I agree on coughlin being out and don't think megatron gets in either. Peyton and Woodson should. What about Jared Allen? And wasn't there another big retirement recently that I'm forgetting about?
Originally posted by: JMDVM As a long time Giants fan, and as an ex-photographer for a website that covered the Giants, I'm of the opinion Tom Coughlin is over rated and is not an HOFer.
I would certainly take that bet...1st Ballot? Probably not, but no doubt Coughlin will get into the HOF pretty quickly was his resume...Hard to be over-rated with 180+ wins and 2 rings..Not to mention what he did with an expansion franchise.
Maybe he was in NY simply due to the amount of media coverage, but would think he would stack up very favorably to any other Coaches eligible or who will become eligible in the next 10 years...Aside from Belichick of course, but he's probably still coaching 5+ years from now..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Originally posted by: DanBessette I agree on coughlin being out and don't think megatron gets in either. Peyton and Woodson should. What about Jared Allen? And wasn't there another big retirement recently that I'm forgetting about?
Logan Mankins and Marshawn Lynch the other significant retirements post 2015 season. All of these guys will get some play in the HOF conversation...
Peyton and Woodson are the obvious first ballot guys...
I think Coughlin is probably 3rd in line and will get in within his first few years of eligibility (similar to Dungy's path)..Of course, that is if he actual doesnt end of coaching again as it sounds like he will anyway...
I'd rank Jared Allen 4th...Its going to be important how deep he gets in his first year..He will almost surely be a top 25 semifinalist, if he can crack the top 15 and become a finalist in his 1st year, then that will increase his odds to near 100%, although he probably waits 5-6-7 years or so...
Calvin, Mankins and Lynch are all less than 50% odds IMO...All COULD at some point get in, but if I'm making those bets now, would say no to all 3. Again, will get a good idea based on if they make the top 25 or top 15 in year 1. Its typically a very strong indicator. I think all 3 have a fairly solid chance at top 25 their first year eligible..Simply because come 2021, the voters will have "cleaned up" many of the modern guys who have/had been waiting awhile...Same time, others who have made the semi's but likely will never make top 15 or the HOF will run out of eligibility.
If any of them miss the top 25 in year one or even year two, I'd mostly cross them off the HOF list unless some type of voting rule change takes place that increases their odds (like even bigger classes).
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Originally posted by: DanBessette I agree on coughlin being out and don't think megatron gets in either. Peyton and Woodson should. What about Jared Allen? And wasn't there another big retirement recently that I'm forgetting about?
Reggie Wayne Should be eligible a year earlier, Class of 2020, didnt play in 2015. I believe he will end up behind Calvin Johnson on the HOF candidate list at WR.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Originally posted by: JMDVM As a long time Giants fan, and as an ex-photographer for a website that covered the Giants, I'm of the opinion Tom Coughlin is over rated and is not an HOFer.
I would certainly take that bet...1st Ballot? Probably not, but no doubt Coughlin will get into the HOF pretty quickly was his resume...Hard to be over-rated with 180+ wins and 2 rings..Not to mention what he did with an expansion franchise.
Maybe he was in NY simply due to the amount of media coverage, but would think he would stack up very favorably to any other Coaches eligible or who will become eligible in the next 10 years...Aside from Belichick of course, but he's probably still coaching 5+ years from now..
Haven't had a chance to post for 2 weeks, but I just wanted to add a little more to the Coughlin discussion. I'm not saying he wasn't a good coach. I'm just saying he falls a notch below the HOF. Just my opinion. I've seen too many team meltdowns when critical games were on the line. Ironically he was on the hot seat both years when he took 9-7 teams to the Super Bowl. He was that close to being fired. Yes he had 180 wins, but his winning percentage was only 53%. Sure blame some of that on coaching an expansion team, but his records with the Jags and Giants were almost identical. I find it hard to believe his record was similar to Landry and Shula. Finally, he was given an ultimatum by the Giant ownership to "lighten up" or he'd be gone, as there was an ongoing player rebellion led by among others Michael Strahan. Again, just my opinion.
All very good points, and I'm sure each of them will be explored in depth when it comes to his candidacy...Most likely will keep him from being first ballot...
As far as Landry or Shula, he doesn't have to be that level to be in the HOF...There are 23 Coaches in the HOF...With Don Coryell and Jimmy Johnson also fairly close that last few years. Would certainly put Coughlin behind Belichick..Would also put Coughlin firmly in the top 25 coaches of all-time.
Lets look at the HOF eligible coaches with 2 Super Bowls who are NOT in the HOF...
George Seifert 124-67 career record w/playoffs Tom Flores 105-90 career record (playoffs included) Jimmy Johnson 89-67 career record- 2015 HOF Finalist
Now lets look at HOF eligible coaches with 180+ wins who aren't in the HOF. Dan Reeves Four Super Bowl appearances, ZERO wins Marty Schottenheimer ZERO SB wins or appearances Chuck Knox ZERO SB wins or apperances
These are the reasons Coughlin will be a HOFer...Probably not first ballot, but will be elected, my guess within 3-5 years of eligibility.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Originally posted by: JasP24 All very good points, and I'm sure each of them will be explored in depth when it comes to his candidacy...Most likely will keep him from being first ballot...
As far as Landry or Shula, he doesn't have to be that level to be in the HOF...There are 23 Coaches in the HOF...With Don Coryell and Jimmy Johnson also fairly close that last few years. Would certainly put Coughlin behind Belichick..Would also put Coughlin firmly in the top 25 coaches of all-time.
Lets look at the HOF eligible coaches with 2 Super Bowls who are NOT in the HOF...
George Seifert 124-67 career record w/playoffs Tom Flores 105-90 career record (playoffs included) Jimmy Johnson 89-67 career record- 2015 HOF Finalist
Now lets look at HOF eligible coaches with 180+ wins who aren't in the HOF. Dan Reeves Four Super Bowl appearances, ZERO wins Marty Schottenheimer ZERO SB wins or appearances Chuck Knox ZERO SB wins or apperances
These are the reasons Coughlin will be a HOFer...Probably not first ballot, but will be elected, my guess within 3-5 years of eligibility.[/q
That was the most well planned out case for Coughlin I've seen yet.
