<< <i>Also, why hasn't PCGS allowed the BS of 2005 to 2010 into all the registry sets of the Jefferson nickels. They have been added to the variety sets......as a variety? Isn't this one of the questions raised at the beginning of this thread? Surely they must know something, have reasons for their stance on the matter. And we all know how everyone here is so dependent on PCGS's opinion. If they don't have enough info or can't make much of a difference between the two coins, perhaps they have acted accordingly, disallowing BS coins, a sense in all likelyhood, they don't really exist. >>
Business Strike Jefferson don't exist in your opinion but all others do? Why Because they are not bright and shiny?
<< <i>Leo - Understood. And, research the 1880 Shield nickel "debate" and then consider the similarities to what we are talking about here.
Wondercoin >>
Another interesting thing I've learned through all this, that the sandblasting of dies is something that's not new, it's been with us for awhile.
Leo
And by the way, I have been waiting for you to post again since I resurrected this thread. I never posted myself until now because I didn't like what I was seeing with the SF coins. Like what was on everyone else's mind, where are the business strikes? How am I going to continue collecting my series of BS coins. In all that time, I haven't been able to find an answer to that, here in this thread or anywhere else.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
IMHO with very few exceptions it is easy to spot the difference between coins struck from specially prepared dies using higher striking pressure that create the satin finish surface texture on the coin, and coins prepared from roughly sandblasted dies intended for regualr circulation. The things I describe above are only needed if it is not obvious at first look. There are many other things to look for if the surface of the coin is too hard to see.
1) Planchets. The SF planchets used for the SHQ coins are thoroughly cleansed and are usually tarnish free white unlike business strike planchets that are often darker, probably slightly toned before they are even struck. One of the toughest business strike SHQ to differentiate are the OR-P from 2005. While struck with business strike dies the placnchets are very white so have that bright white appearance on the early strikes. The OR-P MS69 I own is tough to tell at first glance but when you look at the coin surfaces ( I use an ANAC's loop not a microscope) you can easily see the difference when you know what to look for in the surface texture. This is a coin Danentype had graded before he release of 2005 SF mint sets. I also found 3 OR-P in MS68 that are similar to the MS69.
2) Die cracks and breaks. Even the MS68 business strike coins often show some slight die crack usually near the tip of the obverse bust or along the base of the bust or in the nose area and other areas of the state design side. I have seen a few SF coins with the lower bust die crack but they are very scarce and not often seen in the mint sets and without exception they have been blazing white obvious SF coins.
3) Legends and devices. Mint set coins including those prior to the SF are very well struck due to higher pressure et. al. Since business strike coins were no longer included in the mint sets for 2005-2008 those business strikes were not specaily struck hence even the well struck business strike SHQ coins from this 2005-2008 era have less than fully squared off lettering on them while all satin finsih coins are typically very well struck with full squared off lettering.
4) Luster patterns. Luster pattern on the SF coins is very homogenous and diffuse while business strike coins will often have more character. Often more of a sheeting luster pattern on a business strike verses the uniform diffuse satin finish look.
My thought is that folks that cannot see the difference or do not appreciate the differences and are happy with the SF coins should collect SF coins. SF coins are extremely high quality and are cheap due to the abundance.
I personally prefer to collect coins that are intended for circulation. Each business strike coin has its unique character and is not fussed over to make it look like all the rest. Like us unique characters that respond to these threads!!
<< <i>Also, why hasn't PCGS allowed the BS of 2005 to 2010 into all the registry sets of the Jefferson nickels. They have been added to the variety sets......as a variety? Isn't this one of the questions raised at the beginning of this thread? Surely they must know something, have reasons for their stance on the matter. And we all know how everyone here is so dependent on PCGS's opinion. If they don't have enough info or can't make much of a difference between the two coins, perhaps they have acted accordingly, disallowing BS coins, a sense in all likelyhood, they don't really exist. >>
Business Strike Jefferson don't exist in your opinion but all others do? Why Because they are not bright and shiny? >>
That's the jiff of it. And where are all the others that should be posting to this thread if they had any concerns whatsoever about not being able to add BS coins to their regular sets. But thank God for the varieties set, correct?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>sit down to countless boxes and bags of coins and you will see for yourself that surface varies from denomination to denomination and also between P and D mint coins. >>
<< <i>I personally prefer to collect coins that are intended for circulation. Each business strike coin has its unique character and is not fussed over to make it look like all the rest. Like us unique characters that respond to these threads!! >>
My thought is that folks that cannot see the difference or do not appreciate the differences and are happy with the SF coins should collect SF coins. SF coins are extremely high quality and are cheap due to the abundance.
I personally prefer to collect coins that are intended for circulation. Each business strike coin has its unique character and is not fussed over to make it look like all the rest. Like us unique characters that respond to these threads!!
Collect on and enjoy!!
I don't doubt what you know about SF and BS coins but if you could provide the resources you draw your information on, it will be a great help for many of us to understand where you're coming from. Did you work at the US Mint?
Thank you in advance,
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Summary of Goals (of the US Mint from a 1994 report.
