Not that I am a tad bias toward the Raiders....but.....
Branch being the fastest man in FB for many years was often double teamed.
I'm not all that unsure one catch didn't make Swann a HOFer. Not saying he wasn't great but I would easily rather have Branch on my team vs Swannie.
A question I have asked defensive players from his time "who was the best wide receiver in your era." Most have said Otis Taylor. His stats can't compare to the pass heavy game after he played.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I didn't leave him off. I listed linebackers who played the majority of their career in the 1960's. He played the majority of his career in the 1970's.
Who was Howley clearly better than? Howley was in this group talent wise no doubt, but I've not seen any evidence that he was so vastly superior that he should have been in the HOF well before any of these other guys...
I think this is where we are getting bogged down. You're asking me to make the argument why Howley is clearly better than other deserving candidates and I didn't make that case for my disgust in his not being on the list. My outrage is over the fact he's never been a finalist. He's never been discussed. That he's in the same group talent and accomplishment wise but never been considered is my problem with this. Maybe instead of selecting a finalist for the 11th time or the 8th time or the 7th time or the 5th time as the four I outlined above would be if selected - there wouldn't be such a backlog if some of these equally deserving candidates could get into the room to be discussed. Part of the problem here is a problem of their (the writers and the senior committees) own creation - many deserving candidates sitting and waiting with no glaring separation between their careers and players who have been finalists 10x and not selected.
What would be your best guess as to why he hasn't gotten the votes?
I think Howley falls into the same category as some other Cowboys players of the 1960's and the 1970's - had the 1960's Cowboys beaten the Packers in one of those NFL championship games, he'd be in long ago. Heck for Howley all that might've had to happen different was winning Super Bowl V as you suggest. Had the 1970's Cowboys beaten the Steelers in one of those two Super Bowls, Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson would likely already be in the Hall of Fame.
@JasP24 said:
Addressing these 60s LBs:
One you left off:
Chris Hanburger--OLB elected 28th year of eligibility..Senior Committee Selection Was NEVER a modern finalist
I didn't leave him off. I listed linebackers who played the majority of their career in the 1960's. He played the majority of his career in the 1970's.
Who was Howley clearly better than? Howley was in this group talent wise no doubt, but I've not seen any evidence that he was so vastly superior that he should have been in the HOF well before any of these other guys...
I think this is where we are getting bogged down. You're asking me to make the argument why Howley is clearly better than other deserving candidates and I didn't make that case for my disgust in his not being on the list. My outrage is over the fact he's never been a finalist. He's never been discussed. That he's in the same group talent and accomplishment wise but never been considered is my problem with this. Maybe instead of selecting a finalist for the 11th time or the 8th time or the 7th time or the 5th time as the four I outlined above would be if selected - there wouldn't be such a backlog if some of these equally deserving candidates could get into the room to be discussed. Part of the problem here is a problem of their (the writers and the senior committees) own creation - many deserving candidates sitting and waiting with no glaring separation between their careers and players who have been finalists 10x and not selected.
What would be your best guess as to why he hasn't gotten the votes?
I think Howley falls into the same category as some other Cowboys players of the 1960's and the 1970's - had the 1960's Cowboys beaten the Packers in one of those NFL championship games, he'd be in long ago. Heck for Howley all that might've had to happen different was winning Super Bowl V as you suggest. Had the 1970's Cowboys beaten the Steelers in one of those two Super Bowls, Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson would likely already be in the Hall of Fame.
--Hanburger played half of the decade of the 60s, and being one of the most similar in style and substance to Howley, I included him...
--Agree that Howley has never been discussed..Nor had Hanburger, nor had Wilcox, or Robinson, or many other recent Senior committee selections...This is something they started to do using almost your exact reasoning, one in which I personally believe is the wrong way to treat Senior candidates...Instead of looking for these VASTLY overlooked guys, who could never crack a top 15 during their modern candidacy, what about the guys like Kramer, Greenwood, Kuechenberg, who received support during their modern candidacy...Enough so that they got into the room but couldnt crack the top 4 or 5 that day...Becoming a modern finalist when others were not means they had more votes, more support and were at LEAST as deserving if not moreso than guys who never got the votes to get in the room...Making the top 15 and not getting in doesnt mean they had their candidacy discussed and were determined to be NOT HOF worthy...It means there were simply better candidates that year. So for me, the fact that guys like this were getting MORE VOTES by the HOF voters 20 years ago (many of them different voters than we have now) shouldn't mean they get leapfrogged by someone else simply because they never had enough support to make a top 15...
--Cowboy bias, IMO is a myth..Lots of Cowboys in the HOF...Lots of worthy players from many teams who are borderline candidates and are not in...Roger Staubach wasn't borderline...Dorsett, Lilly, these are slam dunks and therefore got it..Bob Hayes, Rayfield Wright, a bit more borderline and eventually got in...Howley is far from a slam dunk HOFer...He's a borderline guy who's career matchups up closely to guys like Wilcox, Hanburger, Robinson at the same position...He's a solid Senior candidate, but no more solid than another 20 guys...I'm hoping the committee will stop looking for fringe guys who never got in the room and select the guys who were very close for many years but didnt get in because they were up against stronger candidates in a limited selection process (used to be 4, now 5 modern maximum).
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
I understand that both can be answers to trivia questions but one feat is a career accomplishment and the other is an embarrassing moment. If the voters are considering both in the same regard then their thinking is flawed.
I dont disagree that many of these voters have very flawed thinking...How else is T.O.not in already??? lol
That being said, its also flawed to believe that a defensive player being selected as the Super Bowl MVP for a losing team is enough to distinguish that player from other players with similar careers at his position. Howley SHOULD BE the next OLB to get in...But very good chance the next LB Senior selection is an MLB, probably higher probability than OLB...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@Pinkcatfish said:
When looking at Otis Taylor's numbers - it makes Alworth and Maynard's careers that much more impressive during that same era.
Quite a few WRs with great numbers who never got in...Look no further than Billy Howton, who was the NFL all-time leader in receptions and yards when he retired...Yet he's never even been a top 15 finalist...What we can glean from things like this is that the voters(members of the media) do not put much stock in numbers...Its not really about what guys accumulate but rather how they acquired those yards...Style being given more credence than substance..Same with QBs, RBs, etc..Its nothing new and isnt going to change anytime soon, so its important to be aware of it when you see who is getting voted in and who isn't each year. They aren't being "overlooked", the numbers are simply being devalued. Same way that the voters devalued a Super Bowl MVP award for a player on a losing team..And its also something that will hurt Frank Gore's HOF case down the road as discussed recently in this thread.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
I understand that both can be answers to trivia questions but one feat is a career accomplishment and the other is an embarrassing moment. If the voters are considering both in the same regard then their thinking is flawed.
