For what its worth, a letter to Ron Guth asking for an explanation as to why this issues has not been resolved using past forum quotations from Hall himself and other forum respondents was sent one week ago. I HOPE WE HEAR SOMETHING!
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
" Dare I say there is "progress" on the Registry set front. I have the ear of someone over at PCGS that has a track record of taking the ball to the hoop. "
Only 990+ posts to get someone at the source of the problem interested.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
Steve: I have been discussing these issues with someone completely "outside the source of the probem" who is interested.
And there really has been progress in some areas - remember the recent Teletrade sitaution? Ian over there was "Johnny on the spot" to pull those (10) coins from the auction and get them back into PCGS' hands for review. A couple years back, it was feared that TT would be the "dumping ground" for mislabeled BS/SF coins and many had already gone through there of questionable accuracy. Cutting those off who would intentionally pass off $50 coins as $2,500 coins is one step in the process of cleaning this up as well.
The registry, the pops and the Price Guide now need to be fixed. But, having said that, I have no concern at all with the Price Guide as it is being run by a first class hard-working guy, Jamie Hernandez, who is the first to adjust a price if he is shown strong evidence to do so. But, he will research the issues and that takes time when he is being hit with hundreds of price change requests. So, let's just agree that is the least of the problems right now.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>For what its worth, a letter to Ron Guth asking for an explanation as to why this issues has not been resolved using past forum quotations from Hall himself and other forum respondents was sent one week ago. I HOPE WE HEAR SOMETHING! >>
WS, don't be upset when you don't get a reply. Many of us have sent in the same question more than once. And to date, all that i've talked with say that they were ignored, public and private. We are talking years here, not days, weeks, months, YEARS...
A couple years back, it was feared that TT would be the "dumping ground" for mislabeled BS/SF coins Mitch, I would like to explore this comment in a little more detail.. Is this still the case? Or with some assurance the coins at TT are not mislabeled? Someone posted awhile back that SF and BS are easy to differentiate. I don’t see the simplicity. I have a 2004 Maine and the fields appear to be Satin.. I know this was prior to SF coins, so how is it possible. Is there a way to know for sure?
Currin - TT is in the auction business, not the business to assure that professionally slabbed coins are "done right". That said - when TT gets word from reasonable sources that coins in their auction are likely mechanical errors, I have seen a pattern now developing where TT takes action to protect its buyer and try to get to the "truth" about whether a consigned coin is a mechanical error, including expedited drop offs at PCGS (down the street from TT) for review of the coins. This is a good thing for all involved (other than perhaps a consignor desiring to take advantage of a PCGS mechanical error)!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I have respect for you as a dealer and a fellow collectors but I have to disagree with you on this one issue, I think you use the term “Mechanical Error” a little to loose.
If PCGS miss – labels a “Business Strike” coin as a “Satin Finish” coin or visa-versa why do you consider it a “Mechanical Error”? There is an error in what PCGS has done but it is not a “Mechanical Error”. I know of two instances that a SMS coin from the 1965-67 time period was graded as a “Business Strike” coin and PCGS did the right thing and bought the coins under their “Grade Guarantee” because the coin was a “SMS”. “Mechanical Errors” are not covered under the “Grade Guarantee” so this tells me that even PCGS doesn’t consider miss – labeled coins of this nature “Mechanical Errors”.
I could see you using the term “Mechanical Error” if PCGS put the wrong coin number on the slab, wrong denomination on the slab, or even listed the wrong date on the slab. It would be a stretch, but I might be able to buy the argument of a “Mechanical Error” if they had the right PCGS coin number on the slab but forgot to say it was “Satin Finish” or a “SMS”. But if the PCGS coin number on the slab is for a “Business Strike” coin and it shows no marking on the slab that it is anything but a “Business Strike” coin then it is PCGS’s error but not a “Mechanical Error”.
There are several 2005 half dollars currently on eBay that PCGS has graded “Business Strike” and I have been informed by follow collectors that had bought them and returned them because they are indeed “Satin Finish”. The dealer in my opinion is wrong for trying to sell them when he knows that they are “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. I sent en email several months ago to PCGS about these coins; to my knowledge PCGS has done nothing about them.
