I was there today on line - about 20th or so in the line at 10;02am....right behind the first few individuals with early bird passes like mine. The others (about 17-18) ahead of us had dealer badges, so they were there earlier than 10am.
We waited the two hours and at 12 noon the orderly process started. Before public entry at noon, the early bird line swelled to about 150 or maybe a few more; as soon as 12 noon opening to public - the line got much larger.
Very orderly process, as described by other posts above, but only one checkout register so it took some time to get thru the line.
Some rumors of the USM having a certain qty available each day of the show, ranging from 200-500 coins - but this could not be confirmed.
They had to sell more that 300 coins by the time I left the show at 2:30pm and the line was still quite large.
I see in posts at around 6:15 pm they "sold out" at the US Mint booth--but that would mean they probably had about 500 coins avilable today. If there is any truth to the multiple day sales for the gold at the show - whoever is there tomorrow will have to report back.
One dealer came up to the line and annoucned a buy price of $300 over just before sales opened at noon - it didnt seem like anyone bit.
I did hear dealers buying in the $500 over range before I left the show at 2:30pm.
I bought a coin and so did my wife, one was submitted across the street for a sopecial SHOW label "First Day - Baltimore Show"; the other was submitted to PCGS for the FS Gold Flowing Hair label.
Amazing coin. Wanting one more and more the more I see them. Quick question though. Do graders still grade with bare hands? With these having a proof like smooth edge, I could clearly see fingerprints from him handlings the edge. That could be an issue.
@Liquidated said:
Keep getting error messages and waiting for approval to post so will try this again.
@jwitten said:
Amazing coin. Wanting one more and more the more I see them. Quick question though. Do graders still grade with bare hands? With these having a proof like smooth edge, I could clearly see fingerprints from him handlings the edge. That could be an issue.
While I cannot guarantee it is current, the PCGS FAQs indicate that the graders and sealers do not wear gloves.
Unless the mint has made major capacity upgrades, I'm just thinking there's no way they sold north of what must or should have been 10,000 coins 1 at a time in 3 minutes.
Anyone want to guess if mintage was in fact the 17,500 reported by Coinworld? Order sequence in the 4 mins period this morning amounts to around 7,000. If Baltimore sold 500 plus 10% bulk buyers assuming 17,500 max minted that would be 1750. 7k, 1.75k, 0.5k add up to sub 10k. Toss in 230 privys set aside might could stretch number to 10k. Granted if less than 17,500 were minted the assumed 10% bulk buyer qty would cut number lower. There is a noticeable gap I cant get to add up to the max mintage. Hopefully Tuesday will see sales.
@jwitten said:
Amazing coin. Wanting one more and more the more I see them. Quick question though. Do graders still grade with bare hands? With these having a proof like smooth edge, I could clearly see fingerprints from him handlings the edge. That could be an issue.
While I cannot guarantee it is current, the PCGS FAQs indicate that the graders and sealers do not wear gloves.
Back in 2020 at the height of the W quarters program I went to the FUN show in FL. Was able to attend the PCGS luncheon and afterwards talk to a PCGS grader who confirmed they do NOT wear gloves when handling a coin which shocked me.
In fact, he told me he personally handled very valuable coins without gloves. FWIW.....
@ProofCollection said:
Unless the mint has made major capacity upgrades, I'm just thinking there's no way they sold north of what must or should have been 10,000 coins 1 at a time in 3 minutes.
They don't sell them one at a time. They've sold as many as 200,000 coins in 10 or 15 minutes even 5 years ago. 10,000+ coins in 3 or 4 minutes is not an issue.
@Liquidated said:
Anyone want to guess if mintage was in fact the 17,500 reported by Coinworld? Order sequence in the 4 mins period this morning amounts to around 7,000. If Baltimore sold 500 plus 10% bulk buyers assuming 17,500 max minted that would be 1750. 7k, 1.75k, 0.5k add up to sub 10k. Toss in 230 privys set aside might could stretch number to 10k. Granted if less than 17,500 were minted the assumed 10% bulk buyer qty would cut number lower. There is a noticeable gap I cant get to add up to the max mintage. Hopefully Tuesday will see sales.
Or was 17,500. It was reported previously by not coin world that they were all struck.
We can't know that the lowest number was the first sale of the day or that the highest number was the last number. We didn't even have that many numbers.
