Ward's per game averages and lack of regular season accolades only thing that keeps him lower on my list. Could buy him and Holt above the two Johnson's...
Calvin with the 3 first team all-pros and likely Team of Decade inclusion puts him up my list. Retiring a bit early no longer a hindrance to his HOF odds due to his being widely considered the top WR in the NFL for his stretch.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Frank Gore's career started in 2005..Since 2005, he has received a GRAND TOTAL of 14 All-Pro votes at RB TOTAL..All-Pro votes measure DOMINANCE at a position in any given single season.
Here are the RBs with more All-Pro votes than Gore during his career (2005-2016):
Adrian Peterson, Minnesota, 184
LaDainian Tomlinson, S.D., 103
Jamaal Charles, Kansas City, 87
LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 78
Le'Veon Bell, Pittsburgh, 62
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 51
Arian Foster, Houston, 51
Chris Johnson, Tennesee, 50
Shaun Alexander, Seattle, 49
DeMarco Murray, Dallas, 48
Tiki Barber, NY Giants, 47
Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas, 47
Michael Turner, Atl, 40
Doug Martin, Tampa Bay, 37
Ray Rice, Baltimore, 36
Brian Westbrook, Philadelphia 33
Marshawn Lynch, Seattle, 32
Larry Johnson, Kansas City, 26
Steven Jackson, St. Louis, 17
Frank Gore-----14-------------------------------------
I would contend that All Pro votes are a measure of perceived dominance by sports writers who possibly have biases, might be under informed, and value their personal opinion over any other source of information. The voting system is pretty good but not perfect. We also have to remember there are only two first team spots every year so a few talented players get bypassed, and that happens at every position.
Many of the players listed had better seasons but based on the numbers Gore's overall career has been superior to most of them,
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
Thats a great point...Its going to be interesting to see how opinions of RBs change along with opinions of WRs...We've already seen how WRs who retired with monster numbers aren't even getting considered now...Will the lessening of the RB position be handled similarly?
I think whats important to note, particularly with how the voters make determinations, is that there are specifically different categories of HOFers...It was spelled out this year perhaps better than any other...Dominant players like Terrell Davis, Easley, Tony Boselli...All with less than 100 games, but who were considered dominant at their positions during their short(er) careers are now not only getting HOF consideration, but are being elected ahead of less dominant players who either accumulated more games or bigger numbers over extended careers...
So the question moving ahead for me becomes this...For borderline HOF guys, is it going to now hurt a players odds to have an extended career? Joe Jacoby is a great example...
If Joe Jacoby had retired after the 1988 season...He would have had 110 games played over 8 seasons...4 Pro Bowls and 2 First Team All-Pro selections, along with 2 Super Bowl titles...Would he be viewed as more dominant with this resume? Rather than having the same resume, add 1 Super Bowl, along with 60 more games, many of which he was not playing at the same high standard as his early career...
If Tony Boselli had continued his career for another 5-6 years, but not played as dominantly as he did pre-injury..Would he still be viewed in the same light that enabled him to jump Jacoby this year and make the cut to top 10? Going to be something that bears watching...
Last note on O.J. Anderson...While he was a solid back when he played for the Giants, he was not considered a dominant player at that point in his career...I think if the voters focused more on his time playing for the Cardinals, and watched a little more of that film, he would get more HOF support. He was well on his way to the HOF after his first 5-6 years or so...But I think the voters mostly remember Super Bowl MVP Anderson, who was a shell of the RB he had been early is his career and unfortunately thats how he is being remembered...The Cardinals OJ Anderson was HOF quality player.
Agree again on OJ.Anderson. Parcells used to kid him that he went from a gazelle to an old man plow horse. But the fact he could adapt his style and still rush for a 1000 yards while stepping in for an inured Joe Morris and lead the way to a SB should be considered a good thing. How Floyd Little gets inducted an OJ gets no love is beyond me. He was a dominant back while with the Cardinals.
I completely agree on Anderson's ability to change his running style to increase his longevity. Not many backs can transition from a "wow" back to a "plow horse" and still be successful. It is a shame that he is not remembered for his play with the Cardinals where he a game changer at the running back position with speed, power, and moves. Much like Emmitt Smith, Anderson is remembered for the later portion of his career rather than the earlier years where he could break long runs rather than just grind out yardage.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
Frank Gore's career started in 2005..Since 2005, he has received a GRAND TOTAL of 14 All-Pro votes at RB TOTAL..All-Pro votes measure DOMINANCE at a position in any given single season.
Here are the RBs with more All-Pro votes than Gore during his career (2005-2016):
Adrian Peterson, Minnesota, 184
LaDainian Tomlinson, S.D., 103
Jamaal Charles, Kansas City, 87
LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 78
Le'Veon Bell, Pittsburgh, 62
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 51
Arian Foster, Houston, 51
Chris Johnson, Tennesee, 50
Shaun Alexander, Seattle, 49
DeMarco Murray, Dallas, 48
Tiki Barber, NY Giants, 47
Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas, 47
Michael Turner, Atl, 40
Doug Martin, Tampa Bay, 37
Ray Rice, Baltimore, 36
Brian Westbrook, Philadelphia 33
Marshawn Lynch, Seattle, 32
Larry Johnson, Kansas City, 26
Steven Jackson, St. Louis, 17
Frank Gore-----14-------------------------------------
I would contend that All Pro votes are a measure of perceived dominance by sports writers who possibly have biases, might be under informed, and value their personal opinion over any other source of information. The voting system is pretty good but not perfect. We also have to remember there are only two first team spots every year so a few talented players get bypassed, and that happens at every position.
Many of the players listed had better seasons but based on the numbers Gore's overall career has been superior to most of them,
Correct. Most of them are the exact same media people who are on the HOF committee. Lol
Aren't we talking HOF odds and possibilities? This is why the HOF voters hold All-Pro selections and all decade selections in such high esteem.
Yes these votes show dominance within a season. A superior dominant season above the rest of the players at the position can get a player all 50 votes at a position sometimes. This was my point. All-Pro voters (aka HOF voters) did not perceive Gore as a very dominant RB. He won't be elected for being one of the top 2-3 RBs of his era. If he is to be elected it will be as an accumulator. A guy who consistently put up very good numbers and was a very good player for a long period. Not a dominant player who is elected irregardless of the numbers.
So again, the question is who many rushing yards will he need? I say at least 14k and most likely 15k to have any HOF odds above 50%. That part is my personal opinion. The votes and how those are used in HOF debates among the HOF media voters is fact.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And just for the record, I compared the voter lists for the most recent 2016 voting, and exactly 20 of the 50 AP All-Pro voters are also voters on the HOF selection committee...Many of them being senior members of the committee..The ones with biggest voices and the most pull in the room...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Frank Gore's career started in 2005..Since 2005, he has received a GRAND TOTAL of 14 All-Pro votes at RB TOTAL..All-Pro votes measure DOMINANCE at a position in any given single season.
Here are the RBs with more All-Pro votes than Gore during his career (2005-2016):
Adrian Peterson, Minnesota, 184
LaDainian Tomlinson, S.D., 103
Jamaal Charles, Kansas City, 87
LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 78
Le'Veon Bell, Pittsburgh, 62
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 51
Arian Foster, Houston, 51
Chris Johnson, Tennesee, 50
Shaun Alexander, Seattle, 49
DeMarco Murray, Dallas, 48
Tiki Barber, NY Giants, 47
Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas, 47
Michael Turner, Atl, 40
Doug Martin, Tampa Bay, 37
Ray Rice, Baltimore, 36
Brian Westbrook, Philadelphia 33
Marshawn Lynch, Seattle, 32
Larry Johnson, Kansas City, 26
Steven Jackson, St. Louis, 17
Frank Gore-----14-------------------------------------
I would contend that All Pro votes are a measure of perceived dominance by sports writers who possibly have biases, might be under informed, and value their personal opinion over any other source of information. The voting system is pretty good but not perfect. We also have to remember there are only two first team spots every year so a few talented players get bypassed, and that happens at every position.
Many of the players listed had better seasons but based on the numbers Gore's overall career has been superior to most of them,
Correct. Most of them are the exact same media people who are on the HOF committee. Lol
Aren't we talking HOF odds and possibilities? This is why the HOF voters hold All-Pro selections and all decade selections in such high esteem.
Yes these votes show dominance within a season. A superior dominant season above the rest of the players at the position can get a player all 50 votes at a position sometimes. This was my point. All-Pro voters (aka HOF voters) did not perceive Gore as a very dominant RB. He won't be elected for being one of the top 2-3 RBs of his era. If he is to be elected it will be as an accumulator. A guy who consistently put up very good numbers and was a very good player for a long period. Not a dominant player who is elected irregardless of the numbers.
So again, the question is who many rushing yards will he need? I say at least 14k and most likely 15k to have any HOF odds above 50%. That part is my personal opinion. The votes and how those are used in HOF debates among the HOF media voters is fact.
I completely agree with you on the criteria that the voters consider between the stats, career accolades, and championships. Chuck Howley is still waiting because some foolish voter put their support toward Morris rather than him when the 1960 All Decade Team was decided.
On thing Gore has going for him is that 6 backs who played a good portion of their careers in 1990's have made the HOF, not just the top 2-3. Also 9 out of the top 10 rushing leaders are in the Hall of Fame with Gore being far from eligible to make it 10/10.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Agree with you there, there are not many conclusive HOF RBs from the Gore era...
Typically get 5-8 HOF RBs in any given season, but there are some outliers...
Take 1986-1989...Only 4 HOF RBs played during those years...Roger Craig, had he been elected would have been the 5th, which is typical throughout history (5-8 as stated)...He has excellent overall career numbers (13k yards from scrimmage), has THREE Super Bowl Rings, as well as 4 Pro Bowls and a 1st Team All-Pro and was named 2nd Team All-Decade of the 1980s..
