As for Ichiro and Jeter, I will go on record as saying I don't think either one of them is overrated.
Now that that's out of the way, I will just point out that, offensively, the two are about as identical in value as two player's can be. They each have an OPS+ of 121 and their runs created per 27 outs is 6.37 for Ichiro and 6.45 for Jeter. Jeter has significantly better power and gets on base slightly more often. Ichiro makes up the difference with better stolen bases, fewer GIDP, and by playing more games every year.
If I was drafting a team I would probably pick Jeter because he was signifcantly better than Ichiro last year and I don't know if Ichiro will rebound or not, and because Jeter is a year younger. But there are probably other tie-breakers just as valid as those for choosing Ichiro. It is not at all clear to me how one could consider one of these two to be overrated and the other not. Maybe coverage is different on the coasts than it is here in flyover country, but I think I hear about the same amount coverage of each of them - and none of that coverage strikes me as undeserved in either case.
{And I don't know how Axtell does it, but he has avoided my question for a fifth time with the speed of lightning. You can't seriously think that anybody didn't notice that, can you?}
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Suzukis career batting average is 26 points higher than Pierres. I like both players, Pierre is more underrated than Suzuki but Suzuki is a better fielder and has a better arm.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Juan Pierre is good enough, I suppose, but there's no real argument about who the better player is. As weak as Ichiro's power numbers are they still dwarf Pierre's; a 27 point difference in BA becomes a 67 point difference in slugging. The only advantage Pierre has is in SB but for every 12 more bases he steals he gets caught 7 more times - meaning he is actually hurting his team going after those extra stolen bases. And as fast as he is he grounds into nearly twice as many double plays as Ichiro.
OPS+ paints a pretty clear picture: Ichiro is 21% better than an average hitter, Pierre is 13% worse. They're not even close.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I have to admit - never once before this thread, did I ever think of comparing Juan Pierre to Ichiro. Pierre is a decent leadoff hitter with above average speed, but that's where it ends. Ichiro is one of the best pure hitters in the game - plus he has the speed and glove to round out his ability.
Now we are comparing Jeter with all-time greats like Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken? I hate this phrase - but this thread has now officially jumped the shark. Jeter is nowhere near the same caliber of fielder that Ozzie Smith was (few are, in fairness) and Ripken has much stronger numbers offensively, along with his legendary durability. Jeter's performance has declined every year since 1999.
I saved this ESPN.com article from 2001 about the myth of Jeter - (I am sure there are many more recent articles out there as well)
The day we answer the burning question, "So how much is Derek Jeter worth, anyway?"
In recent years, and especially in recent days, it's been the fashion to sing the praises of The Magnificent Derek Jeter. The Greatest Yankee Shortstop, even better than the Scooter. Maybe as good as Nomar Garciaparra. Maybe even as good as Alex Rodriguez, the $252 Million Man.
Jeter's better than Rizzuto. But is he close to being as good as Garciaparra and/or Rodriguez? Here are some key numbers for each of them:
Alex Nomar Jeter OPS 935 955 862
Garciaparra has certainly benefited from playing half his games in a good hitter's park, but the advantage certainly can't account for a 93-point difference in OPS. Same story with Rodriguez, who's actually spent the last season-and-a-half playing in a great pitcher's park (and before that, the Kingdome wasn't nearly as hitter-friendly as widely thought). As for the "little things," Jeter is a good baserunner, but no better than Rodriguez. And of course he's not often asked to bunt.
As hitters, Rodriguez and Garciaparra both earn A's, and Jeter gets a B+. Nothing to be ashamed of -- there are plenty of Hall of Fame shortstops who didn't hit like Jeter does -- but he certainly doesn't compare favorably with his slugging peers.
Well, if it's not his hitting, it must be his fielding, right? People rave about Jeter's defense, with Tim McCarver leading the wild-eyed hyperbole parade. However, there is virtually no objective evidence to support the notion that Jeter is a Gold Glove-quality shortstop.
The simplest fielding metric is called Range Factor: Putouts plus Assists, per nine innings.
And Jeter's Range Factor is, in a word, execrable. It's execrable every year. Here's where he ranked, in each of the last five seasons, among major league shortstops who started at least 100 games:
1996 20 of 24 1997 16 of 24 1998 23 of 25 1999 21 of 21 2000 23 of 23
Those numbers, elegant in their simple consistency, speak for themselves.
But of course, Range Factor is subject to all sorts of outside influences. Heinous things like pitching staffs and infield surfaces and gosh knows what else. There's a way to account for those outside influences, though. We can compare Jeter to the other Yankees who played shortstop in the same seasons that he did. Unfortunately for the purposes of this little argument, Jeter has been exceptionally durable, but the table below lists Jeter's Range Factor, along with the composite Range Factor of the other Yankee shortstops of the last five seasons.
Jeter "Others" Innings 6767 461 Range 4.27 4.32
Now, this certainly isn't conclusive. But if Jeter were truly a superior defensive shortstop, wouldn't you expect him to make more plays per nine innings, rather than slightly fewer?
As I said, Range Factor is subject to various outside influences. Fortunately, Clay Davenport (one of our colleagues at Baseball Prospectus) goes to great pains to adjust for those influences. Davenport's method rates Jeter as 23 runs worse than the average American League shortstop (given the same playing time). That was the worst in the majors.
It was also the worst showing of Jeter's career, but then he's never done well by this measure. In 1999 he was negative-12; in '98, negative-3.
And you know, it's not just Davenport. Fielding statistics are not, despite what you might have heard from your favorite Luddite, meaningless. They can be quite meaningful in the hands of bright people. And as it happens, any number of bright people -- Bill James, Tom Tippett, etc. -- have designed their own methods for evaluating defensive statistics, and I believe that they all reach the same conclusion: Derek Jeter is, at best, an adequate defensive shortstop. He simply doesn't make many plays, and that's true even if you adjust for the left-handedness (or not) of the Yankee pitchers, and it's true even if you also adjust for the tendency of the Yankee pitchers to allow ground balls (or not).
Is Jeter the worst defensive shortstop in the major leagues? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. There is some evidence to suggest that he is, but I'm sure there's evidence to suggest that he isn't, too. My point is that there's no evidence to suggest that he's an outstanding defensive shortstop, or even a good one.
Wait, that's not precisely true. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence in Jeter's favor. McCarver thinks he's great, and so do a lot of other people. But you know, even Tim McCarver doesn't know everything. McCarver sees that Jeter is adept at snagging pops in short left field, and McCarver sees that Jeter does, indeed, boast a powerful arm. But other observers have seen that Jeter doesn't get a good jump on grounders -- the single most important skill for any middle infielder -- and others have cast doubt on his footwork, especially when he fields balls up the middle.
I simply don't believe that Jeter is a good fielder; nevertheless, the notion that he is a good fielder will likely endure as one of the great baseball myths of our time.
After reading all this, somebody out there will still be arguing, "Yeah, but Jeter's a winner. How many World Series have those other guys won?"
The answer, of course, is that they haven't won any. Zero, compared to Jeter's four.
Vlad Guerrero hasn't played for a World Series winner yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Paul O'Neill? Jeff Bagwell doesn't have a ring yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Tino Martinez? Randy Johnson hasn't reached the Promised Land yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Andy Pettitte?
Of course it doesn't. It's a silly, circular argument. Derek Jeter is great because the Yankees win. The Yankees win because Derek Jeter is great. Round and round we go, and where the specious logic stops, nobody knows.
So what is Jeter worth? If you're the Yankees, he's worth whatever it costs to keep him. Because you've got bottomless pockets, and because Derek Jeter is a very good baseball player.
Those are good reasons. But let's not jump to the ill-founded conclusion that Jeter is in the same class as Rodriguez and Garciaparra. Because he's not.
I have softened on this issue a bit since first writing the column, because Jeter has proved himself to be significantly more durable than Garciaparra.
<< <i> And so what if they are singles, he's a LEADOFF hitter, he's supposed to get on base ya dope, not hit home runs. When you learn what each position in the lineup is supposed to do, come back and talk to me. As it is, your arguements, as usual, are all WET. >>
And Axtell makes himself look the fool that he is again. Derek Jeter has hit LEADOFF most of his career Ax ya fu$king idiot
MORE than comparable to the HOF'ers eluded to in this thread. The thought that Derek Jeter is over rated in some way stems from jealousy and hatred. Nothing more and nothing less.
CT, that article you saved is comical. And it is no suprise you saved it as you tend to soak up anything anti Yankee Anyway, that article could not be FARTHER off base from reality than it is.
Ichiro is a slap hitter. A VERY GOOD one at that.He is much more concerned with his hit total than moving a runner over and doing what it might take to win a ball game especially the year he set the hits record. And talk about "little" or "no" power? Ha! I would take Pierre everyday of the week over Ichiro.