I am sorry, I like the customer service that PCGS gives, but I believe PCGS has dropped the ball on this one. No one or group is perfect, but is PCGS even trying? Why haven’t they fixed the population reports with the work that Doug and others have done? Why haven’t they been pro active trying to fix the problem coins? Why haven’t they gone after the submissions when a problem has been pointed out to them?
It seems that David Hall likes Baseball, he needs to learn the meaning of “Stepping up to the plate”.
Tim: Your points are well taken AND when PCGS sees the coin a second time and decides to leave it in a holder as BS, which it laters turns out not to be, I agree with you 100%. But, assuming a dealer or collector submits a batch of Mint sets with no question SF coins in them and they leave PCGS' building not labeled as such AND that collector or dealer intentionally and knowingly sells the coins as BS coins when he/she, in fact, knows them to be from SF Mint sets, I see a big difference between that scenario and, on the other hand, PCGS grading a coin MS65 which later turns out to be MS64 - the latter clearly not being a "mechanical error" in my mind. The former is a closer call and may need to be decided on a "case by case" basis I believe. That said - again, your position is fair and well taken. But, I am just not 100% there yet calling this BS/SF issue a "grade guarantee" issue per se. But, I guess I am comfortable with reviewing the situations case by case and in some cases determining it is not a mechanical error problem.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Let me ask the question this way.. Is the difference between BS and SF scientific (measurable) or an opinion? If it is an opinion, then I think the entire issue is senseless and invalided. It is my understanding; the underline base for grading is scientific (count the tics, spots, etc), with some subjectivity added. CAM and DAM can be measured with reflection of light. Then likewise, what is the scientific base for SF vs. BS? I submit, I have seen pre 2005 coins that have a satin finish in the fields. Why is this coin not SF (although they were not supposedly minted that year)? Can anyone tell me how you can call one coin SF and other BS without being “purely” subjective? This is a two plus year old issue that gets more baffling as time passes…
"I submit, I have seen pre 2005 coins that have a satin finish in the fields"
Currin - Me too, particularly some 2004 specimens (after all why did the Denver mint only produce -1- coin from 1999-2003 that has graded MS69 at PCGS ever, yet there are scores of MS69 coins from 2004 (quasi-SF at play here)?
On top of that there is another interesting phenomenon - since the US Mint stopped placing "business strike" coins in the Mint sets beginning with 2005, the bag and roll coins in high grade became very, very tough to locate and highly collectible -agreed.
But, what about the bag and roll coins from pre-2005? For example, as I mentioned about 900 posts ago, I have some CT(p) quarters from rolls that look "night and day" to the coins from the Mint sets in the same grade. Yet, no one seems to care about these special non-mint set 1999 coins from rolls?
But, we have covered all this ad nauseum - let's move on and get these orphan BS coins a home.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
It appears that the business strike / satin finish issue is taking a new direction with the presidents. If you look at the available registry sets, there is a regular set and a varieties set for both First Day Of Issue (FDI) and non-FDI. Mint set coins are not going to have a FDI designation, so that FDI set is guaranteed to be Business Strikes only! This means the other set will likely contain the higher grade Satin Finish Coins, hence providing a good spot for both types of coins.
<<I could see you using the term “Mechanical Error” if PCGS put the wrong coin number on the slab, wrong denomination on the slab, or even listed the wrong date on the slab. It would be a stretch, but I might be able to buy the argument of a “Mechanical Error” if they had the right PCGS coin number on the slab but forgot to say it was “Satin Finish” or a “SMS”. But if the PCGS coin number on the slab is for a “Business Strike” coin and it shows no marking on the slab that it is anything but a “Business Strike” coin then it is PCGS’s error but not a “Mechanical Error”.>>
What kind of error do they call it when they put the wrong GRADE?
<<I am sorry, I like the customer service that PCGS gives, but I believe PCGS has dropped the ball on this one. No one or group is perfect, but is PCGS even trying? Why haven’t they fixed the population reports with the work that Doug and others have done? Why haven’t they been pro active trying to fix the problem coins? Why haven’t they gone after the submissions when a problem has been pointed out to them?>>
I appreciate the efforts of all those private individuals who have tried to get these "mechanical [obvious] errors" corrected in the population reports. Wouldn't it also be great to see the corrections reflected in the Price Guide? Wouldn't it be great if these relatively simple requests could be fulfilled? Wouldn't it be great if these relatively simple requests could be acknowledged by PCGS? During this thread I've noticed the Price Guide has reported the 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" in MS69 steadily creeping up from around $75 to now $500! However, I've noticed no change to the population report for the 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" which still indicates 17 in MS69 and 1 in MS70. I've also noticed no 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" in MS69 or MS70 offered for sale here or anywhere else, so why the price jump? Does anyone really have one these 17 reported 2005-P Minnesota statehood quarters in "business strike" MS69? I'd really like to snag one while they're still affordable. Please consider my offer of $600 if you have one available to sell.