Circulating Coinage:
Produce coinage to satisfy the needs of commerce in a cost-efficient and safe manner with state-of-the-art manufacturing technology and equipment.
* Produce coins and maintain inventories at sufficient levels to meet Federal Reserve Bank requirements. * Produce circulating commemorative quarters as mandated by law. * By 2005, reduce the controllable costs of circulating coinage by 15%. * Become a world leader in minting technology.
* Produce and promote a dollar coin as mandated by law.
By 2005, reduce the controllable costs of circulating coinage by 15%.
Interesting goal! Did they know back in 1994 that they would eventually make use of one set of dies for two types of coins? It does sound like a good way to cut costs.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
There are people who literally can not tell the difference between a PR69DC and an MS69SF coin! We've seen some of the mechanical errors involving these! There are people who can not tell the difference (subtle at times) between 1965-1967 SMS coins and business strike coins (don't get Doug R. started) not to mention 1994 and 1997 BS nickels and SMS versions There are people who can not tell the difference between $50,000 MS65 1880 Shield nickels at $500 proof versions There are people who can not tell the difference between 2005-date SF coins and business strike coins and on and on and on.
Meanwhile, collect what you desire. If you are happy with a SF coin for $25, avoid the $5,000 business strike version in the same grade. If you want a $50 or so 1965 Wash quarter in MS67SMS, avoid the $1,500 business strike version. If you want a Kennedy half in SMS (1965-67) in MS67 grade, avoid the multi-thousand dollar versions and buy the $50 or so version, etc., etc., etc.
If I understand all of this ... Leo believes the SF versions are plenty of coin for the money and look very close to business strike pieces. Doug, Michael and others point out they can easily tell the difference between the two and enjoy collecting and dealing in the business strike versions. Many others are also only too happy to buy $2,500 - $5,000 business strike versions when they could easily settle for $25 SF versions. Likewise, many folks are content with a $500 1880 proof nickel as oppsed to the $50,000 version.
Does that sum up the debate?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i> Interesting goal! Did they know back in 1994 that they would eventually make use of one set of dies for two types of coins? It does sound like a good way to cut costs. >>
I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, but are you speculating or do you know for sure that the dies are used interchangeable for “satin finish” and “business strike” coinage? I haven’t heard or seen any documentation that a die used for the “satin finish” coins matched up with the unique characteristics or die marks of a “business strike” coin or even the other way around. Without showing a example, your thesis is without merit.
Regarding the source of the information. SF verses business strike coins are my own observations. The information regarding the mint production process has been published in the past and included in this long thread....
As Mike mentions above only a handful of us went nuts and looked at hundreds of thousands of business strike coins from 2005 forward. I estimate that I have looked thru around 800,000 business strike state quarters from 2005 - 2008. I supplied my local bank for many years. They all knew me as the quarter guy. They even gave me an out of stock coin counter with a frayed electrical plug that I replaced so I could process the tens of thousand of coins more efficiently. Bank customers loved it and allowed me to get rid of the huge piles of coins after I looked thru them.
Typically I would start by ordering ten roll sets and three $250 bags both P and D from the mint for each new release.... those would always arrive first and give me something to look at while the bank distribution process took more time. Next I would also order six $500 boxes of each new P and D release from dealers/armorys around the country to better my chances of finding nice ones. If there was nice material shipped from the source then I would order more.
So basically would look on the average thru $10,000 face value of each new release.... 40,000 coins x 5 states per year or 200,000 coins per year.
I have a vast grading set and personal collection. When PCGS in the beginning announced that either a business strike or satin finsish coin would count equally in the registry I set out to analyze the differences in the coins to show why the either or strategy was not in the best interest of the hobby in my opinion.
I have spent countless hours examing the SHQ and noting differences. There are many things you can see on business strike coins that are not on SF coins that I have not mentioned because pictures are needed to illistrate and photography is not my area of expertise.
At some point a book on the subject will need to be written properly illustrated with photos.
Regarding the theory of used SF dies being used for SHQ business strikes I do not support that theory because:
1) I have never found a SF coin in the 800,000 +/- SHQ business strike coins I have looked at. The coins I looked at were all fresh and not re-wraps. There are many SF coins cashed in at the bank but these will be in re-wrapped rolls, not original rolls.
2) The mint production runs for the business strike SHQ were of limited sequential duration. The first SHQ release each year was for a few months then production would stop, followed by the second thru 5th quarter release each year. Coin World would report the mintage at different times during the year after each production run was completed.
3) Mint sets were struck later in the year. As I recall the mint sets came out in the fall after the first three SHQ business strike production runs that year had already been completed.
It is possible that the last two of the five annual SHQ business strike production runs each year could have used discarded SF dies but virtually impossible for the first three releases each year because production of those three SHQ had already ceased before the mint sets were even released.
If there were any discarded SF dies used in business strike production they would most likely pertain to the last two SHQ released each year.
