Well, I guess you can't call it "spinning" when Axtell hikes up her skirts and runs away from a question instead of answering it. "Lame" would work, or "cowardly", but I prefer "typical".
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
i'm using this as an example not because i hate the yankees (i do), but because i just saw it.
i was watching the o's yankees game on mlb.tv - jeter f's up an easy out in the 3rd and 3 o's runs end up scoring on the extended inning. it was then ruled a base-hit so unless you saw it, you'd think jeter did his job. i'm sure most scorers are "homers" for their team, but sometimes it's ridiculous.
<< <i>i'm using this as an example not because i hate the yankees (i do), but because i just saw it.
i was watching the o's yankees game on mlb.tv - jeter f's up an easy out in the 3rd and 3 o's runs end up scoring on the extended inning. it was then ruled a base-hit so unless you saw it, you'd think jeter did his job. i'm sure most scorers are "homers" for their team, but sometimes it's ridiculous. >>
Why do I have the feeling that we will soon be rehashing the validity of Joe D's hitting streak?
And as far as Ichiro being overrated, you do realize YOU are the only one who is saying so, right?
Really?
I suggest you re read the thread I think I saw a FEW people say the same thing.
As for hatred vile spewing towards you I only spew back at the vile crap you spew as well.
Now Ill say it again ICHIRO is overrated. Like mentioned by OTHERS the Mariners are a crappy team with or without him. I never said he was not a good/great ballplayer.
Stop whining about everything I post. You sound like a lil BlTCH when you do.
Well, I guess you can't call it "spinning" when Axtell hikes up her skirts and runs away from a question instead of answering it. "Lame" would work, or "cowardly", but I prefer "typical
Dallas,
It was easier for ms. axhole to address me and my socalled vile hatred BS. then to answer your question.
He can barely keep up with me, with you he is in a no win situation. you eat him up and spit him out.
<< <i>Edited to ask: how did you arrive at 14.25 homers per season? in 10 seasons he has hit 169 homers. that would be almost 17 per year. >>
Actually, I took his meager HR total of 169 and divided it by 12, not 10 - I realized that was counting this season, and the 1995 season where he only played 15 games. You are correct - 17 HR's a year it is.
And, Jeter scores 100 runs a year. I am pretty sure that I could score 100 runs a year as well at the top of the Yankees fantasy baseball lineup - just another example of the player being a product of his environment, and not the reverse.
Actually, I took his meager HR total of 169 and divided it by 12, not 10 - I realized that was counting this season, and the 1995 season where he only played 15 games. You are correct - 17 HR's a year it is.
a lil anti ny bias jery? meager? 169 dingers is meager?
I used that word on purpose...just trying to further the point.
Here is a question from an ESPN.com poll conducted last season -
Who is baseball's most overrated fielder?
44.7% Derek Jeter, SS
22.1% Bret Boone, 2B
13.3% Edgar Renteria, SS
12.7% Nick Johnson, 1B
7.2% Andruw Jones, OF
How about this - I would consider Barry Larkin to be a better SS than Jeter ever will be. He unfortunately came after Ozzie, and before the era of A-Rod, Nomar, and Tejada. Offensive numbers are similar to Jeter, but again - Jeter has the lousy defensive numbers. If I am not mistaken, when Jeter was in the Yankees farm system, they thought of perhaps moving him to 3B because of his limited range in the field.
I'm thinking that if jeter was a mamber of the red sox your opinion would be a little bit different of him. he would then be the best thing since sliced bread.
First, to minimise his power you divide his total by 12 in stead of 10. then when it is mentioned that he is in fact the leadoff guy and he scores 100 PLUS runs a season you lamely attempt to ridicule that by saying you could score 100 runs a season. That he is a product of his enviroment is ridicoulous. Now its some lame espn. com list. Is he the best ever? no one ever said he is. You Yankee haters need to face the facts. The guy is a great ballplayer.
Actually, ESPN didn't say it - it was a poll. You could have voted, I could have voted - baseball fans voted. Not ESPN.
I didn't minimize his already minimal HR total on purpose - I admit I didn't look at his career stats that closely and made a math error. Really not a big deal though, is it? 14 HR's or 17 HR's a season is lame either way.
the whole point you seem to want to miss is that 17 homers a year for a SS is not lame.
especially one that also averages 190 hits a year and SCORES 100 PLUS runs.
amd you have yet to answer IF HE WAS A SOX? would he then suck?? or would he then be the best ever?? answer the question. if he was a member of the redsox would he still suck??
I admit I didn't look at his career stats that closely
That is the first thing that you have said that makes any sense. GO AND LOOK then come back and make a post.
I don't think the question was - what player sucks the most in each league? It was, who is the most overrated, and that is Jeter hands down. I never said he sucks - he's a good player. I believe I said so earlier in the thread. What he is not, however, is the legendary player that some Yankee fans make him out to be - and that's the very definition of "overrated". If he was on the Red Sox, I wouldn't overrate his ability any more than a Yankee fan should.
You took a portion of my sentence out of context - I looked at his stats closely enough, this is besides the point. Offensively, he is good, not great, and let's face facts here...defensively, he does suck. One thing casual fans often point out about Jeter are his occasional "highlight reel" plays that they show over and over on the YES network. But, this is usually because of his poor defensive range. Players with poor range like Jeter are often found diving for balls, and making what look like spectacular plays. Players with excellent range rarely have to dive for a ball because they are usually in proper position to make the play. If you want defensive stats that back this up, they are easy enough to find, but I am afraid you'll just ignore them anyway (like most of the other evidence already presented in this thread).
No the question wasn't You are correct. however I asked that question and I do not believe you for a minute that if the guy played in boston you would still be downplaying his achievements.
You also made the statement that "many of us"
care to elaborate on who exactly "many of us " are?
I disagree that he sucks defensively. you can of course have your opinion. again I must add that if he was a redsox.......
I did not take any part of what you said out of context.
you said " I did not look at his stats closely"
I must agree with you on that cuz if you had even taken a moment to look at them you would not make some of the statements that you have.
you are flip flopping in the axtell way jery.
Players with excellent range rarely have to dive for a ball because they are usually in proper position to make the play
You mean like the day he cut the ball off and flipped home to the plate? you remm the one they played over and over and over.....
