them were chosen..lol
It's often difficult for the offensive team to look good when the defensive team is playing so well. I don't think it's a knock against Howley at all that he had two interceptions in the game and was named the MVP. The Colts gained 329 yards of offense - most after Johnny Unitas was knocked out of the football game. I don't know that you can understate the accomplishment - he was the first defensive player, first non-quarterback and only losing team player to ever win this award.
Howley is a fine candidate and I don't think anyone would be upset or in disbelief if/when he ever becomes a senior committee finalist selection...But the list of "overlooked" and "deserving" candidates is long, yet the committee only gets to choose either 1 or 2 Seniors each year..Can make a case for about 30-40 guys on par with Howley...
How many of those other candidates have been finalists in the past? For example:
Jerry Kramer - 10x finalist
Conerly - 7x Finalist
Greenwood - 6x Finalist
Lester Hayes - 4x Finalist
Curious that Tom Landry, Hall of Fame coach in his own right, coached one of Howley's peers above (Sam Huff) with the Giants and had this to say about Howley:
“I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anybody better at linebacker than Chuck Howley,” Landry said.
Making it all the more galling that Howley has never even been a finalist. That's why it's ridiculous to me. The same with some of the others above like Wistert. Their career and accomplishments have been disrespected for nearly 50 years (more in some cases) and it's very difficult to understand why. There are many other deserving players - there is no doubt, but compared to his peers above, I don't see a glaring reason why:
A: Those players are all in and Howley is out.
B: Why Howley was never a finalist to receive the discussion due.
I remember thinking when Hanburger got in - "if he's in Lee Roy Jordan and Howley should be in". Big fan of Lester but Cliff Branch should be the next Raider IMO.
Nick Buoniconti ---MLB...elected 21st year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
Dick Butkis --MLB...elected 1st year of eligibility
Sam Huff --MLB...elected 7th year of eligibility
Ray Nitschke --MLB...elected 1st year of eligibility
Dave Robinson .--OLB...elected 34th year of eligibility...Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
Dave Wilcox --OLB...elected 21st year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
One you left off:
Chris Hanburger--OLB elected 28th year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
-The only ones that weren't affected by playing during the 60s were Butkus and Nitschke...Maybe Huff, but Huff played in 6 NFL Title games. All of the others were Senior Committee slections and none of them were ever a top 15 finalist. This was common for the position during that time
-MLB was and still is treated VERY differently by HOF voters..Same goes for OT vs. OG and CB v. S, they just value those positions and give them more credence..Usually this is rightly so as those are typically more important positions to fill
-I have no idea what put Robinson and Wilcox, both of whom waited until they were in the Senior Pool to ever be a finalist, over Howley...All 3 were great OLBs
-Robinson was NFL All-Decade Team of the 1960s along with Butkus and Nitschke..Tommy Nobis and Larry Morris the other 2, no Howley or Wilcox
-The Super Bowl MVP for a losing team and 1st Defensive player to receive it FACTUALLY has done nothing to help Howley's case. I would have assumed it would be something that helps his case, but the voters over the years have shown that it simply isn't given much value
I am not a voter, so I can only give the reasons I can try and comprehend..The biggest one is simply that Howley played OLB, a position, especially for the HOF voters in the 70s, 80s, 90s era, that wasn't given high grades for importance. It's why their is currently such a backlog of LBs in the Senior Pool...Many of which never made a top 15 vote, rightly or wrongly...Who was Howley clearly better than? Howley was in this group talent wise no doubt, but I've not seen any evidence that he was so vastly superior that he should have been in the HOF well before any of these other guys...As I stated, i think at some point he will get in as his name is in the discussion literally every year the past 10 years or so..But he simply hasn't got the votes yet...
What would be your best guess as to why he hasn't gotten the votes?
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@Pinkcatfish said:
I remember thinking when Hanburger got in - "if he's in Lee Roy Jordan and Howley should be in". Big fan of Lester but Cliff Branch should be the next Raider IMO.
Cliff was close either his first or second year as a Senior...But I believe he is behind Dilweg, Otis Taylor and now possibly Drew Pearson at the WR position in the Senior Pool...If Hayes isn't the closest CB, then he is 2nd behind Eddie Meador at CB in the Senior Pool..
With Stabler and Guy recently going in as Seniors, my guess is that it's going to be a few years before we get another Raider...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Addressing these 60s LBs:
One you left off:
Chris Hanburger--OLB elected 28th year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
I didn't leave him off. I listed linebackers who played the majority of their career in the 1960's. He played the majority of his career in the 1970's.
Who was Howley clearly better than? Howley was in this group talent wise no doubt, but I've not seen any evidence that he was so vastly superior that he should have been in the HOF well before any of these other guys...
