Sorry for the delay Mitch. Had my head engrossed in the new 2007 mint sets looking for SF69-SF70 quality. I have sent a few e-mails to the President of PCGS over the past week trying to get the error fixed. Have scans of two more of the errror coins in that range that are now fixed by the efforts of a collector and I e-mailed Ron the new scans as further proof just a few days ago. I will forward to Mitch the e-mail that I just sent to Ron to bring Mitch up to speed. Then go home for lunch and pick up the full report (has invoice print-outs for the two batches we have invoice numbers from Brian Childs and David Doan and each serial number and coin descritpion is clearly shown. The missing mid-batch we do not have an invoice number or invoice print-out for but we have detailed it out on a coin by coin by serial number basis as well. The complete serial number range all need to be shown as SF coins are from 73689011 – 73689510 inclusive and some within that range have now been fixed and there are a lot of dead s/n in that range for NGO coins from the bulk batches that were sent in except for the mid-batch 100% graded out. I have not e-mailed Mitch in a while so PM me if the address has changed recently else I will just send to the one last used. Clearly time now to get that simple reclassification error fixed. dr
For those of you wondering about the 3 coins in the 68 column of the pop report:
39034 Idaho P MS67 = 68 / 3 higher
That was a holdering mistake. They were D's and have since been fixed, so the ID-P 68 has not been made yet. We've been at it for a while, but a very difficult coin to put in a 68 holder. I believe we have searched about 14,000 coins and didn't make very many 67s.
Edited to add: The pop report will likely be fixed very soon.
The Wyoming D MS68 on the pop report is no mistake though.
<< <i>That was a holdering mistake. They were D's and have since been fixed, so the ID-P 68 has not been made yet. We've been at it for a while, but a very difficult coin to put in a 68 holder. I believe we have searched about 14,000 coins and didn't make very many 67s. >>
Good score on the WY-D in MS68 Seth and the ND-D in MS68 Michael. I estimate both of these to be tougher coins as far as D mints go.... currently pop 1 coins. Hope I get a 68 to report from my first batch of WY and 2nd batch of Idaho in for grading now. Now get to work and find some P mints in MS68 if you can! dr.
I met with DH today and handed over the back up I received from Doug to address the 300+ problem coins in the pop report. He seemed very eager to address the issue. I'll follow up with him next week.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Incredible rush to find a tough pop one coin Mike and Seth. I am ready for another fix now! Good job Mitch hand delivering that population report error report. Once you look it it over carefully and realize PCGS logged the orders and released the grades even prior to the release of business strike Kansas and West Virginia quarters and the results show business strike in the data base for these dates it is easy to see there is prima facia evidence that this needs fixed. JVD RB and others put a lot of work in this and we should all thank them once this gets fixed and god-speed I hope. dr
Real good news for collectors - there is now a mechanism in place so that what happened with those 2005 BS/SF pop report errros does not happen again. The bottom line is I now have a contact at PCGS who will promptly REMOVE the highly suspect pop report entries and allow the owners of those coins to later prove their coin is deserving of being restored to the pop report (during which time the pop report would not report the highly suspect entries) . Same system that was used for years with Rick Montgomery to police 1965-1967 SMS errors in the pop report.
So, PLEASE - try to find the next 2007 SF error in the pop report (and the couple issues that are there now have already been reported)so we can test this new system guys!!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Great job everyone. I have always wondered about the 1999P Connecticut MS68 pop 1 coin. No one I have contacted about this coin can come up with who owns it or if it really exists. Is it possible to get PCGS to contact the owner and have them prove the coin exists?
Glad to hear about a mistake fixing mechanism at PCGS Mitch. I noticed yesterday that the pop report still shows three ID-P in MS68 and Seth reported that as an error so hopefully he will follow up to be sure that gets fixed. Also, the report we all put together that you hand delivered to PCGS should be acted on soon regarding the 350+/- errors to fix for 2005. Regards, dr.
I didn't realize they still had the P-68s showing on the pop report. I just sent an email in to check on having the pop fixed. They were reholdered quickly and they usually fix their cert tags in the pop right away. Maybe they're behind? Should be fixed soon I think.
Yep it may be time to let this die but lets not jump yet, I will miss this one. Will there be a new one started by the one's who want it the way it is now ?????
Dan
U S Navy Retired 22 years - ENC(SW) Ret. - Travling Nuclear Maintanence Contractor - Working Indian Point Nuclear plant Buchanan New York
<< <i>Thanks Seth. I know we can depend on you. Regards, dr >>
I was told that this was fixed, but I just checked and the (3) ID-P 68s are still showing. I'm going to follow up on this again so they'll hopefully fix it a little more timely.
Still some pop report error corrections to live for in the SHQ series. DH told me himself this old error of 350 +/- coins is under scrutiny now. The other new error not corrected as reported by CoinFame is the three ID-P in MS68 showing on the pop report still that do not exist, that were actually ID-D coins as reported. I know Seth will not let this go but lets keep an eye on that error to. dr
Edit: Seth and I responded at the same time so I did not se his repsonse before posting mine. He is on top of that ID-P error with no prompting from me!
Since they started making SF coins, to this day, I've never bothered collecting them. Even when this long thread was in progress, I just didn't care for the new SF coins so I didn't post until now. I mean, there were millions made, what was the big hurry to collect them? I certainly didn't have one back then, I was concentrating on the earlier dates. But recently, while searching the US Mint website, I came across the following definitions of the term, "uncirculated". If I'm reading them right, SF and non-FS coins are made from the same dies. Read the following definitions and see what you come up with. I've highlighted the segments in bold print that causes me to think the US Mint made use of used SF dies to strike the business strikes/circulating coins.
uncirculated:
The term "uncirculated" may have three different meanings when applied to a coin. • First, it can refer to the particular manufacturing process by which a coin is made. • Second, it can be used as a grade when referring to a coin's degree of preservation and quality of the strike. • Or third, "uncirculated" can point to the fact that a coin has not been used in everyday commerce.
At the United States Mint, we use the term uncirculated when referring to the special coining process used to make the coin, which gives it a satin finish. Uncirculated coins are manufactured using the same process as circulating coins, but with quality enhancements such as slightly higher coining force, early strikes from dies, special cleaning after stamping, and special packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections.
Uncirculated.
Uncirculated coins are struck like circulating coins, but with higher force, newer dies, special cleaning after stamping, and Mylar® packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections as described below.
IMO, the EDS strikes the Satin Finish coins, from the newer dies were made for mint sets. And when a set of SF dies didn't produce the level of quality they wanted for the mint sets, all the lower quality coins were released for circulation.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Hmmmm.....I dont see how the finish on this satin finish Lincoln at all resembles any business strike coin. But, hey, Id be happy if it would ever regrade as a business strike MS70
<< <i>ambro51, mas3387, are you both intentionally/purposely missing my point??
Leo >>
Yes, I think you are right.
But your thesis is wrong.