@Goldminers said:
How can it be gone? 17,500 really? Where is @NJCoin opinion with this?
Sorry I got jammed up at work today, but I'm here now to take my figurative beating. 😀
I know some folks will be disappointed to see me say this, but I was WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!!!
I always said I'd admit when I was clearly wrong, and I was clearly wrong.
I can't really explain how I was so wrong, but I was wrong.
Either there is truly organic demand for this, basically at any price, or this is just a buying club creation reminiscent of the good 'ole days when the site was crashed by the bots, and many collectors found themselves shut out.
Truly inexplicable how 40K silver medals with a $3K+ lottery ticket lasted a day while these, at $3640, didn't last 5 minutes. Especially with everything dealers have been offering on eBay over the past week. I guess we'll see over the next week or so whether there is a strong secondary market for these, or whether the price collapses when everyone who scarfed them up has no one to sell to.
Either way, once again, I WAS WRONG!!! I truly thought these would last until at least noon tomorrow. After which we'd see whether there was an appetite for 17,500 gold coins priced over $1,000 above spot. Clearly, there is. At least today.
For anyone who missed out, happy hunting at 7:30 a.m. the next week or two.
Hopefully anyone who thought 230 privys would have a difficult time cracking $9K will also step up when the time comes and admit they were wrong. $20K+, for the least expensive PR 69, based on today's action.
@ProofCollection said:
Unless the mint has made major capacity upgrades, I'm just thinking there's no way they sold north of what must or should have been 10,000 coins 1 at a time in 3 minutes.
Last time I had to compete at the opening of an offering was 2011 with silver eagle 5 coin sets limited to 5 sets per household with a max mintage of maybe 100k. I managed to get 35 sets (7x5 set limit) and recall order window was open a few hours with multiple crashes. This morning no issues and at 12:01 my order was around 2000 above from the order number reported for a different item prior to window opening. This was a big upgrade from the Pitney Bowes days. It was smooth as silk.
@alefzero said:
How many of the total already were out to or reserved for the "special" customers who don't wait in line or have product limits?
I’m sure NJcoin will be along shortly to explain everything to everyone!!
Not much to explain. I was wrong. We'll learn soon enough why.
Either I, and the Mint, vastly underestimated organic demand for a $3640 one ounce gold coin with a mintage of 17,500, OR buying club buyers slammed the site at noon, and improved technology allowed them to clean out the Mint in 4 minutes without crashing the website.
TBD whether these take off from here or crash. That will depend on just who the buyers were, and whether those who missed out are going to feel the need to pay up in the secondary market.
The fact that advance buyers reduced the quantity available on the site from 17,500 to whatever really isn't the story, as some are speculating. Because, even if they took the 20% that they seemingly took with the sliver medals, that's still only 3500, leaving 14,000 for sale. Less whatever they allocated to Baltimore and the 3 Mint retail outlets.
@Goldminers said:
How can it be gone? 17,500 really? Where is @NJCoin opinion with this?
I look forward to his explanation of how they tricked him into being wrong.
Not this time. Just flat out wrong. Had a heads-up about buying clubs form the likes of @treybenedict, and didn't believe it. That's on me.
Now, let's see if they have people to sell to. If so, these are going to be home runs. Otherwise, this is a mirage, and people loading up at 7:30 a.m. are going to get hurt if gold doesn't go back up, and if 5,000 of these find their way to eBay over the next few weeks, with no takers at $4K+.
TBD. But today, I was wrong. After seeing free $3K+ lottery tickets easily available for 24 hours, never in a million years thought $3640 one ounce gold coins would sell out in 4 minutes.
@coiner said:
One dealer came up to the line and annoucned a buy price of $300 over just before sales opened at noon - it didnt seem like anyone bit.
I did hear dealers buying in the $500 over range before I left the show at 2:30pm.
I bought a coin and so did my wife, one was submitted across the street for a sopecial SHOW label "First Day - Baltimore Show"; the other was submitted to PCGS for the FS Gold Flowing Hair label.
I want that label. Do you recall the code for the special label FS Gold Flowing Hair? Have seen pics and is not listed on PCGS website. Called PCGS today and person talked to put me on hold and later said not aware of a special label for the gold.
@alefzero said:
How many of the total already were out to or reserved for the "special" customers who don't wait in line or have product limits?