I was wondering if anyone had any information as to why Chuck Howley has never received any kind of HOF support? He has never been any type of a candidate and the media members behind the "Talk of Fame" website have not even addressed him in their "State Your Case" posts. I was just wondering if there was something I was missing about Howley?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s 2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era 3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No 4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige 5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If it were up to me, Kramer and Howley would be the next 2 senior candidates to get in, with Ken Anderson coming in third.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm with Andy on Kramer and Howley. IMO Anderson is in hall of very good.
Kramer exemplifies the whole idea of the Lombardi team spirit. He should have been in long ago.
It's a famous story ( I have heard Kramer describe itself in a FB show) about how one practice Lombardi went up one side of Kramer
and then back down yelling at him in front of everyone. In case people don't know Lombardi posted performance lists of all the players inc veterans so you knew where you stood on the team..
After the locker room had cleared out Kramer sat alone at the end of the bench. He said he was pondering his future as a FB player.
Lombardi came up to him and patted him on the shoulders and said, " one of these day's you'll be he best guard in FB."
Kramer said it all finally hit him. Why Lombardi was the way he was, why every play in practice was important.......
From that point on Kramer was the blood and guts of the team.
PUT HIM IN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree with Jason on being the SB MVP on a losing team takes away prestige. Yes I understand championships and being named MVP on a winning team is better than being on the losing team. However since the MVP is almost automatically named to a member of the winning team and to be named from the losing team means you have had to played beyond spectacular. IMO it adds prestige.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Originally posted by: jay0791 I'm with Andy on Kramer and Howley. IMO Anderson is in hall of very good.
Kramer exemplifies the whole idea of the Lombardi team spirit. He should have been in long ago.
It's a famous story ( I have heard Kramer describe itself in a FB show) about how one practice Lombardi went up one side of Kramer
and then back down yelling at him in front of everyone. In case people don't know Lombardi posted performance lists of all the players inc veterans so you knew where you stood on the team..
After the locker room had cleared out Kramer sat alone at the end of the bench. He said he was pondering his future as a FB player.
Lombardi came up to him and patted him on the shoulders and said, " one of these day's you'll be he best guard in FB."
Kramer said it all finally hit him. Why Lombardi was the way he was, why every play in practice was important.......
From that point on Kramer was the blood and guts of the team.
PUT HIM IN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree with Jason on being the SB MVP on a losing team takes away prestige. Yes I understand championships and being named MVP on a winning team is better than being on the losing team. However since the MVP is almost automatically named to a member of the winning team and to be named from the losing team means you have had to played beyond spectacular. IMO it adds prestige.
I agree on the Super Bowl MVP since it means his performance was believed to be that much better than anyone else that day. I also think it is an accomplishment that he is still the only player from a losing team to be given the award.
Kramer is another player who deserves to be in. At least he has been a candidate and even the media members from Talk of Fame have written a a few posts on him. It seems like he has fan and media support while Howley lacks a real push from the media (outside of a few members of the Senior Committee).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Originally posted by: JasP24 Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s 2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era 3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No 4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige 5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
Thanks for the info on his place with the senior committee and your post does provide some perspective on Howley and the LB position.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I'm with Andy on Kramer and Howley. IMO Anderson is in hall of very good.
I know you don't want to hear this as a Raiders fan, Jay, but Anderson was better than Stabler. And since they played in the same conference at the same time, there's no issues with comparing eras.
Stabler Games 184 Yards 27,938 TD 194 INT 222 (OMG) Comp % 59.8
Anderson Games 192 Yards 32,838 TD 197 INT 160 Comp % 59.3
I can't fault Anderson for playing on teams that were inferior to Stabler's Raiders. Hopefully Kenny will get the call at some point.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Originally posted by: JasP24 Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s 2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era 3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No 4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige 5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
Originally posted by: JasP24 Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s 2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era 3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No 4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige 5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
What about Lee Roy Jordan at middle LB?
I find it interesting that Jordan has been a HOF candidate (finalist in 1988) and Howley has some how not even been a finalist.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I disagree with Jason on being the SB MVP on a losing team takes away prestige. Yes I understand championships and being named MVP on a winning team is better than being on the losing team. However since the MVP is almost automatically named to a member of the winning team and to be named from the losing team means you have had to played beyond spectacular. IMO it adds prestige.
OR, there was no one on the winning team who had a stand out performance...Either way, the HOF history (or ack thereof) on Howley and his Super Bowl MVP clearly lends itself to the award not being enough to tip the scales for him yet.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ken Anderson is the top Senior candidate at QB and will remain that way for probably quite an extended period as Kurt Warner (the only recent modern QB nominee not yet in) WILL get in very shortly...
Personally, I do think he compares quite favorably to Stabler...For all the numbers Stabler didnt have Anderson did..For all the Flash and intangibles that Stabler had, lack of which is the only thing that has kept Anderson out...Not sure if/when Kenny Anderson gets in, but there isnt a QB more deserving in the Senior pool...
As far which seniors I think are most worthy at this given moment, here is my opinion, some of which is gleaned based on what I know of recent Senior committee meetings/discussions/votes:
Nobis is actually my personal favorite/most deserving LB (and no Im not a Falcons fan..lol)..Hes unfortunately lost ground the last 2-3 years after getting VERY close prior to that...That being said, I do believe Gradishar will be the next LB from the seniors pool.
Same for Kuchenberg...Seems like his support has waned the past couple of years. I wouldnt put him over Kramer at OL either way, but he was VERY close in his final modern years of eligibility so that may be hurting his odds as the committee assumes he doesnt have the support of the current group of voters.
