All anyone asks for here is consistency. Nobody expects him to hit dramatic walk off home runs every day, or anything of the sort. He simply is asked and expected to perform up to the level his status commands.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Ax, you seriously have a problem with reading comprehension. Did I NOT just say that nobody expects him to hit walk off home runs every day ? Consistency based on the hype and pedestal YOU and others place him on. If you dont think he can live up to the elite status of player you and others consider him part of, then why consider him part of that group in the first place ?
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Ax, you seriously have a problem with reading comprehension. Did I NOT just say that nobody expects him to hit walk off home runs every day ? Consistency based on the hype and pedestal YOU and others place him on. If you dont think he can live up to the elite status of player you and others consider him part of, then why consider him part of that group in the first place ? >>
When the guys does well, you do not like him, when he does not do well, you guys do not like him, just because he is paid a ton, you expect him to get a hit in every at bat. If the Yankees do not make the playoffs, I bet A-Rod gets all the blame, whatever happened to being a TEAM!!!!!!!!!!
Edited to say, trade him to Detroit for Inge and Thames, he would put them right over the top, I mean, it is a fair trade, because he sucks so much, correct???
Uh, this is pretty consistent. Not the stats from the last month, but from the last 8 years!! Notice the RBI and Home Run totals. One of the most consistent of all time, and that's why he got the big contract. He's struggling a bit now, I just doubt it continues. I think some people are just never going to like the guy. Just my opinion.
Uh, this is pretty consistent. Not the stats from the last month, but from the last 8 years!! Notice the RBI and Home Run totals. One of the most consistent of all time, and that's why he got the big contract. He's struggling a bit now, I just doubt it continues. I think some people are just never going to like the guy. Just my opinion.
shawn >>
My point exactly, along with a few others on this board, great players like A-Rod will almost always end a season with similar numbers they have put up over their careers, barring any injuries!
<< <i>All anyone asks for here is consistency. Nobody expects him to hit dramatic walk off home runs every day, or anything of the sort. He simply is asked and expected to perform up to the level his status commands. >>
Steve, how can you say no one is questioning his consistency?? This quote from a few posts ago seems to indicate otherwise.
All you guys that defend Arod just love to post numbers. Its as if we dont know what numbers he has put up over the years and you are shedding some light on the matter. Most of the people that throw out his numbers as justification are the same people who will rip Peyton Manning as a guy who puts up numbers but cant get it done when it matters most.
In the end, nothing will change my mind about the guy. He may go on to put up the greatest numbers the game has ever seen. I dont care. I didnt want him when they signed him and I dont want him now. I would MUCH rather have seen the Yankees invest the money they spent on him by signing pitching. For what he is making they could have had 2 top of the rotation starters. Pitching is what wins games, period. Some of you rant on about the 2 or 3 guys you would trade from your team to get him, and NEVER do any of you mention any pitchers in your fantasy trades. Why ? Because pitching is what wins and we all know it. The first chance the Yankees have to trade him for pitching they should take it, otherwise it wouldnt be worth trading him for position players. It isnt Arods fault if they dont win, it isnt his fault if they dont make the playoffs, it isnt his fault if they dont win the world series. I would never put the blame on one player for not achieving that TEAM goal. What I will do is state over and over that I would have rather seen the money spent on him going to pitching.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
are you forgetting it was Arod who got the yankees into the second round of the playoffs and beat the twins in game 4?
This crap about 'not being clutch' is just that - crap. You yankee 'fans' have been on his nuts since day 1, and there's nothing he could do that would ever get him embraced in NY.
Why don't you just petition for a trade and get him playing somewhere where he'd be appreciated?
I havnt forgotten anything. I am the one who actually watches the games, not you. You choose to read about games and players and talk later. I never said he didnt get any clutch hits, I just dont think he comes through often enough. Either way, it is my opinion and it wont change for you or anyone else.
I have ALSO repeatedly stated that I thought the Yankees should have spent the money on pitching instead of acquiring him. I still feel that way, and if a trade for top flight pitching came about then I would welcome it. Anyone who understands the game and what it takes to win would gladly take top end pitching over ANY hitter, ANY day.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
I havnt forgotten anything. I am the one who actually watches the games, not you. You choose to read about games and players and talk later. I never said he didnt get any clutch hits, I just dont think he comes through often enough. Either way, it is my opinion and it wont change for you or anyone else. >>
So there you have it...no matter how many times it happens, you won't change your mind about him. Seems pretty closed minded to me. Oh well, the life of a yankee fan, they think they can do no wrong.
