until you answer, you have no credibility. So shut it.
>>
I question why anyone on these boards must divulge information about their race in order to have credibility - let it go now before you make even more enemies than you already have. I do, however, note that Axtell's hypocrisy knows absolutely no bounds. You want to talk about having credibility, how about claiming that someone blew up the WTC and that engineers have stated that there is no possible way that the planes brought down the towers? And then backing that up with absolutely nothing?
Axtell, you have made an accusation that someone is guilty of mass murder and that engineers have said that there is no other possible explanation. And yet, you will not name this murderer or even the engineers who support your claim. And yet you not only won't admit that you were wrong, you continually (wrongly) accuse others on this board of exactly the same BS that you are guilty of many times over.
It is no wonder your gender is on doubt, I find myself doubting that you are even human; the mold in my basement is not as repulsive as you are.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
you guys are again missing the point...no one is arguing his stats, what is being discussed is how much praise and press is heaped upon this guy. As has been shown, his defensive stats are near league average, yet he is always lauded in the press as a guy who knows where to be in the field based on one postseason play.
<< <i>I question why anyone on these boards must divulge information about their race in order to have credibility - let it go now before you make even more enemies than you already have. I do, however, note that Axtell's hypocrisy knows absolutely no bounds. You want to talk about having credibility, how about claiming that someone blew up the WTC and that engineers have stated that there is no possible way that the planes brought down the towers? And then backing that up with absolutely nothing? >>
So one cannot hold an opinion that differs from yours, from the official one the government wants to hand out? I am sorry that offends you in such a way that you cannot let go of.
<< <i>Axtell, you have made an accusation that someone is guilty of mass murder and that engineers have said that there is no other possible explanation. And yet, you will not name this murderer or even the engineers who support your claim. And yet you not only won't admit that you were wrong, you continually (wrongly) accuse others on this board of exactly the same BS that you are guilty of many times over.
It is no wonder your gender is on doubt, I find myself doubting that you are even human; the mold in my basement is not as repulsive as you are. >>
I am repulsive but you are compelled and drawn to address me at every turn. If I were truly that repulsive, you'd have nothing to do with me. As it is, you can't help but continue to communicate. Should I consider a change of address to avoid your stalking me?
I've stated repeatedly that I have accused NO ONE of mass murder. I have not named any names who is to be implicated in the plots that brought down the towers. I will leave you with this - of the 19 terrorists accused of being on the planes, 9 still are alive and well overseas.
Is this enough of an answer for you? Or do you want to continue to this meaningless exchange?
<< <i>I've stated repeatedly that I have accused NO ONE of mass murder. I have not named any names who is to be implicated in the plots that brought down the towers. I will leave you with this - of the 19 terrorists accused of being on the planes, 9 still are alive and well overseas. >>
That's exactly my point, you have made an accusation that SOMEONE is guilty of mass murder, but you refuse to say who it is or who it even MIGHT be. You let at least a dozen people draw the obvious inference that you were accusing President Bush, and said not a single word to correct them for over a week. And yes, making completely unsubstantiated charges of multiple homicide is repulsive; on an issue as tragic as the 9/11 attacks, I am not sure that "repulsive" is strong enough to describe you, but I am open to suggestions.
Conveniently, you have completely stopped mentioning the "engineers" who support your warped theory. Can you now admit that they do not exist, or at least give us a clue why you you are keeping their identities a secret?
I will let your last sentence stand without comment.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I'm a diehard Blue Jay - a pathetically hardcore one at that. I don't sleep well when they lose and that has been often in the last 12 years. I'm so used to the Jays finishing third in that division that there are some days when I wonder if it is worth the energy. I know, I know, I need a life. I can say though that I respect the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox. There is no anti-New York sentiment here at all.
With that preamble, I wanted to add that I agree with what softparade said in his last post. If you want to say overhyped in the press, then sure, I can accept that. But, although I respect the opinions of the others on here, I just can't accept that Jeter is overrated. He's a Hall of Famer. For someone to say, Jeter, as a player, is overrated means that that person would have to say that Brett, Molitor, Yount, and Sandberg are overrated as well. No surefire Hall of Famer to me will ever be overrated, overhyped perhaps (this is not Jeter's fault) but not overrated. Jeter is welcome in Toronto on my Blue Jays any time.
<< <i> That's exactly my point, you have made an accusation that SOMEONE is guilty of mass murder, but you refuse to say who it is or who it even MIGHT be. You let at least a dozen people draw the obvious inference that you were accusing President Bush, and said not a single word to correct them for over a week. >>
If people want to draw that conclusion, let them. Nothing I can say would dissuade those bush backers who insist I was implying Bush; I implied no one...I accused no one...I never said 'so-and-so is responsible'.
<< <i>And yes, making completely unsubstantiated charges of multiple homicide is repulsive; on an issue as tragic as the 9/11 attacks, I am not sure that "repulsive" is strong enough to describe you, but I am open to suggestions. >>
Fine it's repulsive to you; I prefer to want to know what happened. The 'official' story found OJ not guilty of killing 2 people, does that mean you don't believe he didn't do it?
<< <i>Conveniently, you have completely stopped mentioning the "engineers" who support your warped theory. Can you now admit that they do not exist, or at least give us a clue why you you are keeping their identities a secret? >>
Because no matter what I post, you whine and complain and moan about...nothing is ever good enough for you.
<< <i>I will let your last sentence stand without comment. >>
<< <i> That's exactly my point, you have made an accusation that SOMEONE is guilty of mass murder, but you refuse to say who it is or who it even MIGHT be. You let at least a dozen people draw the obvious inference that you were accusing President Bush, and said not a single word to correct them for over a week. >>
If people want to draw that conclusion, let them. Nothing I can say would dissuade those bush backers who insist I was implying Bush; I implied no one...I accused no one...I never said 'so-and-so is responsible'. >>
Nice try, but we're past that. We all get it - you never said Bush was responsible. Are you saying that you have no idea who is responsible? Or are you saying that you do have an idea, but you want to keep it a secret? One of those must be true, whichever is the case there can be no good reason why you not say which it is.
<< <i>
<< <i>And yes, making completely unsubstantiated charges of multiple homicide is repulsive; on an issue as tragic as the 9/11 attacks, I am not sure that "repulsive" is strong enough to describe you, but I am open to suggestions. >>
Fine it's repulsive to you; I prefer to want to know what happened. The 'official' story found OJ not guilty of killing 2 people, does that mean you don't believe he didn't do it? >>
It's repulsive to all civilized human beings - I guess you'll just have to trust me on that. And there was a mountain of substantiation that O.J. was the killer, just as there is a mountain of evidence that you are as stupid as the people on his jury. It is fine if you want to demonstrate that the "official" story is wrong - but "demonstrate" is the key word. You have offered NOTHING.
<< <i>
<< <i>Conveniently, you have completely stopped mentioning the "engineers" who support your warped theory. Can you now admit that they do not exist, or at least give us a clue why you you are keeping their identities a secret? >>
Because no matter what I post, you whine and complain and moan about...nothing is ever good enough for you. >>
That makes no sense. How would you have any idea what I would do if you ever posted something relevant? You attempted to drag two distinguished engineers into your delusion, but they very clearly did not say what you said they did - in fact they said exactly the opposite. So, no, that post certainly wasn't "good enough" for me; I would think you would be embarrassed to admit it is still "good enough" for you.
<< <i>
<< <i>I will let your last sentence stand without comment. >>
So we're done, no? >>
No. Not by a long shot.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
you guys are again missing the point...no one is arguing his stats,
more revisionist crap from Axtell. And NO I sure as heII did not miss the point.
from this very thread
your first two posts:
He's a solid fielder who bats .300 with little to no power.
171 home runs averages out to 18 home runs per year...a MONSTER!!! post 2
Dallas, who cares if he has the second most home runs of any right handed hitter? WHO CARES? It doesn't mean squat. He averages 18 home runs a year, which is light hitting in this era of unheard of home runs. Had he played in the 60s and 70s, he'd be under 10 a year.
