@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
Perhaps. It's still the very definition of opacity. And, it is the height of gaslighting to accuse anyone of "conflating and assuming" by believing that an announced maximum mintage is the very amount that will be produced, assuming the Mint can sell them.
It's not gaslighting. You made a bad ASSumption. Why can't you own it?
People make purchase decisions based on subject, design, price and mintage. Announcing any one of those elements, and then changing it without disclosure, is simply not right.
What didn't they disclose? All of the mint disclosures were accurate. You made bad ASSumptions based on the disclosures.
Not producing the maximum because they cannot, or due to lack of demand, is one thing. Making an arbitrary decision not to is something else entirely.
How do you know it was arbitrary? I can come up with a dozen plausible scenarios for how the US mint bureaucracy ended up doing what they did with no ill motive.
And conflating the two is gaslighting anyone who takes what the Mint announces at face value. As I said before, if the Mint keeps doing this, at these prices, they are going to find more and more people looking for another outlet for their collecting dollars.
I don't know, I might be more inclined to buy on a speculation that they won't make the full limit. But to emphasize that would be an ASSumption on my part if I were going to do that.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
The mint is at liberty to strike 25,000 more silver medals at any time. Contrary statements from the mint are little more than hot air. Whomever is at the helm is blindfolded.
Probably. But, announcing a maximum mintage and not producing to it, if demand warrants, is disingenuous. Flat out saying they won't make the additional 25K, and then making them anyway is something else entirely.
It's affirmatively lying, plain and simple. That would be taking it to a whole new level.
Which isn't to say it can't happen, because something has to give between them also affirmatively saying they made 17.5K gold, and then changing the product limit to 10K. Either the statement to Coin World that they minted 17.5K wasn't true, or 7.5K are now sitting in a warehouse waiting to hit the market in one form or another, since the "Product Limit" for the standalone coin is now 10K. Whatever they are doing, it isn't going to end well for them.
Once upon a time, the Perth Mint did something similar. They had a very popular 3 coin proof Lunar set, with a product limit of 1,000 and a 2 ounce coin that could only be obtained in the set. It was an instant sell out every year.
Then they got greedy, and decided to capitalize on the demand by making an additional 1K 2 ounce coins available by subscription, without telling people ahead of time what they would be doing. Like the US Mint now, they distinguished "mintage" from "product limit."
Disgusted a lot of people paying significant premiums to melt for limited edition products. Treating customers with disrespect, because you are a government agency that can do what you want, isn't really that smart when dealing with relatively high priced discretionary items.
Today, you can buy as many 3 coin sets or 2 ounce subscriptions form the Perth Mint as you want, because people got annoyed, the mint lost credibility, and it turns out collectors can actually lead happy and fulfilling lives without Perth Mint proof Lunar coins. Based on the sales of lots of current US Mint products, this reality is not limited to Australia.
I'm sure you'll say it is "different" but it's not that uncommon for them to not produce the full mintage. It's unusual for items under 100,000 but not unheard of even then.
I understand, and, no it's not "different" if there is no demand for the full mintage. That's normal. What's not normal is announcing a mintage, having whatever they made below that mintage sell out in less than a week, and then arbitrarily, for no apparent reason, refuse to make more.
Who said there was no reason? Do you have some inside information? What are basing that off of? I don't recall seeing any press or announcements about the decision being arbitrary.
The lottery was "different," and it was very disingenuous of them to announce 75K, only produce 50K, fully seed the 50K with winning lottery tickets, and not tell anyone what they did until weeks after the fact. And now, whatever is going on with the gold.
I don't know, it made everyone who bought one's coin more scarce/valuable and increase their odds in the lottery. In addition to that, due to the HHL of 1 and the waiting room anyone who wanted one was able to buy one. I can't think of anything more fair than how they conducted this sale.
All I'm saying is that if they keep this up, no one is going to take anything they announce at face value, and plenty of people will just become annoyed to the point of tuning them and their offerings out and moving on to something else. Equally puzzling is how Coin World just repeats whatever they say without question, and without follow-up when what they say makes no sense.
