I do think Kramer will eventually be elected...Not sure when that will be however...I would suspect that the next OL they select will be an OT like Wistert, who got very close a few years back...Duke Slater would also be an easy vote to enshrine...Tyrer would probably be tougher to get the 80% vote on election day..Not only that but I believe the committee feels they are "done" with AFL players going in..Just based off of things I have been told the past few years..Of course, the senior committee members do change, so you never know.
My early guesses for the 2 Senior selections next year? Mostly based on the positions that are "due" some consideration, as mentioned above WR and LB...
Which ones? flip a coin..lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't think Delweg has a card. He was before my time and I really don't know anything about him other than being touted here on the boards.
I had thought Shofner had less games ...like 6 years. So I checked.
He is listed as 125 games from 1957 to 1967 however he had only 10 rec his last 2 years and none in 1957 so he effectively played 8 years.
I wonder how much money has to be considered nowadays. In the old days the guys needed off season jobs.
I believe P Manning and Brady would play in wheelchairs if they could there has been some early retirements that might have cut the HOF chances. I wonder if Megatron or P Willis would have retired in thy needed money to feed their families?
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
From what I know, most of the discussion in the HOF meetings, when it comes to playing time its games played and games started...Football season lengths have changed so much over the years, number of seasons wont give fair comparisons...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@rexvos said:
I have a list of guys I would like to see in for various reason, not only because I liked them but I think they deserve it.
Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Johnny Robinson
Cliff Harris
Harvey Martin
Sam Mills
Chuck Howley
Jerry Kramer
Lester Hayes
Otis Anderson (you let Floyd Little in why not OJ?)
Anyone have a similar list of guys that may have a shot, but a very slim one?
Floyd Little was the worst HOF selection in any sport in decades. HATED it.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
My personal Top 10 from the Senior Candidate pool...
1-L.C. Greenwood
2-Tommy Nobis
3-Jerry Kramer
4-Randy Gradishar
5-Lester Hayes
6-Al Wistert
7-Ken Anderson
8-Bob Kuechenberg
9-Mac Speedie
10-Drew Pearson
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Billy Whiteshoes is on TWO all decade teams. One first team and a second team. I know Special Teams don't get the call often for the Hall but he was awesome.
White Shoes will be an interesting case once we see how the voters treat Devin Hester in a few years...Hester has the TDs to maybe actually get some consideration...Which long term maybe gets Johnson in the discussion. Only possible path IMO..
Roger Craig will move high on my list once he joins the senior pool after next year..
Howley, solid choice..He and Johnny Robinson were my final 2 cuts from my initial list trying to get it to 10...Just on the field, Nobis and Gradishar were machines..Howley was a more dynamic player, jack of all trades..But for me I tend to value the MLB/ILBs more than the outside guys...Similar to CBs vs. S or OT for OG...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
IMO Hester was better than BWSJ. Certainly as a returner.
Too bad BWSJ was hurt for a good part of his career. Forced to play in the CFK for one year also.
Kramer makes my #1. He was a major part of the Packers success.
Pearson over C Branch.....blasphemy !!!!!!
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Being a Packer fan there are a bunch of locals that want Kramer in and have complained for decades. If you research Jerry Kramer and Ken Bowman Ice Bowl you will see why he does not get all of the votes. There are some interesting reads.
Take away the Ice Bowl block for Kramer...IMO, still one of the most deserving Senior Candidates out there,
Kramer was a Modern HOF Finalist 9 times (the most of any player in the Senior candidate pool)
He won 5 World Championship titles including the first 2 Super Bowls with the Green Bay Packers.
He was selected as an All-Pro 5 times.
He was named as a guard on the 50th Anniversary NFL Team in 1970. He is the only member of this team not in the Hall of Fame.
He was named a member of the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1960s by the Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee.
He was named a starting guard in "The Ultimate Super Bowl 40 Man Roster", the 40th anniversary all-time Super Bowl team.
He was instrumental in leading the power rushing game of Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers in the 1960s. He is well know as a lead blocker of the famous "Packer Sweep".
His blocking helped running back Jim Taylor average over 5 yards a carry for 3 years. The lowest average for any leading rusher during Jerry's career was 3.5 yards.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Kramer's at the top of my list. Next year will be back to 2 Senior nominations. Maybe he'll finally get the nod. He and Howley are my 1-2.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I agree with most of the guys who've been listed here (several of whom I can't stand the sight of.)
Just to demonstrate that the pool has a lot of players who deserve (at the very least) a long look, I'm going to list 9 who no one has mentioned recently, with an addition who is too strong not to include.
In no particular order
Jerry Smith
Stanley Morgan
Harold Carmichael
John Gilliam
Wes Chandler
Nat Moore
Wesley Walker
Raymond Chester
Rich Jackson
And shagrottn77's excellent choice of Harold Jackson.
Also important to keep in mind what decade the Senior players come from, as it has seemed that recently, the 5 members of the Senior Committee goes to their annual meeting in Canton with particular decade of candidate in mind..How do we know this? They always bring in a couple of current HOFers to discuss the merits of the Senior Finalists..And the recent selections typically correlate to having played against one or both of the current HOFers they invite to the meeting...
My top 3 based on the primary decade they played in...
1920s
DUKE SLATER
JIM MCMILLIEN
VERNE LEWELLEN
1930s
LAVVIE DILWEG
OX EMERSON
BEATTIE FEATHERS
1940s
AL WISTERT
MAC SPEEDIE
RILEY MATHESON
1950s
CHARLIE CONERLY
GENE LIPSCOMB
BOBBY DILLON
1960s
JERRY KRAMER
CHUCK HOWLEY
JOHNNY ROBINSON
1970s
L.C. GREENWOOD
TOMMY NOBIS
RANDY GRADISHAR
1980s
LESTER HAYES
JIMBO COVERT
FRED SMERLAS
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Will PSA eventually get around to adding newly elected HOFers to sets such as HOF1970 to present, HOF Denver Broncos, etc, or does someone have to submit a formal request?
@sufferingbillsfan said:
Will PSA eventually get around to adding newly elected HOFers to sets such as HOF1970 to present, HOF Denver Broncos, etc, or does someone have to submit a formal request?
You'll probably have to submit a request, which should be executed pretty quickly. I just requested Tomlinson and Jason Taylor for the 1st Ballot set.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I just got a request to add Boselli, Law, F Gore and J Charles to the Modern Futures set. I remember discussing Boselli and Law, but did the two RBs come up? At least the first two are in the conversation. Any reaction to the RBs?
@Greedoguy said:
I just got a request to add Boselli, Law, F Gore and J Charles to the Modern Futures set. I remember discussing Boselli and Law, but did the two RBs come up? At least the first two are in the conversation. Any reaction to the RBs?
I voted yes to Boselli and Law and no to Gore and Charles. Gore and Charles both belong in the Hall of Very Good.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I should add that I don't view Boselli as a HOF'er either because his career was just too short, but he's gotten too much of a push over the last couple years for me to ignore him as a serious candidate for enshrinement. I try my best to have my votes rooted in reality and not solely based on my personal opinion.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I voted yes to Boselli and Law, too. Being a recent finalist, in my opinion, should get a player into the set. I voted for Jacoby, also. I can't remember on A Johnson, but I believe he was added as well. I have noticed a run on Boselli cards on eBay the past couple of weeks. Looks like going rate for those are $20 to $25 now for 10's. I'm not sure on Law. Haven't looked for one of those in a while.
