Completion %..Ben 64.1, Eli 59.7
TD %...Ben 5.1, Eli 4.7
INT %...Ben 2.7, Eli 3.2
Yds/Attempt...Ben 7.9, Eli 7.1
Yds/Completion...Ben 12.3, Eli 11.8
Yds per game...Ben 253, Eli 239.9
QB Rating...Ben 94.0, Eli 83.7
Games Started...Eli 199, Ben 183
4th QTR comebacks...Ben 27, Eli 27
Game Winning Drives...Ben 37, Eli 33
Rushing Yards...Ben 1205, Eli 284
Rushing TDs...Ben 16, Eli 5
Fumbles...Eli 104, Ben 88
If you understand how these numbers stack up, Ben has a rather sizeable advantage in the regular season when comparing the 2...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here are the QBs with a worse Interception % than Eli's 3.2%...Eli has thrown 6800 passes...To compare will only look at active QBs with more than 3400 attempts (half of Eli's total ...
Jay Cutler 3.3%
Ryan Fitzpatrick 3.4%
The End
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
Think Eli has about a half a seasons worth more passing yards at this point than Ben does....not that that means much. He also has more come from behind 4th quarter victories than most QBs. He also shared time with Warner his rookie year if I remember correctly.
You are correct about Eli---Kurt Warner's last start as a Giant was a game against the Cardinals in AZ. Eli started the following week and hasn't missed a start since. I'm not sold on Eli as a HOFer but one stat that should be considered in his durability. Only Favre and Peyton have a longer streak. He should surpass his brother but he won't catch Favre.
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JMDVM said:
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Thats a good question. Think Ive seen these cards graded both ways. Think my Dawkins 9 has the coating on still. Do you think the coating will hurt the overall grade?
@JMDVM said:
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Thats a good question. Think Ive seen these cards graded both ways. Think my Dawkins 9 has the coating on still. Do you think the coating will hurt the overall grade?
If you leave the coating they can't ding you on the surface. So, better shot at a 10. As for eye appeal. I hate the coating.
@JMDVM said:
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Thats a good question. Think Ive seen these cards graded both ways. Think my Dawkins 9 has the coating on still. Do you think the coating will hurt the overall grade?
If you leave the coating they can't ding you on the surface. So, better shot at a 10. As for eye appeal. I hate the coating.
I was under the impression the coatings surface was graded when left on. Those coatings tend to have lots of micro-scratches.
Looking to have some custom cuts or plain custom cards built? PM me.
@JMDVM said:
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Thats a good question. Think Ive seen these cards graded both ways. Think my Dawkins 9 has the coating on still. Do you think the coating will hurt the overall grade?
If you leave the coating they can't ding you on the surface. So, better shot at a 10. As for eye appeal. I hate the coating.
I was under the impression the coatings surface was graded when left on. Those coatings tend to have lots of micro-scratches.
Yes the coatings have scratches but the surface grading is the surface of the card. Not the coating. Found this out some years back on the same card.
@JasP24 said:
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
@JasP24 said:
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
None of those non HOFers you listed one it twice
Correct, which is why i commented " Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB"
Similarly, the QBs you listed who had multiple SB MVPs also won a minimum of 4 Championship vs. Eli only winning 2...Huge difference ...Also had League MVP awards under their belts...Has Eli ever even received a single MVP vote?
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
None of those non HOFers you listed one it twice
But Simms was at least on a second SB team and unfortunately got hurt. IMO a more consistent QB than Eli who had no great receivers other than Bavaro and played in Giants Stadium---a much more inhospitable environment than Metlife. I've photographed games on both fields and there is hardly any wind in Metlife
@JMDVM said:
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Thats a good question. Think Ive seen these cards graded both ways. Think my Dawkins 9 has the coating on still. Do you think the coating will hurt the overall grade?
If you leave the coating they can't ding you on the surface. So, better shot at a 10. As for eye appeal. I hate the coating.
I was under the impression the coatings surface was graded when left on. Those coatings tend to have lots of micro-scratches.
Yes the coatings have scratches but the surface grading is the surface of the card. Not the coating. Found this out some years back on the same card.
@JasP24 said:
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
None of those non HOFers you listed one it twice
But Simms was at least on a second SB team and unfortunately got hurt. IMO a more consistent QB than Eli who had no great receivers other than Bavaro and played in Giants Stadium---a much more inhospitable environment than Metlife. I've photographed games on both fields and there is hardly any wind in Metlife
I believe Simms is very underrated as well...Surprised both Simms and McNabb dont get more love..Its another reason I think borderline HOF QB is one of the tougher places to get elected from..You are either a slam dunk/easy layup election, or you get in a as a Senior candidate...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
None of those non HOFers you listed one it twice
But Simms was at least on a second SB team and unfortunately got hurt. IMO a more consistent QB than Eli who had no great receivers other than Bavaro and played in Giants Stadium---a much more inhospitable environment than Metlife. I've photographed games on both fields and there is hardly any wind in Metlife
I believe Simms is very underrated as well...Surprised both Simms and McNabb dont get more love..Its another reason I think borderline HOF QB is one of the tougher places to get elected from..You are either a slam dunk/easy layup election, or you get in a as a Senior candidate...lol
@sufferingbillsfan said:
2018 class is going to be interesting. Among the first time eligibles are: Urlacher, Seymour, Moss, Lewis, Hutchinson. I think all are getting in quickly. In my mind Lewis and Moss are locks, guaranteed, 95%, whatever term you choose. Curious as to who everyone thinks are first ballot guys? What's the most first ballot inductees in a previous class?