All of the coins I have seen that look SF have the early die strike surface granulation and that is why they look that way.... but once agian the granulation is different on a business strike verses SF just looks similar with the naked eye
1) I have never found a SF coin in the 800,000 +/- SHQ business strike coins I have looked at. The coins I looked at were all fresh and not re-wraps. There are many SF coins cashed in at the bank but these will be in re-wrapped rolls, not original rolls. >>
You do make some excelent points which strongly indicate all mint set dies are unlikely to be used for business strikes. However the 800,000 coins are not an adequate sample. The incidence of SF appearing coins in circulation is quite low presumably because the plating wears off the dies early and struck coins are no longer distinguishable. If you got one of these in the 800,000 there'd likely be a large number (~50). While an 20,000 sample is significant it's not much larger than the incidence I've seen in circulation.
I will pay a great deal more attention to which specific issues I see in the future.
There have been other indications over the years that retired mint set dies are used for circulation. You may well have a better handle on whether this still true than I.
And, I want to give a shout out to my top state quarter screener who slabbed (2) pop 1's and (1) pop 2 (making both coins in the pop 2/0) business strike coins last month from the latest 20,000 coin search!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>And, I want to give a shout out to my top state quarter screener who slabbed (2) pop 1's and (1) pop 2 (making both coins in the pop 2/0) business strike coins last month from the latest 20,000 coin search! >>
<< <i>And, I want to give a shout out to my top state quarter screener who slabbed (2) pop 1's and (1) pop 2 (making both coins in the pop 2/0) business strike coins last month from the latest 20,000 coin search!
Wondercoin >>
And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
"And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made? Leo"
Leo - I generally do not want to spend "huge amounts" of cash on these coins. But, I am personally comfortable spending a grand or two on pieces I am interested in. In my top series I collect (clad Washington quarters), the finest known 1965-1967 coins in "business strike" only cost a grand or two tops (e.g. 1965). I am fine spending that amount even though SMS coins in the same grade/same date might cost under $100. If a 1965 quarter in MS68 might ever be graded at PCGS (pop top grade now is only MS67), I might spend $5,000 to buy it even though an SMS example might be only several hundred dollars or so. So, yes, I would consider pursuing certain pop 1 business strike coins in my top series of choice at $5,000/coin and, therefore, have no issue with guys like D.R. or others spending $5,000/coin for pop 1 business strike coins in the state quarter series. In fact, even though it is not my #1 priority set, sight-seen, I would pay D.R. / ex: MAS $15,000.00 today for his Delaware pop 1 quarter. I do not are how that one was "made"!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i> And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made?
Leo >>
If you are looking for the "Best of the Best", sometimes you have to pony up. Just a fact of life. As far as how the US Mint makes the coins, I am comfortable that the "satin finish" are different types then the "bussiness strike" coins are. I think Mr. Rall illistraded this point already.
I don't question your spending habits on how you collect, why are you questioning everyone else's?
<< <i>"And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made? Leo"
Leo - I generally do not want to spend "huge amounts" of cash on these coins. But, I am personally comfortable spending a grand or two on pieces I am interested in. In my top series I collect (clad Washington quarters), the finest known 1965-1967 coins in "business strike" only cost a grand or two tops (e.g. 1965). I am fine spending that amount even though SMS coins in the same grade/same date might cost under $100. If a 1965 quarter in MS68 might ever be graded at PCGS (pop top grade now is only MS67), I might spend $5,000 to buy it even though an SMS example might be only several hundred dollars or so. So, yes, I would consider pursuing certain pop 1 business strike coins in my top series of choice at $5,000/coin and, therefore, have no issue with guys like D.R. or others spending $5,000/coin for pop 1 business strike coins in the state quarter series. In fact, even though it is not my #1 priority set, sight-seen, I would pay D.R. / ex: MAS $15,000.00 today for his Delaware pop 1 quarter. I do not are how that one was "made"!
Wondercoin >>
Don't you think it's interesting that the US Mint never issued mint sets for the circulating strikes? If they had made regular pre-2005 dies for BS coins, I believe we would have seen BS mint sets. If they had made BS mint sets made with coins that were spin-offs from used SF dies, the US Mint would have been under investigation for fraud. And no, I'm not certain about how the 1965 to 1967 BS coins were made either but rumors have it that they were struck from old SMS dies as well. But I would have the same problem collecting a BS coin that resembled a SMS example. I have one roll of 2004 nickels and 40+ of the 2005 and 2006 nickels. And I don't need to open up these rolls to see they have satin finish surfaces to some degree. The 2004 roll does not. I would want my 2005 to 2010 BS to resemble those coins in the 2004 roll and not satin finish coins. I'm also amazed with how long this thread has developed and no-one has any new information from the US Mint on how the circulating coins are made? Hasn't anyone sent them a letter to get the facts? Many of you are collecting and making and selling these assumed BS coins but no-one really knows what they're doing.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i> And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made?
Leo >>
If you are looking for the "Best of the Best", sometimes you have to pony up. Just a fact of life. As far as how the US Mint makes the coins, I am comfortable that the "satin finish" are different types then the "bussiness strike" coins are. I think Mr. Rall illistraded this point already.