Steve is right man. As much as I like ya you do tend to OVER STATE any perceived flaws if it involves a Yankee and OVER STATE any perceived compliments when it involves a Sox. Which is fine in the context of fan rivalry, but you can't carry that over to a true baseball discussion. It just doesn't do you any good. There is no way you have looked at Jeters's numbers closley and have this opinion. Not if you know what the numbers mean
I didn't minimize his already minimal HR total on purpose - I admit I didn't look at his career stats that closely and made a math error. Really not a big deal though, is it? 14 HR's or 17 HR's a season is lame either way. >>
Wow, these are the kind of comments that you say that make me wonder if you really know the game. I don't know, maybe you are just a great Red Sox fan which is totaly cool! BUT to come on here and tell us that a guy who has hit LEAD OFF most of his career should be vilified for averaging 17 home runs per year when his job has been to GET ON BASE definatley points to you needing to learn the ins and outs of the game. No offense brother
Let's all not forget that the original question-- or at least the question that's pertinent to this thread-- is whether or not Jeter is overrated. NOT whether or not Jeter 'sucks'. Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player. But does he get more credit than he deserves? Yes, I think he does. Say whatever you want about A-Rod, but Jeter could not shine A-Rods shoes when they were both shortstops. A-Rod was that much better. Yet to year the national media talk you'd think they were dead even.
Or take Tehada, who has been comparable to Jeter over the past 5 seasons but he doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Jeter does. Michael Young also springs to mind as a fine hitting shortstop who doesn't get DJ's press. Now I don't hold any of this against the Yankees, and I sure don't hold it against Jeter. But with that said many of us outside of the Yankee Nation feel like the amount of ink that's spilled over Jeter is not in proportion to his accomplishments on the field, and I think we have every reason to feel this way.
<< <i>Let's all not forget that the original question-- or at least the question that's pertinent to this thread-- is whether or not Jeter is overrated. NOT whether or not Jeter 'sucks'. Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player. But does he get more credit than he deserves? Yes, I think he does. Say whatever you want about A-Rod, but Jeter could not shine A-Rods shoes when they were both shortstops. A-Rod was that much better. Yet to year the national media talk you'd think they were dead even.
Or take Tehada, who has been comparable to Jeter over the past 5 seasons but he doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Jeter does. Michael Young also springs to mind as a fine hitting shortstop who doesn't get DJ's press. Now I don't hold any of this against the Yankees, and I sure don't hold it against Jeter. But with that said many of us outside of the Yankee Nation feel like the amount of ink that's spilled over Jeter is not in proportion to his accomplishments on the field, and I think we have every reason to feel this way. >>
Hey Boo, the more and more I see A-Rod strike out with men on base late in games (again last night, all last year) I have to wonder if he has the shoe shining he will give Jeter after the game on his mind
Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player.
Whoever said that Axtell and company had any sense?
The statements that "many of them" made bordererd on the ridicoulous. They can't have it both ways A more apropo title to this thread should have been " Who is the player that non new york fans are the most jealous of"
<< <i>Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player.
Whoever said that Axtell and company had any sense?
The statements that "many of them" made bordererd on the ridicoulous. They can't have it both ways A more apropo title to this thread should have been " Who is the player that non new york fans are the most jealous of"
Steve >>
Not for me. I have already said that the Yankees are probably my second favorite team, so it is not that at all. I just think that Jeter is overrated.
I could name many players that are active (talent wise) that I would rather have than Jeter. Yet, he gets "top 5 treatment". Granted, I would love to have him in the clubhouse, and yes even on my team. I am just saying that there are many more talented than Jeter that are active.
<< <i>Let's all not forget that the original question-- or at least the question that's pertinent to this thread-- is whether or not Jeter is overrated. NOT whether or not Jeter 'sucks'. Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player. But does he get more credit than he deserves? Yes, I think he does. Say whatever you want about A-Rod, but Jeter could not shine A-Rods shoes when they were both shortstops. A-Rod was that much better. Yet to year the national media talk you'd think they were dead even.
Or take Tehada, who has been comparable to Jeter over the past 5 seasons but he doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Jeter does. Michael Young also springs to mind as a fine hitting shortstop who doesn't get DJ's press. Now I don't hold any of this against the Yankees, and I sure don't hold it against Jeter. But with that said many of us outside of the Yankee Nation feel like the amount of ink that's spilled over Jeter is not in proportion to his accomplishments on the field, and I think we have every reason to feel this way. >>
Good job, and well stated boopotts. Not sure why this is not sinking in with the Jeter fan club, but it's fairly obvious to the rest of us. I'll give you yet another example, but I am prepared for the Jeter marks to pretend there is something wrong with this, too.
<< <i>The Over-hyping of Derek Jeter Feb. 1, 2006
by Dylan Waugh, DSJ Staff Reporter
I witnessed the best play I have ever seen in any level of baseball on Oct. 13, 2001 during Game 3 of the ALDS between the New York Yankees and the Oakland Athletics. With teammate Jeremy Giambi on first base in the 7th inning, Oakland outfielder Terrence Long laced a double down the right-field line. When Yankee RF Shane Spencer overthrew two cutoff men it appeared Giambi was destined to score the tying run. SS Derek Jeter had other ideas. Jeter instinctively was in the right spot near the first base line to cut off the errant throw and flip the ball to C Jorge Posada in time to apply a swipe tag to Giambi, preserving the lead and allowing the Yankees to stage an improbable comeback and win the next three games to win the series. Without that play, I think the Yankees probably would have lost that game, and therefore the series. It should go down as one of the best plays of all time.
This being said, Derek Jeter is one of the most overrated and over-hyped baseball players of our generation.
Granted, Jeter is a great player and is very deserving of his All-Star status. However, I am tired of the media, especially ESPN, portraying him as some sort of baseball immortal. Jeter is an above-average player who has benefited immensely from his situation on the team of the ‘90s. Let me put is this way: if Jeter were on the Royals, he wouldn’t be nicknamed “Captain Clutch” or “Mr. November.”