I dont disagree that many of these voters have very flawed thinking...How else is T.O.not in already??? lol
That being said, its also flawed to believe that a defensive player being selected as the Super Bowl MVP for a losing team is enough to distinguish that player from other players with similar careers at his position. Howley SHOULD BE the next OLB to get in...But very good chance the next LB Senior selection is an MLB, probably higher probability than OLB...
The award would be insignificant if Howley was an average player who lacked career accolades. Since he was a standout player for most of his career the award should be taken into consideration by the voters as well as the fact that he was the first defensive player and the only player to win the honor from a losing team. Howley's stat line from his two Super Bowl appearances includes 3 INT's and 1 Fumble Recovery. If he was a HOF caliber player how does his performance in the NFL's biggest game not carry any additional merit with the voters? If that does not distinguish Howley from his other accomplished peers I am not sure what does.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
I understand that both can be answers to trivia questions but one feat is a career accomplishment and the other is an embarrassing moment. If the voters are considering both in the same regard then their thinking is flawed.
I dont disagree that many of these voters have very flawed thinking...How else is T.O.not in already??? lol
That being said, its also flawed to believe that a defensive player being selected as the Super Bowl MVP for a losing team is enough to distinguish that player from other players with similar careers at his position. Howley SHOULD BE the next OLB to get in...But very good chance the next LB Senior selection is an MLB, probably higher probability than OLB...
The award would be insignificant if Howley was an average player who lacked career accolades. Since he was a standout player for most of his career the award should be taken into consideration by the voters as well as the fact that he was the first defensive player and the only player to win the honor from a losing team. Howley's stat line from his two Super Bowl appearances includes 3 INT's and 1 Fumble Recovery. If he was a HOF caliber player how does his performance in the NFL's biggest game not carry any additional merit with the voters? If that does not distinguish Howley from his other accomplished peers I am not sure what does.
Again, it seems to me that Super Bowl performances in losing efforts haven't helped anyone get in the HOF the same way that performances in Super Bowl WINS have...His FIVE 1st Team All-Pro selections should be the lead line in any push for his candidacy...But unfortunately the lead in tends to be "the only Super Bowl MVP on a losing team"..
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I personally believe his chances would have been better over the years had he not been given the MVP in the loss..In a Super Bowl game that has commonly called by many as the ugliest Super Bowl in history..There were ELEVEN turnovers in the game, 7 by the Colts alone yet they still won the game..lol
I think ultimately it has taken away from what should be a career that stands on its own merits as HOF worthy. Thats the only assumption I can come to as to why a guy like Howley never once even made the top 15 finalists...
Here is a list of NON-HOF PLAYERS who did in fact make the top 15 over Howley from 1979-1998 (his years as a modern finalist). These players got more support from HOF voters over that 20 year period...
Charley Conerly
Johnny Robinson
Jim Tyrer
Jerry Kramer
Lee Roy Jordan--Fellow LB from SAME TEAM..lol
L.C. Greenwood
Ken Anderson
So for me, While I think Howley is certainly worthy of HOF consideration, he's done nothing between 1998-2017 that says he should now jump the line ahead of these guys who got more support as modern candidates...This also says that his Super Bowl MVP award did nothing to help his cause as his teammate Lee Roy Jordan was a top 15 finalist (Jordan has no SBMVP award) over Howley when they were both on the same ballots...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How many Super Bowl MVP's have been All Pro 5 times and not in the HOF?
Personally, I'd bet Howley would have been in already if either : a-The Cowboys WON that game and he was Super Bowl MVP OR b-he'd never been awarded that Super Bowl MVP...I think it turns him into more of a trivia question for getting it in a losing effort and looses sight of what was really a HOF worthy career...If/when he does get in, his losing Super Bowl MVP will be the lead sentence at his inauguration, which to me is sad...
Similar to Jim Marshall...If he doesn't run that fumble back the opposite direction, that guy is probably in the HOF awhile ago...If/when he ever gets in, that will be what he is most remembered for.
I understand that both can be answers to trivia questions but one feat is a career accomplishment and the other is an embarrassing moment. If the voters are considering both in the same regard then their thinking is flawed.
I dont disagree that many of these voters have very flawed thinking...How else is T.O.not in already??? lol
That being said, its also flawed to believe that a defensive player being selected as the Super Bowl MVP for a losing team is enough to distinguish that player from other players with similar careers at his position. Howley SHOULD BE the next OLB to get in...But very good chance the next LB Senior selection is an MLB, probably higher probability than OLB...
The award would be insignificant if Howley was an average player who lacked career accolades. Since he was a standout player for most of his career the award should be taken into consideration by the voters as well as the fact that he was the first defensive player and the only player to win the honor from a losing team. Howley's stat line from his two Super Bowl appearances includes 3 INT's and 1 Fumble Recovery. If he was a HOF caliber player how does his performance in the NFL's biggest game not carry any additional merit with the voters? If that does not distinguish Howley from his other accomplished peers I am not sure what does.
Again, it seems to me that Super Bowl performances in losing efforts haven't helped anyone get in the HOF the same way that performances in Super Bowl WINS have...His FIVE 1st Team All-Pro selections should be the lead line in any push for his candidacy...But unfortunately the lead in tends to be "the only Super Bowl MVP on a losing team"..
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I personally believe his chances would have been better over the years had he not been given the MVP in the loss..In a Super Bowl game that has commonly called by many as the ugliest Super Bowl in history..There were ELEVEN turnovers in the game, 7 by the Colts alone yet they still won the game..lol
I think ultimately it has taken away from what should be a career that stands on its own merits as HOF worthy. Thats the only assumption I can come to as to why a guy like Howley never once even made the top 15 finalists...
Here is a list of NON-HOF PLAYERS who did in fact make the top 15 over Howley from 1979-1998 (his years as a modern finalist). These players got more support from HOF voters over that 20 year period...
