This topic is evidently as unimportant to PCGS as it is TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon I give you the right to ignore this thread in the future. Now give me the right to express my opinion for the way the business strike coins have been cast out of the UNCIRCULATED set. I'll give up the fight when this error is corrected, or I start to receive SF coins in change from my local stores.
<< <i>This topic is evidently as unimportant to PCGS as it is TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon I give you the right to ignore this thread in the future. Now give me the right to express my opinion for the way the business strike coins have been cast out of the UNCIRCULATED set. I'll give up the fight when this error is corrected, or I start to receive SF coins in change from my local stores.
BS coins have not been cast out! You can put in either SF or BS coins!
Am I not correct!? >>
Jon, Dan is basically saying that people who are competing with others in the #'s game would rather put a MS69FB/SF in their sets instead of a MS67FB/BS. Its easy to make a Satin Finish then a Real True Business Strike.
Lets say the mint puts out the SF coins for another 10 years. How do you think the circulation strike coins will fare? Not very well I would think, because of the pressure some feel to climb the registry ladder. And, the longer this goes on, the less likely PCGS is to make it right. Circulation strike coins are exactly that, coins you use in everyday commerce. Not proof, not SMS, not special finish coins as the SF's are. BOTTOM LINE, right is right, and wrong is stupid.
Dan50 BS coins belong in a circ set I can't put a 65-67 or 98 SMS coin in my BS set so why a double standard, Check my link to my Kennedys set ---- no point chasing here.
Long live this thread or at least till PCGS figures it out.
Dan
U S Navy Retired 22 years - ENC(SW) Ret. - Travling Nuclear Maintanence Contractor - Working Indian Point Nuclear plant Buchanan New York
Spirited discussion of Business Strike vs Satin Finish coins. In my opinion the satin finish coins are not strong enough to stand on their own yet SF cannot be abandoned to their own demise since the PCGS either or policy in the registry has enticed the average modern coin collector to invest in SF coins. A perplexing situation. At a minimum PCGS should keep a correct pop report to properly segregate SF vs BS when obvious 350 +/- classification errors are found in the 2005 quarters and documented for PCGS. I wonder what would happen if the US Mint switched back to regular production mode non SF for the mint sets or if the mint just made one of each coin in SF mode and dropped the mint-mark? Not hard to imagine only one coin of each without a mint mark when there are new pennies, nickels?, dollars, quarters of such quantity from the mint all coming together at once. The 65-67 SMS are without a mint mark for example. Curious times but stay with the business strikes too since they are very valuable and sell privately for what they are worth. Business strike coins are for the elite of modern coin collecting due to the effort it takes to find them and relative scarcity compared to satin finish mint sets. Fortunately for the average collector the top SHQ set of SF69 in 2006 was not terribly expensive and no SF70 coins made. I do like the sain finish quarters too, just wish they hard started that in 1999 so an entire set could be made.... in the mean-time I seriously collect both the business srikes and the SF quarters in top condition and recognize the pedigree for those Seller's kind enough to offer me coins I need for my collection. dr
Doug - A year plus later now - not terribly relevant whether PCGS did the right or wrong thing BACK THEN - at least to me right now. Now, is now. The remaining erroneous pops need fixing as soon as possible and the state quarter variety set, which was expected to lauch the better part of a year ago needs to launch. Perhaps other things need to take place at this point as well, such as "homes" for the business strike coins in all the series (including additional registry sets formed).
But - Doug - I am still concerned about certain SF coins getting mislabeled as BS coins. A board member recently sent me a sealed mint roll of Sacs from 2005 with an obvious SF coin as the top coin in the "business strike" roll - when I opened it, the roll was nearly all BS coins. however. If this roll would have been submitted sealed to PCGS, it might be possible a SF coin would have graded non-SF and, perhaps, a top pop at that. Of course, in most cases the differences are easily determined, but, not all cases.
In any event, while I am not convinced the BS coins are only for the "elite" of modern coin collecting, they are important coins for all collectors, just as the SF coins are as well.