<< <i> I have ALSO repeatedly stated that I thought the Yankees should have spent the money on pitching instead of acquiring him. I still feel that way, and if a trade for top flight pitching came about then I would welcome it. Anyone who understands the game and what it takes to win would gladly take top end pitching over ANY hitter, ANY day. >>
So you're saying Steinbrenner doesn't understand the game and what it takes to win? He's taken hitters over pitchers the past several years...are you saying you know better than the owner of the yankees?
Bri, that is an accurate and logical statement, but that is not nearly what has been presented about Arod on these boards. He has been bashed by most for simply not being clutch, not because the money should have been spent elsewhere.
I still have to ask, what does a player have to do exactly to be considered clutch? When it comes to Arod it seems the criteria is very stiff, and if applied to all MLB players in history, there would not be very many who could be considered clutch.
There are three ares where a player can be clutch, 1)Hitting exceptional with men on, 2)Hitting well in the late innings, 3)Excelling in Highly meaningful games. Only one of those occur with enough regularity to draw any meaningful conlcusions, yet it is the last two criteria in which the labels are usually affixed. Even then, usually the good moments are remembered, but the bad ones seem to get brushed under the rug i.e., Derek Jeter's very poor batting with men on base in the post season. Those last two areas simply don't occur enough to warrant labeling a player a choker, or clutch. It is a very unfair practice that is wrought with difficulties.
Then the next question, to what degree or how many times must a player do it to be considered clutch. Is 10 walk off hits clutch, and only 5 not? Is raising your SLG% with men on 35 points clutch, and 15 not?
It has been said that Arod has to win an important game late to be considered clutch. FOr one, he has done that already(but those usually get ignored or brushed away because hatred prevails), and two if the bar is being set at a very high level then it precludes many of the best players ever from being considered clutch.
The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. Of course, winning a ring entitles many things out of a players control to begin with, and to judge an individual in a team sport on how many titles his team won has very little merit on the worth of that individual player.
I decided to lift my self imposed ban on posting...a ban I put on for taking part in immature conversation.
I don't think its a question of the Yanks spending ARod's money elsewhere, or not. They had a chance to get him, and they did - money was no object. If they didn't sign him a few years ago, it's not like they would have taken that $252 million (or whatever part of that the Yanks are actually paying) and spent it on pitching. The team would be the same as it is now, just without him (and probably out of the playoffs last season, too).
<< <i>The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. >>
Interesting quote. I'm sure that's going to spark some responses...
<< <i>The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. >>
Interesting quote. I'm sure that's going to spark some responses... >>
It's going to spark the usual rhetoric from yankee fans...Mattingly 'knew how to win' and it wasn't his fault the teams were bad. Mattingly was 'clutch'. etc etc. The same old garbage we've come to expect.
Arod wins an MVP, provided a key hit that won the first postseason series he was in with the yanks, and he's still lustily booed. I chalk it up to jealousy, pure and simple. They saw someone not on the yanks become the highest paid player, someone not on the yanks that was the best in the game, and they hated him for it. They just couldn't get over that jealousy when he became a yankee.
CNN recapping the day in sports, guy sez: " And arod finally comes through in the clutch". I guess he is a disgruntled, jealous Yankee fan that yearns for the good ole days of Donny baseball.
Yep, i guess all the sports talking heads in NY and on ESPN that have been saying the same thing are all wrong too? only you are correct? jeese the FAN spent almost 30 minutes on this topic today.
lol ramble on like a drunk? that is the 9th time you have asked me about pedro. Like I care if he got lit up today. you think that bothers me? lol you really are dumb.
so lets recap. You make the same stupid statement over and over in a few threads and you have the balls to say that i ramble on like a drunk?
<< No, but I can piss in your mouth. I will post anywhere I choose you mutt.
Steve >>
Sorry, unlike your lady, not into the whole piss thing.
How did Pedro pitch today?
I guess you don't remm saying this . Find my first post it will be AFTER 3.04
and I'll post when I first brought in lady folk: ==========================================
Thursday June 29, 2006 3:14 AM (NEW!)
Jeese you really are stupid. My lady? how about your mother? I hear she likes a good golden shower. As for Pedro, look in the Mets thread dopey. I already said he got lit up today. If you are having trouble I'll link you to it.