Charley Conerly
Johnny Robinson
Jim Tyrer
Jerry Kramer
Lee Roy Jordan--Fellow LB from SAME TEAM..lol
L.C. Greenwood
Ken Anderson
So for me, While I think Howley is certainly worthy of HOF consideration, he's done nothing between 1998-2017 that says he should now jump the line ahead of these guys who got more support as modern candidates...This also says that his Super Bowl MVP award did nothing to help his cause as his teammate Lee Roy Jordan was a top 15 finalist (Jordan has no SBMVP award) over Howley when they were both on the same ballots...
Thank you for posting the list of candidates. Tyer, Robinson, and Kramer are all well deserving candidates but I think a pretty convincing argument can be made that Howley had a better career than the other players just based on All Pro seasons.
If the voters are holding the MVP award against Howley then I don't understand the logic. He had strong performances in both Super Bowls so they can't say he was great in the one and terrible in another.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Seems like it's obvious to everyone but the Senior Committee voters that Jerry Kramer's exclusion from the HOF up to this point is nothing short of criminal. He's the top player on almost every "who should be in who isn't in" list out there. Come on guys. Put this man in the HOF while he still has some years left on Earth to enjoy it!!!
Howley or Ken Anderson would be my #2 choice this year.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
If Kramer does not get inducted this year I would be surprised. He seems to have momentum.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
Whe it comes to the voters I completely agree and recognize that they treat positions differently. Even with a Super Bowl victory and MVP it is possible that Thomas would have to wait. This scenario,even though hypothetical, demonstrates the imperfection of the voter's logic. Thomas and Howley were both named All Pro five times compared to Dent and Martin who earned the honor once. 6/5 and 7/5 seem more impressive than 4/1 but the voters have a different view.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
Whe it comes to the voters I completely agree and recognize that they treat positions differently. Even with a Super Bowl victory and MVP it is possible that Thomas would have to wait. This scenario,even though hypothetical, demonstrates the imperfection of the voter's logic. Thomas and Howley were both named All Pro five times compared to Dent and Martin who earned the honor once. 6/5 and 7/5 seem more impressive than 4/1 but the voters have a different view.
I think the voters, in most cases, place visual dominance above any award/accolade...If true, then it becomes easier to understand why OG, OLB and S are so very underrepresented in the HOF...And why QBs and RBs who were dominant have always tended to get in even without rings and accolades...First Team All-Pro and Pro Bowl nods, and Player of the Year awards are what most of us look to because the average person doesn't watch as much or know as much as the football writers...
At least, thats my hypothesis on how the writers view things...It's been especially bad within the Senior Committee where they feel like they have to find the most obscure, never before discussed candidate to show us how smart they are on football players..Mini-GMs so to speak...Instead of putting in the guys who have the most accolades or were very close in the voting during their modern eligibility...
I do believe the HOF selection process has gotten better over the past 20 years that I have closely monitored, but still a long way to go...For now, I would tell you not to assume a player is HOF bound simply because he has a bunch of Pro Bowls or All-Pro selections...Heck, or even All-Decade or All Half Century selections...I try and make my predictions based on their voting patterns and previously known criteria. I still never guess 100% because simply having a good presentation in the HOF meeting can create enough push for a guy you wouldnt expect would get in...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FYI, 24 August will be the Senior Finalists selection and announcement.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
Whe it comes to the voters I completely agree and recognize that they treat positions differently. Even with a Super Bowl victory and MVP it is possible that Thomas would have to wait. This scenario,even though hypothetical, demonstrates the imperfection of the voter's logic. Thomas and Howley were both named All Pro five times compared to Dent and Martin who earned the honor once. 6/5 and 7/5 seem more impressive than 4/1 but the voters have a different view.
I think the voters, in most cases, place visual dominance above any award/accolade...If true, then it becomes easier to understand why OG, OLB and S are so very underrepresented in the HOF...And why QBs and RBs who were dominant have always tended to get in even without rings and accolades...First Team All-Pro and Pro Bowl nods, and Player of the Year awards are what most of us look to because the average person doesn't watch as much or know as much as the football writers...
At least, thats my hypothesis on how the writers view things...It's been especially bad within the Senior Committee where they feel like they have to find the most obscure, never before discussed candidate to show us how smart they are on football players..Mini-GMs so to speak...Instead of putting in the guys who have the most accolades or were very close in the voting during their modern eligibility...
I do believe the HOF selection process has gotten better over the past 20 years that I have closely monitored, but still a long way to go...For now, I would tell you not to assume a player is HOF bound simply because he has a bunch of Pro Bowls or All-Pro selections...Heck, or even All-Decade or All Half Century selections...I try and make my predictions based on their voting patterns and previously known criteria. I still never guess 100% because simply having a good presentation in the HOF meeting can create enough push for a guy you wouldnt expect would get in...
I have always wondered how much football the writers actually watch and just how informed they are when they do watch. There is also the the issue of who they speak to as trusted sources and if their opinion can ruin a candidates chances of ever making the Hall of Fame.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
Whe it comes to the voters I completely agree and recognize that they treat positions differently. Even with a Super Bowl victory and MVP it is possible that Thomas would have to wait. This scenario,even though hypothetical, demonstrates the imperfection of the voter's logic. Thomas and Howley were both named All Pro five times compared to Dent and Martin who earned the honor once. 6/5 and 7/5 seem more impressive than 4/1 but the voters have a different view.
I think the voters, in most cases, place visual dominance above any award/accolade...If true, then it becomes easier to understand why OG, OLB and S are so very underrepresented in the HOF...And why QBs and RBs who were dominant have always tended to get in even without rings and accolades...First Team All-Pro and Pro Bowl nods, and Player of the Year awards are what most of us look to because the average person doesn't watch as much or know as much as the football writers...
At least, thats my hypothesis on how the writers view things...It's been especially bad within the Senior Committee where they feel like they have to find the most obscure, never before discussed candidate to show us how smart they are on football players..Mini-GMs so to speak...Instead of putting in the guys who have the most accolades or were very close in the voting during their modern eligibility...
I do believe the HOF selection process has gotten better over the past 20 years that I have closely monitored, but still a long way to go...For now, I would tell you not to assume a player is HOF bound simply because he has a bunch of Pro Bowls or All-Pro selections...Heck, or even All-Decade or All Half Century selections...I try and make my predictions based on their voting patterns and previously known criteria. I still never guess 100% because simply having a good presentation in the HOF meeting can create enough push for a guy you wouldnt expect would get in...