I don't question your spending habits on how you collect, why are you questioning everyone else's?
Caleb >>
Hey, it doesn't necessarily mean that folks don't have to care about how those coins are made. I may be the only one that has a problem with it, But here's another thread where a couple of posters can't tell the difference.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I have one roll of 2004 nickels and 40+ of the 2005 and 2006 nickels. And I don't need to open up these rolls to see they have satin finish surfaces to some degree. The 2004 roll does not. >>
Hummmm Guess the roll I had of 2004 Nickels where SF, LOL
1) I have never found a SF coin in the 800,000 +/- SHQ business strike coins I have looked at. The coins I looked at were all fresh and not re-wraps. There are many SF coins cashed in at the bank but these will be in re-wrapped rolls, not original rolls. >>
You do make some excelent points which strongly indicate all mint set dies are unlikely to be used for business strikes. However the 800,000 coins are not an adequate sample. The incidence of SF appearing coins in circulation is quite low presumably because the plating wears off the dies early and struck coins are no longer distinguishable. If you got one of these in the 800,000 there'd likely be a large number (~50). While an 20,000 sample is significant it's not much larger than the incidence I've seen in circulation.
I will pay a great deal more attention to which specific issues I see in the future.
There have been other indications over the years that retired mint set dies are used for circulation. You may well have a better handle on whether this still true than I. >>
I went through at least 100,000 (first to find the Madison weak edges) and never saw a satin finish. I did find a blank planchet. MS62.
Just about every satin finish coin I've seen in hand and online has a gold tint to them. Why is that?
The following, "special cleaning after stamping" is included in each of the definitions I've provided when I resurrected this thread. Can any of you market makers and those dependent on them chime in and give an un-bias opinion on why that is. The big twist is, most of the end roll coins I have have this gold tint about them as well, which kind of supports my opinion that circulating coins are nothing more than water-down SF coins struck from used SF dies. The 1994-P and 1997-P SMS's had the same problem when the reverse sides toned....even while thy were in their special packaging. What you say?
It's also interesting how there's a mixture of these coins on ebay. Coins that show the gold toning and coins that look photo-shopped black and white.
I got the bug again while searching Teletrade auctions and saw those gold tinted 2005 to 2010 coins. tsk! tsk!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I have not commented on this recently because I had hoped to move a little inventory before everyone woke up.
Business strikes are a dime a hundred because of moron Mint Policies. You can still buy thousands of unsearched business strikes by the bag full. Based on the numbers, they might never ever be depleted and the Mint has NO PLANS to melt them.
The Satin Finish are in yearly Mint Sets and can only be sold during the allocated time by law.
If you own non SF Presidents, friggin BAIL AND BAIL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My set is #4 in the 2007-2008 and I'm losing my arse more than any other series. Worthless magnesium play coins.
I'm sure I will be hated for my "betrayal", but I'd rather be hated then stand by while others lose thousands of dollars like I am doing right now.
Satin Finish is the final wash. If this was Satin Finish it would be worth millions, or even billions or for Pete's sake trillions. I'll take a lot less for it.
<< <i>I have not commented on this recently because I had hoped to move a little inventory before everyone woke up.
Business strikes are a dime a hundred because of moron Mint Policies. You can still buy thousands of unsearched business strikes by the bag full. Based on the numbers, they might never ever be depleted and the Mint has NO PLANS to melt them.
The Satin Finish are in yearly Mint Sets and can only be sold during the allocated time by law.
If you own non SF Presidents, friggin BAIL AND BAIL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My set is #4 in the 2007-2008 and I'm losing my arse more than any other series. Worthless magnesium play coins.
I'm sure I will be hated for my "betrayal", but I'd rather be hated then stand by while others lose thousands of dollars like I am doing right now. >>
It can take a very long time for mint production of a coin to get into circulation and then significant percentages can go straight back into storage with circu- lated coin. When mintages are in the multimillion it takes only a few percent to assure that the coins will be plentiful and have no premium for decades. In the early days of clad this is the big factor that kept me on the side lines. The mint was still releasing old clads many years after issue as well as coin which had sat idle for years. At the rate the coins were being used up there would still be many AU early dates in circulation even today as well as an occasional release of pallets of BU coin.
In 1972 they switched to FIFO accounting and began rotating out of storage those which had been there longest. This would assure that the coins would wear out evenly and I began to get interested in the coins speculatively. It was 1975 before the last of the brand new 1965 quarters got into pocket change.
It was somewhat distressing when the FED started moving brand new states issues to the front of the line in 1999 to satisfy the specific demand for these. This assured that many older quarters would get stuck in vaults again and no way to know when they'd get back in use.
The FED still has Kennedy rolls going back to 1993. Most of the quarters from '99 have turned over but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few pallets of the '96 and '98's still in storage.
It just takes time but I agree that these overhangs can prove disasterous if you have put much effort into setting the coins aside.