I honestly didn't realize that Brett, Yount, Molitor, and Sandberg sucked that bad. Those numbers are pathetic. I guess they were good for their era but if we start using their numbers to qualify future HOF's, there will be 30 people a year getting in. Crappy players hit 18 HR's a year these days.
Looking at those numbers, I'm absolutely convinced that Barry Bonds should be a first ballot HOFer. I hate Bonds as much as the next guy but he could put up those numbers with no steriods and a quart of vodka before each game.
Saying 'Ichiro Sucks' or 'Ichiro's Overrated' just proves how completely delusional and unbalanced you truly are.
Just trying to sound like you. I gave you a great argument I compared Jeter to Ripken and Smith. As usual you discounted whatever is said to fit your obnoxious aims.
I never said Ichiro was not a good/great player. I just feel he is OVERRATED.
I suggest you go and compare Jeter and Ozzie Smith. maybe then the blinders will come off.
Smith AVERAGED 675 chances per season 14 errors 978 pct Jeter AVERAGES 640 chances per season 16 errors 972 pct Garciaparra........not in the same league defensively. constantly made errors in the 20's and fld pct was almost ALWAYS lower then peers. AVERAGED 100 chances LESS per season. Great hitter AROD....Better then Jeter at SS.......Better all around, that is WHY for those that a shortsighted (AXTELL) he was moved to 3rd base.
GROUND BALLS have not changed. 35 chances per year on average is like 1 chance more per 5 games.
<< <i>Smith AVERAGED 675 chances per season 14 errors 978 pct Jeter AVERAGES 640 chances per season 16 errors 972 pct >>
Steve, I hate to interrupt a good bich-slapping of Axtell, but I can not sit by while my man Ozzie is defamed.
To get the figures above I think you took Ozzie's total chances and divided by his 19 seasons. The problem is that Ozzie played a full career while Jeter has not; Ozzie only played partial seasons his last three years in the league, plus he has a strike season of 110 games in there. Instead, take each of their total chances, divide by their total games, and multiply by 162 - total chances per complete season. It looks like this:
Ozzie: 832 total chances Jeter: 679 total chances
That difference is almost a chance per game, not every five games, and accounts for Ozzie's range factor of 23% above the average SS and Jeter's of 1% below average (through age 31, Ozzie was 26% above average). As total players, I think comparisons between Jeter, Ripken, Smith, etc. are perfectly valid; as fielders, you have to go back to Honus Wagner to find a shortstop that is even in the same dimension as Ozzie - and Ozzie beats Wagner, too.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled backhanding.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i> I did not say that Jeter wasn't a great player. He very well may get to 3000, but everybody thinks that he is on his way to 6000 hits. He may have 171 home runs, but everybody thinks he has 571
Frank you usually say intelligent things. This time though you are way off base.
All I meant by that is this - If a player is in the Hall of Fame (or a future Hall of Famer like Jeter is), you can still be overrated. Though not technically, everybody knows that there are levels in the baseball Hall of Fame. For instance, we know that Robin Yount, though deserving of the Hall of Fame, is not even on the same planet as Aaron or Ruth. All I am saying is that Jeter will get in the Hall of Fame (and probably on the first ballot), but, to me, he is not a "top tier" Hall of Famer like everybody thinks. Therefore - OVERRATED.
Hi Fellas, some nice points being made. Not to be a pain, but here are a couple of points that may muddle things even more...
1). Ozzie is a supremely better fielder, however, not quite as much as the raw fielding numbers indicate. Ozzie played on teams where the pitching staffs were consistently at the VERY bottom in strikeouts, which meant more ground balls than the average fielder saw. That is what partly added to those incredible assist totals. I believe Jeter's era has a bit more strikouts overall, as opposed to contact outs, so that equals less chances. When scrutinized deeply, Ozzie is STILL the best defensive player ever(hence his HOF merit). Jeter is a bit below average defensive shortstop.
2). Ballpark effects! These have some problems. Not to pick on Ozzie, but Ozzie gets more credit to his stats for his tougher home ballpark, even though his style of hitting really wouldn't be affected by it as much as say George Hendrick. His OPS+ is realistically a couple of points lower than as indicated if looking at true value.
Yankee stadium is tough on RH batters, though Jeter isn't a dead pull hitter where it affects him as much as it would a Jim Rice. Jeter does pop out his share of home runs to the short porch in RF at Yankee stadium, so the home park disadvantage for RH isn't quite a disadvantage to Jeter as it would be to others. Not a major difference, but the small aspects add up a bit.
3) Ichiro. He gets the royalty treatment! Until his OB% starts to get close to Wade Boggs, then he should not be given as much credit as he routinely gets. Plus Boggs did it in a tougher era to hit in....though Boggs did take advantage of pecking away at the monster . Still, Ichiro's OB% should be the best in MLB to merit the credit he routinely gets.
4)Ichiro's singles. He does hit an empty .370. Not only are most of them singles, but a good amount are INFIELD singles. Why is that bad? An infield single does not have the same value as an outfield single, as it does not contain the same amount of baserunner advancement. A bullet single in the gap adavances runners much more than a tapper to SS(which may not advance ANY runners). I know Ichiro hits leadoff, but he also comes to the plate with men on base too.
5) Jeter being overrated. Comparing him to Ripken based on Ripken's career numbers isn't fair, as Ripken went through his old man years in those numbers. Also, Ripken played in a tougher era to hit in without question. Briefly looking at Ripken through age 31, I would say ripken has the edge in hitting. Remember, Jeter's OPS+ numbers take into account the ballpark effect, even though the ballpark may not hurt him as much as others. Jeter could make that ground up still though.
6) Jeter in the end. He gets waaay too much hoopla for his 'intangibles' which is mostly conjecture and hogwash. What ends up happening is that some people recognize the B.S. in that and call him waay overrated. What ends up happening is that it actually underrates his true accomplishments. Jeter is a heckuva player, and in the end will merit Hall of Fame induction. I didn't take a long look at his accomplishments, but just did a cursory look, and by memory.
I see WP's blind hatred of me continues unabated. I would have thought a good night's sleep would have given you a fresh start..what, no nookie by the ole lady?
As far as dallas goes, the only backhanding going on here are against those DOPES who think that Ichiro is overrated, and that Jeter has earned his fame. As has been mentioned repeatedly, 18 homers a year is a joke, and are not 'power' numbers.
Comparing Jeter to Ozzie is an absolute joke, and comparing him to Ripken is even more ridiculous.
softy will cry for days, but if Jeter played in pittsburgh or some other small market team, he'd be a NOBODY. As it is, he gets tons of (unwarranted) acclaim for his accomplishments.
Now that we've all established Jeter as the most overrated player in the AL, is there anyone more deserving of this 'award' in the NL as Beltran? He has 1/2 of a good season, signs a huge payday, everyone is on board with him saying he's the next great deal, and he continually stinks up the joint.
I would be curious if one of you could post a comparison of stats between Jeter and Omar Vizquel.
Now someone start a "Most Under-rated" thread. >>
Jeter and Vizquel would be an extremely lopsided comparison, at least as far as offense goes, and Vizquel isn't nearly that much better at fielding to make up for it. Vizquel and Pierre are pretty comparable, for what that's worth.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i>Comparing Jeter to Ozzie is an absolute joke, and comparing him to Ripken is even more ridiculous. >>
Comparing Jeter to Ozzie is comparing apples and oranges IMO; any attempt to do so - even including by Bill James and others who devote their lives to such comparisons - ultimately includes too much guesswork to prove anything. Ozzie was a much better fielder, Jeter is a much better hitter; they each fit almost perfectly into the roles they were expected to play.
But if we can't compare Jeter to Ripken, then who exactly can we compare to anybody? Right now, Jeter has a fair lead on Ripken as an offensive player, but Ripken was barely average once he passed thirty so that drags him down quite a bit. If Jeter holds steady for several more years, or just declines less abruptly than Ripken did, he will retire as a better player than Ripken was. If not, then he won't; but comparing the two is hardly ridiculous.
And may I assume that you have realized how ridiculous you look everytime you crawl out from your rock, spout some nonsense about Jeter not moving to third base, and then crawl back under when you are asked about it? If not, you are the only one. Better you should explain some more about how Bush blew up the WTC on 9/11; once you find those engineers to back you up, of course.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i>And may I assume that you have realized how ridiculous you look everytime you crawl out from your rock, spout some nonsense about Jeter not moving to third base, and then crawl back under when you are asked about it? If not, you are the only one. Better you should explain some more about how Bush blew up the WTC on 9/11; once you find those engineers to back you up, of course. >>
First, please point out where I said BUSH was responsible for blowing up the WTC? You are making leaps in my posts that I did not. I know this alone is what has you so hot under the collar, as Bush is your boy and all, but I never said NOR implied Bush was responsible.