<< <i> IMO, the EDS strikes the Satin Finish coins, from the newer dies were made for mint sets. And when a set of SF dies didn't produce the level of quality they wanted for the mint sets, all the lower quality coins were released for circulation. >>
Most coins released from the US Mint are struck and released before the Mint Sets are released to the public. The die state has nothing to do with a coin being “Satin Finish” or “Business Strike”, there are early and mid die state for each. I’m not sure if the Mint allows the Proof or Satin Finish dies to progress to a late die state before they replace them. I have not seen a late die state Proof of Satin Finish coin dated after 2003.
Do some of the “Satin Finish” coins have the same characteristics as “Business Strikes”, heck yes and the same is true for the opposite. Just like some of the 1965 SMS coins can have a “Business Strike” appearance. I have a 1966 PCGS MS67 Kennedy half dollar that my dad purchased from a member here on these boards, PCGS says it is a “Business Strike”, I look at it one day and I agree with PCGS, I look at it another day and I think it might be a SMS coin. I also have a 2003-P Kennedy half dollar that you would swear is a “Satin Finish” coin.
Has the “Satin Finish” coins been just one long nightmare to the major grading companies, if they were honest, I bet the answer would be yes. Would it be nice if the US Mint would put a unique die marker on all “Satin Finish” coins so they could easily be identified, yes.
The size of pebbles on the surface of a SF coin "surface granulation" are much smaller than a business strike. Early die business strikes have the surface granulation but the pebbles are much larger. I retained a mis-labled SF SHQ coin (actually a business strike) for my grading set to illustrate the point. If you had a nice granulated early business strike coin to put up against the penny above you could see what I mean.
The only satin finish coins in my collection are the SHQ since PCGS required them I collected them. If PCGS did not require them I would not have collected them. Far too common SF entombed by the millions in plastic for years to come unlike business strike coins that do not survive as well.... especially in this recession when people are cashing rolls and boxes and lose coin collections back in at the bank.
I also have a 1966 Kennedy half from my boy-hood collection. Got MS66 the first time and cracked out and resent got MS67 SMS the second time. I believe my coin a business strike and a solid MS67 but it appears PCGS cannot really tell either. The luster pattern on the 1966 half is business strike, no mirrored or super smooth surface like the SMS.... must be 1966 SMS with non-smooth non-mirrored surfaces as well or PCGS would not be inconsistent?
IMHO if the mint is going to apply special surfacing tecniques they should apply a seperate and distinct mint-mark.
If anyone really has the expertise to grade a 1966 kennedy half as business strike or SMS I would like to hear from them! Doug
I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like.
<< <i>What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I too recall asking for the 2005 and 2006 Business Strike only Mint set to be started as well. If I remember correctly the answer was we're getting to it.................. and still getting to it.........................
They sure have those Foreign sets getting added, probably 100 +++ since 12/09
<< <i>ambro51, mas3387, are you both intentionally/purposely missing my point??
Leo >>
Yes, I think you are right.
But your thesis is wrong.
<< <i> IMO, the EDS strikes the Satin Finish coins, from the newer dies were made for mint sets. And when a set of SF dies didn't produce the level of quality they wanted for the mint sets, all the lower quality coins were released for circulation. >>
Most coins released from the US Mint are struck and released before the Mint Sets are released to the public. The die state has nothing to do with a coin being “Satin Finish” or “Business Strike”, there are early and mid die state for each. I’m not sure if the Mint allows the Proof or Satin Finish dies to progress to a late die state before they replace them. I have not seen a late die state Proof of Satin Finish coin dated after 2003.
Do some of the “Satin Finish” coins have the same characteristics as “Business Strikes”, heck yes and the same is true for the opposite. Just like some of the 1965 SMS coins can have a “Business Strike” appearance. I have a 1966 PCGS MS67 Kennedy half dollar that my dad purchased from a member here on these boards, PCGS says it is a “Business Strike”, I look at it one day and I agree with PCGS, I look at it another day and I think it might be a SMS coin. I also have a 2003-P Kennedy half dollar that you would swear is a “Satin Finish” coin.
Has the “Satin Finish” coins been just one long nightmare to the major grading companies, if they were honest, I bet the answer would be yes. Would it be nice if the US Mint would put a unique die marker on all “Satin Finish” coins so they could easily be identified, yes.
JMHO >>
Thank you for a most informative post.
Could they have made both the SF and BS strikes before retiring a set of dies? And is it possible that they held back the SF coins while releasing the circulation coins/business strikes?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>The size of pebbles on the surface of a SF coin "surface granulation" are much smaller than a business strike. Early die business strikes have the surface granulation but the pebbles are much larger. I retained a mis-labled SF SHQ coin (actually a business strike) for my grading set to illustrate the point. If you had a nice granulated early business strike coin to put up against the penny above you could see what I mean.
The only satin finish coins in my collection are the SHQ since PCGS required them I collected them. If PCGS did not require them I would not have collected them. Far too common SF entombed by the millions in plastic for years to come unlike business strike coins that do not survive as well.... especially in this recession when people are cashing rolls and boxes and lose coin collections back in at the bank.
I also have a 1966 Kennedy half from my boy-hood collection. Got MS66 the first time and cracked out and resent got MS67 SMS the second time. I believe my coin a business strike and a solid MS67 but it appears PCGS cannot really tell either. The luster pattern on the 1966 half is business strike, no mirrored or super smooth surface like the SMS.... must be 1966 SMS with non-smooth non-mirrored surfaces as well or PCGS would not be inconsistent?
IMHO if the mint is going to apply special surfacing tecniques they should apply a seperate and distinct mint-mark.
If anyone really has the expertise to grade a 1966 kennedy half as business strike or SMS I would like to hear from them! Doug >>
The size of pebbles on the surface of a SF coin "surface granulation" are much smaller than a business strike.
I apologize but you lost me on the very first line. I have always been under the impression that the "pebble" effect was larger on the SF and not at all for the business strike.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I have not read anything on "chrome" plated dies for the exception of this thread. But if they were, I wouldn't suspect they would have a better strike or one that is equal to the EDS strikes of the SF coins. And I am referring to all the denominations that were manufactured from 2005 to 2010.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I have not read anything on "chrome" plated dies for the exception of this thread. But if they were, I wouldn't suspect they would have a better strike or one that is equal to the EDS strikes of the SF coins. And I am referring to all the denominations that were manufactured from 2005 to 2010.
>>
The artical I read claimed the coating makes the surface more durable.
Mint set quality varies significantly from year to year as they often make several changes at the beginning of the year. Apparently 2005 was a rather remarkable year.
I believe they're still usingf retired mint set dies to stike circulation coins on the regular presses. I was looking at a lightly worn '07-D with a slight satin appearance when I found this thread. I've seen this on a few states coins as well. With the very low mintyages it might show up on quite a high percentage of them.
<< <i>I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I have not read anything on "chrome" plated dies for the exception of this thread. But if they were, I wouldn't suspect they would have a better strike or one that is equal to the EDS strikes of the SF coins. And I am referring to all the denominations that were manufactured from 2005 to 2010.
>>
The artical I read claimed the coating makes the surface more durable.
Mint set quality varies significantly from year to year as they often make several changes at the beginning of the year. Apparently 2005 was a rather remarkable year.
I believe they're still usingf retired mint set dies to stike circulation coins on the regular presses. I was looking at a lightly worn '07-D with a slight satin appearance when I found this thread. I've seen this on a few states coins as well. With the very low mintyages it might show up on quite a high percentage of them. >>
Did you get your info from the following article?