Glad to hear the SHQ are FIFO. I am not aware of any mint hoards. No doubt millions of dollars worth put back in bags and rolls by collectors that may escape being cashed in at the bank during this long recession. I am always looking for business strike original $500 boxes to search if they are tougher dates in MS67 (all tough in MS68). I am not personally aware of any quantities available to search so PM me with a referral if you do. How about ten original (not re-wrapped) boxes of early strike KS-P or ND-P for example? All the best!! DR
Comments
<< <i>Also, why hasn't PCGS allowed the BS of 2005 to 2010 into all the registry sets of the Jefferson nickels. They have been added to the variety sets......as a variety? Isn't this one of the questions raised at the beginning of this thread? Surely they must know something, have reasons for their stance on the matter. And we all know how everyone here is so dependent on PCGS's opinion. If they don't have enough info or can't make much of a difference between the two coins, perhaps they have acted accordingly, disallowing BS coins, a sense in all likelyhood, they don't really exist. >>
Business Strike Jefferson don't exist in your opinion but all others do? Why Because they are not bright and shiny?
<< <i>Leo - Understood. And, research the 1880 Shield nickel "debate" and then consider the similarities to what we are talking about here.
Wondercoin >>
Another interesting thing I've learned through all this, that the sandblasting of dies is something that's not new, it's been with us for awhile.
Leo
And by the way, I have been waiting for you to post again since I resurrected this thread. I never posted myself until now because I didn't like what I was seeing with the SF coins. Like what was on everyone else's mind, where are the business strikes? How am I going to continue collecting my series of BS coins. In all that time, I haven't been able to find an answer to that, here in this thread or anywhere else.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
1) Planchets. The SF planchets used for the SHQ coins are thoroughly cleansed and are usually tarnish free white unlike business strike planchets that are often darker, probably slightly toned before they are even struck. One of the toughest business strike SHQ to differentiate are the OR-P from 2005. While struck with business strike dies the placnchets are very white so have that bright white appearance on the early strikes. The OR-P MS69 I own is tough to tell at first glance but when you look at the coin surfaces ( I use an ANAC's loop not a microscope) you can easily see the difference when you know what to look for in the surface texture. This is a coin Danentype had graded before he release of 2005 SF mint sets. I also found 3 OR-P in MS68 that are similar to the MS69.
2) Die cracks and breaks. Even the MS68 business strike coins often show some slight die crack usually near the tip of the obverse bust or along the base of the bust or in the nose area and other areas of the state design side. I have seen a few SF coins with the lower bust die crack but they are very scarce and not often seen in the mint sets and without exception they have been blazing white obvious SF coins.
3) Legends and devices. Mint set coins including those prior to the SF are very well struck due to higher pressure et. al. Since business strike coins were no longer included in the mint sets for 2005-2008 those business strikes were not specaily struck hence even the well struck business strike SHQ coins from this 2005-2008 era have less than fully squared off lettering on them while all satin finsih coins are typically very well struck with full squared off lettering.
4) Luster patterns. Luster pattern on the SF coins is very homogenous and diffuse while business strike coins will often have more character. Often more of a sheeting luster pattern on a business strike verses the uniform diffuse satin finish look.
My thought is that folks that cannot see the difference or do not appreciate the differences and are happy with the SF coins should collect SF coins. SF coins are extremely high quality and are cheap due to the abundance.
I personally prefer to collect coins that are intended for circulation. Each business strike coin has its unique character and is not fussed over to make it look like all the rest. Like us unique characters that respond to these threads!!
Collect on and enjoy!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, why hasn't PCGS allowed the BS of 2005 to 2010 into all the registry sets of the Jefferson nickels. They have been added to the variety sets......as a variety? Isn't this one of the questions raised at the beginning of this thread? Surely they must know something, have reasons for their stance on the matter. And we all know how everyone here is so dependent on PCGS's opinion. If they don't have enough info or can't make much of a difference between the two coins, perhaps they have acted accordingly, disallowing BS coins, a sense in all likelyhood, they don't really exist. >>
Business Strike Jefferson don't exist in your opinion but all others do? Why Because they are not bright and shiny? >>
That's the jiff of it. And where are all the others that should be posting to this thread if they had any concerns whatsoever about not being able to add BS coins to their regular sets. But thank God for the varieties set, correct?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>sit down to countless boxes and bags of coins and you will see for yourself that surface varies from denomination to denomination and also between P and D mint coins. >>
<< <i>I personally prefer to collect coins that are intended for circulation. Each business strike coin has its unique character and is not fussed over to make it look like all the rest. Like us unique characters that respond to these threads!! >>
What he said, each Unique
I personally prefer to collect coins that are intended for circulation. Each business strike coin has its unique character and is not fussed over to make it look like all the rest. Like us unique characters that respond to these threads!!
Collect on and enjoy!!
I don't doubt what you know about SF and BS coins but if you could provide the resources you draw your information on, it will be a great help for many of us to understand where you're coming from. Did you work at the US Mint?
Thank you in advance,
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Circulating Coinage:
Produce coinage to satisfy the needs of commerce in a cost-efficient and safe manner with state-of-the-art manufacturing technology and equipment.
* Produce coins and maintain inventories at sufficient levels to meet Federal Reserve Bank requirements.