The thread is getting old now and it is time to relabel it: "The debate on what to do with SF and BS coins continues.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thanks for your input Mitch. There will always be surprises in the rolls but a professional PCGS grader should be able to differentiate if an amateur like me can tell the difference. No mistakes by PCGS in 2006 on the state quarters I am aware of so very pleased about that... JVD spotted and Ron immediately fixed a minor pop report classification issue that arose... thanks JVD & PCGS! I have never found a SF coin in the business strike state quarters I look thru but I have found dozens of blank planchets, planchet clips, and even a copper sided MASS-D SHQ I kept in my errors box. I stepped up the pace in the hunt for the MT business strikes since I lived there for around 10 years. Some glorious MT-D mints have been found from early strike bank boxes fresh from MT and some proof like. A lot of fun to find and the local banks are supportive to get the new coins for their customers so easy to cash in. I am not intending to criticise anyone but want to keep this discussion alive until we get the corrections to the pop report and to a lesser degree get the all inclusive registry. Not really sure what an all inclusive registry would be now with so many varieties of the MN DDR. Some cool MN DDR and yes I am assembling a set of those PCGS graded when available and these are primarily business strike coins in the MN DDR series. Glad to hear Mitch is still out there paying attention to the thread and hope he will use his influence to help get that all inclusive registry set established to show off our business strike treasures. A set of 2006 business strike SHQ coins in PCGS MS67 is an average of $35 - $175 (ND-P rarity) each say $650 for a set in super gem MS67 so the term elite is a bit strong, still affordable for the serious modern quarter collector. dr
I agree. Good to see Mitch chime in again. Very appropriate "revised" thread title. It will be fun to follow this thread and even more fun to watch those who are furious with it.
I will climb on Doug's band wagon. PCGS hires a staff of Professional graders and if those graders can not tell the difference in satin and business coins. Then I have to ask how do they tell the difference in a MS67 and a MS68. IMO we pay them to be able to make those decisions when we buy PCGS certified coins. And yes when the coins are certified it would be nice to have a set to put them in. Rant over for today.
<< <i>If this roll would have been submitted sealed to PCGS, it might be possible a SF coin would have graded non-SF and, perhaps, a top pop at that. Of course, in most cases the differences are easily determined, but, not all cases. >>
Mitch the 65-67 rolls were found to sometimes contain SMS coins. And PCGS has been able to handle the situation. If a coin looked a little to good to be business strike, they simply sent it home as a SMS coin. This made it tough to get a high grade coin holdered as business strike, but most of us understood why it was being done. I see no reason this problem isn't treated in the same way. Speaking for myself only, I can't, for the life of me, understand how putting SF coins into UNCIRCULATED sets is going to protect anyone from from mislabled coins.
Changing the title doesn't change how stupid this whole topic is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dan: I believe PCGS' success with 1965-67 coinage of late has been linked to their decision to default all MS coins into the SMS designation automatically. If PCGS were to also do this with 2005-date coinage, I agree that the chances for mistakes may go way down.
Amplifying a previous comment of mine - in the past year or two, PCGS has greatly expanded the registry. Last I looked at my registry personal page, there were something like 200+ new registry sets my current listed coins could be entered into if I desired. So, at this point, why not have the state quarter registry sets EVERY way the collectors desire - i.e. no SF coins in one set choice, an either/or in another set choice for those who desire, a variety set to include WI errors, MN errors, etc., a SF set stand alone (?) and on and on and on. Now, it is easy to please everyone (just like FBL and non-FBL Franklin sets, First strike and non-First strike sets, etc).
Just a thought now that another year has passed. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Changing the title doesn't change how stupid this whole topic is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Sounds like someone needs to get out again for a steak dinner and a movie
Doug should fly into Orange County,CA and we can buys steaks at the market and have a Texas BBQ (inviting all pertinent Registry personnel at PCGS to dinner) and we can see who shows up. Doug can have an after dinner overhead projector presentation as the movie. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Sorry I blew up but I feel better now! Thanks for the support guys, this is supposed to be fun, isn't it? Steak and beer sounds good. If you talk with Stewary Blay he will advise you to avoid handing me coins while I have an open beer, dropped his raw near perfect 1963 cameo proof lincoln in a glass of Sam Adams a few years back by accident I think... at least with the clad quarters they rinse off well. dr
Being we have a new coin series, Presidential Dollars, Presidential Dollars, Circulation Strikes (2007-present) will PCGS keep the set as a true Circulation Strike. I see they also set up the Presidential Dollars, Proof (2007-present) Will there be a Satin Finish Set??????? If Satin Finish coins are labeled Satin Finish just as a Proof coin is labeled PR this tells there is a difference from a Circulation Strike coin. SF coins are given a different PCGS coin number than a true Circulation Strike coin as well. Lets hope PCGS will start off the Presidential Dollar set with out the Either / Or and create a Presidential Dollar Satin Finish 2007-present set.
I submitted a bunch more 2005-2006 dimes and they graded all of them BS except for a gem 2005-P MS67FB/SF. This is 100% a business strike and I called them on it. They changed the last 3 with the help of Mas3387's helpful insight (Thankyou) and now this one sits for the last 8 days holding up my submission. I have no idea why it would take so long. I'm hoping that they don't process the entire submission just to look at 1 coin. This coin is worthless to me in a SF holder, and is a pop 6/0 in BS.
I seen this one one eBay, recently graded by PCGS. Is this a "wolf in sheep clothing"? Sorry for the small size of the pictures, borrowed them from the eBay listing.