New finish on 2005 uncirculated sets
When the 2005 U.S. Mint Uncirculated Coin Set is released May 31, it’ll have a different finish. A new satin finish has been applied to the 22-coin set for the first time ever and Mint officials believe customers will notice the difference. “With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.” The launch date for the set was pushed back from April 11 to May 31 to make sure the finish was perfected. Still, the release of the 2005 uncirculated set, priced at $16.95, comes three weeks earlier than the 2004 release date. “We expect the satin finish uncirculated set to be very popular and we are prepared to respond to an increased demand,” said Eskridge. The new satin finish will be applied to future uncirculated coin sets, uncirculated commemorative coins and uncirculated silver American Eagles. The Mint hopes the new finish will provide consistency for those products and help collectors differentiate between uncirculated coins in the U.S. Mint’s uncirculated coin sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never been circulated. The new finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life. The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set. According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image. Included in the set are specially struck uncirculated pieces of each of the circulating coin denominations manufactured at Denver and Philadelphia. It also has four 2005 nickels from the Westward Journey Nickel series with the new portrait of President Thomas Jefferson.
And in another article, I found it interesting that the coining pressure can be lowered to extend the life of a die as well but the results are LDS strikes. Was this a practice at the US Mint that resulted in all the LDS coins from the 1950's?
Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i> Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off? >>
Leo,
I’m not sure if it is safe to assume the point you are trying to make. Remember what they say about when you assume something, it makes an ASS – U – ME.
Standard verbiage from the US Mint web site, “These coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature the satin finish introduced in 2005.” I can’t imagine the US Mint removing the dies from one press and using them on another to strike regular coins to be released to the public when it would be easier to just sign out a new set of dies.
Are there Satin Finish coins in circulation? In all probability yes, but I doubt they were released in circulation by the US Mint. I would speculate that several “makers” of high grade slabbed coins take the extra coins from the Mint sets that don’t “make the grade” to their local Coin Star machine to get at least face value out of them. Heck, I have even gotten proof coins back in change before.
I’m not sure what Clackamas is referring too, all of the coins I have looked out, I have never found a “business strike” coin with a marker that matched up with a “Satin Finish” coin still in the sealed Mint Set(i.e. die crack, cud, gouge, polish marks or die chips).
You might want to PM a forum member, Mr. Weinberg, and ask him. Mr. Weinberg probably knows more about the minting process then most US Mint employees and I’m not trying to be disrespectful to any of the US Mint employees either.
<< <i> Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off? >>
Leo,
I’m not sure if it is safe to assume the point you are trying to make. Remember what they say about when you assume something, it makes an ASS – U – ME.
Standard verbiage from the US Mint web site, “These coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature the satin finish introduced in 2005.” I can’t imagine the US Mint removing the dies from one press and using them on another to strike regular coins to be released to the public when it would be easier to just sign out a new set of dies. >>
While the pressures used to strike the many different coins are adjustable on the coining press machines, it's possible, I guess, the pressure is not adjustable with the special coin presses. The definitions I posted from the US Mint's glossary, did not mention these special presses.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
When the 2005 U.S. Mint Uncirculated Coin Set is released May 31, it’ll have a different finish. A new satin finish has been applied to the 22-coin set for the first time ever and Mint officials believe customers will notice the difference. “With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.” The launch date for the set was pushed back from April 11 to May 31 to make sure the finish was perfected. Still, the release of the 2005 uncirculated set, priced at $16.95, comes three weeks earlier than the 2004 release date. “We expect the satin finish uncirculated set to be very popular and we are prepared to respond to an increased demand,” said Eskridge. The new satin finish will be applied to future uncirculated coin sets, uncirculated commemorative coins and uncirculated silver American Eagles. The Mint hopes the new finish will provide consistency for those products and help collectors differentiate between uncirculated coins in the U.S. Mint’s uncirculated coin sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never been circulated. The new finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life. The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set. According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image. Included in the set are specially struck uncirculated pieces of each of the circulating coin denominations manufactured at Denver and Philadelphia. It also has four 2005 nickels from the Westward Journey Nickel series with the new portrait of President Thomas Jefferson. >>
Yes. I believe that is exactly the article I read.
<< <i> And in another article, I found it interesting that the coining pressure can be lowered to extend the life of a die as well but the results are LDS strikes. Was this a practice at the US Mint that resulted in all the LDS coins from the 1950's?
Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off? >>
I believe you're overthinking this. LDS is caused by worn dies whether they wore very fast due to improper annealing or a very large number of strikes. Lower die pressure simply allows more strikes before the wear accumulates.
Mint set dies have been specially prepared and the coins specially struck since 1965. After dies strike about 30,000 mint set coins they are usually removed from these special presses and handled as regular dies. They will simply be used in the quasd presses to make regular business strikes at normal pressures and speeds.
I have some doubt that the chrome plating wears much if any more slowly than the regular steel. But so long as it's intact it will majke the coins appear SF. I haven't been paying enough attention to the mint sets in the last few years to have an opinion on whether or not die life has changed but suspect it's not much changed.
The number of slightly SF coins in circulation is suggestive to me that these are being struck in significant num- bers by retired mint set dies on the production floor. My sample size is small enough that I might be wrong.
When the 2005 U.S. Mint Uncirculated Coin Set is released May 31, it’ll have a different finish. A new satin finish has been applied to the 22-coin set for the first time ever and Mint officials believe customers will notice the difference. “With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.” The launch date for the set was pushed back from April 11 to May 31 to make sure the finish was perfected. Still, the release of the 2005 uncirculated set, priced at $16.95, comes three weeks earlier than the 2004 release date. “We expect the satin finish uncirculated set to be very popular and we are prepared to respond to an increased demand,” said Eskridge. The new satin finish will be applied to future uncirculated coin sets, uncirculated commemorative coins and uncirculated silver American Eagles. The Mint hopes the new finish will provide consistency for those products and help collectors differentiate between uncirculated coins in the U.S. Mint’s uncirculated coin sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never been circulated. The new finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life. The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set. According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image. Included in the set are specially struck uncirculated pieces of each of the circulating coin denominations manufactured at Denver and Philadelphia. It also has four 2005 nickels from the Westward Journey Nickel series with the new portrait of President Thomas Jefferson. >>
Yes. I believe that is exactly the article I read.
<< <i> And in another article, I found it interesting that the coining pressure can be lowered to extend the life of a die as well but the results are LDS strikes. Was this a practice at the US Mint that resulted in all the LDS coins from the 1950's?
Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off? >>
I believe you're overthinking this. LDS is caused by worn dies whether they wore very fast due to improper annealing or a very large number of strikes. Lower die pressure simply allows more strikes before the wear accumulates.
I couldn't have said all that better. LDS, in this case, stands for Later Die State.
Mint set dies have been specially prepared and the coins specially struck since 1965. After dies strike about 30,000 mint set coins they are usually removed from these special presses and handled as regular dies. They will simply be used in the quasd presses to make regular business strikes at normal pressures and speeds.