So you never spoke about stats huh?
Actually it was the first things you mentioned. To say now that you were talking about press hype is spinning 360 degrees.
<< <i> It's repulsive to all civilized human beings - I guess you'll just have to trust me on that. And there was a mountain of substantiation that O.J. was the killer, just as there is a mountain of evidence that you are as stupid as the people on his jury. >>
thats funny man. dallas, i didn't think ya had that funny bone in you
I have never pointed the finger of blame at anyone, did I? Please show me where I did. No I don't know who is responsible. Happy?
Please tell me that the engineer from MIT didn't say that the impact from the airplanes had no effect on the collapse. That would be an engineer who said the airplanes hitting the building had nothing to do with the collapse. The same engineer said the fire caused the collapses, which is what I (and many others) have issues with. Happy now?
WP-
I thought you were done with me? You just can't resist getting burned over and over again can you?
The stats speak for themselves, there is no argument about them. The argument is about if his stats are worth the amount of press he gets.
I have never pointed the finger of blame at anyone, did I? Please show me where I did. No I don't know who is responsible. Happy?
Please tell me that the engineer from MIT didn't say that the impact from the airplanes had no effect on the collapse. That would be an engineer who said the airplanes hitting the building had nothing to do with the collapse. The same engineer said the fire caused the collapses, which is what I (and many others) have issues with. Happy now?
>>
The first step is the hardest, it should be easy from here.
Your initial post included two entirely unsubstantiated statements:
1. That the towers fell NOT from the impact of the planes OR the resulting fire
2. That you had heard engineers that said that there was no possible way that the towers collapse was caused by the planes OR the resulting fire
Statement 1 is an opinion, to which we are all entitled no matter how silly
Statement 2 is a statement of fact, and is the single only support you have put forward as a reason that you believe statement 1
But Statement 2 is simply not true. When I first pointed that out, you immediately responded with a post quoting two respected engineers, including the one you reference above, who both very clearly say that they believe that the fire caused by the airplanes' fuel brought the towers down. You even acknowledge this now (see your post above).
And no matter how many times you try to spin it, when you accuse the White House, among others, of putting out an "official story" that they know to be false, you are accusing them of a serious felony. Since it is hard to imagine why they would cover up for a mass murderer unless they were involved in some way, the clear implication is that they are themselves murderers. You may be sincere when you say you don't know who is responsible, although I believe that you are just being more careful now, but if there was a single piece of evidence that the Towers were brought down in some other way, you must realize that President Bush is aware of that evidence. You may not be accusing him of murder directly, but what you are accusing him of is not much better.
So, two questions - reserving the right to ask them again and again if you dodge them this time:
When you said that you had heard engineers say that there was no possible way that the planes and the resulting fire brought down the towers, was that the truth? {Not "I thought it was at the time", but what you think now}
Are you willing to identify the engineers if it was the truth, or admit that you have absolutely no reason to believe your initial assertion about the towers if it was not the truth?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I do not feel Derek Jeter is in any way overrated. Before jumping all over me for saying that, let me explain my reasoning.
Like it or not, New Yorker or not, Yankee fan or not, the Yankees define the game of baseball. They do in much the same way the Montreal Canadians do in hockey. Jeter is the captain and leader of the most recognized professional sports franchise, and it has to and does mean something. The reasoning that he wouldnt be mentioned as much if he were to play in Pittsburgh or Kansas City or Minnesota is not a good arguement. Of course he wouldnt, and rightfully so. It wouldnt mean as much. The fact that whether people like or hate the Yankees alone and often debate it speaks for their dominating the landscape of the game. They are, not only now in the age of media overload, but have been historically, the center of the collective baseball conscience. Winning roughly one out of every 3 world series titles the last 80 years brings that, as does doing so in the largest and most recognized city in the world.
The job of performing exceptionally well on the field, being a fine and decent human being off the field, and leading and captaining the team that is the very definition of baseball is a feat that deserves to be mentioned as exceptional and truly special beyond just the black and white of his statistics when compared to that of others. Maybe there are many other great players on the field who are also special people off the field out there, we all know there are, but they arent doing it while captaining the Yankees. It is no fault of their own, and I am sure many of them would or could provide the same or above what Jeter does in that situation, but they arent, he is. Thus his exposure, attention, hype, whatever you want to call it. For that I feel he deserves everything in the line of attention he receives.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>I do not feel Derek Jeter is in any way overrated. Before jumping all over me for saying that, let me explain my reasoning.
Like it or not, New Yorker or not, Yankee fan or not, the Yankees define the game of baseball. They do in much the same way the Montreal Canadians do in hockey. Jeter is the captain and leader of the most recognized professional sports franchise, and it has to and does mean something. The reasoning that he wouldnt be mentioned as much if he were to play in Pittsburgh or Kansas City or Minnesota is not a good arguement. Of course he wouldnt, and rightfully so. It wouldnt mean as much. The fact that whether people like or hate the Yankees alone and often debate it speaks for their dominating the landscape of the game. They are, not only now in the age of media overload, but have been historically, the center of the collective baseball conscience. Winning roughly one out of every 3 world series titles the last 80 years brings that, as does doing so in the largest and most recognized city in the world.
The job of performing exceptionally well on the field, being a fine and decent human being off the field, and leading and captaining the team that is the very definition of baseball is a feat that deserves to be mentioned as exceptional and truly special beyond just the black and white of his statistics when compared to that of others. Maybe there are many other great players on the field who are also special people off the field out there, we all know there are, but they arent doing it while captaining the Yankees. It is no fault of their own, and I am sure many of them would or could provide the same or above what Jeter does in that situation, but they arent, he is. Thus his exposure, attention, hype, whatever you want to call it. For that I feel he deserves everything in the line of attention he receives. >>
When people say overrated, they mean that a player's press coverage is out of line with his accomplishments on the field. That is the argument as it currently stands. All of this about Jeter as a captain is fine, but it isn't really pertinent to the discussion taking place.
Boopotts, if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field accomplishments then please define for me what it is that is claimed about Jeters on the field accomplishments that are out of line ? You speak of press coverage, correct ? You should know that Jeter or anyone else, NY or anywhere else that a players press coverage encompasses far more than solely their on the field accomplishments. As for my comments pertinence, there are many various statements made against jeter that entail areas outside his on the field accomplishments, so if it is ok to use them in an argument against him than why not also for him ?
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Boopotts, if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field accomplishments then please define for me what it is that is claimed about Jeters on the field accomplishments that are out of line ? You speak of press coverage, correct ? You should know that Jeter or anyone else, NY or anywhere else that a players press coverage encompasses far more than solely their on the field accomplishments. As for my comments pertinence, there are many various statements made against jeter that entail areas outside his on the field accomplishments, so if it is ok to use them in an argument against him than why not also for him ? >>
It's not OK to use anything but Jeter's on field accomplishments for the purposes of this discussion- either for or against. And if people have been bringing up off field incidents to bolster their case that Jeter is overrated then that's just flat out wrong.
It's just a question of perception, Bri, so there's no right or wrong answer. Like I said, the national press seems to think that A-Rod and Jeter are comparable talents (they're not, not even close), and if your only media outlet is the national press you would probably never guess that there are guys like Tejada and Young out there who are also playing shortstop in the AL and putting up gaudy offensive numbers that are close to, or equal to, Jeter's.
Nothing has been claimed, per se, about Jeter's on field performance that's out of line. The argument is that you hear more about him in the media then his abilities would seem to dictate. He is not the greatest shortstop of our time, and he is not the first player that any sane person would want to build a team around. He is an incredible baseball player, and he will certainly deserve first ballot introduction into the Hall, but he does not walk on water. Yet to hear the talking heads on ESPN gush over him you'd think he redefined the game.
<< <i> It's not OK to use anything but Jeter's on field accomplishments for the purposes of this discussion- either for or against. And if people have been bringing up off field incidents to bolster their case that Jeter is overrated then that's just flat out wrong.