Eddie Meador is one who has really come on the past 5-6 years after not ever being in the top 15 seniors for many years....Seems like as more on the committee learn more of his career he's candidacy has grown...He's one of those wildcards who will shock some folks if/when he gets selected.
As far as Kramer and Howley go, I explained the case against Howley above...Will he ever get in? I still think he probably will. Even with the seniors putting in a nice group of LBs over the years still stuck with a glut of worthy candidates at the position...Gradishar, Howley, Nobis, Mike Curtis, Maxie Baughan, LeeRoy Jordan, Robert Brazile, Andy Russell...I believe these guys are mostly splitting votes and its hard to say which will and wont get in..Certainly no more than HALF of these listed will ever see the HOF at MOST.
Kramer is a case of self-fulfilling prophecy...Hes the unforgotten, purposely overlooked because hes the "easy annual snub" guy. I dont know what its going to take to get him in short of a complete overhaul of the senior committee system...Hes gotten pushes, hes gotten player support, voter support, hes had every possible reason to be elected yet every year they decide on someone else...Its a shame he wasn't in as a modern candidate like he deserved...Many of the Packers already IN the HOF should have gone in AFTER Kramer...Just one of those head scratchers you will never quite understand....
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Bump for Easely's nomination by the senior committee.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Nice to see Kenny Easley selected as this years Senior candidate...Long overdue in getting his story told to the voters..I wouldn't call him a lock inductee with only 89 career games under his belt...Its the reason he's been overlooked..The closest players from the 80s era in fewest games played are Dwight Stephenson(114) and Kellen Winslow(107)...If he gets in bodes well for Terrell Davis and Tony Boselli's odds.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Got a survey monkey for JJ Watt to be added to Future HOF set. I voted no because there was no discussion here and I think it is still too soon for him. This was before the news of his injury. In any event, he's clearly off to a brilliant start, but needs several more years of great performance before he is HOF worthy IMO. Thoughts?
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I voted yes. What he has accomplished in such a short career is amazing. There are players in the Hall of Fame who lack his resume and production. He is also the most dominant 3-4 End in NFL history based on his yearly stats and awards.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I have not responded yet to the survey, but I am leaning toward no at this point. For reasons stated above....just not enough games played yet...regardless of accolades. Its just too soon.
Watt has played 83 games in his career..Since 1960 only ONE PLAYER with less than 100 games played is in the HOF...And that is Gale Sayers...
For defensive players here are the fewest games played of players who retired 1960-present to make the HOF
Les Richter-112 games (made it only as a Senior candidate) Dick Butkus- 119 games LeeRoy Selmon-121 games
So to place J.J. Watt on a future HOF set, that is supposed to be only for players who are LIKELY to be elected would be a stretch..And thats putting it lightly...With his back injury, now out for the season, if somehow he never plays again, will he even be a HOF candidate? I think so, but he would be a long shot towards election with only 83 games...I base that on the factual history of HOF elections as posted here.
As great as Terrell Davis was in his prime, MVPs, Super Bowl Rings, 2,000 yards, etc..He's STILL not in..Why? Lack of games played at only 78..Kenny Easley, this years Senior Candidate and member of a Team of the Decade 1st team played 88 games..If these guys can get in, maybe he can open the door for guys with less than 100 games...But for now, it just isn't the case.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Are Anquan Boldin and Steve Smith HOFers? Some stats from Wiki:
Boldin Super Bowl champion (XLVII) 3× Pro Bowl (2003, 2006, 2008) AP NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year (2003) PFWA Offensive Rookie of the Year (2003) "Whizzer" White NFL Man of the Year (2014) Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year (2015) San Francisco 49ers Team MVP (2013) 1,000 Catch Club 10,000 Receiving Yards Club
Currently 16th all time receiving yards Currently 12th all time in receptions Currently 29th (tied) in touchdowns
He could easily crack the top 10 in a couple of these categories with a couple decent seasons.
Smith Sr. 5× Pro Bowl (2001, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2011) 2× First-team All-Pro (2001, 2005) Second-team All-Pro (2008) NFL receiving yards leader (2005) NFL receiving touchdowns leader (2005) NFL Comeback Player of the Year (2005)
Currently 10th all time receiving yards Currently 15th all time in receptions Currently 29th (tie) in touchdowns
Steve Smith would likely rank as semifinalists with maybe 25-30% HOF odds, Similar to Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt among currently eligible WRs.
Boldin I wouldn't think able to crack the top 25 semifinalists and falling into that Jimmy Smith, Chad Johnson category as 10% longshots to make the HOF.
I think whats important as it relates to your all-time rankings..Its not where they are when they retire, its where they are when they become HOF eligible 5 years later.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
This isn't a HOF question but I know many of the members collect the Key Card sets as well and I was wondering what product might be chosen now that Topps Chrome is not an option. I have discussed this with a few other collectors and Prizm seems to be the most popular option. I was curious if any other collectors had opinions or thoughts on this?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I guess Prizm is the way to, I am really clueless. I collect primarily baseball (Heritage) for new product now that Topps is out of the football game. I am not a fan of Panini. I am primarily just finishing player sets now from the 70s and 80s and abandoning most of my rookie projects.