* Produce circulating commemorative quarters as mandated by law.
* By 2005, reduce the controllable costs of circulating coinage by 15%.
* Become a world leader in minting technology.
* Produce and promote a dollar coin as mandated by law.
By 2005, reduce the controllable costs of circulating coinage by 15%.
Interesting goal! Did they know back in 1994 that they would eventually make use of one set of dies for two types of coins? It does sound like a good way to cut costs.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
There are people who can not tell the difference (subtle at times) between 1965-1967 SMS coins and business strike coins (don't get Doug R. started) not to mention 1994 and 1997 BS nickels and SMS versions
There are people who can not tell the difference between $50,000 MS65 1880 Shield nickels at $500 proof versions
There are people who can not tell the difference between 2005-date SF coins and business strike coins
and on and on and on.
Meanwhile, collect what you desire. If you are happy with a SF coin for $25, avoid the $5,000 business strike version in the same grade. If you want a $50 or so 1965 Wash quarter in MS67SMS, avoid the $1,500 business strike version. If you want a Kennedy half in SMS (1965-67) in MS67 grade, avoid the multi-thousand dollar versions and buy the $50 or so version, etc., etc., etc.
If I understand all of this ... Leo believes the SF versions are plenty of coin for the money and look very close to business strike pieces. Doug, Michael and others point out they can easily tell the difference between the two and enjoy collecting and dealing in the business strike versions. Many others are also only too happy to buy $2,500 - $5,000 business strike versions when they could easily settle for $25 SF versions. Likewise, many folks are content with a $500 1880 proof nickel as oppsed to the $50,000 version.
Does that sum up the debate?
Wondercoin
<< <i> Interesting goal! Did they know back in 1994 that they would eventually make use of one set of dies for two types of coins? It does sound like a good way to cut costs. >>
I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, but are you speculating or do you know for sure that the dies are used interchangeable for “satin finish” and “business strike” coinage? I haven’t heard or seen any documentation that a die used for the “satin finish” coins matched up with the unique characteristics or die marks of a “business strike” coin or even the other way around. Without showing a example, your thesis is without merit.
Regarding the source of the information. SF verses business strike coins are my own observations. The information regarding the mint production process has been published in the past and included in this long thread....
As Mike mentions above only a handful of us went nuts and looked at hundreds of thousands of business strike coins from 2005 forward. I estimate that I have looked thru around 800,000 business strike state quarters from 2005 - 2008. I supplied my local bank for many years. They all knew me as the quarter guy. They even gave me an out of stock coin counter with a frayed electrical plug that I replaced so I could process the tens of thousand of coins more efficiently. Bank customers loved it and allowed me to get rid of the huge piles of coins after I looked thru them.
Typically I would start by ordering ten roll sets and three $250 bags both P and D from the mint for each new release.... those would always arrive first and give me something to look at while the bank distribution process took more time. Next I would also order six $500 boxes of each new P and D release from dealers/armorys around the country to better my chances of finding nice ones. If there was nice material shipped from the source then I would order more.
So basically would look on the average thru $10,000 face value of each new release.... 40,000 coins x 5 states per year or 200,000 coins per year.
I have a vast grading set and personal collection. When PCGS in the beginning announced that either a business strike or satin finsish coin would count equally in the registry I set out to analyze the differences in the coins to show why the either or strategy was not in the best interest of the hobby in my opinion.
I have spent countless hours examing the SHQ and noting differences. There are many things you can see on business strike coins that are not on SF coins that I have not mentioned because pictures are needed to illistrate and photography is not my area of expertise.
At some point a book on the subject will need to be written properly illustrated with photos.
DR
1) I have never found a SF coin in the 800,000 +/- SHQ business strike coins I have looked at. The coins I looked at were all fresh and not re-wraps. There are many SF coins cashed in at the bank but these will be in re-wrapped rolls, not original rolls.
2) The mint production runs for the business strike SHQ were of limited sequential duration. The first SHQ release each year was for a few months then production would stop, followed by the second thru 5th quarter release each year. Coin World would report the mintage at different times during the year after each production run was completed.
3) Mint sets were struck later in the year. As I recall the mint sets came out in the fall after the first three SHQ business strike production runs that year had already been completed.
It is possible that the last two of the five annual SHQ business strike production runs each year could have used discarded SF dies but virtually impossible for the first three releases each year because production of those three SHQ had already ceased before the mint sets were even released.
If there were any discarded SF dies used in business strike production they would most likely pertain to the last two SHQ released each year.
All of the coins I have seen that look SF have the early die strike surface granulation and that is why they look that way.... but once agian the granulation is different on a business strike verses SF just looks similar with the naked eye
IMHO. DR
<< <i>
1) I have never found a SF coin in the 800,000 +/- SHQ business strike coins I have looked at. The coins I looked at were all fresh and not re-wraps. There are many SF coins cashed in at the bank but these will be in re-wrapped rolls, not original rolls.