The ratio of 30,000 SF coins would translate to 1,200,000 BS coins per set of dies. That number appears too high. Based on 1 million mint sets. 15,000 SF coins would equal 600,000 BS strikes per set of dies. And that number appears to be high as well. Not too important.
I have some doubt that the chrome plating wears much if any more slowly than the regular steel. But so long as it's intact it will majke the coins appear SF. I haven't been paying enough attention to the mint sets in the last few years to have an opinion on whether or not die life has changed but suspect it's not much changed.
All my 40+ rolls of 2005 and 2006, the roll end coins all have some degree of satin finish remaining on the surfaces. Of course this small number doesn't compare to what the market makers have seen. But I have one roll that doesn't show satin finish end coins.
The number of slightly SF coins in circulation is suggestive to me that these are being struck in significant num- bers by retired mint set dies on the production floor. My sample size is small enough that I might be wrong. >>
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
There has been a lot of speculation whether a distinction can be made between a satin finish (SF) coin and a coin that was struck for circulation. Many collectors refer to the circulating coin as the business strike (BS). Long before the introduction of the SF coin, the only two coins we had to make a distinction with were the proof coins and the circulating/BS coins. While this debate includes all denominations, for the Jefferson nickel series, both coins for most of the years 1938 to 2004 were easily distinguishable from the other, usually the depth of mirrors on the proofs and the strength of luster for the BS coins.
But in 2005, the US MINT changed all that with the creation of satin finish coins. From an excerpt taken out of an Numismatic News article by Peter Lindblad, it was said, “The new (satin) finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life.” And the surfaces are describes as, “With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.” Other descriptive verbiage in the article included, “The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set.” And, “According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image.”
So what’s the single word that best describes the satin finish look? Diffused? Frosty? Glossy? Lustrous? Sparkling? Satin? It seems that there is need for a better term for the new coins. The “Velvety” coins? At least we could have said, “the surfaces of the new velvety coins have a satin finish look about them.” Whatever term is used, it must be different from those used to describe proofs and BS coins. And a distinction must be accepted, declared and upheld by all parties if we are to continue the recognition of 3 separate artistic coins. Each product must be distinguishable by its own individual aesthetic visual differences if they are to be collectiable.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
This discussion is only intended to pertain to the business strikes from 2005 to 2008 SHQ that I am an expert on.
Prior to 2005 a mint set coin was considered a business strike but the mint set coins had smoother surfaces due to the way the dies were prepared. Hence you can get an early stirke mint set coin prior to 2005 with extremely smooth surfaces and no granulation pebbles. If you look thru mint sets for your business strike SHQ the nice early strikes have smooth surfaces. Since that was not possible for 2005 - 2008 business strikes (only bag and roll coins allowed) you will see early stirkes have surface pebble granulation. Coins are still exceedingly nice and will MS68 even after the pebbles are gone. Only the early strike roll and bag coins have the surface granualtion intact. Of the 18 or so ID-D in MS68 I found only a few had the surface granualtion pebbles intact.
I pulled out the OK-D graded by PCGS SF67.... only it was submitted for grading before the release of the mint sets hence it can not be from a left over SF die. It has all the surface granulation pebbles intact and it does look satiny but under magnification you can see the surface pelles are much larger than the SF.
Some of you thread contributors are very astute hence the following may seem too simple... but some of you may not know this.
Both business strike dies and the satin finish dies are all prepped by a form of sandblasting to the surface of the die. The SF chroming process would take place after the die was finsihed by sandblasting. The new SF surfaces of the die were blasted by a special mixture including glass beads as I recall from the various articles that created a more satiny appearance to the surface of the coin because of the smaller surface disturbance to the die. Dies are not polished like a proof coin, they are sandblasted.
The impression made to the die by the sand blasting process is the inverse of what appears on the surface of the coin. For example a sandblasted dimple in the die becomes surface granulation on the struck coin (changes from an "innie" on the die to an "outie" on the coin itself. The surface efect on the coin (not the die) is what I am calling the surface granulation.
My understanding it is the differeent mix of the actual sandblasted material that creates the different effect on the die hence the efect to the surface of the coin is also different.
The surface granulation on a newly struck satin finish coin is much smaller than the granulation on the business strike coins due to the material it is sandblasted with, hence more of a satiny sheen on the SF coin. If you magnify the surface of a SF coin you will see the sheen is created by the tiny surface granulation, lesser impressions to the surface of the die from the glass beads and special mix. Take a close look at the SF70 cent above at the thousands of surface granulation pebbles... very tiny.
The surface granulation does not last long on a business strike die hence only the early business strike coins have the granulated surface pebbles that can be confused in the appearance with the SF coins. As most of you may know I made the majority of the MS68 business stirke SHQ. The ones I selected for my personal collection have surface granulation from the early die strikes. The surface granulation pebbles are much larger on a business strike coin than a SF coin due to the sandblasting material used.
If any one has the ability to take a nice photo of my OK-D SF67 "he he" as a grading example PM me and I will send it to you. Would be nice to have that photo posted to illistrate the points.
Once a die has been overused and the surface granulation is gone there is no longer a satin finish effect to the coin but the crome may preserve it. I have seen a few SF coins in the mint sets with a die break or a crack along the bust (usually only see these on business strike coins) but the SF surfaces were still intact even though there was a die crack.
<< <i>And there you have it, well explained by man who has seen almost as many boxes / bags and mint sets as I.
I'm sure it still isn't enough though >>
mas3387,
IMHO you need to let it go. Leo is not trashing "crapping" on any of your auctions in this thread. I believe he is honestly trying to learn about the process on how they are minted in the modern uncirculated sets. I have even learned a few points from some of the answers given.
I still think it would be good for the hobby if the US Mint would put a unique marker or a small "SF" somewhere on the device of all coins issued in the current uncirculated sets so there would be no doubt about the origin of the coins.
I've been out all day, just getting back to the boards, haven't read everything.
Both business strike dies and the satin finish dies are all prepped by a form of sandblasting to the surface of the die.
I don't understand why they would sandblast the BS dies but, of course, this would explain the lighter pebble effect on the BS 2005 to 2010. While the 2003-P Jeffs take on a satin look, the 2004 coins do not. And why would they strike a +/-million satin finish coins for the mint sets and have no further use for those dies? They've been chrome plated so they got to be in great shape. The business strikes that I've seen do not look as if they were struck with dies that were prepared in the same way for the 2004 coins. I would like to know what sources you have gathered your information from so I can study those results as well.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
This has been quite a difficult thread to follow, and make sense of.
I know this may be apples and oranges, but here is a very good example of exactly what die wear has done to this particular die, which is well known to gold dollar collectors.
The first coin is the 1873 closed 3. This was the first 'version' of the 1873 struck, and after objections by the Mint director as to the shape of the 3 in the date...and how the balls of the numeral were so close together it looked like an 8......a new reverse was prepared and striking continued. While the exact numbers are unknown, Breen states that only 1800 pieces were struck (based on Harry X Boosels research). The die then continued on, with the open 3 reverse, with a mintage total of about 120,000 more coins. While there may have been other open 3 obverses used, this one...the same one used on the closed 3, constitutes a large number of that years production. The die is known by the the vertical scratch that runs up the neck.