That's the state of the press today. They just regurgitate press releases.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
Perhaps. It's still the very definition of opacity. And, it is the height of gaslighting to accuse anyone of "conflating and assuming" by believing that an announced maximum mintage is the very amount that will be produced, assuming the Mint can sell them.
It's not gaslighting. You made a bad ASSumption. Why can't you own it?
People make purchase decisions based on subject, design, price and mintage. Announcing any one of those elements, and then changing it without disclosure, is simply not right.
What didn't they disclose? All of the mint disclosures were accurate. You made bad ASSumptions based on the disclosures.
Not producing the maximum because they cannot, or due to lack of demand, is one thing. Making an arbitrary decision not to is something else entirely.
How do you know it was arbitrary? I can come up with a dozen plausible scenarios for how the US mint bureaucracy ended up doing what they did with no ill motive.
And conflating the two is gaslighting anyone who takes what the Mint announces at face value. As I said before, if the Mint keeps doing this, at these prices, they are going to find more and more people looking for another outlet for their collecting dollars.
I don't know, I might be more inclined to buy on a speculation that they won't make the full limit. But to emphasize that would be an ASSumption on my part if I were going to do that.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
The mint is at liberty to strike 25,000 more silver medals at any time. Contrary statements from the mint are little more than hot air. Whomever is at the helm is blindfolded.
Probably. But, announcing a maximum mintage and not producing to it, if demand warrants, is disingenuous. Flat out saying they won't make the additional 25K, and then making them anyway is something else entirely.
It's affirmatively lying, plain and simple. That would be taking it to a whole new level.
Which isn't to say it can't happen, because something has to give between them also affirmatively saying they made 17.5K gold, and then changing the product limit to 10K. Either the statement to Coin World that they minted 17.5K wasn't true, or 7.5K are now sitting in a warehouse waiting to hit the market in one form or another, since the "Product Limit" for the standalone coin is now 10K. Whatever they are doing, it isn't going to end well for them.
Once upon a time, the Perth Mint did something similar. They had a very popular 3 coin proof Lunar set, with a product limit of 1,000 and a 2 ounce coin that could only be obtained in the set. It was an instant sell out every year.
Then they got greedy, and decided to capitalize on the demand by making an additional 1K 2 ounce coins available by subscription, without telling people ahead of time what they would be doing. Like the US Mint now, they distinguished "mintage" from "product limit."
Disgusted a lot of people paying significant premiums to melt for limited edition products. Treating customers with disrespect, because you are a government agency that can do what you want, isn't really that smart when dealing with relatively high priced discretionary items.
Today, you can buy as many 3 coin sets or 2 ounce subscriptions form the Perth Mint as you want, because people got annoyed, the mint lost credibility, and it turns out collectors can actually lead happy and fulfilling lives without Perth Mint proof Lunar coins. Based on the sales of lots of current US Mint products, this reality is not limited to Australia.
I'm sure you'll say it is "different" but it's not that uncommon for them to not produce the full mintage. It's unusual for items under 100,000 but not unheard of even then.
I understand, and, no it's not "different" if there is no demand for the full mintage. That's normal. What's not normal is announcing a mintage, having whatever they made below that mintage sell out in less than a week, and then arbitrarily, for no apparent reason, refuse to make more.
Who said there was no reason? Do you have some inside information? What are basing that off of? I don't recall seeing any press or announcements about the decision being arbitrary.
The lottery was "different," and it was very disingenuous of them to announce 75K, only produce 50K, fully seed the 50K with winning lottery tickets, and not tell anyone what they did until weeks after the fact. And now, whatever is going on with the gold.
I don't know, it made everyone who bought one's coin more scarce/valuable and increase their odds in the lottery. In addition to that, due to the HHL of 1 and the waiting room anyone who wanted one was able to buy one. I can't think of anything more fair than how they conducted this sale.
All I'm saying is that if they keep this up, no one is going to take anything they announce at face value, and plenty of people will just become annoyed to the point of tuning them and their offerings out and moving on to something else. Equally puzzling is how Coin World just repeats whatever they say without question, and without follow-up when what they say makes no sense.
That's the state of the press today. They just regurgitate press releases.
I can't "own it" because I don't think taking announced maximum mintages at face value, or having to guess how many will actually be made regardless of demand, should involve any ASSumptions at all.