I’m sure NJcoin will be along shortly to explain everything to everyone!!
The only people who don't wait in line are the ABPP buyers and they will report that number separately, so you'll know.
As before, I'm still not sure about that. If true, then advance buyers took down nearly 20% of the silver medals.
While regular bulk buyers got very little to none, since they were gone in 2 minutes. And bulk buyers who are not ABPP will be getting exactly zero of these, unless they got in line online or in Baltimore and got one.
It is strange how the silver medal version was up for 24 hours at 50k total until the HHL was lifted, and this gold version at 17.5k total was up for only three minutes. This probably ensures the silver medal prices will go higher from here, but the gold may peak under 5k. Anyone could buy 18 silver medals for one gold priced one. The only comparable I remember is the UHR gold at over 100,000 mintage that sold out and went higher. Maybe the demand is there like the UHR St Gaudens. I still think the silver is a better buy and would take 18 of those over 1 gold.
Many years ago we had a thread about investing in modern coins here and one of the caveats was the higher the price of gold went, the lower the mintages would become in a normal series. And that has continued to play out with the gold commemorative coins that are now selling at under 1500 in total for uncirc ( it also played out with the gold spouse series). It drives all past issues to melt as the demand is only there for less than 1500. I am surprised that the one ounce gold coins have not fallen the same as these other gold issues. I still think in the end many will have to use all these coins as melt value if our dollar collapses, but that is for another thread.
@HalfDime said:
It is strange how the silver medal version was up for 24 hours at 50k total until the HHL was lifted, and this gold version at 17.5k total was up for only three minutes. This probably ensures the silver medal prices will go higher from here, but the gold may peak under 5k. Anyone could buy 18 silver medals for one gold priced one. The only comparable I remember is the UHR gold at over 100,000 mintage that sold out and went higher. Maybe the demand is there like the UHR St Gaudens. I still think the silver is a better buy and would take 18 of those over 1 gold.
The big difference is the silver version is a medal but the gold version is a COIN. To many collectors that makes a big difference and therefore there is more demand for the gold coin vs. the silver medal.
@HalfDime said:
It is strange how the silver medal version was up for 24 hours at 50k total until the HHL was lifted, and this gold version at 17.5k total was up for only three minutes. This probably ensures the silver medal prices will go higher from here, but the gold may peak under 5k. Anyone could buy 18 silver medals for one gold priced one. The only comparable I remember is the UHR gold at over 100,000 mintage that sold out and went higher. Maybe the demand is there like the UHR St Gaudens. I still think the silver is a better buy and would take 18 of those over 1 gold.
The big difference is the silver version is a medal but the gold version is a COIN. To many collectors that makes a big difference and therefore there is more demand for the gold coin vs. the silver medal.
Yes, BIG difference. 🤣🤣🤣
50K silver medals containing around $30 worth of silver sold out in 2 minutes once the HHL was lifted, and they are selling for over 7x melt, and over 2x issue price, a month after release. They'd be worth SOOOOOOOO much more if they were coins. 🤣🤣🤣
Coin vs medal might make a difference with other things, but they haven't made even a little difference with these. Privy, non-privy. Silver, gold. Medal, coin. They are all very popular.
Not a big difference, Not a small difference. No difference.
@Goldminers said:
How can it be gone? 17,500 really? Where is @NJCoin opinion with this?
Sorry I got jammed up at work today, but I'm here now to take my figurative beating. 😀
I know some folks will be disappointed to see me say this, but I was WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!!!
I always said I'd admit when I was clearly wrong, and I was clearly wrong.
I can't really explain how I was so wrong, but I was wrong.
Either there is truly organic demand for this, basically at any price, or this is just a buying club creation reminiscent of the good 'ole days when the site was crashed by the bots, and many collectors found themselves shut out.
Truly inexplicable how 40K silver medals with a $3K+ lottery ticket lasted a day while these, at $3640, didn't last 5 minutes. Especially with everything dealers have been offering on eBay over the past week. I guess we'll see over the next week or so whether there is a strong secondary market for these, or whether the price collapses when everyone who scarfed them up has no one to sell to.
Either way, once again, I WAS WRONG!!! I truly thought these would last until at least noon tomorrow. After which we'd see whether there was an appetite for 17,500 gold coins priced over $1,000 above spot. Clearly, there is. At least today.