I have Lewis, Moss and Urlacher 1st ballot...Since 2004, when the HOF committee started the Semifinal process, we've not had more than 3 first ballot guys in any given year. Ray Lewis is really the only 100% guy out of these 3, but Moss and Urlacher are 90% guys IMO and have strong enough cases to go in first ballot, but what happens with T.O this year at WR could throw a monkey wrench on Moss votes...And Urlacher could lose some votes to Ray Lewis...Seymour and Hutchinson are likely HOFers as well, I'd but them in the 60-70% odds range...Seymour will be an interesting debate as as a DE/DT hybrid..Wasnt really a sack guy, but was great all around..Not really many to compare him to...Hutchinson being a Guard will likely slot behind Faneca, assuming Faneca doesn't go in this year.
The good news is 2020 is a pretty weak year, as well as 2022 if no other big hitters retire this offseason...Should assist guys like Seymour and Hutchinson.
I have always thought Justin Smith was a better player than Seymour. While he lacks the number of career accolades and Super Bowl rings he was just as strong against the run while being a better pass rusher.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Justin Smith was a solid player, but he mostly played on bad defenses...Less Pro Bowls, All Pros and Super Bowl Rings for sure..More sacks due to how each was used on those defenses. Most important difference among the 2 though, Seymour First Team All Decade as chosen by the HOF selection committee...Justin Smith didnt make the team at all. LaRoi Glover was 2nd team behind Seymour along with Kevin Williams.
Smith might get some love once he is eligible in 2020, maybe make the top 25 at some point, buy i'd give him 10-20% chance at HOF induction. Considering Glover hasnt made the top 25 yet in his 4 years of eligibility. Keep in mind Kevin Williams will be in the mix in 2021, who would also be well ahead of Smith in the pecking order of DE/DT hybrid guys.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Justin Smith was a solid player, but he mostly played on bad defenses...Less Pro Bowls, All Pros and Super Bowl Rings for sure..More sacks due to how each was used on those defenses. Most important difference among the 2 though, Seymour First Team All Decade as chosen by the HOF selection committee...Justin Smith didnt make the team at all. LaRoi Glover was 2nd team behind Seymour along with Kevin Williams.
Smith might get some love once he is eligible in 2020, maybe make the top 25 at some point, buy i'd give him 10-20% chance at HOF induction. Considering Glover hasnt made the top 25 yet in his 4 years of eligibility. Keep in mind Kevin Williams will be in the mix in 2021, who would also be well ahead of Smith in the pecking order of DE/DT hybrid guys.
I agree with Jason here. Smith was solid but has a rough road ahead of him. But you can't say never. Insert Fred Dean, Claude Humphrey and Curley Culp notes here.
These are the players I would vote off, with a willingness to vote them back on if/when they one day become a modern era finalist.
These guys appear to be way down the list at the moment, not even making the top 25...Getting less support/fewer votes than others at their positions:
1996 SP ZACH THOMAS- behind Mechlenberg, Clay Matthews, Sam Mills, soon to be Ray Lewis, Urlacher and Patrick Willis
1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE LEROY BUTLER-Lynch, Dawkins, Atwater and Darren Woodson. Soon Reed, Polamalu
1995 FINEST RUBEN BROWN-Wasn't even a nominee
1992 COLLECTORS EDGE JIMMY SMITH-T.O., Bruce, Hines Ward, Torry Holt. Soon Moss, Andre Jonson, Steve Smith, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson
1983 TOPPS GARY ANDERSON-Morten Andersen..Eventually Vinatieri..Cant imagine many other Kickers getting in the next 20 years or so
1993 SP JASON ELAM-same as above
Set should also contain Joe Jacoby, Tony Boselli and Ty Law...Jacoby's last year 2018, and would imagine he would belong on the Senior set anyway in the case that hes not elected..If memory serves, no vote needed to transfer a guy from modern to senior when modern eligibility runs out...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
These are the players I would vote off, with a willingness to vote them back on if/when they one day become a modern era finalist.