I have always wondered how much football the writers actually watch and just how informed they are when they do watch. There is also the the issue of who they speak to as trusted sources and if their opinion can ruin a candidates chances of ever making the Hall of Fame.
Well, some are well versed and that's all they cover and have covered for years..Others, well not so much...Some were chosen almost at random, were/are just TV sportscasters who aren't well versed at all in the history of the game...They should have to take a 100 question quiz and pass it to be allowed to be a voter...The bigger the HOF becomes, and it has grown immensely over the past 10-15 years (some of that due to those of us right here in this thread collecting the set) , and at some point they will get more serious with the selection of voters..We've already seen this in some of the new voters who replaced some retiring ones...
More so then their trusted sources, it can be their own personal biases (Player "A" was mean to me in the locker room) that skew some of these writers into voting their ego rather than their brain...Its a subjective system and that's the beauty of it..But so are elections in this country and that hasn't exactly produced stellar classes of politicians to serve us the past 20 years or so either...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Drew Pearson was nominated for inclusion in the All-Time WRs set. Got a big 'ol no from me.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Branch could get in someday..My guess he's got at least another 10 years behind 2 or 3 better WR candidates...He is probably now the #2 Raiders player in the Senior pool behind Lester Hayes, and should stay in that position for the foreseeable future... But Stabler and Guy just went in recently as Seniors so its gonna be hard pressed for the committee to sell another TWO Raiders going in ahead of players on 20+ other teams who are equal to or more deserving who's franchise hasn't been represented recently at the HOF.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@jay0791 said:
In reality Branch is not a HOF receiver and never will reach Canton.
He's borderline for sure...Numbers don't mean a ton for WRs from the 70s, and he was a difference maker, deep threat of his day...I don't think his odds are great, but if they ever look for another WR from that era, Branch compares pretty favorably to the other options...Drew Pearson,Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael...
As far as who is"deserving" of HOF status, that falls back on what you believe the HOF should be...Inclusive or exclusive...I prefer exclusive...Would rather have borderline guys not in vs. putting every borderline guy in...So for me, the truly deserving candidates are the ones that will never get to the senior pool...While there are lots of overlooked/underappreciated borderline HOFers out there, .I'd be completely fine with Branch going in or staying out. Moss and T.O on the other hand, i would have a major issue any year these 2 truly deserving WRs are not voted in...
Will be interesting to see how those two are handled this year...Do they make Moss wait like they are doing to T.O.? Do they put T.O. in before Moss? Do they skip both of them this year? Only way to do that is to double up at some other position (Safety, O-Line) and/or put Urlacher in first ballot...We will certainly get Ray Lewis first ballot, and at least 2 from the group who made the cut to 10 last year (Dawkins, Lynch, Law, Boselli, Mawae)...Using logic, that says 1 Safety and 1 O-lineman at least...
With T.O and Bruce on the ballot, makes me think they put Moss in this year..One more slight to T.O. before he goes in the 2019 class...Urlacher is cut at 10 (likely) , I dont think Seymour can jump Ty Law...I dont think Jacoby can jump Boselli or Mawae and is likely headed to the Senior Pool...Coryell getting in before Moss? Urlacher? I just don;t see that.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My current hypothesis on Class of 2018 modern guys:
Ray Lewis
Randy Moss
John Lynch
Tony Boselli
5th HOFer between Dawkins, Mawae, Law, Urlacher or Coryell.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
@JasP24 said:
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
Whe it comes to the voters I completely agree and recognize that they treat positions differently. Even with a Super Bowl victory and MVP it is possible that Thomas would have to wait. This scenario,even though hypothetical, demonstrates the imperfection of the voter's logic. Thomas and Howley were both named All Pro five times compared to Dent and Martin who earned the honor once. 6/5 and 7/5 seem more impressive than 4/1 but the voters have a different view.
I think the voters, in most cases, place visual dominance above any award/accolade...If true, then it becomes easier to understand why OG, OLB and S are so very underrepresented in the HOF...And why QBs and RBs who were dominant have always tended to get in even without rings and accolades...First Team All-Pro and Pro Bowl nods, and Player of the Year awards are what most of us look to because the average person doesn't watch as much or know as much as the football writers...
At least, thats my hypothesis on how the writers view things...It's been especially bad within the Senior Committee where they feel like they have to find the most obscure, never before discussed candidate to show us how smart they are on football players..Mini-GMs so to speak...Instead of putting in the guys who have the most accolades or were very close in the voting during their modern eligibility...
I do believe the HOF selection process has gotten better over the past 20 years that I have closely monitored, but still a long way to go...For now, I would tell you not to assume a player is HOF bound simply because he has a bunch of Pro Bowls or All-Pro selections...Heck, or even All-Decade or All Half Century selections...I try and make my predictions based on their voting patterns and previously known criteria. I still never guess 100% because simply having a good presentation in the HOF meeting can create enough push for a guy you wouldnt expect would get in...
I have always wondered how much football the writers actually watch and just how informed they are when they do watch. There is also the the issue of who they speak to as trusted sources and if their opinion can ruin a candidates chances of ever making the Hall of Fame.
Well, some are well versed and that's all they cover and have covered for years..Others, well not so much...Some were chosen almost at random, were/are just TV sportscasters who aren't well versed at all in the history of the game...They should have to take a 100 question quiz and pass it to be allowed to be a voter...The bigger the HOF becomes, and it has grown immensely over the past 10-15 years (some of that due to those of us right here in this thread collecting the set) , and at some point they will get more serious with the selection of voters..We've already seen this in some of the new voters who replaced some retiring ones...
More so then their trusted sources, it can be their own personal biases (Player "A" was mean to me in the locker room) that skew some of these writers into voting their ego rather than their brain...Its a subjective system and that's the beauty of it..But so are elections in this country and that hasn't exactly produced stellar classes of politicians to serve us the past 20 years or so either...
I completely agree with you on the Hall of Fame voters and the 100 question quiz, nice idea!
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@Pinkcatfish said:
Not to steer this away from the LB discussion but I dug a little deeper on the WR's and was somewhat surprised to see how Drew Pearson compared to a few key folks. Still just my opinion but Branch should have been in a while back. These #'s don't include playoffs but will still give big picture. All obviously have at least 1 SB win but Stallworth, Swann and Branch have mulitple.
Branch - 183 Games 501 Recpt 8685 Yds 67 TD's
Otis T 130 410 7360 57
Pearson 156 489 7822 48
Swann 116 336 5462 51
Stallworth 165 537 8723 63
just curious...How do Gary Collins (1964 NFL Championship game MVP) career stats compare to Lynn Swann's?