Now that you've been backhanded yet again, please, please find where I said Bush was responsible. Otherwise, shut your g'damned mouth.
<< <i>And may I assume that you have realized how ridiculous you look everytime you crawl out from your rock, spout some nonsense about Jeter not moving to third base, and then crawl back under when you are asked about it? If not, you are the only one. Better you should explain some more about how Bush blew up the WTC on 9/11; once you find those engineers to back you up, of course. >>
First, please point out where I said BUSH was responsible for blowing up the WTC? You are making leaps in my posts that I did not. I know this alone is what has you so hot under the collar, as Bush is your boy and all, but I never said NOR implied Bush was responsible.
Now that you've been backhanded yet again, please, please find where I said Bush was responsible. Otherwise, shut your g'damned mouth. >>
a lot of this would be put to rest if you would take a minute and explain why you think Jeter should have been moved to 3rd instead of A-Rod.
<< <i> a lot of this would be put to rest if you would take a minute and explain why you think Jeter should have been moved to 3rd instead of A-Rod. >>
Arod was the best shortstop in the league, not only offensively, but defensively as well. He was superior in every way to Jeter. Instead of being the 'captain' and offering to move to third base with Arod (the better shortstop) coming in, it was assumed he would get to keep his natural position.
I would have had a ton more respect for Jeter if he would have at least offered to try it out, see how it felt, see if he could do it, but nope, he was too selfish to learn a new position. Hardly captain worthy, and yet another notch in the 'overrated' column.
Dallas, yes i did exactly like you stated. I divided by 19. when jeter gets into 19 seasons then perhaps the averages would differ. I certaintly was not defaming Smith as i used him as he is the standard by which all SS should be measured. To me a season is a season is a season. That is what makes an avearge an average. (to me of course) perhaps not to you. I was averaging to date for jeter. Everyone likes to throw numbers around. I threw a few around too.
Axtell you keep saying 18 homers is a joke. He is a SHORTSTOP, 18 dingers is pretty good for a Shortstop/leadoff man.
How do you (Axtell) know that he did not discuss the issue with Torre? I mean you base your entire diatribe on the fact that he did not offer? how the hell do you know what he did or did not do?
You constantly change what you say on a whim. I stand by my comparisons. I was not to far off as some here agreed with the ripken assesment while to you it was "the most ridicoulous thing I ever have said" bla bla bla. I suggest you sit back and just listen for a spell. perhaps you will learn a few things.
<< <i>Now that you've been backhanded yet again, please, please find where I said Bush was responsible. Otherwise, shut your g'damned mouth. >>
For the benefit of those who are not as fascinated as I am with the sheer magnitude of Axtell's stupidity and the associated 9/11 rantings, I mentioned in a post quite a while ago that Axtell never actually said who was responsible. Several other people who posted made the assumption that Axtell meant Bush, I noted that these people had made that assumption and that Axtell had never corrected them, and I eventually came to the same conclusion myself since Axtell's silence seemed to imply agreement.
I may have been mistaken, although Axtell is still playing coy by not saying that Bush WASN'T responsible, so I may still be right. So, Professor Axtell, let's clear this up once and for all: who is it that you are claiming gave the order to blow up the WTC on 9/11, directly causing the deaths of hundreds of people? And I know this isn't the right forum for this, but you cried like a little schoolgirl the last time I copied one of your posts to a different forum.
{And please stop saying you are backhanding me; I get this mental image of you breaking a nail and I laugh so hard I can hardly breathe}
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i> For the benefit of those who are not as fascinated as I am with the sheer magnitude of Axtell's stupidity and the associated 9/11 rantings, I mentioned in a post quite a while ago that Axtell never actually said who was responsible. Several other people who posted made the assumption that Axtell meant Bush, I noted that these people had made that assumption and that Axtell had never corrected them, and I eventually came to the same conclusion myself since Axtell's silence seemed to imply agreement. >>
So through implications you assumed something that I never said, right? I am still waiting for you to say where I posted Bush was responsible.
<< <i>I may have been mistaken, although Axtell is still playing coy by not saying that Bush WASN'T responsible, so I may still be right. So, Professor Axtell, let's clear this up once and for all: who is it that you are claiming gave the order to blow up the WTC on 9/11, directly causing the deaths of hundreds of people? And I know this isn't the right forum for this, but you cried like a little schoolgirl the last time I copied one of your posts to a different forum. >>
Please stop spinning, boy! The burden of proof is on YOU to provide concrete evidence where I said that Bush was responsible. I will save you the trouble - I never said it. Now that you've been beaten to a pulp again, are you ready to cry 'uncle'?
And you laugh breathlessly from a mental image? Wow you sure do have a simple mind, don't ya boy?
Actually I got that impression after reading this:
From Axtells mouth.........
Why would Bush take over the saudi oil fields that are (a) drying up and (b) held by long time family friends?
Why is it so inconceivable to think that Bush would sacrifice thousands of americans to go after what he wants? You think he honestly cares one bit about the people he was 'elected' to govern?
He has shown total disregard to human lives both here and abroad. His lack of punctuality in dealing with Katrina's aftermath, flying over from several thousand feet instead of going down there in person, etc.
He has shown a propensity in making up 'facts' in order to support his agenda; the WMD trailers were made up (and he knew it) yet still went to the people with these 'facts', the weapons inspectors repeatedly told that there were no WMD facilities, he ignored it; and finally, he insisted that Saddam and Iraq were involved in 9/11 even though there was no link before or since to prove it, and he knew it.
So to me, it's not entirely unbelievable that he would sacrifice americans in the name of getting what he wants - namely a war in Iraq and getting Saddam.
Tell me then why Osama, supposedly the key figure in the attacks, still hasn't been captured? Tell me why we would go after him only to divert our attention to Iraq without finishing Afghanistan first?
There are so many holes in the 'official' story of what's going on it's unbelievable.
Again, you are reading into it what you want to believe. Please tell me where I said BUSH DID IT! I said it wasn't unbelieveable, but that falls short of blaming him.
Oh, by the way, why don't you just put Ichiro is overrated in your signature line? I mean it must be troubling to type it up every time, then everyone can see what a clueless, mindless TWIT you are.
Nobody here has come up with a valid arguement about Jeter being over-rated. Forget Axtell's crazed assault on anything NY. The fact that Jeter is causing this kind of firestorm at this stage of his career actually lends credit to the career he has had so far. Take away his four World Series rings if you want. Thats what Yankee haters do, they disregard championships won in NY because..... well its New York. NOTHING that happens in NY can be real in the eyes of the crazed Yankee hater. NONE of you have made even a little bit of sense in trying to tear Derek Jeter down.
Also, Ichiro is most definatley OVER RATED. His prowess for getting on first base with billions of singles is hardly eye opening. What SHOULD be eye opening is the FACT that the Mariners would be the SAME team with him or without him.
<< <i> I honestly didn't realize that Brett, Yount, Molitor, and Sandberg sucked that bad. Those numbers are pathetic. I guess they were good for their era but if we start using their numbers to qualify future HOF's, there will be 30 people a year getting in. Crappy players hit 18 HR's a year these days.
Looking at those numbers, I'm absolutely convinced that Barry Bonds should be a first ballot HOFer. I hate Bonds as much as the next guy but he could put up those numbers with no steriods and a quart of vodka before each game. >>
Weren't you the CLOWN who stated just a couple of weeks ago that you have not watched baseball in a long time? What possibly could you know about anything if that is the case. This is great, another dingle berry to add his no nothing 1/2 a cent to a Sports Forum. Go back to watching BADMITTON or wherever you came from.
I'm a diehard Blue Jay fan and I'm with you. I'm still not convinced Jeter is overrated. It would be tough for me to say that the numbers that Brett, Yount, Molitor and Sandberg put up over the course of their career "sucked" either.
I guess the question I would like to see answered by the Jeter detractors (and I'm open to a logical argument), is, taking into account the numbers I provided, would they consider Yount, Molitor, Brett and Sandberg overrated as well?
The argument against Jeter on here seems to be that he is overexposed and receives a disproportionate amount of headlines. Hardly, something that Jeter can control. But I can see this argument. But speaking strictly about skills, I don't see how someone who is putting up Hall of Fame numbers can be overrated?
Whoa!!!!! Many opinions on this. But I can't understand an opinion that states that Jeter is overrrated. He's just a great modern day ballplayer who is clutch for his team. Nobody ever said he is the greatest player of all time!! He ain't Cap Hanson, Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth. He is a solid contributor to a solid team. If he continues his level of performance and contribution for another five years, he will be a HOF candidate.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
I just dont understand the arguement that Jeter only has "X" number of RBIs....with a guy who averages 70-80 RBIs a season...lets not forget where he hits in the lineup! That is the ridiculous of the ridiculous! Same thing with the HR's. It's not his job to be trying to pull the ball out of the park...that's ARod's and Giambi's job. Jeter's job is to get on base, move runners up, and play effective defense. You can't appreciate Jeter's talent if you have never seen him play at the ballpark.