For anyone who missed out, happy hunting at 7:30 a.m. the next week or two.
Hopefully anyone who thought 230 privys would have a difficult time cracking $9K will also step up when the time comes and admit they were wrong. $20K+, for the least expensive PR 69, based on today's action.
Glad you're back. And I mean that seriously. If you added up all the times I was wrong I'd pass you by a mile. Keep the faith and use your best judgment.
Are you really saying they sold 65% in advance? If so, I wonder what @jmlanzaf thinks about that?
No idea. I also don't know where that number came from. The new version of the website doesn't show quantity available.. I'm sure coin world will report sales.
I had another and checked out this morning, but HHL of one stopped the payment process. So all you that didn't get one should have been able to
BST references: jdimmick;Gerard;wondercoin;claychaser;agentjim007;CCC2010;guitarwes;TAMU15;Zubie;mariner67;segoja;Smittys;kaz;CARDSANDCOINS;FadeToBlack; jrt103;tizofthe;bronze6827;mkman;Scootersdad;AllCoinsRule;coindeuce;dmarks;piecesofme; and many more
It was available for about ten seconds. I was able to put one into my bag!!! When I went to look at the bag, it was already unavailable again. Did anyone here get through with one??
@Danno44 said:
Anyone else experiencing orders being cancelled?
Rumor is this is happening.
Orders get cancelled. Often for issues relating to payment, HHL, matching addresses, etc.
True, I understand that, but appears to be more than that from what I’m hearing.
Only because, with all the hype and buying clubs, you likely had more people than usual messing around with violating the HHL during the 4 minute frenzy.
Comments
Yes I leave in capsule for max protection and place in a flip.
Does PCGS require capsule placed in flip? Seems to make no sense but if so will order flips.
it is safer for the capsule to be in a flip because sometimes the capsules pop open
Keeping mine in OGP.
I was there today on line - about 20th or so in the line at 10;02am....right behind the first few individuals with early bird passes like mine. The others (about 17-18) ahead of us had dealer badges, so they were there earlier than 10am.
We waited the two hours and at 12 noon the orderly process started. Before public entry at noon, the early bird line swelled to about 150 or maybe a few more; as soon as 12 noon opening to public - the line got much larger.
Very orderly process, as described by other posts above, but only one checkout register so it took some time to get thru the line.
Some rumors of the USM having a certain qty available each day of the show, ranging from 200-500 coins - but this could not be confirmed.
They had to sell more that 300 coins by the time I left the show at 2:30pm and the line was still quite large.
I see in posts at around 6:15 pm they "sold out" at the US Mint booth--but that would mean they probably had about 500 coins avilable today. If there is any truth to the multiple day sales for the gold at the show - whoever is there tomorrow will have to report back.
One dealer came up to the line and annoucned a buy price of $300 over just before sales opened at noon - it didnt seem like anyone bit.
I did hear dealers buying in the $500 over range before I left the show at 2:30pm.
I bought a coin and so did my wife, one was submitted across the street for a sopecial SHOW label "First Day - Baltimore Show"; the other was submitted to PCGS for the FS Gold Flowing Hair label.
My order will be here tomorrow by noon. What to do with it? I really like the design but I feel like I could have more history for $3600
They are absoluely beautiful coins in person. If you can get one tomorrow...grab it at 7:30am if any available.
You will not be disappointed.
Typically 10% or so. The number will usually be reported
Amazing coin. Wanting one more and more the more I see them. Quick question though. Do graders still grade with bare hands? With these having a proof like smooth edge, I could clearly see fingerprints from him handlings the edge. That could be an issue.
Good call. Found a eBay seller offering 10 flips. Out of flips and no longer have any coins raw justifying larger packs
While I cannot guarantee it is current, the PCGS FAQs indicate that the graders and sealers do not wear gloves.
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/faq
Edited to Add:
The NGC FAQs also indicate that the graders do not wear gloves.
Link: https://www.ngccoin.com/about/help-center-faqs/ngc-grading/other-grading-topics/
Unless the mint has made major capacity upgrades, I'm just thinking there's no way they sold north of what must or should have been 10,000 coins 1 at a time in 3 minutes.