These guys appear to be way down the list at the moment, not even making the top 25...Getting less support/fewer votes than others at their positions:
1996 SP ZACH THOMAS- behind Mechlenberg, Clay Matthews, Sam Mills, soon to be Ray Lewis, Urlacher and Patrick Willis
1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE LEROY BUTLER-Lynch, Dawkins, Atwater and Darren Woodson. Soon Reed, Polamalu
1995 FINEST RUBEN BROWN-Wasn't even a nominee
1992 COLLECTORS EDGE JIMMY SMITH-T.O., Bruce, Hines Ward, Torry Holt. Soon Moss, Andre Jonson, Steve Smith, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson
1983 TOPPS GARY ANDERSON-Morten Andersen..Eventually Vinatieri..Cant imagine many other Kickers getting in the next 20 years or so
1993 SP JASON ELAM-same as above
Set should also contain Joe Jacoby, Tony Boselli and Ty Law...Jacoby's last year 2018, and would imagine he would belong on the Senior set anyway in the case that hes not elected..If memory serves, no vote needed to transfer a guy from modern to senior when modern eligibility runs out...
If this is an official poll (to eventually submit an official poll), I second the vote for removal and addition of all of the above.
How about everyone cut and paste the below and add to the number if you are are in agreement or disagreement?
Remove:
ZACH THOMAS- Yes 2 No 0
LEROY BUTLER- Yes 2 No 0
RUBEN BROWN- Yes 2 No 0
JIMMY SMITH- Yes 2 No 0
GARY ANDERSON- Yes 2 No 0
JASON ELAM- Yes 2 No 0
Add:
JOE JACOBY- Yes 2 No 0
TY LAW- Yes 2 No 0
TONY BOSELLI- Yes 2 No 0
Remove:
ZACH THOMAS- Yes 3 No 0
LEROY BUTLER- Yes 3 No 0
RUBEN BROWN- Yes 3 No 0
JIMMY SMITH- Yes 3 No 0
GARY ANDERSON- Yes 3 No 0
JASON ELAM- Yes 3 No 0
Add:
JOE JACOBY- Yes 2 No 1
TY LAW- Yes 2 No 1
TONY BOSELLI- Yes 2 No 1
Remove:
ZACH THOMAS- Yes 3 No 1
LEROY BUTLER- Yes 4 No 0
RUBEN BROWN- Yes 4 No 0
JIMMY SMITH- Yes 4 No 0
GARY ANDERSON- Yes 4 No 0
JASON ELAM- Yes 4 No 0
Add:
JOE JACOBY- Yes 3 No 1
TY LAW- Yes 3 No 1
TONY BOSELLI- Yes 3 No 1
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I will add that PSA is very hesitant to remove cards from sets, especially when they've been part of a set for a long time like the cards we're discussing here have. As per my votes above, I do believe some cards should be removed from the set. But PSA might not be in favor of it. Just a heads up.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Remove:
ZACH THOMAS- Yes 3 No 1
LEROY BUTLER- Yes 4 No 0
RUBEN BROWN- Yes 4 No 0
JIMMY SMITH- Yes 4 No 0
GARY ANDERSON- Yes 4 No 0
JASON ELAM- Yes 4 No 0
Add:
JOE JACOBY- Yes 3 No 1
TY LAW- Yes 3 No 1
TONY BOSELLI- Yes 3 No 1
Remove everyone suggested. Add everyone suggested PLUS Mecklenberg,Hinton,Matthews,Kenn
Completion %..Ben 64.1, Eli 59.7
TD %...Ben 5.1, Eli 4.7
INT %...Ben 2.7, Eli 3.2
Yds/Attempt...Ben 7.9, Eli 7.1
Yds/Completion...Ben 12.3, Eli 11.8
Yds per game...Ben 253, Eli 239.9
QB Rating...Ben 94.0, Eli 83.7
Games Started...Eli 199, Ben 183
4th QTR comebacks...Ben 27, Eli 27
Game Winning Drives...Ben 37, Eli 33
Rushing Yards...Ben 1205, Eli 284
Rushing TDs...Ben 16, Eli 5
Fumbles...Eli 104, Ben 88
If you understand how these numbers stack up, Ben has a rather sizeable advantage in the regular season when comparing the 2...
Let's not forget Big Ben had Hines Ward and Antonio Brown to throw to. Who did Eli have? Amani Toomer and Plexiglass Burress. And now OBJ
Giants and Steelers Offensive Pro Bowlers since Eli and Ben came into the league in 2004:
Steelers: Jerome Bettis-RB, Marvel Smith-OT, Alan Faneca-OG , Jeff Hartings-C, Hines Ward-WR, Willie Parker-RB, Heath Miller-TE, Maurkice Pouncey-C, Mike Wallace-WR, Antonio Brown-WR, LeVeon Bell-RB, David DeCastro-OG
Giants: Tiki Barber-RB, Jeremy Shockey-TE, David Tyree-WR, Shaun O-Hara-C, Chris Snee-OG, David Diehl-OT, Steve Smith-WR, Victor Cruz-WR, Odell Beckham-WR
Steelers 12 Offensive Pro Bowlers, Giants 9
IMO, this doesnt support the argument that the Steelers had much better players around Ben then Eli had...Not enough to explain the rather large differential in the regular season numbers.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@shagrotn77 said:
I will add that PSA is very hesitant to remove cards from sets, especially when they've been part of a set for a long time like the cards we're discussing here have. As per my votes above, I do believe some cards should be removed from the set. But PSA might not be in favor of it. Just a heads up.