>>
You do make some excelent points which strongly indicate all mint set
dies are unlikely to be used for business strikes. However the 800,000
coins are not an adequate sample. The incidence of SF appearing coins
in circulation is quite low presumably because the plating wears off the
dies early and struck coins are no longer distinguishable. If you got one
of these in the 800,000 there'd likely be a large number (~50). While an
20,000 sample is significant it's not much larger than the incidence I've
seen in circulation.
I will pay a great deal more attention to which specific issues I see in the
future.
There have been other indications over the years that retired mint set dies
are used for circulation. You may well have a better handle on whether
this still true than I.
Wondercoin
<< <i>And, I want to give a shout out to my top state quarter screener who slabbed (2) pop 1's and (1) pop 2 (making both coins in the pop 2/0) business strike coins last month from the latest 20,000 coin search! >>
That was easy, NOT !!!!
<< <i>And, I want to give a shout out to my top state quarter screener who slabbed (2) pop 1's and (1) pop 2 (making both coins in the pop 2/0) business strike coins last month from the latest 20,000 coin search!
Wondercoin >>
And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made? >>
Oh No you too have graded MS coins that "look" Satin Finish to ..................
Leo - I generally do not want to spend "huge amounts" of cash on these coins. But, I am personally comfortable spending a grand or two on pieces I am interested in. In my top series I collect (clad Washington quarters), the finest known 1965-1967 coins in "business strike" only cost a grand or two tops (e.g. 1965). I am fine spending that amount even though SMS coins in the same grade/same date might cost under $100. If a 1965 quarter in MS68 might ever be graded at PCGS (pop top grade now is only MS67), I might spend $5,000 to buy it even though an SMS example might be only several hundred dollars or so. So, yes, I would consider pursuing certain pop 1 business strike coins in my top series of choice at $5,000/coin and, therefore, have no issue with guys like D.R. or others spending $5,000/coin for pop 1 business strike coins in the state quarter series. In fact, even though it is not my #1 priority set, sight-seen, I would pay D.R. / ex: MAS $15,000.00 today for his Delaware pop 1 quarter. I do not are how that one was "made"!
Wondercoin
<< <i> And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made?
Leo >>
If you are looking for the "Best of the Best", sometimes you have to pony up. Just a fact of life. As far as how the US Mint makes the coins, I am comfortable that the "satin finish" are different types then the "bussiness strike" coins are. I think Mr. Rall illistraded this point already.
I don't question your spending habits on how you collect, why are you questioning everyone else's?
Caleb
<< <i>"And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made? Leo"
Leo - I generally do not want to spend "huge amounts" of cash on these coins. But, I am personally comfortable spending a grand or two on pieces I am interested in. In my top series I collect (clad Washington quarters), the finest known 1965-1967 coins in "business strike" only cost a grand or two tops (e.g. 1965). I am fine spending that amount even though SMS coins in the same grade/same date might cost under $100. If a 1965 quarter in MS68 might ever be graded at PCGS (pop top grade now is only MS67), I might spend $5,000 to buy it even though an SMS example might be only several hundred dollars or so. So, yes, I would consider pursuing certain pop 1 business strike coins in my top series of choice at $5,000/coin and, therefore, have no issue with guys like D.R. or others spending $5,000/coin for pop 1 business strike coins in the state quarter series. In fact, even though it is not my #1 priority set, sight-seen, I would pay D.R. / ex: MAS $15,000.00 today for his Delaware pop 1 quarter. I do not are how that one was "made"!
Wondercoin >>
Don't you think it's interesting that the US Mint never issued mint sets for the circulating strikes? If they had made regular pre-2005 dies for BS coins, I believe we would have seen BS mint sets. If they had made BS mint sets made with coins that were spin-offs from used SF dies, the US Mint would have been under investigation for fraud.
And no, I'm not certain about how the 1965 to 1967 BS coins were made either but rumors have it that they were struck from old SMS dies as well. But I would have the same problem collecting a BS coin that resembled a SMS example.
I have one roll of 2004 nickels and 40+ of the 2005 and 2006 nickels. And I don't need to open up these rolls to see they have satin finish surfaces to some degree. The 2004 roll does not. I would want my 2005 to 2010 BS to resemble those coins in the 2004 roll and not satin finish coins.
I'm also amazed with how long this thread has developed and no-one has any new information from the US Mint on how the circulating coins are made? Hasn't anyone sent them a letter to get the facts? Many of you are collecting and making and selling these assumed BS coins but no-one really knows what they're doing.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i> And you're OK with spending huge amounts of cash for coins you have no idea from the US Mint on how they are made?
Leo >>
If you are looking for the "Best of the Best", sometimes you have to pony up. Just a fact of life. As far as how the US Mint makes the coins, I am comfortable that the "satin finish" are different types then the "bussiness strike" coins are. I think Mr. Rall illistraded this point already.
I don't question your spending habits on how you collect, why are you questioning everyone else's?
Caleb >>
Hey, it doesn't necessarily mean that folks don't have to care about how those coins are made. I may be the only one that has a problem with it, But here's another thread where a couple of posters can't tell the difference.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i><< Hey Leo
2004 P Peace Medal Jefferson Nickel PCGS MS68
And your thoughts now after seeing these pic's???