It's just a question of perception, Bri, so there's no right or wrong answer. Like I said, the national press seems to think that A-Rod and Jeter are comparable talents (they're not, not even close), and if your only media outlet is the national press you would probably never guess that there are guys like Tejada and Young out there who are also playing shortstop in the AL and putting up gaudy offensive numbers that are close to, or equal to, Jeter's.
Nothing has been claimed, per se, about Jeter's on field performance that's out of line. The argument is that you hear more about him in the media then his abilities would seem to dictate. He is not the greatest shortstop of our time, and he is not the first player that any sane person would want to build a team around. He is an incredible baseball player, and he will certainly deserve first ballot introduction into the Hall, but he does not walk on water. Yet to hear the talking heads on ESPN gush over him you'd think he redefined the game. >>
Boopots, I agree that nothing other than playing ability should be used for the discussion if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field merit, but my point was this, what claim has been made about his ability that is out of line with ability ? Has the press ever made a claim regarding Jeter putting him above any other specific player, or is that just a perceived conclusion based on the attention he receives ? If media attention were given solely based on a players on the field performance than I would agree that Jeter receives more than his due, but that fact remains that in the world we live in media attention is given for a wide array of reasons other than just playing ability.
You state that the argument is that you hear more about him than his ability seems to dictate. You also must know that players are obviously given attention by the media for a wide array of reasons including but not limited to playing ability. I think this is where our miscommmunication seems to be occuring.
If the attention or actual claims made by the media were ones such as " Jeter is a better shortstop than Arod ever was" or " Jeter is the best player in the game today " or something else of the like then any sane person would have to agree that yes, he is receiving attention and accolades that excede his ability and the media is overrating him. If the attention he receives is just disproportionate with his ability when compared to his contemporaries without any specific claim regarding his statis among other players then it cannot be used to argue he is overrated. That attention then includes factors OTHER than his playing ability ( see factors I previously mentioned ), which is more in line with the scope of what actually occurs.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i> It's not OK to use anything but Jeter's on field accomplishments for the purposes of this discussion- either for or against. And if people have been bringing up off field incidents to bolster their case that Jeter is overrated then that's just flat out wrong.
It's just a question of perception, Bri, so there's no right or wrong answer. Like I said, the national press seems to think that A-Rod and Jeter are comparable talents (they're not, not even close), and if your only media outlet is the national press you would probably never guess that there are guys like Tejada and Young out there who are also playing shortstop in the AL and putting up gaudy offensive numbers that are close to, or equal to, Jeter's.
Nothing has been claimed, per se, about Jeter's on field performance that's out of line. The argument is that you hear more about him in the media then his abilities would seem to dictate. He is not the greatest shortstop of our time, and he is not the first player that any sane person would want to build a team around. He is an incredible baseball player, and he will certainly deserve first ballot introduction into the Hall, but he does not walk on water. Yet to hear the talking heads on ESPN gush over him you'd think he redefined the game. >>
Boopots, I agree that nothing other than playing ability should be used for the discussion if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field merit, but my point was this, what claim has been made about his ability that is out of line with ability ? Has the press ever made a claim regarding Jeter putting him above any other specific player, or is that just a perceived conclusion based on the attention he receives ? If media attention were given solely based on a players on the field performance than I would agree that Jeter receives more than his due, but that fact remains that in the world we live in media attention is given for a wide array of reasons other than just playing ability.
You state that the argument is that you hear more about him than his ability seems to dictate. You also must know that players are obviously given attention by the media for a wide array of reasons including but not limited to playing ability. I think this is where our miscommmunication seems to be occuring.
If the attention or actual claims made by the media were ones such as " Jeter is a better shortstop than Arod ever was" or " Jeter is the best player in the game today " or something else of the like then any sane person would have to agree that yes, he is receiving attention and accolades that excede his ability and the media is overrating him. If the attention he receives is just disproportionate with his ability when compared to his contemporaries without any specific claim regarding his statis among other players then it cannot be used to argue he is overrated. That attention then includes factors OTHER than his playing ability ( see factors I previously mentioned ), which is more in line with the scope of what actually occurs. >>
Hi Bri,
This actually seems like a fair and well reasoned argument, and I can get behind your opinion on this. Thanks for bringing a fresh perspective to this discussion!
Sports Illustraded just did a poll. I heard about it all day on ESPN radio. They polled 370 major league players about the most over rated and most under rated players in baseball.
Number one over rated? Derek Jeter
Number one under rated? Michael Young.
I thought it very interesting that 370 major leaguers agree with me.
I was watching the Yankees game and Al Leiter explained how these polls work. The polls ALREADY list a few select players to choose from. There can be many factors in this poll. Some guys are just lazy and circle whomever. Some votes are done because of player jealousy. Some vote on who they feel receive too much publicity and the east coast bias factor. As Leiter said, they get these polls all of the time and are pretty much meaningless.
Do I take that as these players are the most over-rated? Not really...sounds like it's a poll that should be taken as a grain of salt.
Leiter's comments are also that of being from a peer. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...take the poll and make it what you want.
The truth of the matter is that of 470 (not 370) 9 percent voted that jeter was overrated. When i went to school 9 percent (hehe) of 470 was 52? So 52 guys agreed with ya Frank, not 370. Jeese if ya heard about it all day it would seem that maybe you would have gotten it right.
From the article..................
In a Sports Illustrated poll of 470 players, Jeter was named on 9 percent of the ballots as the most over-rated. Mets center fielder Carlos Beltran was second with 7 percent and Alex Rodriguez was third with 6 percent.
I'm not spinning anything, that is your bag. I simply refuted what Frank claimed. I think (as you do too) that 370 votes and 52 votes is a world of difference.
hey I did not tell you that you could come out from under the bed.
Your right. My bad. (about the numbers) Still, he was voted as the most overrated.
One other aspect. I am not being wishy washy (because I still think he is overrated), but I did hear also that many of the players vote based on how much money that they make. In other words, player x makes y millions of dollars, and he does not deserve that amount, therefore, he is overrated. Maybe that is why the players picked Jeter. Because A Rod was also on the list. I don't believe A Rod to be overrated, but he does make a lot of money, therefore, I can see how the players feel that he is overrated.
One other thing that I heard yesterday that got me to thinking. Jeter is very friendly with the media. He is a class act. He is in NY. And he is a very good shortstop and a winner. Those things combined make for a whole lot of media coverage. Therefore, he is considered overrated by many, from a skill standpoint.
There is no denying, however, that if he played for the KC Royals that he would not be nearly as popular.
I said all that to say that I can see both sides of the issue.
I still believe that from a SKILL STANDPOINT, that he is overrated. Notice that I said from a SKILL STANDPOINT. Just look at his playoff numbers. Everyone thinks that he is cluth? He has been a couple of times, but look at his total playoff numbers.
I'm not being wishy washy, just trying to be objective.
A point I would like to make. It has been said that jeter has basically the same average in post season play as he does during the reg season? if that is the case would not that mean that he is indeed better in the P.O then in the reg season? I state this belief upon the simple fact that in the Playoffs he is batting against playoff teams! and therefore pitchers having good years. not teams that are playing sub 500 ball. and facing pitchers that lose more often then win. In any event the guy is a decent player that much is said about and therefore is over rated. he is not the greatest ballplayer ever. We all know that.
Post season play is more challeging then many reg season games. to have basically the same average sgows me that he is consistent.
Anybody read ESPN magazine? I picked up a copy on a recent business trip, and found a great article on this topic in the May 8 issue.
"Clutch is just another word for lucky - just look at Captain Clutch (meaning Jeter) himself"
Its on page 12 of this issue, and really affirms what most baseball fans feel about Jeter - but allow me to excerpt a few key points...