I would even say you cant appreciate Ichiro's arm if you have never seen him throw at the ballpark. And you will never appreciate the sound that comes of Pat Burrell's bat when he hits the ball...because its a sound I have never heard with any other hitter.
Fact is, Jeter isnt over rated because of what he does for his team. Numbers are only part of what a player means to his team. If Jeter hit .300 but only .080 with runners in scoring position then fine, call him over rated. But that's not the case.
How easily we forget that ARod knew full well that if he went to NY then he would be playing 3B. Guess what? He wanted to because he wanted to be a YANKEE. Smart boy.
Over rated: AL: AJ Burnett NL: Carlos Beltran
And I would like to know who Axhole thinks used explosives on the WTC's. And I think if your conspiracy theory says that the government planted explosives then you must include G.W. So...who did it Axhole?
<< <i>Please stop spinning, boy! The burden of proof is on YOU to provide concrete evidence where I said that Bush was responsible. I will save you the trouble - I never said it. >>
OK, I'll go first. You are correct, Axtell, you never came out and said that Bush was responsible. You never denied it when asked directly at least three times, you said it was "not unbelievable" that he did it while you have named not a single other possible suspect...but you never came out and said it directly. Wait, I can do better.
{ahem} LET IT BE KNOWN THROGHOUT THESE BOARDS AND INDEED THROUGHOUT ALL THE LANDS THAT AXTELL HAS NEVER REVEALED THE IDENTITY OF THE PERSON OR PERSONS WHO BLEW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS SHORTLY AFTER THEY WERE DAMAGED BY AIRCRAFT. I AM BUT A STAIN ON THE FABRIC OF THE TRUTH FOR EVER SAYING OR IMPLYING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY; I BEG THE FORGIVENESS OF ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE AND SWEAR, WITH GOD AS MY WITNESS, THAT I SHALL NEVER MISQUOTE AXTELL AGAIN!!!
There, I am now 100% spin-free.
Now, what you did say was that somebody blew up the WTC on 9/11 and that you knew of engineers who said that there was no possible way that the planes and the resulting fire knocked down the towers. So that we can both be free of spin, I think now is the time for you to finally name (a) the mass murderer who ordered the demolition of the towers, and (b) the engineers that have determined that the towers were blown up. If you happen to know HOW this was done, it would be just super if you could tell us that, too.
I know I feel better now that I have stopped spinning - you will, too, Professor. We eagerly await your answer.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
The argument against Jeter on here seems to be that he is overexposed and receives a disproportionate amount of headlines. Hardly, something that Jeter can control. But I can see this argument. But speaking strictly about skills, I don't see how someone who is putting up Hall of Fame numbers can be overrated? >>
Writer, the Yankee haters take the "media over hype" angle and run with it. They twist and spin every morsel trying to make Jeter into a below average shortstop who would not even be known to the masses if he played in a small market. It is the most ludicrous, idiotic, and FLAT OUT WRONG theory that there could be. The very fact that the Yankees of the past 10 years will produce a few Hall of Famers is enough to make them yack, and thus, we have this lunacy.
<< <i>It would be tough for me to say that the numbers that Brett, Yount, Molitor and Sandberg put up over the course of their career "sucked" either.
I guess the question I would like to see answered by the Jeter detractors (and I'm open to a logical argument), is, taking into account the numbers I provided, would they consider Yount, Molitor, Brett and Sandberg overrated as well? >>
No, I do not consider those players overrated because they never received the hype that Jeter does. I have noticed that everybody is comparing Jeter to Yount, Molitor, Brett and Sandberg. Jeter is not being compared to (on this board) to Musial, Williams, or Dimaggio. Yet, he is continually hyped as one of the best ever.
AGAIN, he is a future Hall of Famer, but is simply overhyped (by no fault of his own, I might add).
By the way, I AM NOT a Yankee hater. They are probably my second favorite team. I am just trying to look at this objectively.
Nobody has came up with a valid argument against David Wright yet.
nah, you don't over hype a Hall of Famer. Your theory that if Jeter finishes with 3,000 hits people will talk like he had 6,000 is bull$hit. THAT is the silliest reason in the world to claim that a future Hall of Famer is over rated. Jeter might get alot of press as ANYBODY does in that part of the country but do ya think New York juuuuuuust started to plaster its athletes on the front page and back page? Also, Molitor, Yount, Brett, and Sanberg are NOT some of the best players ever? Were you born yesterday? SO nobody is comparing Jeter with ohhhhhhhhhhhh the TOP 10 players and this is a point of yours? Listen, you can't come on here making these baseless claims that a future Hall of Famer is over rated and then use the fact that nobody is comparing him to not just other Hall of Famers BUT a few of the top 10 players all time. I mean you can't make this $hit up. Holy crap!
This was the WORST attempt yet. a 3 and 1/2" foot fly ball if you will. next .......
The 'overrated' segments are difficult to argue unless you know exactly where the player IS BEING RATED. If somebody calls Ichiro the best hitter in the game, then he is simply being overrated(I've actually heard that best hitter before too).
If somebody calls Derek Jeter BETTER than Willie Mays, then he is being overrated.
For the people who call him overrated, it would clairfy things if you GIVE him a rating.
Axhole will now disappear from this thread, as he has been slapped down yet again. He will reappear in the next thread spout his crapola, be handed his a$$ yet again and the whole cycle will start over and over and over again.
I did not say that Molitor, Yount, Brett, and Sandberg were some of the best players ever. I was saying that everybody here says that Jeter's STATS compare to those guys, and they are NOT the best. Yet, everybody hypes Jeter MORE than those guys. By the way, why don't you stop the bad language. It just shows a lack of vocabulary. There is no sense in getting all angry about it. It's just a discussion. I mean, if you came on here and said that Pujols was overrated or that he was not a good player, I wouldn't start cussing you out. I would say that you need some glasses or something, but I would do it camly.
About the "6,000 hits" I was exaggerating in order to make a point. I guess these things have to be explained to some people.
Nobody has came up with a valid argument against David Wright yet.
Frank with all due respect, Chris replied to that at the very beginning of this thread. As for me a (Mets fan) if you feel he is overrated then that is your opinion. I have no argument for you. I can't argue it as he has not been in the league that long and you are the only person that feels that way.
As for jeter you know seem to be back pedaling a lil.
About the "6,000 hits" I was exaggerating in order to make a point. I guess these things have to be explained to some people.
I knew it was an exxageration to make a point, albeit a silly one.
<< <i>Nobody has came up with a valid argument against David Wright yet.
Frank with all due respect, Chris replied to that at the very beginning of this thread. As for me a (Mets fan) if you feel he is overrated then that is your opinion. I have no argument for you. I can't argue it as he has not been in the league that long and you are the only person that feels that way.
<< <i>
Point taken - although, can we not all agree that in 1988, Gregg Jefferies was just a wee bit overrated, even though he had only played in a few games?
Do you take pills to be such an ass, or does it come naturally? The amount of hate and bile you spew is unreal. Why are you so angry all the time? Is it possible, just possible, more than one person shares the opinion that Jeter is overrated? I mean it's obvious a few people in this thread think he is, so perhaps there's a lot more out there that share the same viewpoint?
And as far as Ichiro being overrated, you do realize YOU are the only one who is saying so, right?
You'd think you were a yankees fan with how adamantly you were defending your boy.
18 home runs per year is a joke in this era, it's perfectly mediocre. "It's pretty good for a shortstop". What? It's still a paltry number, no matter where you play.
There's been no slapping down here, you dope. It's a bunch of people sharing their opinions on who they think is overrated. There are no facts to be had here....except refuting your RIDICULOUS claim that Ichiro is overrated. You saying he's overrated proves just how LITTLE baseball knowledge you have.
I don't take any medication. Don't need to. Unlike yourself, I am perfectly adjusted with no dependency on drugs as obviously you are. I am thinking you've gone a while with no weed, that's why you're so pissy. That or your 'lady' left you and you haven't been getting any.
Either way, lighten up. Don't get pissy because I called you out for what you truly are.
<< <i>Jeter in the end. He gets waaay too much hoopla for his 'intangibles' which is mostly conjecture and hogwash. What ends up happening is that some people recognize the B.S. in that and call him waay overrated. What ends up happening is that it actually underrates his true accomplishments. Jeter is a heckuva player, and in the end will merit Hall of Fame induction. I didn't take a long look at his accomplishments, but just did a cursory look, and by memory. >>
I like the way you wrapped up your post here, skinpinch. This just about nails the problem many non-Yankee fans have with the Jeter hysteria. It's not like we don't recognize him as a good player, but the whole "Captain Intangibles" thing is enough to drive you nuts.