I think this is where we are getting bogged down. You're asking me to make the argument why Howley is clearly better than other deserving candidates and I didn't make that case for my disgust in his not being on the list. My outrage is over the fact he's never been a finalist. He's never been discussed. That he's in the same group talent and accomplishment wise but never been considered is my problem with this. Maybe instead of selecting a finalist for the 11th time or the 8th time or the 7th time or the 5th time as the four I outlined above would be if selected - there wouldn't be such a backlog if some of these equally deserving candidates could get into the room to be discussed. Part of the problem here is a problem of their (the writers and the senior committees) own creation - many deserving candidates sitting and waiting with no glaring separation between their careers and players who have been finalists 10x and not selected.
What would be your best guess as to why he hasn't gotten the votes?
I think Howley falls into the same category as some other Cowboys players of the 1960's and the 1970's - had the 1960's Cowboys beaten the Packers in one of those NFL championship games, he'd be in long ago. Heck for Howley all that might've had to happen different was winning Super Bowl V as you suggest. Had the 1970's Cowboys beaten the Steelers in one of those two Super Bowls, Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson would likely already be in the Hall of Fame.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
I understand that both can be answers to trivia questions but one feat is a career accomplishment and the other is an embarrassing moment. If the voters are considering both in the same regard then their thinking is flawed.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Not to steer this away from the LB discussion but I dug a little deeper on the WR's and was somewhat surprised to see how Drew Pearson compared to a few key folks. Still just my opinion but Branch should have been in a while back. These #'s don't include playoffs but will still give big picture. All obviously have at least 1 SB win but Stallworth, Swann and Branch have mulitple.
Comments
double post...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
DeMarcus Ware has announced his retirement,,,
True HOFer, that means no discussion or debate needed...First ballot most likely...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree....but the yardage alone..(accumulator). Makes his card worth picking up.....IMO. I....for one, Have speculated on much....MUCH less than what Gore has accomplished in his career......im sure we all have.
As far as purchasing rookie cards are concerned, I don't see a problem with buying any of the guys we have discussed here..Foreman, Anderson, Gore, Corey Dillon, Fred Taylor..All great rookies to own...
Just don't want to see them listed on the Future HOF RC set prematurely, only to determine they should be removed later and not be able to get the votes to remove (See Jason Elam, Jimmy Smith, LeRoy Butler, etc)...
And even with his current accumulation, he simply doesnt belong on a set reserved for likely to definite HOFers yet...Lets see where he is after 2017 and maybe discuss it again.
IMO, if someone requests his addition prior to that he won't get the votes, and that will hurt any future votes for him.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ware should be a player who requires little work by his representative when he becomes eligible five years from now.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I disagree
I think if you look at this years dtaft class. Many outside Linebackers are listed as "Edge". This, to me, means that Ware, and players like him....like Von Miller, have redefined the position. Much like LT did with Middle LB.
I say he requires no help....
Lock!
You probably need to back up a little further there with the position redefining..Pretty sure Kevin Greene, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman need to be the guys mentioned as redefining Designated Pass Rusher position...the "EDGE" designation was something the All-Pro voters decided to officially make a position this year..But how outside rush LBs have been used is not new at all...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
TTT anyone have or know of a 57 Starr in PSA 6,5 to sell or trade, please let me know.
Hi all, if anyone needs a PSA 10 1981 Topps Dan Hampton HOF rookie for their Registry, please message me. I just have one in from psa. Pop 12. The last one sold for $1550 and I would do that via check or MO or $. PayPal would have to be extra.
Here is the card
Brian
Ugh....first time for me. Bought an upgrade 1964 Olsen from a pretty big auction company. Card looked solid on the bid page. Got the card in and noticed that, inside the PSA 8 holder, it had a water stain on the bottom left corner. Very hard to see in the pics, but in person, it is very clearly apparent. Auction states all sales are final. Not sure how to proceed with this. Any of you had this type of issue?
Due to much discussion on this thread about grading prospects. I just popped 2 Chrome Earl Thomas 10s. I will have them in hand in a week or so. I will be keeping one, but im offering the other here before Ebay. Anyone intetested, PM me with offers. Thanks.
what do they go for?
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Well...it is now a pop 6. The only sale I could find was a PWCC auction that ended at $72. Before mine were graded.
Was looking over the recent draft ans noticed the Colts drafted RB Marlon Mack in round 4...I would expect this to mean Gore will be losing a ton of touches this year as they transition towards Mack as their future starter..I think Gore is still likely the "starter", but wont sniff the 300 touches he got last season..More likely to be somewhere in the 150 touch range...