Here’s an example of the kind of undeserving accolades Jeter receives from the media. Do you remember the play Jeter made on July 1, 2004 against the Red Sox? The one where he caught the ball in fair territory and somehow managed to dive into the fans as if he was crowd-surfing at a rock concert? The official MLB website remarks, “He emerged from the stands with a bruise on his right cheek, a cut on his chin, and a new highlight to be seen for years to come.” This was a good play, but Jeter made it extraordinary by unnecessarily diving into the stands. I quickly became sick of repeatedly watching his swan-dive on SportsCenter and reading about it online. Again, if SS Royce Clayton of the Colorado Rockies were to make this play, it would get maybe half of the attention.
The media’s obsession with Jeter’s “patented” jump-throw from deep in the hole is another example of how overrated the guy is. Many baseball fans consider Jeter to be an exceptional defensive player and point to his 2 Gold Gloves (2004 and 2005) as proof. The reality is that Jeter is an average defender who benefits from the national spotlight in New York City. Jeter’s fielding statistics prove this notion.
Yes, I’ve read Moneyball too. I know that the subjectivity of fielding statistics makes them hard to use quantitatively. For example, there’s the classic question of how one defines an error. However, despite their drawbacks, I believe they can be used as general references.
Jeter’s career fielding percentage is .975. According to www.baseball-reference.com, the fielding percentage that an average player would have in the same amount of opportunities [(A + PO) / (A + PO + E)] is virtually the same at .972. Jeter’s range factor per game [(A + PO) / G] is 4.09, while the league average is slightly better at 4.15. While statistics cannot capture every intricacy of fielding, I think they can be used to get a general idea of a player’s skill, or in Jeter’s case, lack of skill.
How many commercials and pre-game shows have you seen in the playoffs lauding Derek Jeter for his playoff accomplishments and ability to step it up in crucial situations? The idea that Jeter performs at a higher level during the playoffs is yet another myth. Here are some career statistics that prove this:
Regular Season 162 Game Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB 655 123 206 33 5 18 81 23 6 68 116 .314 .386 .461 302 SH SF IBB HBP GDP 6 4 2 11 15 Postseason 162 Game Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB 650 114 200 25 4 22 66 22 4 70 127 .307 .379 .463 299 SH SF IBB HBP GDP 11 4 - 7 -
Jeter’s postseason numbers are virtually the same as his regular season averages, and are slightly worse, if anything. Forget the importance of Jeter’s record for having the most postseason hits in history (142). How many hits would the Babe have tallied if he had played in the ALDS and ALCS rounds of the playoffs? Further, Jeter’s hit total is more of a product of having extremely talented teammates who allowed him the opportunity to come to bat so frequently.
The media’s lovefest with Jeter is not going to stop anytime soon. Sadly, I know he will be a first-ballot Hall of Fame inductee. Bill James has compiled a few measures to determine both a player’s deservedness to be in the HOF and likelihood of reaching it. The first test, named the HOF Standards Test, is based on a complex evaluation of a variety of batting stats, mostly percentages and lifetime statistics. It shows how deserving a player is of HOF status. The average HOF player has a score of 50. Jeter’s is 45.9.
James’ second test is called the HOF Monitor Test, and is mostly concerned with single-season batting statistical benchmarks, postseason involvement and awards won. This test reveals how likely it is for a player to reach the HOF. A score of 100 means the player has a good chance of getting in, and a score of 130 assures that the player is a virtual lock. Jeter’s score is 161.5.
The disparity between how deserving Jeter is of HOF status and how likely he is to be inducted clearly shows how overrated he is. While his personal achievements might merit HOF consideration, he will almost certainly be enshrined in Cooperstown due to the hype that surrounds him.
Make no mistake; Derek Jeter is a great player. I respect his skills and the professionalism he brings to the ballpark every day. It’s not his fault he is surrounded by amazing teammates and is so overrated. I blame the institution of sports media. The media loves to latch onto one player on a successful team and undeservedly make him into an icon. Just look at Tom Brady. >>
What more can you say? I think the point is made, and the subject is now closed. Next topic!
Jeter’s career fielding percentage is .975. According to www.baseball-reference.com, the fielding percentage that an average player would have in the same amount of opportunities [(A + PO) / (A + PO + E)] is virtually the same at .972. Jeter’s range factor per game [(A + PO) / G] is 4.09, while the league average is slightly better at 4.15. While statistics cannot capture every intricacy of fielding, I think they can be used to get a general idea of a player’s skill, or in Jeter’s case, lack of skill
Another, lets talk out of both sides of our mouth diatribe from some anti newyorker
Ok so then I guess we can agree on the following:
That jeter is an elite ballplayer that through no faukt of his own is overrated due to the market he plays in? I mean that is what boo basically said and what you agreed too? I find it odd that you agree with boo then throw up this article. then again nothing surprises me anymore.
So all the back and forth trying to minimise his accomplishments yesterday was??? what? anti newyork bias on your part?
I found this article to be as funny, if not more so then that espn poll you tried to use.
<< <i>Hey Boo, the more and more I see A-Rod strike out with men on base late in games (again last night, all last year) I have to wonder if he has the shoe shining he will give Jeter after the game on his mind >>
More silliness. If your team wins 9-8 the two run double that scored the 4th run in the 5th inning is just as important- or at least almost as important- as the 'clutch' single that scored the 9th run in the 8th.
The only competitive endeavor I'm involved in is league bowling, so allow me a comparison. When your anchor bowler misses a 10 pin in the 10th frame and you lose by 8 sticks it's easy to get on the guy for missing an easy spare; but there's no reason to think his 10 pin was any more or less important than the 6 pin which you missed in the 4th frame.
Also, I'm just astounded by how many Yankee fans refuse to get behind A-Rod; a man who is in my mind the best baseball player of our generation. Did I miss a memo, or is this not the same guy who hit FORTY EIGHT HOME RUNS last year and averaged THREE TWENTY ONE as a right handed hitter in Yankee stadium?? And don't start in with that 'he doesn't do it in the post season' crap, because without him in the lineup the Yankees don't even get a whiff of October baseball last year. If anyone here would honestly rather have Jeter than A-Rod they need to get their lips of the pipe and start looking into quality outpatient rehab programs in their area.
Maybe tomorrow you'll have a reasonable argument. Saying 'Ichiro Sucks' or 'Ichiro's Overrated' just proves how completely delusional and unbalanced you truly are.
taking a page out of the book de axtell:
show me where I said Ichiro sucks?
cmon and while you're at it answer Dallas's question too.