"Jeter is a very good player. Don't misunderstand. Very good. But, he has been lucky too - right place, right time. He wouldn't be viewed as a mystic winner if he had been exactly the same player, or even a better one, and come up with the Pittsburgh Pirates. Never underestimate the importance of luck in the building of legends"
"Jeter is a cathedral, and worship tends to cloud fanatics, faith obstructing facts"
"Jeter always seems to be around in big moments because he has played in 115 postseason games (more than Bonds, Pujols, and Mays combined)...you play 115 games, and once in a while, a Jeffrey Maier is going to reach out and turn one of your outs into a home run. Miguel Tejada might make a famous flip to his catcher to save a series too if you gave him 95 more games of postseason chances than he's had"
"Jeter is in a no-lose position now that we've erected a shield of clutch around him. And, it doesn't matter that he's had so much help that when he got hurt one Opening Day, the Yanks started 18-3 without him, the best start in their history"
"Jeter gets credit for saving the Yanks with that flip to home plate, but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since. His four strikeout performance against the Twins in 2004 was "erased" because "choker" Alex Rodriguez lifted the Yanks with a monster performance that same game. And, once Aaron Boone hit the Game 7 homer to carry Jeter and the Yanks past the Red Sox, it didn't matter that Jeter was 7-for-30 with three runs and two RBI's. Perception takes a bat to reality"
"Pretty good deal if you can get it. We ignore that no player in baseball, not one, made more outs to end games last season with the tying or winning runs on base than Jeter did. Instead, we celebrate his eighth inning HR to beat the Royals this past month with tabloid headlines about clutchness, even though, according to Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in both the tying and winning runs.
"Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason AB's as Jeter - 462. In those AB's, Williams has 6 more HR's, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBI's, 2 more runs, and 7 fewer strikeouts. So, why isn't he Captain Clutch? The moments that reaffirm belief, we keep. The ones that don't, we discard"
"Jeter doesn't "know how to win" or "raise his game". In fact, Jeter is the same player in the postseason as he is in the regular season. RS - .314 BA, .386 OBP, .461 SP - Postseason - .307 BA, .379 OBP, .463 SP. Why? Because he has gotten to play an entire regular season's worth of postseason games. That isn't clutch. That's averages averaging out. But, myth is more fun than math"
I would love to hear the Jeter worshippers take on this.
<< <i> I would love to hear the Jeter worshippers take on this. >>
They'll say it's jealousy. They will say that the author's favorite team would love to have Jeter, and that Jeter must have beat the author's favorite team someway, so he's holding a grudge.
Or, they'll say it's the anti-Yankee sentiment that they feel everyone shares that isn't a fan, and this author is simply trying to feed it. He must be a yankee hater!
Either way, you can't argue facts. The author makes strong points. The yankee fans, in their fervor to hoist a new all time great, have chosen Jeter to go along side the icons of baseball legends past. Troubling thing is, he doesn't belong.
No............the fan with intelligence does not claim jeter is an equal to ruth etc, the intelligent fan just argues that he his better then you 2 schmoes make him out to be. The anti yankee sentiment that spews from you is obvious and getting boring.
Jeter is overrated. The author makes points that fans not blinded with yankeeitis have been saying forever (if he played in a small market he'd be unknown, he's a product of being in so many postseasons, etc.).
You are just too simple minded to see, perhaps, that he is indeed overrated.
I'm not making him out to be anything - but overrated. He's a good SS (though not the best on his own team), but then again so are half a dozen other SS in the league today.
I'll just insert the Yankee fans next point here -
"But, how can you compare anyone else in the league to Jeter? He's got the rings! He knows how to win! He brings the intangibles!"
The article spells it all out, in unbiased fashion.
I dont recall anyone having made a claim to the effect of Jeter being the greatest player ever, or even the greatest shortstop today. What he does do is play very solid baseball day in and day out, year in and year out. He is a leader on and off the field, and someone in sports to actually look up to.
Regarding Jeters postseason record compared to his regular season, I can only say this. If everything is equal statistically between the two, and he is an above average regular season player ( see his lifetime .300 average and around 200 hits per ) then he certainly must be considered an exceptional post season player when you take into account that he is facing the toughest pitching in the post season. Now to clarify, I am NOT saying Jeter is some post season god. I dont think anyone has made such a claim. He is a solid player who has done very well for his team over the years, and is appreciated as such.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
What a bunch of simple minded losers this little love nest of Yankee haters are. Nothing better to do then tear down anything that might be pro NY Yankee whether it is Derek Jeter one day or Mike Mussina the next. Hope you idiots are have alot fun sticking your heads up each others asses
<< <i> Now to clarify, I am NOT saying Jeter is some post season god. I dont think anyone has made such a claim. He is a solid player who has done very well for his team over the years, and is appreciated as such. >>
Really? The media and NY fans sure as hell have made him out to be. 'He knows how to win' and all that other such garbage is what makes him the most overrated player in the game. Lots of players do very well for long periods of time, but because he's fortunate enough to be on a yankee team with tons of postseason coverage, somehow he gets deified.
And softy, I see you made it back. What, did mommy give you your internet access back?
<< <i> Now to clarify, I am NOT saying Jeter is some post season god. I dont think anyone has made such a claim. He is a solid player who has done very well for his team over the years, and is appreciated as such. >>
Really? The media and NY fans sure as hell have made him out to be. 'He knows how to win' and all that other such garbage is what makes him the most overrated player in the game. Lots of players do very well for long periods of time, but because he's fortunate enough to be on a yankee team with tons of postseason coverage, somehow he gets deified.
And softy, I see you made it back. What, did mommy give you your internet access back? >>
Who made that claim ? Just stop what you are doing and give me one example where anyone claimed Jeter to be the best at anything. The guy gets talked about ALOT. More than most players, and more than he should. Thats the breaks of being the captain of the most recognized team in the most recognized city in the world. He is a fine player, leader, and human being, but NOBODY ever made claims in the lines of him being the greatest. You are confusing his obvious media overexposure with claims that just havnt been made by anyone, ever. Granted, if I werent from NY or wasnt a Yankee fan I would get sick of hearing about it too, but the last thing I would do is day in and day out spend as much of my valuable time talking about someone from a team I was not a fan of. I just dont see how anyone can be so hung up on a guy who isnt even on their team. It is comically obsurd to listen to you haters spill post after post yapping about a guy or a team you hate. Why bother ? Move on, talk about your team and get a life.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i> Who made that claim ? Just stop what you are doing and give me one example where anyone claimed Jeter to be the best at anything. The guy gets talked about ALOT. More than most players, and more than he should. Thats the breaks of being the captain of the most recognized team in the most recognized city in the world. He is a fine player, leader, and human being, but NOBODY ever made claims in the lines of him being the greatest. You are confusing his obvious media overexposure with claims that just havnt been made by anyone, ever. Granted, if I werent from NY or wasnt a Yankee fan I would get sick of hearing about it too, but the last thing I would do is day in and day out spend as much of my valuable time talking about someone from a team I was not a fan of. I just dont see how anyone can be so hung up on a guy who isnt even on their team. It is comically obsurd to listen to you haters spill post after post yapping about a guy or a team you hate. Why bother ? Move on, talk about your team and get a life. >>
You made the point PERFECTLY CLEAR. Why does he get so much attention? Because he's the captain of the yankees? You can't see for a second how that MAKES HIM OVERRATED? That's the very epitome of what overrated is - unwarranted media attention. The NY media goes ape sh*t on every little thing he does, because he's 'Jeter'. He can do no wrong in NY's eyes. Arod, on the other hand, is 1000 times the player Jeter is, yet he gets crap 24/7. That's why anyone not blinded by the fog that surrounds the NY media hype machine sees Jeter for what he is - a solid SS who is overpaid and overhyped.
Ax, I think you are confused as to what overrated means. Getting an over abundance of media attention is NOT overrated. That is NOT the very "epitome " of overrated. It is over exposure maybe, but that is not the same as overrated. The two things are not the same no matter what way your simple, confused mind tells you.