So, we see the die started as smooth, nearly prooflike, and later in its life eroded and changed into a die which produced a coin which is nearly lusterless...in fact, somewhat granular in appearance. Very much the opposite of what is suggested here, in that a rough die smooths out., here we see that a smooth die becomes rough.
Just back in the U.S. from a long and wonderful family vacation. Can anyone summarize what the latest issue is that resulted in this thread getting interesting again?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Leo: A question for you. Even if the difference between the business strike 2010 nickel in MS68FS grade (found in a roll let's say) and the Satin Finish version (which I have not even seen yet from the SF Mint Set) is very slight (again, just a hypothetical question) ... how is this terribly different from say an 1880 Shield Nickel in MS65 grade that trades for $50,000+ vs. a PR65 that trades for hundreds of dollars? In the case of the Shield nickel, there was constant debate for years (perhaps decades) on whether this die or that die produced the true business strike coins or not. Experts at times argued whether this coin or that coin graded MS65 by the services was truly a business strike vs. a proof. In some cases, the BS and Proof coins appeared to have very slight differences between them (I was shown many). Yet, the "business strikes" traded for upwards of $50,000 vs. a few hundred dollars for the proofs (and still do). What is the real difference (besides the $50,000 price tag) between that 130 year old nickel and this year's nickel even if the difference between the BS and SF is slight for 2010? Let's enjoy a nice, friendly debate.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Well, I certainly don't believe we should be using stereoscopes to see the differences between SF strikes and BS. I also don't think we'll ever know the answer until we hear a full synopsis from the US Mint (which I'm currently working on but doubt that I'll ever get an answer) on how the business strikes of today are produced. All the information I have are the two US Mint glossary definitions and a report from someone out of a NN periodical. And, of course, what I've been seeing from photos and in hand with what coins I have. Furthermore, I usually look for the deepest mirrors and possibly the frostiest devices when I search the proofs. Same goes for the business strikes, the most lustrous, deepest struck, hopefully as close to prooflike as my search will reward me. And as for the SF coins, they are a perfected coin, how can anyone screw that one up? Buy my argument is that if the business strikes are nothing more than a water-down product from used SF dies, why collect them? It certainly doesn't make any sense to collect two coins, a SF and a supposedly BS that look the same (edited to add) with an unaided eye.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Also, why hasn't PCGS allowed the BS of 2005 to 2010 into all the registry sets of the Jefferson nickels. They have been added to the variety sets......as a variety? Isn't this one of the questions raised at the beginning of this thread? Surely they must know something, have reasons for their stance on the matter. And we all know how everyone here is so dependent on PCGS's opinion. If they don't have enough info or can't make much of a difference between the two coins, perhaps they have acted accordingly, disallowing BS coins, a sense in all likelyhood, they don't really exist.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Comments
39034 Idaho P MS67 = 68 / 3 higher
That was a holdering mistake. They were D's and have since been fixed, so the ID-P 68 has not been made yet. We've been at it for a while, but a very difficult coin to put in a 68 holder. I believe we have searched about 14,000 coins and didn't make very many 67s.
Edited to add:
The pop report will likely be fixed very soon.
The Wyoming D MS68 on the pop report is no mistake though.
<< <i>That was a holdering mistake. They were D's and have since been fixed, so the ID-P 68 has not been made yet. We've been at it for a while, but a very difficult coin to put in a 68 holder. I believe we have searched about 14,000 coins and didn't make very many 67s. >>
Sounds like I need to step up and make this one
As you well know these coins are not easily found. It is such a rush when you find a gem coin, the hunt continues.
Well, as soon as I clear this 2007 Satin Finish search off my desk.
Wondercoin
So, PLEASE - try to find the next 2007 SF error in the pop report (and the couple issues that are there now have already been reported)so we can test this new system guys!!
Wondercoin
WS
Wondercoin
Dan
">Franklin Halves
">Kennedy Halves
<< <i>Thanks Seth. I know we can depend on you. Regards, dr >>
I was told that this was fixed, but I just checked and the (3) ID-P 68s are still showing. I'm going to follow up on this again so they'll hopefully fix it a little more timely.
Edit: Seth and I responded at the same time so I did not se his repsonse before posting mine. He is on top of that ID-P error with no prompting from me!
uncirculated:
The term "uncirculated" may have three different meanings when applied to a coin.
• First, it can refer to the particular manufacturing process by which a coin is made.
• Second, it can be used as a grade when referring to a coin's degree of preservation and quality of the strike.
• Or third, "uncirculated" can point to the fact that a coin has not been used in everyday commerce.
At the United States Mint, we use the term uncirculated when referring to the special coining process used to make the coin, which gives it a satin finish. Uncirculated coins are manufactured using the same process as circulating coins, but with quality enhancements such as slightly higher coining force, early strikes from dies, special cleaning after stamping, and special packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections.
Uncirculated.
Uncirculated coins are struck like circulating coins, but with higher force, newer dies, special cleaning after stamping, and Mylar® packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections as described below.
IMO, the EDS strikes the Satin Finish coins, from the newer dies were made for mint sets. And when a set of SF dies didn't produce the level of quality they wanted for the mint sets, all the lower quality coins were released for circulation.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Nice !!!!
Looks Business Strike to me , LOL
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>ambro51, mas3387, are you both intentionally/purposely missing my point??
Leo >>
Yes, I think you are right.
But your thesis is wrong.
<< <i> IMO, the EDS strikes the Satin Finish coins, from the newer dies were made for mint sets. And when a set of SF dies didn't produce the level of quality they wanted for the mint sets, all the lower quality coins were released for circulation. >>
Most coins released from the US Mint are struck and released before the Mint Sets are released to the public. The die state has nothing to do with a coin being “Satin Finish” or “Business Strike”, there are early and mid die state for each. I’m not sure if the Mint allows the Proof or Satin Finish dies to progress to a late die state before they replace them. I have not seen a late die state Proof of Satin Finish coin dated after 2003.
Do some of the “Satin Finish” coins have the same characteristics as “Business Strikes”, heck yes and the same is true for the opposite. Just like some of the 1965 SMS coins can have a “Business Strike” appearance. I have a 1966 PCGS MS67 Kennedy half dollar that my dad purchased from a member here on these boards, PCGS says it is a “Business Strike”, I look at it one day and I agree with PCGS, I look at it another day and I think it might be a SMS coin. I also have a 2003-P Kennedy half dollar that you would swear is a “Satin Finish” coin.
Has the “Satin Finish” coins been just one long nightmare to the major grading companies, if they were honest, I bet the answer would be yes. Would it be nice if the US Mint would put a unique die marker on all “Satin Finish” coins so they could easily be identified, yes.
JMHO
The only satin finish coins in my collection are the SHQ since PCGS required them I collected them. If PCGS did not require them I would not have collected them. Far too common SF entombed by the millions in plastic for years to come unlike business strike coins that do not survive as well.... especially in this recession when people are cashing rolls and boxes and lose coin collections back in at the bank.