Successful transactions with FavreFan1971, ffishonn, Davemri, Publius, DavidPuddy, frcarvell, recbball, and many others...
Took a look and Collins compares quite well to Swann:
Collins played in 127 games (vs 116) with 331 recpts (vs 336) . 5299 yards (vs 5462). BIG difference in TDs though - Collins had 70 ! Swann 51. Of course, Swann is the exception to the rule with his Super Bowl heroics. So while the comparison is favorable for Collins against Swann if you start looking at Stallworth, Branch, Otis Taylor and Pearson as a comparison not as strong. However, IMO that 70 TD stat is pretty impressive.
Thanks for doing the legwork, PCF...Collins had 3 TD catches in the Championship game, which I believe is STILL the all time record for Title games/Super bowls. I was just a young kid, but Collins was always one of the very best of his era....
Successful transactions with FavreFan1971, ffishonn, Davemri, Publius, DavidPuddy, frcarvell, recbball, and many others...
Swann is never a good example to compare anyone to stat wise...Just as pinkcatfish points out above, Swann made the HOF after a very long wait, but he made it mostly on the backs of some of what are considered the greatest catches in Super Bowl history..For him, it was style over substance...That continues to this day..Just compare Terrell Davis stats to say Corey Dillon or Fred Taylor...There is no comparison...Its not what he did, but the way he did it...
I've never even seen Gary Collins name in the top 15 Senior cutdown list..Similar to guys like Billy Howton and Del Shofner...From what I can tell, these guys put up great numbers and some even had important moments..But when it comes to inducting them into the HOF, the senior committee doesn't seem to know who they even are...Which probably means they have no chance of ever being elected. Pearson hasn't been in the conversation in years until his speech at the NFL Draft that is getting his name back in the conversation. Pearson is a Team of the Decade guy, and that is one award the voters tend to value quite heavily.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@Pinkcatfish said:
Not to steer this away from the LB discussion but I dug a little deeper on the WR's and was somewhat surprised to see how Drew Pearson compared to a few key folks. Still just my opinion but Branch should have been in a while back. These #'s don't include playoffs but will still give big picture. All obviously have at least 1 SB win but Stallworth, Swann and Branch have mulitple.
Branch - 183 Games 501 Recpt 8685 Yds 67 TD's
Otis T 130 410 7360 57
Pearson 156 489 7822 48
Swann 116 336 5462 51
Stallworth 165 537 8723 63
just curious...How do Gary Collins (1964 NFL Championship game MVP) career stats compare to Lynn Swann's?
I would put the wide receiver below from the 70's ahead of Branch, Pearson and anyone else not in the HOF. See if you can tell me who it is. (I know JP knows).
1968-1983
208 Games
579 Receptions
10,372 Yards
76 TDs
5 seasons in the top 10 in receiving yards (led the league twice), 4 times in the top 10 in receptions and TDs, and 5 Pro Bowls. Strictly from a statistical standpoint, he is IMO clearly the most deserving WR from the 70's yet to be enshrined in Cooperstown.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Not only that jay but had he retired a few years earlier he wouldn't be lumped into that dreaded "accumulator" category which is usually the first knock on him you will hear when debating his HOF credentials.
He fits right into that group of 70s WRs and we could, although not likely or anytime soon, see 1 of them get into the HOF.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Excited for the announcement tomorrow. My best guess (based on no unique insight whatsoever) is that Jerry Kramer finally gets the call, plus Johnny Robinson.
@DEFPOTEC said:
Excited for the announcement tomorrow. My best guess (based on no unique insight whatsoever) is that Jerry Kramer finally gets the call, plus Johnny Robinson.
I haven't been able to find any info. on the announcement. Do you know what time it will be? Live announcement or no?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I took the quiz a few days ago, but I don't remember how many I got. Maybe high 20's.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
@DEFPOTEC said:
Excited for the announcement tomorrow. My best guess (based on no unique insight whatsoever) is that Jerry Kramer finally gets the call, plus Johnny Robinson.
I haven't been able to find any info. on the announcement. Do you know what time it will be? Live announcement or no?
There isn't typically a live or formal announcement. They just put out a press release once they finish the meeting. I'm hoping to get a heads up on what current HOFers they will bring in tomorrow as advisors. That will usually help you narrow down the odds as they tend to bring in HOFers who played against one or more of the guys on the final cut to 5 seniors.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Art Shell and Carl Eller advisors. If it's not Jerry Kramer in one of the slots this year he's never going in.
Also lends some credence to Jim Marshall.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Also, two of the 5 voters today were Texas reps/from Texas. Picking Brazile(solid choice by the way) over Howley pretty much means Howley won't get in within the next 20 years or so if ever.
Not sure who the other 3 were in the final 5 but usually find out down the road.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
While deserving I guess, little disappointed with Brazile. No real issue just kind of "blah". That one could be an interesting debate with voters. Of course everyone could see this was the year for Kramer.
@JasP24 said:
Also, two of the 5 voters today were Texas reps/from Texas. Picking Brazile(solid choice by the way) over Howley pretty much means Howley won't get in within the next 20 years or so if ever.
Not sure who the other 3 were in the final 5 but usually find out down the road.
@JasP24 said:
Also, two of the 5 voters today were Texas reps/from Texas. Picking Brazile(solid choice by the way) over Howley pretty much means Howley won't get in within the next 20 years or so if ever.
>
Not sure who the other 3 were in the final 5 but usually find out down the road.
Glad to see both players receive the nomination as they are worthy candidates but I hope one day Howley gets the recognition his career deserves.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@Pinkcatfish said:
While deserving I guess, little disappointed with Brazile. No real issue just kind of "blah". That one could be an interesting debate with voters. Of course everyone could see this was the year for Kramer.
I agree, Kramer had been building steam all year and it almost seemed like Rich Gosselin kept dropping hints in the Talk of Fame blog that Kramer had one spot locked up.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Actually very excited about Dr. Doom getting the nod. Classic nickname, of course. Would also join Sweetness as the second Jackson State Class of 1975 draftee in the hall. Toss in Lem Barney (Class of 1967) and Jackie Slater (Class of 1976) and that would make four Jackson State draftees in a 10-year span in the hall, with Harold Jackson (Class of 1968) hopefully making it five some day. Pretty impressive.