By the way, how is it that you are such an expert on the NY media ? If you are on the west coast then you have no access to NY media. If Jeter is over EXPOSED in your area, then that is either west coast media, or national media, NOT simply NY media. Again, a situation where you take something and spin it to your liking instead of dealing with facts.
I know you wont answer this, because you NEVER actually answer anything asked of you, but where is your evidence or proof that Jeter can do no wrong in NY's eyes ? Do you live here ? Do you have access to the people in NY to hear what is said here ? Again, another situation where you take your personal feelings and try to relay them as FACT. Do you ever get tired of being a fool ? Does it ever get old not having a clue what you speak of ?
What makes me laugh the most of all this is that you continually take a future lock for the hall of fame and call him overrated, yet you made a rookie pitcher who hasnt accomplished a half a turd a future hall of famer by overrating and overhyping him. Your rantings about Felix is the VERY EPITOME of what overrated is. But of course, you will have a dim witted response or excuse for that too.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Comments
<< <i>pandrews-
until you answer, you have no credibility. So shut it.
>>
I question why anyone on these boards must divulge information about their race in order to have credibility - let it go now before you make even more enemies than you already have. I do, however, note that Axtell's hypocrisy knows absolutely no bounds. You want to talk about having credibility, how about claiming that someone blew up the WTC and that engineers have stated that there is no possible way that the planes brought down the towers? And then backing that up with absolutely nothing?
Axtell, you have made an accusation that someone is guilty of mass murder and that engineers have said that there is no other possible explanation. And yet, you will not name this murderer or even the engineers who support your claim. And yet you not only won't admit that you were wrong, you continually (wrongly) accuse others on this board of exactly the same BS that you are guilty of many times over.
It is no wonder your gender is on doubt, I find myself doubting that you are even human; the mold in my basement is not as repulsive as you are.
<< <i>I question why anyone on these boards must divulge information about their race in order to have credibility - let it go now before you make even more enemies than you already have. I do, however, note that Axtell's hypocrisy knows absolutely no bounds. You want to talk about having credibility, how about claiming that someone blew up the WTC and that engineers have stated that there is no possible way that the planes brought down the towers? And then backing that up with absolutely nothing? >>
So one cannot hold an opinion that differs from yours, from the official one the government wants to hand out? I am sorry that offends you in such a way that you cannot let go of.
<< <i>Axtell, you have made an accusation that someone is guilty of mass murder and that engineers have said that there is no other possible explanation. And yet, you will not name this murderer or even the engineers who support your claim. And yet you not only won't admit that you were wrong, you continually (wrongly) accuse others on this board of exactly the same BS that you are guilty of many times over.
It is no wonder your gender is on doubt, I find myself doubting that you are even human; the mold in my basement is not as repulsive as you are. >>
I am repulsive but you are compelled and drawn to address me at every turn. If I were truly that repulsive, you'd have nothing to do with me. As it is, you can't help but continue to communicate. Should I consider a change of address to avoid your stalking me?
I've stated repeatedly that I have accused NO ONE of mass murder. I have not named any names who is to be implicated in the plots that brought down the towers. I will leave you with this - of the 19 terrorists accused of being on the planes, 9 still are alive and well overseas.
Is this enough of an answer for you? Or do you want to continue to this meaningless exchange?
<< <i>I've stated repeatedly that I have accused NO ONE of mass murder. I have not named any names who is to be implicated in the plots that brought down the towers. I will leave you with this - of the 19 terrorists accused of being on the planes, 9 still are alive and well overseas.
>>
That's exactly my point, you have made an accusation that SOMEONE is guilty of mass murder, but you refuse to say who it is or who it even MIGHT be. You let at least a dozen people draw the obvious inference that you were accusing President Bush, and said not a single word to correct them for over a week. And yes, making completely unsubstantiated charges of multiple homicide is repulsive; on an issue as tragic as the 9/11 attacks, I am not sure that "repulsive" is strong enough to describe you, but I am open to suggestions.
Conveniently, you have completely stopped mentioning the "engineers" who support your warped theory. Can you now admit that they do not exist, or at least give us a clue why you you are keeping their identities a secret?
I will let your last sentence stand without comment.
With that preamble, I wanted to add that I agree with what softparade said in his last post. If you want to say overhyped in the press, then sure, I can accept that. But, although I respect the opinions of the others on here, I just can't accept that Jeter is overrated. He's a Hall of Famer. For someone to say, Jeter, as a player, is overrated means that that person would have to say that Brett, Molitor, Yount, and Sandberg are overrated as well. No surefire Hall of Famer to me will ever be overrated, overhyped perhaps (this is not Jeter's fault) but not overrated. Jeter is welcome in Toronto on my Blue Jays any time.
<< <i>
That's exactly my point, you have made an accusation that SOMEONE is guilty of mass murder, but you refuse to say who it is or who it even MIGHT be. You let at least a dozen people draw the obvious inference that you were accusing President Bush, and said not a single word to correct them for over a week. >>
If people want to draw that conclusion, let them. Nothing I can say would dissuade those bush backers who insist I was implying Bush; I implied no one...I accused no one...I never said 'so-and-so is responsible'.
<< <i>And yes, making completely unsubstantiated charges of multiple homicide is repulsive; on an issue as tragic as the 9/11 attacks, I am not sure that "repulsive" is strong enough to describe you, but I am open to suggestions. >>
Fine it's repulsive to you; I prefer to want to know what happened. The 'official' story found OJ not guilty of killing 2 people, does that mean you don't believe he didn't do it?
<< <i>Conveniently, you have completely stopped mentioning the "engineers" who support your warped theory. Can you now admit that they do not exist, or at least give us a clue why you you are keeping their identities a secret? >>
Because no matter what I post, you whine and complain and moan about...nothing is ever good enough for you.
<< <i>I will let your last sentence stand without comment. >>
So we're done, no?
<< <i>
<< <i>
That's exactly my point, you have made an accusation that SOMEONE is guilty of mass murder, but you refuse to say who it is or who it even MIGHT be. You let at least a dozen people draw the obvious inference that you were accusing President Bush, and said not a single word to correct them for over a week. >>
If people want to draw that conclusion, let them. Nothing I can say would dissuade those bush backers who insist I was implying Bush; I implied no one...I accused no one...I never said 'so-and-so is responsible'. >>
Nice try, but we're past that. We all get it - you never said Bush was responsible. Are you saying that you have no idea who is responsible? Or are you saying that you do have an idea, but you want to keep it a secret? One of those must be true, whichever is the case there can be no good reason why you not say which it is.
<< <i>
<< <i>And yes, making completely unsubstantiated charges of multiple homicide is repulsive; on an issue as tragic as the 9/11 attacks, I am not sure that "repulsive" is strong enough to describe you, but I am open to suggestions. >>
Fine it's repulsive to you; I prefer to want to know what happened. The 'official' story found OJ not guilty of killing 2 people, does that mean you don't believe he didn't do it? >>
It's repulsive to all civilized human beings - I guess you'll just have to trust me on that. And there was a mountain of substantiation that O.J. was the killer, just as there is a mountain of evidence that you are as stupid as the people on his jury. It is fine if you want to demonstrate that the "official" story is wrong - but "demonstrate" is the key word. You have offered NOTHING.
<< <i>
<< <i>Conveniently, you have completely stopped mentioning the "engineers" who support your warped theory. Can you now admit that they do not exist, or at least give us a clue why you you are keeping their identities a secret? >>
Because no matter what I post, you whine and complain and moan about...nothing is ever good enough for you. >>
That makes no sense. How would you have any idea what I would do if you ever posted something relevant? You attempted to drag two distinguished engineers into your delusion, but they very clearly did not say what you said they did - in fact they said exactly the opposite. So, no, that post certainly wasn't "good enough" for me; I would think you would be embarrassed to admit it is still "good enough" for you.
<< <i>
<< <i>I will let your last sentence stand without comment. >>
So we're done, no? >>
No. Not by a long shot.