I havnt forgotten anything. I am the one who actually watches the games, not you. You choose to read about games and players and talk later. I never said he didnt get any clutch hits, I just dont think he comes through often enough. Either way, it is my opinion and it wont change for you or anyone else. >>
So there you have it...no matter how many times it happens, you won't change your mind about him. Seems pretty closed minded to me. Oh well, the life of a yankee fan, they think they can do no wrong.
<< <i> I have ALSO repeatedly stated that I thought the Yankees should have spent the money on pitching instead of acquiring him. I still feel that way, and if a trade for top flight pitching came about then I would welcome it. Anyone who understands the game and what it takes to win would gladly take top end pitching over ANY hitter, ANY day. >>
So you're saying Steinbrenner doesn't understand the game and what it takes to win? He's taken hitters over pitchers the past several years...are you saying you know better than the owner of the yankees? >>
I absolutely, no doubt in my mind know better as to what it takes to win than Steinbrenner. He knows how to spend money. He knows how to put fannies in the seats by signing NAMES.
The Yankees built their championship teams of 1996-2000 when he was out of the game and not able to mess things up. That was when they were able to build a core of talent from their minor leagues and add pitching and a few key position players. Gene Michael, Buck Showalter, and scouts were able to put together a championship team, not George.
Now, back to Arod. I dont know if I will change my mind about him. Maybe my mind will change, maybe it wont. Either way, it is MY mind, and MY opinion, and I am allowed to have my opinion and change it whenever I feel like it. Just like you and others are allowed your opinions.
Either way, I do NOT blame Arods performance on the Yankees not winning the world series. I completely agree that anyone who does is making a foolish judgement and need only look at Mattingly for proof. This is a team game, won by the play of a team, and in particular pitching and defense. I wont even blame Randy Johnson for not getting them there. I wont because I feel that was another pitiful move by Steinbrenner in signing an aging, broken down former great to a multi year contract and returning him to the American league with vastly superior hitting to face. Again, that signing was a move by George motivated by money and putting butts in the seats, and not a move an intelligent baseball mind would have pursued.
Skinpinch, I think we went over this before, and I agreed that most of the bad performances by Yankees during their run were overlooked because they had enough guys to cover it up on any particular day. When Jeter failed, Brosius stepped up. When O'neill failed, maybe David Justice or Jim Leyritz had a great day to cover it up, and so on.
The numbers may very well show that Arod has in fact come through in what are typically seen as clutch moments just as much or more as anyone else. Unfortunately for him he arrived too late and did not get to be part of the championship teams. For that he is receiving alot of grief. Right or wrong (and I honestly do believe it's wrong), until they Yankees win again with Arod in the lineup, with him coming up very very big, that is what will be remembered.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i> The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. Of course, winning a ring entitles many things out of a players control to begin with, and to judge an individual in a team sport on how many titles his team won has very little merit on the worth of that individual player. >>
All one has to do is take a peek at the downright miserable pitching staffs the Yankees had during Mattingly's career. And CT Sox, as much as you like to cry your little eyes out about Jim Rice I would think you would know better.
Don Mattingly was the ONLY constant for an entire generation of Yankee fans.
Speaking of Donny Baseball was he a member of any of the Yankees championships? I know as a player he was not. I believe he retired and then the following season the Yanks won it (A nasty kick in the balls) Does he have a ring as a bench coach or anything?
no. Donnie was a rookie the year after their last WS appearance and retired a year before the next. He came up at the wrong time as the Yankees were truly bumbling fools from the early 80's into the very early 90's. Ron Guidry was the Yankees best pitcher of Mattingly's career and that was for only the tail end of it. Those were some sorry sorry pitching staffs.
As great as Donnie Baseball was, ya can't make chicken salad outta chicken s__t...the pitching during his era was...well, not to good to be polite. When Dennis Rasmussen is your best pitcher, you're in a world of hurt.
That is the whole point about teammates and rings. Arod has the same claims. That is why it is absurd to judge the merit of an individual based on team championships. Heck, even with all the right teammates it still take good fortune, and everybody playing their best at the right time to win a title...not to mention the pure luck moments like which way the close calls go, or the ball bounces.
The point is, one simply cannot trash Arod for no rings, and then not do the same to Mattingly. Heck, based on the oversimplified logic of many baseball fans who bash based on bias, I would expect those fans to say, "After Mattingly left, the Yankees won without him." That is said about Arod all the time about the teams he was on...though those teams never did win(and they improved for other reasons, none of which have anything to do with Arod leaving). If that is said about Arod, it has to be said about Mattingly too. Even more so, since Mattingly's team won a WS after he left(and Mattingly wasn't that good of a player then, so his departure may actually have helped).