Yet, he's about to enter his 25th year of eligibility and is still not in...Are we saying that Frank Gore is more deserving than Craig? I think the majority who watched both play would choose Craig as the better player...His accolades are better..He was 12th all-time in yards from scrimmage when he retired, 13th in rushing yards, along with 566 career receptions. That's more receptions than any of the 12 rushers with more career yards at the time of his retirement in 1993...
If Craig is not elected this year, he moves to the Senior Pool..Hopefully he gets in one day, but just goes to show that making the HOF is a bit tougher than you may think..And Gore trying to get there as an accumulator as I've said before, needs more than his current 13k yards IMO...Too many others who are close, and who would have bigger numbers had they been able to stay as healthy as Gore has and extend their careers as accumulators...Thats truky the only reason Gore is worth discussing as a HOF possibility..He stayed health in a time where the majority of the top RBs didnt have long careers ( Shaun Alexander, Clinton Portis, Marshawn Lynch, Maurice Jones-Drew, Jamal Lewis, etc.)..
I don't see that as a valid reason to conclude that Frank Gore's HOF odds are any better than about 20% at this point.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Agree with you there, there are not many conclusive HOF RBs from the Gore era...
Typically get 5-8 HOF RBs in any given season, but there are some outliers...
Take 1986-1989...Only 4 HOF RBs played during those years...Roger Craig, had he been elected would have been the 5th, which is typical throughout history (5-8 as stated)...He has excellent overall career numbers (13k yards from scrimmage), has THREE Super Bowl Rings, as well as 4 Pro Bowls and a 1st Team All-Pro and was named 2nd Team All-Decade of the 1980s..
Yet, he's about to enter his 25th year of eligibility and is still not in...Are we saying that Frank Gore is more deserving than Craig? I think the majority who watched both play would choose Craig as the better player...His accolades are better..He was 12th all-time in yards from scrimmage when he retired, 13th in rushing yards, along with 566 career receptions. That's more receptions than any of the 12 rushers with more career yards at the time of his retirement in 1993...
If Craig is not elected this year, he moves to the Senior Pool..Hopefully he gets in one day, but just goes to show that making the HOF is a bit tougher than you may think..And Gore trying to get there as an accumulator as I've said before, needs more than his current 13k yards IMO...Too many others who are close, and who would have bigger numbers had they been able to stay as healthy as Gore has and extend their careers as accumulators...Thats truky the only reason Gore is worth discussing as a HOF possibility..He stayed health in a time where the majority of the top RBs didnt have long careers ( Shaun Alexander, Clinton Portis, Marshawn Lynch, Maurice Jones-Drew, Jamal Lewis, etc.)..
I don't see that as a valid reason to conclude that Frank Gore's HOF odds are any better than about 20% at this point.
I support your argument for Craig as a HOF candidate, he was a very talented back who possessed an amazing all-around skill set. I never had the opportunity to attend 49'ers games but in the games I watched on TV both were impressive players. In my opinion Gore was a better runner who could still contribute in the passing game. I would love to have seen Gore play with Montana and Rice so we could get a true comparison of each back. Either way I think both played at a HOF level during their careers.
In regards to what Gore needs to accumulate I think if he finishes his career among the top 5 in rushing yards and 100 total TD's I think the argument transitions to why voters should keep him out of the Hall of Fame because those would be more than worthy accomplishments.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
In regards to what Gore needs to accumulate I think if he finishes his career among the top 5 in rushing yards and 100 total TD's I think the argument transitions to why voters should keep him out of the Hall of Fame because those would be more than worthy accomplishments.
I think as we've learned in recent history of HOF voting, its not particularly where you stand when you retire, but rather where the player stands 5 years later when he becomes HOF eligible...
13.685 yards (would put him 5th all-time) and 100 TDs (would rank him 23rd all-time)..I just dont see that being enough..It will put him in the conversation, and its great that we think Craig and Anderson and all these guys should be HOFers, but reality is its tougher to get in than it is to be left out...NFL is littered with "great" players who couldnt garner enough support to ever make the cut to the the final 5 and get 80% votes for induction.
If Im looking at all variables, HOF voters arent putting Gore in with 13,685 and 100 total TDs, 5 Pro Bowls, 0 First Team All-Pro, Not all Decade, No SB rings very easily...It will be a long road for him, and by the time he climbs the ladder, his stats may no longer look quite as impressive, which is what happened to Roger Craig...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In regards to what Gore needs to accumulate I think if he finishes his career among the top 5 in rushing yards and 100 total TD's I think the argument transitions to why voters should keep him out of the Hall of Fame because those would be more than worthy accomplishments.
I think as we've learned in recent history of HOF voting, its not particularly where you stand when you retire, but rather where the player stands 5 years later when he becomes HOF eligible...
13.685 yards (would put him 5th all-time) and 100 TDs (would rank him 23rd all-time)..I just dont see that being enough..It will put him in the conversation, and its great that we think Craig and Anderson and all these guys should be HOFers, but reality is its tougher to get in than it is to be left out...NFL is littered with "great" players who couldnt garner enough support to ever make the cut to the the final 5 and get 80% votes for induction.
If Im looking at all variables, HOF voters arent putting Gore in with 13,685 and 100 total TDs, 5 Pro Bowls, 0 First Team All-Pro, Not all Decade, No SB rings very easily...It will be a long road for him, and by the time he climbs the ladder, his stats may no longer look quite as impressive, which is what happened to Roger Craig...
I agree, Gore's numbers will have to have some staying power to legitimize his chances at induction. With the game transitioning to more passing offenses and two back systems I believe his stats will have a chance to stand a while and that will only help his chances.
When looking at the players with 100 total TD's the only two HOF eligible players not in the HOF are Owens and Alexander. Looking at Alexander (since he is a running back) I believe falling short of 10,000 yards has really hurt his shot at induction. If Gore would get to 100 TD's he would be only 12 behind Alexander while probably posting over 4,000 more rushing yards (Gore currently has 3,600 more yards). I am not sure Gore will get 10 more scores or what his rushing numbers will look like in 2017 but those numbers are attainable without having a career year.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Lets suppose Gore retires after 2017, and hypothetically lets say he puts up 935 yards rushing (puts him at 14k) and 10 TDs (puts him at 100 TDs)...
When does Gore get elected? First 5 years eligible? Last 5 years eligible? Or somewhere in between,,,And with the proliferation of offenses in today's game, how many more players will have over 100 TDs by the time you believe he will be at the top of the list for induction?
IMO, even if he retires with 100+, there are many other current active players who already have 50 TDs and are ahead of Frank Gore's TD pace to also have 100+...Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Antonio Brown, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Dez Bryant, Matt Forte, LeSean McCoy, Brandon Marshall...If even only half of these guys reach and surpass Gore, that hurts his case greatly.
RBs on pace to retire with more rushing yards than Gore (if they are able to stay healthy of course)..Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy, DeMarco Murray, All 3 more than halfway to Gore's total with higher yards per game averages..
While I do think the more TDs he has the better, I have never heard of a 100 TD plateau for being an automatic HOFer...Its similar to the old belief that 10,000 yards rushing or 1,000 receptions meant automatic induction, they do not.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How do we rank Gore among others who are not yet on the Future Modern Set? Is he even a glaring omission at this point?
Ronde Barber, Jeff Saturday, Brian Waters, Logan Mankins, Devin Hester, Steve Smith, Jahri Evans, Jason Peters, Patrick Peterson, Navorro Bowman, Nick Mangold, Marshall Yanda, James Harrison, Vince Wilfork, Matt Ryan...
Of these, I would put Barber, Smith and Peters ahead of Gore without question...These are 30-50% HOF odds type of guys IMO...I would probably vote to add both Barber and Peters to the set...Smith, I just don't think his numbers are going to hold up and his already behind a large group of HOF eligible WRs...
Mankins, Evans, Harrison, Ryan...This is probably Gore's area, at least on my list...All guys who should be a consideration for the set, but me personally would not vote for their addition..20-30% HOF odds type of guys
Saturday, Waters, Hester, Peterson, Bowman, Mangold, Yanda, Wilfork...All great players, and the active ones still have a shot to move up, but IMO, I would have to see these guys make a HOF top 25 semifinal list before believing they have anywhere close to enough support to think they have 50%+ odds...These are more like 10-20% HOF odds...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Lets suppose Gore retires after 2017, and hypothetically lets say he puts up 935 yards rushing (puts him at 14k) and 10 TDs (puts him at 100 TDs)...
When does Gore get elected? First 5 years eligible? Last 5 years eligible? Or somewhere in between,,,And with the proliferation of offenses in today's game, how many more players will have over 100 TDs by the time you believe he will be at the top of the list for induction?
IMO, even if he retires with 100+, there are many other current active players who already have 50 TDs and are ahead of Frank Gore's TD pace to also have 100+...Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Antonio Brown, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Dez Bryant, Matt Forte, LeSean McCoy, Brandon Marshall...If even only half of these guys reach and surpass Gore, that hurts his case greatly.
RBs on pace to retire with more rushing yards than Gore (if they are able to stay healthy of course)..Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy, DeMarco Murray, All 3 more than halfway to Gore's total with higher yards per game averages..
While I do think the more TDs he has the better, I have never heard of a 100 TD plateau for being an automatic HOFer...Its similar to the old belief that 10,000 yards rushing or 1,000 receptions meant automatic induction, they do not.
Of the players you listed possibly scoring 100 TD's only two were running backs, which speaks to my point that the success of the passing game will take stats away from the running back position. If the majority of players to score 100 TD's are WR's or even TE's it will only help the running backs who do it stand out more.
I would love to see McCoy and Murray go for over 10,000 rushing yards in their careers but there is no way of knowing when their bodies are going to break down. I really thought MJD was going to be part of the 10,000 yard-100 TD club until his durability left after one of his best seasons in his career. I guess my point is that is just hard to project where a running back will finish there career in regards to health as they hit the wall quickly and without warning.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@JasP24 said:
How do we rank Gore among others who are not yet on the Future Modern Set? Is he even a glaring omission at this point?
