Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
> That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
I don’t follow about not helping the consignor. Anytime there’s a bid, the consignor is being helped.
Concerning your rare coin statement, another bidder and myself were both involved in sniping a GC coin awhile back.
In a little over a minute, we each entered 2.5k bids. So in this case the seller definitely benefited from our sniping.😉
Yes, but it's likely that you or other bidder would have gone higher if you knew or thought one more bid increment would win it for you. But neither of you had the opportunity to go higher because of the hard close.
They both had the opportunity to go as high as they wanted pre “hard close” and he chose not to go high enough. Very different than what you’re suggesting.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
Why didn’t you just input your max bid if $1308 was sufficiently high enough but you would have gone higher ie: $3000? I had a coin back in January that I expected to sell for between $7,500 and $10,500. I put in my max nuclear bid so that no matter what I’d win the coin. It ended up selling for $12,450 and I’m glad my logic worked. I don’t follow a max snipe bid that you should have max sniped higher.
Post loss remorse it’s easy to say the seller lost out on additional funds but that’s not what your wallet said at the time the auction closed.
Sadly I've fallen for the trick where I sniped with a lower bid than I should have due to lack of bidding/price activity prior to end of auction thinking I would get it for less. That was stupid I know and I think everyone has to learn that lesson at least once the hard way. In any case, it reinforces the theory that hard closes cost consignors money because there have been many auctions I have lost where I would have gone higher had there been more time on the clock.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
Why didn’t you just input your max bid if $1308 was sufficiently high enough but you would have gone higher ie: $3000? I had a coin back in January that I expected to sell for between $7,500 and $10,500. I put in my max nuclear bid so that no matter what I’d win the coin. It ended up selling for $12,450 and I’m glad my logic worked. I don’t follow a max snipe bid that you should have max sniped higher.
Post loss remorse it’s easy to say the seller lost out on additional funds but that’s not what your wallet said at the time the auction closed.
Sadly I've fallen for the trick where I sniped with a lower bid than I should have due to lack of bidding/price activity prior to end of auction thinking I would get it for less. That was stupid I know and I think everyone has to learn that lesson at least once the hard way. In any case, it reinforces the theory that hard closes cost consignors money because there have been many auctions I have lost where I would have gone higher had there been more time on the clock.
Understand this completely but said “trick” was not imposed upon you by the auction house, nor the other bidders. That’s all I’m suggesting.
@Bochiman said:
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
What ever happened to reading the comments in the thread?
So, I missed a comment or two? How many comments are there in this thread anyway?
Next time you create a thread like this, should I PM you with my post/question before I post it, in case I missed any post that may have addressed it? I'd be happy to do that.
As someone who claims they were misunderstood, starting with the OP and discussion with Ian, funny how you respond to my post like that. Particularly since I don't believe I've ever posted a reply to any of your posts before. None that I can recall.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
Why didn’t you just input your max bid if $1308 was sufficiently high enough but you would have gone higher ie: $3000? I had a coin back in January that I expected to sell for between $7,500 and $10,500. I put in my max nuclear bid so that no matter what I’d win the coin. It ended up selling for $12,450 and I’m glad my logic worked. I don’t follow a max snipe bid that you should have max sniped higher.
Post loss remorse it’s easy to say the seller lost out on additional funds but that’s not what your wallet said at the time the auction closed.
Reality though is, many bidders don't want to lose an auction, especially by a low increment. So they will bid above the preset number while in the heat of the sale. All I know is...if people are applauding at the end, you don't want to be the winner.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
@PeakRarities said:
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
Now I’m following the logic, before I just wasn’t sure what he meant by “morphing” to late bids. Many savvy dealers and collectors have always tried to avoid disclosing their max for as long as possible.
Whether some choose to do that, or not, the fact of the matter is that you will pay more in the long run if you just “bid your max and let the chips fall where they may”. It’s human psychology, when you know that someone else is willing to pay a certain price, that makes you feel more comfortable stretching out to win the coin. Sure, it’s definitely easier to it that way, but for a dealer who’s trying to turn a profit, having to pay 5% more can seriously affect the bottom line. Specialty dealers who make markets in their area of expertise also would also prefer not to put their knowledge of a coins value into someone else’s database either.
@PeakRarities said:
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
Now I’m following the logic, before I just wasn’t sure what he meant by “morphing” to late bids. Many savvy dealers and collectors have always tried to avoid disclosing their max for as long as possible.
Whether some choose to do that, or not, the fact of the matter is that you will pay more in the long run if you just “bid your max and let the chips fall where they may”. It’s human psychology, when you know that someone else is willing to pay a certain price, that makes you feel more comfortable stretching out to win the coin. Sure, it’s definitely easier to it that way, but for a dealer who’s trying to turn a profit, having to pay 5% more can seriously affect the bottom line. Specialty dealers who make markets in their area of expertise also would also prefer not to put their knowledge of a coins value into someone else’s database either.
Question for you Dan. The coin that you missed bidding on, which was the catalyst of this thread, what was the approximate value?
@PeakRarities said:
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
Now I’m following the logic, before I just wasn’t sure what he meant by “morphing” to late bids. Many savvy dealers and collectors have always tried to avoid disclosing their max for as long as possible.
Whether some choose to do that, or not, the fact of the matter is that you will pay more in the long run if you just “bid your max and let the chips fall where they may”. It’s human psychology, when you know that someone else is willing to pay a certain price, that makes you feel more comfortable stretching out to win the coin. Sure, it’s definitely easier to it that way, but for a dealer who’s trying to turn a profit, having to pay 5% more can seriously affect the bottom line. Specialty dealers who make markets in their area of expertise also would also prefer not to put their knowledge of a coins value into someone else’s database either.
Question for you Dan. The coin that you missed bidding on, which was the catalyst of this thread, what was the approximate value?
I had it at about 9k-9500 retail and It sold for 7250 all in. I would have paid 8250 for it.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I'll go a step further. A soft close format also fosters bidding wars, a phenomenon when two or more bidders abandon rationale thought and bid more than they plan to, which also benefits sellers.
Question for you Dan. The coin that you missed bidding on, which was the catalyst of this thread, what was the approximate value?
I had it at about 9k-9500 retail and It sold for 7250 all in. I would have paid 8250 for it.
Why didn’t you just put in a bid for it in advance rather than make up this thread to complain about GC auction format? You knew the GC auction format going in, if you really wanted it, you could have complied with their format. Alternatively, if you don’t like their way of running auctions, discuss it directly with them. Obviously a private discussion with them would be more constructive and would not place them in the difficult position you have done in this thread. Just sayin’. Sheesh.
Question for you Dan. The coin that you missed bidding on, which was the catalyst of this thread, what was the approximate value?
I had it at about 9k-9500 retail and It sold for 7250 all in. I would have paid 8250 for it.
Why didn’t you just put in a bid for it in advance rather than make up this thread to complain about GC auction format? You knew the GC auction format going in, if you really wanted it, you could have complied with their format. Alternatively, if you don’t like their way of running auctions, discuss it directly with them. Obviously a private discussion with them would be more constructive and would not place them in the difficult position you have done in this thread. Just sayin’. Sheesh.
SH, Im not sure how many times I have to repeat myself, but I know that you're reading comprehension is not poor. This wasnt a thread to complain, Im both a buyer and a consigner and I have the right to ask the forum about their bidding habits if I think the insight can help me with my decision making process re consignments in the future. I did ask Ian directly, and I understand the "why" behind not allowing it. Ian is a sharp businessman, and I'm sure he 's given plenty of thought to the subject. Many of you in this thread explained that you wouldn't use GC as much if there was a proxy feature, so based on that alone, why would Ian change it? I'll continue to consign there, and I'll continue to buy there, but I learned that some coins arent meant for every venue.
I changed the title of the thread, forget about GC. What If wanted to start my own auction house, and I was gathering feedback so that I know which format I want to use?
"You knew the GC auction format going in, if you really wanted it, you could have complied with their format."
Again with the "If you really wanted it" argument 🙄
It was a coin for inventory, It's not for my collection and I dont have an emotional attachment to it, it's "product" that I forgot about. Would I forget about a pioneer coin for my collection? NO. If you never forget anything, good on you. I was blessed with several talents, but memory isnt one of them.
As for the "Why not just bid early?" - Scroll up 4 replies ago, I've explained why I and many others don't want to-
@PeakRarities said:
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
Now I’m following the logic, before I just wasn’t sure what he meant by “morphing” to late bids. Many savvy dealers and collectors have always tried to avoid disclosing their max for as long as possible.
Whether some choose to do that, or not, the fact of the matter is that you will pay more in the long run if you just “bid your max and let the chips fall where they may”. It’s human psychology, when you know that someone else is willing to pay a certain price, that makes you feel more comfortable stretching out to win the coin. Sure, it’s definitely easier to it that way, but for a dealer who’s trying to turn a profit, having to pay 5% more can seriously affect the bottom line. Specialty dealers who make markets in their area of expertise also would also prefer not to put their knowledge of a coins value into someone else’s database either.
That's fine if YOU want to just put your max in and let it rock, I wont do that for reasons I have now explained a number of times. I'm not going to criticize your bidding preferences, I don't know why you insist on criticizing mine. If you don't want to contribute to the conceptual discussion about bidding habits, then you dont have to open the thread. Just sayin'. Sheesh.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I'll go a step further. A soft close format also fosters bidding wars, a phenomenon when two or more bidders abandon rationale thought and bid more than they plan to, which also benefits sellers.
Taking all of the implications into consideration, it sounds as if a hard close auction puts consignors at a terrible disadvantage. Coincidentally, it's been an inside joke among our circle of dealers that we haven't been able to buy diddly squat on GC for the past couple years. I remember in 2020-2021 I was able to buy at reasonable levels, but from 2022-2023 it seemed like GC APR's were the highest among all of them. Many dealers continued to buy from HA and Stacks, but a lot of us almost stopped paying attention to GC entirely because everything sold for retail to retail +.
A possible explanation for this is that GC was way more popular among collectors and hobbyists (similar to ebay), and the exceptional level of collector and hobbyist participation negated the buyer-centric principles of a hard close auction. Perhaps a market downturn disproportionately affects those same collectors/hobbyists, but yet all of the dealers remain active on the other auction houses? Maybe, now that the pundulum has swung back, all of use dealers all have to start paying attention on Sunday night again so we dont miss all of these buying opportunities? 😅
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I suppose error correction has some value.
But it would include bid retraction, if a person bid too high in error.
So error correction could yield a higher or lower sale price.
And there will be some errors that the bidder did not notice until after the sale closed,
so not all errors are correctable by simply having a soft close.
I'll go a step further. A soft close format also fosters bidding wars, a phenomenon when two or more bidders abandon rationale thought and bid more than they plan to, which also benefits sellers.
True.
Although then the winning bidder might be out of money, or might feel bad about being buried in that lot,
and might bid less on later lots and in future auctions. The potential significance depends on many factors.
Apologies if this has already been suggested, but I would think one could have a system where a proxy could be submitted only during the last 24 hours. It would both encourage early bidding and allow people who might be otherwise occupied to not have to worry about being around at the close or showing their hand earlier than they want.
@messydesk said:
Apologies if this has already been suggested, but I would think one could have a system where a proxy could be submitted only during the last 24 hours. It would both encourage early bidding and allow people who might be otherwise occupied to not have to worry about being around at the close or showing their hand earlier than they want.
I’m pretty sure that’s how Stack’s does their proxy. Not sure about HA.
@Bochiman said:
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
What ever happened to reading the comments in the thread?
So, I missed a comment or two? How many comments are there in this thread anyway?
Next time you create a thread like this, should I PM you with my post/question before I post it, in case I missed any post that may have addressed it? I'd be happy to do that.
As someone who claims they were misunderstood, starting with the OP and discussion with Ian, funny how you respond to my post like that. Particularly since I don't believe I've ever posted a reply to any of your posts before. None that I can recall.
While my comment was mildly facetious, I didn't insult or attack you. I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two". There were approximately 4 different member comments that suggested to "just bid my max and live with it" (not counting the 6th, after yours lol) , and at least 4-5 counter comments explaining why that is not an ideal strategy. Basically the entire discussion is based upon that reasoning. Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting?
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I suppose error correction has some value.
But it would include bid retraction, if a person bid too high in error.
So error correction could yield a higher or lower sale price.
And there will be some errors that the bidder did not notice until after the sale closed,
so not all errors are correctable by simply having a soft close.
You read to deeply into that, he didnt mean to literally make a correction as in typo or fat fingered bid. He meant it in the way that the "mistake" was not entering the max from the part, and the "correction" is having more time to go even higher with his bid via soft close time extension.
I always bid early bc we have activities in the SH household on Sunday evenings. So I bid what I will pay for the coin in advance. Showing my hand? Well yes, if someone wants to bid more, go for it, no worries and the power to them. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. So no, don’t need a proxy although others might……………
Well spoken - set it and forget it. I've been doing a more of this lately and I'm getting used to it. If there's something I absolutely have to have then I will make a point of being there when it ends. I guess I must be mellowing in my old age...
@Bochiman said:
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
What ever happened to reading the comments in the thread?
So, I missed a comment or two? How many comments are there in this thread anyway?
Next time you create a thread like this, should I PM you with my post/question before I post it, in case I missed any post that may have addressed it? I'd be happy to do that.
As someone who claims they were misunderstood, starting with the OP and discussion with Ian, funny how you respond to my post like that. Particularly since I don't believe I've ever posted a reply to any of your posts before. None that I can recall.
While my comment was mildly facetious, I didn't insult or attack you. I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two". There were approximately 4 different member comments that suggested to "just bid my max and live with it" (not counting the 6th, after yours lol) , and at least 4-5 counter comments explaining why that is not an ideal strategy. Basically the entire discussion is based upon that reasoning. Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting?
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I'll go a step further. A soft close format also fosters bidding wars, a phenomenon when two or more bidders abandon rationale thought and bid more than they plan to, which also benefits sellers.
The point I was trying to make is if the auction had a soft closing I would have bid hire and the seller and eBay would have netted more money. Of course if I had placed a high bid I might have won the auction.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I'll go a step further. A soft close format also fosters bidding wars, a phenomenon when two or more bidders abandon rationale thought and bid more than they plan to, which also benefits sellers.
The point I was trying to make is if the auction had a soft closing I would have bid hire and the seller and eBay would have netted more money. Of course if I had placed a high bid I might have won the auction.
Thank you, I think that second point is important.
This is why it is important that the auction is structured so that you have the full incentive to bid your true max.
Then you can just put the sealed bid out there any time and check at the end to see if you were the high bidder.
If the auction is not a sealed bid / second highest or snipe, then you have to work with the mechanics of the auction to keep sending out incremental bids to protect the confidentiality of your true max.
While my comment was mildly facetious, I didn't insult or attack you. I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two". There were approximately 4 different member comments that suggested to "just bid my max and live with it" (not counting the 6th, after yours lol) , and at least 4-5 counter comments explaining why that is not an ideal strategy. Basically the entire discussion is based upon that reasoning. Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting?
Yes, I can. How many comments in the thread? Missing a few handfuls is a crime?
LOL
Sorry, but no matter how people have commented about you, I don't think I would/will be a customer for you. Sounds like you don't like me and I don't like your style with your replies, so I don't want to have that experience.
There are dealers who handle things much better.
Thanks for basically calling me a liar in your reply though
"I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two".
"Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting? "
You are allowed to make facetious comments, and basically call someone a liar because you find it "hard to believe", but if people made assumptions on your comment(s), you were upset? Got it. Very reasonable and non-hypocritical, right?
While my comment was mildly facetious, I didn't insult or attack you. I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two". There were approximately 4 different member comments that suggested to "just bid my max and live with it" (not counting the 6th, after yours lol) , and at least 4-5 counter comments explaining why that is not an ideal strategy. Basically the entire discussion is based upon that reasoning. Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting?
Yes, I can. How many comments in the thread? Missing a few handfuls is a crime?
LOL
Sorry, but no matter how people have commented about you, I don't think I would/will be a customer for you. Sounds like you don't like me and I don't like your style with your replies, so I don't want to have that experience.
There are dealers who handle things much better.
Thanks for basically calling me a liar in your reply though
"I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two".
"Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting? "
You are allowed to make facetious comments, and basically call someone a liar because you find it "hard to believe", but if people made assumptions on your comment(s), you were upset? Got it. Very reasonable and non-hypocritical, right?
Alrighty then….you do you. I wasn’t asking for your business (and based on this exchange, I doubt that I want it) , I didn’t call you a liar, and I don’t see where I sounded “upset.” I said I “found” it hard to believe” (past tense, as in at the time of my first comment to you).
I thought about quoting all of the comments and that you must have “missed”, but that would have put us well into the 7th page of the discussion….
@Bochiman said:
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
What ever happened to reading the comments in the thread?
So, I missed a comment or two? How many comments are there in this thread anyway?
Next time you create a thread like this, should I PM you with my post/question before I post it, in case I missed any post that may have addressed it? I'd be happy to do that.
As someone who claims they were misunderstood, starting with the OP and discussion with Ian, funny how you respond to my post like that. Particularly since I don't believe I've ever posted a reply to any of your posts before. None that I can recall.
While my comment was mildly facetious, I didn't insult or attack you. I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two". There were approximately 4 different member comments that suggested to "just bid my max and live with it" (not counting the 6th, after yours lol) , and at least 4-5 counter comments explaining why that is not an ideal strategy. Basically the entire discussion is based upon that reasoning. Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting?
We can be cordial while in disagreement.
We certainly can, but even even cordiality can’t overcome hypersensitivity or poor reading comprehension…
SH, Im not sure how many times I have to repeat myself, but I know that you're reading comprehension is not poor. This wasnt a thread to complain, Im both a buyer and a consigner and I have the right to ask the forum about their bidding habits if I think the insight can help me with my decision making process re consignments in the future. I did ask Ian directly, and I understand the "why" behind not allowing it. Ian is a sharp businessman, and I'm sure he 's given plenty of thought to the subject. Many of you in this thread explained that you wouldn't use GC as much if there was a proxy feature, so based on that alone, why would Ian change it? I'll continue to consign there, and I'll continue to buy there, but I learned that some coins arent meant for every venue.
Bottom line, you did not bid on a coin at GC and now you are complaining about it because you don’t like their auction format. Seriously, discuss it privately with Ian, I suspect you could make a convincing argument to have him consider a change, but calling GC out here on the boards is NOT the way to do it. If someone called me out publicly on how I run my buisness, I would ignore them.
And frankly I don’t see a problem with or without a proxy bid. I bid what I am willing to pay. If I don’t want to be there at the close, I bid prior to the close. It is not that hard. I win some, I lose some, I bid what I believe I want to pay. Not rocket science.
And further, with respect to the claim that GC auctions don’t always bring the max value of the coin in their auctions, this is likely incorrect. With HA auctions, that have a proxy bid, I find the coins I am interested in go for less proportionally than the coins I am interested at GC, no proxy bid. But in reality, it simply depends on the coin and its quality. Great coins result in aggressive bids and higher auction results than average coins for the grade. Just take a look at the results for the Palos Verdes bust dimes at GC a few weeks ago. I bid on 10, none of which settled at retail pricing, all of which went for much more. And no proxy bids, what is up with that? It is the coin, not the auction format, that matters.
@spacehayduke said:
And further, with respect to the claim that GC auctions don’t always bring the max value of the coin in their auctions, this is likely incorrect. With HA auctions, that have a proxy bid, I find the coins I am interested in go for less proportionally than the coins I am interested at GC, no proxy bid. But in reality, it simply depends on the coin and its quality. Great coins result in aggressive bids and higher auction results than average coins for the grade. Just take a look at the results for the Palos Verdes bust dimes at GC a few weeks ago. I bid on 10, none of which settled at retail pricing, all of which went for much more. And no proxy bids, what is up with that? It is the coin, not the auction format, that matters.
It's difficult when people make comments like yours to know if the prices take into account the buyer premiums. Please clarify. I would expect coins as HA to sell for about 10% less than GC because of the BP difference, I'd be curious to see data on that.
There are also generalities that apply to common coins vs once-a-year or once-every-few-year type rare coins or plain unique items. It cannot be disputed that a hard close prevents any kind of irrational spontaneous bid-until-I-win scenarios from going to full fruition. It also prevents people from going "just one increment higher" than they had planned to. Many of us last minute bidders enter what we think is our highest bid in the last few seconds, but reality is often that after we lose by 1 increment or less, we realize we would have been willing to pay "just a little more" but when you snipe you kind of just have to pick a number and go with it. Hard closes do not allow complete price discovery because the end of bidding is artificially established and is not necessarily the most the buyers are willing to pay.
So yes, without a doubt, hard closes leads to lower prices.
SH, Im not sure how many times I have to repeat myself, but I know that you're reading comprehension is not poor. This wasnt a thread to complain, Im both a buyer and a consigner and I have the right to ask the forum about their bidding habits if I think the insight can help me with my decision making process re consignments in the future. I did ask Ian directly, and I understand the "why" behind not allowing it. Ian is a sharp businessman, and I'm sure he 's given plenty of thought to the subject. Many of you in this thread explained that you wouldn't use GC as much if there was a proxy feature, so based on that alone, why would Ian change it? I'll continue to consign there, and I'll continue to buy there, but I learned that some coins arent meant for every venue.
Bottom line, you did not bid on a coin at GC and now you are complaining about it because you don’t like their auction format. Seriously, discuss it privately with Ian, I suspect you could make a convincing argument to have him consider a change, but calling GC out here on the boards is NOT the way to do it. If someone called me out publicly on how I run my buisness, I would ignore them.
And frankly I don’t see a problem with or without a proxy bid. I bid what I am willing to pay. If I don’t want to be there at the close, I bid prior to the close. It is not that hard. I win some, I lose some, I bid what I believe I want to pay. Not rocket science.
It still seems like you completely ignored everything I said in my response to you, and just tried to sledgehammer the same points you made on the first page of the thread.
You win SH, I’m done here. Not sure why I bother anymore to start discussions outside the status quo of CAC and mystery boxes, shame on me.
@spacehayduke said:
And further, with respect to the claim that GC auctions don’t always bring the max value of the coin in their auctions, this is likely incorrect. With HA auctions, that have a proxy bid, I find the coins I am interested in go for less proportionally than the coins I am interested at GC, no proxy bid. But in reality, it simply depends on the coin and its quality. Great coins result in aggressive bids and higher auction results than average coins for the grade. Just take a look at the results for the Palos Verdes bust dimes at GC a few weeks ago. I bid on 10, none of which settled at retail pricing, all of which went for much more. And no proxy bids, what is up with that? It is the coin, not the auction format, that matters.
It's difficult when people make comments like yours to know if the prices take into account the buyer premiums. Please clarify. I would expect coins as HA to sell for about 10% less than GC because of the BP difference, I'd be curious to see data on that.
There are also generalities that apply to common coins vs once-a-year or once-every-few-year type rare coins or plain unique items. It cannot be disputed that a hard close prevents any kind of irrational spontaneous bid-until-I-win scenarios from going to full fruition. It also prevents people from going "just one increment higher" than they had planned to. Many of us last minute bidders enter what we think is our highest bid in the last few seconds, but reality is often that after we lose by 1 increment or less, we realize we would have been willing to pay "just a little more" but when you snipe you kind of just have to pick a number and go with it. Hard closes do not allow complete price discovery because the end of bidding is artificially established and is not necessarily the most the buyers are willing to pay.
So yes, without a doubt, hard closes leads to lower prices.
I believe that most here are referring to realized (or all in price.) Hammer is the closing price before the 10 or 20% vigorish is figured in.
Here is my take on auctions, proxy, hard close, dealers and the end result of buying a coin. I have been primarily a collector for over 50-years but have worked in a coin shop and have had years here and there where I was a vest pocket dealer. Like any collectable there are times when demand is higher than supply and visa versa.
I have found over the years that it is much easier to buy coins at resonable prices in auction during "down" trends when dealers and collectors are strapped for money, no matter what type of auction close. You can find deals! During better and more competitive times, I tend to find better values and buy more coins from well established dealers. Well established dealers do have more sources such as collectors selling back, collections walking into their shops, relationships and simply their knowledge of the business and accurate price points.
Dealers should have to do the work no matter if the auction is a hard close or proxy. I think it is good that the different auction platforms have different bidding systems. This is called competition and keeps the market healthy.
Collectors have the advantage of knowing what they are willing to pay, place the bid, and win or lose. They are not looking for an immediate profit.
I personally buy and sell on GC. I generally only buy on HA and Stacks if I can pickup something very special.
As a seller I would use GC or a dealer, as many dealers (if you have very good, liquid inventory) will work on GC type of margins.
So to answer the question posted "Would you spend more money in hard close auctions if there was a "proxy" feature?"
The answer is no.
Hard closes do not allow complete price discovery because the end of bidding is artificially established and is not necessarily the most the buyers are willing to pay.
So yes, without a doubt, hard closes leads to lower prices.
I agree with Proof and Peak.
Heritage offers every bid type under the sun: Internet, Proxy, Live, Floor, Phone, and Protection.
Why does Heritage do this? Well, Heritage is often credited with the highest price realizations as well, especially on rare and unique items.
If you take away bid types that match a buyer's strategy or persona, you will miss bids sometimes and get lower prices on average.
Of course there are rare exceptions. Imagine two bidders enter nuclear snipes at GC because they just wanna win... But the average will go the other way.
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it.
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. **Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it. **
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
LOL, this is rich....
I love how you think you can just paint this picture of me while leaving out the pertinent details of all the insulting and critical things you said in multiple threads....why dont we take a look at them? Oh wait, you deleted all the evidence and we're all supposed to just take your (brand new anonymous member with a private profile) word for it 🙄....and even if you didnt delete everything, your private profile (which is a feature that should be disabled, imo) wouldn't even allow us to look at them if we wanted to.
The only name i've ever called you was a "troll", and if you have been here for any length of time, you'd understand why that is an extremely reasonable and likely assumption based on your posts. And to think I was just starting to consider that maybe you werent here to cause trouble...I really need to stop doubting my gut instincts. My offer to call the "waa-mbulance" still stands in case you need it! 😂
@spacehayduke said:
And further, with respect to the claim that GC auctions don’t always bring the max value of the coin in their auctions, this is likely incorrect. With HA auctions, that have a proxy bid, I find the coins I am interested in go for less proportionally than the coins I am interested at GC, no proxy bid. But in reality, it simply depends on the coin and its quality. Great coins result in aggressive bids and higher auction results than average coins for the grade. Just take a look at the results for the Palos Verdes bust dimes at GC a few weeks ago. I bid on 10, none of which settled at retail pricing, all of which went for much more. And no proxy bids, what is up with that? It is the coin, not the auction format, that matters.
It's difficult when people make comments like yours to know if the prices take into account the buyer premiums. Please clarify. I would expect coins as HA to sell for about 10% less than GC because of the BP difference, I'd be curious to see data on that.
There are also generalities that apply to common coins vs once-a-year or once-every-few-year type rare coins or plain unique items. It cannot be disputed that a hard close prevents any kind of irrational spontaneous bid-until-I-win scenarios from going to full fruition. It also prevents people from going "just one increment higher" than they had planned to. Many of us last minute bidders enter what we think is our highest bid in the last few seconds, but reality is often that after we lose by 1 increment or less, we realize we would have been willing to pay "just a little more" but when you snipe you kind of just have to pick a number and go with it. Hard closes do not allow complete price discovery because the end of bidding is artificially established and is not necessarily the most the buyers are willing to pay.
So yes, without a doubt, hard closes leads to lower prices.
All prices include BP because all auction sites show the total price in their posted prices realized.
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. **Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it. **
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
LOL, this is rich....
I love how you think you can just paint this picture of me while leaving out the pertinent details of all the insulting and critical things you said in multiple threads....why dont we take a look at them? Oh wait, you deleted all the evidence and we're all supposed to just take your (brand new anonymous member with a private profile) word for it 🙄....and even if you didnt delete everything, your private profile (which is a feature that should be disabled, imo) wouldn't even allow us to look at them if we wanted to.
The only name i've ever called you was a "troll", and if you have been here for any length of time, you'd understand why that is an extremely reasonable and likely assumption based on your posts. And to think I was just starting to consider that maybe you werent here to cause trouble...I really need to stop doubting my gut instincts. My offer to call the "waa-mbulance" still stands in case you need it! 😂
At the risk of stepping into the line of fire, you do seem more reactive lately. Is everything okay?
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. **Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it. **
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
LOL, this is rich....
I love how you think you can just paint this picture of me while leaving out the pertinent details of all the insulting and critical things you said in multiple threads....why dont we take a look at them? Oh wait, you deleted all the evidence and we're all supposed to just take your (brand new anonymous member with a private profile) word for it 🙄....and even if you didnt delete everything, your private profile (which is a feature that should be disabled, imo) wouldn't even allow us to look at them if we wanted to.
The only name i've ever called you was a "troll", and if you have been here for any length of time, you'd understand why that is an extremely reasonable and likely assumption based on your posts. And to think I was just starting to consider that maybe you werent here to cause trouble...I really need to stop doubting my gut instincts. My offer to call the "waa-mbulance" still stands in case you need it! 😂
At the risk of stepping into the line of fire, you do seem more reactive lately. It's everything okay?
Nation and world are on edge. Forum is a reflection of that. Just got to keep it moderator friendly.
I put up a proxy bid, but since it was tied with the flood bid, I didn't get the lot. So be it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. **Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it. **
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
LOL, this is rich....
I love how you think you can just paint this picture of me while leaving out the pertinent details of all the insulting and critical things you said in multiple threads....why dont we take a look at them? Oh wait, you deleted all the evidence and we're all supposed to just take your (brand new anonymous member with a private profile) word for it 🙄....and even if you didnt delete everything, your private profile (which is a feature that should be disabled, imo) wouldn't even allow us to look at them if we wanted to.
The only name i've ever called you was a "troll", and if you have been here for any length of time, you'd understand why that is an extremely reasonable and likely assumption based on your posts. And to think I was just starting to consider that maybe you werent here to cause trouble...I really need to stop doubting my gut instincts. My offer to call the "waa-mbulance" still stands in case you need it! 😂
At the risk of stepping into the line of fire, you do seem more reactive lately. Is everything okay?
Thank you for asking, that’s very kind of you. I’m not trying to be, it’s just that the member I just replied to has continually tried make me look like a villain since he started to post here.
Honestly, it seems like making the switch from collector to collector/dealer has changed the forum attitudes towards me. Since 2021, I’ve been courteous and polite in addition to trying to help others any way I can. Now I continuously defend myself from accusations of being a “greedy, selfish slimeball dealer who’s mean to people” lol, regardless of my actual intentions.
For sure would spend more money on those if proxy feature like auction sniper. That beats trying be there in final minutes. However - If some rich collector nuke bidding lost cause anyway. Have found bidding on some them can be super deal during the big ANA shows. Many super pickups below bid.
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. **Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it. **
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
LOL, this is rich....
I love how you think you can just paint this picture of me while leaving out the pertinent details of all the insulting and critical things you said in multiple threads....why dont we take a look at them? Oh wait, you deleted all the evidence and we're all supposed to just take your (brand new anonymous member with a private profile) word for it 🙄....and even if you didnt delete everything, your private profile (which is a feature that should be disabled, imo) wouldn't even allow us to look at them if we wanted to.
The only name i've ever called you was a "troll", and if you have been here for any length of time, you'd understand why that is an extremely reasonable and likely assumption based on your posts. And to think I was just starting to consider that maybe you werent here to cause trouble...I really need to stop doubting my gut instincts. My offer to call the "waa-mbulance" still stands in case you need it! 😂
At the risk of stepping into the line of fire, you do seem more reactive lately. Is everything okay?
Thank you for asking, that’s very kind of you. I’m not trying to be, it’s just that the member I just replied to has continually tried make me look like a villain since he started to post here.
Honestly, it seems like making the switch from collector to collector/dealer has changed the forum attitudes towards me. Since 2021, I’ve been courteous and polite in addition to trying to help others any way I can. Now I continuously defend myself from accusations of being a “greedy, selfish slimeball dealer who’s mean to people” lol, regardless of my actual intentions.
I think this thread has been great and I haven't read anything but helpful, well-intentioned and reasonable from Dan. Please don't feel inhibited from contributing because of dissent, your best potential customers probably appreciate the thoughtful posts.
Comments
They both had the opportunity to go as high as they wanted pre “hard close” and he chose not to go high enough. Very different than what you’re suggesting.
Sadly I've fallen for the trick where I sniped with a lower bid than I should have due to lack of bidding/price activity prior to end of auction thinking I would get it for less. That was stupid I know and I think everyone has to learn that lesson at least once the hard way. In any case, it reinforces the theory that hard closes cost consignors money because there have been many auctions I have lost where I would have gone higher had there been more time on the clock.
Understand this completely but said “trick” was not imposed upon you by the auction house, nor the other bidders. That’s all I’m suggesting.
So, I missed a comment or two? How many comments are there in this thread anyway?
Next time you create a thread like this, should I PM you with my post/question before I post it, in case I missed any post that may have addressed it? I'd be happy to do that.
As someone who claims they were misunderstood, starting with the OP and discussion with Ian, funny how you respond to my post like that. Particularly since I don't believe I've ever posted a reply to any of your posts before. None that I can recall.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Reality though is, many bidders don't want to lose an auction, especially by a low increment. So they will bid above the preset number while in the heat of the sale. All I know is...if people are applauding at the end, you don't want to be the winner.
This means you did not place your true max bid, given that you were actually willing to pay more for it.
It was your mistake, not the structure of a hard close, which cost the seller money and
possibly stopped you from being the high bidder (impossible to know, perhaps the other person's max bid was higher than your true max).
With a snipe, you should not be afraid to bid your true max.
You should use the mindset of calculating your true max, and use it in a way where it can't be revealed.
Don't simply react to what other people happen to be bidding - that is dangerous ground.
Now I’m following the logic, before I just wasn’t sure what he meant by “morphing” to late bids. Many savvy dealers and collectors have always tried to avoid disclosing their max for as long as possible.
Whether some choose to do that, or not, the fact of the matter is that you will pay more in the long run if you just “bid your max and let the chips fall where they may”. It’s human psychology, when you know that someone else is willing to pay a certain price, that makes you feel more comfortable stretching out to win the coin. Sure, it’s definitely easier to it that way, but for a dealer who’s trying to turn a profit, having to pay 5% more can seriously affect the bottom line. Specialty dealers who make markets in their area of expertise also would also prefer not to put their knowledge of a coins value into someone else’s database either.
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Question for you Dan. The coin that you missed bidding on, which was the catalyst of this thread, what was the approximate value?
I had it at about 9k-9500 retail and It sold for 7250 all in. I would have paid 8250 for it.
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While the bidder did make a mistake in not entering their true max, they were not afforded a chance to correct the mistake as they would be able to do with a soft close format. Both factors caused the seller to realize a lower sale price.
I'll go a step further. A soft close format also fosters bidding wars, a phenomenon when two or more bidders abandon rationale thought and bid more than they plan to, which also benefits sellers.
Why didn’t you just put in a bid for it in advance rather than make up this thread to complain about GC auction format? You knew the GC auction format going in, if you really wanted it, you could have complied with their format. Alternatively, if you don’t like their way of running auctions, discuss it directly with them. Obviously a private discussion with them would be more constructive and would not place them in the difficult position you have done in this thread. Just sayin’. Sheesh.
SH, Im not sure how many times I have to repeat myself, but I know that you're reading comprehension is not poor. This wasnt a thread to complain, Im both a buyer and a consigner and I have the right to ask the forum about their bidding habits if I think the insight can help me with my decision making process re consignments in the future. I did ask Ian directly, and I understand the "why" behind not allowing it. Ian is a sharp businessman, and I'm sure he 's given plenty of thought to the subject. Many of you in this thread explained that you wouldn't use GC as much if there was a proxy feature, so based on that alone, why would Ian change it? I'll continue to consign there, and I'll continue to buy there, but I learned that some coins arent meant for every venue.
I changed the title of the thread, forget about GC. What If wanted to start my own auction house, and I was gathering feedback so that I know which format I want to use?
"You knew the GC auction format going in, if you really wanted it, you could have complied with their format."
Again with the "If you really wanted it" argument 🙄
It was a coin for inventory, It's not for my collection and I dont have an emotional attachment to it, it's "product" that I forgot about. Would I forget about a pioneer coin for my collection? NO. If you never forget anything, good on you. I was blessed with several talents, but memory isnt one of them.
As for the "Why not just bid early?" - Scroll up 4 replies ago, I've explained why I and many others don't want to-
That's fine if YOU want to just put your max in and let it rock, I wont do that for reasons I have now explained a number of times. I'm not going to criticize your bidding preferences, I don't know why you insist on criticizing mine. If you don't want to contribute to the conceptual discussion about bidding habits, then you dont have to open the thread. Just sayin'. Sheesh.
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Taking all of the implications into consideration, it sounds as if a hard close auction puts consignors at a terrible disadvantage. Coincidentally, it's been an inside joke among our circle of dealers that we haven't been able to buy diddly squat on GC for the past couple years. I remember in 2020-2021 I was able to buy at reasonable levels, but from 2022-2023 it seemed like GC APR's were the highest among all of them. Many dealers continued to buy from HA and Stacks, but a lot of us almost stopped paying attention to GC entirely because everything sold for retail to retail +.
A possible explanation for this is that GC was way more popular among collectors and hobbyists (similar to ebay), and the exceptional level of collector and hobbyist participation negated the buyer-centric principles of a hard close auction. Perhaps a market downturn disproportionately affects those same collectors/hobbyists, but yet all of the dealers remain active on the other auction houses? Maybe, now that the pundulum has swung back, all of use dealers all have to start paying attention on Sunday night again so we dont miss all of these buying opportunities? 😅
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I suppose error correction has some value.
But it would include bid retraction, if a person bid too high in error.
So error correction could yield a higher or lower sale price.
And there will be some errors that the bidder did not notice until after the sale closed,
so not all errors are correctable by simply having a soft close.
True.
Although then the winning bidder might be out of money, or might feel bad about being buried in that lot,
and might bid less on later lots and in future auctions. The potential significance depends on many factors.
Apologies if this has already been suggested, but I would think one could have a system where a proxy could be submitted only during the last 24 hours. It would both encourage early bidding and allow people who might be otherwise occupied to not have to worry about being around at the close or showing their hand earlier than they want.
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I’m pretty sure that’s how Stack’s does their proxy. Not sure about HA.
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While my comment was mildly facetious, I didn't insult or attack you. I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two". There were approximately 4 different member comments that suggested to "just bid my max and live with it" (not counting the 6th, after yours lol) , and at least 4-5 counter comments explaining why that is not an ideal strategy. Basically the entire discussion is based upon that reasoning. Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting?
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You read to deeply into that, he didnt mean to literally make a correction as in typo or fat fingered bid. He meant it in the way that the "mistake" was not entering the max from the part, and the "correction" is having more time to go even higher with his bid via soft close time extension.
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I always bid early bc we have activities in the SH household on Sunday evenings. So I bid what I will pay for the coin in advance. Showing my hand? Well yes, if someone wants to bid more, go for it, no worries and the power to them. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. So no, don’t need a proxy although others might……………
Well spoken - set it and forget it. I've been doing a more of this lately and I'm getting used to it. If there's something I absolutely have to have then I will make a point of being there when it ends. I guess I must be mellowing in my old age...
We can be cordial while in disagreement.
The point I was trying to make is if the auction had a soft closing I would have bid hire and the seller and eBay would have netted more money. Of course if I had placed a high bid I might have won the auction.
Thank you, I think that second point is important.
This is why it is important that the auction is structured so that you have the full incentive to bid your true max.
Then you can just put the sealed bid out there any time and check at the end to see if you were the high bidder.
If the auction is not a sealed bid / second highest or snipe, then you have to work with the mechanics of the auction to keep sending out incremental bids to protect the confidentiality of your true max.
Yes, I can. How many comments in the thread? Missing a few handfuls is a crime?
LOL
Sorry, but no matter how people have commented about you, I don't think I would/will be a customer for you. Sounds like you don't like me and I don't like your style with your replies, so I don't want to have that experience.
There are dealers who handle things much better.
Thanks for basically calling me a liar in your reply though
"I found it hard to believe that you could have possibly read, or even skimmed through the thread because you would have had to have missed much more than "a comment or two".
"Can you really blame me for assuming that you didn't bother to read the comments before commenting? "
You are allowed to make facetious comments, and basically call someone a liar because you find it "hard to believe", but if people made assumptions on your comment(s), you were upset? Got it. Very reasonable and non-hypocritical, right?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
My coin exile is coming to a close. About to check out the GC Sunday offerings.
We need a numismatic 12 step forum.
Alrighty then….you do you. I wasn’t asking for your business (and based on this exchange, I doubt that I want it) , I didn’t call you a liar, and I don’t see where I sounded “upset.” I said I “found” it hard to believe” (past tense, as in at the time of my first comment to you).
I thought about quoting all of the comments and that you must have “missed”, but that would have put us well into the 7th page of the discussion….
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We certainly can, but even even cordiality can’t overcome hypersensitivity or poor reading comprehension…
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Bottom line, you did not bid on a coin at GC and now you are complaining about it because you don’t like their auction format. Seriously, discuss it privately with Ian, I suspect you could make a convincing argument to have him consider a change, but calling GC out here on the boards is NOT the way to do it. If someone called me out publicly on how I run my buisness, I would ignore them.
And frankly I don’t see a problem with or without a proxy bid. I bid what I am willing to pay. If I don’t want to be there at the close, I bid prior to the close. It is not that hard. I win some, I lose some, I bid what I believe I want to pay. Not rocket science.
And further, with respect to the claim that GC auctions don’t always bring the max value of the coin in their auctions, this is likely incorrect. With HA auctions, that have a proxy bid, I find the coins I am interested in go for less proportionally than the coins I am interested at GC, no proxy bid. But in reality, it simply depends on the coin and its quality. Great coins result in aggressive bids and higher auction results than average coins for the grade. Just take a look at the results for the Palos Verdes bust dimes at GC a few weeks ago. I bid on 10, none of which settled at retail pricing, all of which went for much more. And no proxy bids, what is up with that? It is the coin, not the auction format, that matters.
"We pride ourselves on our customer relationships and satisfaction"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It's difficult when people make comments like yours to know if the prices take into account the buyer premiums. Please clarify. I would expect coins as HA to sell for about 10% less than GC because of the BP difference, I'd be curious to see data on that.
There are also generalities that apply to common coins vs once-a-year or once-every-few-year type rare coins or plain unique items. It cannot be disputed that a hard close prevents any kind of irrational spontaneous bid-until-I-win scenarios from going to full fruition. It also prevents people from going "just one increment higher" than they had planned to. Many of us last minute bidders enter what we think is our highest bid in the last few seconds, but reality is often that after we lose by 1 increment or less, we realize we would have been willing to pay "just a little more" but when you snipe you kind of just have to pick a number and go with it. Hard closes do not allow complete price discovery because the end of bidding is artificially established and is not necessarily the most the buyers are willing to pay.
So yes, without a doubt, hard closes leads to lower prices.
Whole lotta nonsense gibberish in this thread. I just want to win the coin at a price I feel is below what it is worth, or what I was willing to pay.
But I thought you said you wouldn’t be a customer?
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It still seems like you completely ignored everything I said in my response to you, and just tried to sledgehammer the same points you made on the first page of the thread.
You win SH, I’m done here. Not sure why I bother anymore to start discussions outside the status quo of CAC and mystery boxes, shame on me.
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I believe that most here are referring to realized (or all in price.) Hammer is the closing price before the 10 or 20% vigorish is figured in.
Here is my take on auctions, proxy, hard close, dealers and the end result of buying a coin. I have been primarily a collector for over 50-years but have worked in a coin shop and have had years here and there where I was a vest pocket dealer. Like any collectable there are times when demand is higher than supply and visa versa.
I have found over the years that it is much easier to buy coins at resonable prices in auction during "down" trends when dealers and collectors are strapped for money, no matter what type of auction close. You can find deals! During better and more competitive times, I tend to find better values and buy more coins from well established dealers. Well established dealers do have more sources such as collectors selling back, collections walking into their shops, relationships and simply their knowledge of the business and accurate price points.
Dealers should have to do the work no matter if the auction is a hard close or proxy. I think it is good that the different auction platforms have different bidding systems. This is called competition and keeps the market healthy.
Collectors have the advantage of knowing what they are willing to pay, place the bid, and win or lose. They are not looking for an immediate profit.
I personally buy and sell on GC. I generally only buy on HA and Stacks if I can pickup something very special.
As a seller I would use GC or a dealer, as many dealers (if you have very good, liquid inventory) will work on GC type of margins.
So to answer the question posted "Would you spend more money in hard close auctions if there was a "proxy" feature?"
The answer is no.
I agree with Proof and Peak.
Heritage offers every bid type under the sun: Internet, Proxy, Live, Floor, Phone, and Protection.
Why does Heritage do this? Well, Heritage is often credited with the highest price realizations as well, especially on rare and unique items.
If you take away bid types that match a buyer's strategy or persona, you will miss bids sometimes and get lower prices on average.
Of course there are rare exceptions. Imagine two bidders enter nuclear snipes at GC because they just wanna win... But the average will go the other way.
I won't. I just wanted to make sure I made the right decision and I did.
Thanks.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
He went easy on you. When I disagreed with him on some CAC thread, he launched a multiple post barrage, ..... starting with a reference to the fictional character Omar, from the Showtime crime drama The Wire...... something about if you come for him, you better not miss. Said I acting the part of a feeble boomer, clutching pearls, he would call an ambulance for feeble me etc. Deleted all my posts from that thread--didn't want to be associated with it.
Going personal, name calling stuff is off putting.
LOL, this is rich....
I love how you think you can just paint this picture of me while leaving out the pertinent details of all the insulting and critical things you said in multiple threads....why dont we take a look at them? Oh wait, you deleted all the evidence and we're all supposed to just take your (brand new anonymous member with a private profile) word for it 🙄....and even if you didnt delete everything, your private profile (which is a feature that should be disabled, imo) wouldn't even allow us to look at them if we wanted to.
The only name i've ever called you was a "troll", and if you have been here for any length of time, you'd understand why that is an extremely reasonable and likely assumption based on your posts. And to think I was just starting to consider that maybe you werent here to cause trouble...I really need to stop doubting my gut instincts. My offer to call the "waa-mbulance" still stands in case you need it! 😂
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All prices include BP because all auction sites show the total price in their posted prices realized.
At the risk of stepping into the line of fire, you do seem more reactive lately. Is everything okay?
Nation and world are on edge. Forum is a reflection of that. Just got to keep it moderator friendly.
I just lost out on proxy.
I put up a proxy bid, but since it was tied with the flood bid, I didn't get the lot. So be it.
Thank you for asking, that’s very kind of you. I’m not trying to be, it’s just that the member I just replied to has continually tried make me look like a villain since he started to post here.
Honestly, it seems like making the switch from collector to collector/dealer has changed the forum attitudes towards me. Since 2021, I’ve been courteous and polite in addition to trying to help others any way I can. Now I continuously defend myself from accusations of being a “greedy, selfish slimeball dealer who’s mean to people” lol, regardless of my actual intentions.
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$2700 bid on a Morgan just got snapped. Even after I rebid
Don't want it, don't need it, can't have it.
Well maybe I'll check it out tomorrow.
I hate coins.
Lol. Link?
Here ya go. the $2700 included the juice. Coin may end at double that in the CAC holder.
Had one in a PCGS 66+ but sold it to a registry guy.
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1655160/1879-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-CACG-MS-66-Toned
In summary after reviewing more of thread:
For sure would spend more money on those if proxy feature like auction sniper. That beats trying be there in final minutes. However - If some rich collector nuke bidding lost cause anyway. Have found bidding on some them can be super deal during the big ANA shows. Many super pickups below bid.
I think this thread has been great and I haven't read anything but helpful, well-intentioned and reasonable from Dan. Please don't feel inhibited from contributing because of dissent, your best potential customers probably appreciate the thoughtful posts.