@Greedoguy said:
I just got a request to add Boselli, Law, F Gore and J Charles to the Modern Futures set. I remember discussing Boselli and Law, but did the two RBs come up? At least the first two are in the conversation. Any reaction to the RBs?
I voted yes to Boselli and Law and no to Gore and Charles. Gore and Charles both belong in the Hall of Very Good.
Same here...Yes for Boselli and Law only
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JMDVM said:
I just requested Ken Anderson for the Future Seniors set
I would vote YES on Anderson
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JMDVM said:
I just requested Ken Anderson for the Future Seniors set
I would vote YES on Anderson
I voted yes on Boselli and Law, no on Gore and Charles.
Personally, I don't think any one should come up for a vote until their careers are over. That might keep some of the "very good" from getting on the list.
Next up for a vote should be Mecklenberg, Darren Woodson, Chris Hinton, Clay Mathews since they have made the cut to semi-finalist
@JMDVM said:
I just requested Ken Anderson for the Future Seniors set
I would vote YES on Anderson
I voted yes on Boselli and Law, no on Gore and Charles.
Personally, I don't think any one should come up for a vote until their careers are over. That might keep some of the "very good" from getting on the list.
Next up for a vote should be Mecklenberg, Darren Woodson, Chris Hinton, Clay Mathews since they have made the cut to semi-finalist
I would vote no on all of these...Also have been semifinalists:
Mike Kenn
Sam Mills
Steve Wiesniewski
Steve Tasker
Albert Lewis
IMO, this sets the bar a bit too low on the set. Set Rules:
"The players on this list are all widely considered to be likely or definite future Hall of Fame inductees."
Making the semifinalists is a nice step in the process, one of which that only started in 2004. So we really do not have enough information to logically make any assumption on HOF odds for those making the semifinals but not the finalists...Thus far, we only have one case of a player/coach/contributor who made the semifinals, and completed his modern era candidacy without also being a finalist at some point.
Cliff Branch...Semifinalist in 2004 and 2010, never made the top 15. He's been in the Senior Pool since 2010, and unclear if/when he ever gets the call from the hall...
Mecklenberg and Kenn can join him on the list of semifinalists who never made the top 15 when their modern eligibility expires with the Class of 2019. Hinton in 2020. Matthews in 2021. Tasker and Mills in 2022, and Albert Lewis in 2023. Five years from now we will have a much better idea on these players HOF odds if they never become a finalist.
Until then, for me, I'd like to see them get selected to the top 15 before voting to add them. If a request is made too soon, its quite possible their chances of getting enough votes to ever be added to the set will evaporate. So just my opinion, wait for these guys to make a top 15, and then request the card addition the next day.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was surprised to see Charles but I voted yes on Boselli, Law, and Gore. Gore's has quietly put together an amazing career and I find his numbers to compelling to ignore. Over 13,000 yards rushing in 12 seasons with 90 total TD's and nine thousand yard seasons (with two more over 800 yards rushing).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Jamal Lewis
A/G- 19.4
Y/G- 81
R/G-1.7
RY/G-14.3
TD/G- 0.47
Eddie George
A/G- 20.4
Y/G- 74
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.8
TD/G- 0.55
Clearly Gore will not be considered a HOFer due to his dominance, as all of these RBs were more or equally dominant over their careers and don't even get a sniff of the top 25...So the question is, what level of accumulation will he need?
The only RB with more total yards than Gore, but less than his 72.6 Yards per Game average is Jerome Bettis, who made thr HOF partly as an accumulator, but also due to significance on Super Bowl winning efforts/teams.
Gore Never a 1st Team All-Pro, no Super Bowl Titles either, so he will need to make it as a oure accumilator..My guess he will need 14000+ yards rushing at a minimum...That gets his name in the mentions..15,000 yards before I would call him a likely or definite HOFer with better than 50% odds.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No idea how are why Jamal Charles would even be requested...Descent player and all, but he's miles away from being a HOFer..
When is comes to active RBs, Adrian Peterson is the only likely to definite HOF RB..Gore would be the next closest, but as stated above, still needs to build the resume...I'd put LeSean McCoy 3rd..He's got great numbers and accolades (2 time 1st Team All-Pro)..He also needs to continue building his resume, but IMO, won't need as many total yards as Gore will need because McCoy was/is a more dominant player. Same for Adrian..He retires today, he is a HOFer with 95+ Yards per game avg.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JMDVM said:
I just requested Ken Anderson for the Future Seniors set
I would vote YES on Anderson
I voted yes on Boselli and Law, no on Gore and Charles.
Personally, I don't think any one should come up for a vote until their careers are over. That might keep some of the "very good" from getting on the list.
Next up for a vote should be Mecklenberg, Darren Woodson, Chris Hinton, Clay Mathews since they have made the cut to semi-finalist
I would vote no on all of these...Also have been semifinalists:
Mike Kenn
Sam Mills
Steve Wiesniewski
Steve Tasker
Albert Lewis
IMO, this sets the bar a bit too low on the set. Set Rules:
"The players on this list are all widely considered to be likely or definite future Hall of Fame inductees."
Making the semifinalists is a nice step in the process, one of which that only started in 2004. So we really do not have enough information to logically make any assumption on HOF odds for those making the semifinals but not the finalists...Thus far, we only have one case of a player/coach/contributor who made the semifinals, and completed his modern era candidacy without also being a finalist at some point.
Cliff Branch...Semifinalist in 2004 and 2010, never made the top 15. He's been in the Senior Pool since 2010, and unclear if/when he ever gets the call from the hall...
Mecklenberg and Kenn can join him on the list of semifinalists who never made the top 15 when their modern eligibility expires with the Class of 2019. Hinton in 2020. Matthews in 2021. Tasker and Mills in 2022, and Albert Lewis in 2023. Five years from now we will have a much better idea on these players HOF odds if they never become a finalist.
Until then, for me, I'd like to see them get selected to the top 15 before voting to add them. If a request is made too soon, its quite possible their chances of getting enough votes to ever be added to the set will evaporate. So just my opinion, wait for these guys to make a top 15, and then request the card addition the next day.
How much difference is there between being in the top 15 or top 25? Its based on the "opinion du jour" of a bunch of sports writers. I'm not saying all these stated players should be in the HOF, but the fact that are in the discussion should at least get them into the set----more so than the Jimmy Smiths and Leroy Butlers of the world.
Agree, which is why I've advocated to the removal of the Jimmy Smith's and Leroy Butlers rather than adding players of similar HOF odds.
The difference between them is making it to the top 15 actually gets them discussed, while making the 25 via mail in ballot does not get their HOF cases discussed/debated among the HOF voters.
We also have many years of study to determine the paths of finalists into or not into the HOF. We simply do not have enough evidence to suggest that making the top 25, while being snubbed from the top 15 for many years equates to HOF induction.