It should be the most valuable card of the player that meets whatever PSA decides is the criteria at the time...If you are talking 2016 card sets, I guess buy everything that meets the current criteria for the set and hope you found the most valuable whenever the player/card is voted on to the set...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Morten Anderson, kicker (New Orleans Saints, 1982-1994; Atlanta Falcons, 1995-2000; 2006-07; New York Giants, 2001; Kansas City Chiefs, 2002-03; Minnesota Vikings, 2004)
Steve Atwater, safety (Denver Broncos, 1989-1998; New York Jets, 1999)
Tony Boselli, offensive tackle (Jacksonville Jaguars, 1995-2001; Houston Texans, 2002)
Isaac Bruce, wide receiver (Los Angeles Rams, 1994; St. Louis Rams, 1995-2007; San Francisco 49ers, 2008-09)
Don Coryell, coach (St. Louis Cardinals, 1973-77; San Diego Chargers, 1978-1986)
Roger Craig, running back (San Francisco 49ers, 1983-1990; Los Angeles Raiders, 1991; Minnesota Vikings, 1992-93)
Terrell Davis, running back (Denver Broncos, 1995-2001)
Brian Dawkins, safety (Philadelphia Eagles, 1996-2008; Denver Broncos, 2009-2011)
Alan Faneca, guard (Pittsburgh Steelers, 1998-2007; New York Jets, 2008-09; Arizona Cardinals, 2010)
Chris Hinton, offensive tackle/guard (Baltimore Colts, 1983; Indianapolis Colts, 1984-89; Atlanta Falcons, 1990-93; Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95)
Nothing too significant in this years semifinals, although we did get an extra 26th guy. Only player falling out from last years semifinalist was Sam Mills along with of course the 5 who were inducted last year. New adds include the 4 first ballot guys, Tomlinson, Dawkins, Taylor and Ward...We also added Chris Hinton for the first time after many years of eligibility. We also re-added Darren Woodson who was a semifinalist 2 classes ago, but fell off last year. As well as Clay Matthews who was a semifinalist from 2012. Everyone one copied directly over from last year.
So how does that affect this years HOF class? First have to look at the 4 first ballot players and which have good chance at induction in their first try.
Tomlinson looks to be the best chance of a first ballot inductee. While not a 100% lock to make it his first try, the fact that he is the top new candidate should help push him to the top of the list. IMO, the only way he doesn't get in is if the voters decide to finally push Terrell Davis in after making the top 10 last year. Its unlikely simply because the other top 10 vote gettors last season are probably ahead of him.
Tops on the list of returning Top 10 Finalists are Kurt Warner and John Lynch...With Favre in, Warner's path should be pretty smooth this time around. He's made the cut to 10 twice and can't imagine that would happen a 3rd time to a Super Bowl MVP QB. John Lynch sits at the top of what has started to become a backlog at Safety..Expecially considering Polamalu and Ed Reed will be in the mix soon. Lynch should have the votes as the top defensive player in this years class.
The 4th HOFer on my list this year is Terrell Owens. TO received his punishment last year for his antics, and I think he will get in fairly easily this time around. I'd but his odds this year around 75%-80%...He is clearly the top WR, but could get bumped similar to last year if the voters stick with Joe Jacoby and Don Coryell.
The final HOF slot this year looks like a toss up. As mentioned above, Terrell Davis, Jacoby and Coryell all made the top 10. Very unlikely that Tomlinson and Davis go in together. Jacoby or Coryell could be the 5th selection, and personally I'd put my money on Coryell to make it a San Diego Charger heavy class with LT. Jacoby's final year of eligibility is 2018, so his odds would seem to be headed towards that class.
Others with a realistic shot?
Alan Feneca- Would have to leapfrog Jacoby which is questionable
Brain Dawkins- only if he is able to leapfrog Lynch which is doubtful
Jimmy Johnson-has to leapfrog Coryell, which is very possible as Johnson was a Finalist with Coryell in 2014, but last year Coryell took a strong lead in the votes between them as the top Coach
Morten Andersen-Wildcard in the case voters split votes between some of the guys listed above
Not really anyone else I can forsee making it from the modern semifinalist.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Looks like Watt made the set..Terrible precedent set, I sure hope he comes back his full power dominant self...The risks of this addition to the set:
1-If he never plays gain, he's a longshot for the HOF
2-If he comes back but is a shell of his former self and plays 3-4 average to below average seasons, he becomes a tough sell for the HOF with less than 100 sacks on his resume.
If Watt is on, may as well add Navorro Bowman to the set as well..Rob Gronkowski, Luke Kuechly, Patrick Peterson and Richard Sherman..All equally pre-mature as Watt, but all similarly qualified resumes.
IMO these adds now make logic sense now that the bar has been lowered with Watt.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If I still had this set I would have voted Watt in. Four first team all pros, three time Defensive Player of the year. Regardless if he does not take another snap he will get in on his pure dominance in his four year run Also his community work and attitude with the fans. If a player ever deserved to be in the HOF it is Watt.
Watt would be an interesting case for sure if he retired today...Is 4 dominant seasons all it takes? Would be far from a first ballot lock IMO...It's why they have the 5 year wait before voting.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Watt would be an interesting case for sure if he retired today...Is 4 dominant seasons all it takes? Would be far from a first ballot lock IMO...It's why they have the 5 year wait before voting.
@JasP24 said:
Watt would be an interesting case for sure if he retired today...Is 4 dominant seasons all it takes? Would be far from a first ballot lock IMO...It's why they have the 5 year wait before voting.
It is all it took for Earl Campbell.
Actually Campbell had 5 dominant seasons, and a 6th good season (strike shortened 1982) and played in 115 games...
Watt has played in 83 games, 4 dominant seasons and a 5th good season (his rookie year) and has played in 83 games...
Might sound like a small difference, but if you study who has been voted into the HOF to this point in history and who hasn't, its a defined difference. Nice try, but sorry...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
For defensive players here are the fewest games played of players who retired 1960-present to make the HOF
Les Richter-112 games (made it only as a Senior candidate)
Dick Butkus- 119 games
LeeRoy Selmon-121 games
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Watt would be an interesting case for sure if he retired today...Is 4 dominant seasons all it takes? Would be far from a first ballot lock IMO...It's why they have the 5 year wait before voting.
It is all it took for Earl Campbell.
Actually Campbell had 5 dominant seasons, and a 6th good season (strike shortened 1982) and played in 115 games...
Watt has played in 83 games, 4 dominant seasons and a 5th good season (his rookie year) and has played in 83 games...
Might sound like a small difference, but if you study who has been voted into the HOF to this point in history and who hasn't, its a defined difference. Nice try, but sorry...