To my knowledge there are 7 MS68 MN-P business coins and there are none graded higher. To get the exact graded population of true business strike MN quarters you have to subtract out the known data base classification error from the PCGS pop report. Todays pop report 14036 2005-P 25C Minnesota MS shows MS67 x 128; MS68 x 138; MS69 x 17; & MS70 x 1. The error we found is composed of MN-P MS67 x 19; MS68 x 131, MS69 x 18, and MS70 x 1. The true pop report then is MS67 (128 -19 = 109), MS68 (138 - 131 = 7), MS69 (17-18 = -1), and MS70 (1-1= 0). Note that the MS69 pop on the PCGS report is now less than the original error discovered. This indicates that PCGS has fixed one of the bad SF69 for a MN-P in their data base like Rodger's coin #73689448 a WV-P in SF69 in this range that PCGS corrected in the data base when Roger e-mailed a picture to them. The total original error consists of 354 coins sharing the serial number range from 73689011-73689510. The error is composed of three seperate batches and two of these were bulk graded so many of the serial numbers were assigned to coins that did not reach the minimum grade and were never slabbed. I have the invoice numbers and have completely re-printed these two bulk batches. All 354 were originally given the business strike designation in the pop report data base but the holder labels actually do say satin finish on them hence you do not see these in the market fooling collectors and hence the apathy in PCGS for not correcting the data base. The exposure is that truly rare high grade business strike coins are not recognized when one relies on the pop report that is all *%$^ up. Not many of us know how rare a MN-P in MS68 is with a pop of only 7 coins. I have a full report on this error so e-mail me privately with your address and I will send you a hard copy of the report I have assimilated through the combined efforts of many of us. Doug Rall.
Excellent! Thanks again personally for ALL of your efforts, Doug.
Doug and many others here have helped me and many others here to build a "business strike" statehood quarter collection that I can hold on to and be proud of.
He and many others here recognize, acknowledge, and are simply trying to correct known discrepancies.
That's why I've increased my offer for a 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" statehood quarter in PCGS ("error-free") MS69 to $1000.
<< <i>Real good advice Doug and to amplify your point...
A state quarter collector with a super great eye just spent the last several months screening 45,000 fresh coins down to about 140 candidates! About a 100 hour screening project, not to mention the time needed to cash out 44,860 coins and any extra cost of getting the rolls in the first place (plus grading fees now). I will submit the lot tomorrow to PCGS and, frankly, unless the lot yields handfuls of MS68 coins, the "hunter" would have made more money working at McDonalds! But, to a dedicated collector it really has very little to do with the "money".
Wondercoin >>
Do you know the results yet? I am very intrested in finding out what grades come, not to mention the states. Thanks, Jason
Collector of Modern Sprockets!
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
I am sure DENNIS HANDEL, who has the number 4 state quarter set, will sell you his MN-P MS69 for far less. That way you can have a SF coin with a business strike attribute. I do not think 1000 will get you the MN-D in MS69 either, but good luck.
<< <i>Real good advice Doug and to amplify your point...
A state quarter collector with a super great eye just spent the last several months screening 45,000 fresh coins down to about 140 candidates! About a 100 hour screening project, not to mention the time needed to cash out 44,860 coins and any extra cost of getting the rolls in the first place (plus grading fees now). I will submit the lot tomorrow to PCGS and, frankly, unless the lot yields handfuls of MS68 coins, the "hunter" would have made more money working at McDonalds! But, to a dedicated collector it really has very little to do with the "money".
Wondercoin >>
Do you know the results yet? I am very intrested in finding out what grades come, not to mention the states. Thanks, Jason >>
Any Help?
Collector of Modern Sprockets!
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
Coins are not back from grading yet. I believe there were roughly forty to fifty coins nice enough to grade MS68. 90% of these are "d" mint coins.