If one is going to pick and choose what they apply(or proclaim) based on bias or personal preferecne, that is fine. But then it really has no meaning or does not remotely resemble truth. It then becomes no different or meaningful than saying, "I prefer cheese on my hamburger."
For the record, the Yankees ranked 3,3,8, and 6th in ERA during Mattingly's prime run. In 1985 they were first in runs scored...it sure doesn't hurt to have Rickey Henderson at the top. So in reality, Mattingly's teams had comparable support as Arod's Yankee teams. Arod's NY staffs ranked 6th, and 9th in ERA. The luck factor is so prevalant!! If the 1985 Yankees played in the West, then they were in the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, get out the dice .
I hear what you're sayin Skinpinch, Henderson was a quality player, and let's not forget big Dave Winfeild either - You mentioned 1985, that was mattingly's MVP year, and the afore mentioned Rassmusen's best year ,however the bottom line is the Yankees during Mattingly's time were bad, real bad. Anyone remember in 1990 when the Yank's lone All Star was the immortal Roberto Kelly? That's about all you need to know about the Mattingly era.
I to this day feel bad about his "luck", or lack thereof, in his timing for retirement. You'll recall in 1994 the Yanks were in first place and playin' some strong ball when BAM! The season goes up in smoke due to the strike (also cost Tony Gwynn a crack at .400) and the following year the Yanks make the playoffs and lose that hearbreaker 15 inning game to Seattle,*sigh*
I know the Yanks had already brought in Tino, but if Donnie had stuck around one more year, just ONE MORE YEAR!!!!!!! he'd have his ring.*wipes away tear*
One reason the Yanks were so bad around that time was that the boss was banished from the game. IMO he did not want the yanks doing well while he was away. And his son and son in law were not allowed to do anything of note.
Isn't it funny that before he was banned they were good?
and when he returned they again started winning?
If you look into this theory you will see that it fits.
For so many of those years they had great hitting but no pitching.
then when he got banned, they did not have the hitting or the pitching. I think they even finished last one year during that time
Yes, Donny getting hurt did not help matters but that kid Mass stepped up that one year. I think it was 1990?
edited to add:
bri i think by 1996 the boss was in fact back in the game. his suspension was from 1989 thru 1994 I think. The drafting of talent from the losing years produced the jeters, williams etc. gene Michael can be thanked for that.
Buck showalter also deserves some credit here as well.
from the internet:
On July 30, 1990, Vincent banned New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner from baseball for life after Steinbrenner paid Howie Spira, a small-time gambler, $40,000 for "dirt" on his outfielder Dave Winfield after Winfield sued Steinbrenner for failing to pay his foundation the $300,000 guaranteed in his contract. Steinbrenner was eventually reinstated in 1993 (one year after Vincent left office).
That was exactly my point. They were able to build the core of players prior to the 96 season while George was out of the game. By 96 when he returned the team had already been put in place by Michael and Showalter and co. It was while he was banned that they were able to keep their young talent and add key players.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Comments
With that said, there is no proof he or anyone else does that much better when his team is always behind. I'd take him on my time.
Oh, and he did hit a walk off two run home run today to win by a run in the eleventh.
"Oh that's just one time...he won't do it again."
I'm telling you, the guy can never win with those 'fans'.
All anyone asks for here is consistency. Nobody expects him to hit dramatic walk off home runs every day, or anything of the sort. He simply is asked and expected to perform up to the level his status commands.
-- Yogi Berra
Ortiz, with all of his 'he's the most clutch ever!' claims has all of 10 walk off hits in 3 years.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Ax, you seriously have a problem with reading comprehension. Did I NOT just say that nobody expects him to hit walk off home runs every day ? Consistency based on the hype and pedestal YOU and others place him on. If you dont think he can live up to the elite status of player you and others consider him part of, then why consider him part of that group in the first place ? >>
When the guys does well, you do not like him, when he does not do well, you guys do not like him, just because he is paid a ton, you expect him to get a hit in every at bat. If the Yankees do not make the playoffs, I bet A-Rod gets all the blame, whatever happened to being a TEAM!!!!!!!!!!
Edited to say, trade him to Detroit for Inge and Thames, he would put them right over the top, I mean, it is a fair trade, because he sucks so much, correct???