Certainly not
<< smooth, mirror-like surfaces >>
Best to know before you go.......... >> >>
2004 P Peace Medal Jefferson Nickel PCGS MS68
<< <i>I'd say satin! >>
<< <i>I have one roll of 2004 nickels and 40+ of the 2005 and 2006 nickels. And I don't need to open up these rolls to see they have satin finish surfaces to some degree. The 2004 roll does not. >>
Hummmm Guess the roll I had of 2004 Nickels where SF, LOL
<< <i>
<< <i>
1) I have never found a SF coin in the 800,000 +/- SHQ business strike coins I have looked at. The coins I looked at were all fresh and not re-wraps. There are many SF coins cashed in at the bank but these will be in re-wrapped rolls, not original rolls.
>>
You do make some excelent points which strongly indicate all mint set
dies are unlikely to be used for business strikes. However the 800,000
coins are not an adequate sample. The incidence of SF appearing coins
in circulation is quite low presumably because the plating wears off the
dies early and struck coins are no longer distinguishable. If you got one
of these in the 800,000 there'd likely be a large number (~50). While an
20,000 sample is significant it's not much larger than the incidence I've
seen in circulation.
I will pay a great deal more attention to which specific issues I see in the
future.
There have been other indications over the years that retired mint set dies
are used for circulation. You may well have a better handle on whether
this still true than I. >>
I went through at least 100,000 (first to find the Madison weak edges) and never saw a satin finish. I did find a blank planchet. MS62.
<< <i>I went through at least 100,000 (first to find the Madison weak edges) and never saw a satin finish. I did find a blank planchet. MS62.
Lucky DOG!
Looks Satin Finish
The following, "special cleaning after stamping" is included in each of the definitions I've provided when I resurrected this thread. Can any of you market makers and those dependent on them chime in and give an un-bias opinion on why that is. The big twist is, most of the end roll coins I have have this gold tint about them as well, which kind of supports my opinion that circulating coins are nothing more than water-down SF coins struck from used SF dies. The 1994-P and 1997-P SMS's had the same problem when the reverse sides toned....even while thy were in their special packaging. What you say?
It's also interesting how there's a mixture of these coins on ebay. Coins that show the gold toning and coins that look photo-shopped black and white.
I got the bug again while searching Teletrade auctions and saw those gold tinted 2005 to 2010 coins. tsk! tsk!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Business strikes are a dime a hundred because of moron Mint Policies. You can still buy thousands of unsearched business strikes by the bag full. Based on the numbers, they might never ever be depleted and the Mint has NO PLANS to melt them.
The Satin Finish are in yearly Mint Sets and can only be sold during the allocated time by law.
If you own non SF Presidents, friggin BAIL AND BAIL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My set is #4 in the 2007-2008 and I'm losing my arse more than any other series. Worthless magnesium play coins.
I'm sure I will be hated for my "betrayal", but I'd rather be hated then stand by while others lose thousands of dollars like I am doing right now.
<< <i>
Looks Satin Finish
Satin Finish is the final wash. If this was Satin Finish it would be worth millions, or even billions or for Pete's sake trillions. I'll take a lot less for it.
Wondercoin
<< <i>I have not commented on this recently because I had hoped to move a little inventory before everyone woke up.
Business strikes are a dime a hundred because of moron Mint Policies. You can still buy thousands of unsearched business strikes by the bag full. Based on the numbers, they might never ever be depleted and the Mint has NO PLANS to melt them.
The Satin Finish are in yearly Mint Sets and can only be sold during the allocated time by law.
If you own non SF Presidents, friggin BAIL AND BAIL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My set is #4 in the 2007-2008 and I'm losing my arse more than any other series. Worthless magnesium play coins.
I'm sure I will be hated for my "betrayal", but I'd rather be hated then stand by while others lose thousands of dollars like I am doing right now. >>
It can take a very long time for mint production of a coin to get into circulation
and then significant percentages can go straight back into storage with circu-
lated coin. When mintages are in the multimillion it takes only a few percent
to assure that the coins will be plentiful and have no premium for decades. In
the early days of clad this is the big factor that kept me on the side lines. The
mint was still releasing old clads many years after issue as well as coin which
had sat idle for years. At the rate the coins were being used up there would
still be many AU early dates in circulation even today as well as an occasional
release of pallets of BU coin.
In 1972 they switched to FIFO accounting and began rotating out of storage
those which had been there longest. This would assure that the coins would
wear out evenly and I began to get interested in the coins speculatively. It was
1975 before the last of the brand new 1965 quarters got into pocket change.
It was somewhat distressing when the FED started moving brand new states
issues to the front of the line in 1999 to satisfy the specific demand for these.
This assured that many older quarters would get stuck in vaults again and no
way to know when they'd get back in use.
The FED still has Kennedy rolls going back to 1993. Most of the quarters from
'99 have turned over but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few pallets of
the '96 and '98's still in storage.
It just takes time but I agree that these overhangs can prove disasterous if
you have put much effort into setting the coins aside.