Wondercoin
P.S. Congratulations to Doug Rall for taking over first place in the MS State quarter Registry this year. No one deserves to be there more than you Doug.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thanks Mitch and otherws that have congratulated me privately. I saw the nice interview article about Mitch in the last PCGS magazine where they also interviewed David Poole about the number 1 silver washington quarter collection. Mitch is the number one clad quarter set in the article so between the three of us David, Mitch, and Doug we have a nice washington quarter run from 1932. The statehood quarters are a marathon race and not over yet. A one coin differential over the number two set so the competition continues to be very close. The 1999 GA-D in MS68 (pop 3) put me over the top this year. One of our thread readers that wishes to remain anonymous bought the GA-D in MS68 and traded to me for cash and rare business strike MS68 SHQ. Lately I have received some 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 business strike $500 P boxes (12 different ones) from a person that was hoarding one of each but ran out of room and money. As usual some of the boxes were not worth searching beyond a 10 roll sample, a few were very nice, and most were just average where a few MS67 may be found but doubtful any 68's. Will be several more weeks of searching to complete this batch and it will be the result of approximately 56,000 coins when I have received and searched all the Idaho P I have ordered too. Have found some Idaho D that should 68 but the Idaho P mints are not that convincing in the material I have searched so far and the Idaho P $500 box release around the country has been slow and most of my P material is back ordered. If anyone comes upon a gemmy box of Idaho P quarters and wants to partner on the searching let me know. In the meantime Mitch good luck with the nice batch you have in from the 45,000 coin business strike search. I hope you make an extra one I need. I will not get as many 68's as you have estimated from your 45,000 coin search because I have mainly searched P mints except for the Idaho D. As you know the P mints are generally tougher for these years. This year my goal is to get the number 1 SHQ registry set photographed and open the set for viewing and update the pedigrees'. Would also like the business strike coins from 2005 and 2006 and 2007 photographed so they can also be viewed on line in the set registry but have not seen where this is possible. Am not that familiar with the new registry system enhancements and it may be an either or photograph situation?. The business strike coins have great character and look less homogenous than the satin finish that are designed to look very much alike with the white planchets, fresh dies, hard strikes and the satin die finish that is used. The business srike coins are cool looking with differing swirling luster patterns, different strike levels, granulated pebbled surfaces in the early strikes (totally different than the satin finish that have no granulation pebbles just smooth satin surfaces), different color tones, great die flow et. al. I like the satin finish coins too but they do look a lot alike in MS69 and as predicted the satin finish have come down to an eye straining MS69 vs MS70 to differentiate in investment grade and without any MS70 grades given out in 2006 there is little interest in continuing to search 2006 satin finish mint sets for high grade SHQ when the price for pop top MS69 for 2006 is so low. We will soon see what the 2007 satin finish mint sets bring. Such great fun for the SHQ collector.... only a few years left for the new releases. dr
I once bought and block sale of 2 PCGS mechanic error Jeffersons on Teletrade. They were selling MS68 and MS69 and anyone in the know knew they were SF. I made Teletrade send them back to PCGS to be corrected, and kept some other collector from owning a wrong coin. I also own the NGC BS MS69 Bison, pop 1 of 1. It doesn't look at all like a SF, but how can anyone tell? Mike
<< <i>Coins are not back from grading yet. I believe there were roughly forty to fifty coins nice enough to grade MS68. 90% of these are "d" mint coins. >>
Let me know how the grades go. Also why are there so many MS68's in 2002 and 2004 but not 2003?
Collector of Modern Sprockets!
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
Just noticed this question and reply from the Q & A Forum;
Monday July 02, 2007 5:34 PM
<< When will PCGS update the on-line populations for the 2007 coins, in particular, the Fist Strike 2007-W gold eagles? Is there a regular schedule for updates? >>
The on-line Pop Reports are updated early each Monday morning. Any coin that is listed in the on-line Pop Report will receive an update. If you see something that does not appear ot be correct, please let us know.
------------------------- Ron Guth President Professional Coin Grading Service www.pcgs.com
<< <i>If you see something that does not appear ot be correct, please let us know. >>
Good luck!!! It hasn't work for this issue yet. Going on two years and still waiting on the Big Fix
So, here are the final results of the very nicest (50) business strike coins out of the massive search spanning many months conducted by one of the strongest eyes out there in the state quarter series. Do I personally believe roughly one third to half the coins in here are MS68 quality - absolutely. But, the key to survival in the coin production game is to MOVE ON - you win some and lose some. We'll get them next time. Wondercoin.