Its definitely been awhile...But the only case I remember was the Kurt Warner card being voted for (and removed) from the QB set around 10 years ago or so...Also, we were able to vote for and change a specific Rookie Card on the set (Junior Seau). I would imagine that PSA will do whatever the majority votes for...That being said, getting a majority to remove the cards in question will be close to or next to impossible IMO. 79 people collecting the Future Modern set, we have a grand total of 4 who have voted here...lol
Back when we held votes here like when we first created the set and prior to requesting additions, we would get close to 20 votes of the 40-50 or so who were collecting the set..The Set Registry forum here is mostly DOA now.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Looking over the All-Pro vote counts from 2010-2016 (3 years left) we can start getting a good idea of who will be on the Team of the Decade 2010s...Still 3 more votes left with a maximum of 50 per year per position, so still possible a guy could be ultra dominant the next 3 years and get to 150 votes..Enough to still crack the majority of the positions..But just some guys to start thinking about as becoming worthy of the Future HOF set in the next couple of years...
QB...most likely will be Aaron Rodgers and Brady..Although Ryan or Cam could jump in there if they can have another MVP season or two before 2020.
RB...Adrian Peterson will probably be there, the 2nd RB spot currently held by Jamal Charles is up for grabs. McCoy, Bell. Elliot, Muray..All guys who could conceivably end up in the #1 or 2 RB spot for the decade.
WR...Calvin Johnson and Antonio Brown going to be tough to catch..Julio Jones the closest to these guys, will need at least 2 more dominant years though.
TE..Dont see anyone catching Gronkowski..Jimmy Graham and Kelce possible but they'd really have to have 1st Team All-Pro type years for the next 3...
OT..Joe Thomas is set..Tyron Smith the current #2, but a few guys in the realm of catching him
OG...Marshall Yanda and Jahri Evans the current top 2, but neither safe there..Zach Martin, Iupati and Sitton could catch both of them
OC..Really up for grabs..5 or 6 guys in the mix with no clear leaders
Edge Rushers...Khalil Mack the only guy who can catch JJ Watt, so certain he will be All Decade 1st Team...Mack in the 2nd spot, but Quinn, Wake, Beasley all within easy striking distance for the 2nd spot
Interior Linemen
Suh and Aaron Donald looking likely, but with only around 100 votes each could be caught and passed
LBs...Von Miller and Luke Kuechly with comfortable lead...The 3rd LB spot up for grabs..
CBs...Richard Sherman I doubt gets caught and passed by multiple CBs, which means he will likely be 1st Team All Decade...2nd spot is currently Revis, but Patrick Peterson, Josh Norman, Aquib Talib, even Marcus Peters all guys who could end up surpassing him
S...Earl Thomas has a clear lead and will be one of the two Safeties on the 1st team...2nd Team currently Eric Berry, but Weddle, Landon Collins, Mathieu all possibles with 2 or 3 dominant seasons...
Special teams really doesn't matter when it comes to HOF determinations but Johnny Hekker and Justin Tucker the 2 leaders for now.
In Summary...Would start taking a hard look at rookie cards for Antonio Brown, Rob Gronkowski, Von Miller, Luke Keuchly, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas...I dont think any of them have better than 50% HOF odds at the moment (mostly due to low numbers in games player department), but all are quickly approaching that status, and placement on the 1st Team All-Decade roster would certainly add heavily to their HOF odds.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@shagrotn77 said:
I will add that PSA is very hesitant to remove cards from sets, especially when they've been part of a set for a long time like the cards we're discussing here have. As per my votes above, I do believe some cards should be removed from the set. But PSA might not be in favor of it. Just a heads up.
Its definitely been awhile...But the only case I remember was the Kurt Warner card being voted for (and removed) from the QB set around 10 years ago or so...Also, we were able to vote for and change a specific Rookie Card on the set (Junior Seau). I would imagine that PSA will do whatever the majority votes for...That being said, getting a majority to remove the cards in question will be close to or next to impossible IMO. 79 people collecting the Future Modern set, we have a grand total of 4 who have voted here...lol
Back when we held votes here like when we first created the set and prior to requesting additions, we would get close to 20 votes of the 40-50 or so who were collecting the set..The Set Registry forum here is mostly DOA now.
It would be nice if PSA would add a link to the corresponding forums(s) on the page of each set. I'm guessing there may be collectors out there who are not aware or have forgotten about them.
@alifaxwa2 said:
Any HOF chance for James Harrison?
I think Harrison will warrant consideration for sure...5 Pro Bowls, 2 First Team All-Pro, 2 Super Bowl rings, to go along with his signature play (INT return vs. Warner in Super Bowl)...Also a Defensive Player of the Year award which tends to help quite a bit...
As far as his odds go? I'd put him just ahead of Vince Wilfork and just behind Ronde Barber among the defensive candidates who will become available in the next few years..Next level up being Jared Allen and Patrick Willis, but I think Harrison needs to improve his resume to surpass either of those guys.