Also a 2005-D half in MS68 on ebay offered by the same seller. A good way to get information about the submission that resulted in this coin is to follow the sequential order of the serial number on the PCGS coin look-up web-site and see what other coins were submitted in this batch and how they graded. The mistake in grading/holdering usually comes when PCGS assigns business strike and satin frinish designations to coins within the same batch. Curious how this 2005 P&D half batch looks in total. That is how we collectors found the 300 +/- error in the PCGS data base on the 2005 state quarters by follwoing the sequential order of the numbers assigned to the whole submission, the error was from 3 seperate and sequential batches... still not fixed by PCGS but at least the state quarter gross error is only in the data base since the coin holders themselves say satin finish on them. These halves do not say satin finsih and as business strikes are worth a small fortune so I hope for the persons sake that buy these they are business strike coins. Paul I have had that same frustrating experience with the designation and worth while to send the coin in again with a nice letter. Worth it to future generations I think to have properly designated business strike coins in the holders. dr
<< <i>Paul I have had that same frustrating experience with the designation and worth while to send the coin in again with a nice letter. Worth it to future generations I think to have properly designated business strike coins in the holders. dr >>
DR: I had a couple very nice girls named Laura & Lorraine who worked exceedingly hard to make sure that my coin (2005-P) SF was changed to a Business Strike. It has been fixed and is now on its way back.
<< <i> Somebody paid a lot of money for these two possible SF coins. OOps I just noticed who out bid me on that 67. Did you get the 68 to? >>
Sly,
I didn’t even bid on the MS68, the pictures looked to much like a “Satin Finish” for me. The MS67 example looks like it might have a chance for a true “Business Strike” and he has a three day return policy. Even the two MS68 that are currently on eBay, have the “Satin Finish” look to them. Funny thing is, I’ve been watching the Pop Reports and all of the MS68s were made within the past two weeks.
Tim
PS: On the MS67, I was bidding for someone else that couldn't make it to his computer in time (sorry didn't even notice that I was bidding against you). I made my MS67 2005D a while ago.
Tim No problem. Still no place in the registery to put them. And I think the BS top pop will in truth be a 67 and it was made back then. And like you I was looking at the return option if it was or is a MECHANICAL ERROR and hope you and your friend are lucky on it.
Well the 2007 coins are on Ebay...And it looks to me that PCGS is not going to change a darn thing. Who in Petes sake is going to be at a show soon and would be willing to confront them face to face.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
YAWN YAWN YAWN to the millionth power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Well the 2007 coins are on Ebay...And it looks to me that PCGS is not going to change a darn thing. Who in Petes sake is going to be at a show soon and would be willing to confront them face to face.
WS >>
a good confrontation will show them the error of their ways.
<< <i>YAWN YAWN YAWN to the millionth power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
I have not read the 900 plus posts and I am not planning to either. From PCGS point of view, a good controversy can be good for business. I have been a member of the registry from almost day one. There was few of us, and fewer sets when I first entered my type set in later part of 2001. One of the problems then, that appear to still exist today, was inconsistent. I would not be surprise that 5 or 6 years now, the problem may still exist. If this thread is still alive, image the number of posts by then. I can remember back in the beginning, PCGS would sometimes use the views of its members for making decisions. Does that happen anymore? At the least, I believe all sets effective with this SF issue, should be giving the option of circulating strikes only sets, or some people now call Business Strikes.
Comments
There are not enough words to express HOW MUCH I DETEST THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Somebody needs to wake up and smell the coffee!
This topic is evidently as unimportant to PCGS as it is TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon I give you the right to ignore this thread in the future.
Now give me the right to express my opinion for the way the business strike coins have been cast out of the UNCIRCULATED set.
I'll give up the fight when this error is corrected, or I start to receive SF coins in change from my local stores.
<< <i>This topic is evidently as unimportant to PCGS as it is TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon I give you the right to ignore this thread in the future.
Now give me the right to express my opinion for the way the business strike coins have been cast out of the UNCIRCULATED set.
I'll give up the fight when this error is corrected, or I start to receive SF coins in change from my local stores.
I second that Dan60!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Dan,
BS coins have not been cast out! You can put in either SF or BS coins!
Am I not correct!?
<< <i>Dan,
BS coins have not been cast out! You can put in either SF or BS coins!
Am I not correct!? >>
Jon, Dan is basically saying that people who are competing with others in the #'s game would rather put a MS69FB/SF in their sets instead of a MS67FB/BS. Its easy to make a Satin Finish then a Real True Business Strike.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Just as I suspected. It's a point thingy! I'm dissapointed!
<< <i>Just as I suspected. It's a point thingy! I'm dissapointed!
This is why I put only BS coins in my sets and not SF.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
The name is LEE!
And, the longer this goes on, the less likely PCGS is to make it right.
Circulation strike coins are exactly that, coins you use in everyday commerce. Not proof, not SMS, not special finish coins as the SF's are.