Fingers crossed Brazile and Kramer both get the final nod in February. Really don't like it when senior nominees don't make the final cut. Only worsens the backlog.
And well done to whoever nabbed the strong PSA 8 for only $13 on eBay within minutes of the announcement! Quick work. Also looks like some really sharp raw copies went quickly. Good luck to anyone submitting theirs. Hope to see some high grades.
Looks like Beathard got the nod for Contributor- good choice IMO. Still digesting that Jerry Jones got in. Really hope the committee slows down on picking owners.
Comments
Sorry about the formatting getting messed up above
Not that I am a tad bias toward the Raiders....but.....
Branch being the fastest man in FB for many years was often double teamed.
I'm not all that unsure one catch didn't make Swann a HOFer. Not saying he wasn't great but I would easily rather have Branch on my team vs Swannie.
A question I have asked defensive players from his time "who was the best wide receiver in your era." Most have said Otis Taylor. His stats can't compare to the pass heavy game after he played.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
--Hanburger played half of the decade of the 60s, and being one of the most similar in style and substance to Howley, I included him...
--Agree that Howley has never been discussed..Nor had Hanburger, nor had Wilcox, or Robinson, or many other recent Senior committee selections...This is something they started to do using almost your exact reasoning, one in which I personally believe is the wrong way to treat Senior candidates...Instead of looking for these VASTLY overlooked guys, who could never crack a top 15 during their modern candidacy, what about the guys like Kramer, Greenwood, Kuechenberg, who received support during their modern candidacy...Enough so that they got into the room but couldnt crack the top 4 or 5 that day...Becoming a modern finalist when others were not means they had more votes, more support and were at LEAST as deserving if not moreso than guys who never got the votes to get in the room...Making the top 15 and not getting in doesnt mean they had their candidacy discussed and were determined to be NOT HOF worthy...It means there were simply better candidates that year. So for me, the fact that guys like this were getting MORE VOTES by the HOF voters 20 years ago (many of them different voters than we have now) shouldn't mean they get leapfrogged by someone else simply because they never had enough support to make a top 15...
--Cowboy bias, IMO is a myth..Lots of Cowboys in the HOF...Lots of worthy players from many teams who are borderline candidates and are not in...Roger Staubach wasn't borderline...Dorsett, Lilly, these are slam dunks and therefore got it..Bob Hayes, Rayfield Wright, a bit more borderline and eventually got in...Howley is far from a slam dunk HOFer...He's a borderline guy who's career matchups up closely to guys like Wilcox, Hanburger, Robinson at the same position...He's a solid Senior candidate, but no more solid than another 20 guys...I'm hoping the committee will stop looking for fringe guys who never got in the room and select the guys who were very close for many years but didnt get in because they were up against stronger candidates in a limited selection process (used to be 4, now 5 modern maximum).
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I dont disagree that many of these voters have very flawed thinking...How else is T.O.not in already??? lol
That being said, its also flawed to believe that a defensive player being selected as the Super Bowl MVP for a losing team is enough to distinguish that player from other players with similar careers at his position. Howley SHOULD BE the next OLB to get in...But very good chance the next LB Senior selection is an MLB, probably higher probability than OLB...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
When looking at Otis Taylor's numbers - it makes Alworth and Maynard's careers that much more impressive during that same era.
Quite a few WRs with great numbers who never got in...Look no further than Billy Howton, who was the NFL all-time leader in receptions and yards when he retired...Yet he's never even been a top 15 finalist...What we can glean from things like this is that the voters(members of the media) do not put much stock in numbers...Its not really about what guys accumulate but rather how they acquired those yards...Style being given more credence than substance..Same with QBs, RBs, etc..Its nothing new and isnt going to change anytime soon, so its important to be aware of it when you see who is getting voted in and who isn't each year. They aren't being "overlooked", the numbers are simply being devalued. Same way that the voters devalued a Super Bowl MVP award for a player on a losing team..And its also something that will hurt Frank Gore's HOF case down the road as discussed recently in this thread.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The award would be insignificant if Howley was an average player who lacked career accolades. Since he was a standout player for most of his career the award should be taken into consideration by the voters as well as the fact that he was the first defensive player and the only player to win the honor from a losing team. Howley's stat line from his two Super Bowl appearances includes 3 INT's and 1 Fumble Recovery. If he was a HOF caliber player how does his performance in the NFL's biggest game not carry any additional merit with the voters? If that does not distinguish Howley from his other accomplished peers I am not sure what does.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Again, it seems to me that Super Bowl performances in losing efforts haven't helped anyone get in the HOF the same way that performances in Super Bowl WINS have...His FIVE 1st Team All-Pro selections should be the lead line in any push for his candidacy...But unfortunately the lead in tends to be "the only Super Bowl MVP on a losing team"..
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I personally believe his chances would have been better over the years had he not been given the MVP in the loss..In a Super Bowl game that has commonly called by many as the ugliest Super Bowl in history..There were ELEVEN turnovers in the game, 7 by the Colts alone yet they still won the game..lol
I think ultimately it has taken away from what should be a career that stands on its own merits as HOF worthy. Thats the only assumption I can come to as to why a guy like Howley never once even made the top 15 finalists...
Here is a list of NON-HOF PLAYERS who did in fact make the top 15 over Howley from 1979-1998 (his years as a modern finalist). These players got more support from HOF voters over that 20 year period...
Charley Conerly
Johnny Robinson
Jim Tyrer
Jerry Kramer
Lee Roy Jordan--Fellow LB from SAME TEAM..lol
L.C. Greenwood
Ken Anderson
So for me, While I think Howley is certainly worthy of HOF consideration, he's done nothing between 1998-2017 that says he should now jump the line ahead of these guys who got more support as modern candidates...This also says that his Super Bowl MVP award did nothing to help his cause as his teammate Lee Roy Jordan was a top 15 finalist (Jordan has no SBMVP award) over Howley when they were both on the same ballots...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thank you for posting the list of candidates. Tyer, Robinson, and Kramer are all well deserving candidates but I think a pretty convincing argument can be made that Howley had a better career than the other players just based on All Pro seasons.
If the voters are holding the MVP award against Howley then I don't understand the logic. He had strong performances in both Super Bowls so they can't say he was great in the one and terrible in another.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I agree the 5 All-Pro selections should be paramount. Would love to know why that alone wasn't enough to get him in the top 15, but you could also ask that of Zach Thomas, the Dolphin MLB who recently retired and has yet to make a top 25!