Harrison still playing at a high level, so he could keep adding to the resume. But for now 20-30% odds for Harrison IMO.
Great player to measure him up with resume wise is Randy Gradshar who never got in, but if Gradishar had won 2 rings? He probably would have in his final few chances...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Top 10 QBs of the past 20 years (my rankings)...
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Ben Rothlisberger
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning
Phillip Rivers
Matt Ryan
Brady probably moves to #1 with a Championship this year...Ben jumps ahead of Warner, maybe even Brees with another ring...Aaron probably stays put but would extend the distance above Eli as of now I have them pretty even on HOF odds...Matt Ryan slots in right under Rodgers if he takes home the title...Will be a great Super Bowl this year, guaranteed to see 2 of the top 10 QBs of the past 20 years...
________-Edited to fix the list title______________-
So....in your opinion......How does Carson Palmer stack up against Phillip Rivers on your list?.....Palmer didnt make the list, was just wondering how far down you have him.
Carson Palmer probably the next guy down the list, 11th..Romo 12th and so on..QBs who realistically have no shot at the HOF without a Super Bowl appearance. Rivers the top non-SB guy, and I'd say he's a long shot if he retired today. As I spoke about previously in this thread...8 QBs from any particular era is the norm throughout history...lower on the list than that, I believe will have a very hard time making the HOF, even as Senior candidates.
Would also move Ryan above Rivers now with Pending MVP award and Super Bowl appearance. Quite possibly moves ahead of Eli with a Super Bowl Win, and Tom Brady moves above Peyton with a 5th ring.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@TmbrWolf22 said:
You would move Ryan ahead of Eli with only one SB win?
A SB Win AND an MVP award, yes. The both have 4 Pro Bowls..Ryan has a 1st Team All-Pro that Eli doesnt have...Ryan's regular season numbers (averages) already crushes Eli...
So not really "only one SB win" that moves him ahead...But adding a Super Bowl win AND an MVP award to Matt Ryan's resume yes puts him ahead of Eli...If he loses, he's still very close to Eli, but will remain just below him...
All my opinion of course, but I do base my opinions in facts and historical HOF voting precedence.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Next year will be Craig's last year of modern eligibility, after which he will move into the Senior pool, and likely be the top RB available among senior candidates.
Craig made the final 15 in 2010, but has since only been a semifinalist...I'd put his odds fairly low at this point, 20% maybe..Guys do tend to get a hard look in their last year, but I doubt Tomlinson and Davis both go in this weekend, so he will still have to somehow get more votes than Davis and Ed James which probably isn't very likely.
But could see him go the Kenny Easley from the 80s All Decade Team route in a few years as a Senior nominee,
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Oh, whoever submitted this also snuck Andre Johnson and Antonio Brown. The Brown card is a Panini Limited which I believe is number to /499 and therefore not eligible for the set. I'm beginning to understand the frustration that many of you have been expressing over the years.
@sufferingbillsfan said:
Oh, whoever submitted this also snuck Andre Johnson and Antonio Brown. The Brown card is a Panini Limited which I believe is number to /499 and therefore not eligible for the set. I'm beginning to understand the frustration that many of you have been expressing over the years.
Original post did not get sent. We had a 4-1 vote in favor of Jacoby so I voted for him. Not sure who sent it in, but I voted no on Johnson and Brown.
I got the poll as well..Voted yes on Jacoby, Yes on Johnson, No on Brown..Brown doesnt have the numbers yet, not even at 10k receiving yards...
And yes, we used to have a solid group here who would work together on submissions. But over the past few years, its more so rogue submissions at random times...We are at the mercy of the voters, lets hope the majority are smart about it and actually research the numbers to see who belongs and who doesnt.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
I got the poll as well..Voted yes on Jacoby, Yes on Johnson, No on Brown..Brown doesnt have the numbers yet, not even at 10k receiving yards...
And yes, we used to have a solid group here who would work together on submissions. But over the past few years, its more so rogue submissions at random times...We are at the mercy of the voters, lets hope the majority are smart about it and actually research the numbers to see who belongs and who doesnt.
Comments
The turnovers definately hurt him though. Wish they didnt all count against the QBs.
Ben is a lock. I bet he is first ballot
Here are the numbers:
Completion %..Ben 64.1, Eli 59.7
TD %...Ben 5.1, Eli 4.7
INT %...Ben 2.7, Eli 3.2
Yds/Attempt...Ben 7.9, Eli 7.1
Yds/Completion...Ben 12.3, Eli 11.8
Yds per game...Ben 253, Eli 239.9
QB Rating...Ben 94.0, Eli 83.7
Games Started...Eli 199, Ben 183
4th QTR comebacks...Ben 27, Eli 27
Game Winning Drives...Ben 37, Eli 33
Rushing Yards...Ben 1205, Eli 284
Rushing TDs...Ben 16, Eli 5
Fumbles...Eli 104, Ben 88
If you understand how these numbers stack up, Ben has a rather sizeable advantage in the regular season when comparing the 2...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Very nice
Here are the QBs with a worse Interception % than Eli's 3.2%...Eli has thrown 6800 passes...To compare will only look at active QBs with more than 3400 attempts (half of Eli's total ...