1 1 11795328 39028 2006-P 25C South Dakota US MS67 2 1 11795342 39026 2006-P 25C North Dakota US MS67 3 1 11795302 39020 2006-P 25C Nevada US MS67 4 1 11795285 39024 2006-P 25C Colorado US MS67 5 1 11795254 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 6 1 11795253 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 7 1 11795252 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 8 1 11795257 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 9 1 11795261 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 10 1 11795260 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 11 1 11795259 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 12 1 11795262 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67 13 1 11795333 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 14 1 11795334 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 15 1 11795330 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 16 1 11795340 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 17 1 11795337 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 18 1 11795335 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 19 1 11795339 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67 20 1 11795269 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 21 1 11795282 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 22 1 11795283 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 23 1 11795274 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 24 1 11795276 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 25 1 11795268 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 26 1 11795277 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 27 1 11795267 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 28 1 11795266 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 29 1 11795272 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67 30 1 11795317 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 31 1 11795312 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 32 1 11795314 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 33 1 11795319 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 34 1 11795316 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 35 1 11795318 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 36 1 11795320 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 37 1 11795315 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 38 1 11795313 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 39 1 11795323 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67 40 1 11795294 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 41 1 11795289 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 42 1 11795290 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 43 1 11795291 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 44 1 11795288 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 45 1 11795298 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 46 1 11795300 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 47 1 11795301 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 48 1 11795295 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 49 1 11795299 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67 50 1 11795296 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Don't feel too bad Mitch. We handed over a very nice lot of P/D Idaho Business Strike 25c with several lock 68s in there, but we didn't make any. I believe they cracked them out and downgraded somewhere in the process. On the positive side, PCGS is living up to their tough standard.
Mas: Notice I was careful to say "one of the strongest eyes". And, to be clear, as I mentioned previously, this was a submission I did for someone (I do not want the casual reader of this thread thinking I was speaking of myself with that comment). That said - how much for your services Mas?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Don't feel too bad Mitch. We handed over a very nice lot of P/D Idaho Business Strike 25c with several lock 68s in there, but we didn't make any. I believe they cracked them out and downgraded somewhere in the process. On the positive side, PCGS is living up to their tough standard. >>
I feel your pain guys, just one MS68 on each of my last orders
Mitch, not sure if I missed your E-mail but still looking to relocate
You think you have problems with quarters getting MS68. There has not been a MS68 Dime made since 2004, FB or Not FB, "NOT ONE". Ow.. I don't count the SF coins, as Laura would say, They are just wanna be's.......
Will after consulting with a few of our members here with allot more knowledge then me I think this may be one of our mislabled coins. If not someone will get a heck of a deal but I'm not game to take a loss 05 Kennedy Half
Dan
U S Navy Retired 22 years - ENC(SW) Ret. - Travling Nuclear Maintanence Contractor - Working Indian Point Nuclear plant Buchanan New York
<< <i>The sad part is that the seller knows that 2005-D is a mislabeled coin and is trying to stick someone that is unaware. >>
If I ever get stuck in a deal like that, you can bet I'll rake the seller over the coals on the forums. I think anyone who knows of a seller, "for sure", doing that, should do the same. It would let other forum members know that said seller should be avoided. Unless of course, the buyer is willing to use any means to advance up the registry ladder. Be carefull fellow collectors, the weeds are full of snakes. And sometimes you just have to bust a cap in one's arse (so to speak) to scare off the rest. We all remember a well respected forum member who was found to be A/T-ing coins. A sad thing, but a real eye opener. You want to forget it, but to do so invites history to repeat itself.
Comments
<< <i>Lame way to get the 1000'th post. >>
Dan 50,
Consider the source, what else would you expect? But he added what he could of value… absolutely nothing.
WS
Collect one or the other or both and be happy with what you have
Only 990+ posts to get someone at the source of the problem interested.