Ronde Barber, Jeff Saturday, Brian Waters, Logan Mankins, Devin Hester, Steve Smith, Jahri Evans, Jason Peters, Patrick Peterson, Navorro Bowman, Nick Mangold, Marshall Yanda, James Harrison, Vince Wilfork, Matt Ryan...
Of these, I would put Barber, Smith and Peters ahead of Gore without question...These are 30-50% HOF odds type of guys IMO...I would probably vote to add both Barber and Peters to the set...Smith, I just don't think his numbers are going to hold up and his already behind a large group of HOF eligible WRs...
Mankins, Evans, Harrison, Ryan...This is probably Gore's area, at least on my list...All guys who should be a consideration for the set, but me personally would not vote for their addition..20-30% HOF odds type of guys
Saturday, Waters, Hester, Peterson, Bowman, Mangold, Yanda, Wilfork...All great players, and the active ones still have a shot to move up, but IMO, I would have to see these guys make a HOF top 25 semifinal list before believing they have anywhere close to enough support to think they have 50%+ odds...These are more like 10-20% HOF odds...
I would not say he is a glaring omission but if has another consistent season his inclusion in the set needs to be considered.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I agree with that...He gets to 14k yards even if it takes a couple more years, he's got to be in the discussion...
As far as 100 TDs goes, the 100 number really is just a meaningless mile marker...Above it or below it isnt going to determine anyone's HOF inclusion/exclusion...Its going to come down to his per game and per season averages...Gore has accumulated a high number of TDs, but thats because he also accumulated a high number of games and seasons.
I'm not sure what he has left in the tank..Most of the talk in Indy is that they will be bringing in a new RB starter, either through FA or draft...At best, that puts Gore in a backup/second option level...And obviously this is just assumption, as for all I know the guy could retire before the season, we just don't know..Same with the Murray's and McCoy's, as you mentioned, and I agree, its assumptions..Gore retiring with 100 TD is also an assumption as he isnt there yet either.
All we know is what he's put on film and in the stat book so far. And adding it all together, IMO, puts him at this moment around 20% HOF odds, and not worthy of inclusion to the Future HOF RC set. We should save further discussion of his candidacy after he adds to his current resume.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
For my money, once Boselli and Law are added, the closest guys that should be under consideration are Ronde Barber and Jason Peters... But at this point, we should probably just wait and see if Barber makes the top 25 in November in his first year of eligibility, and Peters, we might as well wait and see what he does in the 2017 season....
But I wouldnt be surprised to see either of them get requested, and if done to soon, they will get voted down and be in for a much longer wait...
Excellent discussions though, this is how we used to determine who to request for additions and who not...We weren't perfect but we at least were able to make the for and against cases, similar to what they do in the HOF meeting and help us make the right decisions...Every player we ever requested, after discussing and approving them here, were voted onto the set.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
I agree with that...He gets to 14k yards even if it takes a couple more years, he's got to be in the discussion...
As far as 100 TDs goes, the 100 number really is just a meaningless mile marker...Above it or below it isnt going to determine anyone's HOF inclusion/exclusion...Its going to come down to his per game and per season averages...Gore has accumulated a high number of TDs, but thats because he also accumulated a high number of games and seasons.
I'm not sure what he has left in the tank..Most of the talk in Indy is that they will be bringing in a new RB starter, either through FA or draft...At best, that puts Gore in a backup/second option level...And obviously this is just assumption, as for all I know the guy could retire before the season, we just don't know..Same with the Murray's and McCoy's, as you mentioned, and I agree, its assumptions..Gore retiring with 100 TD is also an assumption as he isnt there yet either.
All we know is what he's put on film and in the stat book so far. And adding it all together, IMO, puts him at this moment around 20% HOF odds, and not worthy of inclusion to the Future HOF RC set. We should save further discussion of his candidacy after he adds to his current resume.
I understand the value of per game and per season averages, especially for players with short careers, but I don't they think can be used to discount players who produce at a consistent level of have longer careers. Not every great player has years of dominance, sometimes being great means being consistently good over a long period of time.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I understand the value of per game and per season averages, especially for players with short careers, but I don't they think can be used to discount players who produce at a consistent level of have longer careers. Not every great player has years of dominance, sometimes being great means being consistently good over a long period of time.
Here is the list of RBs who have been elected to the HOF with ZERO 1st Team All-Pro selections:
John Henry Johnson (elected as a Senior Candidate 27 years after becoming HOF eligible)
The End.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And here is the list of ALL Modern Era HOF PLAYERS who have been elected to the HOF with ZERO dominant (1st Team All-Pro) seasons...
Tim Brown
Warren Moon
John Elway
Harry Carson
Elvin Bethea
Andre Reed
Jackie Slater
Troy Aikman
Rickey Jackson
Roger Staubach
Tommy McDonald
Mike McCormack
Dante Lavelli
John Henry Johnson
With 5 or Fewer Pro Bowls and Zero Championships (Same as Frank Gore):
Dick LeBeau (Senior Committee Selection)
Bob St. Clair (Senior Committee Selection)
Jackie Smith (ALL TIME Leader in Receptions and Receiving Yards by TE at the time of his retirement...11 tries before elected)
So basically we have ONE Modern Era Player, who was not selected by the Senior Committee in the HOF with a 5 Pro Bowl, 0 1st Team All-Pro, 0 Championship profile...And that player retired as the All-Time Leader as his position (and yes Jackie Smith was an accumulator)....I'd say that puts Frank Gore's odds even lower than I thought they might be...
In fact, he might need to pass Barry for 3rd all-time behind only Walter and Emmitt to overcome his otherwise weak resume...Minimum 15k yards for Gore to have better than 50/50 HOF odds..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Lastly, here are your modern era accumulators...Guys with zero 1st Team All-Pro and Zero Championships...Look at the number of years they had to play...
Warren Moon-17 seasons
Tim Brown-17 seasons
Elvin Bethea-16 seasons
Andre Reed-16 seasons
Jackie Slater-20 seasons
Jackie Smith-16 seasons
By this measure this says that Gore will need 4 more seasons...Which should get him the 2k yards he also needs...
We now have a time frame for adding Gore to the Future HOF set...Following the 2020 season...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I wonder just how much if any the HOF voters considered Moon's CFL successes.
I am really liking the above comments. I like Gore as he is always a class act and gives 100%.
For me the HOF inductee has to have the "wow" factor. Kinda like a old Barry Sanders run. I just can't put Gore next to Gayle Sayers. I respect him and consider him a great FB player.
On the no 1st team AP selections....maybe that player played at the same time as a truly very dominant guy
such as Sayers where he won 6 1st team AP in a short time.
Didn't JHJ play at the same time as Lenny Moore? I have not seen that much film of him so I don't feel qualified to
make a statement.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
1st Team AP All-Pro RB's during John Henry Johnson's career (1954-1966):
Doak Walker
Ollie Matson-3
Lenny Moore -4
Frank Gifford-3
Joe Perry
Alan Ameche
Jim Brown-6
Jim Taylor
Tommy Mason
Gale Sayers-2
Paul Hornung
Don Perkins
Leroy Kelly
He definitely had quite a bit of top notch competition at the position, and that likely helped his case. Only 3 RBs were 1st Team All-Pros during Johnson's career who are not in the HOF.
He was a modern era finalist 8 times before getting into the HOF as a Senior selection on his 9th time as a finalist, 21 years after his retirement. He was 4th All-Time in rushing yards at the time of his retirement. He also helped Detroit win the 1957 NFL Championship.
If Gore is to become a HOFer, he's likely going to take a similar path. If he can get to 15k or be a 1st Team All-Pro in his last year or two, then he certainly would push higher in the line.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Of the 34 players who have scored at least 90 total TD's only 6 HOF eligible players are not inducted (Owens, Alexander, Holmes, Watters, James, and Bruce). Bruce and Owens have excellent resumes but they also have benefited from rule changes that improved passing and receiving numbers. Of the players in the top ten in regards to receiving yards only 3 have been inducted to the HOF. This is in stark contrast to rushing yards where 9 out of the the top 10 players have been inducted to the HOF. My simple math says 90% of the players in the top ten of rushing yards are in the HOF.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@jay0791 said:
I wonder just how much if any the HOF voters considered Moon's CFL successes.
I am really liking the above comments. I like Gore as he is always a class act and gives 100%.
For me the HOF inductee has to have the "wow" factor. Kinda like a old Barry Sanders run. I just can't put Gore next to Gayle Sayers. I respect him and consider him a great FB player.
On the no 1st team AP selections....maybe that player played at the same time as a truly very dominant guy
such as Sayers where he won 6 1st team AP in a short time.
Didn't JHJ play at the same time as Lenny Moore? I have not seen that much film of him so I don't feel qualified to
make a statement.
I think the "wow" factor is one component but not every player is going to have an electric running style, play defensive back like Sanders, or rush the QB like Taylor. There are so many different ways to be successful in the NFL that an absent of an amazing play should not prevent a player from being inducted to the HOF.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@dfr52 said:
Of the 34 players who have scored at least 90 total TD's only 6 HOF eligible players are not inducted (Owens, Alexander, Holmes, Watters, James, and Bruce). Bruce and Owens have excellent resumes but they also have benefited from rule changes that improved passing and receiving numbers. Of the players in the top ten in regards to receiving yards only 3 have been inducted to the HOF. This is in stark contrast to rushing yards where 9 out of the the top 10 players have been inducted to the HOF. My simple math says 90% of the players in the top ten of rushing yards are in the HOF.
That will certainly help his case, but knowing that the HOF voters, if Gore ever gets in the room, will compare him to the rest of those guys, and Gore will not compare favorably...But because he is where he is, the only reason he has any HOF odds (which I put around 20% at this point)
I will use the top 16 All-time rushers as comparisons..Only 3 of them are not in the HOF..Ed James, who has already been a finalist, Adrian Peterson, who is a 100% odds , likely 1st ballot HOFer, and Gore...