<< <i>Axtell don't you ever get tired of getting slapped down? dallas slaps ya down, Softy slaps ya down, I slap ya down. Skip, mcdaddy jeese the list is a long one. the only whiny bit$h here is you.
Steve
edited to add ICHIRO SUCKS
------------------------- Steve D
Collecting: Mars Attacks 1965 Topps Baseball 2003 Bazooka Standups pre 1950 European tobacco cards myurl The Key to see pics of my Mars attacks set.
Edited: Wednesday April 19, 2006 at 9:43 PM by WinPitcher >>
Axhole Before you should EVER expect an apology from anyone on this board, why havent you given a public apology to Perry for your racist, ignorant assumptions on the "Randy was Dandy" thread? You dont even have the BALLS to be a man and admit what you said was racist and ignorant....thus you being the monkey in a man's world.
<< <i>Axhole Before you should EVER expect an apology from anyone on this board, why havent you given a public apology to Perry for your racist, ignorant assumptions on the "Randy was Dandy" thread? You dont even have the BALLS to be a man and admit what you said was racist and ignorant....thus you being the monkey in a man's world. >>
yankeeno-
I am not a racist. I am not ignorant. Pandrews fits the mold of countless, angst ridden WHITE people in this country. He smokes weed, he listens to rap, and thinks he's a thug. That's not racist, that's fact (until he counters otherwise...and when he offers his race, if wrong, I have admitted I will apologize.).
Perhaps you should go stick your nose elsewhere, as it doesn't belong here. You obviously are one of those weak willed individuals who never get into altercations, you just 'cheer' from the sidelines, as you yourself don't want to get bloodied.
Just because someone doesnt have a need to answer to your assumptions you feel you still have that right to judge them? Even IF Perry did all those things then why does him being WHITE have anything to do with his actions or what he says?
I'll stick my nose anywhere I want to on an open thread. I think the decription of someone who has never been in an altercation is you describing yourself hiding behind big words. I have no problem getting bloodied...thats why I have no problem bringing up you being racist and ignorant on this thread! You defend your actions by being MORE ignorant...you have NO defense so you tell me to keep my nose out of it. What on this God's green earth can you do about me making any statement I wish? Go cry to mommy?
I did not say that Jeter wasn't a great player. He very well may get to 3000, but everybody thinks that he is on his way to 6000 hits. He may have 171 home runs, but everybody thinks he has 571
Frank you usually say intelligent things. This time though you are way off base.
Axhole...............forget it.
Steve
------------------------- Steve D
Collecting: Mars Attacks 1965 Topps Baseball 2003 Bazooka Standups pre 1950 European tobacco cards myurl The Key to see pics of my Mars attacks set.
MY ONLY POST ON PAGE 1 OF THIS THREAD
So Einstein now show me where on page 1 of this thread i said Ichiro sucks? I said it on page 3. For which I said in jest after saying he was a good/great ballplayer.
You are dense. You love to nitpick over the slightest of details.
Forget Brianna Axhole. He's been burned so much this past week he must be crispy. Until the next opportunity, Im done with this dork (I suggest you look up the definition of "dork" because it fits you in every possible description)
yankeeno i agree, this punk has so many arguments with so many different people going on at the same time one needs a scorecard to keep track. The common denominater is always him
axtell and this guy, axtell and that guy.
jeese you think he would just shut up and lurk for a few days
I'm done with this dork myself.
he I'm sure will reply so he can have the last word.
Please axhole no pms I do not want to talk to you.
probably.. you certainly PM'd me last night, trying to find out what race i am, so you could see if you're racial stereotypes are correct based on "behavior and attitude"..
<< <i>Another, lets talk out of both sides of our mouth diatribe from some anti newyorker >>
Why does someone who points out the Jeter hype have to be an "anti-NewYorker"? Now you can't be critical of a player who plays in NY without being slapped with the "anti-NewYorker" tag? Every time I bring the thread into focus with facts, articles, and statistics - it degenerates into name calling and insults that are really off-base. My opinion is that Jeter is overrated, I have explained why, and even shown why many people also think the same.
And, by the way, I realize Jeter is a leadoff or #2 hitter (now all of a sudden we are making excuses for his lack of power, but I'll go with this) and his job is to get on base. Why then is his career OPS a very average .846? This counts slugging along with OPB, and is a better barometer of how effective a player in his position is offensively. In his case, it's not all that spectacular. Again with the fielding, his career fielding percentage of .976 is exceeded by many other less-regarded SS in the game today, including that of A-Rod when he played SS.
until you answer, you have no credibility. So shut it.
ct-
I couldn't agree more. The whole frenzied 'anti NY' tag that gets thrown around reminds me of the blind 'anti American' tag that gets thrown at anyone who dares to question the bush administration.
NYites are so arrogant they feel anyone who points out weaknesses is somehow a NY basher. They need to get over themselves and realize they aren't perfect or ideal.
If you are referring to me, I think, (but at this point am not sure) my anti ny bias comment was directed at the writer, not you. You do have to admit that this post has gone off on some wild tangents. I agree jeter is over rated. It is easier to just agree it seems. like you I too have tried to offer proof to the contrary only to be shown polls, articles and theories. He is over rated. does it matter?
until you answer, you have no credibility. So shut it. >>
ok, i'll answer.. what question do you want to ask me? is it about my race? why do you want to know? so you can see if you racially stereotyped me correctly?..
I didn't call Jerry any names either I THINK I did insinuate that he may be gobbling up these off beat articles and running with them as some kind of proof that Derek Jeter is over rated. He did say that Jeter would be un known in places like Kansas City, etc which is simply not true. No way. Anyway, I like Jerry the freaking Sox fan no matter what I say
the same question I've been asking you for 3 days now. Please stop playing dumb (I'm assuming you're playing?)
softy-
these articles, polls, and the like aren't 'proof' but to simply show the sentiment that Jeter is overrated isn't limited to some people here, or 'anti NY' people.
I have never denied that Jeter is pumped up in the press. What I do have a problem with is the ones who choose only the stats that Jeter has that may not be elite like to try and tear him down into some also ran average shortstop. THAT is what I argue against and for good reason. Derek Jeter has Hall of Fame credentials at this point of his career PERIOD. If anyone wants to tell me that he is over rated because of the PRESS he gets and that reason ONLY I can buy that. The home run arguement for instance was ridiculous. Gaudy steroid era home run totals are not Derek Jeters game. Scoring TONS of runs, getting TONS of base hits, batting WELL over .300 for his career, stealing important bases and being a genuine leader in a crazy clubhouse ARE Derek Jeters makeup.