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/worthy-senior-candidate-2018-packer/
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Seems like it's obvious to everyone but the Senior Committee voters that Jerry Kramer's exclusion from the HOF up to this point is nothing short of criminal. He's the top player on almost every "who should be in who isn't in" list out there. Come on guys. Put this man in the HOF while he still has some years left on Earth to enjoy it!!!
Howley or Ken Anderson would be my #2 choice this year.
It sure sounds like this will be the year for Kramer...For the 2nd spot, would LOVE to see Ken Anderson get the nod..Just don't see them putting another 70s-80s QB in so soon after Stabler..Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
If Kramer does get the first spot, that knocks off Dilweg and Wistert and I don't know of any other pre-war players who have gotten any sort of push recently...Would mean Meador (perfect fit with Rams move back to LA), or one of any of the LBs..Coin flip on those, could be any of them...Jim Marshall would make some sense as well with the Super Bowl in Minnesota.
Tommy Nobis my personal favorite among the LBs...Would probably put Gradishar 2nd then Howley..Just based on my personal knowledge and eye test...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Even though personally I believe Ken Anderson was BETTER than Kenny Stabler...
Blasphemy !!!!!
May the hooves of a 1000 wild hogs in run through your vegetable garden !!!!
I hope Kramer gets one of the nods. We all can agree on him.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I believe Thomas had a HOF career as well. If you add on a Super Bowl MVP and a Championship he might have been a first year candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
If Kramer does not get inducted this year I would be surprised. He seems to have momentum.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
So adding a Super Bowl MVP ( in a loss) and a championship in another season as a LB, that's enough to change a guy from not top 25 to first ballot inductee? Thats just not how the HOF committee operates...A QB? sure...a LB? Just doesn't have that big of an effect...
Look how long it took Richard Dent, who was a pass rusher who greatly disrupted the Super Bowl Championship he got his MVP award in...Randy White's co-Super Bowl MVP did nothing to aid his candidacy, He gets in just as easily without it...Just as it hasn't helped Harvey Martin. Ray Lewis Super Bowl MVP will have zero effect on his candidacy...He would be first ballot without the MVP or the Ring...
It's just important to try and understand how the committee values certain things over others..Doesn't make it right or wrong, but understanding how they vote and where they place value for certain positions vs. others, etc. will leave you much less shocked by who is in and who is out...That being said, they still throw shade on some strange elections almost every year...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree with you on ths> @JasP24 said:
Whe it comes to the voters I completely agree and recognize that they treat positions differently. Even with a Super Bowl victory and MVP it is possible that Thomas would have to wait. This scenario,even though hypothetical, demonstrates the imperfection of the voter's logic. Thomas and Howley were both named All Pro five times compared to Dent and Martin who earned the honor once. 6/5 and 7/5 seem more impressive than 4/1 but the voters have a different view.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I think the voters, in most cases, place visual dominance above any award/accolade...If true, then it becomes easier to understand why OG, OLB and S are so very underrepresented in the HOF...And why QBs and RBs who were dominant have always tended to get in even without rings and accolades...First Team All-Pro and Pro Bowl nods, and Player of the Year awards are what most of us look to because the average person doesn't watch as much or know as much as the football writers...
At least, thats my hypothesis on how the writers view things...It's been especially bad within the Senior Committee where they feel like they have to find the most obscure, never before discussed candidate to show us how smart they are on football players..Mini-GMs so to speak...Instead of putting in the guys who have the most accolades or were very close in the voting during their modern eligibility...
I do believe the HOF selection process has gotten better over the past 20 years that I have closely monitored, but still a long way to go...For now, I would tell you not to assume a player is HOF bound simply because he has a bunch of Pro Bowls or All-Pro selections...Heck, or even All-Decade or All Half Century selections...I try and make my predictions based on their voting patterns and previously known criteria. I still never guess 100% because simply having a good presentation in the HOF meeting can create enough push for a guy you wouldnt expect would get in...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FYI, 24 August will be the Senior Finalists selection and announcement.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have always wondered how much football the writers actually watch and just how informed they are when they do watch. There is also the the issue of who they speak to as trusted sources and if their opinion can ruin a candidates chances of ever making the Hall of Fame.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Well, some are well versed and that's all they cover and have covered for years..Others, well not so much...Some were chosen almost at random, were/are just TV sportscasters who aren't well versed at all in the history of the game...They should have to take a 100 question quiz and pass it to be allowed to be a voter...The bigger the HOF becomes, and it has grown immensely over the past 10-15 years (some of that due to those of us right here in this thread collecting the set) , and at some point they will get more serious with the selection of voters..We've already seen this in some of the new voters who replaced some retiring ones...
More so then their trusted sources, it can be their own personal biases (Player "A" was mean to me in the locker room) that skew some of these writers into voting their ego rather than their brain...Its a subjective system and that's the beauty of it..But so are elections in this country and that hasn't exactly produced stellar classes of politicians to serve us the past 20 years or so either...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Drew Pearson was nominated for inclusion in the All-Time WRs set. Got a big 'ol no from me.
I voted a lil' ol no
Cliff Branch was much better.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Thought it was cool that Kenny Easley listed Branch in his speech as a should - be HOFer.
Branch could get in someday..My guess he's got at least another 10 years behind 2 or 3 better WR candidates...He is probably now the #2 Raiders player in the Senior pool behind Lester Hayes, and should stay in that position for the foreseeable future... But Stabler and Guy just went in recently as Seniors so its gonna be hard pressed for the committee to sell another TWO Raiders going in ahead of players on 20+ other teams who are equal to or more deserving who's franchise hasn't been represented recently at the HOF.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In reality Branch is not a HOF receiver and never will reach Canton.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
If you truly look at the numbers - yeah he does. 3 Super Bowl titles don't hurt either. He might not make Canton, but deserves it.
He's borderline for sure...Numbers don't mean a ton for WRs from the 70s, and he was a difference maker, deep threat of his day...I don't think his odds are great, but if they ever look for another WR from that era, Branch compares pretty favorably to the other options...Drew Pearson,Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael...
As far as who is"deserving" of HOF status, that falls back on what you believe the HOF should be...Inclusive or exclusive...I prefer exclusive...Would rather have borderline guys not in vs. putting every borderline guy in...So for me, the truly deserving candidates are the ones that will never get to the senior pool...While there are lots of overlooked/underappreciated borderline HOFers out there, .I'd be completely fine with Branch going in or staying out. Moss and T.O on the other hand, i would have a major issue any year these 2 truly deserving WRs are not voted in...