9 of the 16 were League MVPs..Not just best at their position, but best player in the NFL...8 of them won Championships...15 of the 16 were 1st Team All-Pros at least once...If Im trying to find comparable players to Gore in this group Curtis Martin would probably be the closest..The majority of the top 16 are in a different class and skillset than Gore...
Martin however had 83.6 YPG and was a 1st Team All-Pro one time...Gore is at 72.6 and historically RBs YPG decline in their last year or two, which Gore hasnt really had yet...
Really this just takes us back to the original gist of the debate...Gore is an accumulator...I think we can agree on that..Very good for a long period, never great. How many current voters have put in a RB accumulator? Again, maybe can argue Curtis Martin, He also accumulated 14k yards and 100 TDs...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Mentions Chuck Foreman......a workhorse for the Viks.
Now he is a good comparison to Gore. Similar type players
Hall of very good.
Absolutely..Great find and match..Both players with 5 Pro Bowls, Foreman also with a 1st Team All-Pro on his resume..All in his first 6 years in the league prior to injuring his knee in 1979..Can only imagine what he, along with many other players of that era would look like numbers wise if they had the same medical support as they get today. Foreman also put his numbers up in 14 game seasons! Led the league in receptions one year...Led the league in TDs another year...
I think the HOF voters have done a pretty fair job in not rewarding too many accumulators simply for staying healthy..Yes, length of career is an important measure, but if the resume doesn't match, I like that they err on the side of putting guys in who were clearly among the top 2-3 at their position for a stretch and not just an ok, 6th-7th best guy for many years...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@dfr52 said:
Of the 34 players who have scored at least 90 total TD's only 6 HOF eligible players are not inducted (Owens, Alexander, Holmes, Watters, James, and Bruce). Bruce and Owens have excellent resumes but they also have benefited from rule changes that improved passing and receiving numbers. Of the players in the top ten in regards to receiving yards only 3 have been inducted to the HOF. This is in stark contrast to rushing yards where 9 out of the the top 10 players have been inducted to the HOF. My simple math says 90% of the players in the top ten of rushing yards are in the HOF.
That will certainly help his case, but knowing that the HOF voters, if Gore ever gets in the room, will compare him to the rest of those guys, and Gore will not compare favorably...But because he is where he is, the only reason he has any HOF odds (which I put around 20% at this point)
I will use the top 16 All-time rushers as comparisons..Only 3 of them are not in the HOF..Ed James, who has already been a finalist, Adrian Peterson, who is a 100% odds , likely 1st ballot HOFer, and Gore...
9 of the 16 were League MVPs..Not just best at their position, but best player in the NFL...8 of them won Championships...15 of the 16 were 1st Team All-Pros at least once...If Im trying to find comparable players to Gore in this group Curtis Martin would probably be the closest..The majority of the top 16 are in a different class and skillset than Gore...
Martin however had 83.6 YPG and was a 1st Team All-Pro one time...Gore is at 72.6 and historically RBs YPG decline in their last year or two, which Gore hasnt really had yet...
Really this just takes us back to the original gist of the debate...Gore is an accumulator...I think we can agree on that..Very good for a long period, never great. How many current voters have put in a RB accumulator? Again, maybe can argue Curtis Martin, He also accumulated 14k yards and 100 TDs...
I don't think of Gore as an accumulator rather just consistently good. When I think of accumulators I think of players such as Joiner and Allen who each played nearly 20 seasons and mixed some great seasons with some not so great years. What Gore lacks in accolades and championships he makes up for consistently good production. Between the way you have analyzed Gore based on per game stats, career accolades, and championships he falls short. Based on my analysis of what Gore has been able to do over the course of his career in relation to other players already in the HOF he looks like an excellent candidate. Inconsideration of our differing analysis of Gore's career and the fact that it is somewhat difficult to find a comparable player it tells me one thing-Gore is an anomaly at the running back position. My only hope is that the voters take a very good look at Gore and see how he consistently produced at a high level. He did not have the peaks and valleys of some backs like Larry Brown or Chuck Foreman but he has posted 1,000 yards nine out of twelve seasons and his yards per game average is higher than both Brown and Foreman as well.
Interesting article from Gosselin. Talk of Fame is a great blog and Gosselin is definitely one of the more informed reporters who has influence among his fellow voters, but I have noticed that once he forms an opinion he sticks to it for all he is worth. He values the All Decade lists very highly and will use those to build up or tear down a potential candidate. And as we all know the All Decade Teams are not perfect and great players can fail to make them since they are a matter of opinion and opinion can always be influenced by bias.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Between the way you have analyzed Gore based on per game stats, career accolades, and championships he falls short. Based on my analysis of what Gore has been able to do over the course of his career in relation to other players already in the HOF he looks like an excellent candidate. Inconsideration of our differing analysis of Gore's career and the fact that it is somewhat difficult to find a comparable player it tells me one thing-Gore is an anomaly at the running back position.
Well said...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Interesting article from Gosselin. Talk of Fame is a great blog and Gosselin is definitely one of the more informed reporters who has influence among his fellow voters, but I have noticed that once he forms an opinion he sticks to it for all he is worth. He values the All Decade lists very highly and will use those to build up or tear down a potential candidate. And as we all know the All Decade Teams are not perfect and great players can fail to make them since they are a matter of opinion and opinion can always be influenced by bias.
He places high value on the All-Decade lists and All-Pro's for the same reason I explained earlier in the thread...All-Pro selections and All-Decade Teams are essentially selected by the same HOF voters who are in the meeting when the final 15 are being discussed for induction. He places high value because he understands the weight that they carry when the HOF selection committee is meeting and debating and comparing the 15 players for 8 hours the day before each Super Bowl...
Is there opinion and bias involved in the HOF vote as well? Of course there is..Just ask T.O.! lol
Its mostly media guys, but many of them, like Gosselin dig very very deep into each players career for the months leading up to the meeting...They have to have pros and cons for most players...For others, like say Favre or Rice or Montana, etc..There is no discussion and no need for one...If Gore ever gets in the room, all of the things we have discussed here on both sides will be debated...And Gore's case will need to be one of the top 5 cases among the 15 being discussed that day.
If these are his PROS:
"I don't think of Gore as an accumulator rather just consistently good"
"What Gore lacks in accolades and championships he makes up for consistently good production."
" He did not have the peaks and valleys of some backs like Larry Brown or Chuck Foreman but he has posted 1,000 yards nine out of twelve seasons and his yards per game average is higher than both Brown and Foreman as well."
Then his odds are possibly even less than 20%..Hall of Very Good, not Hall Of Fame...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Interesting article from Gosselin. Talk of Fame is a great blog and Gosselin is definitely one of the more informed reporters who has influence among his fellow voters, but I have noticed that once he forms an opinion he sticks to it for all he is worth. He values the All Decade lists very highly and will use those to build up or tear down a potential candidate. And as we all know the All Decade Teams are not perfect and great players can fail to make them since they are a matter of opinion and opinion can always be influenced by bias.
He places high value on the All-Decade lists and All-Pro's for the same reason I explained earlier in the thread...All-Pro selections and All-Decade Teams are essentially selected by the same HOF voters who are in the meeting when the final 15 are being discussed for induction. He places high value because he understands the weight that they carry when the HOF selection committee is meeting and debating and comparing the 15 players for 8 hours the day before each Super Bowl...
Is there opinion and bias involved in the HOF vote as well? Of course there is..Just ask T.O.! lol
Its mostly media guys, but many of them, like Gosselin dig very very deep into each players career for the months leading up to the meeting...They have to have pros and cons for most players...For others, like say Favre or Rice or Montana, etc..There is no discussion and no need for one...If Gore ever gets in the room, all of the things we have discussed here on both sides will be debated...And Gore's case will need to be one of the top 5 cases among the 15 being discussed that day.
If these are his PROS:
"I don't think of Gore as an accumulator rather just consistently good"
"What Gore lacks in accolades and championships he makes up for consistently good production."
" He did not have the peaks and valleys of some backs like Larry Brown or Chuck Foreman but he has posted 1,000 yards nine out of twelve seasons and his yards per game average is higher than both Brown and Foreman as well."
Then his odds are possibly even less than 20%..Hall of Very Good, not Hall Of Fame...
If Gore ever gets brought up for discussion by the voters his presenter won't be leading with any of those points. At least I hope not.lol
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I have to disagree with the above. I have already said I like F Gore. However he is no Chuck Foreman. I saw both play their entire careers. Inconsistent !!!!! Wow Double WOW. The man put up close to or 1000 yard seasons in 14 games.....on a very cold muddy Minnesota field and a trip to blizzard plagued Buffalo once per year. He was twice the reception threat as Gore...about 3000 yard in 6 years. He has about the same rec stats as Gore but in 1/2 the time. That's all he had before he had career ending injuries. He was the Viks workhorse and back then your workhorse played injured or not. Not today. As Jason mentioned.....had he had access to today's medical he would be a no brainer HOFer. He also played when O J Simpson dominated the RB position so he didn't quite the notoriety
as OJ won 5 1st Team AP's. IMO neither is a HOFer....but if I had to start a team you couldn't go wrong with either but I would choose CF as he had more of that WOW factor .
If I were a guy who ran and caught the football I would rather be doing it in San Fran then Minn.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
If I were drafting a team, I would take Foreman as well and its not close...He was a feared player on a teams with many offensive weapons...Tarkenton at QB, Sammy White, Ahmad Rashad, John Gilliam at WR..Yet Foreman led his team in rushing yards AND receptions in multiple Super Bowl seasons...Had they won even ONE of those 3 Super Bowlss, Foreman would be in the HOF even with his shortened career (which was essentially 6 seasons)..
Vikings Records those 6 years: 62-22-2, 3 Super Bowl appearances, 1 Conference Championship loss, two Divisional losses...Playoffs every single year...