Taking what you are saying to its natural conclusion, why not just announce every maximum mintage as 100 million, and then just make any number they want? Maybe because that would provide no useful information at all.
Kind of like announcing a number, and then, for whatever reason, just cutting off sales at 1/2 or 2/3 of that number. Again, for no obvious or apparent reason.
If I am expected to guess what a mintage will actually turn out to be, not based on expected demand combined with an announced maximum mintage, but based on mysterious undisclosed factors, maybe they should say nothing at all, rather than leave us guessing and ASSuming. Maybe.
And maybe some of us will just get annoyed and simply stop playing. Then whoever is left can decide what to do with Morgan and Peace Dollars that don't hold their value, because people don't want them at 3x+ spot.
Right now, they can't sell what they do produce, won't sell what there actually is demand for, and aren't transparent in anything the say or do. But I'm the one making bad ASSumptions. 🤣
No, I'm not owning anything if what I'm doing is speculating based on expected demand and announced maximum mintages. The only mistake I made was taking what they said at face value.
Twice now, kind of like Charlie Brown with Lucy and the football. For the second round, they actually explicitly told Coin World they made the full maximum mintage, and only reduced the product limit after they sold out a fraction of the announced mintage.
The only bad ASSumption made was that they would treat us with respect, not make misleading statements, and be transparent. That I will own, and will try very hard not to make the same mistake going forward. Like any other organization, once they lose credibility, it will be very difficult to get it back.
For those like you who apparently ASSume nothing they say means anything, it will cost them nothing. For others, not so much. Because, if one is making a bad ASSumption believing an announced maximum mintage of 17.5K combined with a statement that they made 17.5K means that 17.5K will be placed on sale on the On Sale date, then nothing they say means anything.
Because that is a logical conclusion. Not an ASSumption. Good, bad or otherwise.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
Perhaps. It's still the very definition of opacity. And, it is the height of gaslighting to accuse anyone of "conflating and assuming" by believing that an announced maximum mintage is the very amount that will be produced, assuming the Mint can sell them.
It's not gaslighting. You made a bad ASSumption. Why can't you own it?
People make purchase decisions based on subject, design, price and mintage. Announcing any one of those elements, and then changing it without disclosure, is simply not right.
What didn't they disclose? All of the mint disclosures were accurate. You made bad ASSumptions based on the disclosures.
Not producing the maximum because they cannot, or due to lack of demand, is one thing. Making an arbitrary decision not to is something else entirely.
How do you know it was arbitrary? I can come up with a dozen plausible scenarios for how the US mint bureaucracy ended up doing what they did with no ill motive.
And conflating the two is gaslighting anyone who takes what the Mint announces at face value. As I said before, if the Mint keeps doing this, at these prices, they are going to find more and more people looking for another outlet for their collecting dollars.
I don't know, I might be more inclined to buy on a speculation that they won't make the full limit. But to emphasize that would be an ASSumption on my part if I were going to do that.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
The mint is at liberty to strike 25,000 more silver medals at any time. Contrary statements from the mint are little more than hot air. Whomever is at the helm is blindfolded.
Probably. But, announcing a maximum mintage and not producing to it, if demand warrants, is disingenuous. Flat out saying they won't make the additional 25K, and then making them anyway is something else entirely.
It's affirmatively lying, plain and simple. That would be taking it to a whole new level.
Which isn't to say it can't happen, because something has to give between them also affirmatively saying they made 17.5K gold, and then changing the product limit to 10K. Either the statement to Coin World that they minted 17.5K wasn't true, or 7.5K are now sitting in a warehouse waiting to hit the market in one form or another, since the "Product Limit" for the standalone coin is now 10K. Whatever they are doing, it isn't going to end well for them.
Once upon a time, the Perth Mint did something similar. They had a very popular 3 coin proof Lunar set, with a product limit of 1,000 and a 2 ounce coin that could only be obtained in the set. It was an instant sell out every year.
Then they got greedy, and decided to capitalize on the demand by making an additional 1K 2 ounce coins available by subscription, without telling people ahead of time what they would be doing. Like the US Mint now, they distinguished "mintage" from "product limit."