So then, Jeter is:
- a hitter with average power and offensive stats that are rarely considered exceptional
- an average to below average fielder, who isn't even the best player at his position on his very own team
- a byproduct of being on the Yankee teams that won several WS in the late 90's, which would have happened with or without him
- compiling a nice resume of stats, because he has stayed healthy and in a productive lineup for 10+ years
Can't you see why his name was the first one to come to mind (with many of us) when the title to this thread is read?
Comments
Now that that's out of the way, I will just point out that, offensively, the two are about as identical in value as two player's can be. They each have an OPS+ of 121 and their runs created per 27 outs is 6.37 for Ichiro and 6.45 for Jeter. Jeter has significantly better power and gets on base slightly more often. Ichiro makes up the difference with better stolen bases, fewer GIDP, and by playing more games every year.
If I was drafting a team I would probably pick Jeter because he was signifcantly better than Ichiro last year and I don't know if Ichiro will rebound or not, and because Jeter is a year younger. But there are probably other tie-breakers just as valid as those for choosing Ichiro. It is not at all clear to me how one could consider one of these two to be overrated and the other not. Maybe coverage is different on the coasts than it is here in flyover country, but I think I hear about the same amount coverage of each of them - and none of that coverage strikes me as undeserved in either case.
{And I don't know how Axtell does it, but he has avoided my question for a fifth time with the speed of lightning. You can't seriously think that anybody didn't notice that, can you?}
Ichiro sbs's home runs rbi's runs scored bb so obp avg hits at bats
2001 56 8 69 127 30 53 381 350 242 692
2002 31 8 51 111 68 62 388 321 208 647
2003 34 13 62 111 36 69 352 312 212 679
2004 36 8 60 101 49 63 414 372 262 704
2005 33 15 68 111 48 66 350 303 206 679
2006 6 1 5 13 7 9 271 177 11 62
pierre sb's home runs rbi's runs scored bb so obp avg hits at bats
2001 46 2 55 108 41 29 378 327 202 617
2002 47 1 35 90 31 52 332 287 170 592
2003 65 1 41 100 55 35 361 320 204 668
2004 45 3 49 100 45 35 374 326 221 678
2005 57 2 47 96 41 45 326 276 181 656
2006 6 0 2 9 2 5 268 241 13 54
PRETTY EVEN PLAYERS.. ICHIRO SCORES MORE PIERRE STEALS MORE.. BAT AVG IS ABOUT THE SAME.. THIS COULD BE A GREAT ARGUMENT.
PIERRE HAS A RING SO I GIVE HIM THE NOD! ANYONE ELSE?
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
OPS+ paints a pretty clear picture: Ichiro is 21% better than an average hitter, Pierre is 13% worse. They're not even close.
Now we are comparing Jeter with all-time greats like Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken? I hate this phrase - but this thread has now officially jumped the shark. Jeter is nowhere near the same caliber of fielder that Ozzie Smith was (few are, in fairness) and Ripken has much stronger numbers offensively, along with his legendary durability. Jeter's performance has declined every year since 1999.
I saved this ESPN.com article from 2001 about the myth of Jeter - (I am sure there are many more recent articles out there as well)
The day we answer the burning question, "So how much is Derek Jeter worth, anyway?"
In recent years, and especially in recent days, it's been the fashion to sing the praises of The Magnificent Derek Jeter. The Greatest Yankee Shortstop, even better than the Scooter. Maybe as good as Nomar Garciaparra. Maybe even as good as Alex Rodriguez, the $252 Million Man.
Jeter's better than Rizzuto. But is he close to being as good as Garciaparra and/or Rodriguez? Here are some key numbers for each of them:
Alex Nomar Jeter
OPS 935 955 862
Garciaparra has certainly benefited from playing half his games in a good hitter's park, but the advantage certainly can't account for a 93-point difference in OPS. Same story with Rodriguez, who's actually spent the last season-and-a-half playing in a great pitcher's park (and before that, the Kingdome wasn't nearly as hitter-friendly as widely thought). As for the "little things," Jeter is a good baserunner, but no better than Rodriguez. And of course he's not often asked to bunt.
As hitters, Rodriguez and Garciaparra both earn A's, and Jeter gets a B+. Nothing to be ashamed of -- there are plenty of Hall of Fame shortstops who didn't hit like Jeter does -- but he certainly doesn't compare favorably with his slugging peers.
Well, if it's not his hitting, it must be his fielding, right? People rave about Jeter's defense, with Tim McCarver leading the wild-eyed hyperbole parade. However, there is virtually no objective evidence to support the notion that Jeter is a Gold Glove-quality shortstop.
The simplest fielding metric is called Range Factor: Putouts plus Assists, per nine innings.
And Jeter's Range Factor is, in a word, execrable. It's execrable every year. Here's where he ranked, in each of the last five seasons, among major league shortstops who started at least 100 games:
1996 20 of 24
1997 16 of 24
1998 23 of 25
1999 21 of 21
2000 23 of 23
Those numbers, elegant in their simple consistency, speak for themselves.
But of course, Range Factor is subject to all sorts of outside influences. Heinous things like pitching staffs and infield surfaces and gosh knows what else. There's a way to account for those outside influences, though. We can compare Jeter to the other Yankees who played shortstop in the same seasons that he did. Unfortunately for the purposes of this little argument, Jeter has been exceptionally durable, but the table below lists Jeter's Range Factor, along with the composite Range Factor of the other Yankee shortstops of the last five seasons.
Jeter "Others"
Innings 6767 461
Range 4.27 4.32
Now, this certainly isn't conclusive. But if Jeter were truly a superior defensive shortstop, wouldn't you expect him to make more plays per nine innings, rather than slightly fewer?
As I said, Range Factor is subject to various outside influences. Fortunately, Clay Davenport (one of our colleagues at Baseball Prospectus) goes to great pains to adjust for those influences. Davenport's method rates Jeter as 23 runs worse than the average American League shortstop (given the same playing time). That was the worst in the majors.
It was also the worst showing of Jeter's career, but then he's never done well by this measure. In 1999 he was negative-12; in '98, negative-3.
And you know, it's not just Davenport. Fielding statistics are not, despite what you might have heard from your favorite Luddite, meaningless. They can be quite meaningful in the hands of bright people. And as it happens, any number of bright people -- Bill James, Tom Tippett, etc. -- have designed their own methods for evaluating defensive statistics, and I believe that they all reach the same conclusion: Derek Jeter is, at best, an adequate defensive shortstop. He simply doesn't make many plays, and that's true even if you adjust for the left-handedness (or not) of the Yankee pitchers, and it's true even if you also adjust for the tendency of the Yankee pitchers to allow ground balls (or not).
Is Jeter the worst defensive shortstop in the major leagues? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. There is some evidence to suggest that he is, but I'm sure there's evidence to suggest that he isn't, too. My point is that there's no evidence to suggest that he's an outstanding defensive shortstop, or even a good one.
Wait, that's not precisely true. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence in Jeter's favor. McCarver thinks he's great, and so do a lot of other people. But you know, even Tim McCarver doesn't know everything. McCarver sees that Jeter is adept at snagging pops in short left field, and McCarver sees that Jeter does, indeed, boast a powerful arm. But other observers have seen that Jeter doesn't get a good jump on grounders -- the single most important skill for any middle infielder -- and others have cast doubt on his footwork, especially when he fields balls up the middle.
I simply don't believe that Jeter is a good fielder; nevertheless, the notion that he is a good fielder will likely endure as one of the great baseball myths of our time.
After reading all this, somebody out there will still be arguing, "Yeah, but Jeter's a winner. How many World Series have those other guys won?"
The answer, of course, is that they haven't won any. Zero, compared to Jeter's four.
Vlad Guerrero hasn't played for a World Series winner yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Paul O'Neill? Jeff Bagwell doesn't have a ring yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Tino Martinez? Randy Johnson hasn't reached the Promised Land yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Andy Pettitte?
Of course it doesn't. It's a silly, circular argument. Derek Jeter is great because the Yankees win. The Yankees win because Derek Jeter is great. Round and round we go, and where the specious logic stops, nobody knows.
So what is Jeter worth? If you're the Yankees, he's worth whatever it costs to keep him. Because you've got bottomless pockets, and because Derek Jeter is a very good baseball player.
Those are good reasons. But let's not jump to the ill-founded conclusion that Jeter is in the same class as Rodriguez and Garciaparra. Because he's not.
I have softened on this issue a bit since first writing the column, because Jeter has proved himself to be significantly more durable than Garciaparra.
<< <i>
And so what if they are singles, he's a LEADOFF hitter, he's supposed to get on base ya dope, not hit home runs. When you learn what each position in the lineup is supposed to do, come back and talk to me. As it is, your arguements, as usual, are all WET. >>
And Axtell makes himself look the fool that he is again. Derek Jeter has hit LEADOFF most of his career Ax ya fu$king idiot
OK, here are Jeters lifetime numbers.