And there really has been progress in some areas - remember the recent Teletrade sitaution? Ian over there was "Johnny on the spot" to pull those (10) coins from the auction and get them back into PCGS' hands for review. A couple years back, it was feared that TT would be the "dumping ground" for mislabeled BS/SF coins and many had already gone through there of questionable accuracy. Cutting those off who would intentionally pass off $50 coins as $2,500 coins is one step in the process of cleaning this up as well.
The registry, the pops and the Price Guide now need to be fixed. But, having said that, I have no concern at all with the Price Guide as it is being run by a first class hard-working guy, Jamie Hernandez, who is the first to adjust a price if he is shown strong evidence to do so. But, he will research the issues and that takes time when he is being hit with hundreds of price change requests. So, let's just agree that is the least of the problems right now.
Wondercoin
<< <i>For what its worth, a letter to Ron Guth asking for an explanation as to why this issues has not been resolved using past forum quotations from Hall himself and other forum respondents was sent one week ago. I HOPE WE HEAR SOMETHING! >>
WS, don't be upset when you don't get a reply. Many of us have sent in the same question more than once.
And to date, all that i've talked with say that they were ignored, public and private.
We are talking years here, not days, weeks, months, YEARS...
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Mitch,
I would like to explore this comment in a little more detail.. Is this still the case? Or with some assurance the coins at TT are not mislabeled? Someone posted awhile back that SF and BS are easy to differentiate. I don’t see the simplicity. I have a 2004 Maine and the fields appear to be Satin.. I know this was prior to SF coins, so how is it possible. Is there a way to know for sure?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Wondercoin
I have respect for you as a dealer and a fellow collectors but I have to disagree with you on this one issue, I think you use the term “Mechanical Error” a little to loose.
If PCGS miss – labels a “Business Strike” coin as a “Satin Finish” coin or visa-versa why do you consider it a “Mechanical Error”? There is an error in what PCGS has done but it is not a “Mechanical Error”. I know of two instances that a SMS coin from the 1965-67 time period was graded as a “Business Strike” coin and PCGS did the right thing and bought the coins under their “Grade Guarantee” because the coin was a “SMS”. “Mechanical Errors” are not covered under the “Grade Guarantee” so this tells me that even PCGS doesn’t consider miss – labeled coins of this nature “Mechanical Errors”.
I could see you using the term “Mechanical Error” if PCGS put the wrong coin number on the slab, wrong denomination on the slab, or even listed the wrong date on the slab. It would be a stretch, but I might be able to buy the argument of a “Mechanical Error” if they had the right PCGS coin number on the slab but forgot to say it was “Satin Finish” or a “SMS”. But if the PCGS coin number on the slab is for a “Business Strike” coin and it shows no marking on the slab that it is anything but a “Business Strike” coin then it is PCGS’s error but not a “Mechanical Error”.
There are several 2005 half dollars currently on eBay that PCGS has graded “Business Strike” and I have been informed by follow collectors that had bought them and returned them because they are indeed “Satin Finish”. The dealer in my opinion is wrong for trying to sell them when he knows that they are “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. I sent en email several months ago to PCGS about these coins; to my knowledge PCGS has done nothing about them.
I am sorry, I like the customer service that PCGS gives, but I believe PCGS has dropped the ball on this one. No one or group is perfect, but is PCGS even trying? Why haven’t they fixed the population reports with the work that Doug and others have done? Why haven’t they been pro active trying to fix the problem coins? Why haven’t they gone after the submissions when a problem has been pointed out to them?
It seems that David Hall likes Baseball, he needs to learn the meaning of “Stepping up to the plate”.
There, done with my rant for the time being,
Tim
Wondercoin
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Currin - Me too, particularly some 2004 specimens (after all why did the Denver mint only produce -1- coin from 1999-2003 that has graded MS69 at PCGS ever, yet there are scores of MS69 coins from 2004 (quasi-SF at play here)?
On top of that there is another interesting phenomenon - since the US Mint stopped placing "business strike" coins in the Mint sets beginning with 2005, the bag and roll coins in high grade became very, very tough to locate and highly collectible -agreed.
But, what about the bag and roll coins from pre-2005? For example, as I mentioned about 900 posts ago, I have some CT(p) quarters from rolls that look "night and day" to the coins from the Mint sets in the same grade. Yet, no one seems to care about these special non-mint set 1999 coins from rolls?
But, we have covered all this ad nauseum - let's move on and get these orphan BS coins a home.
Wondercoin
Hey Tim I think he finally heard use?