Anyone want to guess if mintage was in fact the 17,500 reported by Coinworld? Order sequence in the 4 mins period this morning amounts to around 7,000. If Baltimore sold 500 plus 10% bulk buyers assuming 17,500 max minted that would be 1750. 7k, 1.75k, 0.5k add up to sub 10k. Toss in 230 privys set aside might could stretch number to 10k. Granted if less than 17,500 were minted the assumed 10% bulk buyer qty would cut number lower. There is a noticeable gap I cant get to add up to the max mintage. Hopefully Tuesday will see sales.
Back in 2020 at the height of the W quarters program I went to the FUN show in FL. Was able to attend the PCGS luncheon and afterwards talk to a PCGS grader who confirmed they do NOT wear gloves when handling a coin which shocked me.
In fact, he told me he personally handled very valuable coins without gloves. FWIW.....
They don't sell them one at a time. They've sold as many as 200,000 coins in 10 or 15 minutes even 5 years ago. 10,000+ coins in 3 or 4 minutes is not an issue.
well - we will have to wait for the sales report...!
Or was 17,500. It was reported previously by not coin world that they were all struck.
We can't know that the lowest number was the first sale of the day or that the highest number was the last number. We didn't even have that many numbers.
Sorry I got jammed up at work today, but I'm here now to take my figurative beating. 😀
I know some folks will be disappointed to see me say this, but I was WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!!!
I always said I'd admit when I was clearly wrong, and I was clearly wrong.
I can't really explain how I was so wrong, but I was wrong.
Either there is truly organic demand for this, basically at any price, or this is just a buying club creation reminiscent of the good 'ole days when the site was crashed by the bots, and many collectors found themselves shut out.
Truly inexplicable how 40K silver medals with a $3K+ lottery ticket lasted a day while these, at $3640, didn't last 5 minutes. Especially with everything dealers have been offering on eBay over the past week. I guess we'll see over the next week or so whether there is a strong secondary market for these, or whether the price collapses when everyone who scarfed them up has no one to sell to.
Either way, once again, I WAS WRONG!!! I truly thought these would last until at least noon tomorrow. After which we'd see whether there was an appetite for 17,500 gold coins priced over $1,000 above spot. Clearly, there is. At least today.
For anyone who missed out, happy hunting at 7:30 a.m. the next week or two.
Hopefully anyone who thought 230 privys would have a difficult time cracking $9K will also step up when the time comes and admit they were wrong. $20K+, for the least expensive PR 69, based on today's action.
Last time I had to compete at the opening of an offering was 2011 with silver eagle 5 coin sets limited to 5 sets per household with a max mintage of maybe 100k. I managed to get 35 sets (7x5 set limit) and recall order window was open a few hours with multiple crashes. This morning no issues and at 12:01 my order was around 2000 above from the order number reported for a different item prior to window opening. This was a big upgrade from the Pitney Bowes days. It was smooth as silk.
Not much to explain. I was wrong. We'll learn soon enough why.
Either I, and the Mint, vastly underestimated organic demand for a $3640 one ounce gold coin with a mintage of 17,500, OR buying club buyers slammed the site at noon, and improved technology allowed them to clean out the Mint in 4 minutes without crashing the website.
TBD whether these take off from here or crash. That will depend on just who the buyers were, and whether those who missed out are going to feel the need to pay up in the secondary market.
The fact that advance buyers reduced the quantity available on the site from 17,500 to whatever really isn't the story, as some are speculating. Because, even if they took the 20% that they seemingly took with the sliver medals, that's still only 3500, leaving 14,000 for sale. Less whatever they allocated to Baltimore and the 3 Mint retail outlets.
Not this time. Just flat out wrong. Had a heads-up about buying clubs form the likes of @treybenedict, and didn't believe it. That's on me.
Now, let's see if they have people to sell to. If so, these are going to be home runs. Otherwise, this is a mirage, and people loading up at 7:30 a.m. are going to get hurt if gold doesn't go back up, and if 5,000 of these find their way to eBay over the next few weeks, with no takers at $4K+.
TBD. But today, I was wrong. After seeing free $3K+ lottery tickets easily available for 24 hours, never in a million years thought $3640 one ounce gold coins would sell out in 4 minutes.
I want that label. Do you recall the code for the special label FS Gold Flowing Hair? Have seen pics and is not listed on PCGS website. Called PCGS today and person talked to put me on hold and later said not aware of a special label for the gold.