At bats 6221
Hits 1954
2B 313
3B 48
HR 171
AVG .314
RUNS 1171
RBI 776
SB 217
MORE than comparable to the HOF'ers eluded to in this thread. The thought that Derek Jeter is over rated in some way stems from jealousy and hatred. Nothing more and nothing less.
CT, that article you saved is comical. And it is no suprise you saved it as you tend to soak up anything anti Yankee
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>The following are the 162-game average seasons for these players:
Name AVG HR RBI OBP SLUG
Brett .305 19 95 .369 .487
Yount .285 14 80 .342 .430
Molitor .306 14 79 .369 .448
Sandberg .285 21 79 .344 .452
Jeter .314 18 81 .386 .461
>>
I honestly didn't realize that Brett, Yount, Molitor, and Sandberg sucked that bad. Those numbers are pathetic. I guess they were good for their era but if we start using their numbers to qualify future HOF's, there will be 30 people a year getting in. Crappy players hit 18 HR's a year these days.
Looking at those numbers, I'm absolutely convinced that Barry Bonds should be a first ballot HOFer. I hate Bonds as much as the next guy but he could put up those numbers with no steriods and a quart of vodka before each game.
Just trying to sound like you. I gave you a great argument I compared Jeter to Ripken and Smith. As usual you discounted whatever is said to fit your obnoxious aims.
I never said Ichiro was not a good/great player. I just feel he is OVERRATED.
SD
We are talking about SHORTSTOPS.
CT..........huh?
I suggest you go and compare Jeter and Ozzie Smith. maybe then the blinders will come off.
Smith AVERAGED 675 chances per season 14 errors 978 pct
Jeter AVERAGES 640 chances per season 16 errors 972 pct
Garciaparra........not in the same league defensively. constantly made errors in the 20's and fld pct was almost ALWAYS lower then peers. AVERAGED 100 chances LESS per season. Great hitter
AROD....Better then Jeter at SS.......Better all around, that is WHY for those that a shortsighted (AXTELL) he was moved to 3rd base.
GROUND BALLS have not changed. 35 chances per year on average is like 1 chance more per 5 games.
Steve
ICHIRO===OVERRATED
<< <i>Smith AVERAGED 675 chances per season 14 errors 978 pct
Jeter AVERAGES 640 chances per season 16 errors 972 pct
>>
Steve, I hate to interrupt a good bich-slapping of Axtell, but I can not sit by while my man Ozzie is defamed.
To get the figures above I think you took Ozzie's total chances and divided by his 19 seasons. The problem is that Ozzie played a full career while Jeter has not; Ozzie only played partial seasons his last three years in the league, plus he has a strike season of 110 games in there. Instead, take each of their total chances, divide by their total games, and multiply by 162 - total chances per complete season. It looks like this:
Ozzie: 832 total chances
Jeter: 679 total chances
That difference is almost a chance per game, not every five games, and accounts for Ozzie's range factor of 23% above the average SS and Jeter's of 1% below average (through age 31, Ozzie was 26% above average). As total players, I think comparisons between Jeter, Ripken, Smith, etc. are perfectly valid; as fielders, you have to go back to Honus Wagner to find a shortstop that is even in the same dimension as Ozzie - and Ozzie beats Wagner, too.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled backhanding.
<< <i> I did not say that Jeter wasn't a great player. He very well may get to 3000, but everybody thinks that he is on his way to 6000 hits. He may have 171 home runs, but everybody thinks he has 571
Frank you usually say intelligent things. This time though you are way off base.
All I meant by that is this - If a player is in the Hall of Fame (or a future Hall of Famer like Jeter is), you can still be overrated. Though not technically, everybody knows that there are levels in the baseball Hall of Fame. For instance, we know that Robin Yount, though deserving of the Hall of Fame, is not even on the same planet as Aaron or Ruth. All I am saying is that Jeter will get in the Hall of Fame (and probably on the first ballot), but, to me, he is not a "top tier" Hall of Famer like everybody thinks. Therefore - OVERRATED.
That's my humble opinion.
Shane
1). Ozzie is a supremely better fielder, however, not quite as much as the raw fielding numbers indicate. Ozzie played on teams where the pitching staffs were consistently at the VERY bottom in strikeouts, which meant more ground balls than the average fielder saw. That is what partly added to those incredible assist totals. I believe Jeter's era has a bit more strikouts overall, as opposed to contact outs, so that equals less chances. When scrutinized deeply, Ozzie is STILL the best defensive player ever(hence his HOF merit). Jeter is a bit below average defensive shortstop.
2). Ballpark effects! These have some problems. Not to pick on Ozzie, but Ozzie gets more credit to his stats for his tougher home ballpark, even though his style of hitting really wouldn't be affected by it as much as say George Hendrick. His OPS+ is realistically a couple of points lower than as indicated if looking at true value.
Yankee stadium is tough on RH batters, though Jeter isn't a dead pull hitter where it affects him as much as it would a Jim Rice. Jeter does pop out his share of home runs to the short porch in RF at Yankee stadium, so the home park disadvantage for RH isn't quite a disadvantage to Jeter as it would be to others. Not a major difference, but the small aspects add up a bit.
3) Ichiro. He gets the royalty treatment! Until his OB% starts to get close to Wade Boggs, then he should not be given as much credit as he routinely gets. Plus Boggs did it in a tougher era to hit in....though Boggs did take advantage of pecking away at the monster
4)Ichiro's singles. He does hit an empty .370. Not only are most of them singles, but a good amount are INFIELD singles. Why is that bad? An infield single does not have the same value as an outfield single, as it does not contain the same amount of baserunner advancement. A bullet single in the gap adavances runners much more than a tapper to SS(which may not advance ANY runners). I know Ichiro hits leadoff, but he also comes to the plate with men on base too.
5) Jeter being overrated. Comparing him to Ripken based on Ripken's career numbers isn't fair, as Ripken went through his old man years in those numbers. Also, Ripken played in a tougher era to hit in without question. Briefly looking at Ripken through age 31, I would say ripken has the edge in hitting. Remember, Jeter's OPS+ numbers take into account the ballpark effect, even though the ballpark may not hurt him as much as others. Jeter could make that ground up still though.
6) Jeter in the end. He gets waaay too much hoopla for his 'intangibles' which is mostly conjecture and hogwash. What ends up happening is that some people recognize the B.S. in that and call him waay overrated. What ends up happening is that it actually underrates his true accomplishments. Jeter is a heckuva player, and in the end will merit Hall of Fame induction. I didn't take a long look at his accomplishments, but just did a cursory look, and by memory.
AL....... Jeter/Damon
NL.......Chipper Jones
I would be curious if one of you could post a comparison of stats between Jeter and Omar Vizquel.
Now someone start a "Most Under-rated" thread.
As far as dallas goes, the only backhanding going on here are against those DOPES who think that Ichiro is overrated, and that Jeter has earned his fame. As has been mentioned repeatedly, 18 homers a year is a joke, and are not 'power' numbers.
Comparing Jeter to Ozzie is an absolute joke, and comparing him to Ripken is even more ridiculous.
softy will cry for days, but if Jeter played in pittsburgh or some other small market team, he'd be a NOBODY. As it is, he gets tons of (unwarranted) acclaim for his accomplishments.
Now that we've all established Jeter as the most overrated player in the AL, is there anyone more deserving of this 'award' in the NL as Beltran? He has 1/2 of a good season, signs a huge payday, everyone is on board with him saying he's the next great deal, and he continually stinks up the joint.
<< <i>I can't believe I read all of this.
AL....... Jeter/Damon
NL.......Chipper Jones
I would be curious if one of you could post a comparison of stats between Jeter and Omar Vizquel.
Now someone start a "Most Under-rated" thread. >>
Jeter and Vizquel would be an extremely lopsided comparison, at least as far as offense goes, and Vizquel isn't nearly that much better at fielding to make up for it. Vizquel and Pierre are pretty comparable, for what that's worth.
<< <i>Comparing Jeter to Ozzie is an absolute joke, and comparing him to Ripken is even more ridiculous. >>
Comparing Jeter to Ozzie is comparing apples and oranges IMO; any attempt to do so - even including by Bill James and others who devote their lives to such comparisons - ultimately includes too much guesswork to prove anything. Ozzie was a much better fielder, Jeter is a much better hitter; they each fit almost perfectly into the roles they were expected to play.
But if we can't compare Jeter to Ripken, then who exactly can we compare to anybody? Right now, Jeter has a fair lead on Ripken as an offensive player, but Ripken was barely average once he passed thirty so that drags him down quite a bit. If Jeter holds steady for several more years, or just declines less abruptly than Ripken did, he will retire as a better player than Ripken was. If not, then he won't; but comparing the two is hardly ridiculous.