BOTTOM LINE, right is right, and wrong is stupid.
Long live this thread or at least till PCGS figures it out.
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
Death and Taxes" ~~ Ben Franklin
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/mint-sets/1945-mint-set/publishedset/21067
Knutson's 45' Set 2009 Winner
But - Doug - I am still concerned about certain SF coins getting mislabeled as BS coins. A board member recently sent me a sealed mint roll of Sacs from 2005 with an obvious SF coin as the top coin in the "business strike" roll - when I opened it, the roll was nearly all BS coins. however. If this roll would have been submitted sealed to PCGS, it might be possible a SF coin would have graded non-SF and, perhaps, a top pop at that. Of course, in most cases the differences are easily determined, but, not all cases.
In any event, while I am not convinced the BS coins are only for the "elite" of modern coin collecting, they are important coins for all collectors, just as the SF coins are as well.
The thread is getting old now and it is time to relabel it: "The debate on what to do with SF and BS coins continues.
Wondercoin
Then I have to ask how do they tell the difference in a MS67 and a MS68.
IMO we pay them to be able to make those decisions when we buy PCGS certified coins.
And yes when the coins are certified it would be nice to have a set to put them in.
Rant over for today.
<< <i>If this roll would have been submitted sealed to PCGS, it might be possible a SF coin would have graded non-SF and, perhaps, a top pop at that. Of course, in most cases the differences are easily determined, but, not all cases. >>
Mitch the 65-67 rolls were found to sometimes contain SMS coins. And PCGS has been able to handle the situation. If a coin looked a little to good to be business strike, they simply sent it home as a SMS coin. This made it tough to get a high grade coin holdered as business strike, but most of us understood why it was being done. I see no reason this problem isn't treated in the same way.
Speaking for myself only, I can't, for the life of me, understand how putting SF coins into UNCIRCULATED sets is going to protect anyone from from mislabled coins.
Changing the title doesn't change how stupid this whole topic is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amplifying a previous comment of mine - in the past year or two, PCGS has greatly expanded the registry. Last I looked at my registry personal page, there were something like 200+ new registry sets my current listed coins could be entered into if I desired. So, at this point, why not have the state quarter registry sets EVERY way the collectors desire - i.e. no SF coins in one set choice, an either/or in another set choice for those who desire, a variety set to include WI errors, MN errors, etc., a SF set stand alone (?) and on and on and on. Now, it is easy to please everyone (just like FBL and non-FBL Franklin sets, First strike and non-First strike sets, etc).
Just a thought now that another year has passed. Wondercoin
<< <i>Changing the title doesn't change how stupid this whole topic is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Sounds like someone needs to get out again for a steak dinner and a movie
link
<< <i>is this another one of those 'mechanical errors'? >>
Appears to be !!!!!!!
It just doesn't look like a 67. Could it be SF?
This entire SF/BS does make a difference.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Paul I have had that same frustrating experience with the designation and worth while to send the coin in again with a nice letter. Worth it to future generations I think to have properly designated business strike coins in the holders. dr >>
DR: I had a couple very nice girls named Laura & Lorraine who worked exceedingly hard to make sure that my coin (2005-P) SF was changed to a Business Strike. It has been fixed and is now on its way back.
PCGS is now 4/4 in fixing my error slabs.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Somebody paid a lot of money for these two possible SF coins.
OOps I just noticed who out bid me on that 67. Did you get the 68 to?
<< <i> Somebody paid a lot of money for these two possible SF coins.
OOps I just noticed who out bid me on that 67. Did you get the 68 to? >>
Sly,
I didn’t even bid on the MS68, the pictures looked to much like a “Satin Finish” for me. The MS67 example looks like it might have a chance for a true “Business Strike” and he has a three day return policy. Even the two MS68 that are currently on eBay, have the “Satin Finish” look to them. Funny thing is, I’ve been watching the Pop Reports and all of the MS68s were made within the past two weeks.
Tim
PS: On the MS67, I was bidding for someone else that couldn't make it to his computer in time (sorry didn't even notice that I was bidding against you). I made my MS67 2005D a while ago.
And I think the BS top pop will in truth be a 67 and it was made back then.
And like you I was looking at the return option if it was or is a MECHANICAL ERROR and hope you and your friend are lucky on it.
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
WS
YAWN YAWN YAWN to the millionth power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Well the 2007 coins are on Ebay...And it looks to me that PCGS is not going to change a darn thing. Who in Petes sake is going to be at a show soon and would be willing to confront them face to face.
WS >>
a good confrontation will show them the error of their ways.
<< <i>YAWN YAWN YAWN to the millionth power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
It also has more replies then the first 5 pages of this Roosie Forum!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
I had to start my own version of the Kennedy varities just so I could get both of my MS and BS coin into it.
Tim
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004