I love Earl but 3.8 and 4.0 average yards per carry is not dominant. His first 3 years were dominant, some of the best ever. 1981 3.8 yards an attempt 1982 3.4 yards an attempt, 1983 4.0 yards an attempt. I said 4 years but he had truly 3 years as dominant. Watt has been the best at his position and on defense each of those 3-4 years. Payton was just as good or better than Earl. Once again I love Earl. No doubt HOFer.
Comments
Me included except for some dumb reason I have stayed loyal to the Raiders.
Seems like the NFL teams keep switching one fired coach for another....so I am sure Mr. Coughlin is not done.
He did break a cardinal rule: don't cry over your last girlfriend on the first date.
looking at coaches and what it might take to make the HOF as a coach.
Let's eliminate the older era coaches like Chamberlain.
Also toss out the true giants of coaching: Lombardi, Walsh, P Brown and Noll (4 SB-yes he had a ton of HOFers).
Bill B is not yet in but a true lock.
Coughlin has similar stats to: Landry, Shula, Stram and Parcells who are in the HOF.
Similar also to: J Johnson, Seifert and Shanahan (please no way) who are not in the HOF.
He is superior (IMO) to G Allen who has a high .712 WP but no team titles.
Dungy is now in with 1 SB, 6 DC and a decent win % of .668 Obviously padded with HOF players
in Manning, Faulk and Harrison but also reduced by inheriting a bad Tamp Bay team.
Coughlin is a true teacher and mentor almost like a fatherly figure much in similarity to Lombardi.
No conclusions....just food for thought
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
As a long time Giants fan, and as an ex-photographer for a website that covered the Giants, I'm of the opinion Tom Coughlin is over rated and is not an HOFer.
I would certainly take that bet...1st Ballot? Probably not, but no doubt Coughlin will get into the HOF pretty quickly was his resume...Hard to be over-rated with 180+ wins and 2 rings..Not to mention what he did with an expansion franchise.
Maybe he was in NY simply due to the amount of media coverage, but would think he would stack up very favorably to any other Coaches eligible or who will become eligible in the next 10 years...Aside from Belichick of course, but he's probably still coaching 5+ years from now..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree on coughlin being out and don't think megatron gets in either. Peyton and Woodson should. What about Jared Allen? And wasn't there another big retirement recently that I'm forgetting about?
Logan Mankins and Marshawn Lynch the other significant retirements post 2015 season. All of these guys will get some play in the HOF conversation...
Peyton and Woodson are the obvious first ballot guys...
I think Coughlin is probably 3rd in line and will get in within his first few years of eligibility (similar to Dungy's path)..Of course, that is if he actual doesnt end of coaching again as it sounds like he will anyway...
I'd rank Jared Allen 4th...Its going to be important how deep he gets in his first year..He will almost surely be a top 25 semifinalist, if he can crack the top 15 and become a finalist in his 1st year, then that will increase his odds to near 100%, although he probably waits 5-6-7 years or so...
Calvin, Mankins and Lynch are all less than 50% odds IMO...All COULD at some point get in, but if I'm making those bets now, would say no to all 3. Again, will get a good idea based on if they make the top 25 or top 15 in year 1. Its typically a very strong indicator. I think all 3 have a fairly solid chance at top 25 their first year eligible..Simply because come 2021, the voters will have "cleaned up" many of the modern guys who have/had been waiting awhile...Same time, others who have made the semi's but likely will never make top 15 or the HOF will run out of eligibility.
If any of them miss the top 25 in year one or even year two, I'd mostly cross them off the HOF list unless some type of voting rule change takes place that increases their odds (like even bigger classes).
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree on coughlin being out and don't think megatron gets in either. Peyton and Woodson should. What about Jared Allen? And wasn't there another big retirement recently that I'm forgetting about?
Reggie Wayne
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As a long time Giants fan, and as an ex-photographer for a website that covered the Giants, I'm of the opinion Tom Coughlin is over rated and is not an HOFer.
I would certainly take that bet...1st Ballot? Probably not, but no doubt Coughlin will get into the HOF pretty quickly was his resume...Hard to be over-rated with 180+ wins and 2 rings..Not to mention what he did with an expansion franchise.
Maybe he was in NY simply due to the amount of media coverage, but would think he would stack up very favorably to any other Coaches eligible or who will become eligible in the next 10 years...Aside from Belichick of course, but he's probably still coaching 5+ years from now..
Haven't had a chance to post for 2 weeks, but I just wanted to add a little more to the Coughlin discussion. I'm not saying he wasn't a good coach. I'm just saying he falls a notch below the HOF. Just my opinion. I've seen too many team meltdowns when critical games were on the line. Ironically he was on the hot seat both years when he took 9-7 teams to the Super Bowl. He was that close to being fired. Yes he had 180 wins, but his winning percentage was only 53%. Sure blame some of that on coaching an expansion team, but his records with the Jags and Giants were almost identical. I find it hard to believe his record was similar to Landry and Shula. Finally, he was given an ultimatum by the Giant ownership to "lighten up" or he'd be gone, as there was an ongoing player rebellion led by among others Michael Strahan. Again, just my opinion.
As far as Landry or Shula, he doesn't have to be that level to be in the HOF...There are 23 Coaches in the HOF...With Don Coryell and Jimmy Johnson also fairly close that last few years. Would certainly put Coughlin behind Belichick..Would also put Coughlin firmly in the top 25 coaches of all-time.
Lets look at the HOF eligible coaches with 2 Super Bowls who are NOT in the HOF...
George Seifert 124-67 career record w/playoffs
Tom Flores 105-90 career record (playoffs included)
Jimmy Johnson 89-67 career record- 2015 HOF Finalist
Now lets look at HOF eligible coaches with 180+ wins who aren't in the HOF.
Dan Reeves Four Super Bowl appearances, ZERO wins
Marty Schottenheimer ZERO SB wins or appearances
Chuck Knox ZERO SB wins or apperances
These are the reasons Coughlin will be a HOFer...Probably not first ballot, but will be elected, my guess within 3-5 years of eligibility.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
All very good points, and I'm sure each of them will be explored in depth when it comes to his candidacy...Most likely will keep him from being first ballot...