And may I assume that you have realized how ridiculous you look everytime you crawl out from your rock, spout some nonsense about Jeter not moving to third base, and then crawl back under when you are asked about it? If not, you are the only one. Better you should explain some more about how Bush blew up the WTC on 9/11; once you find those engineers to back you up, of course.
<< <i>And may I assume that you have realized how ridiculous you look everytime you crawl out from your rock, spout some nonsense about Jeter not moving to third base, and then crawl back under when you are asked about it? If not, you are the only one. Better you should explain some more about how Bush blew up the WTC on 9/11; once you find those engineers to back you up, of course. >>
First, please point out where I said BUSH was responsible for blowing up the WTC? You are making leaps in my posts that I did not. I know this alone is what has you so hot under the collar, as Bush is your boy and all, but I never said NOR implied Bush was responsible.
Now that you've been backhanded yet again, please, please find where I said Bush was responsible. Otherwise, shut your g'damned mouth.
<< <i>
<< <i>And may I assume that you have realized how ridiculous you look everytime you crawl out from your rock, spout some nonsense about Jeter not moving to third base, and then crawl back under when you are asked about it? If not, you are the only one. Better you should explain some more about how Bush blew up the WTC on 9/11; once you find those engineers to back you up, of course. >>
First, please point out where I said BUSH was responsible for blowing up the WTC? You are making leaps in my posts that I did not. I know this alone is what has you so hot under the collar, as Bush is your boy and all, but I never said NOR implied Bush was responsible.
Now that you've been backhanded yet again, please, please find where I said Bush was responsible. Otherwise, shut your g'damned mouth. >>
a lot of this would be put to rest if you would take a minute and explain why you think Jeter should have been moved to 3rd instead of A-Rod.
<< <i>
a lot of this would be put to rest if you would take a minute and explain why you think Jeter should have been moved to 3rd instead of A-Rod. >>
Arod was the best shortstop in the league, not only offensively, but defensively as well. He was superior in every way to Jeter. Instead of being the 'captain' and offering to move to third base with Arod (the better shortstop) coming in, it was assumed he would get to keep his natural position.
I would have had a ton more respect for Jeter if he would have at least offered to try it out, see how it felt, see if he could do it, but nope, he was too selfish to learn a new position. Hardly captain worthy, and yet another notch in the 'overrated' column.
Dallas, yes i did exactly like you stated. I divided by 19. when jeter gets into 19 seasons then perhaps the averages would differ.
I certaintly was not defaming Smith as i used him as he is the standard by which all SS should be measured. To me a season is a season is a season. That is what makes an avearge an average. (to me of course) perhaps not to you.
I was averaging to date for jeter.
Everyone likes to throw numbers around. I threw a few around too.
Axtell you keep saying 18 homers is a joke. He is a SHORTSTOP, 18 dingers is pretty good for a Shortstop/leadoff man.
How do you (Axtell) know that he did not discuss the issue with Torre? I mean you base your entire diatribe on the fact that he did not offer? how the hell do you know what he did or did not do?
You constantly change what you say on a whim. I stand by my comparisons. I was not to far off as some here agreed with the ripken assesment while to you it was "the most ridicoulous thing I ever have said" bla bla bla. I suggest you sit back and just listen for a spell. perhaps you will learn a few things.
Your boy Ichiro is OVERRATED IMO.
Steve
<< <i>Now that you've been backhanded yet again, please, please find where I said Bush was responsible. Otherwise, shut your g'damned mouth. >>
For the benefit of those who are not as fascinated as I am with the sheer magnitude of Axtell's stupidity and the associated 9/11 rantings, I mentioned in a post quite a while ago that Axtell never actually said who was responsible. Several other people who posted made the assumption that Axtell meant Bush, I noted that these people had made that assumption and that Axtell had never corrected them, and I eventually came to the same conclusion myself since Axtell's silence seemed to imply agreement.
I may have been mistaken, although Axtell is still playing coy by not saying that Bush WASN'T responsible, so I may still be right. So, Professor Axtell, let's clear this up once and for all: who is it that you are claiming gave the order to blow up the WTC on 9/11, directly causing the deaths of hundreds of people? And I know this isn't the right forum for this, but you cried like a little schoolgirl the last time I copied one of your posts to a different forum.
{And please stop saying you are backhanding me; I get this mental image of you breaking a nail and I laugh so hard I can hardly breathe}
<< <i>
For the benefit of those who are not as fascinated as I am with the sheer magnitude of Axtell's stupidity and the associated 9/11 rantings, I mentioned in a post quite a while ago that Axtell never actually said who was responsible. Several other people who posted made the assumption that Axtell meant Bush, I noted that these people had made that assumption and that Axtell had never corrected them, and I eventually came to the same conclusion myself since Axtell's silence seemed to imply agreement.
>>
So through implications you assumed something that I never said, right? I am still waiting for you to say where I posted Bush was responsible.
<< <i>I may have been mistaken, although Axtell is still playing coy by not saying that Bush WASN'T responsible, so I may still be right. So, Professor Axtell, let's clear this up once and for all: who is it that you are claiming gave the order to blow up the WTC on 9/11, directly causing the deaths of hundreds of people? And I know this isn't the right forum for this, but you cried like a little schoolgirl the last time I copied one of your posts to a different forum.
>>
Please stop spinning, boy! The burden of proof is on YOU to provide concrete evidence where I said that Bush was responsible. I will save you the trouble - I never said it. Now that you've been beaten to a pulp again, are you ready to cry 'uncle'?
And you laugh breathlessly from a mental image? Wow you sure do have a simple mind, don't ya boy?
From Axtells mouth.........
Why would Bush take over the saudi oil fields that are (a) drying up and (b) held by long time family friends?
Why is it so inconceivable to think that Bush would sacrifice thousands of americans to go after what he wants? You think he honestly cares one bit about the people he was 'elected' to govern?
He has shown total disregard to human lives both here and abroad. His lack of punctuality in dealing with Katrina's aftermath, flying over from several thousand feet instead of going down there in person, etc.
He has shown a propensity in making up 'facts' in order to support his agenda; the WMD trailers were made up (and he knew it) yet still went to the people with these 'facts', the weapons inspectors repeatedly told that there were no WMD facilities, he ignored it; and finally, he insisted that Saddam and Iraq were involved in 9/11 even though there was no link before or since to prove it, and he knew it.
So to me, it's not entirely unbelievable that he would sacrifice americans in the name of getting what he wants - namely a war in Iraq and getting Saddam.
Tell me then why Osama, supposedly the key figure in the attacks, still hasn't been captured? Tell me why we would go after him only to divert our attention to Iraq without finishing Afghanistan first?
There are so many holes in the 'official' story of what's going on it's unbelievable.
Steve
From the thread "gone"
Seve
Ichiro ..........Overrated
Again, you are reading into it what you want to believe. Please tell me where I said BUSH DID IT! I said it wasn't unbelieveable, but that falls short of blaming him.
Oh, by the way, why don't you just put Ichiro is overrated in your signature line? I mean it must be troubling to type it up every time, then everyone can see what a clueless, mindless TWIT you are.
<< <i> I said it wasn't unbelieveable >>
thats because of your schizophrenic disorder..
<< <i>
<< <i> I said it wasn't unbelieveable >>
thats because of your schizophrenic disorder.. >>
No no no ya dope, I am not schizo, perhaps a slight case of OCD, but hardly schizophrenia.
No need to put it in a sig line.
Steve
Also, Ichiro is most definatley OVER RATED. His prowess for getting on first base with billions of singles is hardly eye opening. What SHOULD be eye opening is the FACT that the Mariners would be the SAME team with him or without him.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
I honestly didn't realize that Brett, Yount, Molitor, and Sandberg sucked that bad. Those numbers are pathetic. I guess they were good for their era but if we start using their numbers to qualify future HOF's, there will be 30 people a year getting in. Crappy players hit 18 HR's a year these days.
Looking at those numbers, I'm absolutely convinced that Barry Bonds should be a first ballot HOFer. I hate Bonds as much as the next guy but he could put up those numbers with no steriods and a quart of vodka before each game. >>
Weren't you the CLOWN who stated just a couple of weeks ago that you have not watched baseball in a long time? What possibly could you know about anything if that is the case. This is great, another dingle berry to add his no nothing 1/2 a cent to a Sports Forum. Go back to watching BADMITTON or wherever you came from.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I'm a diehard Blue Jay fan and I'm with you. I'm still not convinced Jeter is overrated. It would be tough for me to say that the numbers that Brett, Yount, Molitor and Sandberg put up over the course of their career "sucked" either.
I guess the question I would like to see answered by the Jeter detractors (and I'm open to a logical argument), is, taking into account the numbers I provided, would they consider Yount, Molitor, Brett and Sandberg overrated as well?