I also have a 1966 Kennedy half from my boy-hood collection. Got MS66 the first time and cracked out and resent got MS67 SMS the second time. I believe my coin a business strike and a solid MS67 but it appears PCGS cannot really tell either. The luster pattern on the 1966 half is business strike, no mirrored or super smooth surface like the SMS.... must be 1966 SMS with non-smooth non-mirrored surfaces as well or PCGS would not be inconsistent?
IMHO if the mint is going to apply special surfacing tecniques they should apply a seperate and distinct mint-mark.
If anyone really has the expertise to grade a 1966 kennedy half as business strike or SMS I would like to hear from them! Doug
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like.
<< <i>What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I too recall asking for the 2005 and 2006 Business Strike only Mint set to be started as well. If I remember correctly the answer was we're getting to it.................. and still getting to it.........................
They sure have those Foreign sets getting added, probably 100 +++ since 12/09
<< <i>
<< <i>ambro51, mas3387, are you both intentionally/purposely missing my point??
Leo >>
Yes, I think you are right.
But your thesis is wrong.
<< <i> IMO, the EDS strikes the Satin Finish coins, from the newer dies were made for mint sets. And when a set of SF dies didn't produce the level of quality they wanted for the mint sets, all the lower quality coins were released for circulation. >>
Most coins released from the US Mint are struck and released before the Mint Sets are released to the public. The die state has nothing to do with a coin being “Satin Finish” or “Business Strike”, there are early and mid die state for each. I’m not sure if the Mint allows the Proof or Satin Finish dies to progress to a late die state before they replace them. I have not seen a late die state Proof of Satin Finish coin dated after 2003.
Do some of the “Satin Finish” coins have the same characteristics as “Business Strikes”, heck yes and the same is true for the opposite. Just like some of the 1965 SMS coins can have a “Business Strike” appearance. I have a 1966 PCGS MS67 Kennedy half dollar that my dad purchased from a member here on these boards, PCGS says it is a “Business Strike”, I look at it one day and I agree with PCGS, I look at it another day and I think it might be a SMS coin. I also have a 2003-P Kennedy half dollar that you would swear is a “Satin Finish” coin.
Has the “Satin Finish” coins been just one long nightmare to the major grading companies, if they were honest, I bet the answer would be yes. Would it be nice if the US Mint would put a unique die marker on all “Satin Finish” coins so they could easily be identified, yes.
JMHO >>
Thank you for a most informative post.
Could they have made both the SF and BS strikes before retiring a set of dies? And is it possible that they held back the SF coins while releasing the circulation coins/business strikes?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>The size of pebbles on the surface of a SF coin "surface granulation" are much smaller than a business strike. Early die business strikes have the surface granulation but the pebbles are much larger. I retained a mis-labled SF SHQ coin (actually a business strike) for my grading set to illustrate the point. If you had a nice granulated early business strike coin to put up against the penny above you could see what I mean.
The only satin finish coins in my collection are the SHQ since PCGS required them I collected them. If PCGS did not require them I would not have collected them. Far too common SF entombed by the millions in plastic for years to come unlike business strike coins that do not survive as well.... especially in this recession when people are cashing rolls and boxes and lose coin collections back in at the bank.
I also have a 1966 Kennedy half from my boy-hood collection. Got MS66 the first time and cracked out and resent got MS67 SMS the second time. I believe my coin a business strike and a solid MS67 but it appears PCGS cannot really tell either. The luster pattern on the 1966 half is business strike, no mirrored or super smooth surface like the SMS.... must be 1966 SMS with non-smooth non-mirrored surfaces as well or PCGS would not be inconsistent?
IMHO if the mint is going to apply special surfacing tecniques they should apply a seperate and distinct mint-mark.
If anyone really has the expertise to grade a 1966 kennedy half as business strike or SMS I would like to hear from them! Doug >>
The size of pebbles on the surface of a SF coin "surface granulation" are much smaller than a business strike.
I apologize but you lost me on the very first line. I have always been under the impression that the "pebble" effect was larger on the SF and not at all for the business strike.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I have not read anything on "chrome" plated dies for the exception of this thread. But if they were, I wouldn't suspect they would have a better strike or one that is equal to the EDS strikes of the SF coins. And I am referring to all the denominations that were manufactured from 2005 to 2010.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I have not read anything on "chrome" plated dies for the exception of this thread. But if they were, I wouldn't suspect they would have a better strike or one that is equal to the EDS strikes of the SF coins. And I am referring to all the denominations that were manufactured from 2005 to 2010.
>>
The artical I read claimed the coating makes the surface more durable.
Mint set quality varies significantly from year to year as they often make
several changes at the beginning of the year. Apparently 2005 was a
rather remarkable year.
I believe they're still usingf retired mint set dies to stike circulation coins
on the regular presses. I was looking at a lightly worn '07-D with a slight
satin appearance when I found this thread. I've seen this on a few states
coins as well. With the very low mintyages it might show up on quite a high
percentage of them.
<< <i> a business strike will have smooth, mirror-like surfaces. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I remember reading somewhere that the SF dies were treated/coated in chrome. You can often see it on the coins has the chrome starts to flatten out, they are different dies. I have searched countless of each, and there can be coins similar but they are not the same, the dies are different.
What irks me is the PCGS waffle on sets. PCGS has sets for Business strikes and SF coins, but not for 2005 or 2006. They leave out these two years because they are too lazy to figure out what to do. Meanwhile they come up with even more esoteric sets that 3 people on the planet like. >>
I have not read anything on "chrome" plated dies for the exception of this thread. But if they were, I wouldn't suspect they would have a better strike or one that is equal to the EDS strikes of the SF coins. And I am referring to all the denominations that were manufactured from 2005 to 2010.
>>
The artical I read claimed the coating makes the surface more durable.
Mint set quality varies significantly from year to year as they often make
several changes at the beginning of the year. Apparently 2005 was a
rather remarkable year.
I believe they're still usingf retired mint set dies to stike circulation coins
on the regular presses. I was looking at a lightly worn '07-D with a slight
satin appearance when I found this thread. I've seen this on a few states
coins as well. With the very low mintyages it might show up on quite a high
percentage of them. >>
Did you get your info from the following article?
New finish on 2005 uncirculated sets
When the 2005 U.S. Mint Uncirculated Coin Set is released May 31, it’ll have a different finish.
A new satin finish has been applied to the 22-coin set for the first time ever and Mint officials believe customers will notice the difference.
“With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.”
The launch date for the set was pushed back from April 11 to May 31 to make sure the finish was perfected. Still, the release of the 2005 uncirculated set, priced at $16.95, comes three weeks earlier than the 2004 release date.
“We expect the satin finish uncirculated set to be very popular and we are prepared to respond to an increased demand,” said Eskridge.
The new satin finish will be applied to future uncirculated coin sets, uncirculated commemorative coins and uncirculated silver American Eagles.
The Mint hopes the new finish will provide consistency for those products and help collectors differentiate between uncirculated coins in the U.S. Mint’s uncirculated coin sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never been circulated.
The new finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life.
The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set.
According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image.
Included in the set are specially struck uncirculated pieces of each of the circulating coin denominations manufactured at Denver and Philadelphia. It also has four 2005 nickels from the Westward Journey Nickel series with the new portrait of President Thomas Jefferson.