He was a HUGE part of their offensive success...Yet again, it boils sown to where do we draw the line between dominance and accumulation/career length...The line was re-drawn this past year..With a guy like Boselli leapfrogging a guy like Jacoby in the HOF line. Also Terrell Davis and Easley getting elected with the low games count..Dominance, right now, is being rewarded above career length...Gore was never dominant, that's not even debatable, that is spelled out in his low All-Pro vote counts...But he has been very good for longer than the average RB of this generation...
We don't know where they will draw the line with him, because due to his rushing totals, he's going to be a unique case and debate just as dfr52 pointed out above. But personally I rather see a RB like Foreman be put in before Gore goes in...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@jay0791 said:
I have to disagree with the above. I have already said I like F Gore. However he is no Chuck Foreman. I saw both play their entire careers. Inconsistent !!!!! Wow Double WOW. The man put up close to or 1000 yard seasons in 14 games.....on a very cold muddy Minnesota field and a trip to blizzard plagued Buffalo once per year. He was twice the reception threat as Gore...about 3000 yard in 6 years. He has about the same rec stats as Gore but in 1/2 the time. That's all he had before he had career ending injuries. He was the Viks workhorse and back then your workhorse played injured or not. Not today. As Jason mentioned.....had he had access to today's medical he would be a no brainer HOFer. He also played when O J Simpson dominated the RB position so he didn't quite the notoriety
as OJ won 5 1st Team AP's. IMO neither is a HOFer....but if I had to start a team you couldn't go wrong with either but I would choose CF as he had more of that WOW factor .
If I were a guy who ran and caught the football I would rather be doing it in San Fran then Minn.
I don't think I mentioned Foreman or Brown as inconsistent but rather they did have years where there production dropped. I understand that the decrease in stats/effectiveness occurred due to injury (and possibly over use) but that does not discount what Gore has accomplished. Durability should not be used against Gore because his health has allowed him to produce at high (not elite) level for nearly every year in his career.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Agree, and i don't think it has been held against him at all over his career thus far...At the same time, at the end of a solid career, you don't take a descent player with a below avg. resume (5 PB, 0 AP, 0 SB) and say "this guy is HOF material" simply because he was able to stay healthy and provide good (not great) level of play for longer than usual...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
Agree, and i don't think it has been held against him at all over his career thus far...At the same time, at the end of a solid career, you don't take a descent player with a below avg. resume (5 PB, 0 AP, 0 SB) and say "this guy is HOF material" simply because he was able to stay healthy and provide good (not great) level of play for longer than usual...
And therein lies the question, when does good become great? Because Gore is an anomaly who neither falls into the brief career (less than 10 years) with many awards category or longer career with at least a few honors his resume could be viewed in different ways. My hope is that his name is eventually brought up by the HOF voters and they take a deeper look into his career and don't simply write him off as a guy who was just lucky to stay healthy. Durability requires a combination of a player taking care of their body and being blessed with the ability to take a pounding (i.e. a physical gift like speed, strength, and agility). When cases are presented for players you never hear comments like a guy was "lucky top be fast or "he was fortunate to have a strong arm". Rather those qualities are chalked up to a player's skill set. In my opinion durability should be considered in the same context. I also believe Gore avoids the accumulator status because he wasn't just cranking out 800 yards season after 800 yard season. Players who produce consistent 1,000 seasons for the majority of their careers are pretty rare.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
1,000 yard per season in 2016 IS 800 yards per season in the 14 game seasons..lol
62.5 yards per game to get to 1,000 now, is the same as 875 yards in a season prior to 1978...
Again, this is why yards per game and yards per attempt carry have proven to carry more weight when it comes to RB HOF voting decisions..Most of the RBs in the HOF played pre-1978...To compare their totals to players in 2016 is like comparing apples to steak...
The ONLY THING Gore has going for him is that he has accumulated more yards rushing than all but 7 other RBs ever have...If he decides to retire before the 2017 season, he has virtually 0% odds of making the HOF...To me, that is an indictment on him already...If he was TRULY GREAT, 13k yards would be more than enough, just as it has been for every other RB before him..If he gets and stays in the top 5 until he becomes HOF eligible he will have to be considered, but will have a tough road...Short of that, I just don't see any argument for him in the room whats going to shine a light on him as being one of the best 5 of the 15 candidates in the room...
He's definitely going to be an anomaly...And Maybe he becomes the next Terrell Davis, just from the opposite direction and resets the standards by which RB careers are judged...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
1,000 yard per season in 2016 IS 800 yards per season in the 14 game seasons..lol
62.5 yards per game to get to 1,000 now, is the same as 875 yards in a season prior to 1978...
Again, this is why yards per game and yards per attempt carry have proven to carry more weight when it comes to RB HOF voting decisions..Most of the RBs in the HOF played pre-1978...To compare their totals to players in 2016 is like comparing apples to steak...
The ONLY THING Gore has going for him is that he has accumulated more yards rushing than all but 7 other RBs ever have...If he decides to retire before the 2017 season, he has virtually 0% odds of making the HOF...To me, that is an indictment on him already...If he was TRULY GREAT, 13k yards would be more than enough, just as it has been for every other RB before him..If he gets and stays in the top 5 until he becomes HOF eligible he will have to be considered, but will have a tough road...Short of that, I just don't see any argument for him in the room whats going to shine a light on him as being one of the best 5 of the 15 candidates in the room...
He's definitely going to be an anomaly...And Maybe he becomes the next Terrell Davis, just from the opposite direction and resets the standards by which RB careers are judged...
I should of mentioned in my previous post that I was referring to those running backs who played a majority of their careers during the current 16 game schedule rather than those who only played 14 or fewer games a season. Gore's yards per game average is better than modern HOF'ers: Bettis, Faulk, Thomas, Allen, Harris, and Riggins. Gore's yards per attempt are tied with Payton and better than: Dorsett, Faulk, Tomlinson, Campbell, Thomas, Smith, Harris, Allen, Martin, Bettis, and Riggins.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
https://youtu.be/YvhFbTtblnw. To me.....this says it all about his "accumulator" label. I honestly cant see, after all hes accomplished in his career, how he is not considered.
@TmbrWolf22 said: https://youtu.be/YvhFbTtblnw. To me.....this says it all about his "accumulator" label. I honestly cant see, after all hes accomplished in his career, how he is not considered.
That was a "wow" play!
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I really look forward to seeing where his career ends and I hope we are all around when he becomes HOF eligible. Going to be interesting to see how his candidacy plays out.
I'm with TmbrWolf22, I hope he plays 8 more years and 8k more yards so there is no doubt..As of today, he's got more work to do if he wants to join the ranks in Canton IMO, and in the opinion of at least a couple of voters who have discussed his odds.
Heck, he could just play ONE more year and earn a 1st Team All-Pro or a SB ring, and I would automatically bump his odds to 50%!
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
CROWN HIM! He made a Tip Toe TD? HOF..lol
I really look forward to seeing where his career ends and I hope we are all around when he becomes HOF eligible. Going to be interesting to see how his candidacy plays out.
I'm with TmbrWolf22, I hope he plays 8 more years and 8k more yards so there is no doubt..As of today, he's got more work to do if he wants to join the ranks in Canton IMO, and in the opinion of at least a couple of voters who have discussed his odds.
Heck, he could just play ONE more year and earn a 1st Team All-Pro or a SB ring, and I would automatically bump his odds to 50%!
I get that it was not a Jim Brown/Earl Campbell break away down the middle of the field where they run over 3 defenders or a Sayers/Sanders play where they juke all eleven guys on defense and out run everyone to the end zone but it was an outstanding play. His tip toe touchdown run required body control and balance that was simply amazing and he made it look simple.
I have no idea where he actually stands with the current crop of voters but if he has that type of dominant season I would put him at 100% to make the Hall of Fame. That would probably move him into the top 5 rushing and well over 100 total TD's. Under this scenario Gore would be a 6 time Pro Bowler, 1 time 1st team All Pro, Super Bowl Champion, the 5th all time rusher, and well over 100 TD's. That is one heck of a resume and the voters would recognize that.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Ok, you sold me....In that scenario, I'll increase his odds to 60%...
Now, what are the odds of that scenario happening? .60%? lol
Well, I think I do have a pretty good idea of where he stands with the current crop of voters, and it's exactly around the odds that I gave in my first post on the Gore subject...In or around 20% at the moment...He doesn't have all the selling points that scenario provides..And IMO, with so many years of being just a good solid accumulator (who certainly made some nice plays over his career) he needs that type of resume scenario...Or he needs somewhere between 14-15k yards rushing and probably will need 100 TDs as well..Thats just to get into the room as a top 15 candidate one day...
Im interested to see if the Colts new GM brings in a RB1 or RB2 to the Colts..Will give us an early idea of what his team feels he has left in the tank. I do believe he will play this season...Enough to get to 14k+ or 100+? Remains to be seen
Its too bad I've come off as a Gore hater, as I am not..I think he's been a very solid, dependable back..Both for the 49ers, and in his later years here with the Colts...But I think it is important, particularly when it comes to the Future Modern HOF set that we are careful annointing guys to the set who may not be as good in the eyes of the voters as they are in our own eyes...Thats how we end up with needing to REMOVE cards/players from the set...Much more prudent to be cautious with non-slam dunk guys, especially while they are still playing..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I remember watching that game last year, and thinking wow...for an older dude he really wasnt being denied on that play. I didnt mean to label you a Gore hater....all of what you are saying about his chances at HOF at this point in his career make sense. I just wanted to share that one play....lol
@TmbrWolf22 said:
I remember watching that game last year, and thinking wow...for an older dude he really wasnt being denied on that play. I didnt mean to label you a Gore hater....all of what you are saying about his chances at HOF at this point in his career make sense. I just wanted to share that one play....lol
You didn't, I labelled myself that as I feel like every post on Gore, I'm having to put his negatives to help bring some clarity to his situation...I think he's a very good RB and has been for many years...But If I put on Adrian Peterson's top 10 plays, and compare them to Frank Gore's top 10 plays, it's not even in the same hemisphere...So when I read that they both belong equally in the HOF, I just don't see it...Then I compare Gore's resume to other HOF RBs as I did previously in the thread and it leads me more down the road of very long odds...