Comments
i was watching the o's yankees game on mlb.tv - jeter f's up an easy out in the 3rd and 3 o's runs end up scoring on the extended inning. it was then ruled a base-hit so unless you saw it, you'd think jeter did his job. i'm sure most scorers are "homers" for their team, but sometimes it's ridiculous.
<< <i>i'm using this as an example not because i hate the yankees (i do), but because i just saw it.
i was watching the o's yankees game on mlb.tv - jeter f's up an easy out in the 3rd and 3 o's runs end up scoring on the extended inning. it was then ruled a base-hit so unless you saw it, you'd think jeter did his job. i'm sure most scorers are "homers" for their team, but sometimes it's ridiculous. >>
Why do I have the feeling that we will soon be rehashing the validity of Joe D's hitting streak?
Keith
Well, now that you mentioned it . . . .
Really?
I suggest you re read the thread I think I saw a FEW people say the same thing.
As for hatred vile spewing towards you I only spew back at the vile crap you spew as well.
Now Ill say it again ICHIRO is overrated. Like mentioned by OTHERS the Mariners are a crappy team with or without him. I never said he was not a good/great ballplayer.
Stop whining about everything I post. You sound like a lil BlTCH when you do.
You can have your opinions and I can have mine.
Steve
Dallas,
It was easier for ms. axhole to address me and my socalled vile hatred BS. then to answer your question.
He can barely keep up with me, with you he is in a no win situation. you eat him up and spit him out.
Steve
CT you are aware that he is a LEADOFF / #2 batter?
You also conviently did not mention that he SCORES 100 plus runs a season. That is his true value to the team. SCORING runs, not driving them in.
The list you come up with btw is laughable. I suggest you look at his stats once again.
put him in Boston the past 10 years and you would be screaming very loudly how great he is.
lets give the guy the due he deserves. no more or less.
Edited to ask: how did you arrive at 14.25 homers per season? in 10 seasons he has hit 169 homers. that would be almost 17 per year.
Steve
<< <i>Edited to ask: how did you arrive at 14.25 homers per season? in 10 seasons he has hit 169 homers. that would be almost 17 per year. >>
Actually, I took his meager HR total of 169 and divided it by 12, not 10 - I realized that was counting this season, and the 1995 season where he only played 15 games. You are correct - 17 HR's a year it is.
And, Jeter scores 100 runs a year.
cmon you can do better then that jery.
steve
Actually, I took his meager HR total of 169 and divided it by 12, not 10 - I realized that was counting this season, and the 1995 season where he only played 15 games. You are correct - 17 HR's a year it is.
a lil anti ny bias jery? meager? 169 dingers is meager?
Jery, time to call a spade a spade here. i just re read the WHOLE thread and .........................
Besides Frank, ONLY you and AXHOLE have said that Jeter is overrated!!
many of us? i just do not see it bud.
Steve
Here is a question from an ESPN.com poll conducted last season -
Who is baseball's most overrated fielder?
44.7% Derek Jeter, SS
22.1% Bret Boone, 2B
13.3% Edgar Renteria, SS
12.7% Nick Johnson, 1B
7.2% Andruw Jones, OF
How about this - I would consider Barry Larkin to be a better SS than Jeter ever will be. He unfortunately came after Ozzie, and before the era of A-Rod, Nomar, and Tejada. Offensive numbers are similar to Jeter, but again - Jeter has the lousy defensive numbers. If I am not mistaken, when Jeter was in the Yankees farm system, they thought of perhaps moving him to 3B because of his limited range in the field.
<eyeroll>
I'm thinking that if jeter was a mamber of the red sox your opinion would be a little bit different of him. he would then be the best thing since sliced bread.
First, to minimise his power you divide his total by 12 in stead of 10. then when it is mentioned that he is in fact the leadoff guy and he scores 100 PLUS runs a season you lamely attempt to ridicule that by saying you could score 100 runs a season. That he is a product of his enviroment is ridicoulous. Now its some lame espn. com list. Is he the best ever? no one ever said he is. You Yankee haters need to face the facts. The guy is a great ballplayer.
Give him his due, stop making up lame facts.
Steve
I didn't minimize his already minimal HR total on purpose - I admit I didn't look at his career stats that closely and made a math error. Really not a big deal though, is it? 14 HR's or 17 HR's a season is lame either way.
the whole point you seem to want to miss is that 17 homers a year for a SS is not lame.
especially one that also averages 190 hits a year and SCORES 100 PLUS runs.
amd you have yet to answer IF HE WAS A SOX? would he then suck?? or would he then be the best ever??
answer the question. if he was a member of the redsox would he still suck??
I admit I didn't look at his career stats that closely
That is the first thing that you have said that makes any sense. GO AND LOOK then come back and make a post.
You took a portion of my sentence out of context - I looked at his stats closely enough, this is besides the point. Offensively, he is good, not great, and let's face facts here...defensively, he does suck. One thing casual fans often point out about Jeter are his occasional "highlight reel" plays that they show over and over on the YES network. But, this is usually because of his poor defensive range. Players with poor range like Jeter are often found diving for balls, and making what look like spectacular plays. Players with excellent range rarely have to dive for a ball because they are usually in proper position to make the play. If you want defensive stats that back this up, they are easy enough to find, but I am afraid you'll just ignore them anyway (like most of the other evidence already presented in this thread).
You also made the statement that "many of us"
care to elaborate on who exactly "many of us " are?
I disagree that he sucks defensively. you can of course have your opinion. again I must add that if he was a redsox.......
I did not take any part of what you said out of context.
you said " I did not look at his stats closely"
I must agree with you on that cuz if you had even taken a moment to look at them you would not make some of the statements that you have.
you are flip flopping in the axtell way jery.
Players with excellent range rarely have to dive for a ball because they are usually in proper position to make the play
You mean like the day he cut the ball off and flipped home to the plate? you remm the one they played over and over and over.....