I say this to Sox fans....you hugged Frank Malzone, Rico Petrocelli and Nomar as the best. You were diehard and steadfast. Are they better than Jeter?
more revisionist crap from Axtell. And NO I sure as heII did not miss the point.
from this very thread
your first two posts:
He's a solid fielder who bats .300 with little to no power.
171 home runs averages out to 18 home runs per year...a MONSTER!!! post 2
Dallas, who cares if he has the second most home runs of any right handed hitter? WHO CARES? It doesn't mean squat. He averages 18 home runs a year, which is light hitting in this era of unheard of home runs. Had he played in the 60s and 70s, he'd be under 10 a year.
So you never spoke about stats huh?
Actually it was the first things you mentioned. To say now that you were talking about press hype is spinning 360 degrees.
Steve
Steve
<< <i> It's repulsive to all civilized human beings - I guess you'll just have to trust me on that. And there was a mountain of substantiation that O.J. was the killer, just as there is a mountain of evidence that you are as stupid as the people on his jury. >>
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I have never pointed the finger of blame at anyone, did I? Please show me where I did. No I don't know who is responsible. Happy?
Please tell me that the engineer from MIT didn't say that the impact from the airplanes had no effect on the collapse. That would be an engineer who said the airplanes hitting the building had nothing to do with the collapse. The same engineer said the fire caused the collapses, which is what I (and many others) have issues with. Happy now?
WP-
I thought you were done with me? You just can't resist getting burned over and over again can you?
The stats speak for themselves, there is no argument about them. The argument is about if his stats are worth the amount of press he gets.
like you do to me after saying "I'm done"
there is no argument about them
then why did you argue regarding them then?
twist away i have all nite.
SD
<< <i>dallas-
I have never pointed the finger of blame at anyone, did I? Please show me where I did. No I don't know who is responsible. Happy?
Please tell me that the engineer from MIT didn't say that the impact from the airplanes had no effect on the collapse. That would be an engineer who said the airplanes hitting the building had nothing to do with the collapse. The same engineer said the fire caused the collapses, which is what I (and many others) have issues with. Happy now?
>>
The first step is the hardest, it should be easy from here.
Your initial post included two entirely unsubstantiated statements:
1. That the towers fell NOT from the impact of the planes OR the resulting fire
2. That you had heard engineers that said that there was no possible way that the towers collapse was caused by the planes OR the resulting fire
Statement 1 is an opinion, to which we are all entitled no matter how silly
Statement 2 is a statement of fact, and is the single only support you have put forward as a reason that you believe statement 1
But Statement 2 is simply not true. When I first pointed that out, you immediately responded with a post quoting two respected engineers, including the one you reference above, who both very clearly say that they believe that the fire caused by the airplanes' fuel brought the towers down. You even acknowledge this now (see your post above).
And no matter how many times you try to spin it, when you accuse the White House, among others, of putting out an "official story" that they know to be false, you are accusing them of a serious felony. Since it is hard to imagine why they would cover up for a mass murderer unless they were involved in some way, the clear implication is that they are themselves murderers. You may be sincere when you say you don't know who is responsible, although I believe that you are just being more careful now, but if there was a single piece of evidence that the Towers were brought down in some other way, you must realize that President Bush is aware of that evidence. You may not be accusing him of murder directly, but what you are accusing him of is not much better.
So, two questions - reserving the right to ask them again and again if you dodge them this time:
When you said that you had heard engineers say that there was no possible way that the planes and the resulting fire brought down the towers, was that the truth? {Not "I thought it was at the time", but what you think now}
Are you willing to identify the engineers if it was the truth, or admit that you have absolutely no reason to believe your initial assertion about the towers if it was not the truth?
Like it or not, New Yorker or not, Yankee fan or not, the Yankees define the game of baseball. They do in much the same way the Montreal Canadians do in hockey. Jeter is the captain and leader of the most recognized professional sports franchise, and it has to and does mean something. The reasoning that he wouldnt be mentioned as much if he were to play in Pittsburgh or Kansas City or Minnesota is not a good arguement. Of course he wouldnt, and rightfully so. It wouldnt mean as much. The fact that whether people like or hate the Yankees alone and often debate it speaks for their dominating the landscape of the game. They are, not only now in the age of media overload, but have been historically, the center of the collective baseball conscience. Winning roughly one out of every 3 world series titles the last 80 years brings that, as does doing so in the largest and most recognized city in the world.
The job of performing exceptionally well on the field, being a fine and decent human being off the field, and leading and captaining the team that is the very definition of baseball is a feat that deserves to be mentioned as exceptional and truly special beyond just the black and white of his statistics when compared to that of others. Maybe there are many other great players on the field who are also special people off the field out there, we all know there are, but they arent doing it while captaining the Yankees. It is no fault of their own, and I am sure many of them would or could provide the same or above what Jeter does in that situation, but they arent, he is. Thus his exposure, attention, hype, whatever you want to call it. For that I feel he deserves everything in the line of attention he receives.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>I do not feel Derek Jeter is in any way overrated. Before jumping all over me for saying that, let me explain my reasoning.
Like it or not, New Yorker or not, Yankee fan or not, the Yankees define the game of baseball. They do in much the same way the Montreal Canadians do in hockey. Jeter is the captain and leader of the most recognized professional sports franchise, and it has to and does mean something. The reasoning that he wouldnt be mentioned as much if he were to play in Pittsburgh or Kansas City or Minnesota is not a good arguement. Of course he wouldnt, and rightfully so. It wouldnt mean as much. The fact that whether people like or hate the Yankees alone and often debate it speaks for their dominating the landscape of the game. They are, not only now in the age of media overload, but have been historically, the center of the collective baseball conscience. Winning roughly one out of every 3 world series titles the last 80 years brings that, as does doing so in the largest and most recognized city in the world.
The job of performing exceptionally well on the field, being a fine and decent human being off the field, and leading and captaining the team that is the very definition of baseball is a feat that deserves to be mentioned as exceptional and truly special beyond just the black and white of his statistics when compared to that of others. Maybe there are many other great players on the field who are also special people off the field out there, we all know there are, but they arent doing it while captaining the Yankees. It is no fault of their own, and I am sure many of them would or could provide the same or above what Jeter does in that situation, but they arent, he is. Thus his exposure, attention, hype, whatever you want to call it. For that I feel he deserves everything in the line of attention he receives. >>
When people say overrated, they mean that a player's press coverage is out of line with his accomplishments on the field. That is the argument as it currently stands. All of this about Jeter as a captain is fine, but it isn't really pertinent to the discussion taking place.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Boopotts, if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field accomplishments then please define for me what it is that is claimed about Jeters on the field accomplishments that are out of line ? You speak of press coverage, correct ? You should know that Jeter or anyone else, NY or anywhere else that a players press coverage encompasses far more than solely their on the field accomplishments. As for my comments pertinence, there are many various statements made against jeter that entail areas outside his on the field accomplishments, so if it is ok to use them in an argument against him than why not also for him ? >>
It's not OK to use anything but Jeter's on field accomplishments for the purposes of this discussion- either for or against. And if people have been bringing up off field incidents to bolster their case that Jeter is overrated then that's just flat out wrong.
It's just a question of perception, Bri, so there's no right or wrong answer. Like I said, the national press seems to think that A-Rod and Jeter are comparable talents (they're not, not even close), and if your only media outlet is the national press you would probably never guess that there are guys like Tejada and Young out there who are also playing shortstop in the AL and putting up gaudy offensive numbers that are close to, or equal to, Jeter's.
Nothing has been claimed, per se, about Jeter's on field performance that's out of line. The argument is that you hear more about him in the media then his abilities would seem to dictate. He is not the greatest shortstop of our time, and he is not the first player that any sane person would want to build a team around. He is an incredible baseball player, and he will certainly deserve first ballot introduction into the Hall, but he does not walk on water. Yet to hear the talking heads on ESPN gush over him you'd think he redefined the game.
<< <i>
It's not OK to use anything but Jeter's on field accomplishments for the purposes of this discussion- either for or against. And if people have been bringing up off field incidents to bolster their case that Jeter is overrated then that's just flat out wrong.