They came back normal. MS67FB and MS66FB the coin numbers are not SF! 85214 The MS67FB is a top pop! They got my order right!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Boy im feeling kind of like an outsider..i dont even know what sf or maybe more important non sf.. means...enlghten please.
Bruce Scher >>
You're not alone, Bruce. I'm clueless, too.
Oh, well. Time to wander off to the Darkside or the MD forum, where I actually have some inkling of what's being discussed.
I'm clueless AND way behind the times!
Presidential Dollars, Circulation Strikes (2007-present)
Presidential Dollars with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (2007-present)
Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue, Circulation Strikes (2007-present)
Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (2007-present)
Unfortunately this doesn't help State Quarters much as who's going to send PCGS a sealed box, bag, or roll for the FDI designation?
Any Thoughts?
(for good stealth post)
What kind of error do they call it when they put the wrong GRADE?
<<I am sorry, I like the customer service that PCGS gives, but I believe PCGS has dropped the ball on this one. No one or group is perfect, but is PCGS even trying? Why haven’t they fixed the population reports with the work that Doug and others have done? Why haven’t they been pro active trying to fix the problem coins? Why haven’t they gone after the submissions when a problem has been pointed out to them?>>
I appreciate the efforts of all those private individuals who have tried to get these "mechanical [obvious] errors" corrected in the population reports. Wouldn't it also be great to see the corrections reflected in the Price Guide? Wouldn't it be great if these relatively simple requests could be fulfilled? Wouldn't it be great if these relatively simple requests could be acknowledged by PCGS?
During this thread I've noticed the Price Guide has reported the 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" in MS69 steadily creeping up from around $75 to now $500! However, I've noticed no change to the population report for the 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" which still indicates 17 in MS69 and 1 in MS70. I've also noticed no 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" in MS69 or MS70 offered for sale here or anywhere else, so why the price jump? Does anyone really have one these 17 reported 2005-P Minnesota statehood quarters in "business strike" MS69? I'd really like to snag one while they're still affordable. Please consider my offer of $600 if you have one available to sell.
Regards,
Don
Doug and many others here have helped me and many others here to build a "business strike" statehood quarter collection that I can hold on to and be proud of.
He and many others here recognize, acknowledge, and are simply trying to correct known discrepancies.
That's why I've increased my offer for a 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" statehood quarter in PCGS ("error-free") MS69 to $1000.
Happy hunting!
Regards,
Don
<< <i>
That's why I've increased my offer for a 2005-P Minnesota "business strike" statehood quarter in PCGS ("error-free") MS69 to $1000.
>>
I offer $1002. take it or leave it.
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
OK, you win.
<< <i>Real good advice Doug and to amplify your point...
A state quarter collector with a super great eye just spent the last several months screening 45,000 fresh coins down to about 140 candidates! About a 100 hour screening project, not to mention the time needed to cash out 44,860 coins and any extra cost of getting the rolls in the first place (plus grading fees now). I will submit the lot tomorrow to PCGS and, frankly, unless the lot yields handfuls of MS68 coins, the "hunter" would have made more money working at McDonalds! But, to a dedicated collector it really has very little to do with the "money".
Wondercoin >>
Do you know the results yet? I am very intrested in finding out what grades come, not to mention the states. Thanks, Jason
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
<< I do not think 1000 will get you the MN-D in MS69 either, but good luck. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Real good advice Doug and to amplify your point...
A state quarter collector with a super great eye just spent the last several months screening 45,000 fresh coins down to about 140 candidates! About a 100 hour screening project, not to mention the time needed to cash out 44,860 coins and any extra cost of getting the rolls in the first place (plus grading fees now). I will submit the lot tomorrow to PCGS and, frankly, unless the lot yields handfuls of MS68 coins, the "hunter" would have made more money working at McDonalds! But, to a dedicated collector it really has very little to do with the "money".
Wondercoin >>
Do you know the results yet? I am very intrested in finding out what grades come, not to mention the states. Thanks, Jason >>
Any Help?
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
forty to fifty coins nice enough to grade MS68. 90% of these are "d" mint coins.
Wondercoin
P.S. Congratulations to Doug Rall for taking over first place in the MS State quarter Registry this year. No one deserves to be there more than you Doug.