Steve
Steve is right man. As much as I like ya you do tend to OVER STATE any perceived flaws if it involves a Yankee and OVER STATE any perceived compliments when it involves a Sox. Which is fine in the context of fan rivalry, but you can't carry that over to a true baseball discussion. It just doesn't do you any good. There is no way you have looked at Jeters's numbers closley and have this opinion. Not if you know what the numbers mean
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
I didn't minimize his already minimal HR total on purpose - I admit I didn't look at his career stats that closely and made a math error. Really not a big deal though, is it? 14 HR's or 17 HR's a season is lame either way. >>
Wow, these are the kind of comments that you say that make me wonder if you really know the game. I don't know, maybe you are just a great Red Sox fan which is totaly cool! BUT to come on here and tell us that a guy who has hit LEAD OFF most of his career should be vilified for averaging 17 home runs per year when his job has been to GET ON BASE definatley points to you needing to learn the ins and outs of the game. No offense brother
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Or take Tehada, who has been comparable to Jeter over the past 5 seasons but he doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Jeter does. Michael Young also springs to mind as a fine hitting shortstop who doesn't get DJ's press. Now I don't hold any of this against the Yankees, and I sure don't hold it against Jeter. But with that said many of us outside of the Yankee Nation feel like the amount of ink that's spilled over Jeter is not in proportion to his accomplishments on the field, and I think we have every reason to feel this way.
<< <i>Let's all not forget that the original question-- or at least the question that's pertinent to this thread-- is whether or not Jeter is overrated. NOT whether or not Jeter 'sucks'. Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player. But does he get more credit than he deserves? Yes, I think he does. Say whatever you want about A-Rod, but Jeter could not shine A-Rods shoes when they were both shortstops. A-Rod was that much better. Yet to year the national media talk you'd think they were dead even.
Or take Tehada, who has been comparable to Jeter over the past 5 seasons but he doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Jeter does. Michael Young also springs to mind as a fine hitting shortstop who doesn't get DJ's press. Now I don't hold any of this against the Yankees, and I sure don't hold it against Jeter. But with that said many of us outside of the Yankee Nation feel like the amount of ink that's spilled over Jeter is not in proportion to his accomplishments on the field, and I think we have every reason to feel this way. >>
Thank you, Boopotts! Very well said.
Shane
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Whoever said that Axtell and company had any sense?
The statements that "many of them" made bordererd on the ridicoulous. They can't have it both ways A more apropo title to this thread should have been " Who is the player that non new york fans are the most jealous of"
Steve
<< <i>Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player.
Whoever said that Axtell and company had any sense?
The statements that "many of them" made bordererd on the ridicoulous. They can't have it both ways A more apropo title to this thread should have been " Who is the player that non new york fans are the most jealous of"
Steve >>
Not for me. I have already said that the Yankees are probably my second favorite team, so it is not that at all. I just think that Jeter is overrated.
I could name many players that are active (talent wise) that I would rather have than Jeter. Yet, he gets "top 5 treatment". Granted, I would love to have him in the clubhouse, and yes even on my team. I am just saying that there are many more talented than Jeter that are active.
Shane
<< <i>Let's all not forget that the original question-- or at least the question that's pertinent to this thread-- is whether or not Jeter is overrated. NOT whether or not Jeter 'sucks'. Nobody with an ounce of sense would argue that Jeter is anything but an elite baseball player. But does he get more credit than he deserves? Yes, I think he does. Say whatever you want about A-Rod, but Jeter could not shine A-Rods shoes when they were both shortstops. A-Rod was that much better. Yet to year the national media talk you'd think they were dead even.
Or take Tehada, who has been comparable to Jeter over the past 5 seasons but he doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Jeter does. Michael Young also springs to mind as a fine hitting shortstop who doesn't get DJ's press. Now I don't hold any of this against the Yankees, and I sure don't hold it against Jeter. But with that said many of us outside of the Yankee Nation feel like the amount of ink that's spilled over Jeter is not in proportion to his accomplishments on the field, and I think we have every reason to feel this way. >>
Good job, and well stated boopotts. Not sure why this is not sinking in with the Jeter fan club, but it's fairly obvious to the rest of us. I'll give you yet another example, but I am prepared for the Jeter marks to pretend there is something wrong with this, too.
<< <i>The Over-hyping of Derek Jeter
Feb. 1, 2006
by Dylan Waugh, DSJ Staff Reporter
I witnessed the best play I have ever seen in any level of baseball on Oct. 13, 2001 during Game 3 of the ALDS between the New York Yankees and the Oakland Athletics. With teammate Jeremy Giambi on first base in the 7th inning, Oakland outfielder Terrence Long laced a double down the right-field line. When Yankee RF Shane Spencer overthrew two cutoff men it appeared Giambi was destined to score the tying run. SS Derek Jeter had other ideas. Jeter instinctively was in the right spot near the first base line to cut off the errant throw and flip the ball to C Jorge Posada in time to apply a swipe tag to Giambi, preserving the lead and allowing the Yankees to stage an improbable comeback and win the next three games to win the series. Without that play, I think the Yankees probably would have lost that game, and therefore the series. It should go down as one of the best plays of all time.
This being said, Derek Jeter is one of the most overrated and over-hyped baseball players of our generation.
Granted, Jeter is a great player and is very deserving of his All-Star status. However, I am tired of the media, especially ESPN, portraying him as some sort of baseball immortal. Jeter is an above-average player who has benefited immensely from his situation on the team of the ‘90s. Let me put is this way: if Jeter were on the Royals, he wouldn’t be nicknamed “Captain Clutch” or “Mr. November.”
Here’s an example of the kind of undeserving accolades Jeter receives from the media. Do you remember the play Jeter made on July 1, 2004 against the Red Sox? The one where he caught the ball in fair territory and somehow managed to dive into the fans as if he was crowd-surfing at a rock concert? The official MLB website remarks, “He emerged from the stands with a bruise on his right cheek, a cut on his chin, and a new highlight to be seen for years to come.” This was a good play, but Jeter made it extraordinary by unnecessarily diving into the stands. I quickly became sick of repeatedly watching his swan-dive on SportsCenter and reading about it online. Again, if SS Royce Clayton of the Colorado Rockies were to make this play, it would get maybe half of the attention.