It's just a question of perception, Bri, so there's no right or wrong answer. Like I said, the national press seems to think that A-Rod and Jeter are comparable talents (they're not, not even close), and if your only media outlet is the national press you would probably never guess that there are guys like Tejada and Young out there who are also playing shortstop in the AL and putting up gaudy offensive numbers that are close to, or equal to, Jeter's.
Nothing has been claimed, per se, about Jeter's on field performance that's out of line. The argument is that you hear more about him in the media then his abilities would seem to dictate. He is not the greatest shortstop of our time, and he is not the first player that any sane person would want to build a team around. He is an incredible baseball player, and he will certainly deserve first ballot introduction into the Hall, but he does not walk on water. Yet to hear the talking heads on ESPN gush over him you'd think he redefined the game. >>
Boopots, I agree that nothing other than playing ability should be used for the discussion if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field merit, but my point was this, what claim has been made about his ability that is out of line with ability ? Has the press ever made a claim regarding Jeter putting him above any other specific player, or is that just a perceived conclusion based on the attention he receives ? If media attention were given solely based on a players on the field performance than I would agree that Jeter receives more than his due, but that fact remains that in the world we live in media attention is given for a wide array of reasons other than just playing ability.
You state that the argument is that you hear more about him than his ability seems to dictate. You also must know that players are obviously given attention by the media for a wide array of reasons including but not limited to playing ability. I think this is where our miscommmunication seems to be occuring.
If the attention or actual claims made by the media were ones such as " Jeter is a better shortstop than Arod ever was" or " Jeter is the best player in the game today " or something else of the like then any sane person would have to agree that yes, he is receiving attention and accolades that excede his ability and the media is overrating him. If the attention he receives is just disproportionate with his ability when compared to his contemporaries without any specific claim regarding his statis among other players then it cannot be used to argue he is overrated. That attention then includes factors OTHER than his playing ability ( see factors I previously mentioned ), which is more in line with the scope of what actually occurs.
-- Yogi Berra
IDIOTS
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Another day and ANOTHER "over rated" 3 hit performance by Derek Jeter. These over rated 3 hit days just get so boring
IDIOTS >>
Thanks, Dan, for adding a well reasoned and intelligent contribution to what has at least been at times a fun and thought provoking discussion.
<< <i>
<< <i>
It's not OK to use anything but Jeter's on field accomplishments for the purposes of this discussion- either for or against. And if people have been bringing up off field incidents to bolster their case that Jeter is overrated then that's just flat out wrong.
It's just a question of perception, Bri, so there's no right or wrong answer. Like I said, the national press seems to think that A-Rod and Jeter are comparable talents (they're not, not even close), and if your only media outlet is the national press you would probably never guess that there are guys like Tejada and Young out there who are also playing shortstop in the AL and putting up gaudy offensive numbers that are close to, or equal to, Jeter's.
Nothing has been claimed, per se, about Jeter's on field performance that's out of line. The argument is that you hear more about him in the media then his abilities would seem to dictate. He is not the greatest shortstop of our time, and he is not the first player that any sane person would want to build a team around. He is an incredible baseball player, and he will certainly deserve first ballot introduction into the Hall, but he does not walk on water. Yet to hear the talking heads on ESPN gush over him you'd think he redefined the game. >>
Boopots, I agree that nothing other than playing ability should be used for the discussion if we are strictly speaking of Jeters on the field merit, but my point was this, what claim has been made about his ability that is out of line with ability ? Has the press ever made a claim regarding Jeter putting him above any other specific player, or is that just a perceived conclusion based on the attention he receives ? If media attention were given solely based on a players on the field performance than I would agree that Jeter receives more than his due, but that fact remains that in the world we live in media attention is given for a wide array of reasons other than just playing ability.
You state that the argument is that you hear more about him than his ability seems to dictate. You also must know that players are obviously given attention by the media for a wide array of reasons including but not limited to playing ability. I think this is where our miscommmunication seems to be occuring.
If the attention or actual claims made by the media were ones such as " Jeter is a better shortstop than Arod ever was" or " Jeter is the best player in the game today " or something else of the like then any sane person would have to agree that yes, he is receiving attention and accolades that excede his ability and the media is overrating him. If the attention he receives is just disproportionate with his ability when compared to his contemporaries without any specific claim regarding his statis among other players then it cannot be used to argue he is overrated. That attention then includes factors OTHER than his playing ability ( see factors I previously mentioned ), which is more in line with the scope of what actually occurs. >>
Hi Bri,
This actually seems like a fair and well reasoned argument, and I can get behind your opinion on this. Thanks for bringing a fresh perspective to this discussion!
Sports Illustraded just did a poll. I heard about it all day on ESPN radio. They polled 370 major league players about the most over rated and most under rated players in baseball.
Number one over rated? Derek Jeter
Number one under rated? Michael Young.
I thought it very interesting that 370 major leaguers agree with me.
Shane
Jeter is indeed overrated, and his peers apparently agree.
I was watching the Yankees game and Al Leiter explained how these polls work. The polls ALREADY list a few select players to choose from. There can be many factors in this poll. Some guys are just lazy and circle whomever. Some votes are done because of player jealousy. Some vote on who they feel receive too much publicity and the east coast bias factor. As Leiter said, they get these polls all of the time and are pretty much meaningless.
Do I take that as these players are the most over-rated? Not really...sounds like it's a poll that should be taken as a grain of salt.
Leiter's comments are also that of being from a peer. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...take the poll and make it what you want.
The truth of the matter is that of 470 (not 370) 9 percent voted that jeter was overrated. When i went to school 9 percent (hehe) of 470 was 52? So 52 guys agreed with ya Frank, not 370. Jeese if ya heard about it all day it would seem that maybe you would have gotten it right.
From the article..................
In a Sports Illustrated poll of 470 players, Jeter was named on 9 percent of the ballots as the most over-rated. Mets center fielder Carlos Beltran was second with 7 percent and Alex Rodriguez was third with 6 percent.
Steve
<< <i>Nl- JD Drew
AL- i think beltre is kinda overrated. >>
I fully agree with this one.
Spin the numbers however you want. Jeter was voted as most overrated...why is that so difficult to consume, yankee lovah?
<< <i>Sports fans love to hate. I want Jeter on my team any day. >>
Only this wasn't a poll of fans, this was a poll of his peers.
I'm not spinning anything, that is your bag. I simply refuted what Frank claimed. I think (as you do too) that 370 votes and 52 votes is a world of difference.
hey I did not tell you that you could come out from under the bed.
Steve
Your right. My bad. (about the numbers) Still, he was voted as the most overrated.
One other aspect. I am not being wishy washy (because I still think he is overrated), but I did hear also that many of the players vote based on how much money that they make. In other words, player x makes y millions of dollars, and he does not deserve that amount, therefore, he is overrated. Maybe that is why the players picked Jeter. Because A Rod was also on the list. I don't believe A Rod to be overrated, but he does make a lot of money, therefore, I can see how the players feel that he is overrated.
One other thing that I heard yesterday that got me to thinking. Jeter is very friendly with the media. He is a class act. He is in NY. And he is a very good shortstop and a winner. Those things combined make for a whole lot of media coverage. Therefore, he is considered overrated by many, from a skill standpoint.
There is no denying, however, that if he played for the KC Royals that he would not be nearly as popular.
I said all that to say that I can see both sides of the issue.
I still believe that from a SKILL STANDPOINT, that he is overrated. Notice that I said from a SKILL STANDPOINT. Just look at his playoff numbers. Everyone thinks that he is cluth? He has been a couple of times, but look at his total playoff numbers.
I'm not being wishy washy, just trying to be objective.
Shane
Post season play is more challeging then many reg season games. to have basically the same average sgows me that he is consistent.