As far as Landry or Shula, he doesn't have to be that level to be in the HOF...There are 23 Coaches in the HOF...With Don Coryell and Jimmy Johnson also fairly close that last few years. Would certainly put Coughlin behind Belichick..Would also put Coughlin firmly in the top 25 coaches of all-time.
Lets look at the HOF eligible coaches with 2 Super Bowls who are NOT in the HOF...
George Seifert 124-67 career record w/playoffs
Tom Flores 105-90 career record (playoffs included)
Jimmy Johnson 89-67 career record- 2015 HOF Finalist
Now lets look at HOF eligible coaches with 180+ wins who aren't in the HOF.
Dan Reeves Four Super Bowl appearances, ZERO wins
Marty Schottenheimer ZERO SB wins or appearances
Chuck Knox ZERO SB wins or apperances
These are the reasons Coughlin will be a HOFer...Probably not first ballot, but will be elected, my guess within 3-5 years of eligibility.[/q
That was the most well planned out case for Coughlin I've seen yet.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s
2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era
3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No
4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige
5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Kramer exemplifies the whole idea of the Lombardi team spirit. He should have been in long ago.
It's a famous story ( I have heard Kramer describe itself in a FB show) about how one practice Lombardi went up one side of Kramer
and then back down yelling at him in front of everyone. In case people don't know Lombardi posted performance lists of all the players inc veterans so you knew where you stood on the team..
After the locker room had cleared out Kramer sat alone at the end of the bench. He said he was pondering his future as a FB player.
Lombardi came up to him and patted him on the shoulders and said, " one of these day's you'll be he best guard in FB."
Kramer said it all finally hit him. Why Lombardi was the way he was, why every play in practice was important.......
From that point on Kramer was the blood and guts of the team.
PUT HIM IN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree with Jason on being the SB MVP on a losing team takes away prestige. Yes I understand championships and being named MVP on a winning team is better than being on the losing team. However since the MVP is almost automatically named to a member of the winning team and to be named from the losing team means you have had to played beyond spectacular. IMO it adds prestige.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I'm with Andy on Kramer and Howley. IMO Anderson is in hall of very good.
Kramer exemplifies the whole idea of the Lombardi team spirit. He should have been in long ago.
It's a famous story ( I have heard Kramer describe itself in a FB show) about how one practice Lombardi went up one side of Kramer
and then back down yelling at him in front of everyone. In case people don't know Lombardi posted performance lists of all the players inc veterans so you knew where you stood on the team..
After the locker room had cleared out Kramer sat alone at the end of the bench. He said he was pondering his future as a FB player.
Lombardi came up to him and patted him on the shoulders and said, " one of these day's you'll be he best guard in FB."
Kramer said it all finally hit him. Why Lombardi was the way he was, why every play in practice was important.......
From that point on Kramer was the blood and guts of the team.
PUT HIM IN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree with Jason on being the SB MVP on a losing team takes away prestige. Yes I understand championships and being named MVP on a winning team is better than being on the losing team. However since the MVP is almost automatically named to a member of the winning team and to be named from the losing team means you have had to played beyond spectacular. IMO it adds prestige.
I agree on the Super Bowl MVP since it means his performance was believed to be that much better than anyone else that day. I also think it is an accomplishment that he is still the only player from a losing team to be given the award.
Kramer is another player who deserves to be in. At least he has been a candidate and even the media members from Talk of Fame have written a a few posts on him. It seems like he has fan and media support while Howley lacks a real push from the media (outside of a few members of the Senior Committee).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s
2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era
3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No
4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige
5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
Thanks for the info on his place with the senior committee and your post does provide some perspective on Howley and the LB position.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I know you don't want to hear this as a Raiders fan, Jay, but Anderson was better than Stabler. And since they played in the same conference at the same time, there's no issues with comparing eras.
Stabler
Games 184
Yards 27,938
TD 194
INT 222 (OMG)
Comp % 59.8
Anderson
Games 192
Yards 32,838
TD 197
INT 160
Comp % 59.3
I can't fault Anderson for playing on teams that were inferior to Stabler's Raiders. Hopefully Kenny will get the call at some point.
For years and many threads ago......I never claimed I thought Stabler was a HOFer.
Au Contraire: I said I didn't think he was HOF worthy.
I was a strong advocate of Ray Guy.
Stabler declined badly after 1980 and his New Orleans and Houston days were horrible.
Those years drag his career numbers down big time. Anderson was more consistent.
Stabler in 74 and Anderson in 81 had great years. But both didn't do it good enough for long enough to be in the HOF.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s
2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era
3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No
4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige
5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
What about Lee Roy Jordan at middle LB?
Howley has actually had quite a bit of support over the past 10 years from the Senior Committee...Consistently within the final 15 Seniors and occasionally in the final 5. That being said, during his modern era eligibility LB's from his era typically didnt warrant much attention aside from the bona fide star like Dick Butkus. This is why guys like Dave Robinson and Chris Hanburger only recently got elected. Howley falls in that category, along with Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan and Mike Curtis...All very good LBs from the same era, any of which could have just as easily selected in front of Robinson or Hanburger...
Looking forward, I believe he will eventually be elected. Not sure that he will be the next LB from the Senior Pool however, and being that they have selected 3 LBs recently (Robinson, Hanburger plus Les Richter who was more so a 50s era player) Its tough to say when the next one will come along...
Howley, Curtis, Baughan, as well as Gradishar and Robert Brazile from the 70s have gotten some support among the senior committee...Any of these guys could equally be the next LB from the Senior pool.