Disgusted a lot of people paying significant premiums to melt for limited edition products. Treating customers with disrespect, because you are a government agency that can do what you want, isn't really that smart when dealing with relatively high priced discretionary items.
Today, you can buy as many 3 coin sets or 2 ounce subscriptions form the Perth Mint as you want, because people got annoyed, the mint lost credibility, and it turns out collectors can actually lead happy and fulfilling lives without Perth Mint proof Lunar coins. Based on the sales of lots of current US Mint products, this reality is not limited to Australia.
I'm sure you'll say it is "different" but it's not that uncommon for them to not produce the full mintage. It's unusual for items under 100,000 but not unheard of even then.
I understand, and, no it's not "different" if there is no demand for the full mintage. That's normal. What's not normal is announcing a mintage, having whatever they made below that mintage sell out in less than a week, and then arbitrarily, for no apparent reason, refuse to make more.
Who said there was no reason? Do you have some inside information? What are basing that off of? I don't recall seeing any press or announcements about the decision being arbitrary.
The lottery was "different," and it was very disingenuous of them to announce 75K, only produce 50K, fully seed the 50K with winning lottery tickets, and not tell anyone what they did until weeks after the fact. And now, whatever is going on with the gold.
I don't know, it made everyone who bought one's coin more scarce/valuable and increase their odds in the lottery. In addition to that, due to the HHL of 1 and the waiting room anyone who wanted one was able to buy one. I can't think of anything more fair than how they conducted this sale.
All I'm saying is that if they keep this up, no one is going to take anything they announce at face value, and plenty of people will just become annoyed to the point of tuning them and their offerings out and moving on to something else. Equally puzzling is how Coin World just repeats whatever they say without question, and without follow-up when what they say makes no sense.
That's the state of the press today. They just regurgitate press releases.
No, I'm not owning anything if what I'm doing is speculating based on expected demand and announced maximum mintages. The only mistake I made was taking what they said at face value.
Why do you keep implying that the mint lied?
The mint never, ever, said they would actually produce 75,000 Silver FH Medals.
If you took the mint's information at face value, the only scenario in which you could rightly be upset is when they made the medal #75001. Why are you so dense about this?
Don't blame the mint for your inability to understand their marketing materials.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
Perhaps. It's still the very definition of opacity. And, it is the height of gaslighting to accuse anyone of "conflating and assuming" by believing that an announced maximum mintage is the very amount that will be produced, assuming the Mint can sell them.
It's not gaslighting. You made a bad ASSumption. Why can't you own it?
People make purchase decisions based on subject, design, price and mintage. Announcing any one of those elements, and then changing it without disclosure, is simply not right.
What didn't they disclose? All of the mint disclosures were accurate. You made bad ASSumptions based on the disclosures.
Not producing the maximum because they cannot, or due to lack of demand, is one thing. Making an arbitrary decision not to is something else entirely.
How do you know it was arbitrary? I can come up with a dozen plausible scenarios for how the US mint bureaucracy ended up doing what they did with no ill motive.
And conflating the two is gaslighting anyone who takes what the Mint announces at face value. As I said before, if the Mint keeps doing this, at these prices, they are going to find more and more people looking for another outlet for their collecting dollars.
I don't know, I might be more inclined to buy on a speculation that they won't make the full limit. But to emphasize that would be an ASSumption on my part if I were going to do that.
@fathom said:
We paid a premium, now we will see if cutting the production will hold values. I think it will. If that is the intent then I am all for that, and it should spark interest on future products knowing that the premium is justified.
Stop complaining people, your purchases are holding or exceeding the premium you paid.
Yeah, i don't understand the complaint...other than maybe they think they could have bought more to flip
The complaints are likely from people who got shut out on the first day. Because you are right -- other than them, and maybe people who sold for small profits thinking the price won't hold with a mintage of 17.5K, no one else has anything to complain about.
I'm about to complain about conceding how bad my prediction was without knowing they at least momentarily cut the mintage in half. Kind of annoying, since I've been saying all along the mintage should have been the same 12.5K as the American Liberty high relief coins.