The media’s obsession with Jeter’s “patented” jump-throw from deep in the hole is another example of how overrated the guy is. Many baseball fans consider Jeter to be an exceptional defensive player and point to his 2 Gold Gloves (2004 and 2005) as proof. The reality is that Jeter is an average defender who benefits from the national spotlight in New York City. Jeter’s fielding statistics prove this notion.
Yes, I’ve read Moneyball too. I know that the subjectivity of fielding statistics makes them hard to use quantitatively. For example, there’s the classic question of how one defines an error. However, despite their drawbacks, I believe they can be used as general references.
Jeter’s career fielding percentage is .975. According to www.baseball-reference.com, the fielding percentage that an average player would have in the same amount of opportunities [(A + PO) / (A + PO + E)] is virtually the same at .972. Jeter’s range factor per game [(A + PO) / G] is 4.09, while the league average is slightly better at 4.15. While statistics cannot capture every intricacy of fielding, I think they can be used to get a general idea of a player’s skill, or in Jeter’s case, lack of skill.
How many commercials and pre-game shows have you seen in the playoffs lauding Derek Jeter for his playoff accomplishments and ability to step it up in crucial situations? The idea that Jeter performs at a higher level during the playoffs is yet another myth. Here are some career statistics that prove this:
Regular Season 162 Game Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB 655 123 206 33 5 18 81 23 6 68 116 .314 .386 .461 302 SH SF IBB HBP GDP 6 4 2 11 15 Postseason 162 Game Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB 650 114 200 25 4 22 66 22 4 70 127 .307 .379 .463 299 SH SF IBB HBP GDP 11 4 - 7 -
Jeter’s postseason numbers are virtually the same as his regular season averages, and are slightly worse, if anything. Forget the importance of Jeter’s record for having the most postseason hits in history (142). How many hits would the Babe have tallied if he had played in the ALDS and ALCS rounds of the playoffs? Further, Jeter’s hit total is more of a product of having extremely talented teammates who allowed him the opportunity to come to bat so frequently.
The media’s lovefest with Jeter is not going to stop anytime soon. Sadly, I know he will be a first-ballot Hall of Fame inductee. Bill James has compiled a few measures to determine both a player’s deservedness to be in the HOF and likelihood of reaching it. The first test, named the HOF Standards Test, is based on a complex evaluation of a variety of batting stats, mostly percentages and lifetime statistics. It shows how deserving a player is of HOF status. The average HOF player has a score of 50. Jeter’s is 45.9.
James’ second test is called the HOF Monitor Test, and is mostly concerned with single-season batting statistical benchmarks, postseason involvement and awards won. This test reveals how likely it is for a player to reach the HOF. A score of 100 means the player has a good chance of getting in, and a score of 130 assures that the player is a virtual lock. Jeter’s score is 161.5.
The disparity between how deserving Jeter is of HOF status and how likely he is to be inducted clearly shows how overrated he is. While his personal achievements might merit HOF consideration, he will almost certainly be enshrined in Cooperstown due to the hype that surrounds him.
Make no mistake; Derek Jeter is a great player. I respect his skills and the professionalism he brings to the ballpark every day. It’s not his fault he is surrounded by amazing teammates and is so overrated. I blame the institution of sports media. The media loves to latch onto one player on a successful team and undeservedly make him into an icon. Just look at Tom Brady.
>>
What more can you say? I think the point is made, and the subject is now closed. Next topic!
From another rNY basher:
Jeter’s career fielding percentage is .975. According to www.baseball-reference.com, the fielding percentage that an average player would have in the same amount of opportunities [(A + PO) / (A + PO + E)] is virtually the same at .972. Jeter’s range factor per game [(A + PO) / G] is 4.09, while the league average is slightly better at 4.15. While statistics cannot capture every intricacy of fielding, I think they can be used to get a general idea of a player’s skill, or in Jeter’s case, lack of skill
Another, lets talk out of both sides of our mouth diatribe from some anti newyorker
Ok so then I guess we can agree on the following:
That jeter is an elite ballplayer that through no faukt of his own is overrated due to the market he plays in? I mean that is what boo basically said and what you agreed too? I find it odd that you agree with boo then throw up this article. then again nothing surprises me anymore.
So all the back and forth trying to minimise his accomplishments yesterday was??? what? anti newyork bias on your part?
I found this article to be as funny, if not more so then that espn poll you tried to use.
Steve
So then, Jeter is:
- a hitter with average power and offensive stats that are rarely considered exceptional
- an average to below average fielder, who isn't even the best player at his position on his very own team
Jeter:
2004 AL Gold Glove Winner
2005 AL Gold Glove Winner
I guess you know more than the voters that count.
<< <i>Hey Boo, the more and more I see A-Rod strike out with men on base late in games (again last night, all last year) I have to wonder if he has the shoe shining he will give Jeter after the game on his mind
More silliness. If your team wins 9-8 the two run double that scored the 4th run in the 5th inning is just as important- or at least almost as important- as the 'clutch' single that scored the 9th run in the 8th.
The only competitive endeavor I'm involved in is league bowling, so allow me a comparison. When your anchor bowler misses a 10 pin in the 10th frame and you lose by 8 sticks it's easy to get on the guy for missing an easy spare; but there's no reason to think his 10 pin was any more or less important than the 6 pin which you missed in the 4th frame.
Also, I'm just astounded by how many Yankee fans refuse to get behind A-Rod; a man who is in my mind the best baseball player of our generation. Did I miss a memo, or is this not the same guy who hit FORTY EIGHT HOME RUNS last year and averaged THREE TWENTY ONE as a right handed hitter in Yankee stadium?? And don't start in with that 'he doesn't do it in the post season' crap, because without him in the lineup the Yankees don't even get a whiff of October baseball last year. If anyone here would honestly rather have Jeter than A-Rod they need to get their lips of the pipe and start looking into quality outpatient rehab programs in their area.
taking a page out of the book de axtell:
show me where I said Ichiro sucks?
cmon and while you're at it answer Dallas's question too.
Steve
<< <i>
show me where I said Ichiro sucks?
Steve >>
Page 1 of this very thread:
<< <i>Axtell don't you ever get tired of getting slapped down? dallas slaps ya down, Softy slaps ya down, I slap ya down. Skip, mcdaddy jeese the list is a long one. the only whiny bit$h here is you.