My prediction for his numbers this year? 500-600 yards and 3-4 TDs..If that turns out to be his final season, his stat line wont be 14k yards or 100 TDs...Nor a Pro Bowl or All-Pro...Wouldnt get my HOF vote...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
R.I.P. Cortez Kennedy.
Without knowing how Mack will perform I think it is hard to gauge Gore's production. Mack might be the number one back or he could be further down the depth chart.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Sad to see him pass so young.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Just an update...Listed my Extra Thomas on the bay for a 7 day auction with a $55 starting bid. Within 3 hours I got a message from a buyer wondering if I would move it for $75 now. I ended the auction and relisted it as a BIN for 71.50 plus 3.50 to ship. GONE immediately.
So its looking like 70ish would be my answer to that question....as of now. Im sure it will decrease as the pop rises...just like anything else.
Good to know. I appreciate the info. I have been 9ed to death lately on my Chrome rc subs between 2009-2014. A few nice 10s but I am growing a nice collection of Dez Bryant RCs in PSA 9. Good to see someone is hitting 10s
They are few and faw between for me lately. Unfortunately, my Favre Pro Set RCs didn't fare as well. Im still looking for a 10.
Did pretty well on the Chrome I subbed this last time though. Hit 10s on Travis Fredrick, Honeybadger, Travis Kelce, and LeVeon Bell....which is an extra for me if anyone is interested. Aside from the 2 Thomas RCs. Nothing major, ...but wins for me.
Awesome I just hit 10s on Clay Matthews. Jordy Nelson (refractor) Le'Veon Bell (refractor), DeMarco Murray, and an 89 Score Deion. I got 9ed yet again on JJ Watt though. Cannot hit that one in a 10 for the life of me
Great job. I am only needing the xfractor for Matthews in a 10 to have the rainbow.....(with the exception of the super, and the red/25....never see these). I do have an extra copy of the copper refractor/649 in a 10 available if anyone is interested in the colors. Its the only other refractor besides the red that is serial #d. Think its currently a pop 7.
There was a decent priced Watt 10 on the bay a while back....not sure if its still up or not.
Longtime lurker here. Returned to the hobby a few years ago after a 20-year hiatus and picked up where I left off...collecting pro football HOF rookies. I look forward to the announcement of senior committee nominees like it's a holiday. With that in mind...
Any insights into this year's contenders based on recent trends? Any guys particularly close to getting over the bar in recent years that have a strong advocate this year?
My thoughts on the seniors this year (we will get 2):
Odds are against anyone from the Safety position, or who played into the 1980s after S Kenny Easley was selected last year...That knocks out a descent sized group...Also wouldn't expect a QB, Special Teams player or a Raiders player due to those position pools already being thin and Stabler/Guy going in recent years.
The biggest backlogged positions IMO are LB and OL...Closely followed by DB and WR...Jim Marshall could also get a push due to the Super Bowl location this year, but the committee did select DL in both 2013 and 2014 so that could also hurt his odds...I will rank my top 5 possibles based on recent pushes and some of the other variables I mentioned here...
1-Jerry Kramer...He gets pushed every single year and with the next possible "Packers" player coming up Charles Woodson in 2021, this year could be his year...Then again, I think most people assume he will be a pick every year..IMO the most overlooked Senior candidate in existence...Named to NFL's 50th anniversary team as a top 50 player of all-time...To me, this is an easy one, but you need senior committee members in Canton on selection day who aren't trying to shock the world and I haven't heard with 5 are going this year yet...
2-Eddie Meador..He's gotten lots of discussion and votes in recent years..With the Rams moving, this could make for a nice story (all the voters are SPORTS WRITERS)
3-Lavvie Dilweg...Another Packer who likely wouldnt go in WITH Kramer..But if Kramer is headed to snubsville again, and the committee decides to look back at some of the older candidates after a 9 year run of post war candidates Dilweg has gotten plenty of discussion in the past year or two.
4-Al Wistert..His push from a few years ago (he made the final 5 senior list) seems to have gone quiet...But like Dilweg, I think this year the committee could look for some of the true old timers..If they don't go Dilweg, Wistert is the next best old timer (Pre-1950s),
5- Insert just about any LB here...Howley, Nobis, Curtis, Brazile, Gradishar...All have gotten strong consideration over the past 5-6 years and it would be a coin flip determining which guy they would choose to try and continue to fix this backlog after finally putting Hanburger, Robinson and Richter in a few years back...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cmon Howley.
I second that motion!
Does Dillweg have any cards or oddball issues?
It's well past time for Howley IMHO. Hope he's one of the two.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
Another vote for Howley!