To answer your question, I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but here is what I see:
1- LBs, especially OLB types didnt garner much respect from HOF voters during the 80s/90s
2- Howley wasn't substantially better or more well known than many others of his era
3- Yes, he has 5 1st Team All-Pro selection, but if you combined AFL and NFL selections from the 1960s with as many competitors at his position as today, would he have had as many? No
4- Yes, Super Bowl MVP is a big feather in the cap, but receiving it while LOSING the game does take away some of its prestige
5- He has received quite a bit of support from the Senior committee, but rightly (IMO) wasn't chosen ahead of Chris Hanburger, and maybe should have been picked over Robinson, but Robinson's overall grading curve was different because he played for the Team of The Decade with many Championships to his name
What about Lee Roy Jordan at middle LB?
I find it interesting that Jordan has been a HOF candidate (finalist in 1988) and Howley has some how not even been a finalist.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I disagree with Jason on being the SB MVP on a losing team takes away prestige. Yes I understand championships and being named MVP on a winning team is better than being on the losing team. However since the MVP is almost automatically named to a member of the winning team and to be named from the losing team means you have had to played beyond spectacular. IMO it adds prestige.
OR, there was no one on the winning team who had a stand out performance...Either way, the HOF history (or ack thereof) on Howley and his Super Bowl MVP clearly lends itself to the award not being enough to tip the scales for him yet.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Personally, I do think he compares quite favorably to Stabler...For all the numbers Stabler didnt have Anderson did..For all the Flash and intangibles that Stabler had, lack of which is the only thing that has kept Anderson out...Not sure if/when Kenny Anderson gets in, but there isnt a QB more deserving in the Senior pool...
As far which seniors I think are most worthy at this given moment, here is my opinion, some of which is gleaned based on what I know of recent Senior committee meetings/discussions/votes:
1-Jerry Kramer
2-Randy Gradishar
3-LC Greenwood
4-Eddie Meador
5-Chuck Howley
Nobis is actually my personal favorite/most deserving LB (and no Im not a Falcons fan..lol)..Hes unfortunately lost ground the last 2-3 years after getting VERY close prior to that...That being said, I do believe Gradishar will be the next LB from the seniors pool.
Same for Kuchenberg...Seems like his support has waned the past couple of years. I wouldnt put him over Kramer at OL either way, but he was VERY close in his final modern years of eligibility so that may be hurting his odds as the committee assumes he doesnt have the support of the current group of voters.
Eddie Meador is one who has really come on the past 5-6 years after not ever being in the top 15 seniors for many years....Seems like as more on the committee learn more of his career he's candidacy has grown...He's one of those wildcards who will shock some folks if/when he gets selected.
As far as Kramer and Howley go, I explained the case against Howley above...Will he ever get in? I still think he probably will. Even with the seniors putting in a nice group of LBs over the years still stuck with a glut of worthy candidates at the position...Gradishar, Howley, Nobis, Mike Curtis, Maxie Baughan, LeeRoy Jordan, Robert Brazile, Andy Russell...I believe these guys are mostly splitting votes and its hard to say which will and wont get in..Certainly no more than HALF of these listed will ever see the HOF at MOST.
Kramer is a case of self-fulfilling prophecy...Hes the unforgotten, purposely overlooked because hes the "easy annual snub" guy. I dont know what its going to take to get him in short of a complete overhaul of the senior committee system...Hes gotten pushes, hes gotten player support, voter support, hes had every possible reason to be elected yet every year they decide on someone else...Its a shame he wasn't in as a modern candidate like he deserved...Many of the Packers already IN the HOF should have gone in AFTER Kramer...Just one of those head scratchers you will never quite understand....
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
This and every other survey that asks about a player with only a few years in....great or not.
My criteria: if a player were to end his career at the time of his survey....is he most likely a HOFer?
I am in favor of a set years rule. 10 years in baseball. 8 years for FB before a player is eligible for these sets.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
For defensive players here are the fewest games played of players who retired 1960-present to make the HOF
Les Richter-112 games (made it only as a Senior candidate)
Dick Butkus- 119 games
LeeRoy Selmon-121 games
So to place J.J. Watt on a future HOF set, that is supposed to be only for players who are LIKELY to be elected would be a stretch..And thats putting it lightly...With his back injury, now out for the season, if somehow he never plays again, will he even be a HOF candidate? I think so, but he would be a long shot towards election with only 83 games...I base that on the factual history of HOF elections as posted here.
As great as Terrell Davis was in his prime, MVPs, Super Bowl Rings, 2,000 yards, etc..He's STILL not in..Why? Lack of games played at only 78..Kenny Easley, this years Senior Candidate and member of a Team of the Decade 1st team played 88 games..If these guys can get in, maybe he can open the door for guys with less than 100 games...But for now, it just isn't the case.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Boldin
Super Bowl champion (XLVII)
3× Pro Bowl (2003, 2006, 2008)
AP NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year (2003)
PFWA Offensive Rookie of the Year (2003)
"Whizzer" White NFL Man of the Year (2014)
Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year (2015)
San Francisco 49ers Team MVP (2013)
1,000 Catch Club
10,000 Receiving Yards Club
Currently 16th all time receiving yards
Currently 12th all time in receptions
Currently 29th (tied) in touchdowns
He could easily crack the top 10 in a couple of these categories with a couple decent seasons.
Smith Sr.
5× Pro Bowl (2001, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2011)
2× First-team All-Pro (2001, 2005)
Second-team All-Pro (2008)
NFL receiving yards leader (2005)
NFL receiving touchdowns leader (2005)
NFL Comeback Player of the Year (2005)
Currently 10th all time receiving yards
Currently 15th all time in receptions
Currently 29th (tie) in touchdowns
Also has notable stats as a returner
Steve Smith would likely rank as semifinalists with maybe 25-30% HOF odds, Similar to Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt among currently eligible WRs.
Boldin I wouldn't think able to crack the top 25 semifinalists and falling into that Jimmy Smith, Chad Johnson category as 10% longshots to make the HOF.
I think whats important as it relates to your all-time rankings..Its not where they are when they retire, its where they are when they become HOF eligible 5 years later.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Voted no on Watts.
I disagree, Steve Smith eventually gets in.
This isn't a HOF question but I know many of the members collect the Key Card sets as well and I was wondering what product might be chosen now that Topps Chrome is not an option. I have discussed this with a few other collectors and Prizm seems to be the most popular option. I was curious if any other collectors had opinions or thoughts on this?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I guess Prizm is the way to, I am really clueless. I collect primarily baseball (Heritage) for new product now that Topps is out of the football game. I am not a fan of Panini. I am primarily just finishing player sets now from the 70s and 80s and abandoning most of my rookie projects.
It should be the most valuable card of the player that meets whatever PSA decides is the criteria at the time...If you are talking 2016 card sets, I guess buy everything that meets the current criteria for the set and hope you found the most valuable whenever the player/card is voted on to the set...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
there is no topps chrome FB for this year ???
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
http://www.beckett.com/news/breaking-panini-to-have-full-nfl-football-card-exclusive-starting-in-2016/
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sucks for the hobby - agree above, not a Panini fan.
25 semi finalists released tonight.
My predictions:
Tomlinson
Owens
Warner
Faneca
Anderson
Easley (Senior)
Tagliabue (Contributor)
Thoughts?
Nothing too significant in this years semifinals, although we did get an extra 26th guy. Only player falling out from last years semifinalist was Sam Mills along with of course the 5 who were inducted last year. New adds include the 4 first ballot guys, Tomlinson, Dawkins, Taylor and Ward...We also added Chris Hinton for the first time after many years of eligibility. We also re-added Darren Woodson who was a semifinalist 2 classes ago, but fell off last year. As well as Clay Matthews who was a semifinalist from 2012. Everyone one copied directly over from last year.
So how does that affect this years HOF class? First have to look at the 4 first ballot players and which have good chance at induction in their first try.
Tomlinson looks to be the best chance of a first ballot inductee. While not a 100% lock to make it his first try, the fact that he is the top new candidate should help push him to the top of the list. IMO, the only way he doesn't get in is if the voters decide to finally push Terrell Davis in after making the top 10 last year. Its unlikely simply because the other top 10 vote gettors last season are probably ahead of him.
Tops on the list of returning Top 10 Finalists are Kurt Warner and John Lynch...With Favre in, Warner's path should be pretty smooth this time around. He's made the cut to 10 twice and can't imagine that would happen a 3rd time to a Super Bowl MVP QB. John Lynch sits at the top of what has started to become a backlog at Safety..Expecially considering Polamalu and Ed Reed will be in the mix soon. Lynch should have the votes as the top defensive player in this years class.
The 4th HOFer on my list this year is Terrell Owens. TO received his punishment last year for his antics, and I think he will get in fairly easily this time around. I'd but his odds this year around 75%-80%...He is clearly the top WR, but could get bumped similar to last year if the voters stick with Joe Jacoby and Don Coryell.
The final HOF slot this year looks like a toss up. As mentioned above, Terrell Davis, Jacoby and Coryell all made the top 10. Very unlikely that Tomlinson and Davis go in together. Jacoby or Coryell could be the 5th selection, and personally I'd put my money on Coryell to make it a San Diego Charger heavy class with LT. Jacoby's final year of eligibility is 2018, so his odds would seem to be headed towards that class.
Others with a realistic shot?
Alan Feneca- Would have to leapfrog Jacoby which is questionable
Brain Dawkins- only if he is able to leapfrog Lynch which is doubtful
Jimmy Johnson-has to leapfrog Coryell, which is very possible as Johnson was a Finalist with Coryell in 2014, but last year Coryell took a strong lead in the votes between them as the top Coach
Morten Andersen-Wildcard in the case voters split votes between some of the guys listed above
Not really anyone else I can forsee making it from the modern semifinalist.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Looks like Watt made the set..Terrible precedent set, I sure hope he comes back his full power dominant self...The risks of this addition to the set:
1-If he never plays gain, he's a longshot for the HOF
2-If he comes back but is a shell of his former self and plays 3-4 average to below average seasons, he becomes a tough sell for the HOF with less than 100 sacks on his resume.
If Watt is on, may as well add Navorro Bowman to the set as well..Rob Gronkowski, Luke Kuechly, Patrick Peterson and Richard Sherman..All equally pre-mature as Watt, but all similarly qualified resumes.
IMO these adds now make logic sense now that the bar has been lowered with Watt.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
WE need to add Ezekial Elliott to the all time rushers set. He almost has a full year in.
ORPY for sure.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
If I still had this set I would have voted Watt in. Four first team all pros, three time Defensive Player of the year. Regardless if he does not take another snap he will get in on his pure dominance in his four year run Also his community work and attitude with the fans. If a player ever deserved to be in the HOF it is Watt.
Watt would be an interesting case for sure if he retired today...Is 4 dominant seasons all it takes? Would be far from a first ballot lock IMO...It's why they have the 5 year wait before voting.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It is all it took for Earl Campbell.
Actually Campbell had 5 dominant seasons, and a 6th good season (strike shortened 1982) and played in 115 games...
Watt has played in 83 games, 4 dominant seasons and a 5th good season (his rookie year) and has played in 83 games...
Might sound like a small difference, but if you study who has been voted into the HOF to this point in history and who hasn't, its a defined difference. Nice try, but sorry...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
For defensive players here are the fewest games played of players who retired 1960-present to make the HOF
Les Richter-112 games (made it only as a Senior candidate)
Dick Butkus- 119 games
LeeRoy Selmon-121 games
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I love Earl but 3.8 and 4.0 average yards per carry is not dominant. His first 3 years were dominant, some of the best ever. 1981 3.8 yards an attempt 1982 3.4 yards an attempt, 1983 4.0 yards an attempt. I said 4 years but he had truly 3 years as dominant. Watt has been the best at his position and on defense each of those 3-4 years. Payton was just as good or better than Earl. Once again I love Earl. No doubt HOFer.