And in another article, I found it interesting that the coining pressure can be lowered to extend the life of a die as well but the results are LDS strikes. Was this a practice at the US Mint that resulted in all the LDS coins from the 1950's?
Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i> Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off? >>
Leo,
I’m not sure if it is safe to assume the point you are trying to make. Remember what they say about when you assume something, it makes an ASS – U – ME.
Standard verbiage from the US Mint web site, “These coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature the satin finish introduced in 2005.” I can’t imagine the US Mint removing the dies from one press and using them on another to strike regular coins to be released to the public when it would be easier to just sign out a new set of dies.
Are there Satin Finish coins in circulation? In all probability yes, but I doubt they were released in circulation by the US Mint. I would speculate that several “makers” of high grade slabbed coins take the extra coins from the Mint sets that don’t “make the grade” to their local Coin Star machine to get at least face value out of them. Heck, I have even gotten proof coins back in change before.
I’m not sure what Clackamas is referring too, all of the coins I have looked out, I have never found a “business strike” coin with a marker that matched up with a “Satin Finish” coin still in the sealed Mint Set(i.e. die crack, cud, gouge, polish marks or die chips).
You might want to PM a forum member, Mr. Weinberg, and ask him. Mr. Weinberg probably knows more about the minting process then most US Mint employees and I’m not trying to be disrespectful to any of the US Mint employees either.
<< <i>
<< <i> Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off? >>
Leo,
I’m not sure if it is safe to assume the point you are trying to make. Remember what they say about when you assume something, it makes an ASS – U – ME.
Standard verbiage from the US Mint web site, “These coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature the satin finish introduced in 2005.” I can’t imagine the US Mint removing the dies from one press and using them on another to strike regular coins to be released to the public when it would be easier to just sign out a new set of dies. >>
While the pressures used to strike the many different coins are adjustable on the coining press machines, it's possible, I guess, the pressure is not adjustable with the special coin presses. The definitions I posted from the US Mint's glossary, did not mention these special presses.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
Did you get your info from the following article?
New finish on 2005 uncirculated sets
When the 2005 U.S. Mint Uncirculated Coin Set is released May 31, it’ll have a different finish.
A new satin finish has been applied to the 22-coin set for the first time ever and Mint officials believe customers will notice the difference.
“With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.”
The launch date for the set was pushed back from April 11 to May 31 to make sure the finish was perfected. Still, the release of the 2005 uncirculated set, priced at $16.95, comes three weeks earlier than the 2004 release date.
“We expect the satin finish uncirculated set to be very popular and we are prepared to respond to an increased demand,” said Eskridge.
The new satin finish will be applied to future uncirculated coin sets, uncirculated commemorative coins and uncirculated silver American Eagles.
The Mint hopes the new finish will provide consistency for those products and help collectors differentiate between uncirculated coins in the U.S. Mint’s uncirculated coin sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never been circulated.
The new finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life.
The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set.
According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image.
Included in the set are specially struck uncirculated pieces of each of the circulating coin denominations manufactured at Denver and Philadelphia. It also has four 2005 nickels from the Westward Journey Nickel series with the new portrait of President Thomas Jefferson. >>
Yes. I believe that is exactly the article I read.
<< <i>
And in another article, I found it interesting that the coining pressure can be lowered to extend the life of a die as well but the results are LDS strikes. Was this a practice at the US Mint that resulted in all the LDS coins from the 1950's?
Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off?
>>
I believe you're overthinking this. LDS is caused by worn dies whether they wore very fast due to improper
annealing or a very large number of strikes. Lower die pressure simply allows more strikes before the wear
accumulates.
Mint set dies have been specially prepared and the coins specially struck since 1965. After dies strike about
30,000 mint set coins they are usually removed from these special presses and handled as regular dies. They
will simply be used in the quasd presses to make regular business strikes at normal pressures and speeds.
I have some doubt that the chrome plating wears much if any more slowly than the regular steel. But so long
as it's intact it will majke the coins appear SF. I haven't been paying enough attention to the mint sets in the
last few years to have an opinion on whether or not die life has changed but suspect it's not much changed.
The number of slightly SF coins in circulation is suggestive to me that these are being struck in significant num-
bers by retired mint set dies on the production floor. My sample size is small enough that I might be wrong.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Did you get your info from the following article?
New finish on 2005 uncirculated sets
When the 2005 U.S. Mint Uncirculated Coin Set is released May 31, it’ll have a different finish.
A new satin finish has been applied to the 22-coin set for the first time ever and Mint officials believe customers will notice the difference.
“With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.”
The launch date for the set was pushed back from April 11 to May 31 to make sure the finish was perfected. Still, the release of the 2005 uncirculated set, priced at $16.95, comes three weeks earlier than the 2004 release date.
“We expect the satin finish uncirculated set to be very popular and we are prepared to respond to an increased demand,” said Eskridge.
The new satin finish will be applied to future uncirculated coin sets, uncirculated commemorative coins and uncirculated silver American Eagles.
The Mint hopes the new finish will provide consistency for those products and help collectors differentiate between uncirculated coins in the U.S. Mint’s uncirculated coin sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never been circulated.
The new finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life.
The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set.
According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image.
Included in the set are specially struck uncirculated pieces of each of the circulating coin denominations manufactured at Denver and Philadelphia. It also has four 2005 nickels from the Westward Journey Nickel series with the new portrait of President Thomas Jefferson. >>
Yes. I believe that is exactly the article I read.
<< <i>
And in another article, I found it interesting that the coining pressure can be lowered to extend the life of a die as well but the results are LDS strikes. Was this a practice at the US Mint that resulted in all the LDS coins from the 1950's?
Back to the chrome plating of the dies to extend the life of or as cladking said, to make the dies "more durable", I was aware that the satin finish effect was the result from sandblasting but I didn't know that they were chrome plating the dies and sandblasting the chrome. Which leads into what Clackamas said in his post. Are we to assume that used SF dies were used to strike the business strikes until the chrome plating wore off?
>>
I believe you're overthinking this. LDS is caused by worn dies whether they wore very fast due to improper
annealing or a very large number of strikes. Lower die pressure simply allows more strikes before the wear
accumulates.
I couldn't have said all that better. LDS, in this case, stands for Later Die State.
Mint set dies have been specially prepared and the coins specially struck since 1965. After dies strike about
30,000 mint set coins they are usually removed from these special presses and handled as regular dies. They
will simply be used in the quasd presses to make regular business strikes at normal pressures and speeds.
The ratio of 30,000 SF coins would translate to 1,200,000 BS coins per set of dies. That number appears too high. Based on 1 million mint sets. 15,000 SF coins would equal 600,000 BS strikes per set of dies. And that number appears to be high as well. Not too important.
I have some doubt that the chrome plating wears much if any more slowly than the regular steel. But so long
as it's intact it will majke the coins appear SF. I haven't been paying enough attention to the mint sets in the
last few years to have an opinion on whether or not die life has changed but suspect it's not much changed.
All my 40+ rolls of 2005 and 2006, the roll end coins all have some degree of satin finish remaining on the surfaces. Of course this small number doesn't compare to what the market makers have seen. But I have one roll that doesn't show satin finish end coins.