But he is over 13k yards, and that is a significant number...A few years back, when RBs hit 10k yards many of us assumed they were HOF bound, which has turned out NOT to be the case unless they were dominant both on paper and on game film...At this point we can't be certain how Gore will finish his career..Until then, his HOF resume is a work in progress...He's not a guy who could retire today and be considered a likely HOFer IMO..Hence, not yet worthy for the Future HOF Modern set, which is really the entire basis of our discussions on him here.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
I would bump Ward up ahead of Megatron
Ward's per game averages and lack of regular season accolades only thing that keeps him lower on my list. Could buy him and Holt above the two Johnson's...
Calvin with the 3 first team all-pros and likely Team of Decade inclusion puts him up my list. Retiring a bit early no longer a hindrance to his HOF odds due to his being widely considered the top WR in the NFL for his stretch.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would contend that All Pro votes are a measure of perceived dominance by sports writers who possibly have biases, might be under informed, and value their personal opinion over any other source of information. The voting system is pretty good but not perfect. We also have to remember there are only two first team spots every year so a few talented players get bypassed, and that happens at every position.
Many of the players listed had better seasons but based on the numbers Gore's overall career has been superior to most of them,
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I completely agree on Anderson's ability to change his running style to increase his longevity. Not many backs can transition from a "wow" back to a "plow horse" and still be successful. It is a shame that he is not remembered for his play with the Cardinals where he a game changer at the running back position with speed, power, and moves. Much like Emmitt Smith, Anderson is remembered for the later portion of his career rather than the earlier years where he could break long runs rather than just grind out yardage.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Correct. Most of them are the exact same media people who are on the HOF committee. Lol
Aren't we talking HOF odds and possibilities? This is why the HOF voters hold All-Pro selections and all decade selections in such high esteem.
Yes these votes show dominance within a season. A superior dominant season above the rest of the players at the position can get a player all 50 votes at a position sometimes. This was my point. All-Pro voters (aka HOF voters) did not perceive Gore as a very dominant RB. He won't be elected for being one of the top 2-3 RBs of his era. If he is to be elected it will be as an accumulator. A guy who consistently put up very good numbers and was a very good player for a long period. Not a dominant player who is elected irregardless of the numbers.
So again, the question is who many rushing yards will he need? I say at least 14k and most likely 15k to have any HOF odds above 50%. That part is my personal opinion. The votes and how those are used in HOF debates among the HOF media voters is fact.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And just for the record, I compared the voter lists for the most recent 2016 voting, and exactly 20 of the 50 AP All-Pro voters are also voters on the HOF selection committee...Many of them being senior members of the committee..The ones with biggest voices and the most pull in the room...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I completely agree with you on the criteria that the voters consider between the stats, career accolades, and championships. Chuck Howley is still waiting because some foolish voter put their support toward Morris rather than him when the 1960 All Decade Team was decided.
On thing Gore has going for him is that 6 backs who played a good portion of their careers in 1990's have made the HOF, not just the top 2-3. Also 9 out of the top 10 rushing leaders are in the Hall of Fame with Gore being far from eligible to make it 10/10.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Agree with you there, there are not many conclusive HOF RBs from the Gore era...
Typically get 5-8 HOF RBs in any given season, but there are some outliers...
Take 1986-1989...Only 4 HOF RBs played during those years...Roger Craig, had he been elected would have been the 5th, which is typical throughout history (5-8 as stated)...He has excellent overall career numbers (13k yards from scrimmage), has THREE Super Bowl Rings, as well as 4 Pro Bowls and a 1st Team All-Pro and was named 2nd Team All-Decade of the 1980s..
Yet, he's about to enter his 25th year of eligibility and is still not in...Are we saying that Frank Gore is more deserving than Craig? I think the majority who watched both play would choose Craig as the better player...His accolades are better..He was 12th all-time in yards from scrimmage when he retired, 13th in rushing yards, along with 566 career receptions. That's more receptions than any of the 12 rushers with more career yards at the time of his retirement in 1993...
If Craig is not elected this year, he moves to the Senior Pool..Hopefully he gets in one day, but just goes to show that making the HOF is a bit tougher than you may think..And Gore trying to get there as an accumulator as I've said before, needs more than his current 13k yards IMO...Too many others who are close, and who would have bigger numbers had they been able to stay as healthy as Gore has and extend their careers as accumulators...Thats truky the only reason Gore is worth discussing as a HOF possibility..He stayed health in a time where the majority of the top RBs didnt have long careers ( Shaun Alexander, Clinton Portis, Marshawn Lynch, Maurice Jones-Drew, Jamal Lewis, etc.)..
I don't see that as a valid reason to conclude that Frank Gore's HOF odds are any better than about 20% at this point.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just want to say, I love following this thread. No involvement in the set, but the logic-based emotion-less debate is fascinating.
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I support your argument for Craig as a HOF candidate, he was a very talented back who possessed an amazing all-around skill set. I never had the opportunity to attend 49'ers games but in the games I watched on TV both were impressive players. In my opinion Gore was a better runner who could still contribute in the passing game. I would love to have seen Gore play with Montana and Rice so we could get a true comparison of each back. Either way I think both played at a HOF level during their careers.
In regards to what Gore needs to accumulate I think if he finishes his career among the top 5 in rushing yards and 100 total TD's I think the argument transitions to why voters should keep him out of the Hall of Fame because those would be more than worthy accomplishments.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
1999 and 2001
I think as we've learned in recent history of HOF voting, its not particularly where you stand when you retire, but rather where the player stands 5 years later when he becomes HOF eligible...
13.685 yards (would put him 5th all-time) and 100 TDs (would rank him 23rd all-time)..I just dont see that being enough..It will put him in the conversation, and its great that we think Craig and Anderson and all these guys should be HOFers, but reality is its tougher to get in than it is to be left out...NFL is littered with "great" players who couldnt garner enough support to ever make the cut to the the final 5 and get 80% votes for induction.
If Im looking at all variables, HOF voters arent putting Gore in with 13,685 and 100 total TDs, 5 Pro Bowls, 0 First Team All-Pro, Not all Decade, No SB rings very easily...It will be a long road for him, and by the time he climbs the ladder, his stats may no longer look quite as impressive, which is what happened to Roger Craig...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree, Gore's numbers will have to have some staying power to legitimize his chances at induction. With the game transitioning to more passing offenses and two back systems I believe his stats will have a chance to stand a while and that will only help his chances.
When looking at the players with 100 total TD's the only two HOF eligible players not in the HOF are Owens and Alexander. Looking at Alexander (since he is a running back) I believe falling short of 10,000 yards has really hurt his shot at induction. If Gore would get to 100 TD's he would be only 12 behind Alexander while probably posting over 4,000 more rushing yards (Gore currently has 3,600 more yards). I am not sure Gore will get 10 more scores or what his rushing numbers will look like in 2017 but those numbers are attainable without having a career year.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Lets suppose Gore retires after 2017, and hypothetically lets say he puts up 935 yards rushing (puts him at 14k) and 10 TDs (puts him at 100 TDs)...
When does Gore get elected? First 5 years eligible? Last 5 years eligible? Or somewhere in between,,,And with the proliferation of offenses in today's game, how many more players will have over 100 TDs by the time you believe he will be at the top of the list for induction?
IMO, even if he retires with 100+, there are many other current active players who already have 50 TDs and are ahead of Frank Gore's TD pace to also have 100+...Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Antonio Brown, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Dez Bryant, Matt Forte, LeSean McCoy, Brandon Marshall...If even only half of these guys reach and surpass Gore, that hurts his case greatly.
RBs on pace to retire with more rushing yards than Gore (if they are able to stay healthy of course)..Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy, DeMarco Murray, All 3 more than halfway to Gore's total with higher yards per game averages..
While I do think the more TDs he has the better, I have never heard of a 100 TD plateau for being an automatic HOFer...Its similar to the old belief that 10,000 yards rushing or 1,000 receptions meant automatic induction, they do not.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How do we rank Gore among others who are not yet on the Future Modern Set? Is he even a glaring omission at this point?
Ronde Barber, Jeff Saturday, Brian Waters, Logan Mankins, Devin Hester, Steve Smith, Jahri Evans, Jason Peters, Patrick Peterson, Navorro Bowman, Nick Mangold, Marshall Yanda, James Harrison, Vince Wilfork, Matt Ryan...
Of these, I would put Barber, Smith and Peters ahead of Gore without question...These are 30-50% HOF odds type of guys IMO...I would probably vote to add both Barber and Peters to the set...Smith, I just don't think his numbers are going to hold up and his already behind a large group of HOF eligible WRs...
Mankins, Evans, Harrison, Ryan...This is probably Gore's area, at least on my list...All guys who should be a consideration for the set, but me personally would not vote for their addition..20-30% HOF odds type of guys
Saturday, Waters, Hester, Peterson, Bowman, Mangold, Yanda, Wilfork...All great players, and the active ones still have a shot to move up, but IMO, I would have to see these guys make a HOF top 25 semifinal list before believing they have anywhere close to enough support to think they have 50%+ odds...These are more like 10-20% HOF odds...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Of the players you listed possibly scoring 100 TD's only two were running backs, which speaks to my point that the success of the passing game will take stats away from the running back position. If the majority of players to score 100 TD's are WR's or even TE's it will only help the running backs who do it stand out more.
I would love to see McCoy and Murray go for over 10,000 rushing yards in their careers but there is no way of knowing when their bodies are going to break down. I really thought MJD was going to be part of the 10,000 yard-100 TD club until his durability left after one of his best seasons in his career. I guess my point is that is just hard to project where a running back will finish there career in regards to health as they hit the wall quickly and without warning.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I would not say he is a glaring omission but if has another consistent season his inclusion in the set needs to be considered.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I agree with that...He gets to 14k yards even if it takes a couple more years, he's got to be in the discussion...