If they went all the way down to 10K without telling anyone, that's kind of BS, since that would have been relevant to people who took a pass at 17.5K but would have been interested at 10K.
It's actually not BS. It's only a problem for those who conflate and assume that the US mint will produce to the full limit.
Not being transparent about whether the remaining 7.5K is going to be released is also BS. If they keep playing games, they are going to eventually kill the Golden Goose. And, with it, their ability to sell tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals at multiples of their spot price.
Agreed, they should say what their plans are here.
Well, yeah! What's the point of announcing a maximum mintage they have no intention of producing, regardless of demand?
I think someone with a devious mind, working at the mint, does this deliberately just to read your forum posts about it.
The mint is at liberty to strike 25,000 more silver medals at any time. Contrary statements from the mint are little more than hot air. Whomever is at the helm is blindfolded.
Probably. But, announcing a maximum mintage and not producing to it, if demand warrants, is disingenuous. Flat out saying they won't make the additional 25K, and then making them anyway is something else entirely.
It's affirmatively lying, plain and simple. That would be taking it to a whole new level.
Which isn't to say it can't happen, because something has to give between them also affirmatively saying they made 17.5K gold, and then changing the product limit to 10K. Either the statement to Coin World that they minted 17.5K wasn't true, or 7.5K are now sitting in a warehouse waiting to hit the market in one form or another, since the "Product Limit" for the standalone coin is now 10K. Whatever they are doing, it isn't going to end well for them.
Once upon a time, the Perth Mint did something similar. They had a very popular 3 coin proof Lunar set, with a product limit of 1,000 and a 2 ounce coin that could only be obtained in the set. It was an instant sell out every year.
Then they got greedy, and decided to capitalize on the demand by making an additional 1K 2 ounce coins available by subscription, without telling people ahead of time what they would be doing. Like the US Mint now, they distinguished "mintage" from "product limit."
Disgusted a lot of people paying significant premiums to melt for limited edition products. Treating customers with disrespect, because you are a government agency that can do what you want, isn't really that smart when dealing with relatively high priced discretionary items.
Today, you can buy as many 3 coin sets or 2 ounce subscriptions form the Perth Mint as you want, because people got annoyed, the mint lost credibility, and it turns out collectors can actually lead happy and fulfilling lives without Perth Mint proof Lunar coins. Based on the sales of lots of current US Mint products, this reality is not limited to Australia.
I'm sure you'll say it is "different" but it's not that uncommon for them to not produce the full mintage. It's unusual for items under 100,000 but not unheard of even then.
I understand, and, no it's not "different" if there is no demand for the full mintage. That's normal. What's not normal is announcing a mintage, having whatever they made below that mintage sell out in less than a week, and then arbitrarily, for no apparent reason, refuse to make more.
Who said there was no reason? Do you have some inside information? What are basing that off of? I don't recall seeing any press or announcements about the decision being arbitrary.
The lottery was "different," and it was very disingenuous of them to announce 75K, only produce 50K, fully seed the 50K with winning lottery tickets, and not tell anyone what they did until weeks after the fact. And now, whatever is going on with the gold.
I don't know, it made everyone who bought one's coin more scarce/valuable and increase their odds in the lottery. In addition to that, due to the HHL of 1 and the waiting room anyone who wanted one was able to buy one. I can't think of anything more fair than how they conducted this sale.
All I'm saying is that if they keep this up, no one is going to take anything they announce at face value, and plenty of people will just become annoyed to the point of tuning them and their offerings out and moving on to something else. Equally puzzling is how Coin World just repeats whatever they say without question, and without follow-up when what they say makes no sense.
That's the state of the press today. They just regurgitate press releases.
No, I'm not owning anything if what I'm doing is speculating based on expected demand and announced maximum mintages. The only mistake I made was taking what they said at face value.
Why do you keep implying that the mint lied?
The mint never, ever, said they would actually produce 75,000 Silver FH Medals.
If you took the mint's information at face value, the only scenario in which you could rightly be upset is when they made the medal #75001. Why are you so dense about this?
Don't blame the mint for your inability to understand their marketing materials.
What I now understand is that announced maximum mintages are meaningless, because they will do what they want, regardless of demand and authorized maximum mintages. I clearly did not understand that before.