Steve
edited to add ICHIRO SUCKS
-------------------------
Steve D
Collecting:
Mars Attacks
1965 Topps Baseball
2003 Bazooka Standups
pre 1950 European tobacco cards
myurl The Key to see pics of my Mars attacks set.
Edited: Wednesday April 19, 2006 at 9:43 PM by WinPitcher >>
I'll accept your humble apology now.
just making sure you're on the ball.
btw he is overrated, but does not suck.
steve
edited to add" actually it was on page 3. not page 1
and it was said in jest after I had said 3 or 4 times that he was a good/grat ballplayer. but what is right is right and I did say it.
Before you should EVER expect an apology from anyone on this board, why havent you given a public apology to Perry for your racist, ignorant assumptions on the "Randy was Dandy" thread?
You dont even have the BALLS to be a man and admit what you said was racist and ignorant....thus you being the monkey in a man's world.
<< <i>Axhole
Before you should EVER expect an apology from anyone on this board, why havent you given a public apology to Perry for your racist, ignorant assumptions on the "Randy was Dandy" thread?
You dont even have the BALLS to be a man and admit what you said was racist and ignorant....thus you being the monkey in a man's world. >>
yankeeno-
I am not a racist. I am not ignorant. Pandrews fits the mold of countless, angst ridden WHITE people in this country. He smokes weed, he listens to rap, and thinks he's a thug. That's not racist, that's fact (until he counters otherwise...and when he offers his race, if wrong, I have admitted I will apologize.).
Perhaps you should go stick your nose elsewhere, as it doesn't belong here. You obviously are one of those weak willed individuals who never get into altercations, you just 'cheer' from the sidelines, as you yourself don't want to get bloodied.
Go away.
Steve
yeah, I am the ignorant one, right?
You're too busy running your yap and arguing with anyone who dares to question the 'greatness' of Jeter, you don't know what you're saying.
Just because someone doesnt have a need to answer to your assumptions you feel you still have that right to judge them? Even IF Perry did all those things then why does him being WHITE have anything to do with his actions or what he says?
I'll stick my nose anywhere I want to on an open thread. I think the decription of someone who has never been in an altercation is you describing yourself hiding behind big words. I have no problem getting bloodied...thats why I have no problem bringing up you being racist and ignorant on this thread! You defend your actions by being MORE ignorant...you have NO defense so you tell me to keep my nose out of it. What on this God's green earth can you do about me making any statement I wish? Go cry to mommy?
Be a man Brianna....and not an ignorant man.
First off you asked for an apology, and got it.
secondly you claimed and keep claiming I said it on the FIRST page of this very thread when IN FACT I said it on page 3.
what is the problem? you asked for an apology and got it.
Yes you are ignorant. what about it?
Ok i will bite SHOW ME WHERE ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS THREAD I SAID ICHIRO SUCKS?? I said it on page 3.
That is all I was saying AFTER I gave you the apology you asked for. Which by the way is more then you deserved.
Steve
I did not say that Jeter wasn't a great player. He very well may get to 3000, but everybody thinks that he is on his way to 6000 hits. He may have 171 home runs, but everybody thinks he has 571
Frank you usually say intelligent things. This time though you are way off base.
Axhole...............forget it.
Steve
-------------------------
Steve D
Collecting:
Mars Attacks
1965 Topps Baseball
2003 Bazooka Standups
pre 1950 European tobacco cards
myurl The Key to see pics of my Mars attacks set.
MY ONLY POST ON PAGE 1 OF THIS THREAD
So Einstein now show me where on page 1 of this thread i said Ichiro sucks? I said it on page 3. For which I said in jest after saying he was a good/great ballplayer.
You are dense. You love to nitpick over the slightest of details.
Steve
axtell and this guy, axtell and that guy.
jeese you think he would just shut up and lurk for a few days
I'm done with this dork myself.
he I'm sure will reply so he can have the last word.
Please axhole no pms I do not want to talk to you.
Steve
Did I PM you? You're done with me? We've all heard this song before. Let's see if you can keep your word.
<< <i>WP-
Did I PM you? You're done with me? >>
probably.. you certainly PM'd me last night, trying to find out what race i am, so you could see if you're racial stereotypes are correct based on "behavior and attitude"..
racist..
schizo..
<< <i>Another, lets talk out of both sides of our mouth diatribe from some anti newyorker >>
Why does someone who points out the Jeter hype have to be an "anti-NewYorker"? Now you can't be critical of a player who plays in NY without being slapped with the "anti-NewYorker" tag? Every time I bring the thread into focus with facts, articles, and statistics - it degenerates into name calling and insults that are really off-base. My opinion is that Jeter is overrated, I have explained why, and even shown why many people also think the same.
And, by the way, I realize Jeter is a leadoff or #2 hitter (now all of a sudden we are making excuses for his lack of power, but I'll go with this) and his job is to get on base. Why then is his career OPS a very average .846? This counts slugging along with OPB, and is a better barometer of how effective a player in his position is offensively. In his case, it's not all that spectacular. Again with the fielding, his career fielding percentage of .976 is exceeded by many other less-regarded SS in the game today, including that of A-Rod when he played SS.
until you answer, you have no credibility. So shut it.
ct-
I couldn't agree more. The whole frenzied 'anti NY' tag that gets thrown around reminds me of the blind 'anti American' tag that gets thrown at anyone who dares to question the bush administration.
NYites are so arrogant they feel anyone who points out weaknesses is somehow a NY basher. They need to get over themselves and realize they aren't perfect or ideal.
If you are referring to me, I think, (but at this point am not sure) my anti ny bias comment was directed at the writer, not you. You do have to admit that this post has gone off on some wild tangents. I agree jeter is over rated. It is easier to just agree it seems. like you I too have tried to offer proof to the contrary only to be shown polls, articles and theories. He is over rated. does it matter?
I sure as heck did not call you any names.
Steve
<< <i>pandrews-
until you answer, you have no credibility. So shut it.
>>
ok, i'll answer.. what question do you want to ask me? is it about my race? why do you want to know? so you can see if you racially stereotyped me correctly?..
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
the same question I've been asking you for 3 days now. Please stop playing dumb (I'm assuming you're playing?)
softy-
these articles, polls, and the like aren't 'proof' but to simply show the sentiment that Jeter is overrated isn't limited to some people here, or 'anti NY' people.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I agree Dan.
Steve