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I have University of Michigan roots, so I'd like to see Wistert get one of the nods. Do we know which day the two nominees will be announced?
Mid-August..We will usually hear about the 5 Senior voters traveling to Canton a few days prior. Usually the final day they will bring in current HOFers who can speak on their final list of 5 Senior nominees and give opinions on them.Of course, guys like Wistert, there aren't many (any?) HOFers left who played with or against him..But If the voter rotation is what I believe it will be this year, I think we will get a pre-war finalist this year. Might be the last one we ever see, as some of the older senior committee members won't be around for too many more years.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And Lee Roy Jordan
It's to bad they don't set up a special committee like they did in baseball to look specifically at players long ago that might have been overlooked. I hope at least one player is from that era.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/2018-hof-senior-candidate/
A poll in line with what we have discussed here...As you see the list of names presented, keep in mind that Rick Gosselin is a long time member of the HOF senior committee..He's not just pulling these names out of thin air...Looks like the Jerry Kramer crowd stacked the ballot, but looks like all of these candidates are from the 60's-70s-80s era...
In which case, Kramer still is and has been the easiest candidate they could select. If he gets into the room this year, his election may be unanimous...At some point, the committee has to stop looking for forgotten players and put in guys who were denied election for other reasons...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dumbstruck Chuck Howley is not on that list. Ridiculous.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
The problem with Howley is that nothing distinguishes him from the rest of the Senior pool...5 first team All-Pros? There are 3 in the Senior Pool with 6...and 6 others with 5 (Jerry Kramer being one them)..Also, getting those nods in the 1960s hurts the value because the NFL and AFL both had a set of first team All-Pros vs. later when the team came from the NFL/AFL combined making it much tougher...
Super Bowl MVP? A ton of those guys not in the HOF...Yes, he is a rarity, a defensive player for a losing team, but look at the Colts offensive numbers that game and you'll understand why none of them were chosen..lol
Howley is a fine candidate and I don't think anyone would be upset or in disbelief if/when he ever becomes a senior committee finalist selection...But the list of "overlooked" and "deserving" candidates is long, yet the committee only gets to choose either 1 or 2 Seniors each year..Can make a case for about 30-40 guys on par with Howley...
I do believe he will eventually be inducted but could be another 40 year wait to be honest...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was listening to a radio show this week, I can't remember the name Fox Sports, and the guest said that he'd be pushing for Duke Slater.
Another excellent pre-war candidate. Although haven't heard his name being pushed by any of the senior committee members in quite a few years.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My top candidates from each decade:
20s- Duke Slater
30s- Lavvie Dilweg
40s- Al Wistert
50s- Charlie Conerly
60s- Jerry Kramer
70s- L.C Greenwood
80s- Lester Hayes
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Funny that getting those nods during the 1960's didn't hurt the HOF candidacy of other linebackers who spent the majority of their career in the 1960's. Specifically:
Nick Buoniconti - 5x All-AFL (5 overlapping with NFL).
Dick Butkis 6x All-Pro (4 overlapping with AFL), 2x second team All-Pro (1x overlapping with AFL).
Sam Huff 4x All-Pro (1 overlapping with AFL), 2x second team All-Pro (both overlapping with AFL).
Ray Nitschke 3x All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL), 4x second team All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL).
Dave Robinson 2x All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL), 1x second team All-Pro (all overlapping with AFL).
Dave Wilcox - 5x All-Pro (1x overlapping with AFL), 2x second team All-Pro (1 overlapping with AFL).
Chuck Howley - 5x All-Pro (4x overlapping with AFL), 1x second team All-Pro.
So I don't see how this is an issue for Howley when it wasn't for the others - a number of whom have been in for a long, long time.
It's often difficult for the offensive team to look good when the defensive team is playing so well. I don't think it's a knock against Howley at all that he had two interceptions in the game and was named the MVP. The Colts gained 329 yards of offense - most after Johnny Unitas was knocked out of the football game. I don't know that you can understate the accomplishment - he was the first defensive player, first non-quarterback and only losing team player to ever win this award.
How many of those other candidates have been finalists in the past? For example:
Jerry Kramer - 10x finalist
Conerly - 7x Finalist
Greenwood - 6x Finalist
Lester Hayes - 4x Finalist
Curious that Tom Landry, Hall of Fame coach in his own right, coached one of Howley's peers above (Sam Huff) with the Giants and had this to say about Howley:
“I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anybody better at linebacker than Chuck Howley,” Landry said.