As far as 100 TDs goes, the 100 number really is just a meaningless mile marker...Above it or below it isnt going to determine anyone's HOF inclusion/exclusion...Its going to come down to his per game and per season averages...Gore has accumulated a high number of TDs, but thats because he also accumulated a high number of games and seasons.
I'm not sure what he has left in the tank..Most of the talk in Indy is that they will be bringing in a new RB starter, either through FA or draft...At best, that puts Gore in a backup/second option level...And obviously this is just assumption, as for all I know the guy could retire before the season, we just don't know..Same with the Murray's and McCoy's, as you mentioned, and I agree, its assumptions..Gore retiring with 100 TD is also an assumption as he isnt there yet either.
All we know is what he's put on film and in the stat book so far. And adding it all together, IMO, puts him at this moment around 20% HOF odds, and not worthy of inclusion to the Future HOF RC set. We should save further discussion of his candidacy after he adds to his current resume.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
For my money, once Boselli and Law are added, the closest guys that should be under consideration are Ronde Barber and Jason Peters... But at this point, we should probably just wait and see if Barber makes the top 25 in November in his first year of eligibility, and Peters, we might as well wait and see what he does in the 2017 season....
But I wouldnt be surprised to see either of them get requested, and if done to soon, they will get voted down and be in for a much longer wait...
Excellent discussions though, this is how we used to determine who to request for additions and who not...We weren't perfect but we at least were able to make the for and against cases, similar to what they do in the HOF meeting and help us make the right decisions...Every player we ever requested, after discussing and approving them here, were voted onto the set.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I understand the value of per game and per season averages, especially for players with short careers, but I don't they think can be used to discount players who produce at a consistent level of have longer careers. Not every great player has years of dominance, sometimes being great means being consistently good over a long period of time.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Here is the list of RBs who have been elected to the HOF with ZERO 1st Team All-Pro selections:
John Henry Johnson (elected as a Senior Candidate 27 years after becoming HOF eligible)
The End.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And here is the list of ALL Modern Era HOF PLAYERS who have been elected to the HOF with ZERO dominant (1st Team All-Pro) seasons...
Tim Brown
Warren Moon
John Elway
Harry Carson
Elvin Bethea
Andre Reed
Jackie Slater
Troy Aikman
Rickey Jackson
Roger Staubach
Tommy McDonald
Mike McCormack
Dante Lavelli
John Henry Johnson
With 5 or Fewer Pro Bowls and Zero Championships (Same as Frank Gore):
Dick LeBeau (Senior Committee Selection)
Bob St. Clair (Senior Committee Selection)
Jackie Smith (ALL TIME Leader in Receptions and Receiving Yards by TE at the time of his retirement...11 tries before elected)
So basically we have ONE Modern Era Player, who was not selected by the Senior Committee in the HOF with a 5 Pro Bowl, 0 1st Team All-Pro, 0 Championship profile...And that player retired as the All-Time Leader as his position (and yes Jackie Smith was an accumulator)....I'd say that puts Frank Gore's odds even lower than I thought they might be...
In fact, he might need to pass Barry for 3rd all-time behind only Walter and Emmitt to overcome his otherwise weak resume...Minimum 15k yards for Gore to have better than 50/50 HOF odds..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Lastly, here are your modern era accumulators...Guys with zero 1st Team All-Pro and Zero Championships...Look at the number of years they had to play...
Warren Moon-17 seasons
Tim Brown-17 seasons
Elvin Bethea-16 seasons
Andre Reed-16 seasons
Jackie Slater-20 seasons
Jackie Smith-16 seasons
By this measure this says that Gore will need 4 more seasons...Which should get him the 2k yards he also needs...
We now have a time frame for adding Gore to the Future HOF set...Following the 2020 season...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I wonder just how much if any the HOF voters considered Moon's CFL successes.
I am really liking the above comments. I like Gore as he is always a class act and gives 100%.
For me the HOF inductee has to have the "wow" factor. Kinda like a old Barry Sanders run. I just can't put Gore next to Gayle Sayers. I respect him and consider him a great FB player.
On the no 1st team AP selections....maybe that player played at the same time as a truly very dominant guy
such as Sayers where he won 6 1st team AP in a short time.
Didn't JHJ play at the same time as Lenny Moore? I have not seen that much film of him so I don't feel qualified to
make a statement.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
1st Team AP All-Pro RB's during John Henry Johnson's career (1954-1966):
Doak Walker
Ollie Matson-3
Lenny Moore -4
Frank Gifford-3
Joe Perry
Alan Ameche
Jim Brown-6
Jim Taylor
Tommy Mason
Gale Sayers-2
Paul Hornung
Don Perkins
Leroy Kelly
He definitely had quite a bit of top notch competition at the position, and that likely helped his case. Only 3 RBs were 1st Team All-Pros during Johnson's career who are not in the HOF.
He was a modern era finalist 8 times before getting into the HOF as a Senior selection on his 9th time as a finalist, 21 years after his retirement. He was 4th All-Time in rushing yards at the time of his retirement. He also helped Detroit win the 1957 NFL Championship.
If Gore is to become a HOFer, he's likely going to take a similar path. If he can get to 15k or be a 1st Team All-Pro in his last year or two, then he certainly would push higher in the line.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Of the 34 players who have scored at least 90 total TD's only 6 HOF eligible players are not inducted (Owens, Alexander, Holmes, Watters, James, and Bruce). Bruce and Owens have excellent resumes but they also have benefited from rule changes that improved passing and receiving numbers. Of the players in the top ten in regards to receiving yards only 3 have been inducted to the HOF. This is in stark contrast to rushing yards where 9 out of the the top 10 players have been inducted to the HOF. My simple math says 90% of the players in the top ten of rushing yards are in the HOF.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I think the "wow" factor is one component but not every player is going to have an electric running style, play defensive back like Sanders, or rush the QB like Taylor. There are so many different ways to be successful in the NFL that an absent of an amazing play should not prevent a player from being inducted to the HOF.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
That will certainly help his case, but knowing that the HOF voters, if Gore ever gets in the room, will compare him to the rest of those guys, and Gore will not compare favorably...But because he is where he is, the only reason he has any HOF odds (which I put around 20% at this point)
I will use the top 16 All-time rushers as comparisons..Only 3 of them are not in the HOF..Ed James, who has already been a finalist, Adrian Peterson, who is a 100% odds , likely 1st ballot HOFer, and Gore...
9 of the 16 were League MVPs..Not just best at their position, but best player in the NFL...8 of them won Championships...15 of the 16 were 1st Team All-Pros at least once...If Im trying to find comparable players to Gore in this group Curtis Martin would probably be the closest..The majority of the top 16 are in a different class and skillset than Gore...
Martin however had 83.6 YPG and was a 1st Team All-Pro one time...Gore is at 72.6 and historically RBs YPG decline in their last year or two, which Gore hasnt really had yet...
Really this just takes us back to the original gist of the debate...Gore is an accumulator...I think we can agree on that..Very good for a long period, never great. How many current voters have put in a RB accumulator? Again, maybe can argue Curtis Martin, He also accumulated 14k yards and 100 TDs...
Here is what one HOF voter had to say:
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/frank-gore-worthy-canton/
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nice article Jason.
Mentions Chuck Foreman......a workhorse for the Viks.
Now he is a good comparison to Gore. Similar type players
Hall of very good.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Absolutely..Great find and match..Both players with 5 Pro Bowls, Foreman also with a 1st Team All-Pro on his resume..All in his first 6 years in the league prior to injuring his knee in 1979..Can only imagine what he, along with many other players of that era would look like numbers wise if they had the same medical support as they get today. Foreman also put his numbers up in 14 game seasons! Led the league in receptions one year...Led the league in TDs another year...
I think the HOF voters have done a pretty fair job in not rewarding too many accumulators simply for staying healthy..Yes, length of career is an important measure, but if the resume doesn't match, I like that they err on the side of putting guys in who were clearly among the top 2-3 at their position for a stretch and not just an ok, 6th-7th best guy for many years...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't think of Gore as an accumulator rather just consistently good. When I think of accumulators I think of players such as Joiner and Allen who each played nearly 20 seasons and mixed some great seasons with some not so great years. What Gore lacks in accolades and championships he makes up for consistently good production. Between the way you have analyzed Gore based on per game stats, career accolades, and championships he falls short. Based on my analysis of what Gore has been able to do over the course of his career in relation to other players already in the HOF he looks like an excellent candidate. Inconsideration of our differing analysis of Gore's career and the fact that it is somewhat difficult to find a comparable player it tells me one thing-Gore is an anomaly at the running back position. My only hope is that the voters take a very good look at Gore and see how he consistently produced at a high level. He did not have the peaks and valleys of some backs like Larry Brown or Chuck Foreman but he has posted 1,000 yards nine out of twelve seasons and his yards per game average is higher than both Brown and Foreman as well.
Interesting article from Gosselin. Talk of Fame is a great blog and Gosselin is definitely one of the more informed reporters who has influence among his fellow voters, but I have noticed that once he forms an opinion he sticks to it for all he is worth. He values the All Decade lists very highly and will use those to build up or tear down a potential candidate. And as we all know the All Decade Teams are not perfect and great players can fail to make them since they are a matter of opinion and opinion can always be influenced by bias.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Well said...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
He places high value on the All-Decade lists and All-Pro's for the same reason I explained earlier in the thread...All-Pro selections and All-Decade Teams are essentially selected by the same HOF voters who are in the meeting when the final 15 are being discussed for induction. He places high value because he understands the weight that they carry when the HOF selection committee is meeting and debating and comparing the 15 players for 8 hours the day before each Super Bowl...
Is there opinion and bias involved in the HOF vote as well? Of course there is..Just ask T.O.! lol
Its mostly media guys, but many of them, like Gosselin dig very very deep into each players career for the months leading up to the meeting...They have to have pros and cons for most players...For others, like say Favre or Rice or Montana, etc..There is no discussion and no need for one...If Gore ever gets in the room, all of the things we have discussed here on both sides will be debated...And Gore's case will need to be one of the top 5 cases among the 15 being discussed that day.