And, for the record, yes, if the Mint did not flat out lie, they certainly did mislead by not prominently posting "Product Limits" upfront, like they did after the fact. That led to an ASSumption that 1794 privys would be spread among the 75K mintage limit. Not an undisclosed Product Limit they only disclosed after the fact.
Same now with the gold. Coin World is reporting 17.5K sold out in 4 minutes, based on previous statements by the Mint that 17.5K were produced, and that they sold out in 4 minutes. Only after the sell out did the Mint revise the product page on the website to disclose a previously undisclosed Product Limit of 10K.
You can say what you want, and the Mint can do what it wants. But I am sure I am not the only person taking what they say at face value and feeling misled. Time will tell whether people just accept it, or get annoyed and stop playing.
Again, there is absolutely no reason to announce a mintage limit the Mint has no intention of ever producing, regardless of demand. Doing so is misleading at best, and lying at worst. I'm not implying anything. I'm flat out saying it.
You can call me dense all you want, but my ability to understand the written word has never been seriously called into question. Failing to hit a mintage limit because there is insufficient market demand is one thing. Announcing a limit, and then arbitrarily failing to hit it because the Mint simply chooses not to, in spite of market demand, is something else entirely.
Why are YOU so dense about THAT? People make purchase decisions based on price and announced mintage limits all the time. If the information is inaccurate, people will be unable to make informed decisions, and might just decide to move on altogether, rather than attempting to divine the real mintage figure embedded within the announced maximum one that actually is meaningless.
Many folks unwittingly scored by buying FH silver and gold products with mintages far below first advertised. If the Mint actually does introduce a heretofore unannounced product to release into the market an additional 7.5K units of each, still within the original mintage limits, many people, particularly those who bought the gold in the secondary market, will surely be very unhappy. The Mint will learn the hard way that a lack of transparency has consequences, whether or not anything they do or don't say rises to the level of lying.
@Au100 said:
My GF picked up a 2024 230 Flowing Hair silver from the Mint, her first time buying anything from the Mint. She bought one the day of issue like myself as well, mine was normal with no privy of course. I told her the odds of the privy are pretty remote.
Anyways, she had let her Mint package sit unopened until this weekend, as she had forgotten about it for a few weeks. I'm like, well open it up and see what you got. None of us expected to see a privy, just a pretty medal. And so she did:
2024 230 silver with Privy! And with signed COA! The privy was like "wow", but then the signed COA was like "holy wow!" Holy crap what luck!
It sounds like your GF got the less desirable privy version. Why don't you step up and do the right thing and trade your more valuable plain version for hers.
It sounds like your GF got the less desirable privy version. Why don't you step up and do the right thing and trade your more valuable plain version for hers.
Comments
It's not gaslighting. You made a bad ASSumption. Why can't you own it?
What didn't they disclose? All of the mint disclosures were accurate. You made bad ASSumptions based on the disclosures.
How do you know it was arbitrary? I can come up with a dozen plausible scenarios for how the US mint bureaucracy ended up doing what they did with no ill motive.
I don't know, I might be more inclined to buy on a speculation that they won't make the full limit. But to emphasize that would be an ASSumption on my part if I were going to do that.
Who said there was no reason? Do you have some inside information? What are basing that off of? I don't recall seeing any press or announcements about the decision being arbitrary.
I don't know, it made everyone who bought one's coin more scarce/valuable and increase their odds in the lottery. In addition to that, due to the HHL of 1 and the waiting room anyone who wanted one was able to buy one. I can't think of anything more fair than how they conducted this sale.
That's the state of the press today. They just regurgitate press releases.
I can't "own it" because I don't think taking announced maximum mintages at face value, or having to guess how many will actually be made regardless of demand, should involve any ASSumptions at all.
Taking what you are saying to its natural conclusion, why not just announce every maximum mintage as 100 million, and then just make any number they want? Maybe because that would provide no useful information at all.
Kind of like announcing a number, and then, for whatever reason, just cutting off sales at 1/2 or 2/3 of that number. Again, for no obvious or apparent reason.