Will be interesting to see how those two are handled this year...Do they make Moss wait like they are doing to T.O.? Do they put T.O. in before Moss? Do they skip both of them this year? Only way to do that is to double up at some other position (Safety, O-Line) and/or put Urlacher in first ballot...We will certainly get Ray Lewis first ballot, and at least 2 from the group who made the cut to 10 last year (Dawkins, Lynch, Law, Boselli, Mawae)...Using logic, that says 1 Safety and 1 O-lineman at least...
With T.O and Bruce on the ballot, makes me think they put Moss in this year..One more slight to T.O. before he goes in the 2019 class...Urlacher is cut at 10 (likely) , I dont think Seymour can jump Ty Law...I dont think Jacoby can jump Boselli or Mawae and is likely headed to the Senior Pool...Coryell getting in before Moss? Urlacher? I just don;t see that.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My current hypothesis on Class of 2018 modern guys:
Ray Lewis
Randy Moss
John Lynch
Tony Boselli
5th HOFer between Dawkins, Mawae, Law, Urlacher or Coryell.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I completely agree with you on the Hall of Fame voters and the 100 question quiz, nice idea!
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
just curious...How do Gary Collins (1964 NFL Championship game MVP) career stats compare to Lynn Swann's?
Took a look and Collins compares quite well to Swann:
Collins played in 127 games (vs 116) with 331 recpts (vs 336) . 5299 yards (vs 5462). BIG difference in TDs though - Collins had 70 ! Swann 51. Of course, Swann is the exception to the rule with his Super Bowl heroics. So while the comparison is favorable for Collins against Swann if you start looking at Stallworth, Branch, Otis Taylor and Pearson as a comparison not as strong. However, IMO that 70 TD stat is pretty impressive.
Thanks for doing the legwork, PCF...Collins had 3 TD catches in the Championship game, which I believe is STILL the all time record for Title games/Super bowls. I was just a young kid, but Collins was always one of the very best of his era....
Swann is never a good example to compare anyone to stat wise...Just as pinkcatfish points out above, Swann made the HOF after a very long wait, but he made it mostly on the backs of some of what are considered the greatest catches in Super Bowl history..For him, it was style over substance...That continues to this day..Just compare Terrell Davis stats to say Corey Dillon or Fred Taylor...There is no comparison...Its not what he did, but the way he did it...
I've never even seen Gary Collins name in the top 15 Senior cutdown list..Similar to guys like Billy Howton and Del Shofner...From what I can tell, these guys put up great numbers and some even had important moments..But when it comes to inducting them into the HOF, the senior committee doesn't seem to know who they even are...Which probably means they have no chance of ever being elected. Pearson hasn't been in the conversation in years until his speech at the NFL Draft that is getting his name back in the conversation. Pearson is a Team of the Decade guy, and that is one award the voters tend to value quite heavily.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would put the wide receiver below from the 70's ahead of Branch, Pearson and anyone else not in the HOF. See if you can tell me who it is. (I know JP knows).
1968-1983
208 Games
579 Receptions
10,372 Yards
76 TDs
5 seasons in the top 10 in receiving yards (led the league twice), 4 times in the top 10 in receptions and TDs, and 5 Pro Bowls. Strictly from a statistical standpoint, he is IMO clearly the most deserving WR from the 70's yet to be enshrined in Cooperstown.
Andy you have been a promoter of #29 for years
He was sure good and would be remembered for more had he played for a better team.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Not only that jay but had he retired a few years earlier he wouldn't be lumped into that dreaded "accumulator" category which is usually the first knock on him you will hear when debating his HOF credentials.
He fits right into that group of 70s WRs and we could, although not likely or anytime soon, see 1 of them get into the HOF.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Excited for the announcement tomorrow. My best guess (based on no unique insight whatsoever) is that Jerry Kramer finally gets the call, plus Johnny Robinson.
I haven't been able to find any info. on the announcement. Do you know what time it will be? Live announcement or no?
Speaking of the Senior finalists, let's see how many you guys can name:
https://sporcle.com/games/metakoopa99/pro-football-hall-of-fame-senior-nominees
I took the quiz a few days ago, but I don't remember how many I got. Maybe high 20's.
There isn't typically a live or formal announcement. They just put out a press release once they finish the meeting. I'm hoping to get a heads up on what current HOFers they will bring in tomorrow as advisors. That will usually help you narrow down the odds as they tend to bring in HOFers who played against one or more of the guys on the final cut to 5 seniors.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Art Shell and Carl Eller advisors. If it's not Jerry Kramer in one of the slots this year he's never going in.
Also lends some credence to Jim Marshall.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Robert Brazile and wait for it......
Jerry Kramer
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Also, two of the 5 voters today were Texas reps/from Texas. Picking Brazile(solid choice by the way) over Howley pretty much means Howley won't get in within the next 20 years or so if ever.
Not sure who the other 3 were in the final 5 but usually find out down the road.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
While deserving I guess, little disappointed with Brazile. No real issue just kind of "blah". That one could be an interesting debate with voters. Of course everyone could see this was the year for Kramer.
>
Glad to see both players receive the nomination as they are worthy candidates but I hope one day Howley gets the recognition his career deserves.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I agree, Kramer had been building steam all year and it almost seemed like Rich Gosselin kept dropping hints in the Talk of Fame blog that Kramer had one spot locked up.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Actually very excited about Dr. Doom getting the nod. Classic nickname, of course. Would also join Sweetness as the second Jackson State Class of 1975 draftee in the hall. Toss in Lem Barney (Class of 1967) and Jackie Slater (Class of 1976) and that would make four Jackson State draftees in a 10-year span in the hall, with Harold Jackson (Class of 1968) hopefully making it five some day. Pretty impressive.
Fingers crossed Brazile and Kramer both get the final nod in February. Really don't like it when senior nominees don't make the final cut. Only worsens the backlog.
And well done to whoever nabbed the strong PSA 8 for only $13 on eBay within minutes of the announcement! Quick work. Also looks like some really sharp raw copies went quickly. Good luck to anyone submitting theirs. Hope to see some high grades.
Looks like Beathard got the nod for Contributor- good choice IMO. Still digesting that Jerry Jones got in. Really hope the committee slows down on picking owners.