Semifinalist cutdown began with class of 2004. Here are the players who went from just being a semifinalist one year, to being a finalist AND HOF inductee the very next year. These are the ones who went from 25 to the final 5:
Roger Wehrli...Was a semifinalist in 2006, inducted to the HOF in 2007..BUT, Wehrli had already been a finalist in 2005. Doesnt meet the criteria
Ralph Wilson..Inducted 2009, was not even a semifinalist in 2008..BUT Wilson had already been a previous Finalist on 2 occasions (2001, 2003). Doesnt meet the criteria
Rickey Jackson...Inducted in 2010..Was not even a semifinalist in 2009, but was in 2008...This meets the criteria we are discussing, so there's one.
Ed Sabol...Inducted in 2011, was not even a semifinalist in any other previous year. So doesn't meet the criteria
So in 14 years, we've had exactly ONE example of a player who had never been a finalist, only a semifinalist, make the HOF in his first try in the "discussion" of the top 15 on election day. For me, that says the odds are VERY low that any of the current semifinalists (who have never before been a finalist) will make the HOF without first having a year in the top 15 in which they are not elected.
IMO, the time to add those players to the set will be WHEN they make the top 15 cut first...
In the meantime, try and get the players who seems to have even less odds removed from the set.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I already talked to Brian (who has taken over from Ashley Maciel) about removing players. It looks like it would be best to name one player per email.
Of all the players I suggested to vote on for the modern set, personally I might not vote for any of them either. They all had great careers----Mecklenberg,Kenn,Mathews,HInton----but are they HOF worthy?
Jamal Lewis
A/G- 19.4
Y/G- 81
R/G-1.7
RY/G-14.3
TD/G- 0.47
Eddie George
A/G- 20.4
Y/G- 74
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.8
TD/G- 0.55
Clearly Gore will not be considered a HOFer due to his dominance, as all of these RBs were more or equally dominant over their careers and don't even get a sniff of the top 25...So the question is, what level of accumulation will he need?
The only RB with more total yards than Gore, but less than his 72.6 Yards per Game average is Jerome Bettis, who made thr HOF partly as an accumulator, but also due to significance on Super Bowl winning efforts/teams.
Gore Never a 1st Team All-Pro, no Super Bowl Titles either, so he will need to make it as a oure accumilator..My guess he will need 14000+ yards rushing at a minimum...That gets his name in the mentions..15,000 yards before I would call him a likely or definite HOFer with better than 50% odds.
Career rushing yards and total touch downs for career comparisons:
Frank Gore: 13,056 Yards, 90 TD's
Fred Taylor: 11,695 Yards, 74 TD's
Corey Dillon: 11,241 Yards, 89 TD's
Ricky Watters: 10,643 Yards, 91 TD's
Jamal Lewis: 10,607 Yards, 62 TD's
Eddie George: 10,441 Yards, 78 TD's
Edgerrin James: 12,246 Yards, 91 TD's
Shaun Alexander: 9,453 Yards, 112 TD's
Priest Holmes: 8,172 Yards, 94 TD's
Tiki Barber: 10,449, Yards, 67 TD's
Steven Jackson: 11,438 Yards, 78 TD's
Warrick Dunn: 10,967 Yards 64 TD's
Thomas Jones: 10,591 Yards, 71 TD's
Adrian Peterson: 11, 747 Yards, 102 TD's
Ricky Williams: 10,009 Yards, 74 TD's
Gore has more rushing yards than any of the players who recently achieved over 10,000 yards in their careers and is behind only Alexander, Peterson, Holmes, Watters, and James in touchdowns (with a chance to pass or tie Holmes, Watters, and James).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Gore certainly has accumulated nice numbers...Will be interesting to see where he ends his career..As I stated above, for an accumulator to make the HOF, its all a question of how big do the numbers need to be to overcome his lack of dominance in his per-game numbers... We don't know the answer as he has a unique case at his current levels...
Personally I think he's going to need 15k yards, but 14k might also be enough..If he retires tomorrow does he get in the HOF? I'd think his odds are comparable to some of the others listed, which is maybe 20%...Hard to say what his numbers will look like 5-6-7 years from now whenever he becomes eligible...I think a good comparison for Gore in his accumulator status is Anquan Boldin...How many yards will he need to accumulate to be considered a likely HOFer? I dont know if even 15k will do it for a WR, just based on how Bruce and Owens have been treated by the voters..Whereas someone like say Larry Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson or even Steve Smith wont need 15k for election...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
QB probably the easiest position to define accumulators..46k passing yards not even enough as a QB accumulator..This is why Eki Manning is going to be a very interesting case, as he probably retires with over 50 and close to 60k yards...IMO, he may need 60k..
Vinny Testaverde 46,233 yards
Drew Bledsoe 44,611 yards
Dave Krieg 38,147 yards
vs,
Steve Young 33,124
Troy Aikman 32,942
Kurt Warner 32,344
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jamal Lewis
A/G- 19.4
Y/G- 81
R/G-1.7
RY/G-14.3
TD/G- 0.47
Eddie George
A/G- 20.4
Y/G- 74
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.8
TD/G- 0.55
Clearly Gore will not be considered a HOFer due to his dominance, as all of these RBs were more or equally dominant over their careers and don't even get a sniff of the top 25...So the question is, what level of accumulation will he need?
The only RB with more total yards than Gore, but less than his 72.6 Yards per Game average is Jerome Bettis, who made thr HOF partly as an accumulator, but also due to significance on Super Bowl winning efforts/teams.
Gore Never a 1st Team All-Pro, no Super Bowl Titles either, so he will need to make it as a oure accumilator..My guess he will need 14000+ yards rushing at a minimum...That gets his name in the mentions..15,000 yards before I would call him a likely or definite HOFer with better than 50% odds.
Career rushing yards and total touch downs for career comparisons:
Frank Gore: 13,056, 90 TD's
Fred Taylor: 11,695 Yards, 74 TD's
Corey Dillon: 11,241 Yards, 89 TD's
Ricky Watters: 10,643 Yards, 91 TD's
Jamal Lewis: 10,607 Yards, 62 TD's
Eddie George: 10,441 Yards, 78 TD's
Edgerrin James: 12,246 Yards, 91 TD's
Shaun Alexander: 9,453 Yards, 112 TD's
Priest Holmes: 8,172 Yards, 94 TD's
Tiki Barber: 10,449, Yards, 67 TD's
Steven Jackson: 11,438 Yards, 78 TD's
Warrick Dunn: 10,967 Yards 64 TD's
Thomas Jones: 10,591 Yards, 71 TD's
Adrian Peterson: 11, 747 Yards, 102 TD's
Ricky Williams: 10,009 Yards, 74 TD's
Gore has more rushing yards than any of the players who recently achieved over 10,000 yards in their careers and is behind only Alexander, Peterson, Holmes, Watters, and James in touchdowns (with a chance to pass or tie Holmes, Watters, and James).
What about OJ Anderson? He had over 10K yards plus a SB MVP.
Jamal Lewis
A/G- 19.4
Y/G- 81
R/G-1.7
RY/G-14.3
TD/G- 0.47
Eddie George
A/G- 20.4
Y/G- 74
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.8
TD/G- 0.55
Clearly Gore will not be considered a HOFer due to his dominance, as all of these RBs were more or equally dominant over their careers and don't even get a sniff of the top 25...So the question is, what level of accumulation will he need?
The only RB with more total yards than Gore, but less than his 72.6 Yards per Game average is Jerome Bettis, who made thr HOF partly as an accumulator, but also due to significance on Super Bowl winning efforts/teams.
Gore Never a 1st Team All-Pro, no Super Bowl Titles either, so he will need to make it as a oure accumilator..My guess he will need 14000+ yards rushing at a minimum...That gets his name in the mentions..15,000 yards before I would call him a likely or definite HOFer with better than 50% odds.
Career rushing yards and total touch downs for career comparisons:
Frank Gore: 13,056, 90 TD's
Fred Taylor: 11,695 Yards, 74 TD's
Corey Dillon: 11,241 Yards, 89 TD's
Ricky Watters: 10,643 Yards, 91 TD's
Jamal Lewis: 10,607 Yards, 62 TD's
Eddie George: 10,441 Yards, 78 TD's
Edgerrin James: 12,246 Yards, 91 TD's
Shaun Alexander: 9,453 Yards, 112 TD's
Priest Holmes: 8,172 Yards, 94 TD's
Tiki Barber: 10,449, Yards, 67 TD's
Steven Jackson: 11,438 Yards, 78 TD's
Warrick Dunn: 10,967 Yards 64 TD's
Thomas Jones: 10,591 Yards, 71 TD's
Adrian Peterson: 11, 747 Yards, 102 TD's
Ricky Williams: 10,009 Yards, 74 TD's
Gore has more rushing yards than any of the players who recently achieved over 10,000 yards in their careers and is behind only Alexander, Peterson, Holmes, Watters, and James in touchdowns (with a chance to pass or tie Holmes, Watters, and James).
What about OJ Anderson? He had over 10K yards plus a SB MVP.
I purposely omitted him from the list since he played the majority of his career in the 1980's and Anderson deserves to be compared to the backs of his era where I believe he appears too be even more dominant (I believe he was 8th place when he retired). I think he was a HOF caliber running back though.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
I know you are talking about accumilative passing yards.....but it seems like apples to oranges to me.
I have to agree, passing yards are a pretty meaningless stat since they can be compiled in losses when teams abandon the run to move the ball more quickly.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I have to agree, passing yards are a pretty meaningless stat since they can be compiled in losses when teams abandon the run to move the ball more quickly.
Agreed...And rushing yards, as we have seen via the HOF voting over the past few years are equally as meaningless to HOF induction...
Floyd Little 6,395 yards HOFer
Fred Taylor 11,695 yards, wasn't even among the 100+ nominees
Terrell Davis 7,607 yards, HOFer
Ottis Anderson 10,273 Never even made the Top 25 Semifinalists and has now gone to the Senior Pool
BOTH RBs are 2x Super Bowl Champions and Super Bowl MVP
So, just as stated above using the Passing yardage example, total rushing yards are a pretty meaningless statistic, particularly when the yards were accumulated over a large sample size of years and games (accumulator).
Again, guys can and do make the HOF for various reasons...For a guy who wasn't particularly dominant like Gore, and he certainly was not if you compare his per game numbers as I did above...He's going to need to accumulate an amount of total yardage that overcomes that.
He did make 5 Pro Bowls, but 3 of them are "pre-Super Bowl" Pro Bowls, which I can only guess will be given even LESS importance than the Pro Bowls that were played when Super Bowl teams could compete (far more players get "Pro Bowl" designation now)...Was never the best or considered top 2 RB in any given season. Was a top 4 (2nd Team All-Pro) just once in his career. Played in a Super Bowl, but lost...
Lets hope he gets 15k before he retires, and lets hope 15k will be enough accumulation for a player who wasnt clearly better than many other RBs of his era.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Frank Gore's career started in 2005..Since 2005, he has received a GRAND TOTAL of 14 All-Pro votes at RB TOTAL..All-Pro votes measure DOMINANCE at a position in any given single season.
Here are the RBs with more All-Pro votes than Gore during his career (2005-2016):
Adrian Peterson, Minnesota, 184
LaDainian Tomlinson, S.D., 103
Jamaal Charles, Kansas City, 87
LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 78
Le'Veon Bell, Pittsburgh, 62
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 51
Arian Foster, Houston, 51
Chris Johnson, Tennesee, 50
Shaun Alexander, Seattle, 49
DeMarco Murray, Dallas, 48
Tiki Barber, NY Giants, 47
Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas, 47
Michael Turner, Atl, 40
Doug Martin, Tampa Bay, 37
Ray Rice, Baltimore, 36
Brian Westbrook, Philadelphia 33
Marshawn Lynch, Seattle, 32
Larry Johnson, Kansas City, 26
Steven Jackson, St. Louis, 17
Frank Gore-----14-------------------------------------
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jamal Lewis
A/G- 19.4
Y/G- 81
R/G-1.7
RY/G-14.3
TD/G- 0.47
Eddie George
A/G- 20.4
Y/G- 74
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.8
TD/G- 0.55
Clearly Gore will not be considered a HOFer due to his dominance, as all of these RBs were more or equally dominant over their careers and don't even get a sniff of the top 25...So the question is, what level of accumulation will he need?
The only RB with more total yards than Gore, but less than his 72.6 Yards per Game average is Jerome Bettis, who made thr HOF partly as an accumulator, but also due to significance on Super Bowl winning efforts/teams.
Gore Never a 1st Team All-Pro, no Super Bowl Titles either, so he will need to make it as a oure accumilator..My guess he will need 14000+ yards rushing at a minimum...That gets his name in the mentions..15,000 yards before I would call him a likely or definite HOFer with better than 50% odds.
Career rushing yards and total touch downs for career comparisons:
Frank Gore: 13,056, 90 TD's
Fred Taylor: 11,695 Yards, 74 TD's
Corey Dillon: 11,241 Yards, 89 TD's
Ricky Watters: 10,643 Yards, 91 TD's
Jamal Lewis: 10,607 Yards, 62 TD's
Eddie George: 10,441 Yards, 78 TD's
Edgerrin James: 12,246 Yards, 91 TD's
Shaun Alexander: 9,453 Yards, 112 TD's
Priest Holmes: 8,172 Yards, 94 TD's
Tiki Barber: 10,449, Yards, 67 TD's
Steven Jackson: 11,438 Yards, 78 TD's
Warrick Dunn: 10,967 Yards 64 TD's
Thomas Jones: 10,591 Yards, 71 TD's
Adrian Peterson: 11, 747 Yards, 102 TD's
Ricky Williams: 10,009 Yards, 74 TD's
Gore has more rushing yards than any of the players who recently achieved over 10,000 yards in their careers and is behind only Alexander, Peterson, Holmes, Watters, and James in touchdowns (with a chance to pass or tie Holmes, Watters, and James).
What about OJ Anderson? He had over 10K yards plus a SB MVP.
I purposely omitted him from the list since he played the majority of his career in the 1980's and Anderson deserves to be compared to the backs of his era where I believe he appears too be even more dominant (I believe he was 8th place when he retired). I think he was a HOF caliber running back though.
I have to agree, passing yards are a pretty meaningless stat since they can be compiled in losses when teams abandon the run to move the ball more quickly.
Agreed...And rushing yards, as we have seen via the HOF voting over the past few years are equally as meaningless to HOF induction...
Floyd Little 6,395 yards HOFer
Fred Taylor 11,695 yards, wasn't even among the 100+ nominees
Terrell Davis 7,607 yards, HOFer
Ottis Anderson 10,273 Never even made the Top 25 Semifinalists and has now gone to the Senior Pool
BOTH RBs are 2x Super Bowl Champions and Super Bowl MVP
So, just as stated above using the Passing yardage example, total rushing yards are a pretty meaningless statistic, particularly when the yards were accumulated over a large sample size of years and games (accumulator).
Again, guys can and do make the HOF for various reasons...For a guy who wasn't particularly dominant like Gore, and he certainly was not if you compare his per game numbers as I did above...He's going to need to accumulate an amount of total yardage that overcomes that.
He did make 5 Pro Bowls, but 3 of them are "pre-Super Bowl" Pro Bowls, which I can only guess will be given even LESS importance than the Pro Bowls that were played when Super Bowl teams could compete (far more players get "Pro Bowl" designation now)...Was never the best or considered top 2 RB in any given season. Was a top 4 (2nd Team All-Pro) just once in his career. Played in a Super Bowl, but lost...
Lets hope he gets 15k before he retires, and lets hope 15k will be enough accumulation for a player who wasnt clearly better than many other RBs of his era.
I think it is a shame that the Hall of Fame voters seem to be ignoring the rushing totals of many of the talented backs who emerged from the 1990's and early 2000's. The draft classes from the 1990's produced a lot of quality backs and this appears to have lessened their accomplishments as quite a few reached the 10,000 Yard mark. The draft classes post 2000 have not produced as many 10,000 Yard rushers, which should make running backs who achieve that milestone even more impressive as the game transition to more two back systems and passing attacks.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Thats a great point...Its going to be interesting to see how opinions of RBs change along with opinions of WRs...We've already seen how WRs who retired with monster numbers aren't even getting considered now...Will the lessening of the RB position be handled similarly?
I think whats important to note, particularly with how the voters make determinations, is that there are specifically different categories of HOFers...It was spelled out this year perhaps better than any other...Dominant players like Terrell Davis, Easley, Tony Boselli...All with less than 100 games, but who were considered dominant at their positions during their short(er) careers are now not only getting HOF consideration, but are being elected ahead of less dominant players who either accumulated more games or bigger numbers over extended careers...
So the question moving ahead for me becomes this...For borderline HOF guys, is it going to now hurt a players odds to have an extended career? Joe Jacoby is a great example...
If Joe Jacoby had retired after the 1988 season...He would have had 110 games played over 8 seasons...4 Pro Bowls and 2 First Team All-Pro selections, along with 2 Super Bowl titles...Would he be viewed as more dominant with this resume? Rather than having the same resume, add 1 Super Bowl, along with 60 more games, many of which he was not playing at the same high standard as his early career...
If Tony Boselli had continued his career for another 5-6 years, but not played as dominantly as he did pre-injury..Would he still be viewed in the same light that enabled him to jump Jacoby this year and make the cut to top 10? Going to be something that bears watching...
Last note on O.J. Anderson...While he was a solid back when he played for the Giants, he was not considered a dominant player at that point in his career...I think if the voters focused more on his time playing for the Cardinals, and watched a little more of that film, he would get more HOF support. He was well on his way to the HOF after his first 5-6 years or so...But I think the voters mostly remember Super Bowl MVP Anderson, who was a shell of the RB he had been early is his career and unfortunately thats how he is being remembered...The Cardinals OJ Anderson was HOF quality player.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Thats a great point...Its going to be interesting to see how opinions of RBs change along with opinions of WRs...We've already seen how WRs who retired with monster numbers aren't even getting considered now...Will the lessening of the RB position be handled similarly?
I think whats important to note, particularly with how the voters make determinations, is that there are specifically different categories of HOFers...It was spelled out this year perhaps better than any other...Dominant players like Terrell Davis, Easley, Tony Boselli...All with less than 100 games, but who were considered dominant at their positions during their short(er) careers are now not only getting HOF consideration, but are being elected ahead of less dominant players who either accumulated more games or bigger numbers over extended careers...
So the question moving ahead for me becomes this...For borderline HOF guys, is it going to now hurt a players odds to have an extended career? Joe Jacoby is a great example...
If Joe Jacoby had retired after the 1988 season...He would have had 110 games played over 8 seasons...4 Pro Bowls and 2 First Team All-Pro selections, along with 2 Super Bowl titles...Would he be viewed as more dominant with this resume? Rather than having the same resume, add 1 Super Bowl, along with 60 more games, many of which he was not playing at the same high standard as his early career...
If Tony Boselli had continued his career for another 5-6 years, but not played as dominantly as he did pre-injury..Would he still be viewed in the same light that enabled him to jump Jacoby this year and make the cut to top 10? Going to be something that bears watching...
Last note on O.J. Anderson...While he was a solid back when he played for the Giants, he was not considered a dominant player at that point in his career...I think if the voters focused more on his time playing for the Cardinals, and watched a little more of that film, he would get more HOF support. He was well on his way to the HOF after his first 5-6 years or so...But I think the voters mostly remember Super Bowl MVP Anderson, who was a shell of the RB he had been early is his career and unfortunately thats how he is being remembered...The Cardinals OJ Anderson was HOF quality player.
Agree again on OJ.Anderson. Parcells used to kid him that he went from a gazelle to an old man plow horse. But the fact he could adapt his style and still rush for a 1000 yards while stepping in for an inured Joe Morris and lead the way to a SB should be considered a good thing. How Floyd Little gets inducted an OJ gets no love is beyond me. He was a dominant back while with the Cardinals.
Wondering where everyone ranks the HOF eligible or soon to be eligible WRs...How many we plausibly believe will get in from the current Future HOF rookie cards...Here is how I rank their HOF odds..
1- Randy Moss
2- Terrell Owens
3- Larry Fitzgerald
4- Isaac Bruce
5- Calvin Johnson
6- Andre Johnson
7- Hines Ward
8- Torry Holt
9- Reggie Wayne
If Holt and Wayne are elected, it will make the years 1999 and 2004 the most HOF WRs playing in the league in NFL history (11 HOFers in both years)...The previous highs were from 1965-1967 with 9 HOF WRs playing in either the NFL or AFL those years...I guess its possible due to the proliferation of the passing game now, but Holt and Wayne will have a tough time..And anyone else ranked below these guys (like Steve Smith, Jimmy Smith, Anquan Boldin) who played in the league during the 1999 or 2004 seasons almost certainly have little to no chance at being elected as 12th or 13th HOF WRs from those seasons...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
I do think Kramer will eventually be elected...Not sure when that will be however...I would suspect that the next OL they select will be an OT like Wistert, who got very close a few years back...Duke Slater would also be an easy vote to enshrine...Tyrer would probably be tougher to get the 80% vote on election day..Not only that but I believe the committee feels they are "done" with AFL players going in..Just based off of things I have been told the past few years..Of course, the senior committee members do change, so you never know.
My early guesses for the 2 Senior selections next year? Mostly based on the positions that are "due" some consideration, as mentioned above WR and LB...
Which ones? flip a coin..lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't think Delweg has a card. He was before my time and I really don't know anything about him other than being touted here on the boards.
I had thought Shofner had less games ...like 6 years. So I checked.
He is listed as 125 games from 1957 to 1967 however he had only 10 rec his last 2 years and none in 1957 so he effectively played 8 years.
I wonder how much money has to be considered nowadays. In the old days the guys needed off season jobs.
I believe P Manning and Brady would play in wheelchairs if they could there has been some early retirements that might have cut the HOF chances. I wonder if Megatron or P Willis would have retired in thy needed money to feed their families?
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
From what I know, most of the discussion in the HOF meetings, when it comes to playing time its games played and games started...Football season lengths have changed so much over the years, number of seasons wont give fair comparisons...
No card for Dilweg...Good read on his HOF case..
http://www.footballnation.net/content/old-school-the-hall-fame-case-for-packers-great/7801/
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have a list of guys I would like to see in for various reason, not only because I liked them but I think they deserve it.
Anyone have a similar list of guys that may have a shot, but a very slim one?
Floyd Little was the worst HOF selection in any sport in decades. HATED it.
They also let in Tommy McDonald and then that clown brought his jam box to the induction. He gets my vote as worst ever
My personal Top 10 from the Senior Candidate pool...
1-L.C. Greenwood
2-Tommy Nobis
3-Jerry Kramer
4-Randy Gradishar
5-Lester Hayes
6-Al Wistert
7-Ken Anderson
8-Bob Kuechenberg
9-Mac Speedie
10-Drew Pearson
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Yes Floyd Little was a terrible choice. So was Fred Dean. Anyhow here are my top 10.
I had Nobis too but replaced him with Howley. Greenwood is another great add
Billy Whiteshoes is on TWO all decade teams. One first team and a second team. I know Special Teams don't get the call often for the Hall but he was awesome.
White Shoes will be an interesting case once we see how the voters treat Devin Hester in a few years...Hester has the TDs to maybe actually get some consideration...Which long term maybe gets Johnson in the discussion. Only possible path IMO..
Roger Craig will move high on my list once he joins the senior pool after next year..
Howley, solid choice..He and Johnny Robinson were my final 2 cuts from my initial list trying to get it to 10...Just on the field, Nobis and Gradishar were machines..Howley was a more dynamic player, jack of all trades..But for me I tend to value the MLB/ILBs more than the outside guys...Similar to CBs vs. S or OT for OG...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
IMO Hester was better than BWSJ. Certainly as a returner.
Too bad BWSJ was hurt for a good part of his career. Forced to play in the CFK for one year also.
Kramer makes my #1. He was a major part of the Packers success.
Pearson over C Branch.....blasphemy !!!!!!
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Being a Packer fan there are a bunch of locals that want Kramer in and have complained for decades. If you research Jerry Kramer and Ken Bowman Ice Bowl you will see why he does not get all of the votes. There are some interesting reads.
Take away the Ice Bowl block for Kramer...IMO, still one of the most deserving Senior Candidates out there,
Kramer was a Modern HOF Finalist 9 times (the most of any player in the Senior candidate pool)
He won 5 World Championship titles including the first 2 Super Bowls with the Green Bay Packers.
He was selected as an All-Pro 5 times.
He was named as a guard on the 50th Anniversary NFL Team in 1970. He is the only member of this team not in the Hall of Fame.
He was named a member of the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1960s by the Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee.
He was named a starting guard in "The Ultimate Super Bowl 40 Man Roster", the 40th anniversary all-time Super Bowl team.
He was instrumental in leading the power rushing game of Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers in the 1960s. He is well know as a lead blocker of the famous "Packer Sweep".
His blocking helped running back Jim Taylor average over 5 yards a carry for 3 years. The lowest average for any leading rusher during Jerry's career was 3.5 yards.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Kramer's at the top of my list. Next year will be back to 2 Senior nominations. Maybe he'll finally get the nod. He and Howley are my 1-2.
I agree with most of the guys who've been listed here (several of whom I can't stand the sight of.)
Just to demonstrate that the pool has a lot of players who deserve (at the very least) a long look, I'm going to list 9 who no one has mentioned recently, with an addition who is too strong not to include.
In no particular order
Jerry Smith
Stanley Morgan
Harold Carmichael
John Gilliam
Wes Chandler
Nat Moore
Wesley Walker
Raymond Chester
Rich Jackson
And shagrottn77's excellent choice of Harold Jackson.
Also important to keep in mind what decade the Senior players come from, as it has seemed that recently, the 5 members of the Senior Committee goes to their annual meeting in Canton with particular decade of candidate in mind..How do we know this? They always bring in a couple of current HOFers to discuss the merits of the Senior Finalists..And the recent selections typically correlate to having played against one or both of the current HOFers they invite to the meeting...
My top 3 based on the primary decade they played in...
1920s
DUKE SLATER
JIM MCMILLIEN
VERNE LEWELLEN
1930s
LAVVIE DILWEG
OX EMERSON
BEATTIE FEATHERS
1940s
AL WISTERT
MAC SPEEDIE
RILEY MATHESON
1950s
CHARLIE CONERLY
GENE LIPSCOMB
BOBBY DILLON
1960s
JERRY KRAMER
CHUCK HOWLEY
JOHNNY ROBINSON
1970s
L.C. GREENWOOD
TOMMY NOBIS
RANDY GRADISHAR
1980s
LESTER HAYES
JIMBO COVERT
FRED SMERLAS
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Will PSA eventually get around to adding newly elected HOFers to sets such as HOF1970 to present, HOF Denver Broncos, etc, or does someone have to submit a formal request?
You'll probably have to submit a request, which should be executed pretty quickly. I just requested Tomlinson and Jason Taylor for the 1st Ballot set.
I just requested Ken Anderson for the Future Seniors set
I just got a request to add Boselli, Law, F Gore and J Charles to the Modern Futures set. I remember discussing Boselli and Law, but did the two RBs come up? At least the first two are in the conversation. Any reaction to the RBs?
I voted yes to Boselli and Law and no to Gore and Charles. Gore and Charles both belong in the Hall of Very Good.
I should add that I don't view Boselli as a HOF'er either because his career was just too short, but he's gotten too much of a push over the last couple years for me to ignore him as a serious candidate for enshrinement. I try my best to have my votes rooted in reality and not solely based on my personal opinion.
I voted yes to Boselli and Law, too. Being a recent finalist, in my opinion, should get a player into the set. I voted for Jacoby, also. I can't remember on A Johnson, but I believe he was added as well. I have noticed a run on Boselli cards on eBay the past couple of weeks. Looks like going rate for those are $20 to $25 now for 10's. I'm not sure on Law. Haven't looked for one of those in a while.
Same here...Yes for Boselli and Law only
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would vote YES on Anderson
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I voted yes on Boselli and Law, no on Gore and Charles.
Personally, I don't think any one should come up for a vote until their careers are over. That might keep some of the "very good" from getting on the list.
Next up for a vote should be Mecklenberg, Darren Woodson, Chris Hinton, Clay Mathews since they have made the cut to semi-finalist
I would vote no on all of these...Also have been semifinalists:
Mike Kenn
Sam Mills
Steve Wiesniewski
Steve Tasker
Albert Lewis
IMO, this sets the bar a bit too low on the set. Set Rules:
"The players on this list are all widely considered to be likely or definite future Hall of Fame inductees."
Making the semifinalists is a nice step in the process, one of which that only started in 2004. So we really do not have enough information to logically make any assumption on HOF odds for those making the semifinals but not the finalists...Thus far, we only have one case of a player/coach/contributor who made the semifinals, and completed his modern era candidacy without also being a finalist at some point.
Cliff Branch...Semifinalist in 2004 and 2010, never made the top 15. He's been in the Senior Pool since 2010, and unclear if/when he ever gets the call from the hall...
Mecklenberg and Kenn can join him on the list of semifinalists who never made the top 15 when their modern eligibility expires with the Class of 2019. Hinton in 2020. Matthews in 2021. Tasker and Mills in 2022, and Albert Lewis in 2023. Five years from now we will have a much better idea on these players HOF odds if they never become a finalist.
Until then, for me, I'd like to see them get selected to the top 15 before voting to add them. If a request is made too soon, its quite possible their chances of getting enough votes to ever be added to the set will evaporate. So just my opinion, wait for these guys to make a top 15, and then request the card addition the next day.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was surprised to see Charles but I voted yes on Boselli, Law, and Gore. Gore's has quietly put together an amazing career and I find his numbers to compelling to ignore. Over 13,000 yards rushing in 12 seasons with 90 total TD's and nine thousand yard seasons (with two more over 800 yards rushing).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I dont think I got the poll. But I would have to agree on Gore. If hes not yet worthy, hes very close.
I think Gore is fairly close..He's going to have to make it as an accumulator though..His per game averages:
Rushing Attempts per Game- 16.5
Rushing Yards per Game- 72.6
Receptions per Game- 2.3
Reception Yards per Game- 19
TD's per Game 0.5
Compare to some other NON-HOF RBs not on the set, and not even being considered while HOF eligible..
Fred Taylor...
A/G- 16.6
Y/G- 76.4
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.6
TD/G- 0.48
Corey Dillon...
A/G- 17.5
Y/G- 74.9
R/G-1.6
RY/G-12.8
TD/G- 0.59
Ricky Watters
A/G- 18.2
Y/G- 73.9
R/G-3.2
RY/G-29.5
TD/G- 0.63
Jamal Lewis
A/G- 19.4
Y/G- 81
R/G-1.7
RY/G-14.3
TD/G- 0.47
Eddie George
A/G- 20.4
Y/G- 74
R/G-1.9
RY/G-15.8
TD/G- 0.55
Clearly Gore will not be considered a HOFer due to his dominance, as all of these RBs were more or equally dominant over their careers and don't even get a sniff of the top 25...So the question is, what level of accumulation will he need?
The only RB with more total yards than Gore, but less than his 72.6 Yards per Game average is Jerome Bettis, who made thr HOF partly as an accumulator, but also due to significance on Super Bowl winning efforts/teams.
Gore Never a 1st Team All-Pro, no Super Bowl Titles either, so he will need to make it as a oure accumilator..My guess he will need 14000+ yards rushing at a minimum...That gets his name in the mentions..15,000 yards before I would call him a likely or definite HOFer with better than 50% odds.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No idea how are why Jamal Charles would even be requested...Descent player and all, but he's miles away from being a HOFer..
When is comes to active RBs, Adrian Peterson is the only likely to definite HOF RB..Gore would be the next closest, but as stated above, still needs to build the resume...I'd put LeSean McCoy 3rd..He's got great numbers and accolades (2 time 1st Team All-Pro)..He also needs to continue building his resume, but IMO, won't need as many total yards as Gore will need because McCoy was/is a more dominant player. Same for Adrian..He retires today, he is a HOFer with 95+ Yards per game avg.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How much difference is there between being in the top 15 or top 25? Its based on the "opinion du jour" of a bunch of sports writers. I'm not saying all these stated players should be in the HOF, but the fact that are in the discussion should at least get them into the set----more so than the Jimmy Smiths and Leroy Butlers of the world.
Agree, which is why I've advocated to the removal of the Jimmy Smith's and Leroy Butlers rather than adding players of similar HOF odds.
The difference between them is making it to the top 15 actually gets them discussed, while making the 25 via mail in ballot does not get their HOF cases discussed/debated among the HOF voters.
We also have many years of study to determine the paths of finalists into or not into the HOF. We simply do not have enough evidence to suggest that making the top 25, while being snubbed from the top 15 for many years equates to HOF induction.
Semifinalist cutdown began with class of 2004. Here are the players who went from just being a semifinalist one year, to being a finalist AND HOF inductee the very next year. These are the ones who went from 25 to the final 5:
Roger Wehrli...Was a semifinalist in 2006, inducted to the HOF in 2007..BUT, Wehrli had already been a finalist in 2005. Doesnt meet the criteria
Ralph Wilson..Inducted 2009, was not even a semifinalist in 2008..BUT Wilson had already been a previous Finalist on 2 occasions (2001, 2003). Doesnt meet the criteria
Rickey Jackson...Inducted in 2010..Was not even a semifinalist in 2009, but was in 2008...This meets the criteria we are discussing, so there's one.
Ed Sabol...Inducted in 2011, was not even a semifinalist in any other previous year. So doesn't meet the criteria
So in 14 years, we've had exactly ONE example of a player who had never been a finalist, only a semifinalist, make the HOF in his first try in the "discussion" of the top 15 on election day. For me, that says the odds are VERY low that any of the current semifinalists (who have never before been a finalist) will make the HOF without first having a year in the top 15 in which they are not elected.
IMO, the time to add those players to the set will be WHEN they make the top 15 cut first...
In the meantime, try and get the players who seems to have even less odds removed from the set.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I already talked to Brian (who has taken over from Ashley Maciel) about removing players. It looks like it would be best to name one player per email.
Of all the players I suggested to vote on for the modern set, personally I might not vote for any of them either. They all had great careers----Mecklenberg,Kenn,Mathews,HInton----but are they HOF worthy?
Career rushing yards and total touch downs for career comparisons:
Frank Gore: 13,056 Yards, 90 TD's
Fred Taylor: 11,695 Yards, 74 TD's
Corey Dillon: 11,241 Yards, 89 TD's
Ricky Watters: 10,643 Yards, 91 TD's
Jamal Lewis: 10,607 Yards, 62 TD's
Eddie George: 10,441 Yards, 78 TD's
Edgerrin James: 12,246 Yards, 91 TD's
Shaun Alexander: 9,453 Yards, 112 TD's
Priest Holmes: 8,172 Yards, 94 TD's
Tiki Barber: 10,449, Yards, 67 TD's
Steven Jackson: 11,438 Yards, 78 TD's
Warrick Dunn: 10,967 Yards 64 TD's
Thomas Jones: 10,591 Yards, 71 TD's
Adrian Peterson: 11, 747 Yards, 102 TD's
Ricky Williams: 10,009 Yards, 74 TD's
Gore has more rushing yards than any of the players who recently achieved over 10,000 yards in their careers and is behind only Alexander, Peterson, Holmes, Watters, and James in touchdowns (with a chance to pass or tie Holmes, Watters, and James).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Gore certainly has accumulated nice numbers...Will be interesting to see where he ends his career..As I stated above, for an accumulator to make the HOF, its all a question of how big do the numbers need to be to overcome his lack of dominance in his per-game numbers... We don't know the answer as he has a unique case at his current levels...
Personally I think he's going to need 15k yards, but 14k might also be enough..If he retires tomorrow does he get in the HOF? I'd think his odds are comparable to some of the others listed, which is maybe 20%...Hard to say what his numbers will look like 5-6-7 years from now whenever he becomes eligible...I think a good comparison for Gore in his accumulator status is Anquan Boldin...How many yards will he need to accumulate to be considered a likely HOFer? I dont know if even 15k will do it for a WR, just based on how Bruce and Owens have been treated by the voters..Whereas someone like say Larry Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson or even Steve Smith wont need 15k for election...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
QB probably the easiest position to define accumulators..46k passing yards not even enough as a QB accumulator..This is why Eki Manning is going to be a very interesting case, as he probably retires with over 50 and close to 60k yards...IMO, he may need 60k..
Vinny Testaverde 46,233 yards
Drew Bledsoe 44,611 yards
Dave Krieg 38,147 yards
vs,
Steve Young 33,124
Troy Aikman 32,942
Kurt Warner 32,344
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Maybe.. Aikman, Warner, And Young have SB wins. The top 3 you mentioned do not ...to my knowledge
I know you are talking about accumilative passing yards.....but it seems like apples to oranges to me.
What about OJ Anderson? He had over 10K yards plus a SB MVP.
I purposely omitted him from the list since he played the majority of his career in the 1980's and Anderson deserves to be compared to the backs of his era where I believe he appears too be even more dominant (I believe he was 8th place when he retired). I think he was a HOF caliber running back though.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I have to agree, passing yards are a pretty meaningless stat since they can be compiled in losses when teams abandon the run to move the ball more quickly.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Agreed...And rushing yards, as we have seen via the HOF voting over the past few years are equally as meaningless to HOF induction...
Floyd Little 6,395 yards HOFer
Fred Taylor 11,695 yards, wasn't even among the 100+ nominees
Terrell Davis 7,607 yards, HOFer
Ottis Anderson 10,273 Never even made the Top 25 Semifinalists and has now gone to the Senior Pool
BOTH RBs are 2x Super Bowl Champions and Super Bowl MVP
So, just as stated above using the Passing yardage example, total rushing yards are a pretty meaningless statistic, particularly when the yards were accumulated over a large sample size of years and games (accumulator).
Again, guys can and do make the HOF for various reasons...For a guy who wasn't particularly dominant like Gore, and he certainly was not if you compare his per game numbers as I did above...He's going to need to accumulate an amount of total yardage that overcomes that.
He did make 5 Pro Bowls, but 3 of them are "pre-Super Bowl" Pro Bowls, which I can only guess will be given even LESS importance than the Pro Bowls that were played when Super Bowl teams could compete (far more players get "Pro Bowl" designation now)...Was never the best or considered top 2 RB in any given season. Was a top 4 (2nd Team All-Pro) just once in his career. Played in a Super Bowl, but lost...
Lets hope he gets 15k before he retires, and lets hope 15k will be enough accumulation for a player who wasnt clearly better than many other RBs of his era.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Frank Gore's career started in 2005..Since 2005, he has received a GRAND TOTAL of 14 All-Pro votes at RB TOTAL..All-Pro votes measure DOMINANCE at a position in any given single season.
Here are the RBs with more All-Pro votes than Gore during his career (2005-2016):
Adrian Peterson, Minnesota, 184
LaDainian Tomlinson, S.D., 103
Jamaal Charles, Kansas City, 87
LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 78
Le'Veon Bell, Pittsburgh, 62
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 51
Arian Foster, Houston, 51
Chris Johnson, Tennesee, 50
Shaun Alexander, Seattle, 49
DeMarco Murray, Dallas, 48
Tiki Barber, NY Giants, 47
Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas, 47
Michael Turner, Atl, 40
Doug Martin, Tampa Bay, 37
Ray Rice, Baltimore, 36
Brian Westbrook, Philadelphia 33
Marshawn Lynch, Seattle, 32
Larry Johnson, Kansas City, 26
Steven Jackson, St. Louis, 17
Frank Gore-----14-------------------------------------
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I totally agree
I think it is a shame that the Hall of Fame voters seem to be ignoring the rushing totals of many of the talented backs who emerged from the 1990's and early 2000's. The draft classes from the 1990's produced a lot of quality backs and this appears to have lessened their accomplishments as quite a few reached the 10,000 Yard mark. The draft classes post 2000 have not produced as many 10,000 Yard rushers, which should make running backs who achieve that milestone even more impressive as the game transition to more two back systems and passing attacks.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Thats a great point...Its going to be interesting to see how opinions of RBs change along with opinions of WRs...We've already seen how WRs who retired with monster numbers aren't even getting considered now...Will the lessening of the RB position be handled similarly?
I think whats important to note, particularly with how the voters make determinations, is that there are specifically different categories of HOFers...It was spelled out this year perhaps better than any other...Dominant players like Terrell Davis, Easley, Tony Boselli...All with less than 100 games, but who were considered dominant at their positions during their short(er) careers are now not only getting HOF consideration, but are being elected ahead of less dominant players who either accumulated more games or bigger numbers over extended careers...
So the question moving ahead for me becomes this...For borderline HOF guys, is it going to now hurt a players odds to have an extended career? Joe Jacoby is a great example...
If Joe Jacoby had retired after the 1988 season...He would have had 110 games played over 8 seasons...4 Pro Bowls and 2 First Team All-Pro selections, along with 2 Super Bowl titles...Would he be viewed as more dominant with this resume? Rather than having the same resume, add 1 Super Bowl, along with 60 more games, many of which he was not playing at the same high standard as his early career...
If Tony Boselli had continued his career for another 5-6 years, but not played as dominantly as he did pre-injury..Would he still be viewed in the same light that enabled him to jump Jacoby this year and make the cut to top 10? Going to be something that bears watching...
Last note on O.J. Anderson...While he was a solid back when he played for the Giants, he was not considered a dominant player at that point in his career...I think if the voters focused more on his time playing for the Cardinals, and watched a little more of that film, he would get more HOF support. He was well on his way to the HOF after his first 5-6 years or so...But I think the voters mostly remember Super Bowl MVP Anderson, who was a shell of the RB he had been early is his career and unfortunately thats how he is being remembered...The Cardinals OJ Anderson was HOF quality player.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Agree again on OJ.Anderson. Parcells used to kid him that he went from a gazelle to an old man plow horse. But the fact he could adapt his style and still rush for a 1000 yards while stepping in for an inured Joe Morris and lead the way to a SB should be considered a good thing. How Floyd Little gets inducted an OJ gets no love is beyond me. He was a dominant back while with the Cardinals.
Wondering where everyone ranks the HOF eligible or soon to be eligible WRs...How many we plausibly believe will get in from the current Future HOF rookie cards...Here is how I rank their HOF odds..
1- Randy Moss
2- Terrell Owens
3- Larry Fitzgerald
4- Isaac Bruce
5- Calvin Johnson
6- Andre Johnson
7- Hines Ward
8- Torry Holt
9- Reggie Wayne
If Holt and Wayne are elected, it will make the years 1999 and 2004 the most HOF WRs playing in the league in NFL history (11 HOFers in both years)...The previous highs were from 1965-1967 with 9 HOF WRs playing in either the NFL or AFL those years...I guess its possible due to the proliferation of the passing game now, but Holt and Wayne will have a tough time..And anyone else ranked below these guys (like Steve Smith, Jimmy Smith, Anquan Boldin) who played in the league during the 1999 or 2004 seasons almost certainly have little to no chance at being elected as 12th or 13th HOF WRs from those seasons...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.