And, when they all end up MS67's, I'm sure we'll be coming to you as well to fill some holes!
Wondercoin
I also own the NGC BS MS69 Bison, pop 1 of 1. It doesn't look at all like a SF, but how can anyone tell?
Mike
<< <i>Coins are not back from grading yet. I believe there were roughly
forty to fifty coins nice enough to grade MS68. 90% of these are "d" mint coins.
>>
Let me know how the grades go. Also why are there so many MS68's in 2002 and 2004 but not 2003?
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
Monday July 02, 2007 5:34 PM
<< When will PCGS update the on-line populations for the 2007 coins, in particular, the Fist Strike 2007-W gold eagles? Is there a regular schedule for updates? >>
The on-line Pop Reports are updated early each Monday morning. Any coin that is listed in the on-line Pop Report will receive an update. If you see something that does not appear ot be correct, please let us know.
-------------------------
Ron Guth
President
Professional Coin Grading Service
www.pcgs.com
<< <i>If you see something that does not appear ot be correct, please let us know. >>
Good luck!!! It hasn't work for this issue yet. Going on two years and still waiting on the Big Fix
1 1 11795328 39028 2006-P 25C South Dakota US MS67
2 1 11795342 39026 2006-P 25C North Dakota US MS67
3 1 11795302 39020 2006-P 25C Nevada US MS67
4 1 11795285 39024 2006-P 25C Colorado US MS67
5 1 11795254 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
6 1 11795253 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
7 1 11795252 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
8 1 11795257 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
9 1 11795261 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
10 1 11795260 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
11 1 11795259 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
12 1 11795262 39023 2006-D 25C Nebraska US MS67
13 1 11795333 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
14 1 11795334 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
15 1 11795330 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
16 1 11795340 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
17 1 11795337 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
18 1 11795335 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
19 1 11795339 39027 2006-D 25C North Dakota US MS67
20 1 11795269 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
21 1 11795282 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
22 1 11795283 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
23 1 11795274 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
24 1 11795276 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
25 1 11795268 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
26 1 11795277 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
27 1 11795267 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
28 1 11795266 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
29 1 11795272 39025 2006-D 25C Colorado US MS67
30 1 11795317 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
31 1 11795312 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
32 1 11795314 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
33 1 11795319 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
34 1 11795316 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
35 1 11795318 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
36 1 11795320 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
37 1 11795315 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
38 1 11795313 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
39 1 11795323 39029 2006-D 25C South Dakota US MS67
40 1 11795294 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
41 1 11795289 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
42 1 11795290 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
43 1 11795291 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
44 1 11795288 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
45 1 11795298 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
46 1 11795300 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
47 1 11795301 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
48 1 11795295 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
49 1 11795299 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
50 1 11795296 39021 2006-D 25C Nevada US MS67
However feel free to send the coins to me
Wondercoin
<< <i>how much for your services Mas? >>
Make me an offer I can't refuse
WS
<< <i> I am sure that with the awards out of the way Guth and Co. will finally get around to solving the SF vs BS issue! Stop laughing...... >>
Heard that said last year and before that same old same old
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
<< <i>Stop laughing...... >>
<< <i>Don't feel too bad Mitch. We handed over a very nice lot of P/D Idaho Business Strike 25c with several lock 68s in there, but we didn't make any. I believe they cracked them out and downgraded somewhere in the process. On the positive side, PCGS is living up to their tough standard. >>
I feel your pain guys, just one MS68 on each of my last orders
Mitch, not sure if I missed your E-mail but still looking to relocate
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
The sad part is that the seller knows that 2005-D is a mislabeled coin and is trying to stick someone that is unaware.
Tim
<< <i>The sad part is that the seller knows that 2005-D is a mislabeled coin and is trying to stick someone that is unaware. >>
If I ever get stuck in a deal like that, you can bet I'll rake the seller over the coals on the forums.
I think anyone who knows of a seller, "for sure", doing that, should do the same. It would let other forum members know that said seller should be avoided. Unless of course, the buyer is willing to use any means to advance up the registry ladder.
Be carefull fellow collectors, the weeds are full of snakes. And sometimes you just have to bust a cap in one's arse (so to speak) to scare off the rest.
We all remember a well respected forum member who was found to be A/T-ing coins. A sad thing, but a real eye opener. You want to forget it, but to do so invites history to repeat itself.