Jay Cutler 3.3%
Ryan Fitzpatrick 3.4%
The End
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You are correct about Eli---Kurt Warner's last start as a Giant was a game against the Cardinals in AZ. Eli started the following week and hasn't missed a start since. I'm not sold on Eli as a HOFer but one stat that should be considered in his durability. Only Favre and Peyton have a longer streak. He should surpass his brother but he won't catch Favre.
Grading question. I bought 3 raw Brian Dawkins rookie cards. Does one remove/peel the coating before submission to PSA?
I've never submitted modern cards.
Here is a list of QBs with as many Super Bowl MVPs as Eli
Bart Starr
Terry Bradshaw
Joe Montana
Tom Brady
Lock
Here's a list of Super Bowl MVP QBs NOT in the HOF:
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB...
Bart Starr--5 World Championships
Terry Bradshaw--4 World Championships
Joe Montana--4 World Championships
Tom Brady--5 World Championships
Bart Starr--1966 NFL Regular Season MVP
Terry Bradshaw--1978 NFL Regular Season MVP
Joe Montana--1989 and 1990 NFL Regular Season MVP
Tom Brady--2007 and 2010 NFL Regular Season MVP
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thats a good question. Think Ive seen these cards graded both ways. Think my Dawkins 9 has the coating on still. Do you think the coating will hurt the overall grade?
Just 1 guys opinion...(not mine)...
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If you leave the coating they can't ding you on the surface. So, better shot at a 10. As for eye appeal. I hate the coating.
I was under the impression the coatings surface was graded when left on. Those coatings tend to have lots of micro-scratches.
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Yes the coatings have scratches but the surface grading is the surface of the card. Not the coating. Found this out some years back on the same card.
None of those non HOFers you listed one it twice
Correct, which is why i commented " Luckily, Super Bowl MVP in one additional game isn't all it takes to be a HOF QB"
Similarly, the QBs you listed who had multiple SB MVPs also won a minimum of 4 Championship vs. Eli only winning 2...Huge difference ...Also had League MVP awards under their belts...Has Eli ever even received a single MVP vote?
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
But Simms was at least on a second SB team and unfortunately got hurt. IMO a more consistent QB than Eli who had no great receivers other than Bavaro and played in Giants Stadium---a much more inhospitable environment than Metlife. I've photographed games on both fields and there is hardly any wind in Metlife
Thank you all for your input.
I believe Simms is very underrated as well...Surprised both Simms and McNabb dont get more love..Its another reason I think borderline HOF QB is one of the tougher places to get elected from..You are either a slam dunk/easy layup election, or you get in a as a Senior candidate...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Agree on Simms
I have always thought Justin Smith was a better player than Seymour. While he lacks the number of career accolades and Super Bowl rings he was just as strong against the run while being a better pass rusher.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Justin Smith was a solid player, but he mostly played on bad defenses...Less Pro Bowls, All Pros and Super Bowl Rings for sure..More sacks due to how each was used on those defenses. Most important difference among the 2 though, Seymour First Team All Decade as chosen by the HOF selection committee...Justin Smith didnt make the team at all. LaRoi Glover was 2nd team behind Seymour along with Kevin Williams.
Smith might get some love once he is eligible in 2020, maybe make the top 25 at some point, buy i'd give him 10-20% chance at HOF induction. Considering Glover hasnt made the top 25 yet in his 4 years of eligibility. Keep in mind Kevin Williams will be in the mix in 2021, who would also be well ahead of Smith in the pecking order of DE/DT hybrid guys.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree with Jason here. Smith was solid but has a rough road ahead of him. But you can't say never. Insert Fred Dean, Claude Humphrey and Curley Culp notes here.
Jason Peters was not voted down. Would like to see the corrections we talked about with removals - who can make that happen?
These are the players I would vote off, with a willingness to vote them back on if/when they one day become a modern era finalist.
These guys appear to be way down the list at the moment, not even making the top 25...Getting less support/fewer votes than others at their positions:
1996 SP ZACH THOMAS- behind Mechlenberg, Clay Matthews, Sam Mills, soon to be Ray Lewis, Urlacher and Patrick Willis
1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE LEROY BUTLER-Lynch, Dawkins, Atwater and Darren Woodson. Soon Reed, Polamalu
1995 FINEST RUBEN BROWN-Wasn't even a nominee
1992 COLLECTORS EDGE JIMMY SMITH-T.O., Bruce, Hines Ward, Torry Holt. Soon Moss, Andre Jonson, Steve Smith, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson
1983 TOPPS GARY ANDERSON-Morten Andersen..Eventually Vinatieri..Cant imagine many other Kickers getting in the next 20 years or so
1993 SP JASON ELAM-same as above
Set should also contain Joe Jacoby, Tony Boselli and Ty Law...Jacoby's last year 2018, and would imagine he would belong on the Senior set anyway in the case that hes not elected..If memory serves, no vote needed to transfer a guy from modern to senior when modern eligibility runs out...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If this is an official poll (to eventually submit an official poll), I second the vote for removal and addition of all of the above.