Steve
"Clutch is just another word for lucky - just look at Captain Clutch (meaning Jeter) himself"
Its on page 12 of this issue, and really affirms what most baseball fans feel about Jeter - but allow me to excerpt a few key points...
"Jeter is a very good player. Don't misunderstand. Very good. But, he has been lucky too - right place, right time. He wouldn't be viewed as a mystic winner if he had been exactly the same player, or even a better one, and come up with the Pittsburgh Pirates. Never underestimate the importance of luck in the building of legends"
"Jeter is a cathedral, and worship tends to cloud fanatics, faith obstructing facts"
"Jeter always seems to be around in big moments because he has played in 115 postseason games (more than Bonds, Pujols, and Mays combined)...you play 115 games, and once in a while, a Jeffrey Maier is going to reach out and turn one of your outs into a home run. Miguel Tejada might make a famous flip to his catcher to save a series too if you gave him 95 more games of postseason chances than he's had"
"Jeter is in a no-lose position now that we've erected a shield of clutch around him. And, it doesn't matter that he's had so much help that when he got hurt one Opening Day, the Yanks started 18-3 without him, the best start in their history"
"Jeter gets credit for saving the Yanks with that flip to home plate, but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since. His four strikeout performance against the Twins in 2004 was "erased" because "choker" Alex Rodriguez lifted the Yanks with a monster performance that same game. And, once Aaron Boone hit the Game 7 homer to carry Jeter and the Yanks past the Red Sox, it didn't matter that Jeter was 7-for-30 with three runs and two RBI's. Perception takes a bat to reality"
"Pretty good deal if you can get it. We ignore that no player in baseball, not one, made more outs to end games last season with the tying or winning runs on base than Jeter did. Instead, we celebrate his eighth inning HR to beat the Royals this past month with tabloid headlines about clutchness, even though, according to Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in both the tying and winning runs.
"Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason AB's as Jeter - 462. In those AB's, Williams has 6 more HR's, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBI's, 2 more runs, and 7 fewer strikeouts. So, why isn't he Captain Clutch? The moments that reaffirm belief, we keep. The ones that don't, we discard"
"Jeter doesn't "know how to win" or "raise his game". In fact, Jeter is the same player in the postseason as he is in the regular season. RS - .314 BA, .386 OBP, .461 SP - Postseason - .307 BA, .379 OBP, .463 SP. Why? Because he has gotten to play an entire regular season's worth of postseason games. That isn't clutch. That's averages averaging out. But, myth is more fun than math"
I would love to hear the Jeter worshippers take on this.
<< <i>
I would love to hear the Jeter worshippers take on this. >>
They'll say it's jealousy. They will say that the author's favorite team would love to have Jeter, and that Jeter must have beat the author's favorite team someway, so he's holding a grudge.
Or, they'll say it's the anti-Yankee sentiment that they feel everyone shares that isn't a fan, and this author is simply trying to feed it. He must be a yankee hater!
Either way, you can't argue facts. The author makes strong points. The yankee fans, in their fervor to hoist a new all time great, have chosen Jeter to go along side the icons of baseball legends past. Troubling thing is, he doesn't belong.
Steve
You are just too simple minded to see, perhaps, that he is indeed overrated.
I'll just insert the Yankee fans next point here -
"But, how can you compare anyone else in the league to Jeter? He's got the rings! He knows how to win! He brings the intangibles!"
The article spells it all out, in unbiased fashion.
Regarding Jeters postseason record compared to his regular season, I can only say this. If everything is equal statistically between the two, and he is an above average regular season player ( see his lifetime .300 average and around 200 hits per ) then he certainly must be considered an exceptional post season player when you take into account that he is facing the toughest pitching in the post season. Now to clarify, I am NOT saying Jeter is some post season god. I dont think anyone has made such a claim. He is a solid player who has done very well for his team over the years, and is appreciated as such.
-- Yogi Berra
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i> Now to clarify, I am NOT saying Jeter is some post season god. I dont think anyone has made such a claim. He is a solid player who has done very well for his team over the years, and is appreciated as such. >>
Really? The media and NY fans sure as hell have made him out to be. 'He knows how to win' and all that other such garbage is what makes him the most overrated player in the game. Lots of players do very well for long periods of time, but because he's fortunate enough to be on a yankee team with tons of postseason coverage, somehow he gets deified.
And softy, I see you made it back. What, did mommy give you your internet access back?
<< <i>
<< <i> Now to clarify, I am NOT saying Jeter is some post season god. I dont think anyone has made such a claim. He is a solid player who has done very well for his team over the years, and is appreciated as such. >>
Really? The media and NY fans sure as hell have made him out to be. 'He knows how to win' and all that other such garbage is what makes him the most overrated player in the game. Lots of players do very well for long periods of time, but because he's fortunate enough to be on a yankee team with tons of postseason coverage, somehow he gets deified.
And softy, I see you made it back. What, did mommy give you your internet access back? >>
Who made that claim ? Just stop what you are doing and give me one example where anyone claimed Jeter to be the best at anything. The guy gets talked about ALOT. More than most players, and more than he should. Thats the breaks of being the captain of the most recognized team in the most recognized city in the world. He is a fine player, leader, and human being, but NOBODY ever made claims in the lines of him being the greatest. You are confusing his obvious media overexposure with claims that just havnt been made by anyone, ever. Granted, if I werent from NY or wasnt a Yankee fan I would get sick of hearing about it too, but the last thing I would do is day in and day out spend as much of my valuable time talking about someone from a team I was not a fan of. I just dont see how anyone can be so hung up on a guy who isnt even on their team. It is comically obsurd to listen to you haters spill post after post yapping about a guy or a team you hate. Why bother ? Move on, talk about your team and get a life.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
Who made that claim ? Just stop what you are doing and give me one example where anyone claimed Jeter to be the best at anything. The guy gets talked about ALOT. More than most players, and more than he should. Thats the breaks of being the captain of the most recognized team in the most recognized city in the world. He is a fine player, leader, and human being, but NOBODY ever made claims in the lines of him being the greatest. You are confusing his obvious media overexposure with claims that just havnt been made by anyone, ever. Granted, if I werent from NY or wasnt a Yankee fan I would get sick of hearing about it too, but the last thing I would do is day in and day out spend as much of my valuable time talking about someone from a team I was not a fan of. I just dont see how anyone can be so hung up on a guy who isnt even on their team. It is comically obsurd to listen to you haters spill post after post yapping about a guy or a team you hate. Why bother ? Move on, talk about your team and get a life. >>
You made the point PERFECTLY CLEAR. Why does he get so much attention? Because he's the captain of the yankees? You can't see for a second how that MAKES HIM OVERRATED? That's the very epitome of what overrated is - unwarranted media attention. The NY media goes ape sh*t on every little thing he does, because he's 'Jeter'. He can do no wrong in NY's eyes. Arod, on the other hand, is 1000 times the player Jeter is, yet he gets crap 24/7. That's why anyone not blinded by the fog that surrounds the NY media hype machine sees Jeter for what he is - a solid SS who is overpaid and overhyped.
End of story.
By the way, how is it that you are such an expert on the NY media ? If you are on the west coast then you have no access to NY media. If Jeter is over EXPOSED in your area, then that is either west coast media, or national media, NOT simply NY media. Again, a situation where you take something and spin it to your liking instead of dealing with facts.
I know you wont answer this, because you NEVER actually answer anything asked of you, but where is your evidence or proof that Jeter can do no wrong in NY's eyes ? Do you live here ? Do you have access to the people in NY to hear what is said here ? Again, another situation where you take your personal feelings and try to relay them as FACT. Do you ever get tired of being a fool ? Does it ever get old not having a clue what you speak of ?
What makes me laugh the most of all this is that you continually take a future lock for the hall of fame and call him overrated, yet you made a rookie pitcher who hasnt accomplished a half a turd a future hall of famer by overrating and overhyping him. Your rantings about Felix is the VERY EPITOME of what overrated is. But of course, you will have a dim witted response or excuse for that too.
-- Yogi Berra
Shane
Steve