The number of slightly SF coins in circulation is suggestive to me that these are being struck in significant num-
bers by retired mint set dies on the production floor. My sample size is small enough that I might be wrong. >>
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
But in 2005, the US MINT changed all that with the creation of satin finish coins. From an excerpt taken out of an Numismatic News article by Peter Lindblad, it was said, “The new (satin) finish is achieved by striking blanks with chrome-plated dies. The dies are sandblasted by hand and then chrome plated to improve die life.” And the surfaces are describes as, “With the satin finish, the light is diffused on the coin surface. It’s sort of like looking through frosted glass,” said Gloria Eskridge, associate director of sales and marketing for the Mint. “On the other surface, it was reflected like a mirror.” Other descriptive verbiage in the article included, “The process is identical to the commemorative or silver American Eagle uncirculated manufacturing process, except the sand and bead mixture is slightly finer to achieve the frosting on the coin set.” And, “According to the Mint, this produces a more lustrous image.”
So what’s the single word that best describes the satin finish look? Diffused? Frosty? Glossy? Lustrous? Sparkling? Satin? It seems that there is need for a better term for the new coins. The “Velvety” coins? At least we could have said, “the surfaces of the new velvety coins have a satin finish look about them.” Whatever term is used, it must be different from those used to describe proofs and BS coins. And a distinction must be accepted, declared and upheld by all parties if we are to continue the recognition of 3 separate artistic coins. Each product must be distinguishable by its own individual aesthetic visual differences if they are to be collectiable.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Prior to 2005 a mint set coin was considered a business strike but the mint set coins had smoother surfaces due to the way the dies were prepared. Hence you can get an early stirke mint set coin prior to 2005 with extremely smooth surfaces and no granulation pebbles. If you look thru mint sets for your business strike SHQ the nice early strikes have smooth surfaces. Since that was not possible for 2005 - 2008 business strikes (only bag and roll coins allowed) you will see early stirkes have surface pebble granulation. Coins are still exceedingly nice and will MS68 even after the pebbles are gone. Only the early strike roll and bag coins have the surface granualtion intact. Of the 18 or so ID-D in MS68 I found only a few had the surface granualtion pebbles intact.
I pulled out the OK-D graded by PCGS SF67.... only it was submitted for grading before the release of the mint sets hence it can not be from a left over SF die. It has all the surface granulation pebbles intact and it does look satiny but under magnification you can see the surface pelles are much larger than the SF.
Some of you thread contributors are very astute hence the following may seem too simple... but some of you may not know this.
Both business strike dies and the satin finish dies are all prepped by a form of sandblasting to the surface of the die. The SF chroming process would take place after the die was finsihed by sandblasting. The new SF surfaces of the die were blasted by a special mixture including glass beads as I recall from the various articles that created a more satiny appearance to the surface of the coin because of the smaller surface disturbance to the die. Dies are not polished like a proof coin, they are sandblasted.
The impression made to the die by the sand blasting process is the inverse of what appears on the surface of the coin. For example a sandblasted dimple in the die becomes surface granulation on the struck coin (changes from an "innie" on the die to an "outie" on the coin itself. The surface efect on the coin (not the die) is what I am calling the surface granulation.
My understanding it is the differeent mix of the actual sandblasted material that creates the different effect on the die hence the efect to the surface of the coin is also different.
The surface granulation on a newly struck satin finish coin is much smaller than the granulation on the business strike coins due to the material it is sandblasted with, hence more of a satiny sheen on the SF coin. If you magnify the surface of a SF coin you will see the sheen is created by the tiny surface granulation, lesser impressions to the surface of the die from the glass beads and special mix. Take a close look at the SF70 cent above at the thousands of surface granulation pebbles... very tiny.
The surface granulation does not last long on a business strike die hence only the early business strike coins have the granulated surface pebbles that can be confused in the appearance with the SF coins. As most of you may know I made the majority of the MS68 business stirke SHQ. The ones I selected for my personal collection have surface granulation from the early die strikes. The surface granulation pebbles are much larger on a business strike coin than a SF coin due to the sandblasting material used.
If any one has the ability to take a nice photo of my OK-D SF67 "he he" as a grading example PM me and I will send it to you. Would be nice to have that photo posted to illistrate the points.
Once a die has been overused and the surface granulation is gone there is no longer a satin finish effect to the coin but the crome may preserve it. I have seen a few SF coins in the mint sets with a die break or a crack along the bust (usually only see these on business strike coins) but the SF surfaces were still intact even though there was a die crack.
Hope this helps. Doug Rall
I'm sure it still isn't enough though
<< <i>And there you have it, well explained by man who has seen almost as many boxes / bags and mint sets as I.
I'm sure it still isn't enough though
mas3387,
IMHO you need to let it go. Leo is not trashing "crapping" on any of your auctions in this thread. I believe he is honestly trying to learn about the process on how they are minted in the modern uncirculated sets. I have even learned a few points from some of the answers given.
I still think it would be good for the hobby if the US Mint would put a unique marker or a small "SF" somewhere on the device of all coins issued in the current uncirculated sets so there would be no doubt about the origin of the coins.
Just a thought,
Both business strike dies and the satin finish dies are all prepped by a form of sandblasting to the surface of the die.
I don't understand why they would sandblast the BS dies but, of course, this would explain the lighter pebble effect on the BS 2005 to 2010. While the 2003-P Jeffs take on a satin look, the 2004 coins do not. And why would they strike a +/-million satin finish coins for the mint sets and have no further use for those dies? They've been chrome plated so they got to be in great shape. The business strikes that I've seen do not look as if they were struck with dies that were prepared in the same way for the 2004 coins.
I would like to know what sources you have gathered your information from so I can study those results as well.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I know this may be apples and oranges, but here is a very good example of exactly what die wear has done to this particular die, which is well known to gold dollar collectors.
The first coin is the 1873 closed 3. This was the first 'version' of the 1873 struck, and after objections by the Mint director as to the shape of the 3 in the date...and how the balls of the numeral were so close together it looked like an 8......a new reverse was prepared and striking continued. While the exact numbers are unknown, Breen states that only 1800 pieces were struck (based on Harry X Boosels research). The die then continued on, with the open 3 reverse, with a mintage total of about 120,000 more coins. While there may have been other open 3 obverses used, this one...the same one used on the closed 3, constitutes a large number of that years production. The die is known by the the vertical scratch that runs up the neck.
So, we see the die started as smooth, nearly prooflike, and later in its life eroded and changed into a die which produced a coin which is nearly lusterless...in fact, somewhat granular in appearance. Very much the opposite of what is suggested here, in that a rough die smooths out., here we see that a smooth die becomes rough.
(both examples are graded MS)
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
Furthermore, I usually look for the deepest mirrors and possibly the frostiest devices when I search the proofs. Same goes for the business strikes, the most lustrous, deepest struck, hopefully as close to prooflike as my search will reward me. And as for the SF coins, they are a perfected coin, how can anyone screw that one up?
Buy my argument is that if the business strikes are nothing more than a water-down product from used SF dies, why collect them? It certainly doesn't make any sense to collect two coins, a SF and a supposedly BS that look the same (edited to add) with an unaided eye.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Wondercoin
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection