I can’t remember if HA did this in the past but today they notified me that my Live Proxy bid for Thursday’s auction has been outbid.
Isn’t that weird (?) it’s like an auction within an auction and they’re letting me know that when it goes live my Proxy bid is going to lose. Sort of defeats the purpose of a Proxy bid right (?!?) because now I know!
And then if I raise my Proxy bid they’re going to tell the other bidder!
@lermish said:
First I've ever heard of @PeakRarities being a slimeball. He is as upstanding and trustworthy of a person there is. He is well known outside of Jefferson Nickel circles.
Why didn't you highlight the good I said about the guy?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Personally, it wouldn’t make a difference. Like others, I tend to place my bid for the amount I’m comfortable paying. Or, if I’m available when the auction is live, I’ll wait & snipe in the last 10-15 seconds.
I use proxy bids @ HA sometimes, but it’s just not essential for me.
@lermish said:
First I've ever heard of @PeakRarities being a slimeball. He is as upstanding and trustworthy of a person there is. He is well known outside of Jefferson Nickel circles.
Why didn't you highlight the good I said about the guy?
Calling somebody a slimeball trumps saying something nice.
"I think that 'Member X' is a crook but he has a really nice collection. " Which part of that sentence stands out to you?
Collectors sent in coins to be graded through dealers at one time only to learn other dealers would mark them up higher only to sell back to collectors? Which brings up another interesting dilemma, there are only 100 collectors or less out of the 100,000 or more collectors that are out there in most of the catagories for Registry Sets for Jefferson nickels and maybe only about a dozen or so, maybe 14-15 of the top sets because after that the numbers and averages really start to taper off.........are PCGS coin values on coins being set by these very few people? Sure, not every collector has a Registry set but if they're stuck with paying what the price guide says......why wouldn't they have one.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@ianrussell said:
Thanks Dan. There's many reasons why we don't have a delayed proxy system, even though it would almost be unique in the auction arena for auctions with a hard close. Bidders like different ways - I can ask 100 bidders, and receive ten different ideas on how auctions should end - each which suits the person I am asking. Some people like the HA way of ending one lot after another, others like the GC way with a hard close. Some would like the option to end an auction immediately the second they are interested in it. :-)
We do have a system that will send you a text message 10 minutes before the auction will end - will that help in the case you're forgetting to bid?
You did email me a suggestion to allow only dealers some kind of special feature - that is not something we would ever consider - we built GC for everyone.
Ian
I sold some coins last week for a profit, am I a dealer now? What if I subscribe to the Greysheet. Or do I need a website. Maybe I just proclaim myself to be a dealer and that’s it.
Any dealer who needs to buy at auction and mark it up to a collector base as a primary means of sourcing inventory isn’t adding any value. In the past the friction was much greater…printed catalogs with monochrome plates or no plates at all.
I’m disappointed that such a suggestion was made.
Sigh....In an attempt to stay on topic I decided not to address that part of Ian's comment at that time, because I didn't want the focus to be on our conversation. Perhaps that wasn't the right decision, but allow me to set the record straight and try my best not to ramble. I
First off, some context is crucial to understand the nature of that "suggestion"-
This last Saturday before Labor Day I sent Ian an email why GC did not have a proxy function. I was watching these Fairmont coins and the prices were very very, low for coins that were ending in 24 hours. In addition, I had 3 coins gold coins ending the next day at cost me a total cost of about $20,000. I thought too myself; "Hmm, I wonder if Labor day might negatively affect bidding?"
So I sent Ian an email asking why there wasn't a proxy feature on GC, and I was asking for EVERYONE, not just dealers. He explained that it would potentially make it riskier because it would discourage people from bidding early, which is something I didn't think about. I responded back that I never considered that, and that it was a valid point. I then thanked him for his time.
I hate that I have to now dig into our conversation, but It seems necessary now to make my intentions clear. The next day, I took about a $3000 loss on on those three coins. One was a MS67 saint that hammered for $4000 less than it hammered for last year. I wasn't crying about it though... that's the nature of the beast, and made a mental note to myself not to let coins like that end on a holiday.
Last night, I had another 44k (cost) in coins that we're ending on GC Now a lot of these coins were in my collection but I wanted to move on from them and they didn't garner much interest on the website. These arent ugly coins, and one of them was a scarce, attractive, and original double eagle that I bought for inventory. The collector was asking 16k-, CPG retail was 20,500, PCGS guide was 22,500, and the comps looked strong so I didn't even haggle with him and I wrote a check. I listed it at 17,500 and continued to lower the price as it sat until finally I realized i had made a mistake and bought a "Fairmonted" trap coin where the market was taking a nosedive in real time. When I couldnt get rid of it at cost, I sent it to GC and figured I might lose some money, but i wasn't expecting it to hammer for 13.3k. The other coins were in the 5-10k range, and I took losses on all, of them ranging from 20%-60 %. Total damage for the night was about -8500, ouch.
Because In the midst of this slaughter, I had realized I totally forgot to bid on the coin I wanted, and now I was pretty bummed out. Now why am I telling you this? I'm not looking for sympathy here, I'm a big boy and I learned some valuable lessons about trap coins and stale material. No big deal, I'll write it off and keep on moving.
The "proxy" feature entered my mind again, for several obvious reasons. I thought it was an interesting topic, and I wanted to know if anyone else had similar experiences. After I posted it, I thought I'd let Ian know as a courtesy in case he wanted to add to the discussion. However, I was a tired and I was lazy in my writing, and admittedly it might have read like I was being critical. As we know, context can get lost in writing and its easy to come across the wrong way. I mentioned that I thought it might be beneficial to consider the proxy feature. He replied back in a way that led me to believe the way interpreted that as me saying "I don't agree with your reasoning, and Im starting a thread to have a debate about it", when in my head I meant "I understand your position, but I'm really curious if others also forget to bid, and I wanted to let you know about the thread I posted". I emailed him back 7 minutes later to clarify my intentions and apologize If he took it differently, and I offered to edit my post if he thought it made him sound bad or something.
Thats when I came back to the forum and had seen that he already commented, and said that I "made a suggestion for dealers only...."
Which is disappointing, because I thought Ian would have known from our past dealings that I mean no harm. I was just trying to gain some insight about bidding behavior. Anyone who knows me, or honestly has just paid attention to what I post, knows that Im an analytical person who puts a lot of thought into things and a information such as this could help me with my decision making in the future. Ive ALWAYS spoken very highly of Ian, and GC, and quite frequently have defended them from unfair criticism. As a matter of fact, GC is the only auction house I've ever consigned with.
Now, did I mention in my second email that he might consider it "even if was for dealers"? Yes, but my motive was not to have some type of unfair advantage...I was simply thinking about dealers who have 18 coins on their watch list ending across a several hour time span on a sunday night, and its much tougher to keep track of than 1 or 2 coins you want for your collection. Thats all it was, I dint think much of it and it was a spitball "what if this, or what if that..." because I thought that it would BENEFIT EVERYONE. As evidenced by this thread, multiple people said they like to wait until the end to bid, and they've missed coins for whatever reason. Others have said they don't want a proxy feature because they fear they might not be able to win as many coins....
So to emphasize, IM SORRY that I added that stupid disclaimer to my request to consider a proxy feature.....It was a stupid idea, one of those things that you read a little later and say "oh, that was stupid of me". I don't know about everyone else, but I have very stupid ideas frequently as I'm only human. If you all can take a step back and put down your pitchforks, I was grasping at straws because I just took an $8500 beating, and I very stupidly forgot to bid on the one coin I wanted.
Does anyone here read the whole thread for crying out loud? It's almost unfathomable, because I thought I was the the most altruistic, pro collector dealer that I know. Multiple occasions in this thread, I stated how I appreciate the transparency and level playing field thethat the hobby has grown into....but here I am on trial for something I said that was taken out of context and used to throw me under the bus.
It seems like members here often fail to consider any perspective other than their own...
Dan, it's a shame that you were made to feel you needed to explain yourself. Anyone who's paid attention to your posts and/or been in contact with you knows the good that you stand for.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's why I deleted my post.....I went back and read more.....dealers have extra costs if collectors want someone out there to find coins for them. With that said, I still want a even playing field knowing no-one has an advantage on me. I'm already buying 2nd handed coins that have been rejected by someone else, that's enough to worry about.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@leothelyon said:
That's why I deleted my post.....I went back and read more.....dealers have extra costs if collectors want someone out there to find coins for them. With that said, I still want a even playing field knowing no-one has an advantage on me. I'm already buying 2nd handed coins that have been rejected by someone else, that's enough to worry about.
Leo
It doesn't matter if the buyer of a coin is a collector or a dealer - how often do you think someone can buy a coin that hasn't been rejected by someone else?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@leothelyon said:
That's why I deleted my post.....I went back and read more.....dealers have extra costs if collectors want someone out there to find coins for them. With that said, I still want a even playing field knowing no-one has an advantage on me. I'm already buying 2nd handed coins that have been rejected by someone else, that's enough to worry about.
Leo
Unless you buy only new stuff from the mint, all of your coins have been owned by someone else. I do not consider them 2nd handed coins. They have entered the market for various reasons. Even your great collection will be sold in the future unless you have it buried with you.
Dan. There are actually situations (via auctions) where there can be entirely different treatment for dealers vs. collectors. And, not necessarily better for dealers. It could go either way. I’ve seen this myriad times over the past 40+ years of watching the evolution of the coin auction process. Happy to provide you a summary of the benefits and burdens of being a collector vs. a dealer via auctions anytime. Just give me a call.
Hence, you asking about a benefit for dealers only in this particular case did not turn you into a villain in any way, shape or form. And, I believe Ian’s reply to you was not intended to suggest that either. And, if a collector wants to hurl an attack at you for literally anything, you just need to develop “thicker skin”. Heck, I was literally attacked here weekly on these boards from 2001 - 2006 for arguing the virtues of “modern crap”. That “crap” included coins like the 1975 No S Dime where I was told the public would literally find another dozen or two of them “soon” and only a moron (perhaps I am paraphrasing the point) would buy a coin like that for $50,000 or whatever it was at the time. Now some of the “modern crap” is literally the hottest coins in the entire U.S. coin universe! 🤣
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@leothelyon said:
That's why I deleted my post.....I went back and read more.....dealers have extra costs if collectors want someone out there to find coins for them. With that said, I still want a even playing field knowing no-one has an advantage on me. I'm already buying 2nd handed coins that have been rejected by someone else, that's enough to worry about.
Leo
Unless you buy only new stuff from the mint, all of your coins have been owned by someone else. I do not consider them 2nd handed coins. They have entered the market for various reasons. Even your great collection will be sold in the future unless you have it buried with you.
Even buying from the mint doesn't mean you're immune from rejects these days.
@Floridafacelifter said:
I can’t remember if HA did this in the past but today they notified me that my Live Proxy bid for Thursday’s auction has been outbid.
Isn’t that weird (?) it’s like an auction within an auction and they’re letting me know that when it goes live my Proxy bid is going to lose. Sort of defeats the purpose of a Proxy bid right (?!?) because now I know!
And then if I raise my Proxy bid they’re going to tell the other bidder!
Are you sure that was a live proxy and not the pre-bid?
@ianrussell said:
Thanks Dan. There's many reasons why we don't have a delayed proxy system, even though it would almost be unique in the auction arena for auctions with a hard close. Bidders like different ways - I can ask 100 bidders, and receive ten different ideas on how auctions should end - each which suits the person I am asking. Some people like the HA way of ending one lot after another, others like the GC way with a hard close. Some would like the option to end an auction immediately the second they are interested in it. :-)
We do have a system that will send you a text message 10 minutes before the auction will end - will that help in the case you're forgetting to bid?
You did email me a suggestion to allow only dealers some kind of special feature - that is not something we would ever consider - we built GC for everyone.
Ian
I sold some coins last week for a profit, am I a dealer now? What if I subscribe to the Greysheet. Or do I need a website. Maybe I just proclaim myself to be a dealer and that’s it.
Any dealer who needs to buy at auction and mark it up to a collector base as a primary means of sourcing inventory isn’t adding any value. In the past the friction was much greater…printed catalogs with monochrome plates or no plates at all.
I’m disappointed that such a suggestion was made.
I'm disappointed that you ran with the headline, and didn't consider that my side of the story might read differently. This thread wasn't supposed to be about me, but now that it is, let me clarify some things. I have a business License, Tax ID, brick and mortar office location, a full time employee, a dealer insurance policy, and a few other things. I' AD for CAC, Roundtable, and soon PCGS...so I think I'm qualified as a real dealer, right? Does that mean you have to have all those things to be a dealer? Not necessarily, no. There is a spectrum of "dealer", and there really isnt an official barrier to entry. That said, I dont like doing things half assed so I went all in.
But yes, If you wanted to be a dealer you very well could, you certainly have the knowledge for it...but i doubt that you'd want to. I know I don't have to explain all of this, but this thread has displayed that there's no shortage of angst against dealers, specifically with auction participation. I think that Im in a unique position because I've now been on both sides of the isle, and many of the feelings I used to have towards dealers have turned out to have been unwarranted.
To clarify one thing, I NEVER said that auctions were my primary source of coins....I don't know what gave you that idea, but MAYBE 10-15% of my inventory, at MOST, is sourced from auctions. The rest of it comes from an array of sources. Collectors, wholesalers, other dealers, etc.
It's easy to sell nice coins, but its no walk in the park to consistently buy nice inventory at levels where I can make money. At any given time I might be watching 100 coins between all the auction sites, but the thought process is much different than when youre a collector. The prices that I offer my inventory at are the prices that I consider to be FMV, and if someone buys the coin, then I was right.
You say that a dealer who buys a coin at auction "Isn't adding any value", but that's a very myopic viewpoint, and it doesn't make sense. That would mean that every coin that sells at auction always sells for its full value, and we know that not to be true. Coins slip through the cracks, people forget to bid, theres a multitude of reasons why a coin may not achieve its true FMV, and a good dealer is able to recognize and select coins that could be resold for 10% higher while still being a fair price. Using your logic, does that mean car dealers cant add value to cars they win in auction? How about art dealers, do they add value to the paintings, or do they just know that the market value of the painting X and they were able to pay .9x?
Heres the thing- we are all here on a coin forum and many of us are advanced collectors. We have extensive libraries, we spend a lot of time reading, studying, sorting through auctions....we go to great lengths to find joy in our collecting. My point is that we are coin weenies, and astute collectors like you or me do not represent the entire collector base. There are thousands of collectors who dont pay attention to auctions, and they dont spend hours every week researching coins. They just want to buy nice coins and they don't care that a coin sold for less a few months ago.
I work 12 hour days fairly often, I'm glued to my computer monitoring the facebook groups, something nice gets posted there you have about 5 minutes before its gone. Im sorting through other dealers inventories, and wading through all the current options filling out my watch list. I know that you do this too, but Im always studying reference guides, auction catalogues, the whole 9 yards, same as you. Traveling around the country to all of these shows, away from home for 3-4 days at a time where I spend tens of thousands every year to put myself where the coins are. Making dozens of connections, plenty of courtesy purchases to help forge relationships that could lead to me being offered the type of coins I want to offer. Hours on phone calls, emails, and communications with my customers helping them narrow their focus and strategize properly for what they want to do.
I already have 5 figures a month in overhead without the shows when you count the rent, insurance, employee wages, ad spend, grading fees, TPG and trading platform memberships, and thats before you throw in the flights, hotels, table fees etc. The list goes on and on, and we haven't even begun to talk about a few hundred grand in inventory. I am NOT complaining about this, because I knew that I would be making these investments into the business before I was profitable. My point is, it's a functioning business just like any other, and the VALUE is in the service that we provide, not just the coins themselves. It might not have any value to YOU, but many other collectors are not expert level graders, nor are they able to make these type of time commitments to their hobby. I didn't become a coin dealer to make money, I did it because I have a love and passion for coins, and I like to use my knowledge, grading skills, and youthful eyesight to facilitate the joy of collecting for others. Obviously , dealers need to turn a profit, but my average margins on the type of coins I offer is between 5-10% and right now the average is much closer to 5%.
All I'm saying is that maybe the attitudes towards dealers need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, because Im certainly not taking advantage of anyone, nor have I ever. My entire business model is based upon thin margins, higher volume, and being as honest and fair as I can possibly be. My theory in this business, and in ANY business, is that if you do the right thing and treat people how you would want to be treated, the money will follow. We're not all the same, and theres bad characters in any industry.
@Floridafacelifter said:
I can’t remember if HA did this in the past but today they notified me that my Live Proxy bid for Thursday’s auction has been outbid.
Isn’t that weird (?) it’s like an auction within an auction and they’re letting me know that when it goes live my Proxy bid is going to lose. Sort of defeats the purpose of a Proxy bid right (?!?) because now I know!
And then if I raise my Proxy bid they’re going to tell the other bidder!
Are you sure that was a live proxy and not the pre-bid?
You’re absolutely right- I’ve just never had someone pre-bid more than my Proxy bid so I’ve never received a notification like this before!
@jmski52 said: I cant help but wonder if someones proxy bid would have been higher than the final hammer that was only about 83% of GS wholesale. That one stung, but like I mentioned, I also won a really nice coin at what I thought was a bargain, so it definitely goes both ways
Isn't that the point? You can't have it both ways.
A dealer who spends hours every week and chooses some examples to stock, using their knowledge they select a few coins they consider to be premium and offer them at what they consider to be a fair value to the collector. I don't really see an issue with that, provided that the markup is reasonable and the dealer can support the ask price.
Serious collectors spend time deciding how to best deploy their funds, no differently than do dealers. Nothing justifies giving the dealer an advantage over collectors at an auction. if that were the case, it really wouldn't be an auction, would it?
As far as I know, Numismatics is one of the only industries where the professionals have virtually no upper hand on the collector.
And that's a bad thing? In other words, a free market isn't what you would want as a dealer in numismatics. Dealers shouldn't expect to be awarded free money at collectors' expense, simply because they deal in coins. Collectors are frequently told not to expect that their coins will be sold with a gain, and dealers shouldn't expect any differently.
If dealers are truly good at what they do, their stock will be highly-sought and bought. If a dealer is selling at auction, it means that the coin didn't sell through other channels, and collectors shouldn't be penalized for a dealer's misfortune because of swings in the market or lack of demand for the coins he is selling.
You can always bid what you are willing to pay. If you would have paid more, maybe you should have bid more ahead of time? I don't see any problem with the way it works.
I realize some like sniping, or not showing their hand, but I just bid what I am willing to pay and if no one else snipes that high with a last 5 second bid, I still win.
+100%
You should read my previous posts, but to summarize, you got the wrong guy and I never wanted to have an "advantage" over collectors. One tiny thing I said was taken out of context and for some reason everyone focused on that instead of what I was actually saying.
Also, the way you took little snippets of my comments pertaining to different things and arranged them into a straw man is a bad faith way to have a discussion, you must be a journalist. I was never making the point that dealers should have an advantage, that was a reply to another member who said that dealers have resources that collectors don't have. I asked if he could present an example, because over the past 20 years the playing field has been leveled.
You did email me a suggestion to allow only dealers some kind of special feature - that is not something we would ever consider - we built GC for everyone.
While it's a fact of life, as a collector I really don't appreciate seeing dealers winning a coin at auction and then adding what they consider a "reasonable" markup beyond price guides. Dealers have access to resources collectors don't have.
We do? Can you give me an example?
Just for the record, auctions were historically for dealers only. Collectors didn't enter the race until fairly recently. A dealer who spends hours every week and chooses some examples to stock, using their knowledge they select a few coins they consider to be premium and offer them at what they consider to be a fair value to the collector. I don't really see an issue with that, provided that the markup is reasonable and the dealer can support the ask price.
As far as I know, Numismatics is one of the only industries where the professionals have virtually no upper hand on the collector. APRs, Greysheet, all the tools that we have are available to collectors as well. Ever since collectors started participating heavily in auctions, I cant think of any one area where dealers have an advantage.
Not sure about other "collectors" but I've been building my collection primarily through auctions for the last 50 years participating by mail and in person in auctions (especially in the mid 1970s through late 1980s) conducted by several companies including Stack's, Coin Galleries, Kagins, RARCOA, Superior, Steve Ivy (Heritage), Harmer Rooke, Bowers & Ruddy Merena etc., Joseph Lepczyk, Paramount, Goldbergs, and others I can't think of at the moment. I'm sure I'm not the only collector that has done this.
You sound like a seasoned and savvy collector, but no, youre not the only collector who utilized auctions. I wasn't saying that Auctions excluded collectors, I was just saying that the vast majority of bidding was done by dealers.
The point I was making was that it was just a tad ironic that so many collectors are distyurbed that dealers buy coins in auction and mark them up, considering the fact that auctions were historically driven by dealer business. The other point I was making is that dealers in 2024 have little to no advantages over collectors, unlike many other professions. I never said it was a problem, or that I wanted things to be differently.
@ianrussell said:
Thanks Dan. There's many reasons why we don't have a delayed proxy system, even though it would almost be unique in the auction arena for auctions with a hard close. Bidders like different ways - I can ask 100 bidders, and receive ten different ideas on how auctions should end - each which suits the person I am asking. Some people like the HA way of ending one lot after another, others like the GC way with a hard close. Some would like the option to end an auction immediately the second they are interested in it. :-)
We do have a system that will send you a text message 10 minutes before the auction will end - will that help in the case you're forgetting to bid?
You did email me a suggestion to allow only dealers some kind of special feature - that is not something we would ever consider - we built GC for everyone.
Ian
I sold some coins last week for a profit, am I a dealer now? What if I subscribe to the Greysheet. Or do I need a website. Maybe I just proclaim myself to be a dealer and that’s it.
Any dealer who needs to buy at auction and mark it up to a collector base as a primary means of sourcing inventory isn’t adding any value. In the past the friction was much greater…printed catalogs with monochrome plates or no plates at all.
I’m disappointed that such a suggestion was made.
I'm disappointed that you ran with the headline, and didn't consider that my side of the story might read differently. This thread wasn't supposed to be about me, but now that it is, let me clarify some things. I have a business License, Tax ID, brick and mortar office location, a full time employee, a dealer insurance policy, and a few other things. I' AD for CAC, Roundtable, and soon PCGS...so I think I'm qualified as a real dealer, right? Does that mean you have to have all those things to be a dealer? Not necessarily, no. There is a spectrum of "dealer", and there really isnt an official barrier to entry. That said, I dont like doing things half assed so I went all in.
But yes, If you wanted to be a dealer you very well could, you certainly have the knowledge for it...but i doubt that you'd want to. I know I don't have to explain all of this, but this thread has displayed that there's no shortage of angst against dealers, specifically with auction participation. I think that Im in a unique position because I've now been on both sides of the isle, and many of the feelings I used to have towards dealers have turned out to have been unwarranted.
To clarify one thing, I NEVER said that auctions were my primary source of coins....I don't know what gave you that idea, but MAYBE 10-15% of my inventory, at MOST, is sourced from auctions. The rest of it comes from an array of sources. Collectors, wholesalers, other dealers, etc.
It's easy to sell nice coins, but its no walk in the park to consistently buy nice inventory at levels where I can make money. At any given time I might be watching 100 coins between all the auction sites, but the thought process is much different than when youre a collector. The prices that I offer my inventory at are the prices that I consider to be FMV, and if someone buys the coin, then I was right.
You say that a dealer who buys a coin at auction "Isn't adding any value", but that's a very myopic viewpoint, and it doesn't make sense. That would mean that every coin that sells at auction always sells for its full value, and we know that not to be true. Coins slip through the cracks, people forget to bid, theres a multitude of reasons why a coin may not achieve its true FMV, and a good dealer is able to recognize and select coins that could be resold for 10% higher while still being a fair price. Using your logic, does that mean car dealers cant add value to cars they win in auction? How about art dealers, do they add value to the paintings, or do they just know that the market value of the painting X and they were able to pay .9x?
Heres the thing- we are all here on a coin forum and many of us are advanced collectors. We have extensive libraries, we spend a lot of time reading, studying, sorting through auctions....we go to great lengths to find joy in our collecting. My point is that we are coin weenies, and astute collectors like you or me do not represent the entire collector base. There are thousands of collectors who dont pay attention to auctions, and they dont spend hours every week researching coins. They just want to buy nice coins and they don't care that a coin sold for less a few months ago.
I work 12 hour days fairly often, I'm glued to my computer monitoring the facebook groups, something nice gets posted there you have about 5 minutes before its gone. Im sorting through other dealers inventories, and wading through all the current options filling out my watch list. I know that you do this too, but Im always studying reference guides, auction catalogues, the whole 9 yards, same as you. Traveling around the country to all of these shows, away from home for 3-4 days at a time where I spend tens of thousands every year to put myself where the coins are. Making dozens of connections, plenty of courtesy purchases to help forge relationships that could lead to me being offered the type of coins I want to offer. Hours on phone calls, emails, and communications with my customers helping them narrow their focus and strategize properly for what they want to do.
I already have 5 figures a month in overhead without the shows when you count the rent, insurance, employee wages, ad spend, grading fees, TPG and trading platform memberships, and thats before you throw in the flights, hotels, table fees etc. The list goes on and on, and we haven't even begun to talk about a few hundred grand in inventory. I am NOT complaining about this, because I knew that I would be making these investments into the business before I was profitable. My point is, it's a functioning business just like any other, and the VALUE is in the service that we provide, not just the coins themselves. It might not have any value to YOU, but many other collectors are not expert level graders, nor are they able to make these type of time commitments to their hobby. I didn't become a coin dealer to make money, I did it because I have a love and passion for coins, and I like to use my knowledge, grading skills, and youthful eyesight to facilitate the joy of collecting for others. Obviously , dealers need to turn a profit, but my average margins on the type of coins I offer is between 5-10% and right now the average is much closer to 5%.
All I'm saying is that maybe the attitudes towards dealers need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, because Im certainly not taking advantage of anyone, nor have I ever. My entire business model is based upon thin margins, higher volume, and being as honest and fair as I can possibly be. My theory in this business, and in ANY business, is that if you do the right thing and treat people how you would want to be treated, the money will follow. We're not all the same, and theres bad characters in any industry.
My comment was addressed to three things and not a personal attack at you:
If a feature is for dealers only then what constitutes a dealer and where is the line? Especially on a platform marketed as being for everyone.
Increasing the friction in the market to favor of a dealers won’t be enough to make any dealer who requires the friction to be viable, to actually be viable. Sure dealers sell coins from auction. Of course. But I can’t think of any successful dealer in US coins that relies on buying at highly covered auctions and marking them up as their primary business strategy. There is too little friction and therefore little opportunity for value add. The is different in art and cars and the other markets you note. Adding friction is what I read as being suggested in Ian’s comment.
As I said, disappointing that this was a suggestion to create a tool for dealers only.
@MFeld said:
Dan, it's a shame that you were made to feel you needed to explain yourself. Anyone who's paid attention to your posts and/or been in contact with you knows the good that you stand for.
+1 and many others
The sad fact is that some posters here are quick on the draw with insults and insinuations.
But at least Leo was big enough to delete his slander.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
@ianrussell said:
Thanks Dan. There's many reasons why we don't have a delayed proxy system, even though it would almost be unique in the auction arena for auctions with a hard close. Bidders like different ways - I can ask 100 bidders, and receive ten different ideas on how auctions should end - each which suits the person I am asking. Some people like the HA way of ending one lot after another, others like the GC way with a hard close. Some would like the option to end an auction immediately the second they are interested in it. :-)
We do have a system that will send you a text message 10 minutes before the auction will end - will that help in the case you're forgetting to bid?
You did email me a suggestion to allow only dealers some kind of special feature - that is not something we would ever consider - we built GC for everyone.
Ian
I sold some coins last week for a profit, am I a dealer now? What if I subscribe to the Greysheet. Or do I need a website. Maybe I just proclaim myself to be a dealer and that’s it.
Any dealer who needs to buy at auction and mark it up to a collector base as a primary means of sourcing inventory isn’t adding any value. In the past the friction was much greater…printed catalogs with monochrome plates or no plates at all.
I’m disappointed that such a suggestion was made.
I'm disappointed that you ran with the headline, and didn't consider that my side of the story might read differently. This thread wasn't supposed to be about me, but now that it is, let me clarify some things. I have a business License, Tax ID, brick and mortar office location, a full time employee, a dealer insurance policy, and a few other things. I' AD for CAC, Roundtable, and soon PCGS...so I think I'm qualified as a real dealer, right? Does that mean you have to have all those things to be a dealer? Not necessarily, no. There is a spectrum of "dealer", and there really isnt an official barrier to entry. That said, I dont like doing things half assed so I went all in.
But yes, If you wanted to be a dealer you very well could, you certainly have the knowledge for it...but i doubt that you'd want to. I know I don't have to explain all of this, but this thread has displayed that there's no shortage of angst against dealers, specifically with auction participation. I think that Im in a unique position because I've now been on both sides of the isle, and many of the feelings I used to have towards dealers have turned out to have been unwarranted.
To clarify one thing, I NEVER said that auctions were my primary source of coins....I don't know what gave you that idea, but MAYBE 10-15% of my inventory, at MOST, is sourced from auctions. The rest of it comes from an array of sources. Collectors, wholesalers, other dealers, etc.
It's easy to sell nice coins, but its no walk in the park to consistently buy nice inventory at levels where I can make money. At any given time I might be watching 100 coins between all the auction sites, but the thought process is much different than when youre a collector. The prices that I offer my inventory at are the prices that I consider to be FMV, and if someone buys the coin, then I was right.
You say that a dealer who buys a coin at auction "Isn't adding any value", but that's a very myopic viewpoint, and it doesn't make sense. That would mean that every coin that sells at auction always sells for its full value, and we know that not to be true. Coins slip through the cracks, people forget to bid, theres a multitude of reasons why a coin may not achieve its true FMV, and a good dealer is able to recognize and select coins that could be resold for 10% higher while still being a fair price. Using your logic, does that mean car dealers cant add value to cars they win in auction? How about art dealers, do they add value to the paintings, or do they just know that the market value of the painting X and they were able to pay .9x?
Heres the thing- we are all here on a coin forum and many of us are advanced collectors. We have extensive libraries, we spend a lot of time reading, studying, sorting through auctions....we go to great lengths to find joy in our collecting. My point is that we are coin weenies, and astute collectors like you or me do not represent the entire collector base. There are thousands of collectors who dont pay attention to auctions, and they dont spend hours every week researching coins. They just want to buy nice coins and they don't care that a coin sold for less a few months ago.
I work 12 hour days fairly often, I'm glued to my computer monitoring the facebook groups, something nice gets posted there you have about 5 minutes before its gone. Im sorting through other dealers inventories, and wading through all the current options filling out my watch list. I know that you do this too, but Im always studying reference guides, auction catalogues, the whole 9 yards, same as you. Traveling around the country to all of these shows, away from home for 3-4 days at a time where I spend tens of thousands every year to put myself where the coins are. Making dozens of connections, plenty of courtesy purchases to help forge relationships that could lead to me being offered the type of coins I want to offer. Hours on phone calls, emails, and communications with my customers helping them narrow their focus and strategize properly for what they want to do.
I already have 5 figures a month in overhead without the shows when you count the rent, insurance, employee wages, ad spend, grading fees, TPG and trading platform memberships, and thats before you throw in the flights, hotels, table fees etc. The list goes on and on, and we haven't even begun to talk about a few hundred grand in inventory. I am NOT complaining about this, because I knew that I would be making these investments into the business before I was profitable. My point is, it's a functioning business just like any other, and the VALUE is in the service that we provide, not just the coins themselves. It might not have any value to YOU, but many other collectors are not expert level graders, nor are they able to make these type of time commitments to their hobby. I didn't become a coin dealer to make money, I did it because I have a love and passion for coins, and I like to use my knowledge, grading skills, and youthful eyesight to facilitate the joy of collecting for others. Obviously , dealers need to turn a profit, but my average margins on the type of coins I offer is between 5-10% and right now the average is much closer to 5%.
All I'm saying is that maybe the attitudes towards dealers need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, because Im certainly not taking advantage of anyone, nor have I ever. My entire business model is based upon thin margins, higher volume, and being as honest and fair as I can possibly be. My theory in this business, and in ANY business, is that if you do the right thing and treat people how you would want to be treated, the money will follow. We're not all the same, and theres bad characters in any industry.
My comment was addressed to three things and not a personal attack at you:
If a feature is for dealers only then what constitutes a dealer and where is the line? Especially on a platform marketed as being for everyone.
Increasing the friction in the market to favor of a dealers won’t be enough to make any dealer who requires the friction to be viable, to actually be viable. Sure dealers sell coins from auction. Of course. But I can’t think of any successful dealer in US coins that relies on buying at auction and marking them up as their primary business strategy. There is too little friction and therefore little opportunity for value add. The is different in art and cars and the other markets you note. Adding friction is what I read as being suggested in Ian’s comment.
> 3. As I said, disappointing that this was a suggestion to create a tool for dealers only.
Your questions are all made on the basis that it my suggestion to "create a tool for dealers only". If you read my essays above, I've been trying to explain that that is FALSE . The original "suggestion" was to just enable proxy bidding, period. When I added the "even if it was dealers only" disclaimer it wasn't about giving anyone an advantage , it's because dealers have dozens of coins to watch for and often times there spread out over a several hour period of time on a sunday night.
If you would replace the words "dealers only" with "people who bid on a lot of coins"... or "people who ask for the feature", that is what I had in mind. The purpose of this discussion, for me, was to gain insight into bidding behavior determine if some coins would sell for more money if there was a proxy feature. Multiple comments said "yes", and multiple comments (I think one was edited now) said "No, I dont like proxy bidding because then I wouldn't win as many coins"....If read between the lines, that pretty much answers my question.
While I would like to avoid the primary topic of this thread (proxy bids), I am somewhat surprised that @ianrussell has not addressed an underlying theme - that of disappointing results on holiday weekends. This subject has been raised in the past and I believe Ian has stated GC has not seen any noticeable diminishment in prices realized on holiday weekend auctions.
Were the results Dan experienced on the Labor Day weekend auctions just coincidence or did the holiday actually soften participation and therefore, demand and sales prices?
I would surmise that ending an auction on a holiday shouldn't theoretically affect anything as the coins are posted for 1-4 weeks and you can enter a max bid at any time. The format omits the need to "be there" when the auction closes. Now of course this doesn't really accommodate auction snipers. But in the end it all works out the same. If you're willing to pay $x in the last 5 seconds of an auction, you should be willing to enter that amount 3 days before the auction if you're not going to be there to snipe. It may cost you more, but you were willing to pay that amount anyway... The only thing it doesn't help for is spontaneous I'll-bid-more-than-planned-to bidding which I'm not sure how much of that there really is because the hard close really doesn't favor that approach.
@pointfivezero said:
While I would like to avoid the primary topic of this thread (proxy bids), I am somewhat surprised that @ianrussell has not addressed an underlying theme - that of disappointing results on holiday weekends. This subject has been raised in the past and I believe Ian has stated GC has not seen any noticeable diminishment in prices realized on holiday weekend auctions.
Were the results Dan experienced on the Labor Day weekend auctions just coincidence or did the holiday actually soften participation and therefore, demand and sales prices?
Tim
How much of the weak results are individual cases or the market softening for certain items? I have lost plenty of auctions to strong bidders on holiday weekends. The items matter too-you will see different results for low end, middle tier, and high end (where just one person not paying attention could make a large difference).
It certainly would be interesting to see the data to have a better idea of how the holidays impact bidding (even if no data is perfect, it should still give us some insight). If anyone is feeling adventurous, they could pick out several coins/series and do a small comparison themselves.
@davewesen said:
Since there is a fixed close, I suspect a sniping program could be written like those used on eBay.
What do you mean by 'proxy' feature?
What is preventing you from entering your maximum bid a week before Sunday close?
A "proxy bid" is one that you can put on a separate book that is not exercised until the lot opens in the auction. You can increase it, decrease it or cancel it all together. No one who is bidding on-line knows that you have placed it. It can't be lower than the current on-line bid obviously.
Most auction lots are sold at the time the lot opens. It is rare that there is a high bid when the lot is opened that will be successful. The proxy is like the eBay snipe, except those who have been outbid by it can bid again. I hate the eBay snipe, and will not participate in their auctions because of it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
A lot of bidders have developed a "sniping" attitude and believe they will get a better price if they wait till the last second, without even knowing what hidden max bids exist.
In some ways I agree this approach might result in lower sale pricing, because the price "seen" up till the end looks like a below market price, so it seems like a good deal to toss a bid out in a snipe program or to get reminded to watch every auction in real time and enter a last second bid. The risk to the seller is that people "forget" to bid at the end or are too busy to really enter the bid they are willing to pay.
If enough people get distracted by football, holidays, or too many auctions ending close to the same time, they may fumble their last second bid, and the person who had a higher max bid much earlier, will win.
This approach can hurt sellers, as the buyers do not "see" the competitors higher bids like in a live auction, where everyone "shows their hand" and you have 5-10 seconds to bid higher or pass. This live auction encourages some to bid higher under stress, to "win".
It is also a logical reason why some other live other auction houses charge 20% fees, and GC charges 12.5%.
You have a choice of fees and formats. Use them wisely. Both approaches can have advantages depending on what you are buying or selling.
@pointfivezero said:
While I would like to avoid the primary topic of this thread (proxy bids), I am somewhat surprised that @ianrussell has not addressed an underlying theme - that of disappointing results on holiday weekends. This subject has been raised in the past and I believe Ian has stated GC has not seen any noticeable diminishment in prices realized on holiday weekend auctions.
Were the results Dan experienced on the Labor Day weekend auctions just coincidence or did the holiday actually soften participation and therefore, demand and sales prices?
Tim
How much of the weak results are individual cases or the market softening for certain items? I have lost plenty of auctions to strong bidders on holiday weekends. The items matter too-you will see different results for low end, middle tier, and high end (where just one person not paying attention could make a large difference).
It certainly would be interesting to see the data to have a better idea of how the holidays impact bidding (even if no data is perfect, it should still give us some insight). If anyone is feeling adventurous, they could pick out several coins/series and do a small comparison themselves.
These are my questions as well. Hopefully, Ian will respond when and if he sees this post and has time to respond. I do remember a similar thread on this subject in regard to a July 4th weekend GC auction, IIRC.
@pointfivezero said:
While I would like to avoid the primary topic of this thread (proxy bids), I am somewhat surprised that @ianrussell has not addressed an underlying theme - that of disappointing results on holiday weekends. This subject has been raised in the past and I believe Ian has stated GC has not seen any noticeable diminishment in prices realized on holiday weekend auctions.
Were the results Dan experienced on the Labor Day weekend auctions just coincidence or did the holiday actually soften participation and therefore, demand and sales prices?
Tim
How much of the weak results are individual cases or the market softening for certain items? I have lost plenty of auctions to strong bidders on holiday weekends. The items matter too-you will see different results for low end, middle tier, and high end (where just one person not paying attention could make a large difference).
It certainly would be interesting to see the data to have a better idea of how the holidays impact bidding (even if no data is perfect, it should still give us some insight). If anyone is feeling adventurous, they could pick out several coins/series and do a small comparison themselves.
These are my questions as well. Hopefully, Ian will respond when and if he sees this post and has time to respond. I do remember a similar thread on this subject in regard to a July 4th weekend GC auction, IIRC.
@davewesen said:
Since there is a fixed close, I suspect a sniping program could be written like those used on eBay.
What do you mean by 'proxy' feature?
What is preventing you from entering your maximum bid a week before Sunday close?
A "proxy bid" is one that you can put on a separate book that is not exercised until the lot opens in the auction. You can increase it, decrease it or cancel it all together. No one who is bidding on-line knows that you have placed it. It can't be lower than the current on-line bid obviously.
Most auction lots are sold at the time the lot opens. It is rare that there is a high bid when the lot is opened that will be successful. The proxy is like the eBay snipe, except those who have been outbid by it can bid again. I hate the eBay snipe, and will not participate in their auctions because of it.
When the auction has the 'stated close' time, when would the lot 'open' for proxy bids, at the close? How is this any different than an eBay 'snipe' program. There is no 'extended bidding' if a bid placed during last minute of auction.
Computer or internet issues can foil any best laid plan.
@Goldminers said:
A lot of bidders have developed a "sniping" attitude and believe they will get a better price if they wait till the last second, without even knowing what hidden max bids exist.
In some ways I agree this approach might result in lower sale pricing, because the price "seen" up till the end looks like a below market price, so it seems like a good deal to toss a bid out in a snipe program or to get reminded to watch every auction in real time and enter a last-second bid. The risk to the seller is that people "forget" to bid at the end or are too busy to really enter the bid they are willing to pay.
If enough people get distracted by football, holidays, or too many auctions ending close to the same time, they may fumble their last second bid, and the person who had a higher max bid much earlier, will win.
This approach can hurt sellers, as the buyers do not "see" the competitors higher bids like in a live auction, where everyone "shows their hand" and you have 5-10 seconds to bid higher or pass. This live auction encourages some to bid higher under stress, to "win".
It is also a logical reason why some other live other auction houses charge 20% fees, and GC charges 12.5%.
You have a choice of fees and formats. Use them wisely. Both approaches can have advantages depending on what you are buying or selling.
I feel like I agree with your comment, but I'm going to try to simplify it for my own digestion, so correct me if I'm wrong.
In essence, it sounds like you agree that hard close auctions encourage sniping behavior. It also sounds like you agree that without the actual "snipe" function, there's a risk of the potential bidders getting distracted, which in turn, leads to lower sale prices overall. Do I have that right? The part I don't understand is the logic behind the different Buyers premiums, can you clarify that?
@SIowhand said:
15 minutes with Python will sort that out for you
Heck, if you don’t know how, chatgpt can probably write it for you.
Edited to add: just checked ChatGPT: a one sentence description gets you 95% there. I’m guessing with a better crafted question, it will get you all the way there.
This is one of the funniest things, no one even gave your comment any consideration, but I bet that most don't realize that there's several tech savvy numismatists out there that are already "sniping" on GC. I guess it cant be that big of a "disadvantage" if we don't notice it right? lol
The smart guys fly under the radar and just build it themselves, only the dumb ones like me try to talk about it instead
Not to hijack your thread Dan, but is there a Live countdown option on GC? Am I doing things wrong or do you have to refresh to see when it's close to the end? I missed 2 coins tonight because of my own habit of wanting to snipe at the last 4-5 seconds. It also didn't help that the coins I was bidding on, were within a few seconds of ending from each other.
I at least won 1 of the 4 I had my eyes on but would have ponied up if my refresh didn't freeze on 2 others.
Try having multiple pages open at once.
There is a somewhat newer feature on GC which allows you to bid on multiple items in your watch list with one click. No more need for multiple pages or tabs open. Makes it so you don't miss out when auctions are ending within seconds of one another. Just stay away from any that I'm bidding on
This thread is a disaster, but to answer the original question…no. I’d probably bid on fewer coins. I like the simplicity of GC, the “Sunday night event” feel, and I find the myriad bidding methods and structures on other platforms complicated.
Funny you bring this up. I was just talking to my son about the no S dime. He said he expected a “huge fight at the auction.” I had to explain the format to him, like eBay really. His idea was for coins under like $5k to go by the current method. Over $5k should have the regular format and a one minute extension from every last bid. I can’t recall the term for this auction type?
Of course, the $5k was an arbitrary number, but I liked his thinking. Then again, the chance of my me buying a coin over $5k is less than Dan lending me his beaver to toy with. So, what say should I have? Nada I guess. Ok, this might’ve turned into a rant. 🤣
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
FWIW, a few weeks ago I did ask Ian to make re-bidding easier and he said they were going to work on it. That is, when you go to place the bid and another higher bid has been entered in the mean time, you get a notice page and then you have to navigate back to the item to rebid. I also asked him to skip/waive the bid confirmation in the last two minutes of an auction.
Every move has a counter measure. The sniping approach really only works against other snipers. The approach has served me well but it's also cost me a few times when I was willing to go higher and someone else had a high bid in but I didn't have enough time to enter another bid. Oh well, that's the fun of auctions.
@Goldminers said:
A lot of bidders have developed a "sniping" attitude and believe they will get a better price if they wait till the last second, without even knowing what hidden max bids exist.
In some ways I agree this approach might result in lower sale pricing, because the price "seen" up till the end looks like a below market price, so it seems like a good deal to toss a bid out in a snipe program or to get reminded to watch every auction in real time and enter a last-second bid. The risk to the seller is that people "forget" to bid at the end or are too busy to really enter the bid they are willing to pay.
If enough people get distracted by football, holidays, or too many auctions ending close to the same time, they may fumble their last second bid, and the person who had a higher max bid much earlier, will win.
This approach can hurt sellers, as the buyers do not "see" the competitors higher bids like in a live auction, where everyone "shows their hand" and you have 5-10 seconds to bid higher or pass. This live auction encourages some to bid higher under stress, to "win".
It is also a logical reason why some other live other auction houses charge 20% fees, and GC charges 12.5%.
You have a choice of fees and formats. Use them wisely. Both approaches can have advantages depending on what you are buying or selling.
I feel like I agree with your comment, but I'm going to try to simplify it for my own digestion, so correct me if I'm wrong.
In essence, it sounds like you agree that hard close auctions encourage sniping behavior. It also sounds like you agree that without the actual "snipe" function, there's a risk of the potential bidders getting distracted, which in turn, leads to lower sale prices overall. Do I have that right? The part I don't understand is the logic behind the different Buyers premiums, can you clarify that?
Under the current rules, knowing several will disagree, IMO, one place is currently a little bit advantageous for buying, and another one for selling. It matters to some degree what quality or scarcity item is being sold, and who will be in attendance, but that is my general expectation.
The logic for different selling premiums should be obvious to you based on your questions about auction methodologies.
@MFeld said:
Dan, it's a shame that you were made to feel you needed to explain yourself. Anyone who's paid attention to your posts and/or been in contact with you knows the good that you stand for.
+1 and many others
The sad fact is that some posters here are quick on the draw with insults and insinuations.
But at least Leo was big enough to delete his slander.
Thank you gentlemen, i appreciate the support. I even appreciate Leo for recanting what he said.
, I wanted to explain myself, because the anti-dealer sentiment is deep rooted within this forum, and the collector base as a whole. Just the mere notion of a perceived advantage for dealers, which wasn't even my intention, and it’s like a dog whistle. Everyone went to clutch their pearls and cry foul.
@davewesen said:
Since there is a fixed close, I suspect a sniping program could be written like those used on eBay.
What do you mean by 'proxy' feature?
What is preventing you from entering your maximum bid a week before Sunday close?
A "proxy bid" is one that you can put on a separate book that is not exercised until the lot opens in the auction. You can increase it, decrease it or cancel it all together. No one who is bidding on-line knows that you have placed it. It can't be lower than the current on-line bid obviously.
Most auction lots are sold at the time the lot opens. It is rare that there is a high bid when the lot is opened that will be successful. The proxy is like the eBay snipe, except those who have been outbid by it can bid again. I hate the eBay snipe, and will not participate in their auctions because of it.
When the auction has the 'stated close' time, when would the lot 'open' for proxy bids, at the close? How is this any different than an eBay 'snipe' program. There is no 'extended bidding' if a bid placed during last minute of auction.
Computer or internet issues can foil any best laid plan.
Good question, and I had to put some thought into this too, and there's 2 ways you can go about it, while still maintaining a hard close format.
All proxies would execute with moments to spare, 30 seconds or less.
All proxies would execute with ample time for even more bidding, maybe at the 5-10 minute mark or something?
The bids would be stored with the auction houses internal system, on their servers, so internet issues on our end wouldn't affect the execution of the proxies.
This is getting off topic, but IMO the best and fairest auction system is a soft close where any action extends the time by a minute or more whenever there is action in the last fast minutes. This system gives every interested buyer the chance to bid again/higher, and the seller knows they got the most out of the auction audience and allows for true market price discovery. I know for a fact several coins I've won at GC would have gone higher without the hard close. Sure it benefits me but the seller loses out.
@ProofCollection said:
FWIW, a few weeks ago I did ask Ian to make re-bidding easier and he said they were going to work on it. That is, when you go to place the bid and another higher bid has been entered in the mean time, you get a notice page and then you have to navigate back to the item to rebid. I also asked him to skip/waive the bid confirmation in the last two minutes of an auction.
Every move has a counter measure. The sniping approach really only works against other snipers. The approach has served me well but it's also cost me a few times when I was willing to go higher and someone else had a high bid in but I didn't have enough time to enter another bid. Oh well, that's the fun of auctions.
Lunch time at a busy restaurant in the ritzy section of the Jersey Shore. Heavy set lady near the front door asks the waiter to turn down the air conditioning as it was way too cold. Waiter nods an ok. Minutes later an older woman a few tables away complains about the terrible heat and asks the waiter to turn up the AC. He agrees. This goes back and forth between the two tables for 15 minutes
Gentleman overhearing this, comments to the waiter that he admires his patience and asks how he resolves the AC issue. Waiter responds "easy, we don't have air conditioning."
Comments
I can’t remember if HA did this in the past but today they notified me that my Live Proxy bid for Thursday’s auction has been outbid.
Isn’t that weird (?) it’s like an auction within an auction and they’re letting me know that when it goes live my Proxy bid is going to lose. Sort of defeats the purpose of a Proxy bid right (?!?) because now I know!
And then if I raise my Proxy bid they’re going to tell the other bidder!
@PeakRarities is as upstanding and trustworthy of a person there is. He is well known outside of Jefferson Nickel circles.
Edited to remove screenshot of unwarranted and insulting post.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Slimeball no
Good friend yes
Why didn't you highlight the good I said about the guy?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Personally, it wouldn’t make a difference. Like others, I tend to place my bid for the amount I’m comfortable paying. Or, if I’m available when the auction is live, I’ll wait & snipe in the last 10-15 seconds.
I use proxy bids @ HA sometimes, but it’s just not essential for me.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Calling somebody a slimeball trumps saying something nice.
"I think that 'Member X' is a crook but he has a really nice collection. " Which part of that sentence stands out to you?
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Collectors sent in coins to be graded through dealers at one time only to learn other dealers would mark them up higher only to sell back to collectors? Which brings up another interesting dilemma, there are only 100 collectors or less out of the 100,000 or more collectors that are out there in most of the catagories for Registry Sets for Jefferson nickels and maybe only about a dozen or so, maybe 14-15 of the top sets because after that the numbers and averages really start to taper off.........are PCGS coin values on coins being set by these very few people? Sure, not every collector has a Registry set but if they're stuck with paying what the price guide says......why wouldn't they have one.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Sigh....In an attempt to stay on topic I decided not to address that part of Ian's comment at that time, because I didn't want the focus to be on our conversation. Perhaps that wasn't the right decision, but allow me to set the record straight and try my best not to ramble. I
First off, some context is crucial to understand the nature of that "suggestion"-
This last Saturday before Labor Day I sent Ian an email why GC did not have a proxy function. I was watching these Fairmont coins and the prices were very very, low for coins that were ending in 24 hours. In addition, I had 3 coins gold coins ending the next day at cost me a total cost of about $20,000. I thought too myself; "Hmm, I wonder if Labor day might negatively affect bidding?"
So I sent Ian an email asking why there wasn't a proxy feature on GC, and I was asking for EVERYONE, not just dealers. He explained that it would potentially make it riskier because it would discourage people from bidding early, which is something I didn't think about. I responded back that I never considered that, and that it was a valid point. I then thanked him for his time.
I hate that I have to now dig into our conversation, but It seems necessary now to make my intentions clear. The next day, I took about a $3000 loss on on those three coins. One was a MS67 saint that hammered for $4000 less than it hammered for last year. I wasn't crying about it though... that's the nature of the beast, and made a mental note to myself not to let coins like that end on a holiday.
Last night, I had another 44k (cost) in coins that we're ending on GC Now a lot of these coins were in my collection but I wanted to move on from them and they didn't garner much interest on the website. These arent ugly coins, and one of them was a scarce, attractive, and original double eagle that I bought for inventory. The collector was asking 16k-, CPG retail was 20,500, PCGS guide was 22,500, and the comps looked strong so I didn't even haggle with him and I wrote a check. I listed it at 17,500 and continued to lower the price as it sat until finally I realized i had made a mistake and bought a "Fairmonted" trap coin where the market was taking a nosedive in real time. When I couldnt get rid of it at cost, I sent it to GC and figured I might lose some money, but i wasn't expecting it to hammer for 13.3k. The other coins were in the 5-10k range, and I took losses on all, of them ranging from 20%-60 %. Total damage for the night was about -8500, ouch.
Because In the midst of this slaughter, I had realized I totally forgot to bid on the coin I wanted, and now I was pretty bummed out. Now why am I telling you this? I'm not looking for sympathy here, I'm a big boy and I learned some valuable lessons about trap coins and stale material. No big deal, I'll write it off and keep on moving.
The "proxy" feature entered my mind again, for several obvious reasons. I thought it was an interesting topic, and I wanted to know if anyone else had similar experiences. After I posted it, I thought I'd let Ian know as a courtesy in case he wanted to add to the discussion. However, I was a tired and I was lazy in my writing, and admittedly it might have read like I was being critical. As we know, context can get lost in writing and its easy to come across the wrong way. I mentioned that I thought it might be beneficial to consider the proxy feature. He replied back in a way that led me to believe the way interpreted that as me saying "I don't agree with your reasoning, and Im starting a thread to have a debate about it", when in my head I meant "I understand your position, but I'm really curious if others also forget to bid, and I wanted to let you know about the thread I posted". I emailed him back 7 minutes later to clarify my intentions and apologize If he took it differently, and I offered to edit my post if he thought it made him sound bad or something.
Thats when I came back to the forum and had seen that he already commented, and said that I "made a suggestion for dealers only...."
Which is disappointing, because I thought Ian would have known from our past dealings that I mean no harm. I was just trying to gain some insight about bidding behavior. Anyone who knows me, or honestly has just paid attention to what I post, knows that Im an analytical person who puts a lot of thought into things and a information such as this could help me with my decision making in the future. Ive ALWAYS spoken very highly of Ian, and GC, and quite frequently have defended them from unfair criticism. As a matter of fact, GC is the only auction house I've ever consigned with.
Now, did I mention in my second email that he might consider it "even if was for dealers"? Yes, but my motive was not to have some type of unfair advantage...I was simply thinking about dealers who have 18 coins on their watch list ending across a several hour time span on a sunday night, and its much tougher to keep track of than 1 or 2 coins you want for your collection. Thats all it was, I dint think much of it and it was a spitball "what if this, or what if that..." because I thought that it would BENEFIT EVERYONE. As evidenced by this thread, multiple people said they like to wait until the end to bid, and they've missed coins for whatever reason. Others have said they don't want a proxy feature because they fear they might not be able to win as many coins....
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So to emphasize, IM SORRY that I added that stupid disclaimer to my request to consider a proxy feature.....It was a stupid idea, one of those things that you read a little later and say "oh, that was stupid of me". I don't know about everyone else, but I have very stupid ideas frequently as I'm only human. If you all can take a step back and put down your pitchforks, I was grasping at straws because I just took an $8500 beating, and I very stupidly forgot to bid on the one coin I wanted.
Does anyone here read the whole thread for crying out loud? It's almost unfathomable, because I thought I was the the most altruistic, pro collector dealer that I know. Multiple occasions in this thread, I stated how I appreciate the transparency and level playing field thethat the hobby has grown into....but here I am on trial for something I said that was taken out of context and used to throw me under the bus.
It seems like members here often fail to consider any perspective other than their own...
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Dan, it's a shame that you were made to feel you needed to explain yourself. Anyone who's paid attention to your posts and/or been in contact with you knows the good that you stand for.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's why I deleted my post.....I went back and read more.....dealers have extra costs if collectors want someone out there to find coins for them. With that said, I still want a even playing field knowing no-one has an advantage on me. I'm already buying 2nd handed coins that have been rejected by someone else, that's enough to worry about.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
It doesn't matter if the buyer of a coin is a collector or a dealer - how often do you think someone can buy a coin that hasn't been rejected by someone else?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm seeing fewer and fewer mustard stains on the bourse; it doesn't bode well...
Unless you buy only new stuff from the mint, all of your coins have been owned by someone else. I do not consider them 2nd handed coins. They have entered the market for various reasons. Even your great collection will be sold in the future unless you have it buried with you.
Dan. There are actually situations (via auctions) where there can be entirely different treatment for dealers vs. collectors. And, not necessarily better for dealers. It could go either way. I’ve seen this myriad times over the past 40+ years of watching the evolution of the coin auction process. Happy to provide you a summary of the benefits and burdens of being a collector vs. a dealer via auctions anytime. Just give me a call.
Hence, you asking about a benefit for dealers only in this particular case did not turn you into a villain in any way, shape or form. And, I believe Ian’s reply to you was not intended to suggest that either. And, if a collector wants to hurl an attack at you for literally anything, you just need to develop “thicker skin”. Heck, I was literally attacked here weekly on these boards from 2001 - 2006 for arguing the virtues of “modern crap”. That “crap” included coins like the 1975 No S Dime where I was told the public would literally find another dozen or two of them “soon” and only a moron (perhaps I am paraphrasing the point) would buy a coin like that for $50,000 or whatever it was at the time. Now some of the “modern crap” is literally the hottest coins in the entire U.S. coin universe! 🤣
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Even buying from the mint doesn't mean you're immune from rejects these days.
Are you sure that was a live proxy and not the pre-bid?
I'm disappointed that you ran with the headline, and didn't consider that my side of the story might read differently. This thread wasn't supposed to be about me, but now that it is, let me clarify some things. I have a business License, Tax ID, brick and mortar office location, a full time employee, a dealer insurance policy, and a few other things. I' AD for CAC, Roundtable, and soon PCGS...so I think I'm qualified as a real dealer, right? Does that mean you have to have all those things to be a dealer? Not necessarily, no. There is a spectrum of "dealer", and there really isnt an official barrier to entry. That said, I dont like doing things half assed so I went all in.
But yes, If you wanted to be a dealer you very well could, you certainly have the knowledge for it...but i doubt that you'd want to. I know I don't have to explain all of this, but this thread has displayed that there's no shortage of angst against dealers, specifically with auction participation. I think that Im in a unique position because I've now been on both sides of the isle, and many of the feelings I used to have towards dealers have turned out to have been unwarranted.
To clarify one thing, I NEVER said that auctions were my primary source of coins....I don't know what gave you that idea, but MAYBE 10-15% of my inventory, at MOST, is sourced from auctions. The rest of it comes from an array of sources. Collectors, wholesalers, other dealers, etc.
It's easy to sell nice coins, but its no walk in the park to consistently buy nice inventory at levels where I can make money. At any given time I might be watching 100 coins between all the auction sites, but the thought process is much different than when youre a collector. The prices that I offer my inventory at are the prices that I consider to be FMV, and if someone buys the coin, then I was right.
You say that a dealer who buys a coin at auction "Isn't adding any value", but that's a very myopic viewpoint, and it doesn't make sense. That would mean that every coin that sells at auction always sells for its full value, and we know that not to be true. Coins slip through the cracks, people forget to bid, theres a multitude of reasons why a coin may not achieve its true FMV, and a good dealer is able to recognize and select coins that could be resold for 10% higher while still being a fair price. Using your logic, does that mean car dealers cant add value to cars they win in auction? How about art dealers, do they add value to the paintings, or do they just know that the market value of the painting X and they were able to pay .9x?
Heres the thing- we are all here on a coin forum and many of us are advanced collectors. We have extensive libraries, we spend a lot of time reading, studying, sorting through auctions....we go to great lengths to find joy in our collecting. My point is that we are coin weenies, and astute collectors like you or me do not represent the entire collector base. There are thousands of collectors who dont pay attention to auctions, and they dont spend hours every week researching coins. They just want to buy nice coins and they don't care that a coin sold for less a few months ago.
I work 12 hour days fairly often, I'm glued to my computer monitoring the facebook groups, something nice gets posted there you have about 5 minutes before its gone. Im sorting through other dealers inventories, and wading through all the current options filling out my watch list. I know that you do this too, but Im always studying reference guides, auction catalogues, the whole 9 yards, same as you. Traveling around the country to all of these shows, away from home for 3-4 days at a time where I spend tens of thousands every year to put myself where the coins are. Making dozens of connections, plenty of courtesy purchases to help forge relationships that could lead to me being offered the type of coins I want to offer. Hours on phone calls, emails, and communications with my customers helping them narrow their focus and strategize properly for what they want to do.
I already have 5 figures a month in overhead without the shows when you count the rent, insurance, employee wages, ad spend, grading fees, TPG and trading platform memberships, and thats before you throw in the flights, hotels, table fees etc. The list goes on and on, and we haven't even begun to talk about a few hundred grand in inventory. I am NOT complaining about this, because I knew that I would be making these investments into the business before I was profitable. My point is, it's a functioning business just like any other, and the VALUE is in the service that we provide, not just the coins themselves. It might not have any value to YOU, but many other collectors are not expert level graders, nor are they able to make these type of time commitments to their hobby. I didn't become a coin dealer to make money, I did it because I have a love and passion for coins, and I like to use my knowledge, grading skills, and youthful eyesight to facilitate the joy of collecting for others. Obviously , dealers need to turn a profit, but my average margins on the type of coins I offer is between 5-10% and right now the average is much closer to 5%.
All I'm saying is that maybe the attitudes towards dealers need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, because Im certainly not taking advantage of anyone, nor have I ever. My entire business model is based upon thin margins, higher volume, and being as honest and fair as I can possibly be. My theory in this business, and in ANY business, is that if you do the right thing and treat people how you would want to be treated, the money will follow. We're not all the same, and theres bad characters in any industry.
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You’re absolutely right- I’ve just never had someone pre-bid more than my Proxy bid so I’ve never received a notification like this before!
You should read my previous posts, but to summarize, you got the wrong guy and I never wanted to have an "advantage" over collectors. One tiny thing I said was taken out of context and for some reason everyone focused on that instead of what I was actually saying.
Also, the way you took little snippets of my comments pertaining to different things and arranged them into a straw man is a bad faith way to have a discussion, you must be a journalist. I was never making the point that dealers should have an advantage, that was a reply to another member who said that dealers have resources that collectors don't have. I asked if he could present an example, because over the past 20 years the playing field has been leveled.
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Bottom line is the highest bidder wins. It can be a pre-bid, proxy, a week early max bid, or the last second snipe.
You get what you (are willing to bid enough) and pay for, and if you snooze you lose. LOL
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
You sound like a seasoned and savvy collector, but no, youre not the only collector who utilized auctions. I wasn't saying that Auctions excluded collectors, I was just saying that the vast majority of bidding was done by dealers.
The point I was making was that it was just a tad ironic that so many collectors are distyurbed that dealers buy coins in auction and mark them up, considering the fact that auctions were historically driven by dealer business. The other point I was making is that dealers in 2024 have little to no advantages over collectors, unlike many other professions. I never said it was a problem, or that I wanted things to be differently.
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My comment was addressed to three things and not a personal attack at you:
If a feature is for dealers only then what constitutes a dealer and where is the line? Especially on a platform marketed as being for everyone.
Increasing the friction in the market to favor of a dealers won’t be enough to make any dealer who requires the friction to be viable, to actually be viable. Sure dealers sell coins from auction. Of course. But I can’t think of any successful dealer in US coins that relies on buying at highly covered auctions and marking them up as their primary business strategy. There is too little friction and therefore little opportunity for value add. The is different in art and cars and the other markets you note. Adding friction is what I read as being suggested in Ian’s comment.
As I said, disappointing that this was a suggestion to create a tool for dealers only.
Latin American Collection
+1 and many others
The sad fact is that some posters here are quick on the draw with insults and insinuations.
But at least Leo was big enough to delete his slander.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
> 3. As I said, disappointing that this was a suggestion to create a tool for dealers only.
Your questions are all made on the basis that it my suggestion to "create a tool for dealers only". If you read my essays above, I've been trying to explain that that is FALSE . The original "suggestion" was to just enable proxy bidding, period. When I added the "even if it was dealers only" disclaimer it wasn't about giving anyone an advantage , it's because dealers have dozens of coins to watch for and often times there spread out over a several hour period of time on a sunday night.
If you would replace the words "dealers only" with "people who bid on a lot of coins"... or "people who ask for the feature", that is what I had in mind. The purpose of this discussion, for me, was to gain insight into bidding behavior determine if some coins would sell for more money if there was a proxy feature. Multiple comments said "yes", and multiple comments (I think one was edited now) said "No, I dont like proxy bidding because then I wouldn't win as many coins"....If read between the lines, that pretty much answers my question.
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While I would like to avoid the primary topic of this thread (proxy bids), I am somewhat surprised that @ianrussell has not addressed an underlying theme - that of disappointing results on holiday weekends. This subject has been raised in the past and I believe Ian has stated GC has not seen any noticeable diminishment in prices realized on holiday weekend auctions.
Were the results Dan experienced on the Labor Day weekend auctions just coincidence or did the holiday actually soften participation and therefore, demand and sales prices?
Tim
I would surmise that ending an auction on a holiday shouldn't theoretically affect anything as the coins are posted for 1-4 weeks and you can enter a max bid at any time. The format omits the need to "be there" when the auction closes. Now of course this doesn't really accommodate auction snipers. But in the end it all works out the same. If you're willing to pay $x in the last 5 seconds of an auction, you should be willing to enter that amount 3 days before the auction if you're not going to be there to snipe. It may cost you more, but you were willing to pay that amount anyway... The only thing it doesn't help for is spontaneous I'll-bid-more-than-planned-to bidding which I'm not sure how much of that there really is because the hard close really doesn't favor that approach.
How much of the weak results are individual cases or the market softening for certain items? I have lost plenty of auctions to strong bidders on holiday weekends. The items matter too-you will see different results for low end, middle tier, and high end (where just one person not paying attention could make a large difference).
It certainly would be interesting to see the data to have a better idea of how the holidays impact bidding (even if no data is perfect, it should still give us some insight). If anyone is feeling adventurous, they could pick out several coins/series and do a small comparison themselves.
A "proxy bid" is one that you can put on a separate book that is not exercised until the lot opens in the auction. You can increase it, decrease it or cancel it all together. No one who is bidding on-line knows that you have placed it. It can't be lower than the current on-line bid obviously.
Most auction lots are sold at the time the lot opens. It is rare that there is a high bid when the lot is opened that will be successful. The proxy is like the eBay snipe, except those who have been outbid by it can bid again. I hate the eBay snipe, and will not participate in their auctions because of it.
A lot of bidders have developed a "sniping" attitude and believe they will get a better price if they wait till the last second, without even knowing what hidden max bids exist.
In some ways I agree this approach might result in lower sale pricing, because the price "seen" up till the end looks like a below market price, so it seems like a good deal to toss a bid out in a snipe program or to get reminded to watch every auction in real time and enter a last second bid. The risk to the seller is that people "forget" to bid at the end or are too busy to really enter the bid they are willing to pay.
If enough people get distracted by football, holidays, or too many auctions ending close to the same time, they may fumble their last second bid, and the person who had a higher max bid much earlier, will win.
This approach can hurt sellers, as the buyers do not "see" the competitors higher bids like in a live auction, where everyone "shows their hand" and you have 5-10 seconds to bid higher or pass. This live auction encourages some to bid higher under stress, to "win".
It is also a logical reason why some other live other auction houses charge 20% fees, and GC charges 12.5%.
You have a choice of fees and formats. Use them wisely. Both approaches can have advantages depending on what you are buying or selling.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
These are my questions as well. Hopefully, Ian will respond when and if he sees this post and has time to respond. I do remember a similar thread on this subject in regard to a July 4th weekend GC auction, IIRC.
Tim
Superbowl was another one.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
When the auction has the 'stated close' time, when would the lot 'open' for proxy bids, at the close? How is this any different than an eBay 'snipe' program. There is no 'extended bidding' if a bid placed during last minute of auction.
Computer or internet issues can foil any best laid plan.
Dang I thought I was the only dealer hater here.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I feel like I agree with your comment, but I'm going to try to simplify it for my own digestion, so correct me if I'm wrong.
In essence, it sounds like you agree that hard close auctions encourage sniping behavior. It also sounds like you agree that without the actual "snipe" function, there's a risk of the potential bidders getting distracted, which in turn, leads to lower sale prices overall. Do I have that right? The part I don't understand is the logic behind the different Buyers premiums, can you clarify that?
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This is one of the funniest things, no one even gave your comment any consideration, but I bet that most don't realize that there's several tech savvy numismatists out there that are already "sniping" on GC. I guess it cant be that big of a "disadvantage" if we don't notice it right? lol
The smart guys fly under the radar and just build it themselves, only the dumb ones like me try to talk about it instead
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There is a somewhat newer feature on GC which allows you to bid on multiple items in your watch list with one click. No more need for multiple pages or tabs open. Makes it so you don't miss out when auctions are ending within seconds of one another. Just stay away from any that I'm bidding on
This thread is a disaster, but to answer the original question…no. I’d probably bid on fewer coins. I like the simplicity of GC, the “Sunday night event” feel, and I find the myriad bidding methods and structures on other platforms complicated.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Funny you bring this up. I was just talking to my son about the no S dime. He said he expected a “huge fight at the auction.” I had to explain the format to him, like eBay really. His idea was for coins under like $5k to go by the current method. Over $5k should have the regular format and a one minute extension from every last bid. I can’t recall the term for this auction type?
Of course, the $5k was an arbitrary number, but I liked his thinking. Then again, the chance of my me buying a coin over $5k is less than Dan lending me his beaver to toy with. So, what say should I have? Nada I guess. Ok, this might’ve turned into a rant. 🤣
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Poor Dan, the streak continues.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I could, but I won't.
My World Coin Type Set
Bid on about 16 lots last night at GC and won only one, a Wash Quarter in CACG plastic.
Really wanted the Bowers reference Civil War Token, but at least one bidder wanted it more.
That is how auctions work. No complaint.
FWIW, a few weeks ago I did ask Ian to make re-bidding easier and he said they were going to work on it. That is, when you go to place the bid and another higher bid has been entered in the mean time, you get a notice page and then you have to navigate back to the item to rebid. I also asked him to skip/waive the bid confirmation in the last two minutes of an auction.
Every move has a counter measure. The sniping approach really only works against other snipers. The approach has served me well but it's also cost me a few times when I was willing to go higher and someone else had a high bid in but I didn't have enough time to enter another bid. Oh well, that's the fun of auctions.
Under the current rules, knowing several will disagree, IMO, one place is currently a little bit advantageous for buying, and another one for selling. It matters to some degree what quality or scarcity item is being sold, and who will be in attendance, but that is my general expectation.
The logic for different selling premiums should be obvious to you based on your questions about auction methodologies.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Thank you gentlemen, i appreciate the support. I even appreciate Leo for recanting what he said.
, I wanted to explain myself, because the anti-dealer sentiment is deep rooted within this forum, and the collector base as a whole. Just the mere notion of a perceived advantage for dealers, which wasn't even my intention, and it’s like a dog whistle. Everyone went to clutch their pearls and cry foul.
Good question, and I had to put some thought into this too, and there's 2 ways you can go about it, while still maintaining a hard close format.
All proxies would execute with moments to spare, 30 seconds or less.
All proxies would execute with ample time for even more bidding, maybe at the 5-10 minute mark or something?
The bids would be stored with the auction houses internal system, on their servers, so internet issues on our end wouldn't affect the execution of the proxies.
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This is getting off topic, but IMO the best and fairest auction system is a soft close where any action extends the time by a minute or more whenever there is action in the last fast minutes. This system gives every interested buyer the chance to bid again/higher, and the seller knows they got the most out of the auction audience and allows for true market price discovery. I know for a fact several coins I've won at GC would have gone higher without the hard close. Sure it benefits me but the seller loses out.
Sorry, but where is the disagree button?
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Lunch time at a busy restaurant in the ritzy section of the Jersey Shore. Heavy set lady near the front door asks the waiter to turn down the air conditioning as it was way too cold. Waiter nods an ok. Minutes later an older woman a few tables away complains about the terrible heat and asks the waiter to turn up the AC. He agrees. This goes back and forth between the two tables for 15 minutes
Gentleman overhearing this, comments to the waiter that he admires his patience and asks how he resolves the AC issue. Waiter responds "easy, we don't have air conditioning."
Ok? Whatever you want it to be, sometime on Sunday evening.
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