As before, I'm still not sure about that. If true, then advance buyers took down nearly 20% of the silver medals.
While regular bulk buyers got very little to none, since they were gone in 2 minutes. And bulk buyers who are not ABPP will be getting exactly zero of these, unless they got in line online or in Baltimore and got one.
Does that really sound right to you?
It is strange how the silver medal version was up for 24 hours at 50k total until the HHL was lifted, and this gold version at 17.5k total was up for only three minutes. This probably ensures the silver medal prices will go higher from here, but the gold may peak under 5k. Anyone could buy 18 silver medals for one gold priced one. The only comparable I remember is the UHR gold at over 100,000 mintage that sold out and went higher. Maybe the demand is there like the UHR St Gaudens. I still think the silver is a better buy and would take 18 of those over 1 gold.
Many years ago we had a thread about investing in modern coins here and one of the caveats was the higher the price of gold went, the lower the mintages would become in a normal series. And that has continued to play out with the gold commemorative coins that are now selling at under 1500 in total for uncirc ( it also played out with the gold spouse series). It drives all past issues to melt as the demand is only there for less than 1500. I am surprised that the one ounce gold coins have not fallen the same as these other gold issues. I still think in the end many will have to use all these coins as melt value if our dollar collapses, but that is for another thread.
‘’I still think in the end many will have to use all these coins as melt value if our dollar collapses, but that is for another thread.’’
And at $10,000/oz for gold in that hypothetical, what will be the problem? 😉
Wondercoin
The big difference is the silver version is a medal but the gold version is a COIN. To many collectors that makes a big difference and therefore there is more demand for the gold coin vs. the silver medal.
.
Are you really saying they sold 65% in advance? If so, I wonder what @jmlanzaf thinks about that?
Yes, BIG difference. 🤣🤣🤣
50K silver medals containing around $30 worth of silver sold out in 2 minutes once the HHL was lifted, and they are selling for over 7x melt, and over 2x issue price, a month after release. They'd be worth SOOOOOOOO much more if they were coins. 🤣🤣🤣
Coin vs medal might make a difference with other things, but they haven't made even a little difference with these. Privy, non-privy. Silver, gold. Medal, coin. They are all very popular.
Not a big difference, Not a small difference. No difference.
If you didn’t get this coin, relax as $4900 will buy plenty of nice alternatives on the secondary market.
Latest reported bigbucks 293XX -217xx (11:58 pre-sale order) = 7600
It's a beautiful coin, no doubt; but I'd rather have the $3,640. I'd rather buy beautiful old coins.
Or you buy one flip make some money towards your beautiful old coins.
I was thinking the only made made/sold 7500-10000 . Just pure speculation of course.
Glad you're back. And I mean that seriously. If you added up all the times I was wrong I'd pass you by a mile. Keep the faith and use your best judgment.
They announced last week that all 17,500 had been made
No idea. I also don't know where that number came from. The new version of the website doesn't show quantity available.. I'm sure coin world will report sales.
Anyone else experiencing orders being cancelled?
Rumor is this is happening.
Orders get cancelled. Often for issues relating to payment, HHL, matching addresses, etc.
True, I understand that, but appears to be more than that from what I’m hearing.
Need a source... and not just reddit complaints.
Got one!
Order Placed: November 15, 2024
Order Number: USM14930xxx
I had another and checked out this morning, but HHL of one stopped the payment process. So all you that didn't get one should have been able to
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jrt103;tizofthe;bronze6827;mkman;Scootersdad;AllCoinsRule;coindeuce;dmarks;piecesofme; and many more
It was available for about ten seconds. I was able to put one into my bag!!! When I went to look at the bag, it was already unavailable again. Did anyone here get through with one??
Only because, with all the hype and buying clubs, you likely had more people than usual messing around with violating the HHL during the 4 minute frenzy.
Not many today at the 7:30 lottery
I was able to bag one and check out. I attempted to bag a second one but already unavailable.
Successful transactions with forum members commoncents05, dmarks, Coinscratch, Bullsitter, DCW, TwoSides2aCoin, Namvet69 (facilitated for 3rd party), Tetromibi, ProfLizMay, MASSU2, MWallace, Bruce7789, Twobitcollector, 78saen, U1chicago, Rob41281
Yup. Just flat out wrong. Says it all.