How about everyone cut and paste the below and add to the number if you are are in agreement or disagreement?
Remove:
ZACH THOMAS- Yes 2 No 0
LEROY BUTLER- Yes 2 No 0
RUBEN BROWN- Yes 2 No 0
JIMMY SMITH- Yes 2 No 0
GARY ANDERSON- Yes 2 No 0
JASON ELAM- Yes 2 No 0
Add:
JOE JACOBY- Yes 2 No 0
TY LAW- Yes 2 No 0
TONY BOSELLI- Yes 2 No 0
Remove:
ZACH THOMAS- Yes 3 No 0
LEROY BUTLER- Yes 3 No 0
RUBEN BROWN- Yes 3 No 0
JIMMY SMITH- Yes 3 No 0
GARY ANDERSON- Yes 3 No 0
JASON ELAM- Yes 3 No 0
Add:
JOE JACOBY- Yes 2 No 1
TY LAW- Yes 2 No 1
TONY BOSELLI- Yes 2 No 1
I will add that PSA is very hesitant to remove cards from sets, especially when they've been part of a set for a long time like the cards we're discussing here have. As per my votes above, I do believe some cards should be removed from the set. But PSA might not be in favor of it. Just a heads up.
Remove everyone suggested. Add everyone suggested PLUS Mecklenberg,Hinton,Matthews,Kenn
Let's not forget Big Ben had Hines Ward and Antonio Brown to throw to. Who did Eli have? Amani Toomer and Plexiglass Burress. And now OBJ
Giants and Steelers Offensive Pro Bowlers since Eli and Ben came into the league in 2004:
Steelers: Jerome Bettis-RB, Marvel Smith-OT, Alan Faneca-OG , Jeff Hartings-C, Hines Ward-WR, Willie Parker-RB, Heath Miller-TE, Maurkice Pouncey-C, Mike Wallace-WR, Antonio Brown-WR, LeVeon Bell-RB, David DeCastro-OG
Giants: Tiki Barber-RB, Jeremy Shockey-TE, David Tyree-WR, Shaun O-Hara-C, Chris Snee-OG, David Diehl-OT, Steve Smith-WR, Victor Cruz-WR, Odell Beckham-WR
Steelers 12 Offensive Pro Bowlers, Giants 9
IMO, this doesnt support the argument that the Steelers had much better players around Ben then Eli had...Not enough to explain the rather large differential in the regular season numbers.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Its definitely been awhile...But the only case I remember was the Kurt Warner card being voted for (and removed) from the QB set around 10 years ago or so...Also, we were able to vote for and change a specific Rookie Card on the set (Junior Seau). I would imagine that PSA will do whatever the majority votes for...That being said, getting a majority to remove the cards in question will be close to or next to impossible IMO. 79 people collecting the Future Modern set, we have a grand total of 4 who have voted here...lol
Back when we held votes here like when we first created the set and prior to requesting additions, we would get close to 20 votes of the 40-50 or so who were collecting the set..The Set Registry forum here is mostly DOA now.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Agree. Might as well remove them, but it does not matter. The set is fluid with changes every year.
Looking over the All-Pro vote counts from 2010-2016 (3 years left) we can start getting a good idea of who will be on the Team of the Decade 2010s...Still 3 more votes left with a maximum of 50 per year per position, so still possible a guy could be ultra dominant the next 3 years and get to 150 votes..Enough to still crack the majority of the positions..But just some guys to start thinking about as becoming worthy of the Future HOF set in the next couple of years...
QB...most likely will be Aaron Rodgers and Brady..Although Ryan or Cam could jump in there if they can have another MVP season or two before 2020.
RB...Adrian Peterson will probably be there, the 2nd RB spot currently held by Jamal Charles is up for grabs. McCoy, Bell. Elliot, Muray..All guys who could conceivably end up in the #1 or 2 RB spot for the decade.
WR...Calvin Johnson and Antonio Brown going to be tough to catch..Julio Jones the closest to these guys, will need at least 2 more dominant years though.
TE..Dont see anyone catching Gronkowski..Jimmy Graham and Kelce possible but they'd really have to have 1st Team All-Pro type years for the next 3...
OT..Joe Thomas is set..Tyron Smith the current #2, but a few guys in the realm of catching him
OG...Marshall Yanda and Jahri Evans the current top 2, but neither safe there..Zach Martin, Iupati and Sitton could catch both of them
OC..Really up for grabs..5 or 6 guys in the mix with no clear leaders
Edge Rushers...Khalil Mack the only guy who can catch JJ Watt, so certain he will be All Decade 1st Team...Mack in the 2nd spot, but Quinn, Wake, Beasley all within easy striking distance for the 2nd spot
Interior Linemen
Suh and Aaron Donald looking likely, but with only around 100 votes each could be caught and passed
LBs...Von Miller and Luke Kuechly with comfortable lead...The 3rd LB spot up for grabs..