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
1998 22 SEA AL 161 686 123 213 35 5 42 124 46 13 45 121 .310 .360 .560 384 3 4 0 10 12
1999 23 SEA AL 129 502 110 143 25 0 42 111 21 7 56 109 .285 .357 .586 294 1 8 2 5 12
2000 24 SEA AL 148 554 134 175 34 2 41 132 15 4 100 121 .316 .420 .606 336 0 11 5 7 10
2001 25 TEX AL 162 632 133 201 34 1 52 135 18 3 75 131 .318 .399 .622 393 0 9 6 16 17
2002 26 TEX AL 162 624 125 187 27 2 57 142 9 4 87 122 .300 .392 .623 389 0 4 12 10 14
2003 27 TEX AL 161 607 124 181 30 6 47 118 17 3 87 126 .298 .396 .600 364 0 6 10 15 16
2004 28 NYY AL 155 601 112 172 24 2 36 106 28 4 80 131 .286 .375 .512 308 0 7 6 10 18
2005 29 NYY AL 162 605 124 194 29 1 48 130 21 6 91 139 .321 .421 .610 369 0 3 8 16 8
Uh, this is pretty consistent. Not the stats from the last month, but from the last 8 years!! Notice the RBI and Home Run totals. One of the most consistent of all time, and that's why he got the big contract. He's struggling a bit now, I just doubt it continues. I think some people are just never going to like the guy. Just my opinion.
shawn
<< <i>Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
1998 22 SEA AL 161 686 123 213 35 5 42 124 46 13 45 121 .310 .360 .560 384 3 4 0 10 12
1999 23 SEA AL 129 502 110 143 25 0 42 111 21 7 56 109 .285 .357 .586 294 1 8 2 5 12
2000 24 SEA AL 148 554 134 175 34 2 41 132 15 4 100 121 .316 .420 .606 336 0 11 5 7 10
2001 25 TEX AL 162 632 133 201 34 1 52 135 18 3 75 131 .318 .399 .622 393 0 9 6 16 17
2002 26 TEX AL 162 624 125 187 27 2 57 142 9 4 87 122 .300 .392 .623 389 0 4 12 10 14
2003 27 TEX AL 161 607 124 181 30 6 47 118 17 3 87 126 .298 .396 .600 364 0 6 10 15 16
2004 28 NYY AL 155 601 112 172 24 2 36 106 28 4 80 131 .286 .375 .512 308 0 7 6 10 18
2005 29 NYY AL 162 605 124 194 29 1 48 130 21 6 91 139 .321 .421 .610 369 0 3 8 16 8
Uh, this is pretty consistent. Not the stats from the last month, but from the last 8 years!! Notice the RBI and Home Run totals. One of the most consistent of all time, and that's why he got the big contract. He's struggling a bit now, I just doubt it continues. I think some people are just never going to like the guy. Just my opinion.
shawn >>
My point exactly, along with a few others on this board, great players like A-Rod will almost always end a season with similar numbers they have put up over their careers, barring any injuries!
When he hit the homer the first thought that went thru my mind was
"it is about time"
Steve
<< <i>All anyone asks for here is consistency. Nobody expects him to hit dramatic walk off home runs every day, or anything of the sort. He simply is asked and expected to perform up to the level his status commands. >>
Steve, how can you say no one is questioning his consistency?? This quote from a few posts ago seems to indicate otherwise.
shawn
In the end, nothing will change my mind about the guy. He may go on to put up the greatest numbers the game has ever seen. I dont care. I didnt want him when they signed him and I dont want him now. I would MUCH rather have seen the Yankees invest the money they spent on him by signing pitching. For what he is making they could have had 2 top of the rotation starters. Pitching is what wins games, period. Some of you rant on about the 2 or 3 guys you would trade from your team to get him, and NEVER do any of you mention any pitchers in your fantasy trades. Why ? Because pitching is what wins and we all know it. The first chance the Yankees have to trade him for pitching they should take it, otherwise it wouldnt be worth trading him for position players. It isnt Arods fault if they dont win, it isnt his fault if they dont make the playoffs, it isnt his fault if they dont win the world series. I would never put the blame on one player for not achieving that TEAM goal. What I will do is state over and over that I would have rather seen the money spent on him going to pitching.
-- Yogi Berra
are you forgetting it was Arod who got the yankees into the second round of the playoffs and beat the twins in game 4?
This crap about 'not being clutch' is just that - crap. You yankee 'fans' have been on his nuts since day 1, and there's nothing he could do that would ever get him embraced in NY.
Why don't you just petition for a trade and get him playing somewhere where he'd be appreciated?
I havnt forgotten anything. I am the one who actually watches the games, not you. You choose to read about games and players and talk later. I never said he didnt get any clutch hits, I just dont think he comes through often enough. Either way, it is my opinion and it wont change for you or anyone else.
I have ALSO repeatedly stated that I thought the Yankees should have spent the money on pitching instead of acquiring him. I still feel that way, and if a trade for top flight pitching came about then I would welcome it. Anyone who understands the game and what it takes to win would gladly take top end pitching over ANY hitter, ANY day.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Ax,
I havnt forgotten anything. I am the one who actually watches the games, not you. You choose to read about games and players and talk later. I never said he didnt get any clutch hits, I just dont think he comes through often enough. Either way, it is my opinion and it wont change for you or anyone else. >>
So there you have it...no matter how many times it happens, you won't change your mind about him. Seems pretty closed minded to me. Oh well, the life of a yankee fan, they think they can do no wrong.
<< <i> I have ALSO repeatedly stated that I thought the Yankees should have spent the money on pitching instead of acquiring him. I still feel that way, and if a trade for top flight pitching came about then I would welcome it. Anyone who understands the game and what it takes to win would gladly take top end pitching over ANY hitter, ANY day. >>
So you're saying Steinbrenner doesn't understand the game and what it takes to win? He's taken hitters over pitchers the past several years...are you saying you know better than the owner of the yankees?
I still have to ask, what does a player have to do exactly to be considered clutch? When it comes to Arod it seems the criteria is very stiff, and if applied to all MLB players in history, there would not be very many who could be considered clutch.
There are three ares where a player can be clutch, 1)Hitting exceptional with men on, 2)Hitting well in the late innings, 3)Excelling in Highly meaningful games. Only one of those occur with enough regularity to draw any meaningful conlcusions, yet it is the last two criteria in which the labels are usually affixed. Even then, usually the good moments are remembered, but the bad ones seem to get brushed under the rug i.e., Derek Jeter's very poor batting with men on base in the post season. Those last two areas simply don't occur enough to warrant labeling a player a choker, or clutch. It is a very unfair practice that is wrought with difficulties.
Then the next question, to what degree or how many times must a player do it to be considered clutch. Is 10 walk off hits clutch, and only 5 not? Is raising your SLG% with men on 35 points clutch, and 15 not?
It has been said that Arod has to win an important game late to be considered clutch. FOr one, he has done that already(but those usually get ignored or brushed away because hatred prevails), and two if the bar is being set at a very high level then it precludes many of the best players ever from being considered clutch.
The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. Of course, winning a ring entitles many things out of a players control to begin with, and to judge an individual in a team sport on how many titles his team won has very little merit on the worth of that individual player.
I decided to lift my self imposed ban on posting...a ban I put on for taking part in immature conversation.
<< <i>The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. >>
Interesting quote. I'm sure that's going to spark some responses...
<< <i>
<< <i>The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. >>
Interesting quote. I'm sure that's going to spark some responses... >>
It's going to spark the usual rhetoric from yankee fans...Mattingly 'knew how to win' and it wasn't his fault the teams were bad. Mattingly was 'clutch'. etc etc. The same old garbage we've come to expect.
Arod wins an MVP, provided a key hit that won the first postseason series he was in with the yanks, and he's still lustily booed. I chalk it up to jealousy, pure and simple. They saw someone not on the yanks become the highest paid player, someone not on the yanks that was the best in the game, and they hated him for it. They just couldn't get over that jealousy when he became a yankee.
It's pathetic, to tell you the truth.
Steve
Clown.
Steve
And Arod hit a walk off home run...he's been in a slump...what do you want them to say, nothing?
God you really are a moron...don't you have anything better to do at 3:15 am than ramble like a drunk?
Hey, how'd Pedro pitch today?
so lets recap. You make the same stupid statement over and over in a few threads and you have the balls to say that i ramble on like a drunk?
Typical of you axhole.
Steve
Hey, Arod hit a walk off home run today...is he 'clutch' now?
my waistline? lol That the best you can come up with?
No, he needs a few more hits in clutch situations. Less GDP
Steve
I don't think so!!!
In the past you have brought up my mother too.
Now when you get a taste of your own words you in typical fasion cry.
i asked a simple question earlier. You as is your way took it wrong.
Instead of replying like jery did and informing me that they indeed were at 500 you began a stupid pissing match.
screw you, and your mother.
SD
<< <i>listen you idiot You brought up my wife first.
In the past you have brought up my mother too.
Now when you get a taste of your own words you in typical fasion cry.
i asked a simple question earlier. You as is your way took it wrong.
Instead of replying like jery did and informing me that they indeed were at 500 you began a stupid pissing match.
screw you, and your mother.
SD >>
Saved for posterity's sake.
I didn't bring up your wife...not sure where you get that...I think you need help.
Good night WP!!!
Thursday June 29, 2006 3:04 AM (NEW!)
<< No, but I can piss in your mouth. I will post anywhere I choose you mutt.
Steve >>
Sorry, unlike your lady, not into the whole piss thing.
How did Pedro pitch today?
I guess you don't remm saying this . Find my first post it will be AFTER 3.04
and I'll post when I first brought in lady folk:
==========================================
Thursday June 29, 2006 3:14 AM (NEW!)
Jeese you really are stupid. My lady? how about your mother? I hear she likes a good golden shower. As for Pedro, look in the Mets thread dopey. I already said he got lit up today. If you are having trouble I'll link you to it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 minutes later you twit.
and it was not the first time.
edited as i found that this post was the earliest I mentioned ladyfolk in retaliation.
Steve
at 3.04 you did indeed bring up my wife.
tem ninutes later I brought in your mother.
this of course started when you told me to go piss up a flagpole at:
1241 am
Hey, WP, you wanna go piss up a flagpole and stay the hell out of my thread?
Steve
edited to add: as is his MO, when proved wrong he runs and hides.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ax,
I havnt forgotten anything. I am the one who actually watches the games, not you. You choose to read about games and players and talk later. I never said he didnt get any clutch hits, I just dont think he comes through often enough. Either way, it is my opinion and it wont change for you or anyone else. >>
So there you have it...no matter how many times it happens, you won't change your mind about him. Seems pretty closed minded to me. Oh well, the life of a yankee fan, they think they can do no wrong.
<< <i> I have ALSO repeatedly stated that I thought the Yankees should have spent the money on pitching instead of acquiring him. I still feel that way, and if a trade for top flight pitching came about then I would welcome it. Anyone who understands the game and what it takes to win would gladly take top end pitching over ANY hitter, ANY day. >>
So you're saying Steinbrenner doesn't understand the game and what it takes to win? He's taken hitters over pitchers the past several years...are you saying you know better than the owner of the yankees? >>
I absolutely, no doubt in my mind know better as to what it takes to win than Steinbrenner. He knows how to spend money. He knows how to put fannies in the seats by signing NAMES.
The Yankees built their championship teams of 1996-2000 when he was out of the game and not able to mess things up. That was when they were able to build a core of talent from their minor leagues and add pitching and a few key position players. Gene Michael, Buck Showalter, and scouts were able to put together a championship team, not George.
Now, back to Arod. I dont know if I will change my mind about him. Maybe my mind will change, maybe it wont. Either way, it is MY mind, and MY opinion, and I am allowed to have my opinion and change it whenever I feel like it. Just like you and others are allowed your opinions.
Either way, I do NOT blame Arods performance on the Yankees not winning the world series. I completely agree that anyone who does is making a foolish judgement and need only look at Mattingly for proof. This is a team game, won by the play of a team, and in particular pitching and defense. I wont even blame Randy Johnson for not getting them there. I wont because I feel that was another pitiful move by Steinbrenner in signing an aging, broken down former great to a multi year contract and returning him to the American league with vastly superior hitting to face. Again, that signing was a move by George motivated by money and putting butts in the seats, and not a move an intelligent baseball mind would have pursued.
Skinpinch, I think we went over this before, and I agreed that most of the bad performances by Yankees during their run were overlooked because they had enough guys to cover it up on any particular day. When Jeter failed, Brosius stepped up. When O'neill failed, maybe David Justice or Jim Leyritz had a great day to cover it up, and so on.