The argument against Jeter on here seems to be that he is overexposed and receives a disproportionate amount of headlines. Hardly, something that Jeter can control. But I can see this argument. But speaking strictly about skills, I don't see how someone who is putting up Hall of Fame numbers can be overrated?
I would even say you cant appreciate Ichiro's arm if you have never seen him throw at the ballpark. And you will never appreciate the sound that comes of Pat Burrell's bat when he hits the ball...because its a sound I have never heard with any other hitter.
Fact is, Jeter isnt over rated because of what he does for his team. Numbers are only part of what a player means to his team. If Jeter hit .300 but only .080 with runners in scoring position then fine, call him over rated. But that's not the case.
How easily we forget that ARod knew full well that if he went to NY then he would be playing 3B. Guess what? He wanted to because he wanted to be a YANKEE. Smart boy.
Over rated:
AL: AJ Burnett
NL: Carlos Beltran
And I would like to know who Axhole thinks used explosives on the WTC's. And I think if your conspiracy theory says that the government planted explosives then you must include G.W. So...who did it Axhole?
<< <i>Please stop spinning, boy! The burden of proof is on YOU to provide concrete evidence where I said that Bush was responsible. I will save you the trouble - I never said it. >>
OK, I'll go first. You are correct, Axtell, you never came out and said that Bush was responsible. You never denied it when asked directly at least three times, you said it was "not unbelievable" that he did it while you have named not a single other possible suspect...but you never came out and said it directly. Wait, I can do better.
{ahem} LET IT BE KNOWN THROGHOUT THESE BOARDS AND INDEED THROUGHOUT ALL THE LANDS THAT AXTELL HAS NEVER REVEALED THE IDENTITY OF THE PERSON OR PERSONS WHO BLEW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS SHORTLY AFTER THEY WERE DAMAGED BY AIRCRAFT. I AM BUT A STAIN ON THE FABRIC OF THE TRUTH FOR EVER SAYING OR IMPLYING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY; I BEG THE FORGIVENESS OF ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE AND SWEAR, WITH GOD AS MY WITNESS, THAT I SHALL NEVER MISQUOTE AXTELL AGAIN!!!
There, I am now 100% spin-free.
Now, what you did say was that somebody blew up the WTC on 9/11 and that you knew of engineers who said that there was no possible way that the planes and the resulting fire knocked down the towers. So that we can both be free of spin, I think now is the time for you to finally name (a) the mass murderer who ordered the demolition of the towers, and (b) the engineers that have determined that the towers were blown up. If you happen to know HOW this was done, it would be just super if you could tell us that, too.
I know I feel better now that I have stopped spinning - you will, too, Professor. We eagerly await your answer.
<< <i>
The argument against Jeter on here seems to be that he is overexposed and receives a disproportionate amount of headlines. Hardly, something that Jeter can control. But I can see this argument. But speaking strictly about skills, I don't see how someone who is putting up Hall of Fame numbers can be overrated? >>
Writer, the Yankee haters take the "media over hype" angle and run with it. They twist and spin every morsel trying to make Jeter into a below average shortstop who would not even be known to the masses if he played in a small market. It is the most ludicrous, idiotic, and FLAT OUT WRONG theory that there could be. The very fact that the Yankees of the past 10 years will produce a few Hall of Famers is enough to make them yack, and thus, we have this lunacy.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>It would be tough for me to say that the numbers that Brett, Yount, Molitor and Sandberg put up over the course of their career "sucked" either.
I guess the question I would like to see answered by the Jeter detractors (and I'm open to a logical argument), is, taking into account the numbers I provided, would they consider Yount, Molitor, Brett and Sandberg overrated as well?
>>
No, I do not consider those players overrated because they never received the hype that Jeter does. I have noticed that everybody is comparing Jeter to Yount, Molitor, Brett and Sandberg. Jeter is not being compared to (on this board) to Musial, Williams, or Dimaggio. Yet, he is continually hyped as one of the best ever.
AGAIN, he is a future Hall of Famer, but is simply overhyped (by no fault of his own, I might add).
By the way, I AM NOT a Yankee hater. They are probably my second favorite team. I am just trying to look at this objectively.
Nobody has came up with a valid argument against David Wright yet.
Shane
I mean you can't make this $hit up. Holy crap!
This was the WORST attempt yet. a 3 and 1/2" foot fly ball if you will. next .......
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
If somebody calls Derek Jeter BETTER than Willie Mays, then he is being overrated.
For the people who call him overrated, it would clairfy things if you GIVE him a rating.
Axhole will now disappear from this thread, as he has been slapped down yet again. He will reappear in the next thread spout his crapola, be handed his a$$ yet again and the whole cycle will start over and over and over again.
or.............maybe he will just shut up?
Oh btw did I mention that ICHIRO is OVERRATED?
Steve
I did not say that Molitor, Yount, Brett, and Sandberg were some of the best players ever. I was saying that everybody here says that Jeter's STATS compare to those guys, and they are NOT the best. Yet, everybody hypes Jeter MORE than those guys. By the way, why don't you stop the bad language. It just shows a lack of vocabulary. There is no sense in getting all angry about it. It's just a discussion. I mean, if you came on here and said that Pujols was overrated or that he was not a good player, I wouldn't start cussing you out. I would say that you need some glasses or something, but I would do it camly.
About the "6,000 hits" I was exaggerating in order to make a point. I guess these things have to be explained to some people.
Shane
Frank with all due respect, Chris replied to that at the very beginning of this thread. As for me a (Mets fan) if you feel he is overrated then that is your opinion. I have no argument for you. I can't argue it as he has not been in the league that long and you are the only person that feels that way.
As for jeter you know seem to be back pedaling a lil.
About the "6,000 hits" I was exaggerating in order to make a point. I guess these things have to be explained to some people.
I knew it was an exxageration to make a point, albeit a silly one.
Steve
<< <i>Nobody has came up with a valid argument against David Wright yet.
Frank with all due respect, Chris replied to that at the very beginning of this thread. As for me a (Mets fan) if you feel he is overrated then that is your opinion. I have no argument for you. I can't argue it as he has not been in the league that long and you are the only person that feels that way.
<< <i>
Point taken - although, can we not all agree that in 1988, Gregg Jefferies was just a wee bit overrated, even though he had only played in a few games?
(I promise, I'm not trying to pick on your Mets!
Shane
Do you take pills to be such an ass, or does it come naturally? The amount of hate and bile you spew is unreal. Why are you so angry all the time? Is it possible, just possible, more than one person shares the opinion that Jeter is overrated? I mean it's obvious a few people in this thread think he is, so perhaps there's a lot more out there that share the same viewpoint?
And as far as Ichiro being overrated, you do realize YOU are the only one who is saying so, right?
You'd think you were a yankees fan with how adamantly you were defending your boy.
18 home runs per year is a joke in this era, it's perfectly mediocre. "It's pretty good for a shortstop". What? It's still a paltry number, no matter where you play.
There's been no slapping down here, you dope. It's a bunch of people sharing their opinions on who they think is overrated. There are no facts to be had here....except refuting your RIDICULOUS claim that Ichiro is overrated. You saying he's overrated proves just how LITTLE baseball knowledge you have.
<< <i>WP-
Do you take pills to be such an ass, or does it come naturally? >>
did you take your schizo pill last night?
I don't take any medication. Don't need to. Unlike yourself, I am perfectly adjusted with no dependency on drugs as obviously you are. I am thinking you've gone a while with no weed, that's why you're so pissy. That or your 'lady' left you and you haven't been getting any.
Either way, lighten up. Don't get pissy because I called you out for what you truly are.
Ichiro is in no way, shape, or form Over-rated.
I'm waiting on one of you to stop the bickering and start a thread on the under rated players............so you can bicker there!
<< <i>Jeter in the end. He gets waaay too much hoopla for his 'intangibles' which is mostly conjecture and hogwash. What ends up happening is that some people recognize the B.S. in that and call him waay overrated. What ends up happening is that it actually underrates his true accomplishments. Jeter is a heckuva player, and in the end will merit Hall of Fame induction. I didn't take a long look at his accomplishments, but just did a cursory look, and by memory. >>
I like the way you wrapped up your post here, skinpinch. This just about nails the problem many non-Yankee fans have with the Jeter hysteria. It's not like we don't recognize him as a good player, but the whole "Captain Intangibles" thing is enough to drive you nuts.
So then, Jeter is:
- a hitter with average power and offensive stats that are rarely considered exceptional
- an average to below average fielder, who isn't even the best player at his position on his very own team
- a byproduct of being on the Yankee teams that won several WS in the late 90's, which would have happened with or without him
- compiling a nice resume of stats, because he has stayed healthy and in a productive lineup for 10+ years
Can't you see why his name was the first one to come to mind (with many of us) when the title to this thread is read?