CBs...Richard Sherman I doubt gets caught and passed by multiple CBs, which means he will likely be 1st Team All Decade...2nd spot is currently Revis, but Patrick Peterson, Josh Norman, Aquib Talib, even Marcus Peters all guys who could end up surpassing him
S...Earl Thomas has a clear lead and will be one of the two Safeties on the 1st team...2nd Team currently Eric Berry, but Weddle, Landon Collins, Mathieu all possibles with 2 or 3 dominant seasons...
Special teams really doesn't matter when it comes to HOF determinations but Johnny Hekker and Justin Tucker the 2 leaders for now.
In Summary...Would start taking a hard look at rookie cards for Antonio Brown, Rob Gronkowski, Von Miller, Luke Keuchly, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas...I dont think any of them have better than 50% HOF odds at the moment (mostly due to low numbers in games player department), but all are quickly approaching that status, and placement on the 1st Team All-Decade roster would certainly add heavily to their HOF odds.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It would be nice if PSA would add a link to the corresponding forums(s) on the page of each set. I'm guessing there may be collectors out there who are not aware or have forgotten about them.
Solid analysis on possible team of the decade. _
Any HOF chance for James Harrison?
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I think Harrison will warrant consideration for sure...5 Pro Bowls, 2 First Team All-Pro, 2 Super Bowl rings, to go along with his signature play (INT return vs. Warner in Super Bowl)...Also a Defensive Player of the Year award which tends to help quite a bit...
As far as his odds go? I'd put him just ahead of Vince Wilfork and just behind Ronde Barber among the defensive candidates who will become available in the next few years..Next level up being Jared Allen and Patrick Willis, but I think Harrison needs to improve his resume to surpass either of those guys.
Harrison still playing at a high level, so he could keep adding to the resume. But for now 20-30% odds for Harrison IMO.
Great player to measure him up with resume wise is Randy Gradshar who never got in, but if Gradishar had won 2 rings? He probably would have in his final few chances...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So....in your opinion......How does Carson Palmer stack up against Phillip Rivers on your list?.....Palmer didnt make the list, was just wondering how far down you have him.
Carson Palmer probably the next guy down the list, 11th..Romo 12th and so on..QBs who realistically have no shot at the HOF without a Super Bowl appearance. Rivers the top non-SB guy, and I'd say he's a long shot if he retired today. As I spoke about previously in this thread...8 QBs from any particular era is the norm throughout history...lower on the list than that, I believe will have a very hard time making the HOF, even as Senior candidates.
Would also move Ryan above Rivers now with Pending MVP award and Super Bowl appearance. Quite possibly moves ahead of Eli with a Super Bowl Win, and Tom Brady moves above Peyton with a 5th ring.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You would move Ryan ahead of Eli with only one SB win?
A SB Win AND an MVP award, yes. The both have 4 Pro Bowls..Ryan has a 1st Team All-Pro that Eli doesnt have...Ryan's regular season numbers (averages) already crushes Eli...
So not really "only one SB win" that moves him ahead...But adding a Super Bowl win AND an MVP award to Matt Ryan's resume yes puts him ahead of Eli...If he loses, he's still very close to Eli, but will remain just below him...
All my opinion of course, but I do base my opinions in facts and historical HOF voting precedence.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Did Roger Craig's ship already sail? I think he's the last remaining skill position player from 80s All Decade Team to not go.
Next year will be Craig's last year of modern eligibility, after which he will move into the Senior pool, and likely be the top RB available among senior candidates.
Craig made the final 15 in 2010, but has since only been a semifinalist...I'd put his odds fairly low at this point, 20% maybe..Guys do tend to get a hard look in their last year, but I doubt Tomlinson and Davis both go in this weekend, so he will still have to somehow get more votes than Davis and Ed James which probably isn't very likely.
But could see him go the Kenny Easley from the 80s All Decade Team route in a few years as a Senior nominee,
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just got a survey monkey to add Jacoby. Since the forum vote was 4-1 in favor, I'm going to vote yes.
Oh, whoever submitted this also snuck Andre Johnson and Antonio Brown. The Brown card is a Panini Limited which I believe is number to /499 and therefore not eligible for the set. I'm beginning to understand the frustration that many of you have been expressing over the years.
Original post did not get sent. We had a 4-1 vote in favor of Jacoby so I voted for him. Not sure who sent it in, but I voted no on Johnson and Brown.
I got the poll as well..Voted yes on Jacoby, Yes on Johnson, No on Brown..Brown doesnt have the numbers yet, not even at 10k receiving yards...
And yes, we used to have a solid group here who would work together on submissions. But over the past few years, its more so rogue submissions at random times...We are at the mercy of the voters, lets hope the majority are smart about it and actually research the numbers to see who belongs and who doesnt.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ditto