Making it all the more galling that Howley has never even been a finalist. That's why it's ridiculous to me. The same with some of the others above like Wistert. Their career and accomplishments have been disrespected for nearly 50 years (more in some cases) and it's very difficult to understand why. There are many other deserving players - there is no doubt, but compared to his peers above, I don't see a glaring reason why:
A: Those players are all in and Howley is out.
B: Why Howley was never a finalist to receive the discussion due.
Just my opinion.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
I remember thinking when Hanburger got in - "if he's in Lee Roy Jordan and Howley should be in". Big fan of Lester but Cliff Branch should be the next Raider IMO.
Addressing these 60s LBs:
Nick Buoniconti ---MLB...elected 21st year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
Dick Butkis --MLB...elected 1st year of eligibility
Sam Huff --MLB...elected 7th year of eligibility
Ray Nitschke --MLB...elected 1st year of eligibility
Dave Robinson .--OLB...elected 34th year of eligibility...Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
Dave Wilcox --OLB...elected 21st year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
One you left off:
Chris Hanburger--OLB elected 28th year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
-The only ones that weren't affected by playing during the 60s were Butkus and Nitschke...Maybe Huff, but Huff played in 6 NFL Title games. All of the others were Senior Committee slections and none of them were ever a top 15 finalist. This was common for the position during that time
-MLB was and still is treated VERY differently by HOF voters..Same goes for OT vs. OG and CB v. S, they just value those positions and give them more credence..Usually this is rightly so as those are typically more important positions to fill
-I have no idea what put Robinson and Wilcox, both of whom waited until they were in the Senior Pool to ever be a finalist, over Howley...All 3 were great OLBs
-Robinson was NFL All-Decade Team of the 1960s along with Butkus and Nitschke..Tommy Nobis and Larry Morris the other 2, no Howley or Wilcox
-The Super Bowl MVP for a losing team and 1st Defensive player to receive it FACTUALLY has done nothing to help Howley's case. I would have assumed it would be something that helps his case, but the voters over the years have shown that it simply isn't given much value
I am not a voter, so I can only give the reasons I can try and comprehend..The biggest one is simply that Howley played OLB, a position, especially for the HOF voters in the 70s, 80s, 90s era, that wasn't given high grades for importance. It's why their is currently such a backlog of LBs in the Senior Pool...Many of which never made a top 15 vote, rightly or wrongly...Who was Howley clearly better than? Howley was in this group talent wise no doubt, but I've not seen any evidence that he was so vastly superior that he should have been in the HOF well before any of these other guys...As I stated, i think at some point he will get in as his name is in the discussion literally every year the past 10 years or so..But he simply hasn't got the votes yet...
What would be your best guess as to why he hasn't gotten the votes?
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cliff was close either his first or second year as a Senior...But I believe he is behind Dilweg, Otis Taylor and now possibly Drew Pearson at the WR position in the Senior Pool...If Hayes isn't the closest CB, then he is 2nd behind Eddie Meador at CB in the Senior Pool..
With Stabler and Guy recently going in as Seniors, my guess is that it's going to be a few years before we get another Raider...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I didn't leave him off. I listed linebackers who played the majority of their career in the 1960's. He played the majority of his career in the 1970's.
I think this is where we are getting bogged down. You're asking me to make the argument why Howley is clearly better than other deserving candidates and I didn't make that case for my disgust in his not being on the list. My outrage is over the fact he's never been a finalist. He's never been discussed. That he's in the same group talent and accomplishment wise but never been considered is my problem with this. Maybe instead of selecting a finalist for the 11th time or the 8th time or the 7th time or the 5th time as the four I outlined above would be if selected - there wouldn't be such a backlog if some of these equally deserving candidates could get into the room to be discussed. Part of the problem here is a problem of their (the writers and the senior committees) own creation - many deserving candidates sitting and waiting with no glaring separation between their careers and players who have been finalists 10x and not selected.
I think Howley falls into the same category as some other Cowboys players of the 1960's and the 1970's - had the 1960's Cowboys beaten the Packers in one of those NFL championship games, he'd be in long ago. Heck for Howley all that might've had to happen different was winning Super Bowl V as you suggest. Had the 1970's Cowboys beaten the Steelers in one of those two Super Bowls, Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson would likely already be in the Hall of Fame.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
I understand that both can be answers to trivia questions but one feat is a career accomplishment and the other is an embarrassing moment. If the voters are considering both in the same regard then their thinking is flawed.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Not to steer this away from the LB discussion but I dug a little deeper on the WR's and was somewhat surprised to see how Drew Pearson compared to a few key folks. Still just my opinion but Branch should have been in a while back. These #'s don't include playoffs but will still give big picture. All obviously have at least 1 SB win but Stallworth, Swann and Branch have mulitple.
Stallworth 165 537 8723 63