If these are his PROS:
"I don't think of Gore as an accumulator rather just consistently good"
"What Gore lacks in accolades and championships he makes up for consistently good production."
" He did not have the peaks and valleys of some backs like Larry Brown or Chuck Foreman but he has posted 1,000 yards nine out of twelve seasons and his yards per game average is higher than both Brown and Foreman as well."
Then his odds are possibly even less than 20%..Hall of Very Good, not Hall Of Fame...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If Gore ever gets brought up for discussion by the voters his presenter won't be leading with any of those points. At least I hope not.lol
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I have to disagree with the above. I have already said I like F Gore. However he is no Chuck Foreman. I saw both play their entire careers. Inconsistent !!!!! Wow Double WOW. The man put up close to or 1000 yard seasons in 14 games.....on a very cold muddy Minnesota field and a trip to blizzard plagued Buffalo once per year. He was twice the reception threat as Gore...about 3000 yard in 6 years. He has about the same rec stats as Gore but in 1/2 the time. That's all he had before he had career ending injuries. He was the Viks workhorse and back then your workhorse played injured or not. Not today. As Jason mentioned.....had he had access to today's medical he would be a no brainer HOFer. He also played when O J Simpson dominated the RB position so he didn't quite the notoriety
as OJ won 5 1st Team AP's. IMO neither is a HOFer....but if I had to start a team you couldn't go wrong with either but I would choose CF as he had more of that WOW factor .
If I were a guy who ran and caught the football I would rather be doing it in San Fran then Minn.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
If I were drafting a team, I would take Foreman as well and its not close...He was a feared player on a teams with many offensive weapons...Tarkenton at QB, Sammy White, Ahmad Rashad, John Gilliam at WR..Yet Foreman led his team in rushing yards AND receptions in multiple Super Bowl seasons...Had they won even ONE of those 3 Super Bowlss, Foreman would be in the HOF even with his shortened career (which was essentially 6 seasons)..
Vikings Records those 6 years: 62-22-2, 3 Super Bowl appearances, 1 Conference Championship loss, two Divisional losses...Playoffs every single year...
Foreman's % of offensive yards
1973-27%
1974-30%
1975-36%
1976-35%
1977-34%
1978-24%
He was a HUGE part of their offensive success...Yet again, it boils sown to where do we draw the line between dominance and accumulation/career length...The line was re-drawn this past year..With a guy like Boselli leapfrogging a guy like Jacoby in the HOF line. Also Terrell Davis and Easley getting elected with the low games count..Dominance, right now, is being rewarded above career length...Gore was never dominant, that's not even debatable, that is spelled out in his low All-Pro vote counts...But he has been very good for longer than the average RB of this generation...
We don't know where they will draw the line with him, because due to his rushing totals, he's going to be a unique case and debate just as dfr52 pointed out above. But personally I rather see a RB like Foreman be put in before Gore goes in...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't think I mentioned Foreman or Brown as inconsistent but rather they did have years where there production dropped. I understand that the decrease in stats/effectiveness occurred due to injury (and possibly over use) but that does not discount what Gore has accomplished. Durability should not be used against Gore because his health has allowed him to produce at high (not elite) level for nearly every year in his career.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Agree, and i don't think it has been held against him at all over his career thus far...At the same time, at the end of a solid career, you don't take a descent player with a below avg. resume (5 PB, 0 AP, 0 SB) and say "this guy is HOF material" simply because he was able to stay healthy and provide good (not great) level of play for longer than usual...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And therein lies the question, when does good become great? Because Gore is an anomaly who neither falls into the brief career (less than 10 years) with many awards category or longer career with at least a few honors his resume could be viewed in different ways. My hope is that his name is eventually brought up by the HOF voters and they take a deeper look into his career and don't simply write him off as a guy who was just lucky to stay healthy. Durability requires a combination of a player taking care of their body and being blessed with the ability to take a pounding (i.e. a physical gift like speed, strength, and agility). When cases are presented for players you never hear comments like a guy was "lucky top be fast or "he was fortunate to have a strong arm". Rather those qualities are chalked up to a player's skill set. In my opinion durability should be considered in the same context. I also believe Gore avoids the accumulator status because he wasn't just cranking out 800 yards season after 800 yard season. Players who produce consistent 1,000 seasons for the majority of their careers are pretty rare.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
1,000 yard per season in 2016 IS 800 yards per season in the 14 game seasons..lol
62.5 yards per game to get to 1,000 now, is the same as 875 yards in a season prior to 1978...
Again, this is why yards per game and yards per attempt carry have proven to carry more weight when it comes to RB HOF voting decisions..Most of the RBs in the HOF played pre-1978...To compare their totals to players in 2016 is like comparing apples to steak...
The ONLY THING Gore has going for him is that he has accumulated more yards rushing than all but 7 other RBs ever have...If he decides to retire before the 2017 season, he has virtually 0% odds of making the HOF...To me, that is an indictment on him already...If he was TRULY GREAT, 13k yards would be more than enough, just as it has been for every other RB before him..If he gets and stays in the top 5 until he becomes HOF eligible he will have to be considered, but will have a tough road...Short of that, I just don't see any argument for him in the room whats going to shine a light on him as being one of the best 5 of the 15 candidates in the room...
He's definitely going to be an anomaly...And Maybe he becomes the next Terrell Davis, just from the opposite direction and resets the standards by which RB careers are judged...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I should of mentioned in my previous post that I was referring to those running backs who played a majority of their careers during the current 16 game schedule rather than those who only played 14 or fewer games a season. Gore's yards per game average is better than modern HOF'ers: Bettis, Faulk, Thomas, Allen, Harris, and Riggins. Gore's yards per attempt are tied with Payton and better than: Dorsett, Faulk, Tomlinson, Campbell, Thomas, Smith, Harris, Allen, Martin, Bettis, and Riggins.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Granted....one play does not a career make, but the fire is there.....that is still apparent. I hope the guy plays 8 more seasons for 8000 more yards.
That was a "wow" play!
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
CROWN HIM! He made a Tip Toe TD? HOF..lol
I really look forward to seeing where his career ends and I hope we are all around when he becomes HOF eligible. Going to be interesting to see how his candidacy plays out.
I'm with TmbrWolf22, I hope he plays 8 more years and 8k more yards so there is no doubt..As of today, he's got more work to do if he wants to join the ranks in Canton IMO, and in the opinion of at least a couple of voters who have discussed his odds.
Heck, he could just play ONE more year and earn a 1st Team All-Pro or a SB ring, and I would automatically bump his odds to 50%!
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I get that it was not a Jim Brown/Earl Campbell break away down the middle of the field where they run over 3 defenders or a Sayers/Sanders play where they juke all eleven guys on defense and out run everyone to the end zone but it was an outstanding play. His tip toe touchdown run required body control and balance that was simply amazing and he made it look simple.
I have no idea where he actually stands with the current crop of voters but if he has that type of dominant season I would put him at 100% to make the Hall of Fame. That would probably move him into the top 5 rushing and well over 100 total TD's. Under this scenario Gore would be a 6 time Pro Bowler, 1 time 1st team All Pro, Super Bowl Champion, the 5th all time rusher, and well over 100 TD's. That is one heck of a resume and the voters would recognize that.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I was kidding on the play, it was a nice play...
Ok, you sold me....In that scenario, I'll increase his odds to 60%...
Now, what are the odds of that scenario happening? .60%? lol
Well, I think I do have a pretty good idea of where he stands with the current crop of voters, and it's exactly around the odds that I gave in my first post on the Gore subject...In or around 20% at the moment...He doesn't have all the selling points that scenario provides..And IMO, with so many years of being just a good solid accumulator (who certainly made some nice plays over his career) he needs that type of resume scenario...Or he needs somewhere between 14-15k yards rushing and probably will need 100 TDs as well..Thats just to get into the room as a top 15 candidate one day...
Im interested to see if the Colts new GM brings in a RB1 or RB2 to the Colts..Will give us an early idea of what his team feels he has left in the tank. I do believe he will play this season...Enough to get to 14k+ or 100+? Remains to be seen
Its too bad I've come off as a Gore hater, as I am not..I think he's been a very solid, dependable back..Both for the 49ers, and in his later years here with the Colts...But I think it is important, particularly when it comes to the Future Modern HOF set that we are careful annointing guys to the set who may not be as good in the eyes of the voters as they are in our own eyes...Thats how we end up with needing to REMOVE cards/players from the set...Much more prudent to be cautious with non-slam dunk guys, especially while they are still playing..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I remember watching that game last year, and thinking wow...for an older dude he really wasnt being denied on that play. I didnt mean to label you a Gore hater....all of what you are saying about his chances at HOF at this point in his career make sense. I just wanted to share that one play....lol
Now if Gore can tip toe thru the tulips I'll put him in my HOF .
He has to sing it as well.
Nice play.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
You didn't, I labelled myself that as I feel like every post on Gore, I'm having to put his negatives to help bring some clarity to his situation...I think he's a very good RB and has been for many years...But If I put on Adrian Peterson's top 10 plays, and compare them to Frank Gore's top 10 plays, it's not even in the same hemisphere...So when I read that they both belong equally in the HOF, I just don't see it...Then I compare Gore's resume to other HOF RBs as I did previously in the thread and it leads me more down the road of very long odds...
But he is over 13k yards, and that is a significant number...A few years back, when RBs hit 10k yards many of us assumed they were HOF bound, which has turned out NOT to be the case unless they were dominant both on paper and on game film...At this point we can't be certain how Gore will finish his career..Until then, his HOF resume is a work in progress...He's not a guy who could retire today and be considered a likely HOFer IMO..Hence, not yet worthy for the Future HOF Modern set, which is really the entire basis of our discussions on him here.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.