The numbers may very well show that Arod has in fact come through in what are typically seen as clutch moments just as much or more as anyone else. Unfortunately for him he arrived too late and did not get to be part of the championship teams. For that he is receiving alot of grief. Right or wrong (and I honestly do believe it's wrong), until they Yankees win again with Arod in the lineup, with him coming up very very big, that is what will be remembered.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
The oddest thing I find is Yankee fans bashing Arod for not bringing NY a WS ring, then on the other hand Don Mattingly is Donny baseball, who knows how to play and win. It is fine and dandy to not like Arod for greed, or to love Mattingly for his personality, but one cannot rip Arod for no rings, and then not apply that same standard to Mattingly. Of course, winning a ring entitles many things out of a players control to begin with, and to judge an individual in a team sport on how many titles his team won has very little merit on the worth of that individual player.
>>
All one has to do is take a peek at the downright miserable pitching staffs the Yankees had during Mattingly's career. And CT Sox, as much as you like to cry your little eyes out about Jim Rice I would think you would know better.
Don Mattingly was the ONLY constant for an entire generation of Yankee fans.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
no. Donnie was a rookie the year after their last WS appearance and retired a year before the next. He came up at the wrong time as the Yankees were truly bumbling fools from the early 80's into the very early 90's. Ron Guidry was the Yankees best pitcher of Mattingly's career and that was for only the tail end of it. Those were some sorry sorry pitching staffs.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The point is, one simply cannot trash Arod for no rings, and then not do the same to Mattingly. Heck, based on the oversimplified logic of many baseball fans who bash based on bias, I would expect those fans to say, "After Mattingly left, the Yankees won without him." That is said about Arod all the time about the teams he was on...though those teams never did win(and they improved for other reasons, none of which have anything to do with Arod leaving). If that is said about Arod, it has to be said about Mattingly too. Even more so, since Mattingly's team won a WS after he left(and Mattingly wasn't that good of a player then, so his departure may actually have helped).
If one is going to pick and choose what they apply(or proclaim) based on bias or personal preferecne, that is fine. But then it really has no meaning or does not remotely resemble truth. It then becomes no different or meaningful than saying, "I prefer cheese on my hamburger."
For the record, the Yankees ranked 3,3,8, and 6th in ERA during Mattingly's prime run. In 1985 they were first in runs scored...it sure doesn't hurt to have Rickey Henderson at the top. So in reality, Mattingly's teams had comparable support as Arod's Yankee teams. Arod's NY staffs ranked 6th, and 9th in ERA. The luck factor is so prevalant!! If the 1985 Yankees played in the West, then they were in the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, get out the dice
I to this day feel bad about his "luck", or lack thereof, in his timing for retirement. You'll recall in 1994 the Yanks were in first place and playin' some strong ball when BAM! The season goes up in smoke due to the strike (also cost Tony Gwynn a crack at .400) and the following year the Yanks make the playoffs and lose that hearbreaker 15 inning game to Seattle,*sigh*
I know the Yanks had already brought in Tino, but if Donnie had stuck around one more year, just ONE MORE YEAR!!!!!!! he'd have his ring.*wipes away tear*
Sometimes life just ain't fair.
Isn't it funny that before he was banned they were good?
and when he returned they again started winning?
If you look into this theory you will see that it fits.
For so many of those years they had great hitting but no pitching.
then when he got banned, they did not have the hitting or the pitching. I think they even finished last one year during that time
Yes, Donny getting hurt did not help matters but that kid Mass stepped up that one year. I think it was 1990?
edited to add:
bri i think by 1996 the boss was in fact back in the game. his suspension was from 1989 thru 1994 I think. The drafting of talent from the losing years produced the jeters, williams etc. gene Michael can be thanked for that.
Buck showalter also deserves some credit here as well.
from the internet:
On July 30, 1990, Vincent banned New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner from baseball for life after Steinbrenner paid Howie Spira, a small-time gambler, $40,000 for "dirt" on his outfielder Dave Winfield after Winfield sued Steinbrenner for failing to pay his foundation the $300,000 guaranteed in his contract. Steinbrenner was eventually reinstated in 1993 (one year after Vincent left office).
Steve
That was exactly my point. They were able to build the core of players prior to the 96 season while George was out of the game. By 96 when he returned the team had already been put in place by Michael and Showalter and co. It was while he was banned that they were able to keep their young talent and add key players.
-- Yogi Berra
I agree, i was just wondering about the actual years. (that he was banned) seems it was for life.......lol........1990 thru 1993.
and yes it waqs in those years that they finished last or near last and were able to get good draft picks.
maybe he should get banned again?
lol
Steve
<< <i>Why was steinbrenner's liftime ban lifted while Rose continues to sit on the outside looking in? >>
I heard its because George gives better head.
-- Yogi Berra