If I am expected to guess what a mintage will actually turn out to be, not based on expected demand combined with an announced maximum mintage, but based on mysterious undisclosed factors, maybe they should say nothing at all, rather than leave us guessing and ASSuming. Maybe.
And maybe some of us will just get annoyed and simply stop playing. Then whoever is left can decide what to do with Morgan and Peace Dollars that don't hold their value, because people don't want them at 3x+ spot.
Right now, they can't sell what they do produce, won't sell what there actually is demand for, and aren't transparent in anything the say or do. But I'm the one making bad ASSumptions. 🤣
No, I'm not owning anything if what I'm doing is speculating based on expected demand and announced maximum mintages. The only mistake I made was taking what they said at face value.
Twice now, kind of like Charlie Brown with Lucy and the football. For the second round, they actually explicitly told Coin World they made the full maximum mintage, and only reduced the product limit after they sold out a fraction of the announced mintage.
The only bad ASSumption made was that they would treat us with respect, not make misleading statements, and be transparent. That I will own, and will try very hard not to make the same mistake going forward. Like any other organization, once they lose credibility, it will be very difficult to get it back.
For those like you who apparently ASSume nothing they say means anything, it will cost them nothing. For others, not so much. Because, if one is making a bad ASSumption believing an announced maximum mintage of 17.5K combined with a statement that they made 17.5K means that 17.5K will be placed on sale on the On Sale date, then nothing they say means anything.
Because that is a logical conclusion. Not an ASSumption. Good, bad or otherwise.
Why do you keep implying that the mint lied?
The mint never, ever, said they would actually produce 75,000 Silver FH Medals.
If you took the mint's information at face value, the only scenario in which you could rightly be upset is when they made the medal #75001. Why are you so dense about this?
Don't blame the mint for your inability to understand their marketing materials.
What I now understand is that announced maximum mintages are meaningless, because they will do what they want, regardless of demand and authorized maximum mintages. I clearly did not understand that before.
And, for the record, yes, if the Mint did not flat out lie, they certainly did mislead by not prominently posting "Product Limits" upfront, like they did after the fact. That led to an ASSumption that 1794 privys would be spread among the 75K mintage limit. Not an undisclosed Product Limit they only disclosed after the fact.
Same now with the gold. Coin World is reporting 17.5K sold out in 4 minutes, based on previous statements by the Mint that 17.5K were produced, and that they sold out in 4 minutes. Only after the sell out did the Mint revise the product page on the website to disclose a previously undisclosed Product Limit of 10K.
You can say what you want, and the Mint can do what it wants. But I am sure I am not the only person taking what they say at face value and feeling misled. Time will tell whether people just accept it, or get annoyed and stop playing.
Again, there is absolutely no reason to announce a mintage limit the Mint has no intention of ever producing, regardless of demand. Doing so is misleading at best, and lying at worst. I'm not implying anything. I'm flat out saying it.
You can call me dense all you want, but my ability to understand the written word has never been seriously called into question. Failing to hit a mintage limit because there is insufficient market demand is one thing. Announcing a limit, and then arbitrarily failing to hit it because the Mint simply chooses not to, in spite of market demand, is something else entirely.
Why are YOU so dense about THAT? People make purchase decisions based on price and announced mintage limits all the time. If the information is inaccurate, people will be unable to make informed decisions, and might just decide to move on altogether, rather than attempting to divine the real mintage figure embedded within the announced maximum one that actually is meaningless.
Many folks unwittingly scored by buying FH silver and gold products with mintages far below first advertised. If the Mint actually does introduce a heretofore unannounced product to release into the market an additional 7.5K units of each, still within the original mintage limits, many people, particularly those who bought the gold in the secondary market, will surely be very unhappy. The Mint will learn the hard way that a lack of transparency has consequences, whether or not anything they do or don't say rises to the level of lying.
It sounds like your GF got the less desirable privy version. Why don't you step up and do the right thing and trade your more valuable plain version for hers.
Hopefully the Mint is starting to think like a coin collector.
Leave a little demand on the table.
What would we rather have long term? Solid values or destruction?
If we are waiting for a goldilocks release number we will be disappointed. We should get off our asses and order...or shut up.
haha! I tried, she's too smart for me